"I didn't really read the guidelines." - the creator of Linux and Git I love this guy. He's brutally honest and what makes him special is how practical he is. It's refreshing to see someone who is technical but sees the system from an average user's perspective.
Also jeez, these people need to stop arguing with Torvalds about him insulting people. This is about the Linux kernel and it's distributions, not problems with Torvalds.
Outside of the Steamdeck, this still hasn't materialized 8 years after this talk. I'm not holding my breath. ...Actually, Microsoft may be the ones that bring Linux (the kernel) to the desktop by way of merging it with Windows.
yes but it is necessary. We have shit from the 1970s that works REALLY well with today's stuff and that is amazing. The extent of hardware it all works on is well worth it. I can jump on a Pentium PRO box vs a Core i7 box and run VERY similar software albeit at different speeds, but it not only works, but works well together. The result of your hard work maintaining legacy code cuts down on e-waste drastically. I mean drastically. Legacy is important. @@MamboBean343
Fork it. Move on. Legacy actual bug support is silly on so many levels. People shouldn't be developing for loophole flaws in the first place, not for stability nor sound functional foundations to build off of. It's legitimately crazy if your goal is making the best OS platform you can. Linux isn't Windows on either side of the spectrum (legacy vs. the socially engineered); it's its own spectrum.
To clarify, yes, don't break user space functionality, absolutely, but give them the opportunity to move forward in a sound way with relevant warnings upfront, not automatic implementation with only an afterthought. It's proactive programming for a better system potential as a whole vs. complacency.
Well put. If a loophole can be closed without sacrificing something, it should be done. Documentation is the most important thing above anything else. That way whomever comes after can pick up either where you left off or where you didn't want to go and go where you didn't have the energy while keeping your philosophy in mind. @@WR3ND
This Q & A session highlights one of the things I absolutely *admire* about Linus: He is just so goddam practical! Whenever I get the temptation to ignore the actual real world, as it *actually* is, I just need to watch a talk from Linus to get my head straight again. It's not an antithesis to idealism, but when you marry the two you get pragmatism, which at the end of the day tends to produce the best results, methinks.
He's not practical; he's dogmatic. His adherence to his expressed principles appears to provide more in terms of moral satisfaction than actual utility to the kernel. His fervor about the matter shows that he does not have data by which to demonstrate the utility of his position.
From this Q&A, I got that Linus really cares about the users and isn't one of those idiots that thinks having to deal with bugs and difficult installations builds "character"
This guy is far from the abrasive/abusive character he's been built up as. He just takes his passion seriously and isn't willing to compromise on the things he finds important. Some of his quotations may seem abusive and arrogant on paper, but when you hear his delivery and the way he speaks, he doesn't appear like that at all, but rather comes off as a down-to-earth person with a sense of humour. He actually looks relatively meek and humble. I've seen people with accomplishments and stations far lesser and lower than his, with an incomparably more inflated sense of ego, and a much more difficult and toxic personality. Linus's insults are far milder than the average level of insults in other professions: I just get the feeling the software development and IT community isn't used to anything outside of completely dry, religiously civil and sterile discourse with anodyne humour.
I don’t have an issue with most of his behavior but some of it is unprofessional. Whether or not that is an issue is a different story, but there’s no question that cursing and personal attacks on people are unprofessional, no matter how mild.
he said someone should be retroactively aborted and he's surprised they couldn't find their mother's tit. that's blatantly being an asshole - whether or not you tolerate it is up to you
People need to realize that Linus is not a Systems Engineer nor a UNIX engineer. He writes kernel code. People who do this for a living want a machine configured for them.
Personally, I like Torvalds' invective. I find it imaginative and interesting, and then people move on. Or they don't move on and get stuck on the words rather than the technical argument.
"Respect is something that is earned, Respect is not something to just be given"... "That" is why Linus Torvalds is a success in his field, and is why these people are standing in line to ask him a question, and not the other way around...
@@meathead919 Contrary to most other people he is HONEST. What matters are the facts, not the words. It's his right to have a controversial sense of humor. Look at what Linus did throughout his life, and what most of those politically correct people do! A world with more people like Linus and less political correctness (because kids take offense) would most likely be far better!
I fell on this video while pulling my hair out trying to make something work on linux and it felt like every issue i have ever had with linux writ large. It is beautiful.
Lol. As a German I'm feeling exhausted by people criticizing Linus for his behaviour. It's a v different culture than English speaking ones like UK, US. For us truth is respect. Phony politeness without meaning it- well, phony. Off putting. Creating distrust even at times. Critism helps grow. Blunt critism when talking to a person you have no other relation to except through tec is fine. It's not like Linus is walking down the street insulting random people. He gives feedback, unmasked and sometimes unasked. German, Polish, Russian, French , Italian. .... even Chinese- none would ever have a problem with this. Maybe what's the problem is a lack of understanding of different cultures and mindsets coming from different angles. And for that I can only encourage traveling and living in non English speaking countries for those with English as their first language. I'm certain that would massively help understand.
What are you talking about? Germany is a totally pussified country by now, destroyed by political correctness. You can't even say what you think without going to jail. You even censored your own anthem not to offend foreigners. Maybe YOU are honest and care about truth, your country certainly doesn't.
@@lucioinnocenzo2328 OMG the only pussy here is you, crying about an obscure steal of free speech, spoken out freely by and probably without reflecting enough on yourself before. Go follow your alt-right bullshit but PLEASE don't give up upon growing up, because being empathic and nice IS NOT a weakness, it is a complete natural skill you should adopt while growing adult. There is no choice between being nice and being honest and I guess and hope that because of your rational thinking (that you are probably are so proud of) you will sooner or later get this point. :)
This man might not be the most polite out there. But the kind of articles people put up straight up smearing what kind of man he is is what made me realise, something is really fucked up about our drive for inclusiveness. It is being driven by demonizing people instead of talking to them with empathy, and these are the people who are trying to preach empathy
He has humility, humor, and honesty. Each of those is worth more than 'polite' by my standard. Being abrasive buffers you from insufferable overly-sensitive fools that care about such things more than actual productivity. P.C. should stand for personal computer, not "politically correct"-- that's a language of authoritative control.
