Dampers system are crap. Specially with bypass from the supply to the return. Builders started doing these crap in early 2000s to get away with putting 2 systems in your house. 2 zone up stairs down stairs is crap this is why . If both thermostat are calling for cooling yiur cooling the hole house anyway. With a under sized unit because its on a damper system. If one thermostats are off that part of the house is hot see my point . Any point you try make about zoning i can trump with why it sucks. One last example. If you have return air in up stairs down stairs. Then you can not run heating and cooling separately. You cant even run heating and cooling at the same time. This residential were talking cheap garbage. Commercial different conversation it works great. Because its done right.
People pushing this fragile and troublesome tech on customers are unethical. The parts are junk and not robust for a residence without a call back ever two years or less. I had to do replacements seems like ever month somewhere. Callbacks make customer's mad when they see why.
Usually the unethical part is the installing company who tried to take one stage equipment and use it on a two zone system. Typically without a properly sized or controlled bypass. However a two stage system with a two speed or ecm blower, combined with an electronic static controlled bypass (or modulating dampers) can work flawlessly. This video points out spring return dampers are not reliable. The content could be supplemented with two stage and commissioning training. Given it is a repair class rather than a design tutorial it covers the majority of common two zone single stage installations.
@@rj.parker The part you don't get in a school is that people (residential) are dirty, have no money for last year and your fantasy dream ECM and modulate gas tech too expensive. The motors are outrageous $$$
@@SovereignTroll I did suggest a two speed blower (available as a psc) and modulating dampers (not gas furnace) can work reliably. The whole point is damper based zoning can and often does work flawlessly. However blindly force fitting it into two story house operating with one single stage unit is often the problem. Two separate builder grade units is certainly better but expensive and difficult to retrofit. There are good, better and best forced air zoning solutions with good being two speed blowers and modulating dampers (Jackson Systems), better (two stage scrolls and ecms) and best (communicating inverters with factory integrated modulating dampers - Trane, Carrier, others). Every unit these days has sensitive electronics somewhere, so whole house surge suppressors are now code and should be retrofit in most cases (as easy as a $100 breaker style suppressor).
"You almost always have a customer that is dissatisfied with their Zone System. That is so true it made me laugh. I have worked on zone systems since 1996 and have yet to see any of them really perform like they are supposed to. And they do have so many issues it makes you wonder if it's worth it. If the system and the ductwork are sized right a zoning system is not needed. Better to avoid it.
do you think a properly sized hvac system replaces zoning for areas of different humidity and insulation qualities? like my first floor vs my basement which are on the same system, but the basement is always 3-4 degrees colder than the first floor and it causes comfort problems in both heating and cooling season. the basement floor is finished and not insulated against the concrete foundation
@@shoyrushoyru What you are talking about is one of the things that zoning tries to overcome but often fails to do so. Let me ask you this. Was your basement originally finished off when the house was built or did you have that done after the fact?
@@seanmathews1826 we had it finished after the fact and upgraded to a larger air exchanger and larger AC unit outside so that they can feed the first floor and basement. the basement has fiberglass insulation on all the walls but the floor is tiled right against the concrete.. unfortunately i dont think we could even think about zoning as all the basement vents are tapped off the same main supply and return ducts from the first floor instead of being run separately to the exchanger unit
@@shoyrushoyru It's very good that you upsized to a larger system. But be aware that basements are inherently cooler than the rest if the house. Hopefully they also added a return duct in that area. Often times the problems of balanced heating and cooling in a home can be solved by simply adjusting the registers in each room to get the amount of airflow to each room without spending thousands of dollars on zoning. Many times I have encountered people who have zoning and it just doesn't work as well as advertised.
