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this video irresponsibly argues for harvesting wild mice from the wild in a time of global mass-extinction. mice are not people, this is the lab-animal industry pivoting to deal with the fact that animal models barely ever work. translational medicine fails to translate in much higher than 90% of cases after passing animal trials. Animal research is utterly useless most of the time and anyone doing this work will not disagree with my statistic given it's usually actually higher than that in published research on the topic (I took a safe value so as not to inflate, erring on the side of caution, it is over 90% in any case).
You ever heard about US civil war re-enactments? I'm doing something similar right now, by accident because I'm copy-pasting something which I told someone else. Yes, it's slightly comedic Only If you take it seriously. Otherwise you'll probably believe me too much. Well, the decision-making behavior of such a court as, for example, Singapore's is ostensibly part of a continuum of recorded history (ie: similar to China). IT'S A GOVERNMENT WHICH HOSTS COURT HEARINGS; A HEARING IS NOT A TIME TO TRY TO LISTEN TO THE MESSAGES OF SPIRITS; A HEARING IS NOT A SEANCE during which spirits "are heard" giving the verdict: "NOT A[nother instance of a group of people claiming to be owning land a few hundred years from now, in like 1800ish maybe to 2023, under the name,] 'NEPAL'". Are you implying that The Carta Magna was a Ouija Board? The headline is informing us that the Japanese are basically "on strike until a religious extremist will inform them that he has begun to unite them". What is your response? Do I look like a scary racist Chinese dad now? DO I LOOK LIKE A SCARY RACIST CHINESE DAD NOW? ARE YOU SCARED YET? Do I care about the new rebelliousness which has [just now] been conceived [or born] in your soul? Can I be expected to care about it? If you're truly a mystic, are you verily able to predict, truly, that I care about it? Is that your "final prediction"? REMEMBER WHO SOLD YOU THAT ruclips.net/video/dVnOvDme7hE/видео.html
This is neat, that scientists are looking to diversify their models in this way. But really, I just want to say that all the mouse footage in this video is absolutely fantastic.
Also, as Bret Weinstein pointed out, lab mice are bred to have extremely long telomeres, so they are really good at dealing with cell damage, meaning we dont learn if a drug may harm our organs. It also causes them to have a much higher incidence of tumors, which may cause reasearchers to overestimate the carcinogenic effects of pathogens.
I know scientists like to have things in nice, standardized units but this seems like a no brainer to me mostly because we humans are... well, anything but standardized and sanitary.
They like those standardized units because it makes it easier to detect differences. The real value of field mice is in getting another reference point that makes it easier to then translate those differences to the real world. You still need those 2+ groups of lab mice to detect base-level differences.
Lab mice also have longer telomeres as well. Shout to Brett Weinstein. Most of the lab mice are bred here in Maine by Jackson Labs; more than 80% of all mouse publications that cite use of a specific strain indicate having used JL's JAX mice. (Edited, incorrectly stated that lab mice have shorter telomeres than wild mice, when they are in fact longer. It's not the size of your telomeres, however, it's how you use them)
Lab mice usually aren't kept in a sterile environment. They themselves have a microbiota, too. There are exceptions like gnotobiotic mice, which are completely sterile. It is true, however, that they are usually specific-pathogen-free and need to mount fewer immunological responses since their litter, food, and usually water are sterilized.
So as the mouse technician for a research lab, I can say that two other reasons for lab mice to be sterile of typical murine pathogens is to protect the people who handle them and prevent outbreaks between the colonies of different labs in a given animal facility. I get bit a couple times a year-if I wash my hands the most I have to worry about is some minor irritation, not yellow fever, hantavirus, herpes, etc. Additionally, inbred mice tend to be more docile and less jumpy than their wild counterparts, requiring considerably less stress, time, and bodily peril on the part of the technicians charged with their care. Not sure I’d want to be working with infected wild mice 😅
Yeah, so I guess they'd reserve wild mice for special occasions. Like maybe sift through candidate drugs with lab mice first, then wild, then chimps and apes, before finally testing it in humans
I was thinking about exactly that when he mentioned exposing the lab mice to diseases they would have encountered in the wild. The main reason mice are something to be avoided in the wild is because of the diseases they carry, so I wouldn't think scientists would want to be working so much with exposed mice. I guess that is why they came to the compromise of just diversifying the lab mouse gene pool so they can inherit those wild mouse attributes.
I worked two spring/summer trapping seasons in a lab that worked with wild mice when I was in college. In my second season I worked handling the mice. We would catch on average 100 mice a day split between 3-4 of us paid researchers. Luckily I was only bit twice and only once through the glove, we were always concerned about things like hantavirus. We had to hike through the woods in our mapped out grids carrying crates filled with mouse traps, making sure not to carry them near our face. To then process them and hike them back to release them were we caught them. It was rough and nerve racking, I could not have continued doing that job. The PI was starting to incorporate lab mice into our research when I left the job, so I only had the chance to work with the lab mice once but it was a dream compared to the wild ones lol. I don't recommend it, but seeing all the videos of the wild mice made me miss it a little bit.
