honestly though this has taught me a lot about what good, fair debating looks like (or doesn't). very valuable from that perspective. really admire how you handled this!
Konstantin - targeting any civilian is wrong Saif - why are you saying it's ok to target Palestinian civilians??? This conversation was so frustrating to watch. Saif was deliberately putting words in Konstantin's mouth, repeatedly. I would have walked out in 5 minutes
You don't even need to bring Palestinians into it. Which i wish saif would have pointed out he literally said it's nesscary and justify to use nuclear weapons on japan when a former general and president Eisenhower said it was completely unnecessary and evil, among other generals who said similar things. But we can keep pretending like he actually thinks it's wrong to target civilians.
@@the_future_is_anarchy1791you think the president and a general (who were being heavily scrutinized by the American public when they were asked about these things) voicing regret is somehow a legit argument?
As a huge fan of Saifedean's other work this was greatly disappointing. I hope he doesn't go into anymore interviews so emotionally charged. I came into this feeling very neutral about what's going on, knowing we're lied to by mainstream media and many other media. As a fan of both Saif and Konstantin I thought this would be very enlightening. What I saw from Saif was preconceived notions about who his guest was with no interest in hearing him out or having a good faith argument. Just insults "NPC, Zionist". Even the title of this video is an attack. Huge bummer to see.
You came into this neutral? Have you been living under a rock for the past year? What about the last decade. Saif knows what an unreasonable forked tongue serpent konstantin is. He called him out from the jump.
I share your feelings, having appreciated Saifedean's bitcoin book and Austrian economic perspective. Before this interview, I saw him as a rational, honest thinker. I hope he's humbled enough by the experience to do some rethinking and inner work.
@@forret you need to fill that black hole 🕳️ you have where your brain should be. We see what is going on. The world is awake to the crimes of Isn'tReal the te**or state
If you would like a TLDR Saiifedean: You are a zionist Kisin: What is a zionist? Saiifedean: Someone who wants all of Gazans murdered or gone Kisin: Then I am NOT a zionist Saiifedean: I never said you were a zionist!
Saifadean implies konstantin is biased because of his identity, but it seems pretty clear that saif is very biased, probably because he is Palestinian himself. He cannot see things from the israeli perspective. He cherry picks data which supports his view and ignores data which conflicts with it. Possibly he's been taught to hate Israel from a young age, so his mental models on the topic are so well established that there is no room for any conflicting evidence to get through into his brain which is sad.
@@ashdrakedby other Arab nations (Egypt, Jordan) telling them to leave until they eliminate Israel - in which point they can return. This promise just didn't age well 😂
Every time you tell your opponent that their beliefs are not their own, they are brainwashed, they are an NPC, you are introducing unfalsifiable claims into the conversation and derailing it entirely. This is not how you have a grown up conversation.
Konstantin outed his identity at the 15:00 mark. There was no reason to continue the conversation after that. If you can't spot the bias in de-animating the object of the kidnapping then your mental capacity is too far below the level needed to understand the conversation
@@sFeral get a mirror? It might help you to understand why people laugh at you when you talk. He did no such thing. Saif just proved what a thoroughly racist bigot and coward he is.
LoL 😂😂😂 is,,ra,el is on the brink of civil war.Ben about to be tried on corruption charges and ham,,as decided to save the country and Ben, lol😂😂 ,you all probably think we are all bafoonsæ.its another fal,,se f,l,a,g .with script, make up artists ,camera,and actors. They couldn't fool us all
I know how powerful cognitive dissonance and confirmation bias are and thus there's probably no way for Saifedean to ever learn how poorly and irrationally he behaved here, but man, that was not it.
To make it worse, I'm someone who isn't that informed on this issue and has accordingly held back on having much of a strong opinion either way. I've read The Bitcoin Standard and came here thinking I'd learn something. If Ammous' goal was to win people to his way of thinking, I am an example of him failing to achieve it. If Ammous' position was so strong, he obv wouldn't need to strawman and put words in Kisin's mouth this much. Hard to give him much credit after invalidating his own argument in this way.
If you'd compare cognitive dissonance and confirmation bias to CTE and roid rage, Saif here was the Chris Benoit of cognitive dissonance and confirmation bias.
Saif's point can be reversed. Can easily say Saif is a Palestinian NPC identity politician. Not addressing the evidence. Also I believe Saif had a preconception of what KK was and therefore all KK said was shoehorned and squashed into the preconceived framework of what S believes KK thinks and why
If we're going back in time to redraw borders, how about we go back all the way, and Muslims leave Israel and palestine and also leave occupied Pakistan and go back to Saudi Arabia
lol I recommend you look into the genetic make up of Lebanese, Palestinian, and Ashkenazi…. They all share a majority of their DNA that comes directly from the Phoenicians or Canaanite’s (people in the Levant during the Bronze Age). Yes Palestinians do indeed have more Arab in them than people considered Lebanese or Ashkenazi. But they have about as much Arab as Ashkenazi have Eastern European. So… Oh and if you are an Israeli, this might all be completely new news to you because I know DNA tests are illegal in Israel, but maybe this would be a good time to ask yourself why exactly that is? Current day Israelis acting like they are the rightful heirs of that land is a joke. And the irony that Israelis are literally slaughtering and trying to expel their own brethren is devastating and heartbreaking. Especially cause most of them don’t even know this.
@@courtneytwait3351 you completely misunderstand the problem. The point is that if you try to go back and redraw borders where do you stop ? how far back will you go ?
@@courtneytwait3351 Courtney, you completely missed the point and in your blind hatred started rambling on with your rayycist nonsense The point is that if you try to go back and redraw borders where do you stop ? how far back will you go ?
@@courtneytwait3351 You are conveniently ignoring all the jews that lived in the middle-east, and pretending that they arent the majority of jews living in israel today. Anyone that uses your argument is just a brainwashed npc that only uses talking points input to you by your masters, be they streamers or whatever that brainwashed you.
Saif was hallucinating Kisin's positions. Evidence for the facts of the matter seem to be sparse and weak for both sides. The information sphere is so polluted nowadays its hard to tell what is true and false.
@@patrickbranagan9288 Yeah, it's like a house of mirrors. Anybody trying to catch up on the facts of the matter in the midst of this propaganda storm has a hard swim. People tend to be guided by wishful thinking, which means, practically, by prejudice.
@@josephbradford5930 Well, then others might be able to help! You can put aside propoganda and look at factual ground facts. Look at data, at numbers not stories and rumors. Old fashioned hard research can't fail you. Some of us actually can help provide information that can't be disputed. And it defintely feels like we entred a black mirror era thanks to the woke 😅😂
@@AlyThree3 But, you're the guy who just said that evidence is sparse. You don't sound like the guy who knows where the cheese is hidden. Thanks, but I'm a pretty strong swimmer. 😁
@@josephbradford5930 Dosen't mean I don't think it's possible to find answers when you want to 🤔 are you swimming against the stream or with the stream?
He's already damaged it enough. Appreciate the wealth of knowledge I've learned about economics and Bitcoin from him, but I can no longer support this man. He's disgusting. I've bought multiple copies of his Bitcoin Standard book for friends and family and it was my go-to whenever I wanted someone to learn about Bitcoin. Never again.
It’s the irrational anger and brainwashing people have today about anything they have directly or indirectly experienced all objectivity goes out the window. Basically I experienced it therefore it is, however, I have learnt from my own life that the way we experience things can be drastically different and even wrong to what is fundamentally true. Impressive people turn into mentally ill people.
I agree w the above two sentiments however I’m sure your emotions got the best of both of you at some point in life. Safe still has alot of reasonable logic and philosophy i will listen to when it comes to sound money and austrian economics i wll however not listen to a debate on other topics he has…i also do not listen to his nonsense when it comes to nutrition he sounds foolish. You have to be able to sift through what anyone says to find their gems!!! We all have friends for attributes that we value yet other attributes yr like wtf! 😳
15:00 if you're honest, listen to how he expresses himself there and tell me why he turns "his wife" into an inanimate object when he reverses the situation to the other guys POV?
@@sFeral he doesn’t refer to her as an inanimate object FFS 🤦♂️ He uses someone very near and dear to him as an example of how emotionally someone in this situation might feel.
@@jacobodom8401Surely Konstantin would kidnap the other guys wife, if that were to only way to get his back, no? Notice how neither of the wives are inanimate. His comparison is simply inadequate as Ham doesn't have the means to go in and terminate all IS occ u pation forces, like he does in his little "Taken" movie script
It was the definition of NPC. Konstantin was pressing the "activate dialog" button, and Saifedean just spit out his lines as if Konstantin never said anything at all 😂
@@tylerharless226 K ripped himself apart with that initial comparison, where he immediately made the kidnapped object inanimate when reversing the roles, instead of keeping the "wife for a wife" equation. He probably failed both math and logic at school. Looking smug is all he's good at
@@HungryMoosey evidence 🧾😂. Funny thing is Israel never seems to have evidence for anything yet konstantin seems to always believe them. Stop trying to gaslight, ziionnisttt tricks don't work on me. The world is now awakening to this criminal entity, but I have long know what it is.
