You've clearly never studied her clothing. Westwood has NEVER made clothes in sweat shops. Her clothes are beyond seasonal fashion. You can go and buy a shirt of hers from the 70s and it's still high fashion.
She's a hypocrite..she was a punker in the 70s where all she did was also for attention seeking..joke that she's pretending to be too posh and important now 😂
@@fullredplatinum I freelanced for Westwood, making pieces for catwalk, bridle-wear and red carpet events, I know fully well how it worked. Any business is capitalism, I also know how she paid her workers. I was luckily paid well. At the time (because the wages were so low) they had a room full of clothes which were used to top up wages. Capitalism doesn’t mean it has to be a sweatshop.
I like that Carole lets Vivienne talk without interrupting. And she was right about the Spice Girls. At the time they were selling endless tat to their fans
She lived with Malcolm McClaren. The biggest hype man in the history of the music business. He promoted anything that was grotesque, and shocking, to make money. The Spice Girls were grotesque and shocking in their banality. Maybe if they had been more crude, she would have approved?
"I am really morally outraged" "The haunting fear that somebody somewhere might be having a good time. I don't agree with allowing these people to have this moral outrage - it's really just a mask for their envy" Her own words in the exact same interview.
This is what you get when people in the rag trade are taken seriously as cultural commentators, Malcom McLaren was exactly the same, full of self importance. Her gear is now available only to people with more money than sense. Nothing wrong with a pair of jeans.
I mean def something wrong if they’re fast fashion (exploitative production, designed to last < 1 year). I think she’s def being hypocritical/ lofty, but the points she is making about fast fashion aren’t untrue, either.
What she's saying is that people are not outraged for the right reasons. Companies are selling fast fashion exploiting trends and this is sitting right with people. On the other hand, they're outraged by vevienne's brand even tho she believed in individualism and self-expression and style through clothes. Can't believe you just focused on a spoken "i am/i am not" contradiction and missed the whole point.
She invented the punk style in the 70s, with the Sex Pistols, for f's sake! And here she's complaining like Downton Abbey's dowager countess about "these spice girls" who tell kids to be daring. The irony is at 100!
She told the truth, the spice girls were overrated and all about marketing and promotion. They never remained relevant or trend on twitter or tiktok for their music. They don't resonate with future generations because their music was basic and juvenile. Totally vacant and lacking in substance and depth.
The spice girls may have been made into a marketing machine, they themselves would say they sold out under their management at the time. However I think for you to say the music lacked depth and substance because it hasn't trended on tiktok or twitter is ridiculous. The Spice Girls wrote about the importance of friendship, safe sex, the dangers of fame etc. I dont think those topics lack substance. Their music resonated with a generation of (majority) young girls and women and their girl power ethos was many young girls first experience or exposure to a form of feminism. The spice girls legacy doesn't solely lie on the songs, it lies on impact and impression on the youth of the 90s. To write them off is a mistake, I went to their tour in 2019 and there were three generations of fans there. Everything from children up to grandmothers. I see gen z out in the street wearing spice girls t shirts, I saw Melanie C at a festival last year, loads of the youth of today singing along to the couple of spice girls hits she performed in the setlist. They may not have been a tiktok trend yet but they can sell out of a stadium tour one member down and are an influence on girl groups on female artists to this day. You wouldnt have artists like Adele or bands like Blackpink without the spice girls, both acts heavily influenced and inspired by them.
Just because their not trending on tik Tok and twitter does not mean they do not resonate with future generations . I just started listening to them and their music is great if you don’t like it that’s you- sincerely a gen Z now have a great day boomer
It's hilarious that Vivienne is talking about growing without education and style.. considering that she grew up as a punk and owning a shop called 'Sex' which specialized in leather fetish gear is a freaking joke 😂😂
I love Vivienne and I also love the Spice girls too, they all are huge influences on me, I love Vivienne designs of course they’re too expensive for me to get, but if I had thousands of £ I would’ve got nearly every clothing and shoes 👠 she had created, Rest in power VW.
I was a bit miffed that they released Wannabe a week before I was due to stay in an apartment complex in Majorca, with a nightly poolside disco that you could hear in the apartments.