@@bmr4566 I'd say in two areas: immune system training/exposure, but also in genetic diversity. (that's why scientists added two new variants to their mouse models repertoire: Collaborative-Cross, and Diversity-Outbred; each addresses one of the two differences)
I've heard that some researchers have started using lawyers as test subjects rather than mice. This approach has three advantages- 1. There are more lawyers than mice; 2. The scientists don't get emotionally attached to the lawyers the way they did with the mice; and 3. There are some things that a mouse just won't do. 😁
I keep pet rats. It's incredible how much research there is out there about their physical and mental health. I have however noticed that some of the lab rat results just don't always translate perfectly to my baby girls. And again it's because my rats have a lot more genetic diversity and live very different lives.
Probably also because your baby girls aren't socially isolated. In many studies, rats especially (but mice often as well) are singly houses from adolescence, and that makes a huge difference in behavior.
There is another huge issue that you're not mentioning. Because of how they've been bred, lab mice have telomeres that are way longer than field mice. Way, way longer. This enables cells in lab mice to divide many more times before they self-destruct, which means lab mice all die of cancer. It also means that lab mice have much more regenerative capacity than regular mice. Which means that drugs that kill a few cells are going to have less of a negative effect on lab mice than they would on field mice (or people) because other cells can just divide and replace them. This leads to drugs being considered safe when they aren't.
@@arielsalinger-kraft6197 - I believe it was Bret Weinstein's PhD thesis. He hypothesized that telomeres were a cancer prevention system, and that shorter lived animals would have shorter telomeres. Unfortunately, lab mice didn't conform, but field mice did.
Rats and mice are unsung heroes. They are incredibly adaptive, intelligent, and emotional creatures; and they survive despite our best attempts to eradicate them.
I own a pet mouse, it likes to be held, it does funny things when you tap its ears, it enjoys internet surfing, and loves sleeping near my computer. It's named Corsair ;)
The other way lab mice are not like us is that they have a comparatively impoverished environment. Would they respond differently if they had more stimulation and challenge in their lives?
Aging biologist here! This is fascinating, and could be super-important for aging biology because we think that some infections stick around _for life_ and may themselves be a part of the aging process, so studying totally sterile mice could be a bad idea. But also, there’s a case that humans are, in some ways, more like lab mice than wild mice-our surroundings are far more sterile than the wild, and we have vaccines and antibiotics which mean that, while we’re not subject to no disease, we’re subject to far less. It’ll be interesting to see how all this pans out, and which mice turn out to be most relevant for which studies…
I read your first exclamation and thought, "are you an aging biologist or a biologist who studies aging? Or both?" 😅 Silly joke, I know. But it's coming from another aging biologist (who's nearly middle-aged).
Remember my first experiment with mice, my tutor fainted when we were sacrifising the animals (in order to test morphologic changes in their liver and pancreas) and she was the one who told me "try to imagine them as a very sensitive reactants". Poor of her, she wanted to seem heartless but it backfire.
Great video! It highlights expansion of nuance in scientific research, for biology/human health. It rightfully doesn't say "past science was wrong" or that using lab mice is wrong. Using lab mice was not wrong (to help humans) & must continue, but we must consider more. The video DOES say that the "mouse model" used so-far must be expanded, to be a "wider mouse model" -- consisting of many phases of experiments all using mice -- initially on "Pure-bred Lab mice"; if the research demands it then next on "Collaborative-Cross mice"; if the research further requires it (e.g. in studies where immune function/status may have large impact) then to also include "Diversity-Outbred mice". Only after these phases of experiments show promise (of a candidate molecule/drug) do we consider more expensive (e.g. primate or human) trials. It should greatly improve efficacy of human trials, especially in areas of cancer & other research where the human/mammalian immune system has significant role. It's very important for non-experts to see that (in almost all cases), prior science/scientific understanding is not wrong, but "less effective" than a newer/novel understanding. In this video's example, our prior use of lab-mice worked very well (and should not be eliminated), & the new model (of using a multi-phased mice-model) should work better. The new method/model is not a replacement, but an enhancement. 👉 This is how most scientific methods/processes improve -- through enhancement rather than replacement. 👉 Example: Newton's Laws weren't replaced, but enhanced by General Relativity (it helps accuracy in high velocity/acceleration/gravity) In science we don't replace the whole thing (i.e., "throw out the baby with the bathwater") -- instead in science we enhance (i.e., "change the bathwater, knowing the baby is important")
And yet, ironically wild mice are the ones they're gonna use to figure out what's going on with our bodies. I sure hope at some point they figure out how to talk immune systems into ceasefire, even if I don't get to see it.
so, essentially testing 10,000 lab mice is the same as testing 1 mouse 10,000 times. like if we took Ed and tested a drug on 10,000 copies of him. and used those findings to get a medication to market could see so many ways that could go wrong. i've heard of selecting the wrong test subjects to avoid unwanted results. this taking it to a whole new level of unwanted error
That's why there are different models for studying each variable. You have to know what your animal model is good for and what its limitations are. You might for example start with a simple model to test if the drug even works in a living body. Then you work with a more representative model and confirm the results in multiple species.