Saifedean really looked bad in this debate. Was he implying Konstantin is biased because of his Identity as a Russian, British or Greek? I couldn't figure that out
@@bartz4439 That doesn't mean be a jerk to him when he's there for a good faith discussion. I would argue Saif did more harm that good to his cause here. The only people agreeing are the ones who already had their mind made up. I was excited for an honest discussion, not an emotional attack.
@@bartz4439 he didn't say he had no idea, he says he isn't an expert. And he said he tries not to comment about the conflict because of the lack of expertise. Kisin probably knows more about the history than you do.
no, you will get obliterated if you try to enter a discussion the same way Konstantin did. He destroyed himself at the 15:00 mark. No coming back from there
@@richardjohnston-bell476 K identifies with the perpetrator and de-values the victims object of desire by de-animating it(her/the wife character who is initially supposed to evoke sentiment) when it suits him, which only further illustrates who he identifies with and who he wants de-animated
@@HungryMoosey I think what I wrote, and it's purely an analysis of what he said, not up to debate, which is ironically what Konstantin wants his statements to be yet he has no ground to stand on
@@HungryMoosey it's not my opinion that he said this or that, he's there on video saying it, same as cidal politicians who are not to be taken seriously according to him
Wow this was an absolute slog to get through. Incredible how this man can go around in circles for over an hour and still there is no constructive bridging of perspectives. This encapsulates perfectly why there will likely never be peace in the Middle East.
As a long time subscriber and fan, Saif, I admire your bravery for speaking with someone on this podcast (finally) who doesn’t automatically agree with you. You spent an hour twenty just destroying your own cause. But I admire your bravery.
I’m a huge Saifedean fan. I think he’s brilliant. I’ve read all his books. I love listening to him speak. He’s a master in debate, but he is not at his best here. In my opinion, this issue is so close to home for him that it’s hard for him to not get emotional about it. As a result he was not earnest in trying to understand Konstantin’s perspective or persuade him to think differently. Saif repeatedly misrepresented K’s views and insulted him unnecessarily. It’s unfortunate because I think this could’ve been a productive conversation. Konstantin is not a mindless NPC.
@@derek.seaborn I agree, as a fellow Saif fan, that he wasn't at his cool headed best. He got heated and resorted to short-hand, which is easy to do. Kisin's jugular was exposed thought, and he failed to see it.
@@josephbradford5930 for sure, and it’s totally understandable why that would be the case. I’ve lost no respect for Saif, and I’ll continue to listen to him. So many people form their opinions of people based on their worst moments. This is the least articulate and grounded I’ve ever seen him. It’s not that Saif is wrong; it’s that his emotional connection to the topics clouded his greatest strengths. I predict (and hope) Saif will learn from this experience.
no, Konstantin is disingenuous and his "coolness" doesn't work on everyone, there's nothing to correct, except perhaps finishing the thought about blo w ing up facilities after they're occ u pied
@@sFeral are you Saif? He's a lunatic and bad faith actor. It was a shameless display and KK kept cool despite what a lying POS Saif is. He constantly tripped over himself every time he was asked to provide evidence.
The UN report stated quote: Sexual violence is any sort of harmful or unwanted sexual behavior that is imposed on someone. It includes acts of abusive sexual contact, forced engagement in sexual acts, attempted or completed sexual acts with a woman without her consent (rape), sexual harassment, verbal abuse, threats, exposure, unwanted touching, incest, and others. Obviously you can't read Saif.
Wow Saif, you lost this by a landslide. Most of your 300 comments side with Konstantin. On the trig page most of the 4000 comments side with k. Maybe you should learn how to argue. What a shitshow.
Triggernometry has 20 TIMES as many RUclips subscribers as Saif. RUclips is hardly Saif's main channel of communication. That is all you're seeing. Tons of brigading NPCs.
@@The20thHijacker "I’m a huge Saifedean fan. I think he’s brilliant. I’ve read all his books. I love listening to him speak. He’s a master in debate, but he is not at his best here. In my opinion, this issue is so close to home for him that it’s hard for him to not get emotional about it. As a result he was not earnest in trying to understand Konstantin’s perspective or persuade him to think differently. Saif repeatedly misrepresented K’s views and insulted him unnecessarily. It’s unfortunate because I think this could’ve been a productive conversation. Konstantin is not a mindless NPC." for example, just saiyng..
Dude you didn’t really need to bring him on your podcast if you hated him this much! All you needed was a photo of him and a screenshot of his tweet because you had already made up your mind and didn't seem to listen to anything he said!😂😂
I can't stand it when people think they can magically get inside the head of others to determine what they think and what motivates them. The host of this podcast did this constantly, including putting words in his guests mouth.
Saif was painful on this one. Strawman after strawman. I like Saif and he's right about most of his points, he's just arguing against an idea he made up about what Konstantin believes. Could have been a lot more productive. Not finishing.
Agree with this. I think Saif could’ve engaged without straw men and ad hom. He let KK sound reasonable. Wasted opportunity. Do better Saif! Disappointed because Saif is on the right side here!
@@Sge32 yeah IDK. I think they agree more than the conversation sounded like. Saif is too close to the situation to be reasonable *(fair) but sounds to me like both guys agree civilian deaths are bad, they just both justify their own team taking them on the edges because they disagree about who is a hostage and who is a prisoner (i didn't finish, maybe this was clarified more later) personally I think they are both a little wrong and a little right but I sympathize more with Saifs position because of the history of propaganda surrounding that area of the world.
@@Sge32 I tuned in to try to figure it out as I love other work by Saif, but this was such a turn off and hugely disappointing. I found myself neutral in the beginning, by the end I am so disappointed by Saif's emotional interview void of any good faith.
It was sad to feel how Konstantin seems to be really disappointed. Like he was expecting to have been invited to a civilized conversation. We have all seen how Saif has played the whole thing. It also seemed, specially at the end, that Konstantin could have completely decimated but looked to have held back because that is not what he came for.
Bro I been following you for a min on other platforms and this made you lose every ounce of credibility you’ve built up. Absolutely unhinged and are playing into stereotypes that Palestinians will never come to the table for peace.
This entire conversation about the IDF rescuing hostages and killing people in the process is so dumb lol. First of all, they went to rescue hostages and Hamas started firing RPGs in the middle of a residential area. It was only then that the IDF started responding. It was kill or be killed. But, if you remember, people like Saifedean were also the ones saying that Israel should not go to war but should instead do 'targeted attacks'. They tried targeted attacks in this case, even going covertly etc, and THIS was the outcome. And the goalpost moved yet again ..
SA. You grow up in a Fatah occupation not Israeli . Hamas was legally got elected in Gaza in 2006 so it's a legitimate government of Gaza. Why does Israelis need to feed their enemies? You forgot the other border with Egypt
You're a NPC with a very basic understanding of this conflict. You know Hamas was barely elected by a slim majority in 2006, when the voting age was 18 and you'd have to have been at least 35 to 36 years old today to have voted in that election, and that makes up less than half of their population, of which almost half of that voting age who voted did not vote for Hamas, so you're talking about a current-day minority of people who voted for Hamas. It also doesn't help when Hamas is funded and supported by Israelis. From what Netanyahu said, "We control the height of the flames." This was their strategy from the beginning, they are aiming for no partner for peace so they can say, Look what we have to deal with; they don't want peace. Also, why does Isreal stop them from having any kind of port or trade partner or allow them to have their own source of water supply that they don't directly control? The majority of people don't say they have to feed them, but why are they refusing them aid from foreign countries? Why are they preventing them from building their own infrastructure to be self-sufficient? Why is the Israeli government stealing land from Palestinians in the West Bank? Why are they trying to push off the gazans to other countries with worse Infrastructure that can only take in a few migrants due to resource constants Why do they have multiple laws on the books that restrict Muslim and Palestinian residence of both the West Bank and those who still reside in Israel? Why are there Jewish only roads and settlements of previously owned and constructed housing form Palestinians? A lot of those houses were constructed before the state of Israel even existed. Why is there property rights invalidated when the property it's self was in the previous owners possession before the Isreal state existed and without there efforts they're wouldn't be a house to steal if they hadn't built the house and maintained the property.
