💥Clubhouse Discussion w/ Darth Dawkins (Darth Rage Quits)💥Discussion about Epistemology-Ontology-...
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- Опубликовано: 15 окт 2024
- After many discussions with Darth on his presuppositionalism and conflating epistemology vs ontology, I have mod powers in this discussion for a change. Don't want to miss this one that ends in a fiery exchange before Darth rage quits.
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Great patience by Eddie to let DD keep talking his gibberish before the conversation ended in the usual DD rage quit
Eddie schooled old Darth and he did so politely. Darth as usual, doesn't want to understand and rage quits.
This is the calmest I’ve ever seen Darth. It’s unnatural.
It's Iike an ape wearing a suit
Except at the end when Darth realized he can’t ’politely bully’ Eddie into agreement and he blew a gasket and rage quit.
@@davids11131113he blew a gasket when Eddie told him that he didn't know the difference between concrete and abstract.😂
Eddie asked darth direct questions ,which he never anserwed
This very succinctly means, Eddie belongs in the set of everyone that has ever asked Gary a question.
@@Qzopr1 By Eddie, do you mean the chronological stacking of conscious states called 'Eddie'?
Darth has the worst analogies ever, and when any of it is questioned he just flips out and starts raging he’s such a psycho
What does "rooted" mean, and what does "grounded" mean, and what does "ultimate in reality" mean? Are these meant to be obvious? Because they're not to me.
Nope. Theyre specifically chosen to be vague and confusing. Hes just dishonest.
We all wish we were as clever as darth!!!!!😂😂😂😂
Right, I’ve always been asking what these presup assertions even mean they don’t make any sense to me when Darth just says ‘Facts must be ultimately grounded and referenced by an ultimate being’ …. ok that’s a claim, what’s the argument for it.
Even the singular "marble" is abstract. Like, the thing the word points to is empirically concrete, but giving it an identity is imposing an abstraction onto the empirically observed thing.
This is cog sci 101 - top down and bottom up processing.
When someone asks you a question, and you answer no, the response should not be "yes it is". If, that is, you are trying to communicate with another person. You could of course ask "why not?" or "could you explain further?"
Or give some reason as to why Eddie were wrong at least. 😂
DeeDee just bickers all the time.
😂 So true, I laugh whenever I heard Darth ask someone a question and when they answer Darth says ‘No, the answer is no, m’kay are we clear now?’ …. just over the top malignant narcissism wow
Well, Darth is not interested in doing that. He has a script with pre-assumed conclusions that you must accept in order for his narrative to have justification. This is why he forces people down predetermined paths to the extent that he will not relent on a question until it's answered to his specifications.
The narcissism is as obvious as the sun in a clear cloudless sky.
Darth must have been ignored a lot in the past. His pathological obsession with every single one of his questions being answered prevents a constructive conversation taking place. As soon as he interrupts someone's initial point to ask a question, it starts a never-ending chain of questions that *must* be answered, and the original point is never completed.
Because of the script. He cannot operate without it, so if his interlocutor asks him a question that disrupts his script, he can't proceed.
I recommend looking up what Obscurantism is. That's what atheists are doing if they refuse to answer questions about their worldview in a worldview debate.
It's not the kind of thing that you can just not answer, in this context. Because paradigm-level debates are Worldview VS Worldview.
Plus all Darth questions must be answered how he wants too, or else he flips out insults the person and runs away. ‘no eddie, the answer is ‘yes’, are we clear now?’ It’s just pathetic.
Darth doesn't converse, he interrogates. It doesn't matter what answer is given unless it fits the script, and if the a swer doesn't fit the script then he will wear down the victim with repetition and abuse until they twist their answer to fit the script in order to continue the 'conversation'.
In darths world, does a dog have an epistimology of truth? If not, how can a dog know that its dinner time or recognize the person who feeds them?