@@seanmathews1826 they added two return ducts in the area. the largest one in the main living area, and a smaller one in one of the bigger sectioned-off rooms. i wonder if partially closing down some registers on the first floor would help the basement at all get some more of the airflow. like it isnt catastrophic but it is definitely a comfort nuisance at times. it probably doesnt really help that the ceiling registers placed in the basement don't seem to really close, but are just like directional adjustments. i want to mention that it means a lot to me that you are having this calm and wholesome conversation with me on this random topic. it warms my heart
Can you guys send a link for the entire video there is a lot of stuff that was not covered in this short clip like the bypass, more on the wiring that I would like to see thank you
My Board is a Honeywell TrolAtemp with 3 Zones. My home only has 2. After checking the airflow at the vents, I determined that my downstairs Zone Damper (Zone1), was always on. I checked in the attic with my volt meter to find that no voltage was being sent to shut the Zone 1 damper, when Zone 2 was the only active zone. I shut down the system and carefully moved the wires from Zone 1 to Zone 3 and it fixed the problem. I'm sure I'll have to change out the board at some point. Your video gave me just enough information to trouble shoot what was going on. The switch to Zone 3 was mainly a trial, to see if the damper was good or bad. After trying the upstairs and downstairs thermostats several times in different configurations, and watching to see how the board would react. I decided to leave it that way. There was one instants when Zone 1 came on for some reason and shut down the compressor, but within 2 minutes it shut itself back off and Zone 2 and 3 took back over. Feel free to comment if there's a reason I shouldn't run the unit using Zone 2 and 3 vrs. Zone 1 and 2.
Thank you for making the video! I learned something. Didn’t know about why a dedicated transformer was needed for the zone board. You guys talked about the DATS a bit but didn’t really get into why it’s used/needed for the zone board.
I have confirmed my T9s are wired correctly, according to HW, but it seems two zones within the HZ322 cannot run at the same time. Is this typical? I am assuming that based on your depiction both dampers would be open to allow this. I did have a White wire going to W and a Black to W2X2 which showed a conflict with Auxiliary on T9 and HW said to disconnect the white. Old thermostat Trane TCONT401. Thank You
Has the newer Honeywell damper motors gotten better? I ask because I went through at least three and the motor would heat to the point the plastic gear it was driving would strip from the teeth softening. I would then get a continuing click when the motor is energized from stripped gear area. I since disconnected the motors (2) and they stay in the open position (about 10 years ago). We don't use the upstairs often, so I just close the vents in each room. I want to get it back to working properly. My panel is a Honeywell EMM-3U. I am only using two zones & the board does have M1, M4 & M6 so I'm leaning towards a three wire motor (because of my past experience with return spring type motors) and if so, what would be a good replacement? I could always add a extension to the damper rod if required. Thank you very much in advance, Christopher Brown
Does a Power-Open/Power-Close damper use less power than a Power-Close/Spring-Open damper? I'd be using a Lennox control board (10C16) that I assume sends the open/close signal continuously. I'm thinking/hoping the PO/PC only draws current when it's moving, while I suspect a PC/SO uses current all the time it is closed. Maybe it's negligible and I should stop worrying about it, but I'm trying to choose what components to buy and trying to make everything as optimal as possible.
hi Im in the UK and just starting out, here we mostly have Belimo valves which as good as they are for my project I just need a basic open close air damper, can you recommend Andy manufactures ? Thanks
I’ve had issues with high limit going off cause of a bypass damper. In my experience, bleeding off zones works best. I’ve done both and bleeding off has been more successful for me. Just my take.
The bypass damper is the most crucial component in zoning applications. If not setup up properly, there will be high limit issues in heating and coil freezing issues in cooling. This is especially important on single stage equipment. If no bypass damper is used, then minimum flow rates at each zone need to be set properly. There are also airflow balancing and static pressure settings to consider. Otherwise, there will be premature component failures, i.e. compressor; heat exchanger.
Enjoyed the video & got refreshed. Through me into a zone system start up & its taking me hours. Send me to diagnose one & I'm good. I like that you said the attic is the last check! Need to use your best tools first, eyes,ears,nose & touch!