@@adamm3611 oh wow you got me jews aren't allowed in area A lol but forget all the other heinous things Isreal does to Palestinians that i mentioned. Its also plenty of UN reports saying the majority of Gaza is Undernourished having all most 60% of the population consuming less than 2000 calories a day. But yeah some aid trucks sure aren't being prevented from giving aid to gazans from isreali protesters who are protected by idf soldiers. I love that you guys are always focusing on specifics of things that don't matter but gloss over all the other Heinous things happening forget about homes being stolen or children being shoot in the street on video tapes or drones targeting innocent civilians forget about all that you didn't mentions jews aren't allow in area A lol is that the best defense you got for an Apartheid state
@@the_future_is_anarchy1791 i know everything about the conflict. You grow up in a terrorist corrupt organization area if it's ramallah that pays around 3000 to 10k per Jew . Jenin is probably the worst but ramallah surely meets the criteria. You probably left from there in a young age or you just lying not to get in hot waters
Meanwhile anyone on MSM, pro-hamas, institutions, goverment etc as long as anyone is pro-established rule they arent even sued for calling for actual genocide (''river to the sea'') or while constantly lying and denying reality.
@@giltuito1545 That is a life-destroying figure that he will never come close to paying a fraction of. He will be a slave to it until he's dead. Which was the whole point setting it that high. He may have slipped through the criminal system, but the judge presiding the civil case was determined to make up for it.
@@giltuito1545 so making money off dead children will ease the pain? Very telling of what kind of people would do that kind of thing for money .. how does that help the cause? So there’s people out here forcing others to believe them? Or get sued? Is that democracy?
What worries me about this conversation, is that Saifdean is actually a well educated, successful and intelligent person, but when discussing this subject, he gets completely illogical, becomes removed from the dialogue and becomes very hostile at what he imagines Konstantin to be, and his mind cannot get out of that trench no matter how many times this is calmly and reasonably explained to him. Now, imagine a whole crowd of people like that together out on the street all egging each other on, then, imagine a whole crowd of people like that who see an orthodox Jewish person or family, or an Israeli student, what will they think that those people "probably think" or who they "probably support. What will they do? What will their reaction to those people or that family be? Very, very dangerous
The last bit is so cringe!!! Poor Saif got himself twisted into a pretzel trying to avoid exposing himself for as an antisemite… 😅 poor thing doesn’t have the balls to say it out right. What a spineless weasel…
He didn't nail it at all! In fact he sounded like a petulant know it all, trying to pin Saif with an antisemitism charge in a way that was totally intellectually dishonest. And anyway Saif was right, his identity as anyone who is from the West, consumes western media, speaks to other western people, and is entirely dependent on the western media for his lifestyle and position in society is clearly going to be biased towards the group that his identity most aligns with, because it's in his best interests, and it's what he knows. As Saif said, his identity means he views everything through a lens where it's ok for one side to do a certain action, but not the other.
@@alembic1105 Saif never really emphasized “Western Identity” though. He claimed that KK was biased due to his identity but refused to elaborate which aspect of KK’s identity. Saif cannot just say that someone is “identity biased” just because someone disagrees with his position. Then he say he doesn’t know which identity. He clearly has a very strong idea as to what it is, but he won’t say it, in fear of his prejudice being exposed. He insinuated many times, from the very start, that KK is a racist but he had no evidence to back up this accusation.
This video introduced me to Saifedean, I had not seen him before. Talk about an NPC. He can't see past the prejudices he's been programmed to have. What a stark contrast between these two.
This was clearly bad. I'm more of SA fan than KK fan. KK gets some serious points for how he conducted himself, SA loses some serious points for how he conducted himself. This is deeply personal for SA. He got overly emotional. He is only human. This doesn't invalidate his other work or his genius. We should be honest about his failure here, he should take some time to reflect on his behavior, and let's continue to appreciate both of these brilliant and virtuous (and flawed) people. You can be a warrior for love and truth without descending into blind rage. SA made that mistake. Let us not repeat it.
While I agree that Saif was overly emotional and put false words into KK’s mouth, I don’t understand how can KK think that IDF causing collateral victims (more than Hamas ever did, even considering they did it intentionally) is justified. This is also the main point of the debate. KK said multiple times that this is justified. On this main point Saif is right (that neither side’s killings is justified). The moment KK said the losses of life caused by IDF are justified, the debate was over. However, Saif kept insulting him and insisting on this when he should have just call it a day.
Ethnic cleansing definition - The mass expulsion or killing of members of one ethnic or religious group in an area by those of another. Approx Gazan Palestinian population has grown from 1.3m in 2000 - 2.3m in 2024 Approx 1.6 million Muslims living in Israel in 2024 with a decent amount identifying as Palestinian Arabs. Even with rough numbers the claim of ethnic cleansing Gazan Palestinians is statistically incorrect. This may change. The Jewish population in neighboring countries illustrate the maths of what ethnic cleansing would look like. Approx Jewish population in 1950 - Lebanon 25000, Egypt 80000, Syria 30000 Approx Jewish population in 2024 - Lebanon 80, Egypt 15, Syria 20
It was painful for me to see Konstantin Kisin talk down to my fav economist. Even more painful to see Saifdean putting his fingers in hears ears and go "na na na na naaaaaa"
I'm new to Konstantin as well. I read Saif's books on Bitcoin and really liked him, but he started to lose me with his Obsession on Israel. I have given him the benefit of the doubt, but he has these conversations in bad faith, never looking to have constructive dialog. It seems his agenda used to be Bitcoin, but has shifted to try to sway people that Israel is illegitimate.
Claiming that all/the majority of 7.10 victims were killed by the IPF is some serious denial of very blattant facts, many of which were well documented by the Hawas fighters themselves. This does not go with your usual calm observation of facts, and puts into question everything else you have to say on the topic. As you are from the area, we understand this is an emotional topic for you, but this discussion and the video title are not fair at all for your guest.
This was an hour plus of straw manning and really hard to watch Saif here. I think he did a better job on TFTC with Marty Bent by boiling this down to property rights. I understand what Konstantin was trying to get at by the end with the identity politics thing and perhaps it's true but will give Saif the benefit of the doubt as he could've thrown that out as a general criticism trying to draw a parallel to Konstantis work
A very one sided history lesson there. Arab colonialists (Not Muslim conquerors) did not allow Jews to return. Jews were already there and have always been there. And Palestine? Dude, Every single historical account mentioning a Palestinian is actually referring to a Jew. Arabs haven't been called Palestinian any more than 70yrs...And you grew up in Ramallah? So did the green prince and he has a very different account to you.
The most disingenuous "debate" I've possibly ever seen. Stick to bitcoin shill your attempt to branch out into world affairs is going to fail miserably.
At this point, it's clear to me that neither an Israeli nor a Palestinian can speak on this subject with any clarity whatsoever. They are just too close to it and it leads to Saifedean Ammous coming off as he does in this interview. Saifedean, I don't care to tell you that you are right or wrong, but you gotta know that you aren't gonna convince anyone watching this with curious eyes, trying to understand the truth, that your position is correct. Gotta change your tact or pack it in and stick with Bitcoin, dude.
@@brettpid6416 Fair, however after I came to be aware that Israel is having a society-wide debate about the legitimacy of raping Palestinian inmates, I felt disillusioned. I guess if an Israeli made a statement up front that they detest the practice and detest large swaths of their society for even debating it, I would continue listening.
@@ryanjacobs5253 What sources did you use? The debate wasnt about rape, it was about physical torture of any extent. Which given just how horrendous the crimes of these people (the ones that were put in prison) are, is quite understandable. You dont know what happened on october 7th. If you did, you would understand that not everyone is capable of showing restraint. Personally I dont know why they even take prisoners.
@@ali-yp3yw Ad hominem should never be used as an argument in a civilized debate, at least not if you want to keep it civil and the attention focused on the topic. There were a lot of distractions in the conversation and alot of useless back on forth because the guest was feeling attacked. I mean I get the frustration Saif was experiencing, and honestly I've found myself feeling very similar talking to people close to me, and haven't carried myself as I would like to have many times either. So I'm not saying I'm better than that, in fact I'm probably alot worse.
@@LoloLovesLifeglad someone else said it. I wish Saif had come with a bit more research of recent statements and quotes for them to discuss rather than making blanketed statements and attacks. It lead to the discussion being muddled and lost instead of the obvious attempt of Saif to get Kis to change his mind
Kind of agree here. Seems saif thought he was just going to publicly spank him for an hour but had trouble pinning him on his inconsistencies. The ad hom attacks helped KK move off the pertinent points. Still think Saif is right but KK kind of “won” because Saif was not prepared IMO
@Saifedean Ammous Hi again, Saifedean. In addition to my other comment regarding your false claim about Zionism and terrorism - I would like to take this opportunity and mention another false claim of yours: I'm talking about your debate with Yaron Brook, where you claimed that Zionists are behind the U.S. joining WW2. This is obviously false, since the US declared war on Japan after the attack on Pearl- Harbor, and then Hitler declared war on the U.S, and not the other was around. so yeah... that's another false claim that you made regarding Zionism, hence it would be appropriate of you to publish a correction.
I actually came from trigonometry to see how the people this guy talks to behave because he gave the impression of being smart but what I saw is the dumbest point on this hamas/isreali war. At least most of his audience notice how dumb his position is.