Linus is so true on ABI compatibility for user apps. The Win32 API is basically stable since 1995, that like roughly 20 years... Yeah, start that simple C program from 1995, thats ok, but how about that Loki games from the 2000s?
WHY DID I ENJOY THIS SO MUCH??? I've always had reservations about Linux based OS, mainly because of what I considered over-hyped security and eccentric interface controls. I was overly pleased to hear that Linus himself has had issues with specifically the security wing of development. The man really is amazing. He talks bluntly and has no fear of what he says. It's not about being politically correct, it about saying whats downright true. Even better is to see a few butthurt in the crowd, those that actually took offense to what he said.
“Respect is earned, not given.” Love this explanation from Linus. Pretty much, you are given respect when you earn it. You can tell how many people are soft and won’t handle failure well. I agree with Linus and it’s rewarding 2 fold. When people recognize your hard work and efforts, they will support you and motivate you to succeed. When you get the recognition from your hard work, you yourself will feel appreciated and will strive to do better. Just imagine if everyone got a raise, or if everyone was promoted, regardless if someone works or is lazy. This would defeat the purpose of healthy comptetition. Glad to see Linus upset the soy mindsets in Portalnd during this conference.
"if it's a bug people rely on then it's a feature" is one of the best software dev takes ive seen in a long time. (interestingly most of the good ones I've found come from Linus)
Linus is right in the packaging topic. While now there are working projects to fix the mullti distro deployment issue, it will take many years to get accepted and used as a main source of application instalation method. The other problem I see is the per distro packaging itself and how packages are splitted in minor minor ones. When you look at some packages, they have a main package, a config file package, a plugins or optional package, development (or debug) package, etc, etc. That splitting make sometimes installing packages, specially for development a pain. They should learn from Android, that when a user want an app, it should install the whole app, and not only the binaries. And until Linux distributions don't addressed that, imo there will have no desktop future.
Common decency and proffessionalism are not the same thing as respect (I feel most people are arguing semantics in disguise here). While all those things are valuable, they are not neccessities, one might place the virtue of truth above them and who's to say this is wrong? It is a matter of taste. I think people just get sour when a person they've revered has disappointed them. You might agree that false altruism may be considered by some to be a worse trait than brutal honesty.
@Yahmez Just so. Linus is just giving his practical use opinion and some tough love, though I'd argue that he does seem a little bit like a shark lost in the woods here, to be honest.
+BenRangel yes, exactly. Making changes on the kernel that causes an application to stop working as expected (like crashing or any other kind of unexpected behaviour) is unnaceptable.
anything that changes the behavior of userspace applications pretty much. it doesnt even have to crash, for example if you change an abi, it can just result in the app passing garbage arguments to a syscall, which usually doesnt crash.
The problem with linux is that a lot of the end user software just isnt very good. Hes also completely right about the multiple distribution thing, as a developer why the hell do i have to target distributions with their own pet packaging requirements rather than just “linux”. End users dont care but they put the responsibility onto me and i then have to worry about quirks of a particular distribution rather than my application.
@@testtestsson4927 Sure, those options are there but it's not just these technical challenges. Testing is more complex, with many more permutations. Dealing with a customer problem is more complicated. Which distro are you running, what desktop env ... etc. It's just a hugely difficult and complex platform to support as a small commercial developer.
Soon we will have a society where everyone will be required to talk to each in baby talk by law. When a deadline needs to be meet and a department is falling behind, the meeting will go something like this: "Can you little angles please try to get the product finished in time? Pwueesee? You're all perfect responsible geniuses. It's not your fault the projects falling behind. We hired a team of HR specialists to find who ever is causing the problem. You all can have a 3 day weekend so you don't feel responsible or guilty. Remember you're all angles and prodigies." A few generations of that and society will catastrophically fail and humanity will plunge back into the dark ages. :)
Tyler Zambori Are you actually that emotionally unstable and sensetive that you'd sue a man over some harsh words? Grow the fuck up and grow a pair while you're at it, fucking hell people like you is what's wrong with this world, grown men with the emotional stability and "skin" of a kindergartner, I guess you are the result of "poor" overprotective parrenting popular in the 21 century where everyone is a special little snowflake, well welcome to life it fucking sucks but deal with it, furthermore if people do not like working with Linus that's their problem, as he pointed out, there's other open source projects out there, they can choose who to work with freely. I think ***** summed it up quite well there, society as a whole is getting too sensetive to everything. Gonna try and sue me now for being harsh to you on the internet :D
Now you're just making things up to defend your pathetic stance on the initial subject while mixing in contrived buzzwords, which all further manifests your weak-mindedness. Have you ever considered that suing an open-source software organization over some flame post in a VCS commit message is absurd? Have you looked into the human and environmental damage large micro processor manufactures get away with? If there's a reason to sue it's on something of that scale.
If Ubuntu listened to him they could be on MANY more personal machines. I took three random laptops from big retail stores and Ubuntu had graphic driver incompatibilities with ALL three. But, it looks like Ubuntu is retreating from being a desktop-oriented product anyway...
I tried Debian recently. Live cd didn’t boot, then I installed it using text installer and installed Demian didn’t boot either... So I installed Mint and it works great!
That feeling when you love computers and you listen to tech people talk about stuff you have no idea about but for some reason you still spend an hour plus listening to them and pretend you understand. Damn! I feel so dumb right now!!!! I gotta study computer science! Hopefully these kinds of discussions will make more sense in about 4-5 years time.
Respect should be earned. I agree. But no one deserves _disrespect_ . At least he could have said something like "sorry, this is absolutely wrong, and does not meet our standards" in a review. In doing so, he won't be respectful towards that person. At the same time, he won't be disrespectful as well.