Having kept both mice and rats as pets, I can safely say, with 100% certainty that the animal in the thumbnail is a Rattus norvegicus, aka brown rat, not a mouse😅
I don't know, my roommate has pet rats and the thumb nail looks like a field mouse to me. It doesn't look long enough to be a rat. (Unless they changed the thumbnail after your comment. )
There have allegedly been instances of people who have lived in an environment that was too "sterile"-ish being sickly all the time. Taken out of that environment and exposed to (GASP!) common germs and dirt, their immune systems grew stronger. I'm not sure if there was ever a "peer reviewed" study on it though. What little information I have was passed down to me through word of mouth.
There are actually a ton of rules on how the mice need to be treated and handled! My undergraduate research project involved mice, so I had to go through a 3 hour basic education course which included recognizing the body language which would indicate a mouse was in pain and needed pain killers - which we were required to give unless we had a darn good & committee approved reason not to (ie, had to have data showing how giving the mouse painkillers would screw with the experimental data). Animal research isn't ideal, but I felt a lot better about it after I learned how many protections were in place. It isn't the 1950s anymore. We're a lot more careful.
@@witchskee and some of them get adopted! Not very many, of course, but most of the Lab Animal Research facilities encourage empolyees to adopt retired lab animals if they want pets, since it lowers the risk of employees bringing in outside infections that could harm the lab population. So some of them even get a happily-ever-after!
@@Dee-jp7ek The irony of misspelling words in the comment section of the science video baffles me. Not being any guy. Just myself, thank you very much.
@@MontgomeryWenis Despite overlapping, those subjects/interests aren't dependant on the other to enjoy, plus it was a simple grammatical error. All you're doing is being a jerk and dissuading others from learning.
I tried to explain to a friend why research using animals was so vital, even though I hated the idea of animal suffering. I wish I'd had this video during that discussion.
NGL there are so many fields out there that could benefit from real world counterparts, from bacteria, to mice, to amphibians. Sterile environments are kinda bad when you get to the intricacies of an ecosystem. Just make labs with a 1/2 acre preserved wildlife area 👀 where specimens can be held in a mild control
What about knockout mice? They are a lot closer to us than other mice, cos they have had some of their own genes 'knocked out' and replaced with human dna?
Extremely pale individuals, inbred for generations upon generations to maintain specific uncommon traits and some misplaced idea of "purity..." Makes sense to cater to them, though, they've got the money!
Sushi you ate earlier in the day. By the way, I have difficulty communicating because I had a stroke in Broca’s area, the part of the brain that controls speech. 2/8/2021 but I lived again. (My wife helped me compose this.)
Something that might be worth considering: Mammalian immune cells have a different genome than each other and all of the other cells in the body. This is because during development, they randomly scramble part of their genomes. These millions of non-identical cells are then subjected to (at least) two rounds of selection according to their reactions to environmentally available antigens (I'm not going to speculate about the effect on diversity of immune cells of a sterile lab environment, because immune system details hurt my brain, but I'm pretty sure the lab mice are more homogenous than the wild; oh, crap now my brain hurts). So it's not only that immune cells use their genomes differently depending on their exposure to antigens, they actually have different genomes than each other and the rest of the cells in the body. BTW, I like to think of myself as more a wild rat than mouse.
See I thought the title referred to the conspiracy theory that modern society is like an experiment lab and we are lab mice in a maze, the subjects of controlled experiments and breeding by a single monolithic entity, when in actuality we are more like wild mice in reserves being observed and influenced in more subtle ways by a number of light-touch non-collective shadow agencies. But then I thought, it's probably both. Kinda like in 1984 where the middle class had their lives strictly monitored and controlled by Big Brother while the lower class were more "free" yet lived in poverty. At least that was my interpretation.
Oh yeah, it's a huge problem. We've certainly improved from putting people in hot tubs to see if they go blind for testing, but the treating has not improved that much. The study about using a variety of mice is from 6 years ago, so we can only cross our fingers that changes are being implemented and research is coming down the pipeline.
Probably not as much as you'd expect, mice have pretty fast generations so you'd need decades to learn stuff with humans that only take a couple years with mice. That's putting aside the evil factor, it's just not efficient.
@@MiDnYTe25😎Hey if the Supreme Court of the United States of America operates without ethics oversight why should Scientists working with those people who drive like they own the road (just my test subject suggestion) or Politicians
I’m a cancer researcher. This video is pretty good, but there is one caveat. We cannot put human tumor cells into mice unless we disable their immune system. Researchers and companies have done this by breeding mice that are immune compromised which we use for human cancers. That being said, we can still use mouse tumors to study immune interactions, but we typically inject tumors that came from the same breed of mice to prevent rejection of the tumor. Basically I don’t think this type of diversity will help most cancer research.