It’s not, it’s anti conformity and slightly anti capitalist views being preeched that we shouldn’t all just be put into one box to make it easier for big business profit margins to go up. Look at where we are 20 odd years later paying £120 for a pair of cheap tatt Nike’s that probably cost about a tenner to make. She was kinda predicting the future. And it’s very rare working class folk are classist, it’d just be stupid because they’d be attacking themselves
The point is Spice Girls is trashist and too much trash marketed at impressionable girls to fleece their parents for trash and more trash there goes the cash.
@@90sHONEY Actually, she turned away from "Punk" when it became clear that they didn't actually care about changing the World. It was corporations and marketeers who commercialized punk,, not Westwood. Some punks kept going as is and some moved on. You're talking out of your ass.
Bitter. However you dees it up they were just girls making the best of themselves. Good for them - how hateful to say they had no upbringing. Geris dress made fashion history in the 90’s. A tea towel - what are hers ? Naomi Campbell slipping up. Big deal
She comes off as a hypocrite and snob here. I don't like the Spice Girls either but she was person behind the image of a Punk band. The same thing she described the Spice Girls is same thing people said about the Sex Pistols.
Meanwhile: "Geri Horner receives honorary degree from Sheffield Hallam University in recognition of her activism for women and children." And said this at her acceptance speech: "I sincerely believe education is a superpower, supporting young people with the confidence, perspective and experience to pursue their life goals and dreams." - Daily Mail (Source) So...basically, Geri was underestimated just because she is famous and chose to empower women in a different way earlier in her career. But instead of seeing the Spice Girls as evolving individuals, Vivienne chose to see them as a group of samey girls with nothing much to offer the world, which is the opposite of the Spice Girls's message.
@@BLTKellys it does it means you have done something that has changed/ impacted the world or a school and in the case of Geri it was the world case closed 😘
As much as I love Vivienne Westwood, and I was huge Spice Girls fan when I was a kid, I have to say Vivienne is being a hypocritical here, sort of. Back in the 70s she was an opportunist , regarding the Sex Pistols. They were the same - No education, talent could be also argued about, because to be a punk, you don't need one to produce music (don't get me wrong, later I was into punk and goth and all the sub genders) She in a sense was also trying to get extra fame for dressing the band.
That popular culture is a contradiction in terms. Culture can never be popular because it takes taste and time and effort and if something is popular it can never be considered culture. Vivienne is talking about mass marketing, consumerism and the progaganda of advertising to promote products as lifestyle. She's actually correct. We are trained to be consumers and always wanting the next thing. She later explains that manufacturers don't want to produce complicated garments, there's no money in it, they want machines that can be programmed to churn out mass manufactured garments of simplistic design because there are less overheads in their production.
@@catschorus4684 I can agree with that element... that consumerism and capitalism destroys individuality, but one of the things that the Spice Girls did very well was actually showcase a group of very different, individual women who had different looks, personalities and interests... it allowed young women to not only feel empowered but also to identify with one of the women as well. Yes the group became commercial, and I can agree that they had limited talent that they were able to market very well, but they wrote their own music for the most part and broke away from the management that tried to control them so they could be in charge of their own careers. I don't see anything wrong with that as a role model for women and girls in that time. Also, they were really the ONLY female led group at the time they were formed... it was all about boy bands and individual artists, like Madonna, Janet and Whitney.
@@graphiquejack All the other waffle aside - just the music part. Just an actual song. They provided vocals. What else? Nothing. Ok - singers. Mediocre at best. Writing - they're given writing credits. Lyrics? Music? I'd love to know how much input they really had. Every track on three albums has other writers. The people that are the real talent probably? I don't see a lot of difference between them and say Vengaboys. They were big for 2-3 years and that's it - gone. They were attractive, fun, they could dance a bit fronting well produced pop. I don't know about the empowerment gimmick. What's their message? What if you don't make it as a pop star? None of them could've been anything else. I don't think they are a great example to anyone. I take it they all would've been school drop-outs - or went to dance / drama school etc I'm actually a bit of a fan and I really like a few of their songs and I know the bridge to Wannabe. Who Do You Think You Are is fantastic. I just see them for what they were. Another pop group.
@@moaningpheromones Dont you remember the silly girl power movement they were the face off while showing their arses in skimpy outfits? I'm not surprised theyre the antithesis of anything vivienne westwood is about.
Talking about spice girls, they were representing nothing but a great bullshit, to me and to many other people at the time, not only for Vivian Westwood. Must say i'm only european, not german-I like only the german names.