I also agree with linus take on respect in his example. His work speaks for itself and does not need faux respect. Is he over the top and rude sometimes. Yeah. He admits it and so what. His genuineness is such a breath of fresh air EDIT: Thinking about this a bit more too. The chap who basically said words to the effect of 'hey your heading up something big here shouldn't you act like a bit less of a child'. Erm yes and no.... No because as far as commentating on the project he started and still coordinates he can say whatever the hell he wants. And yes in the sense that we all deserve to be treated on a personal level with respect. But also he's not talking to children. I really think he has little to apologise for. I mean at the end of the day he is running something that people input to voluntarily. If you don't like it, don't join in. If he were a manager or ceo and he spoke like that about his employees he should get some counselling. But the relationship is different.
You know, to invite Linus as a guest speaker, and then continually attack him with belligerent questions shows a COMPLETE LACK OF RESPECT for the DebConf community. He is a guest at your event, learn some manners.
alexis uceda jara I posted my comment in English, meaning I speak English. I recognize the word "kernel" so I'm assuming it's something about the how he made the Linux kernel, but remember that Linux is defined by its kernel. A "Linux operating system" is simply an operating system that is built on the Linux kernel.
alexis uceda jara No. Android is Linux and runs no GNU software. GNU is just something that comes with a lot of Linux distros but it isn't inherently part of Linux. Google Translator's thing is pretty terrible, so if I misinterpret anything you say, that's why.
In the first 10 minutes Linus talks about the pains related to cross-distribution binaries. Has anything changed? I face this problem in my OSS project.
@@izmaelverhage That's what I'm planning to use as generic application packaging. I will make packages for distros that I use enough to consider it worth it, but if a distro wants to provide my application from their official repos, they can do the packaging themselves. I'll probably have a source tarball, an appimage, .deb and .rpm packages, but if you're not quite as willing to go the extra effort, just provide the source tarball and an AppImage - if your application manages to gain success and userbase, the distro maintainers will do the rest.
on one hand I think it is ideal to approach technical disagreement with respect. on another, I think it is important to have thick skin, respectfully stand up, and just be professional and not work with the person when the opportunity presents itself.
i might have missed something, but especially when addressing a person such as Linus, i would probably say, thank you for taking my question after saying my name.
I personally think respect should be the default until someone loses it. Then by all means, disrespect them harshly. Be nice to strangers until they give you a reason to be an asshole. Or do what you want. I don't care that much. If someone outright disrespects me then that's just a helpful indicator that I shouldn't affiliate with them. So... there's always another way to deal with it. I like Linus, even if he can be rude. The man's passionate and I find that more important than how he "comes across". Thanks for Linux.
Eehh, what? @Taiho667 * Linus uses derogatory insults in disagreements. * Guy criticizes Linus for it. * Linus listen but ultimately disagrees. * Guy comes back with an honest question, showing no hard feelings, aggression or passive-aggression towards Linus' disagreement. * Linus answers the question sincerely without any hard feelings of the critique. It's literally how it's supposed to be. How can you be offended when Linus literally invited "controversial" questions/comments, and both parties played through the engagement diplomatically?
23:12 -- setting the time zone -- you mean a systemwide time zone setting? Why should there even be such a thing? Each process can have its own time zone, and that’s how it should be. Users can log into a single machine from any place in the world, so the location of the machine is not what’s important. Interestingly, systemd helps with this. Text-based system logs have traditionally had timestamps based on a local systemwide timezone. But the systemd journal replaces that with UTC timestamps. The “journalctl” command shows the times translated to your local time zone.
Each process can indeed have it's own time zone, if that's how you want. I don't see it as reason for _not having_ a system-wide time zone setting, as user can still set his own timezone and you can set individual timezone for any process you launch. If you don't want/need system-wide timezone, just set it to UTC and leave it be - it's not like it's getting in the way, so I'm not sure what you're issue is, and honestly: if you can't see a single reason why anyone would want a system that's set to specific timezone by default, you need to grow out of the _"it's how I want things to be so nobody else should have things differently"_ mindset. Luckily Linux has never had such mindset, which is why you can have your way with your system - and yet it has a default timezone setting somewhere. If you've written over the configuration file, or removed it, it's hardcoded in the kernel and most likely it's set to UTC. And for the record: This laptop I'm using. Tell me one good reason why *I* shouldn't have it set up according to Finnish timezone? And how would it benefit the speculated remote users if I had not set it to the timezone I actually live in? To put it short: That was a really stupid remark and didn't deserve a reply this long.
Hearing Linus complain about software packaging and ABI breakages now, in a world where Flatpak (and Snap, to an extent) has made shipping Linux software a breeze, is simply prophetic.
@@coshvjicujmlqef6047 yeah sure why just run linux applications when you also can run windows applications? why even run linux when you can just run windows? also wine always works, right? xD
The way I see it is you treat people with fairness and kindness but respect is something greater. You wouldn't hand the kid that mows your lawn a 10 dollar tip just cause he would have to do a fantastic job to earn those 10 extra bucks.
Well considering that the steam runtime is running a ancient version of gtk and that some distributions can easily run steam games natively even though they're technically unsupportive means Linus is right Valve single handedly standardized the entire linux desktop range as they've essentially released the first massively successful cross-platform universal package manager. If valve could ever get a second wave of steam machines off the ground it could be epic
And lo and behold, Steam Deck is here and crushing the PC gaming market. With tons of games now playable on Linux. All thanks to Valve effort of believing in Linux and standardized things around it so regular end users don't have to deal with tinkering stuff.
Question, why can applications not be built to not rely on so many dependencies and just hard code in the requirements, why are we leaving so many steps from one system to another.
A few of these Debian people come across as kind of cultish... yeah, Linus is somewhat abrasive but parts of this video made me acutely uncomfortable, lol. I have dabbled in OSS for years, and have found some of the culture takes itself way too seriously. Linus is obviously very confident in his abilities (yeah, probably some arrogance there) but I feel like he is just being pragmatic in identifying what's good about Linux distros versus what's lacking. I don't find it surprising that one of the primary figures in the OSS world isn't completely enamored with the developmental results of a bunch of off-shoot branches.
This year, 2021, and looking at the video, somehow illuminates one big change: what about Rust? Cross-platform apps, easy installation, ever-converging app stores; Win-Android compatibility with Windows 11. I see some kind of convergence here, and a path towards forgetting at least some of the nitty-gritty of application installation pain.