Historians and journalists have rightly and consistently - until the current aberrant trend for distorting English language usage - always named any conflict with the initiator of the conflict, i.e the firer of the first shot, first. This is the Hamas-Israel war. Israel was not in Gaza before October 7 last year. Hamas came into Israel. Those are indisputable historical facts. They are not opinion. That is reality no matter how ideologically unpleasant that it seem. Currently we also have the Russia-Ukraine war, no matter how ideologically unpleasant that might seem to some. Focus on real issues, not attempts to distort accurate terminology.
Guys like that should be engaged in written form. That way it is clear what the disingenuous person said and didn't say and they can't deceive and lie their way out of their own fallacies and inconsistencies as easily.
I watched this in Konstatin channel and came here to see if I was the only one who thought Saifedean completely botched this conversation. The comments here show I'm not alone.
Perfect conversation to master techniques on how to debate, how to win an argument, how to handle interruptions, etc … between adversarial positions. Besides that, I see a lot of projection on SD side: accusations of being an NPC, biased views, prejudices … all that are present on Saifedean and erode his credibility. I’m overall satisfied with the hour spent cause I learnt stuff, more on the formality of debating, than in the substance of this complex topic. Not a good look on Saifedean this time, too emotional.
Saif might not realize it but his actions are only causing more unnecessary death. One side has all the power…and the other side invaded. Sorry but when you start a war there are consequences when you lose…if you win not a lot of long term consequences…that’s reality. The Gazan people have already lost and are moving towards not existing soon…only because of poor choices they made. The more they resist the more they end up becoming a forgotten group. The only chance they have is to work with the IDF against Hamas…other than that…bye…unfortunately that is the reality. Even countries who claim to support Gaza like Turkey, Saudi, Jordan, UAE, ect…they provide arms and funding to Israeli…I know becuase working for the US Army I see why logistics they transfer to Israeli. Gaza has zero chance, Lebanon, and Yemen…that is reality. Iran will also tumble soon. Either through a war with Harris or economically through Trump(I prefer his over war).
Saifdean...I'd love to hear a discussion between you and Rudy Rochman who has conversations like this one, with the sole purpose of uniting Arabs and Jews rather than continue this endless conflict...I think it is a conversation completely worth having since you both are knowledgeable historically and can dig into the deeper details in a way that is not possible for someone who doesn't live there and doesn't fully understand the history.
Saifedean, so which part of his identity bothers you so much? To put it simply: Who is he to you? Who do you think he is? You've got good arguments perhaps at some points, but you failed to answer his question about his identity. Answer that, and you will see WHO you are and what YOUR identity is.
Saif can never lose bias on the topic and as an Israeli I don’t bloody blame him. That does not make 100% of what he says right because at least 50% is bs
Konstantin handled himself with respect, curiosity, humbleness and amazing moral character while the other guy seem to be emotionally attached to his side of the argument that seems to be willinful blind and is more interesting in making false claims about Konstantin just to win the argument.
It's a shame cause, as a non-expert in economics, I felt like I was learning a lot from Saifedean's books about bitcoin and the economy. If he is ideologically possessed on this topic, it makes me wonder about his integrity re: topics related to econ. Hopefully it's just the Palestinian identity playing a role in this case.
I was shocked to learn after listening to this "debate" that Saifedean Ammous has a PhD. His performance in this discussion certainly didn't suggest that level of education.
Wow, that was embarrassing for you Saifedean….. Konstantin was extremely calm and patient in the face of your hysteria and borderline abusive behaviour
Hamas did primarily target the IDF. Half of the people killed on 7 October were IDF. Half of the civilians that were killed were killed by the IDF in accordance with the Hannibal Directive. The Israeli government forbids the discussion of the Hannibal Directive in the press in order to cover up the fact that a huge portion of the civilians murdered on 7 October were killed by the IDF.
![Gucci Mane & Sexyy Red - You Don't Love Me [Official Music Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/j7IBqyFKT4c/mqdefault.jpg)
Thank you for having me on the show. It's a pleasure reading all the great feedback from your audience.
haha ive just come from your tweet to see them
honestly though this has taught me a lot about what good, fair debating looks like (or doesn't). very valuable from that perspective. really admire how you handled this!
Nicely done, KK. A lot of patience went into that one.
Your patience is commendable and impressive. Well done.
TAKE A BOW KONSTANIN, TAKE A BOW 👏🏻🙌🏻❤️
Konstantin - targeting any civilian is wrong
Saif - why are you saying it's ok to target Palestinian civilians???
This conversation was so frustrating to watch. Saif was deliberately putting words in Konstantin's mouth, repeatedly. I would have walked out in 5 minutes
@@BahubaliSamraat No, he was characterizing the comments Kissin has made over time. Sad you can’t understand the difference.
@@debbiebeatty8449 He was characterizing comments that werent even made by him.
@@debbiebeatty8449what comments?
You don't even need to bring Palestinians into it. Which i wish saif would have pointed out he literally said it's nesscary and justify to use nuclear weapons on japan when a former general and president Eisenhower said it was completely unnecessary and evil, among other generals who said similar things. But we can keep pretending like he actually thinks it's wrong to target civilians.
@@the_future_is_anarchy1791you think the president and a general (who were being heavily scrutinized by the American public when they were asked about these things) voicing regret is somehow a legit argument?
As a huge fan of Saifedean's other work this was greatly disappointing. I hope he doesn't go into anymore interviews so emotionally charged. I came into this feeling very neutral about what's going on, knowing we're lied to by mainstream media and many other media. As a fan of both Saif and Konstantin I thought this would be very enlightening. What I saw from Saif was preconceived notions about who his guest was with no interest in hearing him out or having a good faith argument. Just insults "NPC, Zionist". Even the title of this video is an attack. Huge bummer to see.
Disagree. He's countering the most powerful propaganda organization on the face of the earth.
You came into this neutral? Have you been living under a rock for the past year? What about the last decade. Saif knows what an unreasonable forked tongue serpent konstantin is. He called him out from the jump.
@@equityjustice2695you and Saifedean need some anger management and logic classes
I share your feelings, having appreciated Saifedean's bitcoin book and Austrian economic perspective. Before this interview, I saw him as a rational, honest thinker. I hope he's humbled enough by the experience to do some rethinking and inner work.
@@forret you need to fill that black hole 🕳️ you have where your brain should be. We see what is going on. The world is awake to the crimes of Isn'tReal the te**or state
If you would like a TLDR
Saiifedean: You are a zionist
Kisin: What is a zionist?
Saiifedean: Someone who wants all of Gazans murdered or gone
Kisin: Then I am NOT a zionist
Saiifedean: I never said you were a zionist!
Ooo you forgot “…because you’re a Zionist NPC”
... then proceeds to call him a SJW Zionist NPC. Absolutely wild!
Saifadean implies konstantin is biased because of his identity, but it seems pretty clear that saif is very biased, probably because he is Palestinian himself.
He cannot see things from the israeli perspective. He cherry picks data which supports his view and ignores data which conflicts with it. Possibly he's been taught to hate Israel from a young age, so his mental models on the topic are so well established that there is no room for any conflicting evidence to get through into his brain which is sad.
100%
It’s impossible for non-Israelis to know how they would see things if they had no morals and viewed other humans as lower species
How biased if he’s literally been removed from his property 😐
@@ashdrakedby other Arab nations (Egypt, Jordan) telling them to leave until they eliminate Israel - in which point they can return. This promise just didn't age well 😂
@@ashdraked yeah, but he wasn't "literally removed from his property", He was born and raised in Lebanon, so what are you talking about?
"He cannot see things from the israeli perspective." - what is even worse he can't even understand the "outsider" / objective unbiased perspective.
Every time you tell your opponent that their beliefs are not their own, they are brainwashed, they are an NPC, you are introducing unfalsifiable claims into the conversation and derailing it entirely. This is not how you have a grown up conversation.
Konstantin outed his identity at the 15:00 mark. There was no reason to continue the conversation after that. If you can't spot the bias in de-animating the object of the kidnapping then your mental capacity is too far below the level needed to understand the conversation
@@sFeral get a mirror? It might help you to understand why people laugh at you when you talk.
He did no such thing. Saif just proved what a thoroughly racist bigot and coward he is.
@@sFeral npc
@@wasdwasdedsfno argument detected
17:20 An NPC argument right here... assuming that every war, invasion, or battle must have involved some rape. Must be a level 1 NPC
Saif... This isn't the way. If you are 100% sure, calmly present evidence. This dude is your friend, or he was.
No, I don’t think he’s his friend
@@alexasad4745 not anymore after how he treated him
@@alexasad4745 lol
K exposed himself at 15:00, it was over then and there, Saif was generous in giving him a chance to recover
He doesn't need snakes as friends
Being a good economist obviously doesn't make you a great political thinker, especially when you are more emotional than a teenage girl with PMS.
Tell that to a Jew kvetching about the holocaust. Oh you wouldn’t. Why not?