Christ, but the fact that she didn't do exactly the same thing as part of the Pistols machine doesn't even phase her. Gerri's union flag dress is as iconic as anything that Westwood ever created. Were the Spice Girls boorish and working class and stupid? Yes, but so were the Pistols and 99% of punk bands. why does she hate 'product'? It's not like she gives her stuff away for free. zero self awareness and full of spiteful judgement. Gone right off her.
I hear what you’re saying about VW. But as far as fashion-statements go Spice Girls will only be remembered for Geri’s iconic Union Jack dress, which was a great idea but was unoriginal & the idea was ‘borrowed’ from the 1960s. Members of The Who wore similar Union Jack blazers during their Mod heyday.
I hated the Spice Girls as well and still do. They were given characters but claimed to be all about "Girl Power"?! ... There was nothing about power except being told what to do and who to be! ... I love you Vivienne, the world is poorer without you :-( ... "I would obviously have to write some lyrics" = PERFECT
@Love♥️✨ Yes, she was "hip and rebellious" and one of the most talented and influential designers in history. She also spent her last year's campaigning on social issues. What the hell is wrong with that? Your comment was moronic. I take great pleasure in knowing that an imbecile like you will do nothing with your life. You will contribute nothing. I also take pleasure in knowing that you will never forget my words.
Have to laugh at the people criticizing Vivienne in the comments, accusing her as being “classist” and “elitist.” Do some freaking research before you expose your lack of knowledge. The godmother of punk is laughing at you from the afterlife.
I don't like their music and I was born in 1970 so I remember when they first came out I thought they were all pretty and funny but I never liked their music
Imma comment here cause im seeing two opposite views but i think its more in the middle. Vivienne is in my opinion 100% right in addressing consumerism and the way the market moves, and is in every right to hate and critique it. At the time the Spice Girls were newish, and a good example, but in hindsight they are very iconic in their own right, and considered british icons themselves. The spice girls were never about music, but the ideas they embodied, which kind off mirrors the sex pistols that she was so affiliated with.
Vivienne had this way of criticising certain aspects of capitalism, whilst totally believing her own business was somehow separate to this.
You've clearly never studied her clothing. Westwood has NEVER made clothes in sweat shops. Her clothes are beyond seasonal fashion. You can go and buy a shirt of hers from the 70s and it's still high fashion.
@@fullredplatinum Regularly didn't pay her workers the minimum wage...
She's a hypocrite..she was a punker in the 70s where all she did was also for attention seeking..joke that she's pretending to be too posh and important now 😂
Ppl have ears but fail to listen.
@@fullredplatinum I freelanced for Westwood, making pieces for catwalk, bridle-wear and red carpet events, I know fully well how it worked. Any business is capitalism, I also know how she paid her workers. I was luckily paid well.
At the time (because the wages were so low) they had a room full of clothes which were used to top up wages. Capitalism doesn’t mean it has to be a sweatshop.
I like that Carole lets Vivienne talk without interrupting. And she was right about the Spice Girls. At the time they were selling endless tat to their fans
So was Westwood!!
NO different to vivienne then ?
@Yorkman7 you beat me by 9 months but my immediate thought too, and as for vivienne talk about projecting.
If you think of this as her talking about 'social media stars' or 'influencers' then she was completely correct.
She lived with Malcolm McClaren. The biggest hype man in the history of the music business. He promoted anything that was grotesque, and shocking, to make money. The Spice Girls were grotesque and shocking in their banality. Maybe if they had been more crude, she would have approved?
Vivienne was spot on with the direction of fashion playing into the hands of marketeers
indeed she nailed it 100% without emotion or bias just facts. Now look at what the world has become.
Or foreign interests !
"I am really morally outraged"
"The haunting fear that somebody somewhere might be having a good time. I don't agree with allowing these people to have this moral outrage - it's really just a mask for their envy"
Her own words in the exact same interview.
This is what you get when people in the rag trade are taken seriously as cultural commentators, Malcom McLaren was exactly the same, full of self importance. Her gear is now available only to people with more money than sense. Nothing wrong with a pair of jeans.
i know
I thought I was the only one confused lol
I mean def something wrong if they’re fast fashion (exploitative production, designed to last < 1 year). I think she’s def being hypocritical/ lofty, but the points she is making about fast fashion aren’t untrue, either.
