It reminds me a lot of the case for police body cams. Pro players should jump at the opportunity to have proof that they're not cheating. There is literally no downside for legitimate players.
necroposting but I digress - not a single one, not *one* has said "YES! lockdown all the hardware and supply all peripherals. Anyone that disconnects or connects anything at any time is insta-banned and their team is disqualified. Let's prove our authenticity". In fact, they _seethe_ at that very proposition. Really gets the 'ol noggin joggin.
@guymontag5084 Yeah that's exactly what I meant, add in a keylogger too. "I play with xyz" "okay here you go". Ever leaves camera sight, anyone else touches it after opening etc team gets kicked. It's sounds a little wild but it's actually very simple in practice and would solve every single issue and accusation almost immediately - as long as there's an independent middleman handling all of it - I think that'd be the tricky part. I have a hunch that people who'd pay $$$$ for custom made cheats installed onto their mouse would have zero issues with bribing - and those invested in the pro circuit and skin market would not want to see it go to shit almost instantly. Steam makes like 50M a _month_ off of counter strike transactions alone lel. It's this weird twilight zone feel where everyone knows and they just 'lalalalalalala' with their fingers in their ears because money and the phenomenon where if you criticize something, the people who like it take it personally as if you've insulted them. "That's _MY_ game...if he's calling bullshit than he's calling me a bullshitter too.." sort of deal.
Literally one of the best videos addressing a controversy I have ever seen. Your reasoning is very solid, and you are very good at staying on that topic and explaining it without wasting words. In my opinion, this transcends video games, this is valid on the communication level.
Sadly I believe it is a matter of Reputation and money, It should be fairly easy for Valve to set things up in order to catch hackers, but can you imagine if flusha got VAC banned or shox or Krimz? Valve's reputation would be shattered if flusha was found to be cheating after all this time.
Somebody Legend yeah just look at what happened to Titan when KQLY got banned, Titan lost all sponsors and lost all their revenue and had to dissolve and cs go scene as well was effected with losing sponsors so imagine if that Happened with like 5-10 pros all from different teams, all those teams would dissolve and the cs go pro scene would die and valve would lose millions
I think this is the most riled up i've seen thorin in the last year of watching his thoughts videos. With good reason of course since he is very invested in the CS community.
When I started playing CS:GO in 2012 I did not like you Thorin, but over the years I noticed that you actually care a lot about the game and the scene and that you are not afraid to say what's on your mind and that's why I respect you now. You're a great guy, wish we had more people like you.
I believe hacks use coordinates (x,y) for information on where players are, but only register the player ID’s of 5v5 otherwise you could aimlock onto a spectator. They have no hitbox but they have a bone and a player id position
Thank you Thorin, the csgo community needed this video to be made. Whether or not there is any cheating going on in the pro scene, it's so refreshing to finally have a thorough and reasoned analysis of the problem instead of witch-hunting or blind dismissal of the accusations. I sincerely hope that Valve or tournament organizers take notice of this and actually do something to bring us a resolution.
I don’t care what people say dude, what is the most wonderful thing and the most awsome thing about you is your honesty, the fact that you see things as they really are i mean you really don’t make any compromise when it comes to esports, from what i’ve seen AT LEAST. Thank you for that, a big THANK YOU.I hope you see my comment and aknowledge that someone out there apppreciates your work and your thoughts.Thank you @Thooorin for you work and dedication!!!
The part about keeping silent made me think of that line, "the best teachers the ones who show you where to look, but don't tell you what to see." Love the content Thorin, even if I'm a bit late.
I think the absolutely Worst part about no one taking an action towards cheating is that it takes a lot from the enjoyment of actually good moments , with doubt and fear of cheats.
I think 99% of csgo players forget Valves point of view in banning cheaters. When you see these suspicious cheating clips in youtube or linked from HLTV, you see tons of comments regarding how everyone who thinks there can be cheaters on pro scene you see these comments immediately to defend pros "oh gn 1 spotted" or "pros dont cheat, you just noob". If you think there are no such thing as hackers in pro scene, ask yourself this guestion. Why would Valve risk one of their greatest money makers (CSGO) by banning every single cheater in the game? Imagine Valve would suddenly ban 3-5 players from pro scene. Think how the community would react to that. If they would ban players in pro scene it would probably mean huge collapse in skin economy + players leaving the game because the creditability is gone. What would be the point to play a game where even pro players cheat who still get their money from majors even if they cheat and Valve allows this in their quiet mind. Does Valve know how many pro players are cheating? Probably yes. Why they dont ban them? They do not want csgo go to crisis. Can someone else than Valve gather evidence from pro scene hacks and publish the names + evidence if there is any pro player who cheat? No, because why would the community trust some random guy with his so called "evidence" and if the hacker has not been caught by VAC, hes not cheater. The one who comes forward with his "evidence" is probably one of those gn1 noobs who think everyone hacks. :)
A lot of people forget to turn interpolation off when they send you clips. Make sure interpolation is off (so you can see their actual mouse movements) The one created about Fallen recently for example had interpolation on. The interpolation made it look like he did a perfect "L" shape that looked really inhuman. With interpolation off you can clearly see it was just a curved flick shot.
Silvers, innocent until proven guilty, that is how things should be done, until there is 100% certainty in him cheating, I will defend him until that point.
+Mikulka CS how tf can you logically say that. "If there's not 100% certainty he cheated I'll defend him" so you're ignoring all the evidence against him... Nice
I am in AWE! That was the best, most logical, well presented, structured and argued treatment of this topic I have seen. And you did this off the cuff with a cold! I get so mad at times with the cognitive dissonance, you really lifted my spirits here - to know, passionate, intelligent people are out there, ready to unflinchingly know the truth. If CSGO and esports ended tomorrow, you sir, would be fine. A sharp intellect. Regards
Yeah I really don't know what the hold-up is with the mouse/keyboard cams, seems like such a no-brainer and it's not like it would be crazy expensive or anything. Pretty much every tournament has those face cams already, so... get on it. Keyloggers would be good too, just be _absolutely sure_ that they *do not* add *any* input delay for the players. As long as that is guaranteed, there's no reason to protest it. The idea of having players over to be "tested" in a controlled environment for a day or two is good, but I imagine clean players might hesitate to volunteer for fear of what someone might think if they showed up and just happened to coincidentally start underperforming heavily (like, if I've pieced recent Reddit posts together correctly, DaZeD's S-Rank performance this month vs. last month - sometimes you just inexplicably drop off for a bit). There has to be some way of guaranteeing players that as long as they are clean there's no way they'll even risk ending up regretting helping out.