...and according to his "philosophy of factness" the dog knows god because god has revealed himself to his creation and dogs are part of his creation there for dogs believe in god and since only the christian god has all the qualities to adhere to what god should be considering we tailor made how we perceive and judge those qualities so that only the christian could fit it, it means that dogs believe in Christ. QED all dogs and cats are christian, in fact all living things in the ENTIRE universe are christian no matter if they have ever heard about christ or not. Actually... even neanderthals where christian if you follow what DD considers 'logical'
Thanks for posting this one 👍
Eddie is very smart with communication . Darth is an embarrassment to honest debates . Persecution complex
Darth sitting there arguing about marbles in a bag, what a clown
Darth at 45 mins in and forgets he's talking to a philosopher!!
Comedy gold😂😂😂😂
48 mins....silence😂😂😂😂😂😂
Darth is a little prickly, you have to allow a huge amount of room for his ego.
Philosophy can sometimes seem like trying to think beyond our limitations, and terminology seems to be a bit arbitrary how each person sees it.
He's not just prickly, he literally has Narcissistic Personality Disorder. If you listen to his conversations on his own Discord channel, he dominates the conversations with an iron fist and ubiquitously poisons the well while gaslighting anyone that calls out his fallacious reasoning (almost all his arguments are straw men, special pleading, question begging, and well poisoning and people point it out) and immediately booting them.
Im saving this to watch tomorrow. I already know my man eddie is gonna break Darths ego
Darth; "youre not understanding what the problem is"
Me; its totally you darth ffs!!!!
😂😂😂
@@BruteFactsPodcast Darth screwed up that Getier case example so bad I was just laughing as he stumbled and bumbled thru it, and the funny part about it is long ago Jack Angstreich beat Darth over the head with that ‘cardboard sheep in the field’ and made him look bad so now Darth has taken that case, changed it around a little and attempts to beat up other people with it, but of course he’s doing it wrong, he’s Darth.
‘The means by which we know things’ ….yea to me that would be ‘experience’. Like ‘fire is hot’ is a fact, ‘grounding’ in that would be when people touched something hot and got burned so now it’s a demonstrated fact we know. DeeDee just wants to add ‘Yea well but what’s the foundation to that? Bible god see?’ Ok well that’s an assertion, your claim.
Presup is the lowest, laziest, most kindergarten form of apologetic. The ontological argument is up there, though. Presup tries to define a deity into existence, ontological tries to imagine one into existence.
27:00 There it is: DD checkmated. Lights out. Game over. Folded like a lawn chair. So what's his response? LMAO To tell the philosopher in the room how his script is 'philosophy.'
Siamese twins analogy makes no sense as a parallel to the "reciprocal " between Ont. and Epist.
Darth it’s the worst ever at analogies, he’s so terrible at them.
Either X is real, or its illusory is not a true dichotomy.
That would mean that anything not illusory is real.
Is Darth Vader illusory?
Darths arguments are mostly composed of false dichotomies.
The claim that you can, is even more absurd when you're discussing the possible existence of "disembodied minds" that provide a "grounding for all facts and knowledge", because it implies you know things about reality that you can't possibly know. There is absolutely no way that the law of excluded middle can be applied to the question of the existence of a god, because you have to be able to say 'I don't know'.
"I start with my own self consciousness"
This...
My dad suffered from a period of hallucinations and was willing to take actions in "reality" to mitigate the situation. My mom knew he was hallucinating obviously but she didn't understand that it was "real" to him. So the question in such a case to DD would be; how does one decide when to trust your experience when you are the one having the hallucinations? Can your experience be incorrect?
The answer isn't "God dunnit" but empirical consensus. You call the authorities, check the situation and decide which is more reliable, there being a house full of people or an old guy not working properly at the moment.
DD could be a schizophrenic bully and thanks to the internet, we are able to get to experience it safely from our own devices.
ALL presups borrow from MY world view to try to justify their own.
...and also I presuppose and build back from there to my self consciousness. Fabulous
P1; If Gary's god exists he would make himself known to me.
P2: No god has made itself known to me.
Conclusion: Gary's god doesn't exist.
Does Gary accept logic?
That’s the argument DeeDee can’t handle yep. And it’s his own stated position.
No he doesn't!!
He saw his opportunity to run and took it
He buggered outta there FAST!
This is what happens when darth uses his small amount of understanding against someone who actually understands!