What she's saying is that people are not outraged for the right reasons. Companies are selling fast fashion exploiting trends and this is sitting right with people. On the other hand, they're outraged by vevienne's brand even tho she believed in individualism and self-expression and style through clothes. Can't believe you just focused on a spoken "i am/i am not" contradiction and missed the whole point.
Regardless of her flaws,she's right, modern music,movies culture has just become grey,conformist sludge.
She invented the punk style in the 70s, with the Sex Pistols, for f's sake! And here she's complaining like Downton Abbey's dowager countess about "these spice girls" who tell kids to be daring. The irony is at 100!
Great great critique of consumer culture.
The moral outrage of this story,
Just spice up your life
LOL 😂
The Vivienne's way!
She told the truth, the spice girls were overrated and all about marketing and promotion. They never remained relevant or trend on twitter or tiktok for their music. They don't resonate with future generations because their music was basic and juvenile. Totally vacant and lacking in substance and depth.
On Spotify, "Wannabe" was the most streamed 1990s song by a female group or artist in 2022. So it's definitely had staying power.
The spice girls may have been made into a marketing machine, they themselves would say they sold out under their management at the time. However I think for you to say the music lacked depth and substance because it hasn't trended on tiktok or twitter is ridiculous. The Spice Girls wrote about the importance of friendship, safe sex, the dangers of fame etc. I dont think those topics lack substance. Their music resonated with a generation of (majority) young girls and women and their girl power ethos was many young girls first experience or exposure to a form of feminism. The spice girls legacy doesn't solely lie on the songs, it lies on impact and impression on the youth of the 90s. To write them off is a mistake, I went to their tour in 2019 and there were three generations of fans there. Everything from children up to grandmothers. I see gen z out in the street wearing spice girls t shirts, I saw Melanie C at a festival last year, loads of the youth of today singing along to the couple of spice girls hits she performed in the setlist. They may not have been a tiktok trend yet but they can sell out of a stadium tour one member down and are an influence on girl groups on female artists to this day. You wouldnt have artists like Adele or bands like Blackpink without the spice girls, both acts heavily influenced and inspired by them.
there music was shite ..they were a 10 year old girls fad !
Just because their not trending on tik Tok and twitter does not mean they do not resonate with future generations . I just started listening to them and their music is great if you don’t like it that’s you- sincerely a gen Z now have a great day boomer
@@Invi-fv7dd that's so great you like over rated generic formulaic terrible music of the spice girls. Thats on you.
.
Fly high , Vivienne ❣
⚘🕊
It's hilarious that Vivienne is talking about growing without education and style.. considering that she grew up as a punk and owning a shop called 'Sex' which specialized in leather fetish gear is a freaking joke 😂😂
I love Vivienne and I also love the Spice girls too, they all are huge influences on me, I love Vivienne designs of course they’re too expensive for me to get, but if I had thousands of £ I would’ve got nearly every clothing and shoes 👠 she had created, Rest in power VW.
She maybe rather ’excentric’ herself but makes a valid point here
imagine being outraged by the spice girls
The spice girls destroyed true girl power
I was a bit miffed that they released Wannabe a week before I was due to stay in an apartment complex in Majorca, with a nightly poolside disco that you could hear in the apartments.
@@annother3350 If the Spice Girls destroyed true girl power then it wasn't that powerful.
My reading of it was that she was outraged by this type of ubiquitous mediocrity which was a cash grab targeted at children.
another one with ears but fails to listen dont worry time will teach thee.
😳😲big big mistake about the Spice Girls Vivienne!!!! but I respect you and you are a ICON❤
but fashion now has become like this too tbh
No because this is so classist and out of order
bollocks. the spice girsl was fake bullshit foisted on young girls as role models
she was working class, though...
It’s not, it’s anti conformity and slightly anti capitalist views being preeched that we shouldn’t all just be put into one box to make it easier for big business profit margins to go up. Look at where we are 20 odd years later paying £120 for a pair of cheap tatt Nike’s that probably cost about a tenner to make. She was kinda predicting the future. And it’s very rare working class folk are classist, it’d just be stupid because they’d be attacking themselves
Vivian Westwood 😂 where are you from 😂
The point is Spice Girls is trashist and too much trash marketed at impressionable girls to fleece their parents for trash and more trash there goes the cash.
she is right!
she's the greatest liar hypocrit she was the original punk clothing retailer
Exactly. She made punk into pop culture and all the real punks hated it.