I am not a big fan of Thorin at all, but his argument here is on point. There were very few things in his video that I disagreed with. Great job with this one, Thorin.
Even though its not a huge esport, competitive pokemon is over 70% cheaters. The company has clearly defined rules but doesn't want to take action since it would pretty much ban almost everyone at worlds
The camera on top of the mouse is a good idea. We can imagine a software that draw the trajectory of the mouse using the data of the game and the mouse sensitivity. With the source TV, I think it's possible. And then we can compare the trajectory with the video of the player's mouse. If the trajectories are different may be something is going on. If de aimlock does'nt happened anymore maybe something is going on too. What are they waiting for eliminate cheating (or suspicion of cheating). Great video as always !
thorin, i've been extremely nervous about the downfall of the world we live in. And indirectly you kind of made me feel better about the chances of dying when you were explaining people who had out of body experiences. "dont worry when you die, your soul just leaves your body" I dont know why but when you said that it just made me want to go live my life without the fear of death.
No one knows, so why assume anything? For you to fear death would be to assume that death is the end, which is foolish since how could anyone know what happens after we die.
i appreciate it dearly bro, i would say lost is more of a correct term. i think everyone is sad about something but im just grateful that we're all still alive haha
i think valve is fully aware flusha is/was using cheats but won't ban him because of the negative publicity and backlash on the pro scene it would cause
they didn't ban him, there software did they cant do anything if they are too stupid to use shitty cheats. It's like the whole cheating in real sports "dont be stupid enough to get caught and we wont care"
Yes! Good video! In order to legitimize csgo as a sport, you need to invest resources to find these cheaters and expose them. This is a bigger threat to long term success than the gambling scandals
Interesting overlay change. But seriously though, even if Thooorin made a video called "Flusha doesn't cheat" people would start a witch hunt against Flusha. Sometimes I feel like the CS:GO community is made up entirely of hyperactive teenagers. Then I realize that it almost is.
"Racism" is a big issue though! (Of course, in this case, "Racism" is interpreted to mean, "Absolutely normal statements that are not racially offensive in any way.")
he is fucking really suspisous though, ive been following the scence close since mid 1.6 and ive not seen anyone as suspisous over such a long period of time.
I don't want to get into the details of that. Frankly, I don't have an opinion either way, as I haven't spent enough time watching clips like that. But my point isn't whether or not he does cheat, just that the community is incredibly toxic even to players that they love to watch. It's like a community pool that looks super inviting, but once you get in you realize that the pool manager accidentally dumped his entire stores of HCl in the water. Seriously.
What do you mean start a witch hunt? The hunt was over months ago, as he's stopped being extremely suspicious. Also, I'm fairly sure Thorin is almost confident he used to cheat. Have you seen the video where he's on the RLewis show? He made some very great points. Flusha is the only one with that many suspicious clips, and some of them, like Thorin said, are just straight out baffling suspicious. Flusha is, if legit, the most suspicious legit player Thorin has ever seen in the history of CS. He has 15 times as many clips as anyone else of pro caliber, like no other pro player in the history of CS has ever looked so much like a hacker. In my opinion, it's mindboggling. I mean, yes, innocent until proven guilty, but he's guilty in my eyes. I'm fairly certain he dosnt cheat now (if he does, he's sure gotten better at hiding it), but I am also personally 100% certain he used to cheat. The amount of clips, and clips that are absolutely ludicrous, are simply too high. I enjoy having the debate about Flusha with people, problem is, that usually the people who say he doesnt cheat, are ignorant kids, that are impossible to argue with, because all they can basically say is 'you just hate fnatic lol, youre just complimenting it, flusha must be feelin so good cuz i know i do when i get called cheater in dm's lmaoo ;));)'
Pro's I think are actually cheating are: Flusha Fnx Emill0 Half the luminosity team. I mean, there's a clip of Fallen or Coldzera, idk, that aimlocked 3 different people in the span of 20 seconds. It's insane. Then fnx's final kill of the ace clutch he did on Krimz was very fishy when he was in luminosity
I do not agree when you say "if pros get the ban they deserve, cs go is dead". No, you're wrong, if valve really does the job to clean the pro scene it would be an excellent advertising for the game. Many players don't play or stop playing counter because of the cheat at every level, casual or pros same fight cause every pros have been a casual gamer before..... So, it's now to valve to do what they should have done since a long time, take the cheat problem seriously and not acting like blind people with the cheat problem. I've seen so many strange things while I was watching the majors, not only aim locks, so many illogical moves..... And when the clutch is coming or game is entering "in the money time", the craziest things happen. so strange ? No, they play for the cash, and people who got money instead of brain are acting stupidly every time. And some of those pros are really stupid.
*Certain steps that can be made. I already made a video about 8 ways Valve could prevent hackers in CSGO. Now that doesn't focus on the pro scene but ultimately allowing no internet access in lans is a huge one. Also considering majors have so many sponsors I think giving freshly opened mice, keyboards, and headsets to the players right before the match is another one. I mean opened right there in public and scrutinized down to the point they are using them. No switches or funny shit. And if you think thats overkill and adds up after all the matches are played out. They could easily auction those peripherals off for discounted prices or even high prices if people want to buy peripherals used by pros when the match is over. You could also go as far as bluetooth jams and do random checks of all players binds to ensure they don't have any aim keys. This could be done through a program that tries many different key combinations in a quick amount of time. You eliminate the internet, eliminate the peripherals and run constant scans on the computers themselves and you greatly reduce what is physically possible. Of course there are ways around this and nothing is 100% but it would make a huge difference.*
+エスタカードジャッキー "little to no evidence" you mean MANY clips in a SHORT period of time that most certainly prompt suspicion. Not many other pros have that many fishy clips, in their entire career. Not saying I know for certain. However the cause for concern was definitely there. Also consider the fact that these clips stopped being so prevalent after the accusations
Great Thorin!!! Go forward with this Topic! The Main Problem is that too much money is in the hole Industrie... And when it comes to that point that you loose a loft of money form telling this people out... Nobody will do it! I hope a change will come but i dont think so...