I know very little about HVAC but know I have a 2 zone system and have been searching for a "smart damper" why isn't or hasn't one been made yet? seems pretty logical for me to be able to open and close the damper to control the heat. I was told if some are closed off it will suffocate the furnace... ?? love to hear from those that know. THANKS
i have a bryant evo /carrier infinity? with 4 zones. my zone dampers buzz constantly in any position. i'm assuming these systems are much smarter in that if someone calls for more air which causes the blower to increase rpm, then some of the other zone dampers will actually close a little more (position 1-15?) in order to regulate the flow and send more air to the zone that's calling, am i right? i wish i could fly you to texas like OG matt does and pay you to look at my new home system, i already had a blower motor ecm fail and now rust on the 4" filter mesh from condensate dripping down from the vertical A coil, not to mention high static pressure and insufficient return, too much air flow in certain zones, etc.
You need to get a factory trained Carrier variable speed tech from another company to inspect and repair your system. It is likely to be incorrectly installed and commissioned. Typically builders use low bid contractors who are used to installing single stage no zone systems. Having them try to fix their own install never works. Don't let their "guarantee" force you into accepting bad results from the installing company.
Carrier zone dampers are NOT like the ones in this video!!! The ones in this video are 100% open/closed. Carrier's are multi position, like you stated 1-15, and are controlled based on temp, static and demand. You need someone who knows Carrier equipment!!!
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Thanks 🙏
Wow. One of the most explainable videos i ever watched. You're a true teacher. Keep up the good stuff 😎
Dampers system are crap. Specially with bypass from the supply to the return.
Builders started doing these crap in early 2000s to get away with putting 2 systems in your house.
2 zone up stairs down stairs is crap this is why . If both thermostat are calling for cooling yiur cooling the hole house anyway. With a under sized unit because its on a damper system. If one thermostats are off that part of the house is hot see my point . Any point you try make about zoning i can trump with why it sucks.
One last example. If you have return air in up stairs down stairs. Then you can not run heating and cooling separately. You cant even run heating and cooling at the same time.
This residential were talking cheap garbage. Commercial different conversation it works great. Because its done right.
Interesting keep going please I enjoy the insight
People pushing this fragile and troublesome tech on customers are unethical. The parts are junk and not robust for a residence without a call back ever two years or less. I had to do replacements seems like ever month somewhere. Callbacks make customer's mad when they see why.
Usually the unethical part is the installing company who tried to take one stage equipment and use it on a two zone system. Typically without a properly sized or controlled bypass. However a two stage system with a two speed or ecm blower, combined with an electronic static controlled bypass (or modulating dampers) can work flawlessly. This video points out spring return dampers are not reliable. The content could be supplemented with two stage and commissioning training. Given it is a repair class rather than a design tutorial it covers the majority of common two zone single stage installations.
@@rj.parker The part you don't get in a school is that people (residential) are dirty, have no money for last year and your fantasy dream ECM and modulate gas tech too expensive. The motors are outrageous $$$
@@SovereignTroll I did suggest a two speed blower (available as a psc) and modulating dampers (not gas furnace) can work reliably. The whole point is damper based zoning can and often does work flawlessly. However blindly force fitting it into two story house operating with one single stage unit is often the problem. Two separate builder grade units is certainly better but expensive and difficult to retrofit. There are good, better and best forced air zoning solutions with good being two speed blowers and modulating dampers (Jackson Systems), better (two stage scrolls and ecms) and best (communicating inverters with factory integrated modulating dampers - Trane, Carrier, others). Every unit these days has sensitive electronics somewhere, so whole house surge suppressors are now code and should be retrofit in most cases (as easy as a $100 breaker style suppressor).
Amen brother.
Zoning systems for the most part are unnecessary and they are cheaply made.
I find it unethical too.
The zone models with those little belts are callbacks for sure
"You almost always have a customer that is dissatisfied with their Zone System.
That is so true it made me laugh.
I have worked on zone systems since 1996 and have yet to see any of them really perform like they are supposed to. And they do have so many issues it makes you wonder if it's worth it.