@@thomasseptimius 😂. Konstantin got exposed
and what else than emotion is tying you to this mortal realm oh wise one? Fear and hunger are at the core of your Earthly existence, do you deny them?
which derivative emotion do you find most repugnant?
LoL 😂😂😂 is,,ra,el is on the brink of civil war.Ben about to be tried on corruption charges and ham,,as decided to save the country and Ben, lol😂😂 ,you all probably think we are all bafoonsæ.its another fal,,se f,l,a,g .with script, make up artists ,camera,and actors. They couldn't fool us all
I know how powerful cognitive dissonance and confirmation bias are and thus there's probably no way for Saifedean to ever learn how poorly and irrationally he behaved here, but man, that was not it.
To make it worse, I'm someone who isn't that informed on this issue and has accordingly held back on having much of a strong opinion either way. I've read The Bitcoin Standard and came here thinking I'd learn something. If Ammous' goal was to win people to his way of thinking, I am an example of him failing to achieve it. If Ammous' position was so strong, he obv wouldn't need to strawman and put words in Kisin's mouth this much. Hard to give him much credit after invalidating his own argument in this way.
If you'd compare cognitive dissonance and confirmation bias to CTE and roid rage, Saif here was the Chris Benoit of cognitive dissonance and confirmation bias.
Saif's point can be reversed. Can easily say Saif is a Palestinian NPC identity politician. Not addressing the evidence. Also I believe Saif had a preconception of what KK was and therefore all KK said was shoehorned and squashed into the preconceived framework of what S believes KK thinks and why
I think you nailed it
If we're going back in time to redraw borders, how about we go back all the way, and Muslims leave Israel and palestine and also leave occupied Pakistan and go back to Saudi Arabia
lol I recommend you look into the genetic make up of Lebanese, Palestinian, and Ashkenazi…. They all share a majority of their DNA that comes directly from the Phoenicians or Canaanite’s (people in the Levant during the Bronze Age). Yes Palestinians do indeed have more Arab in them than people considered Lebanese or Ashkenazi. But they have about as much Arab as Ashkenazi have Eastern European. So…
Oh and if you are an Israeli, this might all be completely new news to you because I know DNA tests are illegal in Israel, but maybe this would be a good time to ask yourself why exactly that is?
Current day Israelis acting like they are the rightful heirs of that land is a joke. And the irony that Israelis are literally slaughtering and trying to expel their own brethren is devastating and heartbreaking. Especially cause most of them don’t even know this.
@@courtneytwait3351 you completely misunderstand the problem.
The point is that if you try to go back and redraw borders where do you stop ? how far back will you go ?
@@courtneytwait3351 Courtney, you completely missed the point and in your blind hatred started rambling on with your rayycist nonsense
The point is that if you try to go back and redraw borders where do you stop ? how far back will you go ?
And dont forget Bangladesh as well, and India.
@@courtneytwait3351 You are conveniently ignoring all the jews that lived in the middle-east, and pretending that they arent the majority of jews living in israel today.
Anyone that uses your argument is just a brainwashed npc that only uses talking points input to you by your masters, be they streamers or whatever that brainwashed you.
Saif was hallucinating Kisin's positions. Evidence for the facts of the matter seem to be sparse and weak for both sides. The information sphere is so polluted nowadays its hard to tell what is true and false.
You’re right
@@patrickbranagan9288 Yeah, it's like a house of mirrors. Anybody trying to catch up on the facts of the matter in the midst of this propaganda storm has a hard swim. People tend to be guided by wishful thinking, which means, practically, by prejudice.
@@josephbradford5930 Well, then others might be able to help! You can put aside propoganda and look at factual ground facts. Look at data, at numbers not stories and rumors. Old fashioned hard research can't fail you. Some of us actually can help provide information that can't be disputed. And it defintely feels like we entred a black mirror era thanks to the woke 😅😂
@@AlyThree3 But, you're the guy who just said that evidence is sparse. You don't sound like the guy who knows where the cheese is hidden. Thanks, but I'm a pretty strong swimmer. 😁
@@josephbradford5930 Dosen't mean I don't think it's possible to find answers when you want to 🤔 are you swimming against the stream or with the stream?
Stick to bitcoin - this is damaging for your brand
He's already damaged it enough. Appreciate the wealth of knowledge I've learned about economics and Bitcoin from him, but I can no longer support this man. He's disgusting.
I've bought multiple copies of his Bitcoin Standard book for friends and family and it was my go-to whenever I wanted someone to learn about Bitcoin. Never again.
Facts. He seems mentally unwell
It’s the irrational anger and brainwashing people have today about anything they have directly or indirectly experienced all objectivity goes out the window. Basically I experienced it therefore it is, however, I have learnt from my own life that the way we experience things can be drastically different and even wrong to what is fundamentally true. Impressive people turn into mentally ill people.
I agree w the above two sentiments however I’m sure your emotions got the best of both of you at some point in life. Safe still has alot of reasonable logic and philosophy i will listen to when it comes to sound money and austrian economics i wll however not listen to a debate on other topics he has…i also do not listen to his nonsense when it comes to nutrition he sounds foolish. You have to be able to sift through what anyone says to find their gems!!! We all have friends for attributes that we value yet other attributes yr like wtf! 😳
Hamas filmed their atrocities and published the videos. We have seen the evidence.
so did IS, and whose are better? Who will get away with it?
15:00 if you're honest, listen to how he expresses himself there and tell me why he turns "his wife" into an inanimate object when he reverses the situation to the other guys POV?
@@sFeral he doesn’t refer to her as an inanimate object FFS 🤦♂️
He uses someone very near and dear to him as an example of how emotionally someone in this situation might feel.
@@jacobodom8401 you're not understanding what I wrote
@@jacobodom8401Surely Konstantin would kidnap the other guys wife, if that were to only way to get his back, no? Notice how neither of the wives are inanimate. His comparison is simply inadequate as Ham doesn't have the means to go in and terminate all IS occ u pation forces, like he does in his little "Taken" movie script
You accuse others of being an NPC, only to expose yourself as an NPC.
@@MrJesseBell 💯💯💯
as you're doing now, inception
he's a charlatan
It was the definition of NPC. Konstantin was pressing the "activate dialog" button, and Saifedean just spit out his lines as if Konstantin never said anything at all 😂
@@tylerharless226 K ripped himself apart with that initial comparison, where he immediately made the kidnapped object inanimate when reversing the roles, instead of keeping the "wife for a wife" equation. He probably failed both math and logic at school. Looking smug is all he's good at
Saifdean should stick to bitcoin
He did a good job exposing this ziionnisttt konstantin
@@HungryMoosey I watched the entire video. And I have watched other podcasts with ziionnisttt konstantin. Konstantin is a serpent
@@HungryMoosey evidence 🧾😂. Funny thing is Israel never seems to have evidence for anything yet konstantin seems to always believe them. Stop trying to gaslight, ziionnisttt tricks don't work on me. The world is now awakening to this criminal entity, but I have long know what it is.
@@HungryMooseyyes he did konstaninun is a komstsnt zionist and zionist apologist
@@equityjustice2695 Sorry young man, but if you watched it you didn't actually listen or understand it.
Saifedean really looked bad in this debate. Was he implying Konstantin is biased because of his Identity as a Russian, British or Greek? I couldn't figure that out
He couldnot say konstantin is a jew but deep inside he thinks konstantin is bigot like him which is not true .
@@mode4148he is a bigot
@@almostafa4725 انت مسلم اسكت احسن .
he wanted to say jew
@@mode4148 than you for proving my point
I wish this conversation was handled more Socratically and in good faith.
100%. I was expecting so much more from Saif but he was clearly there to attack the person who he had already decided Kissin was.
@@airjunkieadam kissin as admited has no idea about history of that region so why does he even talk publicly about it?
@@bartz4439 That doesn't mean be a jerk to him when he's there for a good faith discussion. I would argue Saif did more harm that good to his cause here. The only people agreeing are the ones who already had their mind made up. I was excited for an honest discussion, not an emotional attack.
@@bartz4439 are you Saif?
@@bartz4439 he didn't say he had no idea, he says he isn't an expert. And he said he tries not to comment about the conflict because of the lack of expertise.
Kisin probably knows more about the history than you do.
Safidean got obliterated. Im shocked he posted this.
He should stick to crypto.
no, you will get obliterated if you try to enter a discussion the same way Konstantin did. He destroyed himself at the 15:00 mark. No coming back from there
@@sFeral Yes, Konstantin got lost on his own argument at that time stamp. What is it that you think this tells us?
@@richardjohnston-bell476 K identifies with the perpetrator and de-values the victims object of desire by de-animating it(her/the wife character who is initially supposed to evoke sentiment) when it suits him, which only further illustrates who he identifies with and who he wants de-animated
@@HungryMoosey I think what I wrote, and it's purely an analysis of what he said, not up to debate, which is ironically what Konstantin wants his statements to be yet he has no ground to stand on
@@HungryMoosey it's not my opinion that he said this or that, he's there on video saying it, same as cidal politicians who are not to be taken seriously according to him
Some people find it hard to make friends, others excel at making enemies.