I respect thorin a lot for this vid now. 99% of people who hold an opinion that could influence a large community's, usually likes to stay out of topics like this or dismiss it entirely as nonsense out of fear of being judged for holding a controversial opinion. Thorin's staying true to his reputation as being outspoken and 100% truthful, no matter what backlash may result from it
(Response to Dank Arino) It's Raw Input ON and when you hold TAB, mouse stays still and moves to where your mouse is on the scoreboard when you let go of TAB... Easy explanation but you're ignorant af and tries to witch hunt people without reading into it!
cs 1.6 > CS:GO nothing more to say but atleast we have skins, that explains alot. all i can say, More money = more cheaters. thank you thorin for that video :) (CS:GO is a game to make money, not to check whos the best player)
Thorin, I've been watching your videos since a pretty long time and never cared to comment because I've often felt in agreement with your thoughs. But this time I gotta say : Man, you are a fucking genius. I've played the CS scene since 1999. I've been plagued by what I suppose to be cheat numerous times, in official - sometimes offline - events. What you propose is exactly what can get rid of any suspicions in the next events. You are wise. You think of all possibilities and try to be as open minded as possible in what to accuse and what to defend. Seriously mate, I share you passion, I share your thoughs. But your mind and intelligence could be used way beyond CS:GO. Way beyond. Just sayin'. Cheers mate, you are an inspiration. falcuma
Really enjoyed this video. I also feel that cheating is something we should not turn blindly away from. We should place pressure on the players somehow to make sure they're afraid to cheat.
Really nice comment, Thooorin. My oppinion: It`s just like in most of the other competitive sports, like track and fields, cycling, basketball, swimming, bodybuilding... you almost can`t get to the top anymore if you`re not cheating. In most of these sports you CAN`t get to the top if you`re not taking drugs. Most of us don`t want to see human performances, we want inhuman, extreme performances. Money and fame makes people sick, also there is so much pressure. Valve has absolutely no interest in busting the scene, there is too much money on the line. Look at what happened to the Tour de France, for the last couple of years our german TV did not even broadcast it cause of the doping affaire. And it will never, ever change. The human being is just whack, it is false and egoistic. It is 2016 and we have so much knowledge and still some of us live in absolut luxury and others die cause they have no food. We are watching the football em which costs millions and millions of dollars, but the refugees, who suffer cause of our countries sucking theris out left and right die in thousnds on their way to europe etc etc. Most of the people don`t even know who they are and they will never find out, blinded by media and society. it`s not about truth, it`s about image. Valve doesn`t care about the truth, thei image has to be right so they can earn lots of money, power and influence. GO FUCK YOURSELF VALVE. last major finals were a joke, really...
There's an easy way to figure out if it's a demo bug vs. something fishy: screen captures via spectators. The live in-game camera can't be on every at the same time during a match, so you get 10 spectators to in-game screen capture each player within a high level match (be it with Fraps, Dxtory, etc.) This would potentially prove or disprove demo bugs and be able to weed out smaller things. It's also easier (for now) rather than using your current idea of having keyloggers, external cameras, etc. Those could be used as further evidence, but I think taking a more simple route first is the most viable and cost-effective.
It would depend on their level of involvement ,and length. if you perma ban the cheater and they won 3 majors because of it, they all should be banned if participated. its possible maybe 1 or 2 wouldn't know though so it would be person to person basis.
@Thooorin you adress the issue of never being 100% sure if the other player is a cheater with 100% accuracy. Your opinions and wanted consequences is a hope for a lot of players.
hey thorin.. all you had to say was we have to make the CSGO majors have "mouse cameras" above every computer. Sync up the movements with the mouse. Simple. Have split screen viewing or let the spectators be able to request the mouse hand videos.
Thooorin's ideas at about 30:00 are really interesting. Like he says, I don't think I would do that if I were Valve, but if they really are worried about cheating damaging the industry that's a legitimate idea.
this, it is sad that csgo is maybe potentially just a test to see who has better cheats and that valve seemingly are also fine with giving $1m to cheaters.
I think we need more pros like Hiko that actually explain a lot of their vac shots, for instance Hiko made a full video talking about how he got that incredibly crazy smoke flick on cobble.
Get the damn mouse cameras and start purging these people from the community. We started with getting the gambling scumbags out, and we can get the cheating scumbags out too. Unless we want to have the cheaters here, of course. That's up to Valve.
+CatnamedMittens “Michael Bialas” He didn't even imply so, he was talking about people like TmarTn and Syndicate and others who lured kids into gambling and made dozens of thousands of dollars in a very shady way
It does when you own the site, then bet on stream without telling viewers they own the site or that they're even sponsored by them. They had access to the site. They could make themselves win whenever they wanted. Making people excited and wanting to play because they won insane bets.