Conclusion; darth is full of sh*t!!
This just goes to show that the only times DD 'wins' a debate is when he has mod powers to oppress his interlocutor.
His Discord clown shows are insufferable well poisoning and gaslighting.
DD sounds like he's not doing soo well. He may not be around for much longer. Gonna be a shame to lose such a great clown.
Funny to see Darth still struggling with Gettier cases.
It doesn’t fit well with his script.
It’s so funny when I heard Darth going into the cardboard cutout of the sheep in the field, Jack Angstreich once was beating Darth with that example in an old argument and here Darth is trying to use it but he gets it completely wrong and doesn’t understand it. What a clown.
Darth is a gibberish generator who gets lost any time he is pushed off his script. It's easy to discern when he realizes he's out of his depth. He starts stringing together ad homs and "threatening" to leave...
DeeDee becomes fhushterated.
He seems to be a hardcore objectivist so his "script" or ego doesn't allow for a grey scale even though he moves through grey scales all the time. So it's either black or white and he is set on black, so everything is black. If it's not black, it's white but then you can't agree and he has to bail out.
24:16 here we are: Please let me assume and assert, as you know I will never be able to grasp I am assuming and asserting.
Darth’s assertion that facts loose there meaning without referencing God is just vacuous nonsense. Great job Eddie 🙏❤
DeeDee started sensing he was losing on every issue true dichotomies gettier cases epistemology ontology all of it so he wraps it up with some anger and his final argument ‘hard solipsism’ as usual 🙄
It’s easy to get confused between epistemology and ontology if your position requires there to be a confusion between epistemology and ontology! DD had the chance to learn something here, but he’s too fixed on being an ignorant teacher. 😂
But a main pillar of Darths presup is purposely conflating ontology and epistemology, and it’s been pointed out to him numerous times but he just keeps doing it. At this point he has to know he’s doing it when he frequently starts interactions with ‘What is it you believe?…Ok well how do you know that for certain?’ …….now he beats the person over the head with how he can’t know anything for certain he admitted it but I can it was revealed to me in a way I can’t be wrong…..and that’s his whole schtick really.
I feel like the conversation went off the rails there at the end, and what even was the importance of whether the bag was some concrete glue for the set of marbles?
Darth's railroading begins at 9:15.
48:20 don't ever tell me I'm wrong, I'm never wrong! 😂
Darth painted into the corner, predictably throws a tantrum accuses Eddie of ‘childish behavior’ and rage quits runs away. 🙄
Two separate categories . He knows that .
I'm at 19:29 and all I'm hearing is word salad. Like, cold pasta salad... Maybe it's because I never read/study these concepts and have no idea about them, but it just genuinely seems like he's making things far more complicated than they need be
He is and I wrestle with whether he knows it and is being intentionally obtuse, or if he really doesn't grasp the concepts and foundational differences. While ontology can be diffucult to fully grasp at first, it is as simple as:
Epestimic Question - How do we know X or come to know X, are we justified in believing X, when is belief in X knowledge, etc.
Ontological Question - (assuming X exists) How does X exist, what accounts for the existence X, what is the nature of the existence of X, etc.
@@BruteFactsPodcast 1 of Darths main pillars of his presup stuff is asking people ‘What is it that you believe?’….then whatever the person says ‘Oh well how do you know that for certain?’ … I didn’t say I know it for certain I said what my belief is, that’s 2 very different things, but Darth doesn’t want to hear that he just now wants to beat the opponent over his head with hard solipsism ‘Well you can’t know anything but I can because it was revealed to me in a way I can’t be wrong about it’.
It’s really kind of weird how he seems to get away with such weakness for so long. But this is what narcissists do. His bullying gets him thru a lot of it because it’s a diversion from his weak arguments ‘OH now I’m a victim everyone’s trolling and abusing me!’ 😭 oh poor Darth.