Well, it is good when compared to the 19th century or something like that. Although, of course, we coul'dve done waaay better. Especially in regards to big tech monopolizing politics and billionaires squeesing dollars from vulnerable people
Can someone educate me as to why having users "compile from source" in every distribution such a hard problem? I often install a program in Windows by downloading an installer and running it - or pressing a button that automates the download and installation. Why can't "compile from source" be something that the installer does? So the user only needs to be technical enough to press a mouse button. What am I missing?
missing dependencies. requiring dependencies that are are older than what the package manager uses. requiring dependencies that are newer than what the package manger uses. and the package manager can't use two versions of a library since it doesn't know which version each piece of software needs.
hahaahah linus my hero. as a kid everybody wanted to be superman... astronaut... jet fighter pilot.... linus was my hero, still is. the way he speaks and thinks will go down in history. like if you watch this dude's speeches in 4018 fsck debian, too difficult to install.... maybe it was microcare....
![Линус Торвальдс про Linux на десктопе [на русском] [debconf14]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/8BNFACoLe_c/mqdefault.jpg)
"I didn't really read the guidelines."
- the creator of Linux and Git
I love this guy. He's brutally honest and what makes him special is how practical he is. It's refreshing to see someone who is technical but sees the system from an average user's perspective.
Also jeez, these people need to stop arguing with Torvalds about him insulting people. This is about the Linux kernel and it's distributions, not problems with Torvalds.
Linux kernel not all Linux .
@@user-ezxiao linux is the kernel
You obviously never saw Terry A. Davis.
Linux OS for the sake of Linux does not make sense... Worst thing is that late version of Ubuntu are broken in new ways.
He said "I'm on record as saying that I think valve will save the Linux desktop"
And that's exactly what seems to be happening. Kinda crazy.
Interesting. I still have no idea what is Valve
It was said at 10:48, you might want to go back to 09:23 for a bit more context.
@@cryp0g00n4 Steam. Gaming.
Outside of the Steamdeck, this still hasn't materialized 8 years after this talk. I'm not holding my breath.
...Actually, Microsoft may be the ones that bring Linux (the kernel) to the desktop by way of merging it with Windows.
@@tomcooper9061 Exactly. Which is a superb plot twist on many many levels
"If it's a bug people rely on - it's not a bug, it's a feature."
What an awesome man
maintaining legacy code is _not fun_
yes but it is necessary. We have shit from the 1970s that works REALLY well with today's stuff and that is amazing. The extent of hardware it all works on is well worth it. I can jump on a Pentium PRO box vs a Core i7 box and run VERY similar software albeit at different speeds, but it not only works, but works well together. The result of your hard work maintaining legacy code cuts down on e-waste drastically. I mean drastically. Legacy is important. @@MamboBean343
Fork it. Move on. Legacy actual bug support is silly on so many levels. People shouldn't be developing for loophole flaws in the first place, not for stability nor sound functional foundations to build off of. It's legitimately crazy if your goal is making the best OS platform you can. Linux isn't Windows on either side of the spectrum (legacy vs. the socially engineered); it's its own spectrum.
To clarify, yes, don't break user space functionality, absolutely, but give them the opportunity to move forward in a sound way with relevant warnings upfront, not automatic implementation with only an afterthought. It's proactive programming for a better system potential as a whole vs. complacency.
Well put. If a loophole can be closed without sacrificing something, it should be done. Documentation is the most important thing above anything else. That way whomever comes after can pick up either where you left off or where you didn't want to go and go where you didn't have the energy while keeping your philosophy in mind. @@WR3ND
"Respect is something that is earned not given". A quality of a real and honest person.
more respect to linus for defending his thoughts so clearly and Single Handed
I've seen some of these questions as clips... didn't realise they were at a debian conference... makes the laughter make much more sense.
i love him being real rather than 'commercialized' fakes/respect
yeah yeah until he bends the knee with politicians claiming "social justice" AKA fascism
@@neuemage Thats his ultra-leftist daughter I guess
Its so refreshing, im so tired of robot PR men
@erik masterchef fascism is not exclusive to a political bent
that got my respect
"I dislike black and white people" - Linus Torvalds, 2014.
he's into asian😂
Grey people all the way!
@@zyansheep Yellow, like neutral emojis
they had us in the first half, not gonna lie
NBC coverage: "Linus admitted "I dislike black (...) people"
This Q & A session highlights one of the things I absolutely *admire* about Linus: He is just so goddam practical! Whenever I get the temptation to ignore the actual real world, as it *actually* is, I just need to watch a talk from Linus to get my head straight again. It's not an antithesis to idealism, but when you marry the two you get pragmatism, which at the end of the day tends to produce the best results, methinks.
Tyler Zambori yup, that's the real world
He's not practical; he's dogmatic. His adherence to his expressed principles appears to provide more in terms of moral satisfaction than actual utility to the kernel. His fervor about the matter shows that he does not have data by which to demonstrate the utility of his position.
I like your funny words magic man
From this Q&A, I got that Linus really cares about the users and isn't one of those idiots that thinks having to deal with bugs and difficult installations builds "character"
18:39 :
"Good evening... so, systemd"
"Wow"
Made my day xDD
linus torvalds created the kernel, but deep in his heart, he fights for the Users. just like kevin flynn
And he's gotten 2415 times smarter since then.
bruh
This guy is far from the abrasive/abusive character he's been built up as.
He just takes his passion seriously and isn't willing to compromise on the things he finds important.
Some of his quotations may seem abusive and arrogant on paper, but when you hear his delivery and the way he speaks, he doesn't appear like that at all, but rather comes off as a down-to-earth person with a sense of humour.
He actually looks relatively meek and humble.
I've seen people with accomplishments and stations far lesser and lower than his, with an incomparably more inflated sense of ego, and a much more difficult and toxic personality.
Linus's insults are far milder than the average level of insults in other professions: I just get the feeling the software development and IT community isn't used to anything outside of completely dry, religiously civil and sterile discourse with anodyne humour.
Well said.