Wow this was an absolute slog to get through. Incredible how this man can go around in circles for over an hour and still there is no constructive bridging of perspectives. This encapsulates perfectly why there will likely never be peace in the Middle East.
And you posted this I’d be so ashamed
I’m thinking the same. But if he hadn’t, triggernometry would have posted and then it would have been even worse
I’m pretty certain he’s dumb enough to think he came out positive out of this debate
What a clown 😂
As a long time subscriber and fan, Saif, I admire your bravery for speaking with someone on this podcast (finally) who doesn’t automatically agree with you. You spent an hour twenty just destroying your own cause. But I admire your bravery.
I’m a huge Saifedean fan. I think he’s brilliant. I’ve read all his books. I love listening to him speak. He’s a master in debate, but he is not at his best here.
In my opinion, this issue is so close to home for him that it’s hard for him to not get emotional about it. As a result he was not earnest in trying to understand Konstantin’s perspective or persuade him to think differently. Saif repeatedly misrepresented K’s views and insulted him unnecessarily. It’s unfortunate because I think this could’ve been a productive conversation. Konstantin is not a mindless NPC.
i am a huge saifedean fan but i kind of have to agree.
@@derek.seaborn I agree, as a fellow Saif fan, that he wasn't at his cool headed best. He got heated and resorted to short-hand, which is easy to do. Kisin's jugular was exposed thought, and he failed to see it.
@@josephbradford5930 for sure, and it’s totally understandable why that would be the case. I’ve lost no respect for Saif, and I’ll continue to listen to him. So many people form their opinions of people based on their worst moments. This is the least articulate and grounded I’ve ever seen him. It’s not that Saif is wrong; it’s that his emotional connection to the topics clouded his greatest strengths. I predict (and hope) Saif will learn from this experience.
no, Konstantin is disingenuous and his "coolness" doesn't work on everyone, there's nothing to correct, except perhaps finishing the thought about blo w ing up facilities after they're occ u pied
@@sFeral are you Saif? He's a lunatic and bad faith actor. It was a shameless display and KK kept cool despite what a lying POS Saif is. He constantly tripped over himself every time he was asked to provide evidence.
Well done KK. All the way.
The UN report stated quote: Sexual violence is any sort of harmful or unwanted sexual behavior that is imposed on someone. It includes acts of abusive sexual contact, forced engagement in sexual acts, attempted or completed sexual acts with a woman without her consent (rape), sexual harassment, verbal abuse, threats, exposure, unwanted touching, incest, and others. Obviously you can't read Saif.
Clearly describes the IDF rapists
I really appreciate your comment. Thank you.
Where is the evidence? The UN offered none, neither did Israel. Claims without evidence should be seen as such
Konstantin is cool as a cucumber and runs laps around Saif in terms of debating.. Saif is great at projecting and putting words in KKs mouth though.
Wow Saif, you lost this by a landslide. Most of your 300 comments side with Konstantin. On the trig page most of the 4000 comments side with k.
Maybe you should learn how to argue. What a shitshow.
Triggernometry has 20 TIMES as many RUclips subscribers as Saif. RUclips is hardly Saif's main channel of communication.
That is all you're seeing. Tons of brigading NPCs.
@@The20thHijacker I see tons of really mild and mostly constructive criticism. Your view is that Saif is perfect and always right?
@@The20thHijacker "I’m a huge Saifedean fan. I think he’s brilliant. I’ve read all his books. I love listening to him speak. He’s a master in debate, but he is not at his best here.
In my opinion, this issue is so close to home for him that it’s hard for him to not get emotional about it. As a result he was not earnest in trying to understand Konstantin’s perspective or persuade him to think differently. Saif repeatedly misrepresented K’s views and insulted him unnecessarily. It’s unfortunate because I think this could’ve been a productive conversation. Konstantin is not a mindless NPC."
for example, just saiyng..
@@The20thHijackerDo you think Saif won this debate then?
@@The20thHijacker lol
Dude you didn’t really need to bring him on your podcast if you hated him this much! All you needed was a photo of him and a screenshot of his tweet because you had already made up your mind and didn't seem to listen to anything he said!😂😂
I can't stand it when people think they can magically get inside the head of others to determine what they think and what motivates them. The host of this podcast did this constantly, including putting words in his guests mouth.
Never tell a person, acting as a “jackal” what he thinks. Non violent communication.
Saifedean......you embarrassed yourself.
Saif was painful on this one. Strawman after strawman. I like Saif and he's right about most of his points, he's just arguing against an idea he made up about what Konstantin believes. Could have been a lot more productive. Not finishing.
The guy had a tweet that shows what he believes
Agree with this. I think Saif could’ve engaged without straw men and ad hom. He let KK sound reasonable. Wasted opportunity. Do better Saif! Disappointed because Saif is on the right side here!
@@Sge32 yeah IDK. I think they agree more than the conversation sounded like. Saif is too close to the situation to be reasonable *(fair) but sounds to me like both guys agree civilian deaths are bad, they just both justify their own team taking them on the edges because they disagree about who is a hostage and who is a prisoner (i didn't finish, maybe this was clarified more later) personally I think they are both a little wrong and a little right but I sympathize more with Saifs position because of the history of propaganda surrounding that area of the world.
@@akoben taken out of context
@@Sge32 I tuned in to try to figure it out as I love other work by Saif, but this was such a turn off and hugely disappointing. I found myself neutral in the beginning, by the end I am so disappointed by Saif's emotional interview void of any good faith.
Sad to hear him berate Konstantin this whole hour
Literal NPC accuses others of being an NPC
It was sad to feel how Konstantin seems to be really disappointed. Like he was expecting to have been invited to a civilized conversation. We have all seen how Saif has played the whole thing. It also seemed, specially at the end, that Konstantin could have completely decimated but looked to have held back because that is not what he came for.
Bro I been following you for a min on other platforms and this made you lose every ounce of credibility you’ve built up. Absolutely unhinged and are playing into stereotypes that Palestinians will never come to the table for peace.
It's not a stereotype, it's just a reality.
A stereotype is something that is largely regarded as untrue. This isn't a stereotype. These are these people, unfortunately.
@@giltuito1545Stereotypes aren’t regarded as untrue. They’re based in fact.
@@hsmd4533 Largely regarded as untrue, not just regarded as untrue. Do you see the difference?
@@noamto They’re neither regarded as untrue nor largely regarded as untrue.
Love the respectful calls for less bias in the comments, rare to see and restores faith in humanity.
Lost all respect for Saifedean. Used to give his book to orange pill friends. No more
I threw it out.
This entire conversation about the IDF rescuing hostages and killing people in the process is so dumb lol. First of all, they went to rescue hostages and Hamas started firing RPGs in the middle of a residential area. It was only then that the IDF started responding. It was kill or be killed. But, if you remember, people like Saifedean were also the ones saying that Israel should not go to war but should instead do 'targeted attacks'. They tried targeted attacks in this case, even going covertly etc, and THIS was the outcome. And the goalpost moved yet again ..
good points
@@4x4r974 also people didn’t realise that it was impossible to do these type of missions at the early stage of the war.
SA. You grow up in a Fatah occupation not Israeli . Hamas was legally got elected in Gaza in 2006 so it's a legitimate government of Gaza. Why does Israelis need to feed their enemies? You forgot the other border with Egypt
Israel should not feed it’s enemies
You're a NPC with a very basic understanding of this conflict. You know Hamas was barely elected by a slim majority in 2006, when the voting age was 18 and you'd have to have been at least 35 to 36 years old today to have voted in that election, and that makes up less than half of their population, of which almost half of that voting age who voted did not vote for Hamas, so you're talking about a current-day minority of people who voted for Hamas. It also doesn't help when Hamas is funded and supported by Israelis. From what Netanyahu said, "We control the height of the flames." This was their strategy from the beginning, they are aiming for no partner for peace so they can say, Look what we have to deal with; they don't want peace. Also, why does Isreal stop them from having any kind of port or trade partner or allow them to have their own source of water supply that they don't directly control? The majority of people don't say they have to feed them, but why are they refusing them aid from foreign countries? Why are they preventing them from building their own infrastructure to be self-sufficient? Why is the Israeli government stealing land from Palestinians in the West Bank? Why are they trying to push off the gazans to other countries with worse Infrastructure that can only take in a few migrants due to resource constants Why do they have multiple laws on the books that restrict Muslim and Palestinian residence of both the West Bank and those who still reside in Israel? Why are there Jewish only roads and settlements of previously owned and constructed housing form Palestinians? A lot of those houses were constructed before the state of Israel even existed. Why is there property rights invalidated when the property it's self was in the previous owners possession before the Isreal state existed and without there efforts they're wouldn't be a house to steal if they hadn't built the house and maintained the property.