Mr. Fridge So you're saying that because they won insane bets everyone else thinks they also win insane bets? I really feel like it is the consumers fault here.
for fnatic maybe there was 1 clip every tournament, i personally did not think they were cheating (except flusha prior DH 2014 but they werent even number 1 then). For SK there are new clips every round
Hey Thorin, I liked your reasoning, but I don't believe you're aware of the new cheating methods uncovered recently. It involves users sending packets to the server, telling the game what to do. (Example on DooM49's channel, where he talk about "packet-sending" cheaters). I've found some interesting info on a forum post titled "CSGO Packet Sniffer Proof of Concept", where they're attempting to change game values mid-game, although i'm not sure if this is a local or online method. Either way, apparently users are saying that they've been using this method for months-year(s) now, without any "VAC" or punishment. (As it's not really possible to get caught). Although where you talk about requiring new peripherals and PC's could be useful, I don't think it's in their hardware. I believe they're having other people (Possibly in the crowd, or even at home) control the outcome by sending packets of information. This would be very simple to do on an LAN server, such as the ESL cologne tournament. Actually, as i'm writing this, I've considered the idea that pro's might be paying those admins/users to open up certain security measures for their benefit. (Just a possibility, please don't take this too serious until we find out more).. It seems like there's two types of cheats.. The free or cheap $30 one that almost always result in a VAC, or the extremely well hidden one that can't be traced back to the original cheater. I believe that they're using this pack-sending exploit to their advantage, as i've seen many people talking about this recent discovery a lot.
Great shirt, great overlay, great video. Thanks for talking about it in a factual manor since everyone seems to be talking with their feelings. I don't believe anyone is cheating but something needs to be done by Valve. They need to step in and stop the confusion.
20:29 They aren’t risking anything if they’re reliant on the cheats to maintain their status as top pros. Further, if Valve aren't interested in catching them the risk is essentially 0.
Thorin is legit my favourite part of professional Csgo
totally agree
He's my favorite CS personality. He always guarantees gold when he speaks.
Especially on the desk. Even ESL recognised this and rehired him ;P
I'm edgy so I started to prefer Richard.
Most people here agree with you
I know how shox cheats. KQLY is playing on a wireless keyboard and mouse backstage
probably the most likely explantion to date lol
+mikey robinson lol pretty much
the truth has been exposed
lol
I laughed so hard :)
Slick new overlay.
thx
It looks amazing.
Very Nice
+daunjung lol
Banal comment about a graphic on a hard hitting video about cheating. 160 likes. RUclips VIEWERS.
It reminds me a lot of the case for police body cams. Pro players should jump at the opportunity to have proof that they're not cheating. There is literally no downside for legitimate players.
necroposting but I digress - not a single one, not *one* has said "YES! lockdown all the hardware and supply all peripherals. Anyone that disconnects or connects anything at any time is insta-banned and their team is disqualified. Let's prove our authenticity".
In fact, they _seethe_ at that very proposition. Really gets the 'ol noggin joggin.
@guymontag5084 Yeah that's exactly what I meant, add in a keylogger too.
"I play with xyz" "okay here you go". Ever leaves camera sight, anyone else touches it after opening etc team gets kicked.
It's sounds a little wild but it's actually very simple in practice and would solve every single issue and accusation almost immediately - as long as there's an independent middleman handling all of it - I think that'd be the tricky part.
I have a hunch that people who'd pay $$$$ for custom made cheats installed onto their mouse would have zero issues with bribing - and those invested in the pro circuit and skin market would not want to see it go to shit almost instantly. Steam makes like 50M a _month_ off of counter strike transactions alone lel. It's this weird twilight zone feel where everyone knows and they just 'lalalalalalala' with their fingers in their ears because money and the phenomenon where if you criticize something, the people who like it take it personally as if you've insulted them.
"That's _MY_ game...if he's calling bullshit than he's calling me a bullshitter too.." sort of deal.
Thorin is the reason i wake up in the morning and feel that my life is worth something.
Same, sometimes.
Same always.
+Bulletproof_Gaming CS:GO mondays....
How cute......
+Dylan Gormley any thing can give your life meaning
Literally one of the best videos addressing a controversy I have ever seen. Your reasoning is very solid, and you are very good at staying on that topic and explaining it without wasting words. In my opinion, this transcends video games, this is valid on the communication level.
FrankieseshyFilms I agree, the Hitchens and Orwell references speak to that as well.
Damn, all that skrilla was finally used for something.
what is skilla? google says its a swedish indie pop band :>
+VivaLaRazsa it's money
i think you mean skrilla mate
thank you :)
He means 'skrilla', it means money
Sadly I believe it is a matter of Reputation and money, It should be fairly easy for Valve to set things up in order to catch hackers, but can you imagine if flusha got VAC banned or shox or Krimz? Valve's reputation would be shattered if flusha was found to be cheating after all this time.
Somebody Legend yeah just look at what happened to Titan when KQLY got banned, Titan lost all sponsors and lost all their revenue and had to dissolve and cs go scene as well was effected with losing sponsors so imagine if that Happened with like 5-10 pros all from different teams, all those teams would dissolve and the cs go pro scene would die and valve would lose millions
tom lea exactly. Its rotten to the core and valve very likely knows.
Thorin has the size to reach out to Valve and this videos are the best way to do it!
I think this is the most riled up i've seen thorin in the last year of watching his thoughts videos. With good reason of course since he is very invested in the CS community.
Rockin that Pink Floyd shirt
Dope.
yusssss
Fuckin sick record
When I started playing CS:GO in 2012 I did not like you Thorin, but over the years I noticed that you actually care a lot about the game and the scene and that you are not afraid to say what's on your mind and that's why I respect you now. You're a great guy, wish we had more people like you.
What about adding invisible player models in the sky or on very strange places on maps. If someone locks it should be pretty conclusive..
WhoScopes some of the more premium hacks would get around that and already do. If I assume some pros cheat. Which I dont
I believe hacks use coordinates (x,y) for information on where players are, but only register the player ID’s of 5v5 otherwise you could aimlock onto a spectator. They have no hitbox but they have a bone and a player id position
Former Government Human #4937 Spectator is not a Ingame character. Not even has a player model
Pinto 6 Times European Champions & World Champion can you read?
Does anyone else find it really satisfying when thoorin says "Says"? I love the way he pronounces the "Say" part of it, the adds the "S".
-it's past midnight, I should go to bed
-sees that Thorin uploaded a new video
-lol I guess not
basically what i thought
same
Hahaha same
+re1n1337 I always just listen to him without watching.
+1
Most of the topics that you talk about I don't have any personal investment in, but I find the logic in your videos sobering and enjoyable.