Linus doesn't believe in office politics. Though I understand since being an idiot when submitting code wastes his time.
I don’t have an issue with most of his behavior but some of it is unprofessional. Whether or not that is an issue is a different story, but there’s no question that cursing and personal attacks on people are unprofessional, no matter how mild.
He apologized in 2018.
he said someone should be retroactively aborted and he's surprised they couldn't find their mother's tit. that's blatantly being an asshole - whether or not you tolerate it is up to you
People need to realize that Linus is not a Systems Engineer nor a UNIX engineer. He writes kernel code. People who do this for a living want a machine configured for them.
he actually said that he is a systems programmer lol
Personally, I like Torvalds' invective. I find it imaginative and interesting, and then people move on.
Or they don't move on and get stuck on the words rather than the technical argument.
That's true, and pretty sad.
"Respect is something that is earned, Respect is not something to just be given"...
"That" is why Linus Torvalds is a success in his field, and is why these people are standing in line to ask him a question, and not the other way around...
Good manners and respect are two different things. Linus confounds the two.
@@meathead919 Contrary to most other people he is HONEST. What matters are the facts, not the words. It's his right to have a controversial sense of humor. Look at what Linus did throughout his life, and what most of those politically correct people do! A world with more people like Linus and less political correctness (because kids take offense) would most likely be far better!
I fell on this video while pulling my hair out trying to make something work on linux and it felt like every issue i have ever had with linux writ large. It is beautiful.
he destroyed debian on their on conference
Fedora
But the really important point he said it: he doesn't really care.
Fedora for God sake
@Karman: When? Is there a video of that? I'm eager to see more popcorn-worth talks like this.
@Agnish Roy mint
Best Coca-Cola advert.
Not so. I didn't notice until you pointed that out.
Literaly wants me drink Coca-Cola
=)
😀
Coke isn't open source formula
Lol. As a German I'm feeling exhausted by people criticizing Linus for his behaviour. It's a v different culture than English speaking ones like UK, US. For us truth is respect. Phony politeness without meaning it- well, phony. Off putting. Creating distrust even at times. Critism helps grow. Blunt critism when talking to a person you have no other relation to except through tec is fine. It's not like Linus is walking down the street insulting random people. He gives feedback, unmasked and sometimes unasked. German, Polish, Russian, French , Italian. .... even Chinese- none would ever have a problem with this. Maybe what's the problem is a lack of understanding of different cultures and mindsets coming from different angles. And for that I can only encourage traveling and living in non English speaking countries for those with English as their first language. I'm certain that would massively help understand.
As an American who loves German Bluntness, I hope these elderberry-smelling, bureaucratic, blowhards choke on an egg.
What are you talking about? Germany is a totally pussified country by now, destroyed by political correctness. You can't even say what you think without going to jail. You even censored your own anthem not to offend foreigners. Maybe YOU are honest and care about truth, your country certainly doesn't.
@@lucioinnocenzo2328 OMG the only pussy here is you, crying about an obscure steal of free speech, spoken out freely by and probably without reflecting enough on yourself before. Go follow your alt-right bullshit but PLEASE don't give up upon growing up, because being empathic and nice IS NOT a weakness, it is a complete natural skill you should adopt while growing adult. There is no choice between being nice and being honest and I guess and hope that because of your rational thinking (that you are probably are so proud of) you will sooner or later get this point. :)
If they dont like it they are free to buy a windows pc and suffer the malware diseases lol
Gecko Lia 2o
One of my favorite talks from Linus. Super light hearted and fun.
This man might not be the most polite out there. But the kind of articles people put up straight up smearing what kind of man he is is what made me realise, something is really fucked up about our drive for inclusiveness. It is being driven by demonizing people instead of talking to them with empathy, and these are the people who are trying to preach empathy
You hit it right on the spot. It really makes me wonder what would happen in a truly equalized and self sufficient world.
He has humility, humor, and honesty. Each of those is worth more than 'polite' by my standard. Being abrasive buffers you from insufferable overly-sensitive fools that care about such things more than actual productivity. P.C. should stand for personal computer, not "politically correct"-- that's a language of authoritative control.
10:50 is where Linus predicted the future. What a visionary, no doubt he leads the Linux kernel development.
it builds with the whole binaries 🙈😁 that is the part I'd like. It's like another distro running in the system.
I heard this and then realized this video is from 8 years ago. Holy cow.
yes, he actually does, how did you know :O ???
Linus is so true on ABI compatibility for user apps. The Win32 API is basically stable since 1995, that like roughly 20 years... Yeah, start that simple C program from 1995, thats ok, but how about that Loki games from the 2000s?
Yeah, I bought a copy of ACDSee back when I was running Win98. It still works on Win 10.
Torvalds really has good arguments, also I like arguments, arguments reflect your deductions and are hyphotesis about your conclusion.
WHY DID I ENJOY THIS SO MUCH???
I've always had reservations about Linux based OS, mainly because of what I considered over-hyped security and eccentric interface controls. I was overly pleased to hear that Linus himself has had issues with specifically the security wing of development. The man really is amazing. He talks bluntly and has no fear of what he says. It's not about being politically correct, it about saying whats downright true. Even better is to see a few butthurt in the crowd, those that actually took offense to what he said.
For real. What a bunch of fucking babies.
Probably watched it 10 times. I just love listening to Linus Torvalds and how he talks about technology it's just so pragmatic
Linus is very honest with himself regardless of rudeness or whatever you name it :)
“Respect is earned, not given.” Love this explanation from Linus.
Pretty much, you are given respect when you earn it. You can tell how many people are soft and won’t handle failure well. I agree with Linus and it’s rewarding 2 fold. When people recognize your hard work and efforts, they will support you and motivate you to succeed. When you get the recognition from your hard work, you yourself will feel appreciated and will strive to do better. Just imagine if everyone got a raise, or if everyone was promoted, regardless if someone works or is lazy. This would defeat the purpose of healthy comptetition.
Glad to see Linus upset the soy mindsets in Portalnd during this conference.
I love this guy!!! Don't break user experience
As user experience remains broken because we have a rule against change....