If the system and the ductwork are sized right a zoning system is not needed. Better to avoid it.
do you think a properly sized hvac system replaces zoning for areas of different humidity and insulation qualities? like my first floor vs my basement which are on the same system, but the basement is always 3-4 degrees colder than the first floor and it causes comfort problems in both heating and cooling season. the basement floor is finished and not insulated against the concrete foundation
@@shoyrushoyru What you are talking about is one of the things that zoning tries to overcome but often fails to do so. Let me ask you this. Was your basement originally finished off when the house was built or did you have that done after the fact?
@@seanmathews1826 we had it finished after the fact and upgraded to a larger air exchanger and larger AC unit outside so that they can feed the first floor and basement. the basement has fiberglass insulation on all the walls but the floor is tiled right against the concrete.. unfortunately i dont think we could even think about zoning as all the basement vents are tapped off the same main supply and return ducts from the first floor instead of being run separately to the exchanger unit
@@shoyrushoyru It's very good that you upsized to a larger system. But be aware that basements are inherently cooler than the rest if the house. Hopefully they also added a return duct in that area.
Often times the problems of balanced heating and cooling in a home can be solved by simply adjusting the registers in each room to get the amount of airflow to each room without spending thousands of dollars on zoning.
Many times I have encountered people who have zoning and it just doesn't work as well as advertised.
@@seanmathews1826 they added two return ducts in the area. the largest one in the main living area, and a smaller one in one of the bigger sectioned-off rooms. i wonder if partially closing down some registers on the first floor would help the basement at all get some more of the airflow. like it isnt catastrophic but it is definitely a comfort nuisance at times. it probably doesnt really help that the ceiling registers placed in the basement don't seem to really close, but are just like directional adjustments. i want to mention that it means a lot to me that you are having this calm and wholesome conversation with me on this random topic. it warms my heart
Can you guys send a link for the entire video there is a lot of stuff that was not covered in this short clip like the bypass, more on the wiring that I would like to see thank you
My Board is a Honeywell TrolAtemp with 3 Zones. My home only has 2. After checking the airflow at the vents, I determined that my downstairs Zone Damper (Zone1), was always on. I checked in the attic with my volt meter to find that no voltage was being sent to shut the Zone 1 damper, when Zone 2 was the only active zone. I shut down the system and carefully moved the wires from Zone 1 to Zone 3 and it fixed the problem. I'm sure I'll have to change out the board at some point. Your video gave me just enough information to trouble shoot what was going on. The switch to Zone 3 was mainly a trial, to see if the damper was good or bad. After trying the upstairs and downstairs thermostats several times in different configurations, and watching to see how the board would react. I decided to leave it that way. There was one instants when Zone 1 came on for some reason and shut down the compressor, but within 2 minutes it shut itself back off and Zone 2 and 3 took back over. Feel free to comment if there's a reason I shouldn't run the unit using Zone 2 and 3 vrs. Zone 1 and 2.
Residential zoning systems are garbage. Rip that crap out or have the customer call somebody else. Customers hate them, technicians hate them.
Thank you for making the video! I learned something. Didn’t know about why a dedicated transformer was needed for the zone board. You guys talked about the DATS a bit but didn’t really get into why it’s used/needed for the zone board.
DATS is used to control the equipment based on temperature.
It can stage equipment up or down, shut off conditioning of the air completely.
Good video, but was hoping bypass dampers would have been part of it.
Thanks, but the camera man. smh
I have confirmed my T9s are wired correctly, according to HW, but it seems two zones within the HZ322 cannot run at the same time. Is this typical? I am assuming that based on your depiction both dampers would be open to allow this. I did have a White wire going to W and a Black to W2X2 which showed a conflict with Auxiliary on T9 and HW said to disconnect the white. Old thermostat Trane TCONT401. Thank You
Thank you guys for putting this up! Answered every question I had! Time to climb in this attic 😩
We bought a new actuator & now the air won't shut off. It stays in the open position. Could the problem be the mother board? We have a 2 zone system.
Has the newer Honeywell damper motors gotten better? I ask because I went through at least three and the motor would heat to the point the plastic gear it was driving would strip from the teeth softening. I would then get a continuing click when the motor is energized from stripped gear area. I since disconnected the motors (2) and they stay in the open position (about 10 years ago). We don't use the upstairs often, so I just close the vents in each room. I want to get it back to working properly. My panel is a Honeywell EMM-3U. I am only using two zones & the board does have M1, M4 & M6 so I'm leaning towards a three wire motor (because of my past experience with return spring type motors) and if so, what would be a good replacement? I could always add a extension to the damper rod if required.