How could someone dislike this video it explains the problem of cheating and provides many examples of how to solve it like fuck
Thank you Thorin, the csgo community needed this video to be made. Whether or not there is any cheating going on in the pro scene, it's so refreshing to finally have a thorough and reasoned analysis of the problem instead of witch-hunting or blind dismissal of the accusations. I sincerely hope that Valve or tournament organizers take notice of this and actually do something to bring us a resolution.
"Burn it to the ground, burn the whole fucking thing to the ground."
-Thorin 2016
I don’t care what people say dude, what is the most wonderful thing and the most awsome thing about you is your honesty, the fact that you see things as they really are i mean you really don’t make any compromise when it comes to esports, from what i’ve seen AT LEAST. Thank you for that, a big THANK YOU.I hope you see my comment and aknowledge that someone out there apppreciates your work and your thoughts.Thank you @Thooorin for you work and dedication!!!
Proscene: "Nah no one is cheating."
Casual MM/Faceit/etc. :"You HS me trough the smoke! VAC inc. cheater."
;)
You can tell how much passion you have for this... hope Valve does something massive soon. Handcams are a necessary and for the most part inexpensive.
Thorin if you cough one more time I will become a hacker
The part about keeping silent made me think of that line, "the best teachers the ones who show you where to look, but don't tell you what to see." Love the content Thorin, even if I'm a bit late.
I think the absolutely Worst part about no one taking an action towards cheating is that it takes a lot from the enjoyment of actually good moments , with doubt and fear of cheats.
you're wearing my favorite album cover of all time, much respect!
I think 99% of csgo players forget Valves point of view in banning cheaters. When you see these suspicious cheating clips in youtube or linked from HLTV, you see tons of comments regarding how everyone who thinks there can be cheaters on pro scene you see these comments immediately to defend pros "oh gn 1 spotted" or "pros dont cheat, you just noob". If you think there are no such thing as hackers in pro scene, ask yourself this guestion. Why would Valve risk one of their greatest money makers (CSGO) by banning every single cheater in the game? Imagine Valve would suddenly ban 3-5 players from pro scene. Think how the community would react to that. If they would ban players in pro scene it would probably mean huge collapse in skin economy + players leaving the game because the creditability is gone. What would be the point to play a game where even pro players cheat who still get their money from majors even if they cheat and Valve allows this in their quiet mind. Does Valve know how many pro players are cheating? Probably yes. Why they dont ban them? They do not want csgo go to crisis. Can someone else than Valve gather evidence from pro scene hacks and publish the names + evidence if there is any pro player who cheat? No, because why would the community trust some random guy with his so called "evidence" and if the hacker has not been caught by VAC, hes not cheater. The one who comes forward with his "evidence" is probably one of those gn1 noobs who think everyone hacks. :)
A lot of people forget to turn interpolation off when they send you clips. Make sure interpolation is off (so you can see their actual mouse movements)
The one created about Fallen recently for example had interpolation on. The interpolation made it look like he did a perfect "L" shape that looked really inhuman. With interpolation off you can clearly see it was just a curved flick shot.
thank you for understanding
flusha moves his mouse at a 60 degree angle in 1 tick, humanly not possible, even if u lift the mouse
watch my video about flusha for explanation, there was no aimlock or cheats...
Silvers, innocent until proven guilty, that is how things should be done, until there is 100% certainty in him cheating, I will defend him until that point.
Mikulka CS im not saying he is or not, he could of hit his mouse on his keyboard, ive done that so many times, but you need proof as you said
[MTS]ElementalGaming3 No, I don't, no proof for either side is innocent until proven guilty.
+Mikulka CS how tf can you logically say that. "If there's not 100% certainty he cheated I'll defend him" so you're ignoring all the evidence against him... Nice
I am in AWE! That was the best, most logical, well presented, structured and argued treatment of this topic I have seen. And you did this off the cuff with a cold! I get so mad at times with the cognitive dissonance, you really lifted my spirits here - to know, passionate, intelligent people are out there, ready to unflinchingly know the truth. If CSGO and esports ended tomorrow, you sir, would be fine. A sharp intellect. Regards
Finally someone actually speaks up about this...
Brilliant video. Really admire Thoorin's passion for CS. Valve bans 50 people I'll still be here.
Yeah I really don't know what the hold-up is with the mouse/keyboard cams, seems like such a no-brainer and it's not like it would be crazy expensive or anything. Pretty much every tournament has those face cams already, so... get on it.
Keyloggers would be good too, just be _absolutely sure_ that they *do not* add *any* input delay for the players. As long as that is guaranteed, there's no reason to protest it.
The idea of having players over to be "tested" in a controlled environment for a day or two is good, but I imagine clean players might hesitate to volunteer for fear of what someone might think if they showed up and just happened to coincidentally start underperforming heavily (like, if I've pieced recent Reddit posts together correctly, DaZeD's S-Rank performance this month vs. last month - sometimes you just inexplicably drop off for a bit). There has to be some way of guaranteeing players that as long as they are clean there's no way they'll even risk ending up regretting helping out.
This video was so necessary to make. Every point you made was really good, and I hope something is done about this.
Omg i just watched a 52 minute video on cheating in cs go, and then thorin releases a video on cheating? Hell yeah!
what vid did u watch?
+Joshua D its a documentary on flusha
Probably TSM Semphis' vlog
Same
Arya35 ah ok
I appreciate the sentiment near the end [about burning it all, if it means getting rid of all the cheaters] -- principle first.
wish you were here thorin
I am not a big fan of Thorin at all, but his argument here is on point. There were very few things in his video that I disagreed with. Great job with this one, Thorin.
People who i think are cheaters:
Kqly, Flusha, Coldzera, My Ex, Olofmeister, Shox, my sis, JW, emili0,
Olof? why
And why cold and jw?
hunden is a cheater
cold? haven't seen a cheating video of him yet link plz
flusha krimz shox fallen cold taco fnx niko byali k0nfig kyerbye
Even though its not a huge esport, competitive pokemon is over 70% cheaters. The company has clearly defined rules but doesn't want to take action since it would pretty much ban almost everyone at worlds
TL;DR: flusha's cheating and people are ignorant.