@@Stierguy1 All the code must move at the same time to prevent bugs.
He is awsome! Answering the Q about versions he explained everything and avoided mentioning any particular number until the end of last sentence.
"if it's a bug people rely on then it's a feature" is one of the best software dev takes ive seen in a long time. (interestingly most of the good ones I've found come from Linus)
Linus is right in the packaging topic. While now there are working projects to fix the mullti distro deployment issue, it will take many years to get accepted and used as a main source of application instalation method.
The other problem I see is the per distro packaging itself and how packages are splitted in minor minor ones. When you look at some packages, they have a main package, a config file package, a plugins or optional package, development (or debug) package, etc, etc. That splitting make sometimes installing packages, specially for development a pain. They should learn from Android, that when a user want an app, it should install the whole app, and not only the binaries.
And until Linux distributions don't addressed that, imo there will have no desktop future.
systemd question 18:40
Fucking thank you ! Exactly what I was looking for !
thanks
What's systemd? Probably I should Google
@@sinharakshit rtfm
Outstanding presentation!
Proves, beyond a doubt, that open source is the way to go!
I love his zero fucks approach to insulting people.
This is so good
I resonate with his ideologies i am getting all warm and fuzzie.
I like to run a minimal desktop and have only what i need
"Respect shouldn't be given, respect should be earned" ! L. Torvald is a real modern viking ! ^^
great comeback that was, indeed.
My standpoint too. Merit is what made our society great.
Common decency and proffessionalism are not the same thing as respect (I feel most people are arguing semantics in disguise here). While all those things are valuable, they are not neccessities, one might place the virtue of truth above them and who's to say this is wrong? It is a matter of taste. I think people just get sour when a person they've revered has disappointed them. You might agree that false altruism may be considered by some to be a worse trait than brutal honesty.
If people don't respect Debian, they don't know what Linux is and what it's capabilities for liberated computing are. Just saying.
@Yahmez Just so. Linus is just giving his practical use opinion and some tough love, though I'd argue that he does seem a little bit like a shark lost in the woods here, to be honest.
09:00 - What does it mean to "break user space"? Causing a user application to crash?
+BenRangel yes, exactly. Making changes on the kernel that causes an application to stop working as expected (like crashing or any other kind of unexpected behaviour) is unnaceptable.
anything that changes the behavior of userspace applications pretty much. it doesnt even have to crash, for example if you change an abi, it can just result in the app passing garbage arguments to a syscall, which usually doesnt crash.
Want respect? Earn it. That's Linus' taste.
The problem with linux is that a lot of the end user software just isnt very good. Hes also completely right about the multiple distribution thing, as a developer why the hell do i have to target distributions with their own pet packaging requirements rather than just “linux”. End users dont care but they put the responsibility onto me and i then have to worry about quirks of a particular distribution rather than my application.
I've given up supporting linux for this very reason.
It's not Free for me to support Linux, it costs a lot more than other OSes in reality.
@@Prod-23 what about snap and flatpak?
@@testtestsson4927 Sure, those options are there but it's not just these technical challenges.
Testing is more complex, with many more permutations. Dealing with a customer problem is more complicated. Which distro are you running, what desktop env ... etc.
It's just a hugely difficult and complex platform to support as a small commercial developer.
I like the way he handled sensitive pony tail guy about respect and crass language.
Tyler Zambori summary for anyone who does not want to read this guys wall of text: "Boo Hoo, why can't everyone be nice to each other"
Soon we will have a society where everyone will be required to talk to each in baby talk by law. When a deadline needs to be meet and a department is falling behind, the meeting will go something like this: "Can you little angles please try to get the product finished in time? Pwueesee? You're all perfect responsible geniuses. It's not your fault the projects falling behind. We hired a team of HR specialists to find who ever is causing the problem. You all can have a 3 day weekend so you don't feel responsible or guilty. Remember you're all angles and prodigies."
A few generations of that and society will catastrophically fail and humanity will plunge back into the dark ages. :)
Tyler Zambori Are you actually that emotionally unstable and sensetive that you'd sue a man over some harsh words? Grow the fuck up and grow a pair while you're at it, fucking hell people like you is what's wrong with this world, grown men with the emotional stability and "skin" of a kindergartner, I guess you are the result of "poor" overprotective parrenting popular in the 21 century where everyone is a special little snowflake, well welcome to life it fucking sucks but deal with it, furthermore if people do not like working with Linus that's their problem, as he pointed out, there's other open source projects out there, they can choose who to work with freely.
I think ***** summed it up quite well there, society as a whole is getting too sensetive to everything.
Gonna try and sue me now for being harsh to you on the internet :D
You mad yet? I sense rage and frustration. Tisk Tisk. Your anger is satisfying.
Now you're just making things up to defend your pathetic stance on the initial subject while mixing in contrived buzzwords, which all further manifests your weak-mindedness. Have you ever considered that suing an open-source software organization over some flame post in a VCS commit message is absurd? Have you looked into the human and environmental damage large micro processor manufactures get away with? If there's a reason to sue it's on something of that scale.
This guy is a legend
If Ubuntu listened to him they could be on MANY more personal machines. I took three random laptops from big retail stores and Ubuntu had graphic driver incompatibilities with ALL three.
But, it looks like Ubuntu is retreating from being a desktop-oriented product anyway...
Patrick EH
Fedora is better...
@@hanro50 i use Arch, btw
I tried Debian recently. Live cd didn’t boot, then I installed it using text installer and installed Demian didn’t boot either... So I installed Mint and it works great!
Geez did he eat Stallman?
lmao XD
ET 302?!?
he didnt say the word GNU once in this session, I dont think so
@@chrissxMedia He actually did 1:05
@@chrissxMedia guess what the G in Glibc stands for?
wow the GPL2 vs 3 and the FSF convo was truly enlightening, and i agree the EFF is way better.
Big respect Torvalds !!
Thanks so much for sharing the content, guys.
Linus rocks as always
17:29 The punchline after the response is priceless.
Linus have some controversial opinions and can sometimes come off as rude. But I respect him and appreciate his honesty.