@@adamm3611 oh wow you got me jews aren't allowed in area A lol but forget all the other heinous things Isreal does to Palestinians that i mentioned. Its also plenty of UN reports saying the majority of Gaza is Undernourished having all most 60% of the population consuming less than 2000 calories a day. But yeah some aid trucks sure aren't being prevented from giving aid to gazans from isreali protesters who are protected by idf soldiers. I love that you guys are always focusing on specifics of things that don't matter but gloss over all the other Heinous things happening forget about homes being stolen or children being shoot in the street on video tapes or drones targeting innocent civilians forget about all that you didn't mentions jews aren't allow in area A lol is that the best defense you got for an Apartheid state
@@the_future_is_anarchy1791 i know everything about the conflict. You grow up in a terrorist corrupt organization area if it's ramallah that pays around 3000 to 10k per Jew . Jenin is probably the worst but ramallah surely meets the criteria. You probably left from there in a young age or you just lying not to get in hot waters
@@the_future_is_anarchy1791 So Hamas were not elected at all?
I'm old enough to remember when Alex Jones was sued for $1.3 Billion for denying a school shooting.
Meanwhile anyone on MSM, pro-hamas, institutions, goverment etc as long as anyone is pro-established rule they arent even sued for calling for actual genocide (''river to the sea'')
or while constantly lying and denying reality.
Wow thought crimes lol 😂 democracy they said
@@eye4eye_the first amendment protects you, you won't be put In jail for saying something like that. That doesn't mean you can't be sued though.
@@giltuito1545 That is a life-destroying figure that he will never come close to paying a fraction of. He will be a slave to it until he's dead. Which was the whole point setting it that high. He may have slipped through the criminal system, but the judge presiding the civil case was determined to make up for it.
@@giltuito1545 so making money off dead children will ease the pain? Very telling of what kind of people would do that kind of thing for money .. how does that help the cause? So there’s people out here forcing others to believe them? Or get sued? Is that democracy?
What worries me about this conversation, is that Saifdean is actually a well educated, successful and intelligent person, but when discussing this subject, he gets completely illogical, becomes removed from the dialogue and becomes very hostile at what he imagines Konstantin to be, and his mind cannot get out of that trench no matter how many times this is calmly and reasonably explained to him. Now, imagine a whole crowd of people like that together out on the street all egging each other on, then, imagine a whole crowd of people like that who see an orthodox Jewish person or family, or an Israeli student, what will they think that those people "probably think" or who they "probably support. What will they do? What will their reaction to those people or that family be? Very, very dangerous
Ayman al-Zawahiri was a surgeon.
Wow, did you even bother to watch the replay?
Watch it. And slowly let it sink in
The last bit is so cringe!!! Poor Saif got himself twisted into a pretzel trying to avoid exposing himself for as an antisemite… 😅 poor thing doesn’t have the balls to say it out right. What a spineless weasel…
It seems that you didn't even need to have Konstantin on your show, you could have just talked to a cut-out of him. XD
I really wish we could still see the downvote count. I think it would be high on this video
about 600 downvotes, there's an extension
@@brettpid6416 by now it's 218 likes to 714 dislikes
@@oshomroni Now it's 240 upvotes to 926 downvotes.
You guys really try your best to act like NPC's. Sounding like a Discord bot
@@ryanisbelle6107 Exactly what an NPC would comment.
Konstantin as usual is eloquent and rational. Saifedean is increasingly hysterical. 1:08:06 KK nails it
He didn't nail it at all! In fact he sounded like a petulant know it all, trying to pin Saif with an antisemitism charge in a way that was totally intellectually dishonest.
And anyway Saif was right, his identity as anyone who is from the West, consumes western media, speaks to other western people, and is entirely dependent on the western media for his lifestyle and position in society is clearly going to be biased towards the group that his identity most aligns with, because it's in his best interests, and it's what he knows.
As Saif said, his identity means he views everything through a lens where it's ok for one side to do a certain action, but not the other.
Because of - Brandolinis law
@@alembic1105 Saif never really emphasized “Western Identity” though. He claimed that KK was biased due to his identity but refused to elaborate which aspect of KK’s identity.
Saif cannot just say that someone is “identity biased” just because someone disagrees with his position.
Then he say he doesn’t know which identity. He clearly has a very strong idea as to what it is, but he won’t say it, in fear of his prejudice being exposed.
He insinuated many times, from the very start, that KK is a racist but he had no evidence to back up this accusation.
@@jacobodom8401most Jews are openly racist ethnosupremacists so on a balance of probabilities, he probably is. Every poll shows this.
@@alembic1105I’m not sure what’s worse: Saif’s pathetic performance or the pathetic people defending him.
This video introduced me to Saifedean, I had not seen him before. Talk about an NPC. He can't see past the prejudices he's been programmed to have. What a stark contrast between these two.
Well done KK. You remained very composed while being attacked on your « identity ». What a mean way of leading an argument.
Omfg watching Seifs complete meltdown and ramblings was fascinating. The audience and the guest could do nothing but gawk in amazement. Embarassing
This was clearly bad. I'm more of SA fan than KK fan. KK gets some serious points for how he conducted himself, SA loses some serious points for how he conducted himself. This is deeply personal for SA. He got overly emotional. He is only human. This doesn't invalidate his other work or his genius. We should be honest about his failure here, he should take some time to reflect on his behavior, and let's continue to appreciate both of these brilliant and virtuous (and flawed) people.
You can be a warrior for love and truth without descending into blind rage. SA made that mistake. Let us not repeat it.
While I agree that Saif was overly emotional and put false words into KK’s mouth, I don’t understand how can KK think that IDF causing collateral victims (more than Hamas ever did, even considering they did it intentionally) is justified. This is also the main point of the debate. KK said multiple times that this is justified.
On this main point Saif is right (that neither side’s killings is justified). The moment KK said the losses of life caused by IDF are justified, the debate was over. However, Saif kept insulting him and insisting on this when he should have just call it a day.
Didn't listen to the whole thing, Saifedean is being really annoying
Awesome we could possibly have found an equally misguided person to start a new band with Roger Waters! I wonder if Saifedean plays an instrument.
😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
Ok that’s it I’m selling my BTC
Embarrassing 😂😂 made loads of assertions but with no evidence 😂
Ethnic cleansing definition - The mass expulsion or killing of members of one ethnic or religious group in an area by those of another.
Approx Gazan Palestinian population has grown from 1.3m in 2000 - 2.3m in 2024
Approx 1.6 million Muslims living in Israel in 2024 with a decent amount identifying as Palestinian Arabs.
Even with rough numbers the claim of ethnic cleansing Gazan Palestinians is statistically incorrect. This may change. The Jewish population in neighboring countries illustrate the maths of what ethnic cleansing would look like.
Approx Jewish population in 1950 - Lebanon 25000, Egypt 80000, Syria 30000
Approx Jewish population in 2024 - Lebanon 80, Egypt 15, Syria 20
Good job, bud. I wish i could unsubscribe but i wasn't subscribed. 🖖
It was painful for me to see Konstantin Kisin talk down to my fav economist. Even more painful to see Saifdean putting his fingers in hears ears and go "na na na na naaaaaa"
Ive never seen this Konstantin Kisiin but im subscribed now
You’ll love his channel. Perfect for the lower portion of the midwit range.
I'm new to Konstantin as well. I read Saif's books on Bitcoin and really liked him, but he started to lose me with his Obsession on Israel. I have given him the benefit of the doubt, but he has these conversations in bad faith, never looking to have constructive dialog. It seems his agenda used to be Bitcoin, but has shifted to try to sway people that Israel is illegitimate.
Triggernometry is a really, really good channel
✌🏻
Saif should just stick with bitcoin 😂
Yes
He should
This behavior calls his opinions on bitcoin into question
The ghosts in Ammous’ head. Wow.
Claiming that all/the majority of 7.10 victims were killed by the IPF is some serious denial of very blattant facts, many of which were well documented by the Hawas fighters themselves. This does not go with your usual calm observation of facts, and puts into question everything else you have to say on the topic.
As you are from the area, we understand this is an emotional topic for you, but this discussion and the video title are not fair at all for your guest.
I dont think hamas even tried that excuse
Historical revisionism, pure and simple 😮
This was an hour plus of straw manning and really hard to watch Saif here. I think he did a better job on TFTC with Marty Bent by boiling this down to property rights. I understand what Konstantin was trying to get at by the end with the identity politics thing and perhaps it's true but will give Saif the benefit of the doubt as he could've thrown that out as a general criticism trying to draw a parallel to Konstantis work
So much straw a man could hardly be found anymore. Totally unwatchable.
A very one sided history lesson there. Arab colonialists (Not Muslim conquerors) did not allow Jews to return. Jews were already there and have always been there. And Palestine? Dude, Every single historical account mentioning a Palestinian is actually referring to a Jew. Arabs haven't been called Palestinian any more than 70yrs...And you grew up in Ramallah? So did the green prince and he has a very different account to you.