I’m sure Hank knows about this but the miracle drug Remicade is made up of mouse protein and I wouldn’t be alive without that drug today. I thank those mice and try to honour they’re sacrifice and hope that research continues to improve because of them.
Oh. I consider myself a fancy mouse. Clean but not completely sterile to the outside world. My immune system isn't the best but its not a total pushover either. Pretty sure wild mice are stronger than me.
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this video irresponsibly argues for harvesting wild mice from the wild in a time of global mass-extinction. mice are not people, this is the lab-animal industry pivoting to deal with the fact that animal models barely ever work. translational medicine fails to translate in much higher than 90% of cases after passing animal trials.
Animal research is utterly useless most of the time and anyone doing this work will not disagree with my statistic given it's usually actually higher than that in published research on the topic (I took a safe value so as not to inflate, erring on the side of caution, it is over 90% in any case).
Could you consider adding captions to your videos?
Soooo.... can we use those crazy Australian mouse explosions for lab research mice now?!
You ever heard about US civil war re-enactments? I'm doing something similar right now, by accident because I'm copy-pasting something which I told someone else. Yes, it's slightly comedic Only If you take it seriously. Otherwise you'll probably believe me too much.
Well, the decision-making behavior of such a court as, for example, Singapore's is ostensibly part of a continuum of recorded history (ie: similar to China). IT'S A GOVERNMENT WHICH HOSTS COURT HEARINGS; A HEARING IS NOT A TIME TO TRY TO LISTEN TO THE MESSAGES OF SPIRITS; A HEARING IS NOT A SEANCE during which spirits "are heard" giving the verdict: "NOT A[nother instance of a group of people claiming to be owning land a few hundred years from now, in like 1800ish maybe to 2023, under the name,] 'NEPAL'". Are you implying that The Carta Magna was a Ouija Board?
The headline is informing us that the Japanese are basically "on strike until a religious extremist will inform them that he has begun to unite them". What is your response?
Do I look like a scary racist Chinese dad now? DO I LOOK LIKE A SCARY RACIST CHINESE DAD NOW? ARE YOU SCARED YET?
Do I care about the new rebelliousness which has [just now] been conceived [or born] in your soul? Can I be expected to care about it? If you're truly a mystic, are you verily able to predict, truly, that I care about it? Is that your "final prediction"?
REMEMBER WHO SOLD YOU THAT
ruclips.net/video/dVnOvDme7hE/видео.html
This is neat, that scientists are looking to diversify their models in this way. But really, I just want to say that all the mouse footage in this video is absolutely fantastic.
Also, as Bret Weinstein pointed out, lab mice are bred to have extremely long telomeres, so they are really good at dealing with cell damage, meaning we dont learn if a drug may harm our organs. It also causes them to have a much higher incidence of tumors, which may cause reasearchers to overestimate the carcinogenic effects of pathogens.
I know scientists like to have things in nice, standardized units but this seems like a no brainer to me mostly because we humans are... well, anything but standardized and sanitary.
They like those standardized units because it makes it easier to detect differences. The real value of field mice is in getting another reference point that makes it easier to then translate those differences to the real world. You still need those 2+ groups of lab mice to detect base-level differences.
@@absalomdraconis well yeah, that's gonna be definite anyways, but as you said, there's a huge advantage in having field mice too.
Omg mice are so cute. Love that throughout the whole episode we could bask in their adorableness.
All my life I thought we were mouses, thank you for making me realise we are something more than that
Man I'm seeing you everywhere from scishow to penguinz0 vids
Wait, were not mice?
Ok, are you a bot that is just tracking me. Your everywhere. How do you do that?
@Penalty For Me You're just jealous. (:
One of the great commenters of youtube.
Lab mice also have longer telomeres as well. Shout to Brett Weinstein. Most of the lab mice are bred here in Maine by Jackson Labs; more than 80% of all mouse publications that cite use of a specific strain indicate having used JL's JAX mice.
(Edited, incorrectly stated that lab mice have shorter telomeres than wild mice, when they are in fact longer. It's not the size of your telomeres, however, it's how you use them)
Longer*
Lab mice have telomeres 5-10x as long as humans.
How cool!! Science is so fascinating.
@@ChillyJack The difference in length I was referencing was between the lab mice and wild mice.
@theonetruemorty lab mice have longer telomers than wild mice and human beings
other way around. They have longer telomeres.
Ah, so that's why cats like me so much. Comforting.
I'd say you're okay until cats start batting you around with their paws and play-hunting you.