Fallen byali flusha fnx coldzera and mant more
+willi #nothingelse Many""""""""
shox for example lmao.
ofc
+willi #nothingelse byali is not cheating.
The camera on top of the mouse is a good idea. We can imagine a software that draw the trajectory of the mouse using the data of the game and the mouse sensitivity. With the source TV, I think it's possible. And then we can compare the trajectory with the video of the player's mouse. If the trajectories are different may be something is going on. If de aimlock does'nt happened anymore maybe something is going on too.
What are they waiting for eliminate cheating (or suspicion of cheating).
Great video as always !
Has Valve made an answer to this? I guess not... Will they ever? I guess not.. Will CSGO perish cause of the hacking problem? I guess
thorin, i've been extremely nervous about the downfall of the world we live in. And indirectly you kind of made me feel better about the chances of dying when you were explaining people who had out of body experiences. "dont worry when you die, your soul just leaves your body" I dont know why but when you said that it just made me want to go live my life without the fear of death.
You seem depressed. For real tho. U OK?
No one knows, so why assume anything? For you to fear death would be to assume that death is the end, which is foolish since how could anyone know what happens after we die.
i appreciate it dearly bro, i would say lost is more of a correct term. i think everyone is sad about something but im just grateful that we're all still alive haha
i think valve is fully aware flusha is/was using cheats but won't ban him because of the negative publicity and backlash on the pro scene it would cause
Why would they have banned KQLY then?
they didn't ban him, there software did they cant do anything if they are too stupid to use shitty cheats. It's like the whole cheating in real sports "dont be stupid enough to get caught and we wont care"
+Evan Wildenhain you put in quotes like Valve said that lol, I'm sure they don't think that way
AlexanderNA because of what thorin said. kqly hadn't won a major. having a major champion later exposed as a cheater is a BAD look.
Others have mentioned it already, but I really do like the new overlay you've got going, especially the shield/Shields in Thorin.
Yes! Good video! In order to legitimize csgo as a sport, you need to invest resources to find these cheaters and expose them. This is a bigger threat to long term success than the gambling scandals
As soon as you mentioned that you had a quote, I just knew it would be from Hitchens. Top class integrity.
new boarder !
Hi
Hi Fozzie
me gusta ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
So good it'll keep the mexicans out Kappa
+Trainer RedCS well mate, I can't TRUMP that joke
when i put thorin's videos, i sleep like a new born baby, dont mean it's boring, this is just gold
Interesting overlay change.
But seriously though, even if Thooorin made a video called "Flusha doesn't cheat" people would start a witch hunt against Flusha. Sometimes I feel like the CS:GO community is made up entirely of hyperactive teenagers.
Then I realize that it almost is.
Better than lol where you get witch hunted for being mean.
"Racism" is a big issue though! (Of course, in this case, "Racism" is interpreted to mean, "Absolutely normal statements that are not racially offensive in any way.")
he is fucking really suspisous though, ive been following the scence close since mid 1.6 and ive not seen anyone as suspisous over such a long period of time.
I don't want to get into the details of that. Frankly, I don't have an opinion either way, as I haven't spent enough time watching clips like that. But my point isn't whether or not he does cheat, just that the community is incredibly toxic even to players that they love to watch. It's like a community pool that looks super inviting, but once you get in you realize that the pool manager accidentally dumped his entire stores of HCl in the water. Seriously.
What do you mean start a witch hunt? The hunt was over months ago, as he's stopped being extremely suspicious. Also, I'm fairly sure Thorin is almost confident he used to cheat. Have you seen the video where he's on the RLewis show? He made some very great points. Flusha is the only one with that many suspicious clips, and some of them, like Thorin said, are just straight out baffling suspicious. Flusha is, if legit, the most suspicious legit player Thorin has ever seen in the history of CS. He has 15 times as many clips as anyone else of pro caliber, like no other pro player in the history of CS has ever looked so much like a hacker.
In my opinion, it's mindboggling. I mean, yes, innocent until proven guilty, but he's guilty in my eyes. I'm fairly certain he dosnt cheat now (if he does, he's sure gotten better at hiding it), but I am also personally 100% certain he used to cheat. The amount of clips, and clips that are absolutely ludicrous, are simply too high. I enjoy having the debate about Flusha with people, problem is, that usually the people who say he doesnt cheat, are ignorant kids, that are impossible to argue with, because all they can basically say is 'you just hate fnatic lol, youre just complimenting it, flusha must be feelin so good cuz i know i do when i get called cheater in dm's lmaoo ;));)'
Love you Thorin, thank you for not being silent.
Pro's I think are actually cheating are:
Flusha
Fnx
Emill0
Half the luminosity team.
I mean, there's a clip of Fallen or Coldzera, idk, that aimlocked 3 different people in the span of 20 seconds. It's insane.
Then fnx's final kill of the ace clutch he did on Krimz was very fishy when he was in luminosity
you seem like a hater
Benjamin Veizaga he is making an prediction not being buyest
Wasn't emilli0 vac banned? 🤔
Wow, Thorin made some really good arguments in this video. Hopefully some form of action is taken about this problem.
Nice job Thorin!
VAC = Valve Allows Cheats
Have to admit respect for you man! doing all these long vids in 1 take and putting the effort to clean up the community!
inb4 salty SK fans
inb4 salty shox fans
*flusha
+So New fr tho, i really think Taco and Cold is cheating
+So New So where did you get the evidence to be 100% certain about that?
I don't think any of the SK guys are cheating. I never really see anything suspicious.
nah they seem fine to me
Easy explanation for the video without being vague or missing the main question. Thorin found Dan M's channel.
I do not agree when you say "if pros get the ban they deserve, cs go is dead".
No, you're wrong, if valve really does the job to clean the pro scene it would be an excellent advertising for the game.
Many players don't play or stop playing counter because of the cheat at every level, casual or pros same fight cause every pros have been a casual gamer before.....
So, it's now to valve to do what they should have done since a long time, take the cheat problem seriously and not acting like blind people with the cheat problem.
