Since the oil strainer is a thimble type micro mesh oil filter it does not make it worse, it has been proven so far that fine particles easily clog up the oil jets which it would take much more amounts of debris to restrict this type of filter screen and this thimble filter screen is serviceable by cleaning or replacing and it can be inspected by removing the oil pressure sensor and looking inside the threaded hole and it is fairly easy to get to. But replacing the thimble filter screen does require removing valve cover and camshaft bridge which would require doing so when adjusting the valves anyway.
Very interesting. As I currently look for my next bike. I will be taking KTM off the list. I truly appreciate the input from everybody posting as well as the very quality (as usual) video from Mr. Barebones. Never to old to learn.
the day i stop learning will be the day i die, last KTMs that nearly hooked me were the 1090 and 1190, which are great bikes, but as with Triumph (and others) there is always a BUT lol
@@barebonesmc at least triumph in recent history mainly had electrical problems which weren’t catastrophic failures. I owned a 675 and a 1050 and both never gave me problems, the two KTMs I had? Pure junk.
@@valebliz I have a love hate relationship with Triumph, I still own a Daytona 955i and ran a 94 Trophy 3 for a fair few years, parts supply is ridiculous, and i will never get over 36 different triumph special tools for 1 bike, they were always bad at it even in Meriden days, they were famous for it, but 36 of them for 1 bike is ridiculous, especially when some seem to have been deliberately designed NOT to work, who else ever thought a 2 pronged cage nut on a high torque spindle could possibly work??? lol great engines, sort of, but a $h!t company IMO with one of the worst marketing departments (not worst as in they arent good at it, worst as in lying cheating misleading nonsense lol) cheers for the comments and your words mate
"Never to old to learn." Eh? When you write, you're supposed to spell words correctly for their context. Look at what you wrote. Time to learn from your error.
@@barebonesmc I loved my 1190 Adventure. But i think 150hp on an adventure bike is overkill, so I sold it ans bought a Cagiva 900 Eelefant. That was a joy. Half the power, but the same (if not more) fun. And I love the way the Cagiva looks. But I sold the Elefant, that might not be smart. Well, now I have to get my Norton MKIII Commando back om the road. Glad I never sold it.
It's unfortunately systematic of the world we live in today. The shareholders rule. The accountants dictate engeneering. .. and the profit margin is the final say. They have made dollars worth more than sense.
And it will get worse before it stops decreasing. It's literally every field I can think of. Clothes, electronics, entertainment, food, hobbies you name it I've seen the quality drop so much
@@laius6047 absolutely. you can feel it every day. Prices going up, quality going down. We have to act before corporate greed takes over completely but its probably already too late
It's getting so bad that I decided to first look for 'old' 2nd hand quality instead of buying new , for a couple of years now and will go on doing so because it's paying me dividends. And as a bonus get I get a network of good willing helpfull people to boot.
this to me was always ridiculous. A company making a constant profit every year is not good enough. The profit must increase each year, leading to cost cutting measures while at the same time the salaries and benefits of the top dogs also go up. It's clearly (to use a word I dislike) unsustainable.
No Boeing went with DEI and ESG scores can't remember which Airline company said it but said they will only hire Diverse people instead of people that can do the Job. here's a example, here's your Brain surgeon this one has 25 years experience and this one just got cleaned up from the back alley and has been clean and sober for 8 hours now choose which one you want
@@josephschultz boeings downfall was due to macdonall douglas execs taking over and hyperfixating on investor pockets instead of listening to quality control
I’ve owned many Ktm’s since 2001. Even back then they were disrespected. But back then they were only known as a dirt bike company. My first Dirtbike was the famous 520SX. It was built as a race bike. It ended up being a bulletproof all rounder. I still have it today. All my buddies gave me a bad time for owning it. But ktm was ahead of its time. It came with upgraded brakes, steel braided brake lines, electric starter, upgraded Excel rims, fat bars. Etc. it wasn’t till Roger DeCosta was hired by Ktm to run the USA motocross Supercross team that Ktm got noticed in the states. It wasn’t long after Roger DeCosta turn Ktm into a winning machine. Soon after that all my friends that swore they would never own an orange pumpkin started showing up on the orange machines. Ktm has alway been an innovator. And it has forced the Japanese manufacturers to up their game if they wanted to stay competitive. In around 2005 ktm started introducing their first street bikes in the states. Even though ktm made a name for its self in the dirt bike circles. Nobody knew who ktm was in the street bike market. It wasn’t till the naked bike Duke series started showing up. The street bike series had growing pains with their electronics. Over the years the technology has gotten better. But several owner to this day are still having issues with electronic gremlins. Moving on to the 790/890s cam wear. It is obvious Ktm engineers and their corporate heads are ignoring that there is a lubrication problem on some of their 790/890 head. Why would they do this. Well my thought is they believe it’s a quality control issue and it’s only affecting a small number of bikes. My gripe is that there are now many customers that have had premature cam wear and have been refused full warranty support. Plus ktm has refused to make a officially statement about the cam wear issue. I’am a ktm 2023 890 owner. My bike has low mileage. Do I have a ticking time bomb? Can I rely on this bike for road trips without worrying about being stranded on the side of the road? Let alone ktm denying full warranty. Ktm you have embarrassed me. I have always stood up for you. I’m ashamed to be one of your loyal customers. For you to ignore this is only going to further hurt your reputation as a reliable motorcycle manufacture.
Our local KTM dealer is discounting thousands to try and get the 790's and 890's out the door. Even the bigger bikes are now heavily discounted, seems you reap what you sow. I wanted KTM to be successful being European, but quality is what the Japanese have mastered for 50 odd years.
Honda's first years of their V4's were rife with cam bearing oil supply issues, at least they investigated and fixed it. This seems like a corporate kicking the can down the road that is so typical of companies that sell their ownership to bottom liners. What could be the issue is the Thailand manufacturer is cutting costs in production at the behest of the parent profiteers. It makes me want to see if there are good deals on lightly used KTM inline twins. And if there's a user fix like opening up the oil delivery gallery or maybe piping additional oil up to the head by tapping an oil pump gallery node on the lower engine casing. The DOHC arrangement on this engine is very much like the Mercedes M110 engine's cam and followers, and those were generously supplied with ample oil, they piped pressure oil to the cam bearings and also to the ball and socket pivot of the cam followers, the excess oil to the follower pivots was sprayed as a stream to the follower's and cam's faces. The Mercedes M110 is a very long lived engine, there's no reason why the engineers at KTM couldn't have made this work for this engine, it's been in the technology stream for 50 years.
Such horseshit. Local dealer here sold 14 890's this year, not a one has come back with problems....people are whacked out online. If every KTM broke do you really think so many would be selling?
no such thing as class action in the UK really, the contract is between seller (ie dealer) and individual buyers, so it is complex, thanks for your support 🙂Cheers for adding your bit too mate. Ride Free 🙂
@barebonesmc, could someone check the wording on the warranty statement. Is it the Dealer or the Manufacturer that provides the warranty to the buyer?
I've been riding all sorts of dirt bikes since the early '90's. In terms of reliability, Honda has been the absolute worst with Yamaha doing pretty well. My KTM's (late '80's to present day) have all been deadly reliable and far more durable than any other thing I've ever owned. That said, all of my KTM's have been two stroke other than one thumper that was an RFS. RFS engines are legendary. I have no interest in a modern KTM four stroke and I'd shy away from their street bikes as well. KTM smokers and Yamaha street bikes at my house.
2020 KTM 790 Adventure R here with 21K miles and adding up quickly from an XC trip. Replaced my cams at 18K due to a valve clearance check showing deep wear in the lobes. It was very hard to find an intake cam but I did locate one. I am just concluding that I will need to replace my intake cam and follower on interval every 10K until the bike is sold. At this point I’m just going to keep riding and replace the cams as needed. You 100% hit the nail on the head. KTM has just decided to kick the can down the road and replace under their “customer service scheme” or whatever they are calling it. They know damn well that a lot of bikes will take several years before they get enough miles to wear down the cams and they point to only “X” amount of bikes are affected. In reality, a more reliable test would be to document how many bikes from a percentage basis actually make it past the 18K valve clearance check without a new intake camshaft.
I used to ride Japanese bikes with no issues back in the day, switched to KTMs which was plagged with issues and now I switched back to Honda/Yamaha with no regrets.
Driving 52 years now, owning a lot of bikes including Nortons, BMWs, Moto Guzzi and many japs. The japs never let me down, quality overall. Downsizing now about my age it will be a midweight bike like an SV 650 or similar, of course a jap, nothing else
My poor customer service with KTM goes way back to 1992 and their wP forks cracking. KTM said they never heard about it. Funny everyone I knew who raced that year bikes had the same issue. KTM is the worst company I have ever dealt with in 40+ years of bike racing and riding.
@@OtisFlint not LOL. Pierer Mobility is $1.5B in debt and cost cutting everywhere....notice how the MotoGP bikes are moving backwards down the grid in 2024?
Great video. Thanks so much. I have been burnt by both KTM and Husqvarna many years ago with the complete denial of issues that actually existed. Never again will they sell me any of their products. Not that they care.
Well I have had BMW, Aprilia, Harley Davidson, Ducati… but once I bought a Suzuki I was fully converted! Honda and Kawasaki are also brilliant, I will be sticking with Japanese from now on 😊
Every time I start thinking about something not Japanese (KTM, BMW, Triumph) one of these stories finds its way into my feed and saves me a host of problems.
Went to a Triumph dealership and I knew the owner. I talked to him and obviously he wants to sell his Triumph bikes. After the talk I walked around and went inside the workshop. I don't remember exactly but I saw 3-4 Triumph engines ripped out of bikes lying on the ground waiting to get rebuild... What did that tell me? Well I already knew but it reinforced my opinion that nothing else than Honda and Yamaha will be in my garage.
A engineer in Australia did a Rockwell hardness test on his own KTM cam shaft and it was well below the required hardness level required. My mates 890 was off the road for six months waiting for parts.
ive just been chatting to someone going RTW who has his head and cams on order to hold for shipping if needed because he knows having the parts ready to go wherever he is is the only way he can do it. parts supply is as bad a Triumph, is the 890 down with the cam issue? what have KTM said? there are more and more 890 and 901's affected that keep appearing, not good
@@robpinter5431 Rob it’s not the cams that are the problem. It’s appearing the problem might be an issue with the drilling of the jet ports supplying oil to the cam circuit. Whether it’s a design flaw or poor quality control. It appears it’s not effecting all 890’s. Does that make it ok for ktm not to address it properly? I think Ktm is in trouble with money and its share holders won’t accept it’s as a real issue. Too bad really. The reputation alone could hurt sale enough to crash the company.
I worked in a foundry checking hardness of the steel and also have worked in aircraft part manufacture and KTM clearly lack in quality control and make Hondas V4 problem of chocolate camshafts on their first V4 VF750 and credit to them the engine was massively over engineered after. It shows the truth on some bikes and even BMW and Moto Guzzi had issues like on the Griso. Triumph seem to be some of the best bikes produced outside Japan especially the reliability of the Tiger triples.
I'm a current Duke 390 owner and was looking at getting a 890 as my next bike but I'm not touching another KTM again after all of this. Looks like I'll be getting a MT-09 SP.
Nothing has changed there for decades. I in 2001 I saw my mate's KTM spin a bearing in the head of his 2 week old bike. They refused to repair it under warranty. They said it was a competition bike, despite the fact that it was road registered before delivery and had never been used in competition.
My buddies uncle's cousin third niece twice by marriage once had his KTM light his leg on fire and he burned all up. Back in ought 6 when we were fighting the big war....I got pictures!
We used to get an alarming amount of KTMs in the shop i worked in, mostly their road bikes. Their flagship models seemed to be much better, but the mid range and smaller models were quite frankly, appalling.
Something to add....KTM said they'll only goodwill the cams if one has had their bike serviced at the dealership for all previous services...so those of us who do their own maintenance like oil changes...we're outta luck!
yep, that was Charlies problem, reciept for all parts and fluids from KTM dealer and a dealer who backed him saying he had done MORE than they would have re servicing, but KTM just point blank said no to reimbursing him for the cost of cams or labour costs of the strip and rebuild (done at the dealer to their methodology)
Hey, not just KTM. S1000 BMW, cam followers made of cheese. You would think that, in the 100 odd years we've been hardening cams and followers and using mineral oils as lubricants you would think we'd get it right by now? As you say though " oh, it'll be ok".My mate made it to my place this summer, but the bike went back to the UK in a truck, 22,000mls on the bike! When he checked he found that there's also an S1000 BMW Facebook group, 100s of them with chocolate followers.