That feeling when you love computers and you listen to tech people talk about stuff you have no idea about but for some reason you still spend an hour plus listening to them and pretend you understand. Damn! I feel so dumb right now!!!! I gotta study computer science! Hopefully these kinds of discussions will make more sense in about 4-5 years time.
omg I can totally relate.
Well?
its been 4 years man whats going now?
hey its been 7 years, whats up now?
Respect should be earned. I agree. But no one deserves _disrespect_ . At least he could have said something like "sorry, this is absolutely wrong, and does not meet our standards" in a review. In doing so, he won't be respectful towards that person. At the same time, he won't be disrespectful as well.
agreed, respect to the gentleman at 14:44 for making that stand.
I also agree with linus take on respect in his example. His work speaks for itself and does not need faux respect. Is he over the top and rude sometimes. Yeah. He admits it and so what. His genuineness is such a breath of fresh air
EDIT: Thinking about this a bit more too. The chap who basically said words to the effect of 'hey your heading up something big here shouldn't you act like a bit less of a child'. Erm yes and no.... No because as far as commentating on the project he started and still coordinates he can say whatever the hell he wants. And yes in the sense that we all deserve to be treated on a personal level with respect. But also he's not talking to children. I really think he has little to apologise for. I mean at the end of the day he is running something that people input to voluntarily. If you don't like it, don't join in.
If he were a manager or ceo and he spoke like that about his employees he should get some counselling. But the relationship is different.
What does he mean by 'Don't break user space?'
+Julian Pereira in simple words: making breaking changes to api that directly relate to applications.
I see. thanks for that.
@@hassanhashemi6478 Great thanks. I guess all applications must be updated when you update API on the kernel.
You know, to invite Linus as a guest speaker, and then continually attack him with belligerent questions shows a COMPLETE LACK OF RESPECT for the DebConf community. He is a guest at your event, learn some manners.
+typedeaf Yeah, and it's strange that anyone who is a fan of Linux could not have any respect for the guy who made it.
+ Amelia Hartman el ni hizo linux,, solo creo el kernel
alexis uceda jara I posted my comment in English, meaning I speak English. I recognize the word "kernel" so I'm assuming it's something about the how he made the Linux kernel, but remember that Linux is defined by its kernel. A "Linux operating system" is simply an operating system that is built on the Linux kernel.
seria mejor llamarlo GNU/LINUX para darle crédito a Richard Stallman
alexis uceda jara No. Android is Linux and runs no GNU software. GNU is just something that comes with a lot of Linux distros but it isn't inherently part of Linux. Google Translator's thing is pretty terrible, so if I misinterpret anything you say, that's why.
In the first 10 minutes Linus talks about the pains related to cross-distribution binaries. Has anything changed? I face this problem in my OSS project.
You should see if appimage fits your case man. Linus himself has said good things on it.
@@male1ism Many thanks, will check that out.
@@izmaelverhage That's what I'm planning to use as generic application packaging. I will make packages for distros that I use enough to consider it worth it, but if a distro wants to provide my application from their official repos, they can do the packaging themselves. I'll probably have a source tarball, an appimage, .deb and .rpm packages, but if you're not quite as willing to go the extra effort, just provide the source tarball and an AppImage - if your application manages to gain success and userbase, the distro maintainers will do the rest.
Try installing it for use with multiple BTRFS volumes.
on one hand I think it is ideal to approach technical disagreement with respect.
on another, I think it is important to have thick skin, respectfully stand up, and just be professional and not work with the person when the opportunity presents itself.
but yeah, Linus is an asshole lol
"Respected should be Earned" - Truth!!!
i might have missed something, but especially when addressing a person such as Linus, i would probably say, thank you for taking my question after saying my name.
No, that is not useful. It is just a waste of time.
When people do that there is less time for questions.
Guys crushing hard on linus while chatting like a teenage girls, huge waste of time.
anyone knows what he means by fsf... ? (not sure about the word) when he's talking about GPL2 and 3 (at 49:49).
he means Free Software Foundation.
GPL are General Public Licenses released by the Free Software Foundation
Thanks!
I personally think respect should be the default until someone loses it. Then by all means, disrespect them harshly. Be nice to strangers until they give you a reason to be an asshole.
Or do what you want. I don't care that much. If someone outright disrespects me then that's just a helpful indicator that I shouldn't affiliate with them. So... there's always another way to deal with it. I like Linus, even if he can be rude. The man's passionate and I find that more important than how he "comes across". Thanks for Linux.
You Rock Linus! Thanks for making GNU/Linux oh so many years ago.
The guy that gets up to call him childish and then later tries to joke around with him about some backwards compatibility thing..
such a toolbag. I wish our Lord and Savior Harambe would have taken him for a swim.
@Taiho667 typical
Eehh, what? @Taiho667
* Linus uses derogatory insults in disagreements.
* Guy criticizes Linus for it.
* Linus listen but ultimately disagrees.
* Guy comes back with an honest question, showing no hard feelings, aggression or passive-aggression towards Linus' disagreement.
* Linus answers the question sincerely without any hard feelings of the critique.
It's literally how it's supposed to be. How can you be offended when Linus literally invited "controversial" questions/comments, and both parties played through the engagement diplomatically?
Mutual respect is a thing, and it should be that way.
@@audiencebigg6302 As stated, respect must be earned not demanded.
23:12 -- setting the time zone -- you mean a systemwide time zone setting? Why should there even be such a thing? Each process can have its own time zone, and that’s how it should be. Users can log into a single machine from any place in the world, so the location of the machine is not what’s important.
Interestingly, systemd helps with this. Text-based system logs have traditionally had timestamps based on a local systemwide timezone. But the systemd journal replaces that with UTC timestamps. The “journalctl” command shows the times translated to your local time zone.
Each process can indeed have it's own time zone, if that's how you want. I don't see it as reason for _not having_ a system-wide time zone setting, as user can still set his own timezone and you can set individual timezone for any process you launch. If you don't want/need system-wide timezone, just set it to UTC and leave it be - it's not like it's getting in the way, so I'm not sure what you're issue is, and honestly: if you can't see a single reason why anyone would want a system that's set to specific timezone by default, you need to grow out of the _"it's how I want things to be so nobody else should have things differently"_ mindset.