Very strange to say that ontology informs epistemology and then give an argument where ontology leads to no knowledge. If the example is the hypothetical ontology is that things come into being with spontaneity and no causation then the knowledge to an intelligent observer being would be that we know events are spontaneous and with no casual connection. The failure in the TAG is to understand that they are retrospect applying truth claims to justify their position saying that is what is intelligent - summed up in the statement - the puddle stating how the hole fits it perfect so therefore it was designed foe them. That argument can be used in any situation where the observer is using ultimate being as source because the intelligent being will still need to presuppose a truth and truth giver - our intelligence would just be mapped to the knowledge and ontology that we inhabit.
‘Fhuhshterated’
I've never heard the words litte child and Daddy sound so noxious as when Darth barfs them up. And his theoretical cookie scenario, telling a child that the cookie the child sees isn't really there, or the invisible dog ate the cookie, is so nauseating. I do wonder about the mental health of is own children. Could anyone ever imagine Darth being addressed by the honorarium, Daddy? He'd have gnawed on the word and spit it out through his teeth at the feet of his children.
Darth starts his analogy ‘Daddy daddy? Can I have the cookie?’ … yea it’s creepy. And Darth definitely has the worst analogies ever it would be a great video to have all of Darths crappy weird analogies in a compilation that would be great.
@@davids11131113 I appreciate your response. The compilations is a great idea. Daddy Dearest might be a good title.
Did God reveal this when you were a fetus (brain) or the Bible?
I wonder if darth thinks hospitals are working against gods plan!!!!
Gary's droning cocky voice makes me stomach sick. There is no doubt in my mind that he genuinely believes that he is the most intelligent human on earth.
right at 33.19 shows how daft Gary is, he is a simple mind trying to sound smart and gets owned, he has learned a few smart-sounding words but has never actually thought deeper into any of his arguments.
How does DD know that “God’s revelation” is an actual justification for his worldview and not a putative justification? This I think is the crux of the [ultimately circular] presup position wherein presups can’t, or at least don’t, do anything other than just assert that “God’s revelation” is an actual justification. I see no reason why this isn’t a putative justification disguised as some absolute truth
1 thing is certain Darths ‘Gods revelation’ relies upon his sense perception which he tells others can’t be relied upon, so he’s a hypocrite.
Composition fallacy!
‘Daddy daddy can I have the cupcake on the table there?’ ‘No son, there is no cupcake there anymore, because Fido our dog ate it’ ‘But dad, we don’t have a dog’….m’kay see how that works now, Eddie?’
Darth WTF are you talking about you whacko? 🙄 Darth famous for the very worst analogies ever, it’s just at a comical level.
Darth's line is interesting. It's so sad that it's manifest by people like him because his reasoning is strong. It is also shameful how he interacts with people and that he doesn't acknowledge his own limitations. To ask of someone who knows philosophy as to whether THEY understand abstracts vs concretes, and then confusing the concept of collective as concrete.
Well done
This is just mental masturbation and Gary is firing blanks.
This is what you get for sharing any of the same absurd beliefs as Darth.
Unfortunately, you conflated epistemology and ontology at one point in this debate.
That said, DD, as usual, cannot understand or admit that his _concept_ of god as an ontological foundation is itself, and arrived at through, an epistemological process which he cannot justify without further epistemic assumptions.
And the standard build of name calling and overtalking until he finally rage quits in cowardice. Typical.
Don’t over talk me!!!!
I honestly believe DD is mentally unwell. One look online of his presuppositional script that he repeats consistently, his constant bad behavior's and when confront on either with a proper answer. He will resort to personal attacks, talking over people and will threaten with leaving or kicking from the conversation. I honestly do believe he isn't all up there and can't actually come to terms with certain things with proper reasoning. I've seen quite a few presups doing this and I think it actually has to do with their mental faculties to reason.
He has Narcissistic Personality Disorder. It's really clear in his Discord clown shows. He gaslights and rules them with an iron fist, poisoning the well against any disagreement by maintaining that all people that disagree are just being deceitful and dishonest and immediately banning them for any disagreement. The only people that remain from show to show are total bootlicks. He has all the patterns of NPD.
I’d say presup is the apologetics for sociopaths.
I think it has to do with a widespread ignorance of philosophy and epistemology. Evidentialists will argue on the grounds they do because most people have a passing familiarity with the gospel stories, evolution, and other topics in the evidentialist direction. However, presups tend to be a little more clever and want to exploit the general lack of philosophy knowledge in people.