@barebonesmc i mean toyota is frying brand new engines these days, cummins has belt driven oil pumps, EVERYTHING is built to sell quick and die soon as warranty goes out/or even b4. That way you have to keep buying things. If they build things like honda/toyota did in 1980s/90s then no one would buy new every few yrs. I worked for Toyota honda dealer up untill 2010 i saw them switch 1st hand. They didnt build crappier, they just didnt build it like it was meant to last. Sad but thats our greedy speculation based economy. Its a joke and as a species if u wana actually survive will havta change our society fundamentalally. 10k mile oil changes? Sure gives manuf green credits but wears out ur engine within 100k to where block is junk. Spun bearings in block. Warranty is a they care about change ur oil at 3k if u wana keep it
A great case study of how when companies get so big, the lawyers take over. Typical language....we neither deny or acknowledge....we have a problem. Thanks for great summary. Thank goodness I have a 2021 KTM 890 Adv.
I was looking for a 790/890 Adventure, but after reading all the concerns and especially how poorly KTM supports its customers, KTM is now off my list of brands I want to buy. I’ve now started looking at a T7 instead.
I've had three KTM. 950 Adventure S, 450 EXC and now a 990 Adventure. They have all suffered with what I consider to be manufacturing or engineering issues. I persevered as they great bikes if you are happy to constantly throw money at them. We'll, my 990 let me down on a trip to France. I'm done with them. Far to expensive brand new and such poor reliability.
KTM has always been shady, in my opinion. Starting with dropping the hand shake deal with Penton in the United States back around 1977. They only seem to care about short term profits.
They have been stiff to improve and bend like they would not know better and this is who they were, over the years tho seems like the mask fell off,.. rip KTM.
Sold my KTM, and will not buy another one until this attitude changes. My new 2023 SMCR had an electrical fault within 50 miles, requiring me to check all connections at petrol station to find fault and get home. The amount of quality issues are now staggering and commonplace.When they just sold off road race bikes they got away with little warranty, they make Ducati reliable nowadays.
I was looking into Duke 125s a while ago, but kept happening upon stories of poor quality. I got an 05' Varadero XL125 instead and am very happy. One of my friends recently got a Duke 390 and it looks really naff when parked next to my Vara (I didn't tell him that though lol). Also the fit and finish and overall quality doesn't seem any better than Lexmotos I've sat on. I'm gonna be staying with Honda when I get my full license.
As somebody thats had stupid amount of motorcycles over the years, good choice, Honda and reliability go hand in hand, usually the only thing you have to watch on Honda's is reg/rec issues on some bikes, but other than that, usually bullet proof bikes, but you can't really go too wrong with any of the big 4 japanese brands, I've always been happy with my jap bikes and Triumphs. Never had a ktm, got plenty of customers at work with them in all different sizes, just never really been into them.
@@barebonesmc Yeah VT shadow cruiser I think from 1999. it's the same Haynes manual for both. It might even have been used before that but I'm not sure.
I realize that this is just my experience, but every single four-stroke KTM that I have ever ridden has broken down while in my possession. Some of these rides have been an hour long, some have been a few days to two weeks. Some of these breakdowns have been just bad luck, like the piece of metal that took out a tire and inner tube while on a 525 SMR test ride, or the water that got into the gas tank on a 625 SMC. But far and away, the electrical systems have been to blame for the majority of my KTM issues. Regardless, I would never, ever, buy a KTM. I haven't had any problems with the two-strokes, but the four strokes are garbage.
$1.5B in debt. They cannot afford to support their crap engineering. This is the start of the spiral that will end the company, and likely have all euro based brands bought out by Bajaj.
As a time served tech with over 40 years in the industry I recommend changing the oil pump if any excessive wear has taken place, as things wear in greater numbers those micro particles can and will get past the filters no problem and wear the delicate internals of the oil pump. Futhermore, I recommend checking the jets every couple of thousand miles to check for post manufacture swarf. I once repaired a Husky 350 which was destroyed due to a part of the fine gauze from the long filter breaking loose after the filter was damaged, the plastic housing broke allowing small stands of the woven filter to enter the system, the metal gauze types are not as good a design as the paper filter which is better at catching and retaining small debris.
@@barebonesmc It could have a lot to do with a change in ownership and cut backs to adjust their bottom line, as corporate ignorance sometimes takes precendence over quality, anything could and will happen again. What happens is the designs are sold to see what might happen, using the public as an experimental platform has been done many times before and will happen again because they simply don't care.
I have always said that you have a 95 percent chance of buying a solid trouble free bike from Japanese big 4. I have seen some good looking trash that performs well but from other brands. They ask a big price and parts are not available. Problem is they won’t look bad before they break really bad since they won’t be a year old. If people don’t buy them they will fix the issues and start building better quality bikes.
@@hamakaze9812 they came up with the money to start business. So they should borrow money to straighten out their problems and build what they claim they are. Repair the sold bikes or give the customers a discount for the junk they sold them.
just 2 weeks ago i met a guy who had his cam shaft changed at 5000 miles on a ktm 890 while i was there at the shop for a tyre replacement, didn't even knew about this before hand.
I'm glad I ran across your video. I was considering purchasing a KTM 890. Really wish KTM would keep the manufacturing of there bikes in Europe, where their designed. But it always seems they're thinking about the buck, not about the consumer buying the bike. And thats said, because I own a 2019 EXC 500, and love it. Have about 7000K on it , and no issues. It's a pity KTM is going in this direction. Maybe I'll be looking at the Ducati Desert X. The Italians stay true to their passion for motorcycles, and I admire that. Thank again for all the information. Cheers.
When I was younger and my dad was looking to get me a better fitting dirt bike, he mentioned that I shouldn't consider the KTMs all that seriously because of their reliability issues coupled with the significantly higher prices, but of course I was just a teenager and didn't really understand. Now that I'm an adult and figuring out which newer street bike will be a good fit for me next year, I have a much better grasp of what he was getting at. Seeing the ridiculous amount of potential electrical issues and failures of tertiary components on these bikes is so discouraging, and makes the price of the bikes almost insulting. The price of a bike should inherently be based on what sort of compromises the buyer will be making if they buy that bike, and KTM bikes have too many compromises. You should only be paying more for the higher performance metrics of the bike if it has the same level of reliability as the other options. But right now, you're paying significantly more money for a motorcycle that will break itself faster, and then cost you even more for the parts and maintenance compared to other manufacturers, which will also need to be replaced and redone more frequently. At this point, KTM banks on their brand loyal cultists and by flashing big numbers at people so they think they're getting the best bikes. They're the German Harley Davidson
I'm too old for KTM's wheelie ads & other PR bs to have any effect, but I empathize with those who dreamt of being "ready to race" as I was once a young boy racer too....
'Ready to Race' was originally from Husaberg, and those bikes were pretty competent. But it was understood that those bikes required short service intervals, like most racing machines.
I'm glad I passed on the 790 and bought a Suzuki DR650SE. I was tempted, but I also had a brand new 1975 Norton Commando, so I knew not to buy a European bike.
So pleased my gut instinct was not to trust KTM. This was before this chino-austrian shitshow started. Rattly XR camchain aside i went the right way. So far..
LOL, my 2021 690 SM, my first KTM after plenty of japanese bikes was the best bike I ever had, very little problems in 10k miles including winter use and weekly track riding...
KTM cam problems go back even further. The LC4 engines are notorious for intake rocker roller failure, and subsequent destruction of the cam. LC4's have two oil pumps, but neither pump oil up to the valvetrain. That task is left up to the cam chain. The simple question is "WHY?".
@@maarten_notjustagrip glad you got the knowledge to work it out. I live in Vietnam, so not that many KTMs here, let alone a competent mechanic you'd want working on your bike. Still, I had to have a solid street legal 450 in my stable, so bought 1 of 5 KTM's in the country 😂 She's been pretty good to me so far 2015 EXC model 👍
Tenere 700. There have been a few problems with the T7, but nothing as serious. The clutch had some issues. It needs a chain guide for off road. The bike and the engine (CP2) is solid. I would be broke and severely depressed if I bought a KTM and the cams melted away like plastic.
Isnt there something about a front engine mount in crash damage? but yep, with any new model there will be issues, it is the extent, and how the problems are managed
@@jonathanr72 I still remember a test off road with an old transalp a new transalp and a 790r. The reality was that all the extra power and tricks of the new ones made almost no difference to take off or speed off road. On road maybe different but that’s a different story 😊
@@barebonesmc Of course, but as far as general purpose bikes for the everyday rider goes, the T7 just isn't a fun bike to have in the garage, while the KTM is. Personally I have a CFMOTO 800MT.
I'm always surprised people still buy KTM motorcycles with their known reliability issues. Most motorcyclists do their homework before a purchase or PCP deal. I was all set to buy the KTM 1190 Adventure back in 2016, did my homework for a few weeks and soon changed my mind. Bought an old Honda Hornet as a temp bike and spent the next seven years going everywhere on it with absolutely no problems apart from consumables and regular servicing.
You can engineer a powerful bike, a light bike, a snazzy marketing scheme, fancy PR events and commercials, but none of that will gloss over reliability issues. Unreliability is not an easy reputation to walk back.
I think anyone should be skeptical of reliability when an engine is cranking out a large amount of power compared to its displacement. Look at the klr. Its reliability can be attributed to its low power output. Favoring longevity over performance.
The reality is most motorcycle customers do not understand engineering challenges, or the fact that race engine lives are not measured in miles, but hours. KTM designs are fundamentally different than Japan, but there are good reasons why Japan avoids those designs. Many comments here revert to xenophobia, but most Japanese bikes are no longer built in Japan and they have no QC issues in other countries.
It's oil feed, and the problem goes beyond 2021 models. I experienced a brief taste of this before hearing of it. Rode a low miles 2022 890 Adventure bike for two days last fall. On the second day, as we were approaching a gas station, the engine seemed to be lacking power, and I began to hear a noise (I call it "rocks and popcans") coming from the head. I killed power and coasted into the gas station where we immediately checked the oil level. It was fine. We gassed up and let the bike sit for a few. It restarted and ran normally after that. The bike wasn't mine and the owner claimed the noises I had heard were "normal" for a KTM. In my travels I have heard a few motors run low on oil, and that was the exact noise I heard coming from the 890. As a footnote, I had also considered buying my own 890 at one point as it had otherwise been a decent bike. Based on this and a few similar blogs I'm glad I didn't follow through. Customer service is king and if that's the best they can do then I'll get a ricer.
I was burned with the leaky airbox issue on my 1190R. In the end ktm covered the cost of parts for a full top end rebuild but I got the labour bill of $3500. Total repair bill was $6800 CAD. Previous owner bought an extended warranty ($1800) but the fine print voided the warranty if any aftermarket parts were installed on the bike. I left it and the problem eventually presented itself so I presented my claim to the insurer. They produced further fine print in the policy that stated and damage downstream of a maintainable part is not covered under warranty - basically the entire engine. The whole thing left a really bad taste in my mouth. If you buy any 3rd party extended warranty, READ THE FINE PRINT, it's probably not worth the paper it's written on. I still have the bike (45000km) and it's served me well after I installed aftermarket filtration. Buddies all moved to 890's but I will be sitting on the sidelines until this can issue is sorted out.
I don't care how big any 'screen' is, they are there to catch something which should not be there - damn great lumps of camshaft! I don't agree with you that swarf is always present, the problem is the size of the debris. Well designed engines debris is a massive order of magnitude smaller than the lumps of cam flying around due to all of the problems with the cross drilling. Everything else you said is correct. If KTM are so hands-free of the quality control in the Chinese engine plant, they have just learned a VERY expensive lesson. If, and only if, KTM fully sort this problem like Ducati did with the valves on the V4's, they will be ok, but if they don't, it will destroy their reputation and they will collapse. I await the next big thing "if you owned a KTM 790/890 between 2018 & 2024, you could be owed up to £12000". How very last millenium.