Luckily Linux has never had such mindset, which is why you can have your way with your system - and yet it has a default timezone setting somewhere. If you've written over the configuration file, or removed it, it's hardcoded in the kernel and most likely it's set to UTC.
And for the record: This laptop I'm using. Tell me one good reason why *I* shouldn't have it set up according to Finnish timezone? And how would it benefit the speculated remote users if I had not set it to the timezone I actually live in?
To put it short: That was a really stupid remark and didn't deserve a reply this long.
Enjoyed it a lot! Thank you everyone involved in this specially Mr. Torvalds. active debate and challenge is always good :)
Hearing Linus complain about software packaging and ABI breakages now, in a world where Flatpak (and Snap, to an extent) has made shipping Linux software a breeze, is simply prophetic.
flatpak is a crap
I would like to see why you want flatpak for ABI stability when you just run windows applications with wine
@@coshvjicujmlqef6047 yeah sure why just run linux applications when you also can run windows applications?
why even run linux when you can just run windows?
also wine always works, right? xD
I’m reminded of what my mentor, a CEO in a huge financial firm, said to me during our last session. Would you rather be liked, or respected?
The way I see it is you treat people with fairness and kindness but respect is something greater. You wouldn't hand the kid that mows your lawn a 10 dollar tip just cause he would have to do a fantastic job to earn those 10 extra bucks.
What was that comment about obscure language about?
I love mr Linus. He is an awesome guy. Totally
58:14 - I think I'm one of the 10 running subsurface on Arch...
Love the Subsurface project.
I use arch btw
Well considering that the steam runtime is running a ancient version of gtk and that some distributions can easily run steam games natively even though they're technically unsupportive means Linus is right
Valve single handedly standardized the entire linux desktop range as they've essentially released the first massively successful cross-platform universal package manager.
If valve could ever get a second wave of steam machines off the ground it could be epic
Good news! (Atleast for now)
Note: i know this comment is really old just wanted to say
@@jack8407 what up?
@@hanro50 Steam Deck is up.
And lo and behold, Steam Deck is here and crushing the PC gaming market. With tons of games now playable on Linux.
All thanks to Valve effort of believing in Linux and standardized things around it so regular end users don't have to deal with tinkering stuff.
Linus's quote on Valve saving Linux desktop was spot on. How did he know that back in 2014?
27:50 - I couldn't agree more. Each of us can/should work on themselves...
ah 2014, 2015 the golden era! Now, they should do a Re-Match 2-hour special, Q & A Post-ubunutu, ArchLinux era Q&A
Question, why can applications not be built to not rely on so many dependencies and just hard code in the requirements, why are we leaving so many steps from one system to another.
A few of these Debian people come across as kind of cultish... yeah, Linus is somewhat abrasive but parts of this video made me acutely uncomfortable, lol. I have dabbled in OSS for years, and have found some of the culture takes itself way too seriously. Linus is obviously very confident in his abilities (yeah, probably some arrogance there) but I feel like he is just being pragmatic in identifying what's good about Linux distros versus what's lacking. I don't find it surprising that one of the primary figures in the OSS world isn't completely enamored with the developmental results of a bunch of off-shoot branches.
what distros do linus' children use?
His daughter used OpenSUSE at one point.
This year, 2021, and looking at the video, somehow illuminates one big change: what about Rust? Cross-platform apps, easy installation, ever-converging app stores; Win-Android compatibility with Windows 11. I see some kind of convergence here, and a path towards forgetting at least some of the nitty-gritty of application installation pain.
Linus Torvalds, 2014: "The world is mostly good."
The world: "Hold my beer."
Well, it is good when compared to the 19th century or something like that. Although, of course, we coul'dve done waaay better. Especially in regards to big tech monopolizing politics and billionaires squeesing dollars from vulnerable people
@@awesomebearaudiobooks and democracies that can be bought with advertising by billionaires which is the craziest to me honestly
well he certainly gained my respect, for what its worth.
So sad that in 2014 I was using SVN and can't put a candle to this. Using git from early on would have been great.
I don't know how to compile a commit. =(
FUCK POLITICAL CORRECTNESS ! ! !
GO LINUS ! ! !
Nice, watching this on a Chromebook right now!
Why are people in the conference crying about harsh language?
Just give them sudo privileges for the printer. Right?
Is that Hidéo Kojima sitting up front????
18:10 There is a neutral stance, neither respect nor dis-respect. It's not a boolean 0 or 1 only.
Still relevant today, Linus _is_ a visioner even if he refuses to approve so
Theres enough whine in this crowd to start a vineyard.
but.. wine doesnt make vineyards.. vineyards make wine..
@@sabercoy a whineyard
there's enough wine in this crowd to run a windows application
@@theshinywolf ok that's smart
@@theshinywolf Oh good
11:44 I can't believe people are really so fragile that they need such a warning...
if anyone gets "respect" then respect means nothing... so respect needs to be EARNED
Can someone educate me as to why having users "compile from source" in every distribution such a hard problem? I often install a program in Windows by downloading an installer and running it - or pressing a button that automates the download and installation. Why can't "compile from source" be something that the installer does? So the user only needs to be technical enough to press a mouse button. What am I missing?
missing dependencies. requiring dependencies that are are older than what the package manager uses. requiring dependencies that are newer than what the package manger uses. and the package manager can't use two versions of a library since it doesn't know which version each piece of software needs.
Linus: the worst thing is when people don't follow the guidelines.
His first response to the following person: Sorry, I didn't read the guidelines.
That's not software developer guidelines, but okay.
hahaahah linus my hero. as a kid everybody wanted to be superman... astronaut... jet fighter pilot....
linus was my hero, still is.
the way he speaks and thinks will go down in history.
like if you watch this dude's speeches in 4018
fsck debian, too difficult to install.... maybe it was microcare....
Linus you beautiful bastard!
I've never used Linux before. But after watching Revolution OS and rid. I'll give it a try.
any results?
This was a great watch :)