A basic understanding of Kantian philosophy defeats presups with ease. When you can account for intelligibility readily you can see all the flaws in their arguments. A basic understanding of Ockham and nominalism destroys these folks that make arguments from design (order is something our minds impose on our perceptions, it's not a property of objects in themselves).
@@saintsword23 All presup does is make the claim ‘You can’t know anything for certain, but I can because it’s been revealed to me in a way I can’t be wrong’, it’s just a baseless claim.
@@davids11131113 Ya, I agree. It's special pleading like crazy. And I totally can account for how cognition works anyways.
Darth Dawkins got collectivised 😅
it's about time darth was "invited" to a live debate. keep prodding him to do a live public debate....
Heliocentrism is true because _______?
This question would destroy Darth if anyone tried it. He has no rational justification for Heliocentrism within his own worldview. None.
This can even be done by an atheist who believes Heliocentrism is true himself. The point is that Darth cant justify Heliocentrism in his own worldview, yet he believes it. He will only be able to give a long list of fallacies
Are you implying that any Christian is required to know the truth value of any arbitrary proposition that is invoked?
@@jason335777 gary has to. His god is the truth of all things.
@@twcnz3570 I believe you made an error here. God is truth, yes. But his creation is fallible. Even Christians. For example, Paul mentions in the New Testament these new Christians that would not eat meat that was sacrificed to idols even though it was fine to do. They should come around to the truth of this, but they werent there yet.
Are you an atheist? If so, how do you ground truth at all? What is ultimate and unchanging, in atheism?
I don’t even care about ‘rational justification’ myself, I could be right I could be wrong about things, present the arguments and I’ll consider it. But even you’ve said justification has no bearing on knowledge. It’s like a person could have justification that coconuts are soft, because they’ve seen sea sponges and they’re round and soft so coconuts must be too…..big deal all this is just wankery show the evidence show the arguments and I’ll consider it. You can’t just keep saying you’ve already argued it successfully and so then I just have some problem if I don’t accept it. Fact is you DON’T have the arguments to support your assertions.
@davids11131113 You said, "I don't even care about rational justification"
Arguing with someone who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead.
Marbles in a paper bag proves god?
For a minute I thought Darth was actually going to have a conversation, but then he proceeded to run his usual shtick. It is fascinating and painful to listen to.
A must have created B
B exists
there for A has it created
and it IS NOT CIRCULAR REASON
*facepalm*
Heck Brute Facts led him all the way to make DD see that he can not know for a fact that he is not delusional and DD is so delusional that he is unable and unwilling to conceit that he could be wrong
DD saying "listen to me" = STFU and agree with me
DD getting insulting = you are right but I will never admit that
DD saying 'last chance' = I will keep saying that until it's clear that you won't yield ground and if I can't mute you, ban you of have some brown nosing mod do it for me I'll rage quit
DD saying I'll answer your question after this = hell will freeze over before I EVER will let you actually ask a question that I'll respond to that doesn't fit my narrative
DD saying "do you know blah blah blah" = him moving goal posts, throwing a dead cat on the table, obfuscating, dodging and weaving, throwing out word salad and using all kinds of terms he dug up in some philosophy 101 books so as to redirect the 'conversation' (aka his monologue)
DD saying "you did not understand my question" = you are not giving the answer according to my script
DD saying "you are dodging" = you are not giving the answer according to my script
DD saying "you are spewing word salad" = you are not giving the answer according to my script (even although it's a perfectly sound concept that you bring up)
DD saying "you are bloviating" = you are not only not giving me the 'correct' answer (according to what *I* think is correct) you are taking precious air time from me by using more than a second to answer so that mean that I will have to REPEAT the question and this time answer it according to my script
DD really should get the dosage of his meds raised.
What a poor analogy. Took about evasive .
Darth has the WORST analogies ever he’s been drooling out weird nonsensical analogies for years it’s so crazy
Darth dawkins are is just a chinese knock of ,of jordon peterson , Both of them dont have a brain cell between them.