Ktm seem to have always given up reliability for slightly higher performance from what I've seen, sometimes they get away with it (or the ktm riders just accept more cost and maintenance for it) their engines always sound tappity and in aus used to run hot all the time whereas I had a yamaha yz 250 for 10 yrs and did 1 top end rebuild and changed the gearbox oil 4 times at most. (Weekend warrior, not racer)
I agree, my 450 sounds like rubbish unless you are riding her full song... All the online resources available indicated that "it's normal... Its just the way KTM sounds"... WTF 😂 Who remembers the 13-15 generation KTM 350s with the oil pump plastic gears melting resulting in complete engine destruction? At least my 450 is still going
Owner of a 2018 790 duke here, with about 14000km on the clock. This got me really worried… I wanted to go to the dealer to get it checked, however if they deem everything is fine, I’m still up for the cost of taking the top end apart and putting it back. I didn’t see much metal particle during my last oil change so fingers crossed 🤞 Was considering changing to the CFMOTO 800MT…. No way I’m going there now 😡
After 25 years of ktm, I am now on a Yamaha. 2023 300xc had a random bog that could not be fixed. Ktm said the bike would have to experience the issue wile hooked up to the computer because it wasn’t throwing codes. I replaced everything but the tps, the power valve servo and ecu. At that point it was way cheaper to get rid of. The bike eventually bogged on a jump sending me to hospital with 2 broke ribs and a busted spleen
I had a 200 EXC and the sump plug stripped when torquing it up. It got replaced under warranty. They sent it off to get the casing tested and found the casing was to soft, not in spec.
Honda had soft camshaft problems with their first V4 models. Still a very successful family grew out of it, the VFR and 800 having a near indestructible reputation. I doubt they handled things in this lackluster way. Does anybody remember? And then there is the China question indeed. Are the CF built bikes equally affected? The typical thing is these so called high tech brands often depend on a lot of propaganda to hammer in how good their bikes are. Often the owners however simply act as a Beta-tester crowd. This is a universal problem nowadays anyway. Design it in software, test it as little as possible, see what happens in the real world after selling it and fix it if things go awry. Or not! 🤑
Brought a new gsx750fk in 89 . First of the slingshot engine and i got one of the first bikes here in nz. They had cam issues and dealt with it really well. After 17k the cams were stuffed . Fixed under warranty and cams sent back to japan for analysis. Suzuki soon sorted the issue. Around the same time the kawasaki gpx 750 had similar issues due to the high revving short stroke mtrs that manufacturers had gone to. As to vf hondas the solution to top end issues was to go to gear driven cams,great bike ,the gear cam ones that is.
@@chrisweeks6973 Haahahaha.. ive never heard anything soooo funny.. BMC NEVER had any strategy for development.. THAT.. was a corporate gone mad if ever.. i have 5 minis & a 1300gt & a looong history with land crabs etc.. first car ever was a 66 mk2 3.8 mod fresh out of school in 75.. bought it instead of a 66 etype coupe.. parents convinced me it was more practical regreted it ever since.. good old bad old days when e types had near no value at all
A update, it's the oil pump that has to low oil pressure,i repaired a lot of ktm ,450 exf and they have the same problem ,in low revs the oil doesn't squirt on the cam ,so rev it and keep it in the top revs
Thanks for sharing. I know that is a theory and also that cf Moto and I believe kove too. Have replaced spring in oil pump relief valve to a 3.5 bar spring rather than the ktm 2.5 bar spring but too early to tell if it’s had an impact. Also. Dirt ingress seems to be coming up a lot now. Either as a ktm excuse not to repair but also with the cf Moto 800. Cf Moto Dealers advised to replace airbox seal with aftermarket one. It’s a complex one until ktm actually do any major redesign work
Camshaft and lifter issues can often be traced back to MA2 oils. These oils have low zinc to meet the requirements of a catalytic converter. If these bikes have a catalytic converter, I guarantee you they’re running low zinc. Zinc is a protective layer in these, high stress areas. Without it it’s a certainty that you will have major wear issues.
Best answer here! I AGREE 100 PERCENT! 1 OZ ZINC ADDITIVE PER QT. OIL😊 THE YAMAHA TR-1 WAVE RUNNER HAS SAME CAM- TAPPET EATING ISSUES,I suspect yamaha out sourcing cams etc from china as well,buyer be aware these days😮
ZDDP is not the only EP antiwear additive. The lubricant companies have much more engineering and testing expertise than the average end-user does. I've never had a cam-and-lifter wear issue on any DOHC shim-under-bucket engine, whether car/truck or bike. The large diameter of the buckets forced by the need to accommodate the valve spring underneath, and to accommodate the valve lift geometry, spreads out the load more so than with a finger-follower, and also the interface sees only the valve-spring pressure, not a multiple of it in the case of a finger-follower with more than a 1:1 motion ratio (which they all are).
Metal expert here. For that steel to be THAT color. That means the camshaft lobe would need to reach over 400F! Meaning it is twice the temp of average oil temperatures in a healthy motor! Not to mention to produce coloration in steel it must oxidize, meaning that the lobe would need to be dry enough for oxygen contact in the engine chamber.
Interesting. The engineers are weighing in on the fb group now too. Hardness testing down at around 30hrc and one guy doing impact analysis on opening of valves. So the story is ever evolving but thanks for this
I have two thoughts on this. Why have the UK retail regulators not got involved and acted? and how are KTM still selling new bikes in the UK if their warranty is worthless?
their warranty is one of the most complicated documents there is lol, and i wasnt joking, the holes are written into it. ie, guarantee is void if .................. and a long list of get outs. thats a question you need to ask the regulators i think lol. but the reality is, it is still a small if growing number of bikes that are affected, the inconsistency is the real killer, because no one knows if they have a time bomb between their legs, even after rebuilds i have seen sub 2000 mile cams ripped up, and now there is a backlog on parts supply
Its a damn shame, the 790/890 is an awesome design with great performance, was about to buy one and read all about this cam issue. Its good that you have narrowed it down, bad design of the lubrication galleries, something that cant be fixed. Lately ive seen alot of 790s going for alot less on the second hand market, the reputation has caught up with the bike! Ended up on a T7 but fornd that top heavy, on a 21 690 now, figured the LC4 engine has the runs on the board to be reasonably dependable, still, its an expensive bike once you add the tasty mods. Ktm really blew it with the twin, very disappointing. Ive had 9 Ktm enduros, they have all been solid. 2 or 4 stroke. My latest 18 300 xc has been incredible, so they can build a great bike.
I saw a recent video on this subject by the dirty garage channel. He has it pinned down to the oiling of the camshafts and he makes perfect sense imho. In short, it has to do with casting tolerances and the oil spray nozzles. Metallurgical testing of the camshafts themselves show no issues with the metal itself. Interesting video to watch even if the man is more mechanic then a RUclips talent imho.
Ktm 790 motor is the same motor they use in CFMoto 800 and kove 800x. To my knowledge they use the same motor and did a lot of changes. One of them they fixed the camshaft problem. I think Kove and CFmoto will not use a motor knowing it have problems with out fixing it. I talking about the new one of 20204
Yes I read that but there is no actual evidence they have redesigned or even corrected the camshaft issue just the usual internet babble no doubt CF Moto and kove owners will find out in the future
the term .. collaboration seems to have lost its meaning in recent times .. unless it carries profit scheming under tow .. .. .. like this .. short cutting engineering reinventing the wheel & pushing to us its a rounder fairer wheel when in fact its square .. it'll round itself out .. in time .. oh faaark I've become a sinic .. Kove & CF same motor ?
@@Errol.C-nz something i have been asking for is a statement by CF Moto and Kove about exactly what changes they have made, no response so far, all i get is we improved it. one persons comment suggested the lower power output will make it less of an issue, which might well help, but won't solve the problem. with a 10 year end of life, in China that makes sense, it will make the engine last longer, and maybe until that 10 year mark, but for a market that still routinely rides 25 to 30 year old bikes? and/or does very high mileages? im not so sure, which is why i keep asking.
@@barebonesmc would be interesting to get kove & CF cams & do a rockwell test.. i do rather like the Kove but.. think ill keep my sights on the well proven tdm900 when the time comes.. superb chassis & remarkable engine.. soon
Have been very tempted by an 890 smt but these horror stories put me off. Even heard lots having issues with the 690 smc and 701…and having very poor experiences with dealers regarding warranty claims etc. Not cool.
Just my personal experience, but I have a 2020 Husqvarna 701 Enduro that I've clocked over 38,000 miles on without any major issues. I had a Tenere 700 on deposit and after a year of waiting I found a guy on craigslist in June of 2022 that had the Husky bone stock with about 4,000 miles on it. I figured I'd pick it up till the Tenere came in. I never owned a KTM or Husqvarna bike before so I'm not a brand fan boy or anything. I saw all the doom and gloom of people on the forums repeating the same things conflating KTM quality overall with the 690/701 LC4's. Knowing how internet forums work you where you have a handful of occupational forum trolls that don't even ride that just keep posting the same nonsense every day creating a mythology of sorts. I do my own mechanical work for any vehicle I own so I figured I'd give the 701 a shot and if any issues came up I knew I could deal with it. Well I'm glad I did as in the past 2 years I have put over 34,000 miles on it with only 2 minor issues. I have taken the bike to Death Valley, Mojave desert, Moab, all around Arizona, New Mexico, Colorado, South Dakota, etc. I ride it every day even running errands and grabbing groceries weather permitting. I drive the piss out it and in all that time the only issues it's ever had were; 1. The clutch slave cylinder is a legit issue as the o-rings will fail. The original owner had already replaced it with a rekluse slave cylinder and I have not had a single issue. 2. About 5,000 miles my stator failed. I had just replaced the lead acid battery with a lithium about 100 miles prior and I thought it was the battery at first, but it was the stator after I tested it. A coincidence with the battery change? Who knows, replaced with an OEM stator and have not had a single issue since. 3. About 20,000 miles I developed a pin hole leak in the radiator on the lower left side. Simple solder fix and have not had any other issues. I have zero regrets with the 701. So much so that I lost interest in the Tenere 700 due to it coming in 100lbs heavier and being much top heavier. Despite how good that twin sounds compared to a single thumper. I gave my Husky the typical ADV treatment's; Rade Garage Rally tower, aux fuel tank/foam air filter, wings exhaust, etc., and it's proven the perfect lightweight adventure bike for me as I do a lot of solo backcountry riding. The guy I bought it from got a KTM 1290 adventure R and we've become friends that ride together. With the Rade aux fuel tank and the 55mpg average, I can keep up with him in pace and fuel stops no problem on the 701 as I get average 260miles range on the 4.7gallons total fuel capacity. I think the biggest problem is that social media sites like RUclips, and various bike forums tend to keep repeating the same issues that a handful of people have had. And over years it becomes an "everyone has had this issue" kind of thing. I've meet numerous guys in my travels on 690/701's and I ask them what issues they've encountered, and other than the clutch slave O-ring failure nothing systemic. Comparing things like KTM 2 stroke issues that get rode hard and put a way wet, then blown up, to LC4 issues is not a fair comparison. Absent empirical data it's hard to quantify what are real issues vs. stuff guys keep repeating they heard and going in a doom loop. One thing that is universal though is poor dealer support! And that is pretty much any dealer these days across all brands and not representative of the manufactures. Personally I would never let a dealer mechanic touch any of my vehicles, but again I do all my own work which others are not in a position to, or capable of doing themselves so are dependent on the stealerships. So I guess the point is the same one Benjamin Franklin said some years ago, "You can't believe everything you read on the internet". LOL
I was the same. Got excited about the 890 SMT, but then started seeing immediate reports of so many different types of quality issues. Immediately decided it wasn't for me.
Didn’t know about KTM (Austrian) getting engines built by CF (China) oh dear!!!. IMO buy Japanese. No intention to ever buy KTM, BMW, Aprillia and even worse Ducati. Forgot about crap like MV Augusta and Moto Guzzi. Only “European” bike I would buy is a Triumph. Still prefer Japanese. My TL1000S is still going strong after 27 years
Hello Davy. I'm curious to hear why you label Moto Guzzi as "crap". Is this from personal experience? They are not very common so there is not a big owners group reporting problems. Any owner reviews I do see are very positive about the 'bikes (less so about the dealer network, but you say the 'bikes themselves are crap). Can you explain how you came to this conclusion?
to be clear, KTM dont just have the engines made by CF Moto, ALL OF THEIR SUB 1000cc MOTORCYCLES ARE MADE ENTIRELY in either India or China the only bikes now made in Austria are the race bikes and the Super Duke and Super Adventure, some sweeping statements there though lol, we all have our favourites 🙂 i am one of the people who describe Aprilia as the Italian Honda though, and i have a love hate relationship with Triumph lol, great, until they break. parts supply in the UK is abysmal and dealers are attrocious IMO. and i am a Triumph owner lol
Keep in the mind the KTM’s LCR engine used in the 690 is virtually bulletproof these days, though technically the bike is not a direct replacement for the 890 (a bit less roadworthy/more dirt-oriented).