@@90sHONEY Actually, she turned away from "Punk" when it became clear that they didn't actually care about changing the World. It was corporations and marketeers who commercialized punk,, not Westwood. Some punks kept going as is and some moved on. You're talking out of your ass.
I agree with her.
Bitter. However you dees it up they were just girls making the best of themselves. Good for them - how hateful to say they had no upbringing. Geris dress made fashion history in the 90’s. A tea towel - what are hers ? Naomi Campbell slipping up. Big deal
Where can I find the full interview?
R.I.P Vivienne
😢😢😭
Wonderful Viviane. She's quite right too.
She was bang on about branding rubbish, just look at where we are these days...
I have a feeling her and marina diamandis would have got on because marina thrifts a lot of her clothing and she poked fun at the American dream.
She comes off as a hypocrite and snob here. I don't like the Spice Girls either but she was person behind the image of a Punk band. The same thing she described the Spice Girls is same thing people said about the Sex Pistols.
BS
@@PinderXrossNot BS at all. Someone doesn't read up on their history. Go back and look up news articles and newspapers at that time.
Meanwhile: "Geri Horner receives honorary degree from Sheffield Hallam University in recognition of her activism for women and children."
And said this at her acceptance speech: "I sincerely believe education is a superpower, supporting young people with the confidence, perspective and experience to pursue their life goals and dreams."
- Daily Mail (Source)
So...basically, Geri was underestimated just because she is famous and chose to empower women in a different way earlier in her career. But instead of seeing the Spice Girls as evolving individuals, Vivienne chose to see them as a group of samey girls with nothing much to offer the world, which is the opposite of the Spice Girls's message.
An honorary degree means nothing.
@@BLTKellys it does it means you have done something that has changed/ impacted the world or a school and in the case of Geri it was the world case closed 😘
Good Lord, her look is spectacular....
I made a look for myself, and it took hours to put together. 3 years, I saw my look on a Westwood model
My god, and what about the punks in the 70s and her shop SEX? Double standard from Viv
She's absolutely right of course just look at the state of fashion & music now.
RIP Vivienne Westwood I love you I will miss you ❤️
Mr McLaren was an Original.
2:50
She’s right; the Spice Girls were common as muck.
That’s exactly what made them so successful
Yep, trouble is nowdays all things relative they aint so bad 😢
She had style
As much as I love Vivienne Westwood, and I was huge Spice Girls fan when I was a kid, I have to say Vivienne is being a hypocritical here, sort of. Back in the 70s she was an opportunist , regarding the Sex Pistols. They were the same - No education, talent could be also argued about, because to be a punk, you don't need one to produce music (don't get me wrong, later I was into punk and goth and all the sub genders) She in a sense was also trying to get extra fame for dressing the band.
VW .. the real Queen !
It has gotten worse since 1997. It will get worse from now on.
She was/is 100% correct.
What the hell is she even saying!?!
That popular culture is a contradiction in terms. Culture can never be popular because it takes taste and time and effort and if something is popular it can never be considered culture. Vivienne is talking about mass marketing, consumerism and the progaganda of advertising to promote products as lifestyle. She's actually correct. We are trained to be consumers and always wanting the next thing. She later explains that manufacturers don't want to produce complicated garments, there's no money in it, they want machines that can be programmed to churn out mass manufactured garments of simplistic design because there are less overheads in their production.
@@catschorus4684 I can agree with that element... that consumerism and capitalism destroys individuality, but one of the things that the Spice Girls did very well was actually showcase a group of very different, individual women who had different looks, personalities and interests... it allowed young women to not only feel empowered but also to identify with one of the women as well. Yes the group became commercial, and I can agree that they had limited talent that they were able to market very well, but they wrote their own music for the most part and broke away from the management that tried to control them so they could be in charge of their own careers. I don't see anything wrong with that as a role model for women and girls in that time. Also, they were really the ONLY female led group at the time they were formed... it was all about boy bands and individual artists, like Madonna, Janet and Whitney.
@@graphiquejack All the other waffle aside - just the music part. Just an actual song. They provided vocals. What else? Nothing. Ok - singers. Mediocre at best.