I've seen so many strange things while I was watching the majors, not only aim locks, so many illogical moves.....
And when the clutch is coming or game is entering "in the money time", the craziest things happen.
so strange ?
No, they play for the cash, and people who got money instead of brain are acting stupidly every time.
And some of those pros are really stupid.
*Certain steps that can be made. I already made a video about 8 ways Valve could prevent hackers in CSGO. Now that doesn't focus on the pro scene but ultimately allowing no internet access in lans is a huge one. Also considering majors have so many sponsors I think giving freshly opened mice, keyboards, and headsets to the players right before the match is another one. I mean opened right there in public and scrutinized down to the point they are using them. No switches or funny shit. And if you think thats overkill and adds up after all the matches are played out. They could easily auction those peripherals off for discounted prices or even high prices if people want to buy peripherals used by pros when the match is over. You could also go as far as bluetooth jams and do random checks of all players binds to ensure they don't have any aim keys. This could be done through a program that tries many different key combinations in a quick amount of time. You eliminate the internet, eliminate the peripherals and run constant scans on the computers themselves and you greatly reduce what is physically possible. Of course there are ways around this and nothing is 100% but it would make a huge difference.*
It's cute that everybody forgot about flusha aimlock.
Fnx and fallen then?
Hes trying harder not to be in the news as of lately but ya he did use it and probably still does.
+Agdaan Ahaan Look at Dan M's new video about fallen.
+bree bree go look at the clips and decide for yourself man. It's HIGHLY suspicious
+エスタカードジャッキー "little to no evidence" you mean MANY clips in a SHORT period of time that most certainly prompt suspicion. Not many other pros have that many fishy clips, in their entire career. Not saying I know for certain. However the cause for concern was definitely there. Also consider the fact that these clips stopped being so prevalent after the accusations
Great Thorin!!!
Go forward with this Topic!
The Main Problem is that too much money is in the hole Industrie...
And when it comes to that point that you loose a loft of money form telling this people out... Nobody will do it!
I hope a change will come but i dont think so...
this video is sponsered by Robin Rönnquist xD
also KQLYfornication 2014 never forget
XD
XdXdd hehe xd xD
XDDD comedy gold
Dream of KQLYfornication.
+CatnamedMittens “Michael Bialas” Emilio decided to take a long VACation.
Fantastic video, love the passion you have for the integrity of the scene. Reasonable solutions too.
As a superhero in training, I encourage you all to have a productive day. Falling down is how we grow. Staying down is how we die.
Wtf.
+RP I Vishous you are such a nice person
Kasp Kaspensen ikr
I respect thorin a lot for this vid now. 99% of people who hold an opinion that could influence a large community's, usually likes to stay out of topics like this or dismiss it entirely as nonsense out of fear of being judged for holding a controversial opinion. Thorin's staying true to his reputation as being outspoken and 100% truthful, no matter what backlash may result from it
Flusha witch hunt incoming in 3.. 2.. 1..
Not called a witch hunt when there is 100% proof. Check out his inferno aimlock
Dank Arino witch hunt
Did you even watch the video? You are the person he talks about at the end.
Dank Arino Saltiest comment in this video lmaoo
(Response to Dank Arino) It's Raw Input ON and when you hold TAB, mouse stays still and moves to where your mouse is on the scoreboard when you let go of TAB...
Easy explanation but you're ignorant af and tries to witch hunt people without reading into it!
Very intelligent and well thought out video Thorin, thank you for making it! So much respect man. keep the pedal down.
cs 1.6 > CS:GO nothing more to say but atleast we have skins, that explains alot. all i can say, More money = more cheaters. thank you thorin for that video :) (CS:GO is a game to make money, not to check whos the best player)
there were a shit load of pro cheaters in 1.6 including n0thing
@n0thing pls stop
valve is a company, not a god. But they are trying, trust me.
+The Ultimate Master why should we trust you?
+wayup no reason, cs employees are working on something else i feel.
Thorin, I've been watching your videos since a pretty long time and never cared to comment because I've often felt in agreement with your thoughs.
But this time I gotta say : Man, you are a fucking genius. I've played the CS scene since 1999. I've been plagued by what I suppose to be cheat numerous times, in official - sometimes offline - events.
What you propose is exactly what can get rid of any suspicions in the next events.
You are wise. You think of all possibilities and try to be as open minded as possible in what to accuse and what to defend.
Seriously mate, I share you passion, I share your thoughs.
But your mind and intelligence could be used way beyond CS:GO. Way beyond.
Just sayin'.
Cheers mate, you are an inspiration.
falcuma
So obious Shox's auto aim last major in cobble.
Valve clean the scene now or this will be ruined 4ever
Really enjoyed this video. I also feel that cheating is something we should not turn blindly away from. We should place pressure on the players somehow to make sure they're afraid to cheat.
Respect Thorin.
Really nice comment, Thooorin.
My oppinion:
It`s just like in most of the other competitive sports, like track and fields, cycling, basketball, swimming, bodybuilding... you almost can`t get to the top anymore if you`re not cheating. In most of these sports you CAN`t get to the top if you`re not taking drugs. Most of us don`t want to see human performances, we want inhuman, extreme performances. Money and fame makes people sick, also there is so much pressure. Valve has absolutely no interest in busting the scene, there is too much money on the line. Look at what happened to the Tour de France, for the last couple of years our german TV did not even broadcast it cause of the doping affaire. And it will never, ever change. The human being is just whack, it is false and egoistic. It is 2016 and we have so much knowledge and still some of us live in absolut luxury and others die cause they have no food. We are watching the football em which costs millions and millions of dollars, but the refugees, who suffer cause of our countries sucking theris out left and right die in thousnds on their way to europe etc etc. Most of the people don`t even know who they are and they will never find out, blinded by media and society. it`s not about truth, it`s about image. Valve doesn`t care about the truth, thei image has to be right so they can earn lots of money, power and influence. GO FUCK YOURSELF VALVE.
last major finals were a joke, really...