I considered buying an 890 Duke, I'm glad I didn't. However, the Speed Triple RS I bought has an overheating problem the dealer can't fix. Even after the fan shroud and ECU remap were done, it still over heats, or at least "thinks" it's over heating. So, like KTM, the Triumph's fix isn't a fix at all.
Honestly all fun bikes suffer from the same thing.... Like they say you can build a bike in 3 ways : fun reliable and cheap but you can only get 2 at the same time... And we all customers are kind of responsible for this... Would you buy a 35k reliable ktm? Or a 40k fun Honda?
Don’t get me started lol. You will see I don’t hold back with triumph either lol. I am a long suffering owner. Great bikes. Shit parts supply n fitters who haven’t got a clue. No real mechanics in any triumph dealers I know
@@ricardomorales1039 not my experience at all, or that of many many Cagiva family, the Gran Canyon and Navigator are both masterpieces, one Ducati powered with a bombproof detuned Ducati 900SS engine the other with an equally brilliant TL1000 block, How many of the Yamaha and Honda 2 stroke 125s of that era are still doing as well as the Mito's? or have such a cult following? even the TZR125 is no comparison, but i guess if you are across the pond prices may well have been and still are more. regardless, not expensive to maintain at all, and thats not even mentioned the bike with such a following both Ducati and MV tried to copy it just last year. the Elefant is openly described by most people who have ridden it as the best adventure bike ever made, still, so we will have to disagree on this one 🙂 but thats allowed lol
I would suggesting sending oil samples to a Laboratory at oil change milage. That kind of camshaft wear will show up in an oil sample. Also cut open your used oil filter.
I think this is a KTM problem and an engineering problem or making there engines completely overstressed. Cf moto bikes are detuned compared with the models from ktm. The cfmoto 300 sr engine apparently a single from the past based on kwacka ķlx 300 design. This is a 30bhp max engine, but in the case of KTM its a 390 cc bored lump making over 40 bhp. The same with the KTM 790 vs cfmoto 801. The KTM has had its neck rung out. The husky is allowed the premium power as the The KTM and blows up because of it. I bet CF moto are laughing all the way to the bank as they seem way more reliable than the bikes engines they are ordered to make for others. CF moto I would expect where told to make the premium price brands have more power to justify the ridiculous price. Also KTMs were never reliable bikes, sitting in the european place of old Ducati..
I find it immensely frustrating watching reviewers continue to rave about a KTM after riding it for a few hours with no intention of ever owning one. Despite KTM quality issues having been known for years, it seems many people either still don't know, or just don't care. And so the bikes keep selling.
although many are maybe down, i dont think many have had the 60% drop in revenue that KTM have in the past year so they are suffering because of decisions around this
I never really understood why people buy these ugly bikes. My brother keeps asking me to ride his 1290SD telling me "once you ride it you'll buy one and never look back". How the flip am I going to be able to even get on the bike when I'm puking into my helmet as I approach that thing? Or is it another case of "You don't look at the mantlepiece while you're stoking the fire..."? 😂
Damn love KTM products but now this type of garbage along with the Pay to unlock the performance of your bike is just pure greed and will eventually kill your brand JMO
I am glad I sold my first gen790 in time and the 901 after that also, before they could developmthat problem. Even healthy ktm engines sound like a shaking box of loose bolds, so its not easy to detect without opening the engine. Had it only been for defect itself, I still would buy from Pierer, but adding their denial of their problem will make me definetly move to another brand if I should want to get rid of the 701 I am riding now. Let's hope I will not ride a bike of an oboslete brand, soon. However I don't know anz other bike with that weight to power to fun ratio.
I was going to suggest this was a cam hardening *and* oiling issue, but it’s not. This is most likely an oil supply issue exacerbated by blocked screens (blocked with bits of cam). Many years back Honda had an issue with a bad batch of case hardened cams and the wear is very different… if the oil supply is maintained. I was affected and repaired my own bike. As you have observed engineers and lawyers working for the same company often have differences of opinion.
i think the accuracy of the cross drillings is now pretty obviously implicated, but that spiders web of galleries is never going to help, my guess is they increased oil pressure to try and get around it, but by creating the multiple choke points they have in the block, flow will be disrupted and those pockets will create turbulence, which itself disrupts the flow more, an angle of over 90 degrees within a gallery is a basic mistake by an engineer that doesnt really understand flow dynamics though in my honest opinion, yes it can be done, but you are making your own job harder by doing it, and creating points where a back wash is fighting against the main oil flow. if the cams always ate the head, the you could surmise it was hard cams or soft head or followers, if the cams get eaten, then surmise the cams arent hardened properly, the inconsistency of the problem points at oil flow and always has. what i find fascinating (and will be in next video) is that CF Moto versions of the engine DON'T seem to be having the same issue so far, although only time will tell. i have a feeling this story will just run on and on, and that most of the internal wranglings will never be heard in public. It would affect 3 very big corporations a lot to go public now. oh what a tangled web they weave.
@@barebonesmc Oil system design and tolerance issues….. hence manufacturers reluctance to talk about it. The fact that the cam bearing surfaces have been worn in the head really does point to oil flow issues. I feel badly for the people that lost out on this, it’s very unfair.
If you want a KTM twin. Stick with the OG, LC8. It is a shame that a company such as KTM has turned into the big corporation now. Happy to be feeding out such rubbish. I feel sorry for the consumers, but also the dealers. They are in the middle, having to deal with the consequences at their own costs. And it's not just cam and oiling issues. The KTM products seem to be filled with canbus and other warranty issues.
![[#2024MAMA] BIGBANG (빅뱅) - 뱅뱅뱅 (BANG BANG BANG) + FANTASTIC BABY | Mnet 241123 방송](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/EQsYfiPR9uM/mqdefault.jpg)
Since the oil strainer is a thimble type micro mesh oil filter it does not make it worse, it has been proven so far that fine particles easily clog up the oil jets which it would take much more amounts of debris to restrict this type of filter screen and this thimble filter screen is serviceable by cleaning or replacing and it can be inspected by removing the oil pressure sensor and looking inside the threaded hole and it is fairly easy to get to. But replacing the thimble filter screen does require removing valve cover and camshaft bridge which would require doing so when adjusting the valves anyway.
yep, that seems to be the thoughts going forward, i will pin this comment mate, as i said, it is an ongoing story that will inevitably keep evolving
Virtually every modern engine built today, has these diabolical oil jets and filters. Just sayin.
@@bradsanders6954 I hate plain bearings tbh 😊😊
Very interesting. As I currently look for my next bike. I will be taking KTM off the list. I truly appreciate the input from everybody posting as well as the very quality (as usual) video from Mr. Barebones. Never to old to learn.
the day i stop learning will be the day i die, last KTMs that nearly hooked me were the 1090 and 1190, which are great bikes, but as with Triumph (and others) there is always a BUT lol
@@barebonesmc at least triumph in recent history mainly had electrical problems which weren’t catastrophic failures. I owned a 675 and a 1050 and both never gave me problems, the two KTMs I had? Pure junk.
@@valebliz I have a love hate relationship with Triumph, I still own a Daytona 955i and ran a 94 Trophy 3 for a fair few years, parts supply is ridiculous, and i will never get over 36 different triumph special tools for 1 bike, they were always bad at it even in Meriden days, they were famous for it, but 36 of them for 1 bike is ridiculous, especially when some seem to have been deliberately designed NOT to work, who else ever thought a 2 pronged cage nut on a high torque spindle could possibly work??? lol great engines, sort of, but a $h!t company IMO with one of the worst marketing departments (not worst as in they arent good at it, worst as in lying cheating misleading nonsense lol) cheers for the comments and your words mate
"Never to old to learn." Eh? When you write, you're supposed to spell words correctly for their context. Look at what you wrote. Time to learn from your error.
@@barebonesmc I loved my 1190 Adventure. But i think 150hp on an adventure bike is overkill, so I sold it ans bought a Cagiva 900 Eelefant. That was a joy. Half the power, but the same (if not more) fun. And I love the way the Cagiva looks. But I sold the Elefant, that might not be smart. Well, now I have to get my Norton MKIII Commando back om the road. Glad I never sold it.
It's unfortunately systematic of the world we live in today. The shareholders rule. The accountants dictate engeneering. .. and the profit margin is the final say. They have made dollars worth more than sense.
And it will get worse before it stops decreasing. It's literally every field I can think of. Clothes, electronics, entertainment, food, hobbies you name it I've seen the quality drop so much
@@laius6047 absolutely. you can feel it every day. Prices going up, quality going down. We have to act before corporate greed takes over completely but its probably already too late
It's getting so bad that I decided to first look for 'old' 2nd hand quality instead of buying new , for a couple of years now and will go on doing so because it's paying me dividends.
And as a bonus get I get a network of good willing helpfull people to boot.
@@Angry-Lynx If say something against it they call u communist LMAO, humanity has been brainwashed being repair, only downhill from here.
this to me was always ridiculous. A company making a constant profit every year is not good enough. The profit must increase each year, leading to cost cutting measures while at the same time the salaries and benefits of the top dogs also go up. It's clearly (to use a word I dislike) unsustainable.
Boeing replaced engineers with bean counters in their top echelons and planes began falling apart. KTM needs restructuring too.
corporate greed is corporate greed, simple :-)
No Boeing went with DEI and ESG scores can't remember which Airline company said it but said they will only hire Diverse people instead of people that can do the Job. here's a example, here's your Brain surgeon this one has 25 years experience and this one just got cleaned up from the back alley and has been clean and sober for 8 hours now choose which one you want
@@josephschultz boeings downfall was due to macdonall douglas execs taking over and hyperfixating on investor pockets instead of listening to quality control
Bean counters have infested every corporation since the end of Covid
@@josephschultz wrong. Boeings issues are way older. DEI is a distraction for poor and stupid people.
I’ve owned many Ktm’s since 2001. Even back then they were disrespected. But back then they were only known as a dirt bike company. My first Dirtbike was the famous 520SX. It was built as a race bike. It ended up being a bulletproof all rounder. I still have it today. All my buddies gave me a bad time for owning it. But ktm was ahead of its time. It came with upgraded brakes, steel braided brake lines, electric starter, upgraded Excel rims, fat bars. Etc.
it wasn’t till Roger DeCosta was hired by Ktm to run the USA motocross Supercross team that Ktm got noticed in the states. It wasn’t long after Roger DeCosta turn Ktm into a winning machine. Soon after that all my friends that swore they would never own an orange pumpkin started showing up on the orange machines.
Ktm has alway been an innovator. And it has forced the Japanese manufacturers to up their game if they wanted to stay competitive.
In around 2005 ktm started introducing their first street bikes in the states. Even though ktm made a name for its self in the dirt bike circles. Nobody knew who ktm was in the street bike market. It wasn’t till the naked bike Duke series started showing up. The street bike series had growing pains with their electronics. Over the years the technology has gotten better. But several owner to this day are still having issues with electronic gremlins.
Moving on to the 790/890s cam wear. It is obvious Ktm engineers and their corporate heads are ignoring that there is a lubrication problem on some of their 790/890 head. Why would they do this. Well my thought is they believe it’s a quality control issue and it’s only affecting a small number of bikes.
My gripe is that there are now many customers that have had premature cam wear and have been refused full warranty support. Plus ktm has refused to make a officially statement about the cam wear issue.
I’am a ktm 2023 890 owner. My bike has low mileage. Do I have a ticking time bomb? Can I rely on this bike for road trips without worrying about being stranded on the side of the road? Let alone ktm denying full warranty.
Ktm you have embarrassed me. I have always stood up for you. I’m ashamed to be one of your loyal customers. For you to ignore this is only going to further hurt your reputation as a reliable motorcycle manufacture.
@@RobertKehl you should use your 890 a lot. It's worthless now, and if you don't bugger the cams they won't replace the engine due to it being ok.
What are you talking about. Please explain more.
@@RobertKehl you got a short attention span?
it is a sad state of affairs
I bet Roger Decosta must regularly get confused with the famous Roger De Coster huh?
Our local KTM dealer is discounting thousands to try and get the 790's and 890's out the door. Even the bigger bikes are now heavily discounted, seems you reap what you sow. I wanted KTM to be successful being European, but quality is what the Japanese have mastered for 50 odd years.