Lab mice usually aren't kept in a sterile environment. They themselves have a microbiota, too. There are exceptions like gnotobiotic mice, which are completely sterile. It is true, however, that they are usually specific-pathogen-free and need to mount fewer immunological responses since their litter, food, and usually water are sterilized.
They're not sterile sterile, but they're relatively free of common wild mouse pathogens like hantavirus, etc.
So as the mouse technician for a research lab, I can say that two other reasons for lab mice to be sterile of typical murine pathogens is to protect the people who handle them and prevent outbreaks between the colonies of different labs in a given animal facility. I get bit a couple times a year-if I wash my hands the most I have to worry about is some minor irritation, not yellow fever, hantavirus, herpes, etc.
Additionally, inbred mice tend to be more docile and less jumpy than their wild counterparts, requiring considerably less stress, time, and bodily peril on the part of the technicians charged with their care.
Not sure I’d want to be working with infected wild mice 😅
Yeah, so I guess they'd reserve wild mice for special occasions. Like maybe sift through candidate drugs with lab mice first, then wild, then chimps and apes, before finally testing it in humans
Guess you missed the part where every mouse outside of sterile inbreed lab mice are "wild" mice, like pet shop mice.
I was thinking about exactly that when he mentioned exposing the lab mice to diseases they would have encountered in the wild. The main reason mice are something to be avoided in the wild is because of the diseases they carry, so I wouldn't think scientists would want to be working so much with exposed mice. I guess that is why they came to the compromise of just diversifying the lab mouse gene pool so they can inherit those wild mouse attributes.
I worked two spring/summer trapping seasons in a lab that worked with wild mice when I was in college. In my second season I worked handling the mice. We would catch on average 100 mice a day split between 3-4 of us paid researchers. Luckily I was only bit twice and only once through the glove, we were always concerned about things like hantavirus. We had to hike through the woods in our mapped out grids carrying crates filled with mouse traps, making sure not to carry them near our face. To then process them and hike them back to release them were we caught them. It was rough and nerve racking, I could not have continued doing that job. The PI was starting to incorporate lab mice into our research when I left the job, so I only had the chance to work with the lab mice once but it was a dream compared to the wild ones lol. I don't recommend it, but seeing all the videos of the wild mice made me miss it a little bit.
I also change my jeans when I get sick, especially when it affects the jeans directly.
Maus. In all seriousness though, it's interesting how wild mice can be more similar to us than lab mice. I never would have thought of that!
We're all dirty, dirty mice
I like that reference!
You know what's even more similar. People. And you what's even more similar. You.
And how fungi are more similar to animals than they are to plants
@@bmr4566 I'd say in two areas: immune system training/exposure, but also in genetic diversity.
(that's why scientists added two new variants to their mouse models repertoire: Collaborative-Cross, and Diversity-Outbred; each addresses one of the two differences)
I've heard that some researchers have started using lawyers as test subjects rather than mice. This approach has three advantages-
1. There are more lawyers than mice;
2. The scientists don't get emotionally attached to the lawyers the way they did with the mice; and
3. There are some things that a mouse just won't do. 😁
I keep pet rats. It's incredible how much research there is out there about their physical and mental health. I have however noticed that some of the lab rat results just don't always translate perfectly to my baby girls. And again it's because my rats have a lot more genetic diversity and live very different lives.
Probably also because your baby girls aren't socially isolated. In many studies, rats especially (but mice often as well) are singly houses from adolescence, and that makes a huge difference in behavior.
@katyhaynes1765 Yes, their lives are very different from those of lab rats. Rat and human friends, enrichment, plenty of space.
This is a great overview of this topic. Mouse selection is a hot topic among biomedical researchers.
I like how Hank doesn't dumb things down by oversimplifying, even within an overview.
There is another huge issue that you're not mentioning. Because of how they've been bred, lab mice have telomeres that are way longer than field mice. Way, way longer. This enables cells in lab mice to divide many more times before they self-destruct, which means lab mice all die of cancer.
It also means that lab mice have much more regenerative capacity than regular mice. Which means that drugs that kill a few cells are going to have less of a negative effect on lab mice than they would on field mice (or people) because other cells can just divide and replace them.
This leads to drugs being considered safe when they aren't.
Do you have a source for this? It sounds fascinating. (And looks like a severely abridged explanation of a rather dangerous rabbit hole of a subject.)
@@arielsalinger-kraft6197 - I believe it was Bret Weinstein's PhD thesis. He hypothesized that telomeres were a cancer prevention system, and that shorter lived animals would have shorter telomeres. Unfortunately, lab mice didn't conform, but field mice did.
I've never thought that long telemers could cause cancer, but that makes a lot of sense. Very interesting hypothesis
Fascinating. Thank you sharing.
That's why safety studies are always conducted on multiple species
Rats and mice are unsung heroes. They are incredibly adaptive, intelligent, and emotional creatures; and they survive despite our best attempts to eradicate them.
woah its the guy from the thumbnail, huge fan
@@wrg_101 Rat*
I own a pet mouse, it likes to be held, it does funny things when you tap its ears, it enjoys internet surfing, and loves sleeping near my computer.