Thank you very much in advance,
Christopher Brown
Does a Power-Open/Power-Close damper use less power than a Power-Close/Spring-Open damper? I'd be using a Lennox control board (10C16) that I assume sends the open/close signal continuously. I'm thinking/hoping the PO/PC only draws current when it's moving, while I suspect a PC/SO uses current all the time it is closed. Maybe it's negligible and I should stop worrying about it, but I'm trying to choose what components to buy and trying to make everything as optimal as possible.
hi Im in the UK and just starting out, here we mostly have Belimo valves which as good as they are for my project I just need a basic open close air damper, can you recommend Andy manufactures ? Thanks
The problem I have right now is one of the ZoneFirst damper is stuck open even when the red light on the motor is red. How do I go about this?
I’ve had issues with high limit going off cause of a bypass damper. In my experience, bleeding off zones works best. I’ve done both and bleeding off has been more successful for me. Just my take.
The bypass damper is the most crucial component in zoning applications. If not setup up properly, there will be high limit issues in heating and coil freezing issues in cooling. This is especially important on single stage equipment. If no bypass damper is used, then minimum flow rates at each zone need to be set properly. There are also airflow balancing and static pressure settings to consider. Otherwise, there will be premature component failures, i.e. compressor; heat exchanger.
Not to mention static pressure issues
Thank you so much for all the WORK you do guys 🙏🙏
Your cameraman is going to give me an epileptic seizure 🫨😵💫
Generally speaking what is the range cost of installing zone dampers with panel ?
Great presentation. Y’all should consider looking into Arzel Zoning
But is he intentionally trying to look like a sleepy salesman from the 1970s?
Enjoyed the video & got refreshed. Through me into a zone system start up & its taking me hours. Send me to diagnose one & I'm good. I like that you said the attic is the last check! Need to use your best tools first, eyes,ears,nose & touch!
Do you guys have a mini split video as well?
Mini Splits are a real bugger because they can differ so much from one manufacturer to the next.
Nice presentation Bert 👏 👌
Thanks for vídeos keep them coming😎👍🏼💪🏼
Has anyone ever told you that you look like Josh Brolin haha
Use arzel neumatic dampers. Less things to go wrong.
I know very little about HVAC but know I have a 2 zone system and have been searching for a "smart damper" why isn't or hasn't one been made yet? seems pretty logical for me to be able to open and close the damper to control the heat. I was told if some are closed off it will suffocate the furnace... ?? love to hear from those that know. THANKS
Dampers are controlled by thermostats. There are smart thermostats.
@@chrisb2388 true. I think I’m dampers don’t work as they should! I’d love to be able to override um
i have a bryant evo /carrier infinity? with 4 zones. my zone dampers buzz constantly in any position. i'm assuming these systems are much smarter in that if someone calls for more air which causes the blower to increase rpm, then some of the other zone dampers will actually close a little more (position 1-15?) in order to regulate the flow and send more air to the zone that's calling, am i right? i wish i could fly you to texas like OG matt does and pay you to look at my new home system, i already had a blower motor ecm fail and now rust on the 4" filter mesh from condensate dripping down from the vertical A coil, not to mention high static pressure and insufficient return, too much air flow in certain zones, etc.
You need to get a factory trained Carrier variable speed tech from another company to inspect and repair your system. It is likely to be incorrectly installed and commissioned. Typically builders use low bid contractors who are used to installing single stage no zone systems. Having them try to fix their own install never works. Don't let their "guarantee" force you into accepting bad results from the installing company.
Carrier zone dampers are NOT like the ones in this video!!!
The ones in this video are 100% open/closed.
Carrier's are multi position, like you stated 1-15, and are controlled based on temp, static and demand.
You need someone who knows Carrier equipment!!!