Writing - they're given writing credits. Lyrics? Music? I'd love to know how much input they really had. Every track on three albums has other writers. The people that are the real talent probably? I don't see a lot of difference between them and say Vengaboys. They were big for 2-3 years and that's it - gone. They were attractive, fun, they could dance a bit fronting well produced pop.
I don't know about the empowerment gimmick. What's their message? What if you don't make it as a pop star? None of them could've been anything else. I don't think they are a great example to anyone. I take it they all would've been school drop-outs - or went to dance / drama school etc
I'm actually a bit of a fan and I really like a few of their songs and I know the bridge to Wannabe. Who Do You Think You Are is fantastic. I just see them for what they were. Another pop group.
@@moaningpheromones Dont you remember the silly girl power movement they were the face off while showing their arses in skimpy outfits? I'm not surprised theyre the antithesis of anything vivienne westwood is about.
What she is saying is that the Spice Girls are just a tool that is used by big business to control the culture of consumerism thru a fake lifestyle.
Brilliant - they really were shait.
Victoria Beckham might have something to say about Vivienne and fashion
Victoria Beckham loved Vivienne she went to Vivienne's funeral
@@cherylbaker4290 Geri loves Vivienne too
Im amazed the Spice Girls didn't respond to this.
She has a point about "The Spice Girls" though...
Vivienne - your projecting dear. Seriously
Spice Girls ENDED HER. So glad she's gone!
Talking about spice girls, they were representing nothing but a great bullshit, to me and to many other people at the time, not only for Vivian Westwood. Must say i'm only european, not german-I like only the german names.
Erm….
But isn't this just a definition of fashion?
Christ, but the fact that she didn't do exactly the same thing as part of the Pistols machine doesn't even phase her. Gerri's union flag dress is as iconic as anything that Westwood ever created. Were the Spice Girls boorish and working class and stupid? Yes, but so were the Pistols and 99% of punk bands.
why does she hate 'product'? It's not like she gives her stuff away for free. zero self awareness and full of spiteful judgement. Gone right off her.
I hear what you’re saying about VW. But as far as fashion-statements go Spice Girls will only be remembered for Geri’s iconic Union Jack dress, which was a great idea but was unoriginal & the idea was ‘borrowed’ from the 1960s. Members of The Who wore similar Union Jack blazers during their Mod heyday.
Erm viv was a punk how on earth can she call the spice girls animals
When she n all the punks spat and acted like fools
another one who just doesn't get VW at all and how she says things ... and they were crap !
I hated the Spice Girls as well and still do. They were given characters but claimed to be all about "Girl Power"?! ... There was nothing about power except being told what to do and who to be! ... I love you Vivienne, the world is poorer without you :-( ... "I would obviously have to write some lyrics" = PERFECT
Look at me I’m so hip and rebellious is all the vibes I get from this woman, sorry just don’t understand the fandom
@Love♥️✨ Yes, she was "hip and rebellious" and one of the most talented and influential designers in history. She also spent her last year's campaigning on social issues. What the hell is wrong with that? Your comment was moronic. I take great pleasure in knowing that an imbecile like you will do nothing with your life. You will contribute nothing. I also take pleasure in knowing that you will never forget my words.
smilie completely out of her depth.
Have to laugh at the people criticizing Vivienne in the comments, accusing her as being “classist” and “elitist.” Do some freaking research before you expose your lack of knowledge. The godmother of punk is laughing at you from the afterlife.
I know I know 😂
thank god someone else understand what she was about, these comment are hilariously dumb!
My god, she speacks about No Style and look to the way she is seeting, cmon
hello...duh !
What a hypocrite.
Rip
😂😂😂😂
She's right. It was loud and obnoxious to be heard.
I hate the spice pigs 🐖
I don't like their music and I was born in 1970 so I remember when they first came out I thought they were all pretty and funny but I never liked their music
Imma comment here cause im seeing two opposite views but i think its more in the middle. Vivienne is in my opinion 100% right in addressing consumerism and the way the market moves, and is in every right to hate and critique it. At the time the Spice Girls were newish, and a good example, but in hindsight they are very iconic in their own right, and considered british icons themselves. The spice girls were never about music, but the ideas they embodied, which kind off mirrors the sex pistols that she was so affiliated with.