It's named Corsair ;)
does it have a sibling named Logitech?
This joke made my night!
The other way lab mice are not like us is that they have a comparatively impoverished environment. Would they respond differently if they had more stimulation and challenge in their lives?
0:55 Mice being opti-MICE-d. Missed opportunity here.
Aging biologist here! This is fascinating, and could be super-important for aging biology because we think that some infections stick around _for life_ and may themselves be a part of the aging process, so studying totally sterile mice could be a bad idea. But also, there’s a case that humans are, in some ways, more like lab mice than wild mice-our surroundings are far more sterile than the wild, and we have vaccines and antibiotics which mean that, while we’re not subject to no disease, we’re subject to far less. It’ll be interesting to see how all this pans out, and which mice turn out to be most relevant for which studies…
I read your first exclamation and thought, "are you an aging biologist or a biologist who studies aging? Or both?" 😅
Silly joke, I know. But it's coming from another aging biologist (who's nearly middle-aged).
Nah, my immune system sucks, I'm definitely a lab mouse.
Adopt a wild mouse !!
@@shigekax or better than that, go outside!
@D. Alejandro Rojas G. I spend a lot of time outside, actually. 😆 I just have health problems.
@@shigekax I don't know if that'd be good for OP?
When scientists try to eliminate variables in live animals, nature laughs in their face
Remember my first experiment with mice, my tutor fainted when we were sacrifising the animals (in order to test morphologic changes in their liver and pancreas) and she was the one who told me "try to imagine them as a very sensitive reactants". Poor of her, she wanted to seem heartless but it backfire.
I really liked the mouse footage, please do more mouse footage
🤔 Now I'm just picturing the harmless mousetrap where they step on the top part of a specially printed bucket lid and they get dropped into the bucket
Great video! It highlights expansion of nuance in scientific research, for biology/human health. It rightfully doesn't say "past science was wrong" or that using lab mice is wrong. Using lab mice was not wrong (to help humans) & must continue, but we must consider more.
The video DOES say that the "mouse model" used so-far must be expanded, to be a "wider mouse model" -- consisting of many phases of experiments all using mice -- initially on "Pure-bred Lab mice"; if the research demands it then next on "Collaborative-Cross mice"; if the research further requires it (e.g. in studies where immune function/status may have large impact) then to also include "Diversity-Outbred mice". Only after these phases of experiments show promise (of a candidate molecule/drug) do we consider more expensive (e.g. primate or human) trials. It should greatly improve efficacy of human trials, especially in areas of cancer & other research where the human/mammalian immune system has significant role.
It's very important for non-experts to see that (in almost all cases), prior science/scientific understanding is not wrong, but "less effective" than a newer/novel understanding. In this video's example, our prior use of lab-mice worked very well (and should not be eliminated), & the new model (of using a multi-phased mice-model) should work better. The new method/model is not a replacement, but an enhancement.
👉 This is how most scientific methods/processes improve -- through enhancement rather than replacement.
👉 Example: Newton's Laws weren't replaced, but enhanced by General Relativity (it helps accuracy in high velocity/acceleration/gravity)
In science we don't replace the whole thing (i.e., "throw out the baby with the bathwater") -- instead in science we enhance (i.e., "change the bathwater, knowing the baby is important")
Good comment. You might want to summarize because too many wont' read that long and it's important. I don't have the bandwidth to do it, or I would.
I had an auto immune disorder, i must be a lab mouse
And yet, ironically wild mice are the ones they're gonna use to figure out what's going on with our bodies. I sure hope at some point they figure out how to talk immune systems into ceasefire, even if I don't get to see it.
If you want to know how a sheltered child fares in the real world, send him to college with a roommate he hates 😁
This seems like you are holding out on us, please tell your story!
so, essentially testing 10,000 lab mice is the same as testing 1 mouse 10,000 times. like if we took Ed and tested a drug on 10,000 copies of him. and used those findings to get a medication to market
could see so many ways that could go wrong. i've heard of selecting the wrong test subjects to avoid unwanted results. this taking it to a whole new level of unwanted error
That's why there are different models for studying each variable. You have to know what your animal model is good for and what its limitations are. You might for example start with a simple model to test if the drug even works in a living body. Then you work with a more representative model and confirm the results in multiple species.
Having kept both mice and rats as pets, I can safely say, with 100% certainty that the animal in the thumbnail is a Rattus norvegicus, aka brown rat, not a mouse😅
also the lab animal being held by the human later in the video
yeah this video is kind of a game of "spot the baby rats" isn't it lol
I don't know, my roommate has pet rats and the thumb nail looks like a field mouse to me. It doesn't look long enough to be a rat. (Unless they changed the thumbnail after your comment. )
The amount of people that come in to work in my lab that think mice are baby rats is astounding.