Quality over anything always wins
The Japan bike industry implemented kaizen philosophy, that lifted the quality much more.
Honda's first years of their V4's were rife with cam bearing oil supply issues, at least they investigated and fixed it. This seems like a corporate kicking the can down the road that is so typical of companies that sell their ownership to bottom liners.
What could be the issue is the Thailand manufacturer is cutting costs in production at the behest of the parent profiteers. It makes me want to see if there are good deals on lightly used KTM inline twins. And if there's a user fix like opening up the oil delivery gallery or maybe piping additional oil up to the head by tapping an oil pump gallery node on the lower engine casing.
The DOHC arrangement on this engine is very much like the Mercedes M110 engine's cam and followers, and those were generously supplied with ample oil, they piped pressure oil to the cam bearings and also to the ball and socket pivot of the cam followers, the excess oil to the follower pivots was sprayed as a stream to the follower's and cam's faces. The Mercedes M110 is a very long lived engine, there's no reason why the engineers at KTM couldn't have made this work for this engine, it's been in the technology stream for 50 years.
@@tauncfester3022 I believe someone did similar with an external banjo on the LC4 single. A fix is do able but parts supply is a long wait right now.
Such horseshit. Local dealer here sold 14 890's this year, not a one has come back with problems....people are whacked out online. If every KTM broke do you really think so many would be selling?
The only solution will be a class action lawsuit, well reported also I might add for good exposure.
no such thing as class action in the UK really, the contract is between seller (ie dealer) and individual buyers, so it is complex, thanks for your support 🙂Cheers for adding your bit too mate. Ride Free 🙂
@barebonesmc, could someone check the wording on the warranty statement. Is it the Dealer or the Manufacturer that provides the warranty to the buyer?
Ive seen enough of these stories to know that KTM will never be in my driveway.
A good point mate 🙂Cheers for the comment. Ride Free 🙂
I've been riding all sorts of dirt bikes since the early '90's. In terms of reliability, Honda has been the absolute worst with Yamaha doing pretty well. My KTM's (late '80's to present day) have all been deadly reliable and far more durable than any other thing I've ever owned.
That said, all of my KTM's have been two stroke other than one thumper that was an RFS. RFS engines are legendary. I have no interest in a modern KTM four stroke and I'd shy away from their street bikes as well.
KTM smokers and Yamaha street bikes at my house.
🙂Cheers for adding your bit mate. Ride Free 🙂
I will NEVER buy a KTM because of this. No way.
it isnt a happy story for sure
2020 KTM 790 Adventure R here with 21K miles and adding up quickly from an XC trip. Replaced my cams at 18K due to a valve clearance check showing deep wear in the lobes. It was very hard to find an intake cam but I did locate one. I am just concluding that I will need to replace my intake cam and follower on interval every 10K until the bike is sold. At this point I’m just going to keep riding and replace the cams as needed. You 100% hit the nail on the head. KTM has just decided to kick the can down the road and replace under their “customer service scheme” or whatever they are calling it. They know damn well that a lot of bikes will take several years before they get enough miles to wear down the cams and they point to only “X” amount of bikes are affected. In reality, a more reliable test would be to document how many bikes from a percentage basis actually make it past the 18K valve clearance check without a new intake camshaft.
I used to ride Japanese bikes with no issues back in the day, switched to KTMs which was plagged with issues and now I switched back to Honda/Yamaha with no regrets.
Driving 52 years now, owning a lot of bikes including Nortons, BMWs, Moto Guzzi and many japs. The japs never let me down, quality overall.
Downsizing now about my age it will be a midweight bike like an SV 650 or similar, of course a jap, nothing else
it's the only way
My poor customer service with KTM goes way back to 1992 and their wP forks cracking. KTM said they never heard about it. Funny everyone I knew who raced that year bikes had the same issue. KTM is the worst company I have ever dealt with in 40+ years of bike racing and riding.
Scums hiding behind the Austrian/German quality myth. I mean Volkswagen did the same in the automotive world with the dieselgate…
Ktm will be history if they don't own up .
The WP takeover wasnt good for anyone, another once great company
@@johnryan2193 lol
@@OtisFlint not LOL. Pierer Mobility is $1.5B in debt and cost cutting everywhere....notice how the MotoGP bikes are moving backwards down the grid in 2024?
KTM - READY TO REBUILD
Ready for Recalls
Great video. Thanks so much. I have been burnt by both KTM and Husqvarna many years ago with the complete denial of issues that actually existed. Never again will they sell me any of their products. Not that they care.
Easy solution… buy Japanese 😉
I would narrow that further , buy a Honda
I only buy Japanese. Mainly Kawasaki.
But but.... Japanese bikes doesn't have soul nor character - som' Euro fangirls
Well I have had BMW, Aprilia, Harley Davidson, Ducati… but once I bought a Suzuki I was fully converted! Honda and Kawasaki are also brilliant, I will be sticking with Japanese from now on 😊
Sorry, not going back to terrible brakes and suspensions, boring and outdated bikes with terrible designs...
My 23 Norden has failed at 8k and 3 oil changes, KTM will not honour the warranty, never again will I buy their product.
😂😂😂 amazing ; what failed and why they wont warranty it ;
Insane. My father bought a Norden, and KTM will not even check the engine
Woooooooahhh!
That's a shame. I've been looking at the Norden since it's release. Now I'm leaning towards the Triumph Tiger.
@@Angry-Lynx He probably doesnt even own a Norden, hes just jumping on the bandwagon. Its the internet! Anything can be typed!
Every time I start thinking about something not Japanese (KTM, BMW, Triumph) one of these stories finds its way into my feed and saves me a host of problems.
True. But where's the 700cc Japanese thumper? And give me a dash and fuel injection!!! Only the KLR kinda competes except it doesn't
@@vistakay DR650 is good enough and Tenere 700 for the thumpty fool and feel with a twin ?
@@vistakay i guess closest comparison would be the Ducati really
@@vistakaythats my point.. japan doesnt make good thumpers anymore
Went to a Triumph dealership and I knew the owner. I talked to him and obviously he wants to sell his Triumph bikes. After the talk I walked around and went inside the workshop. I don't remember exactly but I saw 3-4 Triumph engines ripped out of bikes lying on the ground waiting to get rebuild... What did that tell me? Well I already knew but it reinforced my opinion that nothing else than Honda and Yamaha will be in my garage.
A engineer in Australia did a Rockwell hardness test on his own KTM cam shaft and it was well below the required hardness level required. My mates 890 was off the road for six months waiting for parts.
ive just been chatting to someone going RTW who has his head and cams on order to hold for shipping if needed because he knows having the parts ready to go wherever he is is the only way he can do it. parts supply is as bad a Triumph, is the 890 down with the cam issue? what have KTM said? there are more and more 890 and 901's affected that keep appearing, not good
Exactly Rob.
@@robpinter5431 Rob it’s not the cams that are the problem. It’s appearing the problem might be an issue with the drilling of the jet ports supplying oil to the cam circuit. Whether it’s a design flaw or poor quality control. It appears it’s not effecting all 890’s. Does that make it ok for ktm not to address it properly? I think Ktm is in trouble with money and its share holders won’t accept it’s as a real issue. Too bad really. The reputation alone could hurt sale enough to crash the company.
@@RobertKehl In fact, KTM is currently in the process of getting rid of hundreds of people in Austria. Even R&D is cut down.
I worked in a foundry checking hardness of the steel and also have worked in aircraft part manufacture and KTM clearly lack in quality control and make Hondas V4 problem of chocolate camshafts on their first V4 VF750 and credit to them the engine was massively over engineered after. It shows the truth on some bikes and even BMW and Moto Guzzi had issues like on the Griso. Triumph seem to be some of the best bikes produced outside Japan especially the reliability of the Tiger triples.
I'm a current Duke 390 owner and was looking at getting a 890 as my next bike but I'm not touching another KTM again after all of this. Looks like I'll be getting a MT-09 SP.
It has gone on far too long. Did you have any issues? Seen a few bad 390 cams recently too. But don’t know how common the issue is
mt-sp triple an excellent choice
@@Errol.C-nz The CP3 is a great and flexible engine for sure, you just need to be carefull with the throttle in sport mode lol
The MT09 SP is a better bike regardless of reliability.
Great choice 👍👏
As a long time BMW owner, this is exactly the kind of double talk I expect from German engineers.
German engineering is more PR than actual reality.
Ahem, German here. KTM is actually an Austrian Company!
@@stefanmargraf7878 Six of one, half a dozen of the other. Just ask Adolf Hitler. Chau chau.
@@stefanmargraf7878 yeah but .. this cross talk is about BMW PR double talk & chocolate cam followers
@@stefanmargraf7878 sorry, don’t mean to offend. It’s hard to see the border from here.
Nothing has changed there for decades. I in 2001 I saw my mate's KTM spin a bearing in the head of his 2 week old bike. They refused to repair it under warranty. They said it was a competition bike, despite the fact that it was road registered before delivery and had never been used in competition.
My buddies uncle's cousin third niece twice by marriage once had his KTM light his leg on fire and he burned all up. Back in ought 6 when we were fighting the big war....I got pictures!
They refused to “repair” it because bearings are designed to spin.
We used to get an alarming amount of KTMs in the shop i worked in, mostly their road bikes. Their flagship models seemed to be much better, but the mid range and smaller models were quite frankly, appalling.
Well done BAREBONESMC. Good info. Cross drilling for the oil galleries and inaccurate machining seem to be the problem.
No doubt. The fact that adjacent cams are in perfect condition points the finger at oil starvation. Matt´s video is right on the money.
Correct, resulting in lack of lubrication followed by excessive camshaft wear.
@@danstevens2204 simples lol,
i think poor tolerances may well be undermining the whole engine, Cheers for watching and for the comment mate. Ride Free 🙂
WOOOOW !!! 😱😱😱😱😱😱 And I was about to order one 😨😨... Tnx dealer - for not agreeing on giving me a discount 😀
I have always felt on instinct that these bikes were fool's gold. Too smarty-farty.
Something to add....KTM said they'll only goodwill the cams if one has had their bike serviced at the dealership for all previous services...so those of us who do their own maintenance like oil changes...we're outta luck!
yep, that was Charlies problem, reciept for all parts and fluids from KTM dealer and a dealer who backed him saying he had done MORE than they would have re servicing, but KTM just point blank said no to reimbursing him for the cost of cams or labour costs of the strip and rebuild (done at the dealer to their methodology)
Isn't it obvious what this is all about and intentional?
yes and dont forget that will only increase prices so they acomodate any "goodwill" with your money.....
that is normal and standard in Australia.
@@charliepyle1626 yes its called "free" warranty aka sarcasm.
Hey, not just KTM. S1000 BMW, cam followers made of cheese. You would think that, in the 100 odd years we've been hardening cams and followers and using mineral oils as lubricants you would think we'd get it right by now? As you say though " oh, it'll be ok".My mate made it to my place this summer, but the bike went back to the UK in a truck, 22,000mls on the bike! When he checked he found that there's also an S1000 BMW Facebook group, 100s of them with chocolate followers.
This is what happens when you allow the MBA´s to get a hold of the reins of a company. Amateur Night.
KTM's issues is in the oil delivery design. It's a design flaw. It can't be fixed unless precision machining is involved.
its happened too many times with too many companies for sure, but it isnt KTMs first rodeo, the LC4 had similar problems good as it was in some ways
@barebonesmc i mean toyota is frying brand new engines these days, cummins has belt driven oil pumps, EVERYTHING is built to sell quick and die soon as warranty goes out/or even b4. That way you have to keep buying things. If they build things like honda/toyota did in 1980s/90s then no one would buy new every few yrs. I worked for Toyota honda dealer up untill 2010 i saw them switch 1st hand. They didnt build crappier, they just didnt build it like it was meant to last. Sad but thats our greedy speculation based economy. Its a joke and as a species if u wana actually survive will havta change our society fundamentalally. 10k mile oil changes? Sure gives manuf green credits but wears out ur engine within 100k to where block is junk. Spun bearings in block. Warranty is a they care about change ur oil at 3k if u wana keep it
It's oil feed harding is fine choc cams bit misleading any metal on metal will wear .
20 + year orange bike fanboi ive owned 7 KTM's in total and now 1 Husqvarna but wont be buying another
A great case study of how when companies get so big, the lawyers take over. Typical language....we neither deny or acknowledge....we have a problem.