I like this dude but can someone get him a cough drop ffs
There's an easy way to figure out if it's a demo bug vs. something fishy: screen captures via spectators. The live in-game camera can't be on every at the same time during a match, so you get 10 spectators to in-game screen capture each player within a high level match (be it with Fraps, Dxtory, etc.) This would potentially prove or disprove demo bugs and be able to weed out smaller things. It's also easier (for now) rather than using your current idea of having keyloggers, external cameras, etc. Those could be used as further evidence, but I think taking a more simple route first is the most viable and cost-effective.
If some teammate is cheating and everyone of the team knows, should the whole team be banned or maybe suspended for cover up the cheater?
if you can prove it then sure!!
Yes but not permanently, like for a single year.
a year-long ban seems sufficient to me, they are accomplices
It would depend on their level of involvement ,and length. if you perma ban the cheater and they won 3 majors because of it, they all should be banned if participated. its possible maybe 1 or 2 wouldn't know though so it would be person to person basis.
If they do that, they won't be scene at all.
I've been waiting for this video for so long. Finally it's here
sick new overlay btw
I know that IF people wanted to catch these cheaters at LAN they would have already. It doesn't seem to be "worth it".
Thorin, your logic is unmatched! You're an idol for me and a hero :D
HANG ALL CHEATERS!
No just ban then for a year or two.
+CatnamedMittens “Michael Bialas” them*
+CatnamedMittens “Michael Bialas” after we hang them or before?
ban them for life lmfao wtf
Could you give me one good reason for a ban to not be lifetime?
@Thooorin you adress the issue of never being 100% sure if the other player is a cheater with 100% accuracy. Your opinions and wanted consequences is a hope for a lot of players.
"With an orange in his ass" lost it when he said that
😂😂😂👍👌✌
hey thorin.. all you had to say was we have to make the CSGO majors have "mouse cameras" above every computer. Sync up the movements with the mouse. Simple. Have split screen viewing or let the spectators be able to request the mouse hand videos.
if shox gets banned, it would break my heart :(
kid
Wouldn't that make you gay too?
+Deansy stfu you have 2 fat gay dads :3
I'm A Narc! That's literally impossible
well, maybe one of them is skinnier
Thooorin's ideas at about 30:00 are really interesting. Like he says, I don't think I would do that if I were Valve, but if they really are worried about cheating damaging the industry that's a legitimate idea.
I always want this to happen :Thorin is recording a new vid in a hotel room, an escort walk out of the shower in the background
Happens often, he just edits it out so he can get that ad skrilla $$$
one of the best vids youve made imo
csgo competition is also about engineering just like formula one
this, it is sad that csgo is maybe potentially just a test to see who has better cheats and that valve seemingly are also fine with giving $1m to cheaters.
Yea but F1 hack that breaks the rules is easy to spot. It's not easy to spot cheats on a videogame.
engineering...
I think we need more pros like Hiko that actually explain a lot of their vac shots, for instance Hiko made a full video talking about how he got that incredibly crazy smoke flick on cobble.
Get the damn mouse cameras and start purging these people from the community. We started with getting the gambling scumbags out, and we can get the cheating scumbags out too.
Unless we want to have the cheaters here, of course. That's up to Valve.
+CatnamedMittens “Michael Bialas” He didn't even imply so, he was talking about people like TmarTn and Syndicate and others who lured kids into gambling and made dozens of thousands of dollars in a very shady way
Huqe Figured.
Just because they owned the site doesn't make them anymore scumbag.
It does when you own the site, then bet on stream without telling viewers they own the site or that they're even sponsored by them. They had access to the site. They could make themselves win whenever they wanted. Making people excited and wanting to play because they won insane bets.
Mr. Fridge So you're saying that because they won insane bets everyone else thinks they also win insane bets? I really feel like it is the consumers fault here.
My body is ready, gonna watch the whole video as always great job Thorin :-)
*Edward Aimlock Kappa*
Niko aimlocking for sure
all of sk
+mute yh sk has cheaters
And when fnatic was #1 team in the world everyone thought they were cheating... Notice a pattern.... Maybe they're just good..??
for fnatic maybe there was 1 clip every tournament, i personally did not think they were cheating (except flusha prior DH 2014 but they werent even number 1 then). For SK there are new clips every round
Brave and needed. Thank you dad as always
Thooorin talking about the occult and quoting George Orwell, this dude woke af
Thooorin deserves alot of respect to talk about this things publicy , id say someone else in his position would not have the balls to bring it up.
Hey Thorin, I liked your reasoning, but I don't believe you're aware of the new cheating methods uncovered recently. It involves users sending packets to the server, telling the game what to do. (Example on DooM49's channel, where he talk about "packet-sending" cheaters). I've found some interesting info on a forum post titled "CSGO Packet Sniffer Proof of Concept", where they're attempting to change game values mid-game, although i'm not sure if this is a local or online method. Either way, apparently users are saying that they've been using this method for months-year(s) now, without any "VAC" or punishment. (As it's not really possible to get caught). Although where you talk about requiring new peripherals and PC's could be useful, I don't think it's in their hardware. I believe they're having other people (Possibly in the crowd, or even at home) control the outcome by sending packets of information. This would be very simple to do on an LAN server, such as the ESL cologne tournament. Actually, as i'm writing this, I've considered the idea that pro's might be paying those admins/users to open up certain security measures for their benefit. (Just a possibility, please don't take this too serious until we find out more)..
It seems like there's two types of cheats.. The free or cheap $30 one that almost always result in a VAC, or the extremely well hidden one that can't be traced back to the original cheater. I believe that they're using this pack-sending exploit to their advantage, as i've seen many people talking about this recent discovery a lot.
Great shirt, great overlay, great video.
Thanks for talking about it in a factual manor since everyone seems to be talking with their feelings.
I don't believe anyone is cheating but something needs to be done by Valve. They need to step in and stop the confusion.
Shox is hax0r pls ban gabe(ma)n
20:29
They aren’t risking anything if they’re reliant on the cheats to maintain their status as top pros. Further, if Valve aren't interested in catching them the risk is essentially 0.