There have allegedly been instances of people who have lived in an environment that was too "sterile"-ish being sickly all the time. Taken out of that environment and exposed to (GASP!) common germs and dirt, their immune systems grew stronger. I'm not sure if there was ever a "peer reviewed" study on it though. What little information I have was passed down to me through word of mouth.
We can pretend we are like wild mice but Mice and Dolphins will always rank above us- mainly because they know not to forget their towel.
I know they're important for research, but I feel so bad for the mice... :(
There are actually a ton of rules on how the mice need to be treated and handled! My undergraduate research project involved mice, so I had to go through a 3 hour basic education course which included recognizing the body language which would indicate a mouse was in pain and needed pain killers - which we were required to give unless we had a darn good & committee approved reason not to (ie, had to have data showing how giving the mouse painkillers would screw with the experimental data). Animal research isn't ideal, but I felt a lot better about it after I learned how many protections were in place. It isn't the 1950s anymore. We're a lot more careful.
@@meganofsherwood3665 that does make me feel a bit better, thank you for sharing 😊 not ideal, as you said, but I understand.
@@witchskee and some of them get adopted! Not very many, of course, but most of the Lab Animal Research facilities encourage empolyees to adopt retired lab animals if they want pets, since it lowers the risk of employees bringing in outside infections that could harm the lab population. So some of them even get a happily-ever-after!
@@meganofsherwood3665 Nice.
Your welcome Hank. Keep bringing relevant science, an some of us will keep trying to improve.
*You're
Maybe you need to watch some language videos instead.
@@MontgomeryWenis we can see that he's wrong but why do you gotta be *that guy* about it?
@@Dee-jp7ek The irony of misspelling words in the comment section of the science video baffles me. Not being any guy. Just myself, thank you very much.
@@MontgomeryWenis Despite overlapping, those subjects/interests aren't dependant on the other to enjoy, plus it was a simple grammatical error. All you're doing is being a jerk and dissuading others from learning.
Very interesting! I did find the episode dragged on a little bit and was quite repetitive after a while, but cool information none the less!
I hope that Bret Weinstein is getting credit for pioneering this research because from what I know he's the one who blew the lid off of this.
You mean the right-wing nutjob covid denier?
I tried to explain to a friend why research using animals was so vital, even though I hated the idea of animal suffering. I wish I'd had this video during that discussion.
NGL there are so many fields out there that could benefit from real world counterparts, from bacteria, to mice, to amphibians. Sterile environments are kinda bad when you get to the intricacies of an ecosystem.
Just make labs with a 1/2 acre preserved wildlife area 👀 where specimens can be held in a mild control
So, despite all my rage, I’m still just a mouse in a field?
What about knockout mice? They are a lot closer to us than other mice, cos they have had some of their own genes 'knocked out' and replaced with human dna?
No, they are the same as lab mice except for the one gene out of the huge numbers of genes mice have.
Hank is back!
Question, could we work on making a treatment for people with autoimmune disorders by synthesizing the foxp3?
Love this channel. Keep it up.
At least the lab mice studies will be able to help people like the royal family
Extremely pale individuals, inbred for generations upon generations to maintain specific uncommon traits and some misplaced idea of "purity..." Makes sense to cater to them, though, they've got the money!
Sushi you ate earlier in the day. By the way, I have difficulty communicating because I had a stroke in Broca’s area, the part of the brain that controls speech. 2/8/2021 but I lived again. (My wife helped me compose this.)
Truly shocking that horribly inbreeding and sterilizing mice has lead to a worse outcome. Nobody could have predicted that.
On the internet nobody knows you're a lab mouse.
Yall should look into their elongated telomerase in lab mice causing false positives in pre human trials
So... They could potentially apply to humans who may be raised in sterile environments in space in the perhaps not so far future?
They're so cute. It's heartbreaking.
So was kids dying of a cancer that is now curable d/t drugs testing on the mice. I guess it's a choice of what is more heartbreaking.
Maybe they might consider using bioactive enclosures for lab mice now!
Honestly thought the "new approach" was how mice were being used already, like always, since i learned what lab mice are
Always interesting, thank you.
Haven't even finished the video opening before my wildlife safety alarms are going off!
"All models are wrong, some models are useful."
This
As someone with an autoimmune disease I really hope they can get on their way to some breakthroughs!!! 😢 autoimmune diseases SUCK!!!
Humans being all eyes and knees is my favorite gross image in a while. Thank you Hank!!❤
The cute mouse picture caught my attention
Lots of cruelties.
"They might breed mice with their sibling for up to 27 generations, and they like it that way"
SWEET HOME ALABAMA
To quote Paul Rudd on Friends: "Yeah, not so much a problem for mice."
*Banjo noises*
lol I know that mouse picture in the thumbnail. When I was teaching myself to draw and I drew that mouse picture. It's funny seeing it here.