Thanks for great summary. Thank goodness I have a 2021 KTM 890 Adv.
I was looking for a 790/890 Adventure, but after reading all the concerns and especially how poorly KTM supports its customers, KTM is now off my list of brands I want to buy. I’ve now started looking at a T7 instead.
i think many will go that way, i wish the Tenere suited me better to be honest
KTM should change their colour from orange to 'lemon' yellow... Yeah I watched Matt Hudson's video & he may be on to something.
This has solidified my decision to never buy another KTM. I love my 890 but I'm done riding team orange and soon will be back with Honda.
I've had three KTM. 950 Adventure S, 450 EXC and now a 990 Adventure. They have all suffered with what I consider to be manufacturing or engineering issues. I persevered as they great bikes if you are happy to constantly throw money at them. We'll, my 990 let me down on a trip to France. I'm done with them. Far to expensive brand new and such poor reliability.
Honda, Yamaha, Suzuki and Kawasaki are the Best!🌹🤎
just Honda!
Absolutely!
The Japanese Manufacturers showed the World how to mass produce Motorcycles at the end of the 1950's....
I agree. My trust at the moment is only in the Japanese.
My gtr 1000 with 54k inlet cam and follower would beg to remind people with short memories to think before shouting how wonderful Japanese are
KTM has always been shady, in my opinion. Starting with dropping the hand shake deal with Penton in the United States back around 1977. They only seem to care about short term profits.
They have been stiff to improve and bend like they would not know better and this is who they were, over the years tho seems like the mask fell off,.. rip KTM.
re PROFIT, they arent actually doing very well at that right now, the video coming up opens up that book
@@barebonesmc fookin hopefully, thats only thing that can make them change something/ act
You must be a comedian.
@@TammyDenseDdank5658 yup ,they are done
KTM Sunday ATM Monday 😅
You have only got to see how they treat their MotoGP riders to see what sort of company they are.
Sold my KTM, and will not buy another one until this attitude changes. My new 2023 SMCR had an electrical fault within 50 miles, requiring me to check all connections at petrol station to find fault and get home. The amount of quality issues are now staggering and commonplace.When they just sold off road race bikes they got away with little warranty, they make Ducati reliable nowadays.
I was looking into Duke 125s a while ago, but kept happening upon stories of poor quality. I got an 05' Varadero XL125 instead and am very happy. One of my friends recently got a Duke 390 and it looks really naff when parked next to my Vara (I didn't tell him that though lol). Also the fit and finish and overall quality doesn't seem any better than Lexmotos I've sat on. I'm gonna be staying with Honda when I get my full license.
As somebody thats had stupid amount of motorcycles over the years, good choice, Honda and reliability go hand in hand, usually the only thing you have to watch on Honda's is reg/rec issues on some bikes, but other than that, usually bullet proof bikes, but you can't really go too wrong with any of the big 4 japanese brands, I've always been happy with my jap bikes and Triumphs. Never had a ktm, got plenty of customers at work with them in all different sizes, just never really been into them.
if i am right that engine is solid, not personal experience but i think it was derived from an older proven block
@@barebonesmc Yeah VT shadow cruiser I think from 1999. it's the same Haynes manual for both. It might even have been used before that but I'm not sure.
I realize that this is just my experience, but every single four-stroke KTM that I have ever ridden has broken down while in my possession. Some of these rides have been an hour long, some have been a few days to two weeks. Some of these breakdowns have been just bad luck, like the piece of metal that took out a tire and inner tube while on a 525 SMR test ride, or the water that got into the gas tank on a 625 SMC. But far and away, the electrical systems have been to blame for the majority of my KTM issues. Regardless, I would never, ever, buy a KTM. I haven't had any problems with the two-strokes, but the four strokes are garbage.
I've owned so far 4 KTM bikes and I had no major issues with any of them. All 4 strokes.
*Pierer Immobility 😆
pmsl :-)
😂
$1.5B in debt. They cannot afford to support their crap engineering. This is the start of the spiral that will end the company, and likely have all euro based brands bought out by Bajaj.
As a time served tech with over 40 years in the industry I recommend changing the oil pump if any excessive wear has taken place, as things wear in greater numbers those micro particles can and will get past the filters no problem and wear the delicate internals of the oil pump. Futhermore, I recommend checking the jets every couple of thousand miles to check for post manufacture swarf.
I once repaired a Husky 350 which was destroyed due to a part of the fine gauze from the long filter breaking loose after the filter was damaged, the plastic housing broke allowing small stands of the woven filter to enter the system, the metal gauze types are not as good a design as the paper filter which is better at catching and retaining small debris.
Sounds a fair analysis. But why is it ktms that always eat themselves? The LC4 did it until customers found a solution
@@barebonesmc It could have a lot to do with a change in ownership and cut backs to adjust their bottom line, as corporate ignorance sometimes takes precendence over quality, anything could and will happen again.
What happens is the designs are sold to see what might happen, using the public as an experimental platform has been done many times before and will happen again because they simply don't care.
@@DavidStevenson-gw2eo indeed 😊 I call it the Nokia approach but I don’t know if you’re old enough to remember that?😊
I have always said that you have a 95 percent chance of buying a solid trouble free bike from Japanese big 4. I have seen some good looking trash that performs well but from other brands. They ask a big price and parts are not available. Problem is they won’t look bad before they break really bad since they won’t be a year old. If people don’t buy them they will fix the issues and start building better quality bikes.
Wait how do they fix the issue if nobody buy their bikes? Dont they need money to fix it?
That won’t never happen, the press basically work as shills for the euro brands.
@@hamakaze9812 they came up with the money to start business. So they should borrow money to straighten out their problems and build what they claim they are. Repair the sold bikes or give the customers a discount for the junk they sold them.
just 2 weeks ago i met a guy who had his cam shaft changed at 5000 miles on a ktm 890 while i was there at the shop for a tyre replacement, didn't even knew about this before hand.
I'm glad I ran across your video. I was considering purchasing a KTM 890. Really wish KTM would keep the manufacturing of there bikes in Europe, where their designed. But it always seems they're thinking about the buck, not about the consumer buying the bike. And thats said, because I own a 2019 EXC 500, and love it. Have about 7000K on it , and no issues. It's a pity KTM is going in this direction. Maybe I'll be looking at the Ducati Desert X. The Italians stay true to their passion for motorcycles, and I admire that. Thank again for all the information.
Cheers.
i hear you, remember, Ducati is owned by Germans now though, and MV Agusta by Pierer Mobility group sadly, we live in an upside down world
When I was younger and my dad was looking to get me a better fitting dirt bike, he mentioned that I shouldn't consider the KTMs all that seriously because of their reliability issues coupled with the significantly higher prices, but of course I was just a teenager and didn't really understand. Now that I'm an adult and figuring out which newer street bike will be a good fit for me next year, I have a much better grasp of what he was getting at. Seeing the ridiculous amount of potential electrical issues and failures of tertiary components on these bikes is so discouraging, and makes the price of the bikes almost insulting.
The price of a bike should inherently be based on what sort of compromises the buyer will be making if they buy that bike, and KTM bikes have too many compromises. You should only be paying more for the higher performance metrics of the bike if it has the same level of reliability as the other options. But right now, you're paying significantly more money for a motorcycle that will break itself faster, and then cost you even more for the parts and maintenance compared to other manufacturers, which will also need to be replaced and redone more frequently. At this point, KTM banks on their brand loyal cultists and by flashing big numbers at people so they think they're getting the best bikes. They're the German Harley Davidson
Austrian Harley Davidson.😁
I think harley Davidson are much better then ktm
I'm too old for KTM's wheelie ads & other PR bs to have any effect, but I empathize with those who dreamt of being "ready to race" as I was once a young boy racer too....
i just said to someone else that the ready to race tag line gives them the excuse that if it blows up you should expect that lol
'Ready to Race' was originally from Husaberg, and those bikes were pretty competent. But it was understood that those bikes required short service intervals, like most racing machines.
Husaberg - Hindenburg
KTM - READY TO REBUILD
@@MotoRidesVietnam ... or "keep training mechanics" ...
I'm glad I passed on the 790 and bought a Suzuki DR650SE. I was tempted, but I also had a brand new 1975 Norton Commando, so I knew not to buy a European bike.
So pleased my gut instinct was not to trust KTM. This was before this chino-austrian shitshow started. Rattly XR camchain aside i went the right way. So far..
fingers crossed 🙂Cheers for watching and for the comment mate. Ride Free 🙂
Was dreaming of a KTM 690. Now healed by you. Having DRZ , KLR and a XT.
get a '00-'08 (watercooled) XR650R + oversize fuel tank
@@Emily-ou6lq we dont have that in germany🥲
@@stefanmargraf7878 Es gibt wahrscheinlich nicht viele aber es gibt sie in D
Get an Xr650r. Absolute weapon with bomb proof reliability. Can uncork to just under smc power and is 20kg lighter.
LOL, my 2021 690 SM, my first KTM after plenty of japanese bikes was the best bike I ever had, very little problems in 10k miles including winter use and weekly track riding...
KTM cam problems go back even further. The LC4 engines are notorious for intake rocker roller failure, and subsequent destruction of the cam. LC4's have two oil pumps, but neither pump oil up to the valvetrain. That task is left up to the cam chain. The simple question is "WHY?".
I remember that era. Another "great bike" to avoid
@@MotoRidesVietnam it's a really good engine otherwise. I drilled the cam box a d added a banjo line from the filter.
@@maarten_notjustagrip glad you got the knowledge to work it out. I live in Vietnam, so not that many KTMs here, let alone a competent mechanic you'd want working on your bike. Still, I had to have a solid street legal 450 in my stable, so bought 1 of 5 KTM's in the country 😂 She's been pretty good to me so far 2015 EXC model 👍
@@MotoRidesVietnam I came very close to going to VN to open a Moto service center, aimed at expats.
@@maarten_notjustagrip would be nice to see
Tenere 700. There have been a few problems with the T7, but nothing as serious. The clutch had some issues. It needs a chain guide for off road. The bike and the engine (CP2) is solid. I would be broke and severely depressed if I bought a KTM and the cams melted away like plastic.
Isnt there something about a front engine mount in crash damage? but yep, with any new model there will be issues, it is the extent, and how the problems are managed
But a T7 is not a comparable bike to an 890. The T7 is totally gutless compared to the KTM.
@@jonathanr72 I still remember a test off road with an old transalp a new transalp and a 790r. The reality was that all the extra power and tricks of the new ones made almost no difference to take off or speed off road. On road maybe different but that’s a different story 😊
@@barebonesmc Of course, but as far as general purpose bikes for the everyday rider goes, the T7 just isn't a fun bike to have in the garage, while the KTM is. Personally I have a CFMOTO 800MT.
@@jonathanr72 I think plenty of T7 owners would disagree but it’s not my choice 😊 but we do all want different things 😊
I'm always surprised people still buy KTM motorcycles with their known reliability issues. Most motorcyclists do their homework before a purchase or PCP deal. I was all set to buy the KTM 1190 Adventure back in 2016, did my homework for a few weeks and soon changed my mind. Bought an old Honda Hornet as a temp bike and spent the next seven years going everywhere on it with absolutely no problems apart from consumables and regular servicing.
Who's dumb enough to buy *any* KTM or KTM clone expecting quality?
KTM will rue the day they decided to avoid responsibility that´s for sure.
@@rafaellastracom6411you would hope so. But it’s not the first time. And only 1 of the issues with the 790 engine.
The interesting thing is Floyd. The engines are all built by cf Moto but cf motos own bikes don’t seem to suffer the same issues as I’ve been digging
@@barebonesmc - they're probably built to looser spec, where it doesn't show up.
Maybe, just maybe, CF moto might have an agenda? @@barebonesmc
You can engineer a powerful bike, a light bike, a snazzy marketing scheme, fancy PR events and commercials, but none of that will gloss over reliability issues. Unreliability is not an easy reputation to walk back.
Hard for sure. But not impossible. Honda are testament to the fact it can be done😊
Yikes! I was seriously considering a KTM 790! Ended up with a Honda tho..
Glad I found out before I got stuck w/ an bike turned statue or anchor ...... Cams were eaten up ! Thanks
I think anyone should be skeptical of reliability when an engine is cranking out a large amount of power compared to its displacement. Look at the klr. Its reliability can be attributed to its low power output. Favoring longevity over performance.