Very accurate point
The most disingenuous "debate" I've possibly ever seen. Stick to bitcoin shill your attempt to branch out into world affairs is going to fail miserably.
It’s right up there with the Cathy Newman / Jordan Peterson interview.
At this point, it's clear to me that neither an Israeli nor a Palestinian can speak on this subject with any clarity whatsoever. They are just too close to it and it leads to Saifedean Ammous coming off as he does in this interview.
Saifedean, I don't care to tell you that you are right or wrong, but you gotta know that you aren't gonna convince anyone watching this with curious eyes, trying to understand the truth, that your position is correct. Gotta change your tact or pack it in and stick with Bitcoin, dude.
I've heard many very measured and objective views from Isrealis
the only Palestinians I've heard of are like this guy, vile
@@brettpid6416 Fair, however after I came to be aware that Israel is having a society-wide debate about the legitimacy of raping Palestinian inmates, I felt disillusioned. I guess if an Israeli made a statement up front that they detest the practice and detest large swaths of their society for even debating it, I would continue listening.
@@ryanjacobs5253 What sources did you use? The debate wasnt about rape, it was about physical torture of any extent. Which given just how horrendous the crimes of these people (the ones that were put in prison) are, is quite understandable. You dont know what happened on october 7th. If you did, you would understand that not everyone is capable of showing restraint. Personally I dont know why they even take prisoners.
@@Tiasung Keep making excuses man
I love Saif alot and I agree with most his points but the constant ad hominem is not his best look.
Nah in this case it's fair. Kisin is inconsistent af.
@@ali-yp3yw Ad hominem should never be used as an argument in a civilized debate, at least not if you want to keep it civil and the attention focused on the topic. There were a lot of distractions in the conversation and alot of useless back on forth because the guest was feeling attacked.
I mean I get the frustration Saif was experiencing, and honestly I've found myself feeling very similar talking to people close to me, and haven't carried myself as I would like to have many times either. So I'm not saying I'm better than that, in fact I'm probably alot worse.
@@LoloLovesLifeglad someone else said it. I wish Saif had come with a bit more research of recent statements and quotes for them to discuss rather than making blanketed statements and attacks. It lead to the discussion being muddled and lost instead of the obvious attempt of Saif to get Kis to change his mind
Kind of agree here. Seems saif thought he was just going to publicly spank him for an hour but had trouble pinning him on his inconsistencies. The ad hom attacks helped KK move off the pertinent points. Still think Saif is right but KK kind of “won” because Saif was not prepared IMO
@LoloLovesLife if you're debating whether or not genocide is a-ok, you aren't civilized.
@Saifedean Ammous Hi again, Saifedean. In addition to my other comment regarding your false claim about Zionism and terrorism - I would like to take this opportunity and mention another false claim of yours:
I'm talking about your debate with Yaron Brook, where you claimed that Zionists are behind the U.S. joining WW2. This is obviously false, since the US declared war on Japan after the attack on Pearl- Harbor, and then Hitler declared war on the U.S, and not the other was around.
so yeah... that's another false claim that you made regarding Zionism, hence it would be appropriate of you to publish a correction.
I actually came from trigonometry to see how the people this guy talks to behave because he gave the impression of being smart but what I saw is the dumbest point on this hamas/isreali war. At least most of his audience notice how dumb his position is.
yo dude, debate this with douglas murray ;) i dare you
Love to see him bring mossab the green prince. Lol but there's zero chance he wants the smoke
Hamas apologist who made a complete joke out of himself
Historians and journalists have rightly and consistently - until the current aberrant trend for distorting English language usage - always named any conflict with the initiator of the conflict, i.e the firer of the first shot, first. This is the Hamas-Israel war. Israel was not in Gaza before October 7 last year. Hamas came into Israel. Those are indisputable historical facts. They are not opinion. That is reality no matter how ideologically unpleasant that it seem. Currently we also have the Russia-Ukraine war, no matter how ideologically unpleasant that might seem to some. Focus on real issues, not attempts to distort accurate terminology.
Inbreeding has its consequences.
Would hate to tell ya what happened in the shtetls.
It really does, this endless cousin marrying cousins thing isn't really working out it seems
You are fighting windmills Quixote
I have a feeling Konstantin has spent much of his life telling people - ‘ that’s not what I said , you are not listening to me ‘
Guys like that should be engaged in written form. That way it is clear what the disingenuous person said and didn't say and they can't deceive and lie their way out of their own fallacies and inconsistencies as easily.
Because people need to make things up in order to blindside him. He is always incredibly well prepared and admits when he’s unaware of something.
21:30 This man is insane
I watched this in Konstatin channel and came here to see if I was the only one who thought Saifedean completely botched this conversation. The comments here show I'm not alone.
Perfect conversation to master techniques on how to debate, how to win an argument, how to handle interruptions, etc … between adversarial positions.
Besides that, I see a lot of projection on SD side: accusations of being an NPC, biased views, prejudices … all that are present on Saifedean and erode his credibility.
I’m overall satisfied with the hour spent cause I learnt stuff, more on the formality of debating, than in the substance of this complex topic. Not a good look on Saifedean this time, too emotional.
Same! I was making mental notes on debate tactics throughout watching this.
Disappointing. Saif is so emotionally charged that he can’t have a good faith conversation. Konstantin was levelheaded, patient, and polite.
Saif might not realize it but his actions are only causing more unnecessary death. One side has all the power…and the other side invaded. Sorry but when you start a war there are consequences when you lose…if you win not a lot of long term consequences…that’s reality. The Gazan people have already lost and are moving towards not existing soon…only because of poor choices they made. The more they resist the more they end up becoming a forgotten group. The only chance they have is to work with the IDF against Hamas…other than that…bye…unfortunately that is the reality. Even countries who claim to support Gaza like Turkey, Saudi, Jordan, UAE, ect…they provide arms and funding to Israeli…I know becuase working for the US Army I see why logistics they transfer to Israeli. Gaza has zero chance, Lebanon, and Yemen…that is reality. Iran will also tumble soon. Either through a war with Harris or economically through Trump(I prefer his over war).
Saifdean...I'd love to hear a discussion between you and Rudy Rochman who has conversations like this one, with the sole purpose of uniting Arabs and Jews rather than continue this endless conflict...I think it is a conversation completely worth having since you both are knowledgeable historically and can dig into the deeper details in a way that is not possible for someone who doesn't live there and doesn't fully understand the history.
This debate and the behavior of Saifedean made me bearish on Bitcoin.
Saifedean, so which part of his identity bothers you so much? To put it simply: Who is he to you? Who do you think he is?
You've got good arguments perhaps at some points, but you failed to answer his question about his identity. Answer that, and you will see WHO you are and what YOUR identity is.
Saif can never lose bias on the topic and as an Israeli I don’t bloody blame him. That does not make 100% of what he says right because at least 50% is bs
@@faxian12 Or, just maybe, 50% of what you believe just isn’t true.
@@debbiebeatty8449 exactly so the show was about bias and a civilized discussion was not achieved
Surprised how unhinged this is for how brilliant saifedean is with his views on economics and bitcoin
This was cringy to watch, on par with the Cathy Newman / Jordan Peterson interview.
Saifedean acted appallingly.
Konstantin's 11-9 reference is all I need to hear
Konstantin handled himself with respect, curiosity, humbleness and amazing moral character while the other guy seem to be emotionally attached to his side of the argument that seems to be willinful blind and is more interesting in making false claims about Konstantin just to win the argument.
Does Konstantin win some sort of patience prize after this?
Kissin punches landed like Mike Tyson’s
It's a shame cause, as a non-expert in economics, I felt like I was learning a lot from Saifedean's books about bitcoin and the economy. If he is ideologically possessed on this topic, it makes me wonder about his integrity re: topics related to econ. Hopefully it's just the Palestinian identity playing a role in this case.
Orange Shirt Man Bad.
😂
"talking from first principles" is an excuse people emply to justify an opinion when they know absolutely nothing about the topic
Are you using a first principles perspective to demonstrate your knowledge of first principle’s approach 😂
What a funny bookshelf. I'm sure lots of objective reading gets done
I was shocked to learn after listening to this "debate" that Saifedean Ammous has a PhD. His performance in this discussion certainly didn't suggest that level of education.
He destroy you, OMG this was embarrassing.
This is one of the worst debates I've seen on YT.
Konstantine absolutely demolished you.
Wow, that was embarrassing for you Saifedean….. Konstantin was extremely calm and patient in the face of your hysteria and borderline abusive behaviour
Hamas did primarily target the IDF. Half of the people killed on 7 October were IDF. Half of the civilians that were killed were killed by the IDF in accordance with the Hannibal Directive. The Israeli government forbids the discussion of the Hannibal Directive in the press in order to cover up the fact that a huge portion of the civilians murdered on 7 October were killed by the IDF.