4.58
'But everything changed when the fire nation attacked'
I'm glad I'm not the only one that spotted that hidden meme
Something that might be worth considering: Mammalian immune cells have a different genome than each other and all of the other cells in the body. This is because during development, they randomly scramble part of their genomes. These millions of non-identical cells are then subjected to (at least) two rounds of selection according to their reactions to environmentally available antigens (I'm not going to speculate about the effect on diversity of immune cells of a sterile lab environment, because immune system details hurt my brain, but I'm pretty sure the lab mice are more homogenous than the wild; oh, crap now my brain hurts). So it's not only that immune cells use their genomes differently depending on their exposure to antigens, they actually have different genomes than each other and the rest of the cells in the body.
BTW, I like to think of myself as more a wild rat than mouse.
"Hardened wild mice" is now the title of my new indie game :D
See I thought the title referred to the conspiracy theory that modern society is like an experiment lab and we are lab mice in a maze, the subjects of controlled experiments and breeding by a single monolithic entity, when in actuality we are more like wild mice in reserves being observed and influenced in more subtle ways by a number of light-touch non-collective shadow agencies. But then I thought, it's probably both. Kinda like in 1984 where the middle class had their lives strictly monitored and controlled by Big Brother while the lower class were more "free" yet lived in poverty. At least that was my interpretation.
They've basically actualized the spherical cow from all those science jokes
I can now tell by the title when they're Hank videos
I watched the little mouse eating that seed so often! 😍
Maybe it's time to begin a secondary genepool of lab mice with new practices in place.
This may actually be a good idea.
To work to home and back♻️ I'm definitely a lab human
The same will be true for laboratory rats too I imagine?
"And researchers like it that way." We're still referring to the mice, I hope.
Can we see a video on Quantum Coherence Modulation Microscopy??!
No dude, thank you for making class fun
I was so confused by the title, I just had to watch the video
I can just see scientists in the break rooms of their universities, raiding the cupboards for fresh mice!
I wonder how many mice escape the labs, and how they interact with wild mice😅
@@nos9784 They don't really escape
@@osteoclast6884 that's what they want you to believe. 😎
I should watch "Pinky & the Brain" sooner or later...
I haven't watched the video yet just clicked, but regardless of how this video turns out the title already says everything that needs to be said!
Great video
Their on that stair landing, I got a quick and lasting lesson on the meaning of the word: rat.
What about the monkeys they use for a lot of lab experiments? I assume it's the same thing going on there.
I have been called a wildcard, but never before a wild mice! :O
Super cool!
Anyone waiting for something about telomeres
So what I'm hearing is that researches trying to make lab mice v2.0
There is certainly a huge gap in medicine when it comes to autoimmune disorders.
Oh yeah, it's a huge problem. We've certainly improved from putting people in hot tubs to see if they go blind for testing, but the treating has not improved that much. The study about using a variety of mice is from 6 years ago, so we can only cross our fingers that changes are being implemented and research is coming down the pipeline.
Why would cats treat us like they do? Because we’re nice!
Thanks autocorrect 🙄
What does the foxp3 say?
Thought Pet Shop Mice was a new wave rock group...
I volunteer my uninvited wild house mice! Free for the taking!!!
Hi Hank!
Imagine what we could discover if we used lab humans
I can recommend a certain someone. !!!!!
(A few actually.)
A whole plethora of ethical issues
Probably not as much as you'd expect, mice have pretty fast generations so you'd need decades to learn stuff with humans that only take a couple years with mice. That's putting aside the evil factor, it's just not efficient.
@@MiDnYTe25😎Hey if the Supreme Court of the United States of America operates without ethics oversight why should Scientists working with those people who drive like they own the road (just my test subject suggestion) or Politicians
8:09 is a baby rat, not mouse. :3
The image used for the episode is also a rat and not a mouse 😂
Edit: LOL it is now a mouse! ❤️
"W....what are you doing step-lab-mouse?"
I don't WANT to say, I'm mighty mouse, buuuut.....
I’m a cancer researcher. This video is pretty good, but there is one caveat. We cannot put human tumor cells into mice unless we disable their immune system. Researchers and companies have done this by breeding mice that are immune compromised which we use for human cancers. That being said, we can still use mouse tumors to study immune interactions, but we typically inject tumors that came from the same breed of mice to prevent rejection of the tumor. Basically I don’t think this type of diversity will help most cancer research.
I’m sure Hank knows about this but the miracle drug Remicade is made up of mouse protein and I wouldn’t be alive without that drug today. I thank those mice and try to honour they’re sacrifice and hope that research continues to improve because of them.
You can develop allergies? Can thise be cured compared to genetically stemmed ones?
Oh. I consider myself a fancy mouse. Clean but not completely sterile to the outside world. My immune system isn't the best but its not a total pushover either. Pretty sure wild mice are stronger than me.
so some good looking wild mouse that's all buff from fighting for its life gets put in a cages with a Hapsburg mouse? wow that is messed up