The reality is most motorcycle customers do not understand engineering challenges, or the fact that race engine lives are not measured in miles, but hours. KTM designs are fundamentally different than Japan, but there are good reasons why Japan avoids those designs.
Many comments here revert to xenophobia, but most Japanese bikes are no longer built in Japan and they have no QC issues in other countries.
It's oil feed, and the problem goes beyond 2021 models. I experienced a brief taste of this before hearing of it.
Rode a low miles 2022 890 Adventure bike for two days last fall. On the second day, as we were approaching a gas station, the engine seemed to be lacking power, and I began to hear a noise (I call it "rocks and popcans") coming from the head. I killed power and coasted into the gas station where we immediately checked the oil level. It was fine.
We gassed up and let the bike sit for a few. It restarted and ran normally after that.
The bike wasn't mine and the owner claimed the noises I had heard were "normal" for a KTM. In my travels I have heard a few motors run low on oil, and that was the exact noise I heard coming from the 890.
As a footnote, I had also considered buying my own 890 at one point as it had otherwise been a decent bike. Based on this and a few similar blogs I'm glad I didn't follow through. Customer service is king and if that's the best they can do then I'll get a ricer.
Cheers for adding your bit mate. it all helps seeing the bigger picture. Ride Free 🙂
I was burned with the leaky airbox issue on my 1190R. In the end ktm covered the cost of parts for a full top end rebuild but I got the labour bill of $3500. Total repair bill was $6800 CAD. Previous owner bought an extended warranty ($1800) but the fine print voided the warranty if any aftermarket parts were installed on the bike. I left it and the problem eventually presented itself so I presented my claim to the insurer. They produced further fine print in the policy that stated and damage downstream of a maintainable part is not covered under warranty - basically the entire engine. The whole thing left a really bad taste in my mouth. If you buy any 3rd party extended warranty, READ THE FINE PRINT, it's probably not worth the paper it's written on. I still have the bike (45000km) and it's served me well after I installed aftermarket filtration. Buddies all moved to 890's but I will be sitting on the sidelines until this can issue is sorted out.
What aftermarket filtrations?
I don't care how big any 'screen' is, they are there to catch something which should not be there - damn great lumps of camshaft!
I don't agree with you that swarf is always present, the problem is the size of the debris. Well designed engines debris is a massive order of magnitude smaller than the lumps of cam flying around due to all of the problems with the cross drilling. Everything else you said is correct. If KTM are so hands-free of the quality control in the Chinese engine plant, they have just learned a VERY expensive lesson.
If, and only if, KTM fully sort this problem like Ducati did with the valves on the V4's, they will be ok, but if they don't, it will destroy their reputation and they will collapse.
I await the next big thing "if you owned a KTM 790/890 between 2018 & 2024, you could be owed up to £12000".
How very last millenium.
Ktm seem to have always given up reliability for slightly higher performance from what I've seen, sometimes they get away with it (or the ktm riders just accept more cost and maintenance for it) their engines always sound tappity and in aus used to run hot all the time whereas I had a yamaha yz 250 for 10 yrs and did 1 top end rebuild and changed the gearbox oil 4 times at most. (Weekend warrior, not racer)
I agree, my 450 sounds like rubbish unless you are riding her full song... All the online resources available indicated that "it's normal... Its just the way KTM sounds"... WTF 😂
Who remembers the 13-15 generation KTM 350s with the oil pump plastic gears melting resulting in complete engine destruction?
At least my 450 is still going
Owner of a 2018 790 duke here, with about 14000km on the clock. This got me really worried… I wanted to go to the dealer to get it checked, however if they deem everything is fine, I’m still up for the cost of taking the top end apart and putting it back.
I didn’t see much metal particle during my last oil change so fingers crossed 🤞
Was considering changing to the CFMOTO 800MT…. No way I’m going there now 😡
After 25 years of ktm, I am now on a Yamaha. 2023 300xc had a random bog that could not be fixed. Ktm said the bike would have to experience the issue wile hooked up to the computer because it wasn’t throwing codes. I replaced everything but the tps, the power valve servo and ecu. At that point it was way cheaper to get rid of. The bike eventually bogged on a jump sending me to hospital with 2 broke ribs and a busted spleen
thanks for adding this mate and im sorry, hope the ribs have healed ok. i prefer happy stories, but sometimes things need to be said so thanks again
@@barebonesmc it was about 10 weeks ago, all healed up and on a 2024 yz250 and jumping again.
I had a 200 EXC and the sump plug stripped when torquing it up.
It got replaced under warranty. They sent it off to get the casing tested and found the casing was to soft, not in spec.
Honda had soft camshaft problems with their first V4 models. Still a very successful family grew out of it, the VFR and 800 having a near indestructible reputation. I doubt they handled things in this lackluster way. Does anybody remember? And then there is the China question indeed. Are the CF built bikes equally affected? The typical thing is these so called high tech brands often depend on a lot of propaganda to hammer in how good their bikes are. Often the owners however simply act as a Beta-tester crowd. This is a universal problem nowadays anyway. Design it in software, test it as little as possible, see what happens in the real world after selling it and fix it if things go awry. Or not! 🤑
m109 2nd gear dogs springs to mind
Reminds one of the BMC/BL approach to product development...
Brought a new gsx750fk in 89 . First of the slingshot engine and i got one of the first bikes here in nz. They had cam issues and dealt with it really well. After 17k the cams were stuffed . Fixed under warranty and cams sent back to japan for analysis. Suzuki soon sorted the issue. Around the same time the kawasaki gpx 750 had similar issues due to the high revving short stroke mtrs that manufacturers had gone to. As to vf hondas the solution to top end issues was to go to gear driven cams,great bike ,the gear cam ones that is.
@@chrisweeks6973 Haahahaha.. ive never heard anything soooo funny.. BMC NEVER had any strategy for development.. THAT.. was a corporate gone mad if ever.. i have 5 minis & a 1300gt & a looong history with land crabs etc.. first car ever was a 66 mk2 3.8 mod fresh out of school in 75.. bought it instead of a 66 etype coupe.. parents convinced me it was more practical regreted it ever since.. good old bad old days when e types had near no value at all
@@robmcilroy1894 So that’s how the “cheap” Japanese do it. But we in the “superior” West ….
A update, it's the oil pump that has to low oil pressure,i repaired a lot of ktm ,450 exf and they have the same problem ,in low revs the oil doesn't squirt on the cam ,so rev it and keep it in the top revs
Thanks for sharing. I know that is a theory and also that cf Moto and I believe kove too. Have replaced spring in oil pump relief valve to a 3.5 bar spring rather than the ktm 2.5 bar spring but too early to tell if it’s had an impact. Also. Dirt ingress seems to be coming up a lot now. Either as a ktm excuse not to repair but also with the cf Moto 800. Cf Moto Dealers advised to replace airbox seal with aftermarket one. It’s a complex one until ktm actually do any major redesign work
Camshaft and lifter issues can often be traced back to MA2 oils. These oils have low zinc to meet the requirements of a catalytic converter. If these bikes have a catalytic converter, I guarantee you they’re running low zinc. Zinc is a protective layer in these, high stress areas. Without it it’s a certainty that you will have major wear issues.
Best answer here! I AGREE 100 PERCENT! 1 OZ ZINC ADDITIVE PER QT. OIL😊 THE YAMAHA TR-1 WAVE RUNNER HAS SAME CAM- TAPPET EATING ISSUES,I suspect yamaha out sourcing cams etc from china as well,buyer be aware these days😮
Doesn't really explain why half the cams are fine while some are ruined, if the oil was the cause then they would surely all look similar.
@@elobiretv made in china poor metal and spotty heat threating methods along with no zinc oil
ZDDP is not the only EP antiwear additive. The lubricant companies have much more engineering and testing expertise than the average end-user does. I've never had a cam-and-lifter wear issue on any DOHC shim-under-bucket engine, whether car/truck or bike. The large diameter of the buckets forced by the need to accommodate the valve spring underneath, and to accommodate the valve lift geometry, spreads out the load more so than with a finger-follower, and also the interface sees only the valve-spring pressure, not a multiple of it in the case of a finger-follower with more than a 1:1 motion ratio (which they all are).
@@elobiretv if they were all running the “ same “ oil, your point have some validity. Unfortunately we know they weren’t.
Metal expert here. For that steel to be THAT color. That means the camshaft lobe would need to reach over 400F! Meaning it is twice the temp of average oil temperatures in a healthy motor! Not to mention to produce coloration in steel it must oxidize, meaning that the lobe would need to be dry enough for oxygen contact in the engine chamber.
Interesting. The engineers are weighing in on the fb group now too. Hardness testing down at around 30hrc and one guy doing impact analysis on opening of valves. So the story is ever evolving but thanks for this
I have two thoughts on this. Why have the UK retail regulators not got involved and acted? and how are KTM still selling new bikes in the UK if their warranty is worthless?
their warranty is one of the most complicated documents there is lol, and i wasnt joking, the holes are written into it. ie, guarantee is void if .................. and a long list of get outs. thats a question you need to ask the regulators i think lol. but the reality is, it is still a small if growing number of bikes that are affected, the inconsistency is the real killer, because no one knows if they have a time bomb between their legs, even after rebuilds i have seen sub 2000 mile cams ripped up, and now there is a backlog on parts supply
Warranties are a joke. A false sense of security. However, only a matter of time before KTM is subject to a class action lawsuit.
@@truantraywise words 😊
Its a damn shame, the 790/890 is an awesome design with great performance, was about to buy one and read all about this cam issue. Its good that you have narrowed it down, bad design of the lubrication galleries, something that cant be fixed. Lately ive seen alot of 790s going for alot less on the second hand market, the reputation has caught up with the bike!
Ended up on a T7 but fornd that top heavy, on a 21 690 now, figured the LC4 engine has the runs on the board to be reasonably dependable, still, its an expensive bike once you add the tasty mods. Ktm really blew it with the twin, very disappointing. Ive had 9 Ktm enduros, they have all been solid. 2 or 4 stroke. My latest 18 300 xc has been incredible, so they can build a great bike.
to be clear, it is only (relatively) a small number of bikes affected, but it is growing, and for me the uncertainty is just not worth it
Why would anyone buy a bike from KTM given their poor customer service?
I saw a recent video on this subject by the dirty garage channel. He has it pinned down to the oiling of the camshafts and he makes perfect sense imho. In short, it has to do with casting tolerances and the oil spray nozzles. Metallurgical testing of the camshafts themselves show no issues with the metal itself. Interesting video to watch even if the man is more mechanic then a RUclips talent imho.
Much of his footage seems to have been copied and used here in this video. He is a technician, this guy is just reciting the work of others.
Ktm 790 motor is the same motor they use in CFMoto 800 and kove 800x. To my knowledge they use the same motor and did a lot of changes. One of them they fixed the camshaft problem. I think Kove and CFmoto will not use a motor knowing it have problems with out fixing it. I talking about the new one of 20204
Yes I read that but there is no actual evidence they have redesigned or even corrected the camshaft issue just the usual internet babble no doubt CF Moto and kove owners will find out in the future
We shall see. Been trying to find out exactly what changes they made n getting nowhere
the term .. collaboration seems to have lost its meaning in recent times .. unless it carries profit scheming under tow .. .. .. like this .. short cutting engineering reinventing the wheel & pushing to us its a rounder fairer wheel when in fact its square .. it'll round itself out .. in time .. oh faaark I've become a sinic .. Kove & CF same motor ?
@@Errol.C-nz something i have been asking for is a statement by CF Moto and Kove about exactly what changes they have made, no response so far, all i get is we improved it. one persons comment suggested the lower power output will make it less of an issue, which might well help, but won't solve the problem. with a 10 year end of life, in China that makes sense, it will make the engine last longer, and maybe until that 10 year mark, but for a market that still routinely rides 25 to 30 year old bikes? and/or does very high mileages? im not so sure, which is why i keep asking.
@@barebonesmc would be interesting to get kove & CF cams & do a rockwell test.. i do rather like the Kove but.. think ill keep my sights on the well proven tdm900 when the time comes.. superb chassis & remarkable engine.. soon
KTM=Kathe Triti Mastora=Every Tuesday Mechanic. We been calling this since the early 2000s and the first Dukes.
the other facourite is KEEP TAKING MONEY lol
Have been very tempted by an 890 smt but these horror stories put me off. Even heard lots having issues with the 690 smc and 701…and having very poor experiences with dealers regarding warranty claims etc. Not cool.
"690 smc and 701" I know three of those that have been sold back to KTM as lemons.
Just my personal experience, but I have a 2020 Husqvarna 701 Enduro that I've clocked over 38,000 miles on without any major issues. I had a Tenere 700 on deposit and after a year of waiting I found a guy on craigslist in June of 2022 that had the Husky bone stock with about 4,000 miles on it. I figured I'd pick it up till the Tenere came in.
I never owned a KTM or Husqvarna bike before so I'm not a brand fan boy or anything. I saw all the doom and gloom of people on the forums repeating the same things conflating KTM quality overall with the 690/701 LC4's. Knowing how internet forums work you where you have a handful of occupational forum trolls that don't even ride that just keep posting the same nonsense every day creating a mythology of sorts.
I do my own mechanical work for any vehicle I own so I figured I'd give the 701 a shot and if any issues came up I knew I could deal with it. Well I'm glad I did as in the past 2 years I have put over 34,000 miles on it with only 2 minor issues. I have taken the bike to Death Valley, Mojave desert, Moab, all around Arizona, New Mexico, Colorado, South Dakota, etc. I ride it every day even running errands and grabbing groceries weather permitting. I drive the piss out it and in all that time the only issues it's ever had were;
1. The clutch slave cylinder is a legit issue as the o-rings will fail. The original owner had already replaced it with a rekluse slave cylinder and I have not had a single issue.
2. About 5,000 miles my stator failed. I had just replaced the lead acid battery with a lithium about 100 miles prior and I thought it was the battery at first, but it was the stator after I tested it. A coincidence with the battery change? Who knows, replaced with an OEM stator and have not had a single issue since.
3. About 20,000 miles I developed a pin hole leak in the radiator on the lower left side. Simple solder fix and have not had any other issues.
I have zero regrets with the 701. So much so that I lost interest in the Tenere 700 due to it coming in 100lbs heavier and being much top heavier. Despite how good that twin sounds compared to a single thumper.
I gave my Husky the typical ADV treatment's; Rade Garage Rally tower, aux fuel tank/foam air filter, wings exhaust, etc., and it's proven the perfect lightweight adventure bike for me as I do a lot of solo backcountry riding.
The guy I bought it from got a KTM 1290 adventure R and we've become friends that ride together. With the Rade aux fuel tank and the 55mpg average, I can keep up with him in pace and fuel stops no problem on the 701 as I get average 260miles range on the 4.7gallons total fuel capacity.
I think the biggest problem is that social media sites like RUclips, and various bike forums tend to keep repeating the same issues that a handful of people have had. And over years it becomes an "everyone has had this issue" kind of thing. I've meet numerous guys in my travels on 690/701's and I ask them what issues they've encountered, and other than the clutch slave O-ring failure nothing systemic.
Comparing things like KTM 2 stroke issues that get rode hard and put a way wet, then blown up, to LC4 issues is not a fair comparison. Absent empirical data it's hard to quantify what are real issues vs. stuff guys keep repeating they heard and going in a doom loop.
One thing that is universal though is poor dealer support! And that is pretty much any dealer these days across all brands and not representative of the manufactures. Personally I would never let a dealer mechanic touch any of my vehicles, but again I do all my own work which others are not in a position to, or capable of doing themselves so are dependent on the stealerships.
So I guess the point is the same one Benjamin Franklin said some years ago, "You can't believe everything you read on the internet". LOL
I was the same. Got excited about the 890 SMT, but then started seeing immediate reports of so many different types of quality issues. Immediately decided it wasn't for me.
Having owned 2 KTM's after a huge amount of Japanese Bikes I can confirm unless it's free I wouldn't own another
Can’t argue on that
Didn’t know about KTM (Austrian) getting engines built by CF (China) oh dear!!!. IMO buy Japanese. No intention to ever buy KTM, BMW, Aprillia and even worse Ducati. Forgot about crap like MV Augusta and Moto Guzzi. Only “European” bike I would buy is a Triumph. Still prefer Japanese. My TL1000S is still going strong after 27 years
Hello Davy. I'm curious to hear why you label Moto Guzzi as "crap". Is this from personal experience? They are not very common so there is not a big owners group reporting problems. Any owner reviews I do see are very positive about the 'bikes (less so about the dealer network, but you say the 'bikes themselves are crap). Can you explain how you came to this conclusion?
And a big proportion of Triumph and some Ducati are made in Thailand. Better than anything out of China.
to be clear, KTM dont just have the engines made by CF Moto, ALL OF THEIR SUB 1000cc MOTORCYCLES ARE MADE ENTIRELY in either India or China the only bikes now made in Austria are the race bikes and the Super Duke and Super Adventure, some sweeping statements there though lol, we all have our favourites 🙂 i am one of the people who describe Aprilia as the Italian Honda though, and i have a love hate relationship with Triumph lol, great, until they break. parts supply in the UK is abysmal and dealers are attrocious IMO. and i am a Triumph owner lol
Cf moto owns ktm
@@MaxWilly1979 nope, Pierer Mobility owns KTM, CF Moto have minor shares in PMG, but Bajaj group are the biggest single shareholders now
Keep in the mind the KTM’s LCR engine used in the 690 is virtually bulletproof these days, though technically the bike is not a direct replacement for the 890 (a bit less roadworthy/more dirt-oriented).
Its the frustrations with the brand that keeps the customers buying their garbage. Stockholm syndrome?
sales figures seem to show even the diehard ktm fanboys are moving away now
Someone opened up a brand new 701sm on Reddit and the camshaft was shot from the start! Massive scoring and lobe wear from factory!
on a brand new engine? thats a whole new problem, cheers for adding
Won't touch a KTM!
These are the stories I hear which make me stay away from getting a Duke. Thanks for making the video.
I considered buying an 890 Duke, I'm glad I didn't. However, the Speed Triple RS I bought has an overheating problem the dealer can't fix. Even after the fan shroud and ECU remap were done, it still over heats, or at least "thinks" it's over heating. So, like KTM, the Triumph's fix isn't a fix at all.
Honestly all fun bikes suffer from the same thing.... Like they say you can build a bike in 3 ways : fun reliable and cheap but you can only get 2 at the same time... And we all customers are kind of responsible for this... Would you buy a 35k reliable ktm? Or a 40k fun Honda?
Don’t get me started lol. You will see I don’t hold back with triumph either lol. I am a long suffering owner. Great bikes. Shit parts supply n fitters who haven’t got a clue. No real mechanics in any triumph dealers I know
@@ricardomorales1039 I’d have to disagree on that one. You’ve obviously never ridden a Cagiva 😊
@@barebonesmc unreliable and expensive?
@@ricardomorales1039 not my experience at all, or that of many many Cagiva family, the Gran Canyon and Navigator are both masterpieces, one Ducati powered with a bombproof detuned Ducati 900SS engine the other with an equally brilliant TL1000 block, How many of the Yamaha and Honda 2 stroke 125s of that era are still doing as well as the Mito's? or have such a cult following? even the TZR125 is no comparison, but i guess if you are across the pond prices may well have been and still are more. regardless, not expensive to maintain at all, and thats not even mentioned the bike with such a following both Ducati and MV tried to copy it just last year. the Elefant is openly described by most people who have ridden it as the best adventure bike ever made, still, so we will have to disagree on this one 🙂 but thats allowed lol
I would suggesting sending oil samples to a Laboratory at oil change milage. That kind of camshaft wear will show up in an oil sample. Also cut open your used oil filter.
many oil filters done, some clean some not, re the oils, i think that is happening now, there have been more bulletins in some countries too
I think this is a KTM problem and an engineering problem or making there engines completely overstressed. Cf moto bikes are detuned compared with the models from ktm. The cfmoto 300 sr engine apparently a single from the past based on kwacka ķlx 300 design. This is a 30bhp max engine, but in the case of KTM its a 390 cc bored lump making over 40 bhp. The same with the KTM 790 vs cfmoto 801. The KTM has had its neck rung out. The husky is allowed the premium power as the The KTM and blows up because of it. I bet CF moto are laughing all the way to the bank as they seem way more reliable than the bikes engines they are ordered to make for others. CF moto I would expect where told to make the premium price brands have more power to justify the ridiculous price. Also KTMs were never reliable bikes, sitting in the european place of old Ducati..
Was about to pull the trigger on a 790, glad I found this video thanks for the info! Going to have to start looking at other options.
to be clear, it isnt all that are suffering, but it is a growing number, join the FB group linked in description and you will see more
My dog's theory is that the cats are doing it.
I'd question your dogs motives for saying such things. And don't let him near any bikes.😆
I find it immensely frustrating watching reviewers continue to rave about a KTM after riding it for a few hours with no intention of ever owning one. Despite KTM quality issues having been known for years, it seems many people either still don't know, or just don't care. And so the bikes keep selling.
although many are maybe down, i dont think many have had the 60% drop in revenue that KTM have in the past year so they are suffering because of decisions around this
KTM should have staid with Rotax .They know how to Build relaiable Engines.
Seeing that severe wear on two cams, but normal wear on the cams at the opposite end does it for me.
Better off with a Royal Enfield!
It's such a shame. The bikes are awesome fun. But reliability is a priority.
I never really understood why people buy these ugly bikes. My brother keeps asking me to ride his 1290SD telling me "once you ride it you'll buy one and never look back". How the flip am I going to be able to even get on the bike when I'm puking into my helmet as I approach that thing? Or is it another case of "You don't look at the mantlepiece while you're stoking the fire..."? 😂
KTM is acting like a girlfriend that has no accountability.
A good point well put mate 🙂Cheers for the comment. Ride Free 🙂
Damn love KTM products but now this type of garbage along with the Pay to unlock the performance of your bike is just pure greed and will eventually kill your brand JMO
I am glad I sold my first gen790 in time and the 901 after that also, before they could developmthat problem. Even healthy ktm engines sound like a shaking box of loose bolds, so its not easy to detect without opening the engine. Had it only been for defect itself, I still would buy from Pierer, but adding their denial of their problem will make me definetly move to another brand if I should want to get rid of the 701 I am riding now. Let's hope I will not ride a bike of an oboslete brand, soon. However I don't know anz other bike with that weight to power to fun ratio.
I was going to suggest this was a cam hardening *and* oiling issue, but it’s not. This is most likely an oil supply issue exacerbated by blocked screens (blocked with bits of cam). Many years back Honda had an issue with a bad batch of case hardened cams and the wear is very different… if the oil supply is maintained. I was affected and repaired my own bike.
As you have observed engineers and lawyers working for the same company often have differences of opinion.
i think the accuracy of the cross drillings is now pretty obviously implicated, but that spiders web of galleries is never going to help, my guess is they increased oil pressure to try and get around it, but by creating the multiple choke points they have in the block, flow will be disrupted and those pockets will create turbulence, which itself disrupts the flow more, an angle of over 90 degrees within a gallery is a basic mistake by an engineer that doesnt really understand flow dynamics though in my honest opinion, yes it can be done, but you are making your own job harder by doing it, and creating points where a back wash is fighting against the main oil flow. if the cams always ate the head, the you could surmise it was hard cams or soft head or followers, if the cams get eaten, then surmise the cams arent hardened properly, the inconsistency of the problem points at oil flow and always has. what i find fascinating (and will be in next video) is that CF Moto versions of the engine DON'T seem to be having the same issue so far, although only time will tell. i have a feeling this story will just run on and on, and that most of the internal wranglings will never be heard in public. It would affect 3 very big corporations a lot to go public now. oh what a tangled web they weave.
@@barebonesmc Oil system design and tolerance issues….. hence manufacturers reluctance to talk about it. The fact that the cam bearing surfaces have been worn in the head really does point to oil flow issues. I feel badly for the people that lost out on this, it’s very unfair.
@@christianweller4288 yep, not a good situation.
What ever happened to the grand ol Dame, the original 990?❤❤❤👍👍🙏🙏🇬🇧🇬🇧🏍️🏍️
Just been staying with a mate who still has his 😊
Why the hell do you buy these bikes? It's been known for years that KTM has huge quality problems.
If you want a KTM twin. Stick with the OG, LC8. It is a shame that a company such as KTM has turned into the big corporation now. Happy to be feeding out such rubbish. I feel sorry for the consumers, but also the dealers. They are in the middle, having to deal with the consequences at their own costs. And it's not just cam and oiling issues. The KTM products seem to be filled with canbus and other warranty issues.
It’s like they took a company that had issues. And then made those issues worse and added more