Iraq: The Legacy
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 30 сен 2024
- It's 20 years since the invasion of Iraq - but what is its legacy?
Tony Blair said to Parliament in March 2003 that what happened in Iraq would ‘determine the pattern of international politics for the next generation’.
Join Alastair and Rory as they discuss the implications of the Iraq invasion and whether Blair’s speech did prove to be true...
TRIP Plus:Become a member of The Rest Is Politics Plus to support the podcast, enjoy ad-free listening to both TRIP and Leading, benefit from discount book prices on titles mentioned on the pod, join our Discord chatroom, and receive early access to live show tickets and Question Time episodes. Just head to therestispolitics.com to sign up.
Instagram:@restispolitics
Twitter:@RestIsPolitics
Email:restispolitics@gmail.com
Producers: Dom Johnson + Nicole Maslen
Exec Producers: Tony Pastor + Jack Davenport
As much as I appreciate where AC is coming from I’ll never forget the crazy, weird way in which New Labour transformed itself from the super positive party of the people into the paranoid, war-on-terror fuelled sidekick to the US neocons. It could’ve been so good
Lovely presentation. whatever you think of Campbell. Stewart remains an exemplum. If only the Conservative and Union non-party could learn from his example, as opposed to muppetd like Rees=Mogg and Dorries.
He's lying all throughout this episode and the previous one - creating the illusion that we had good intentions, but just messed up
I’m new to this channel, and very much enjoying the educational content so far.
This conversation was also very interesting and educational for me.
However I just can’t understand how throughout this two part series, there wasn’t a single mention of the innocent Iraqi civilians which were killed.
Anyways, I accept that not every episode will be perfect. Try to keep up the quality in future. 👍🏼
Listening to this and Part 1, I just feel like Alistair has missed the point of what people criticize the Blair and Bush administrations for. As an American, I think the most frustrating thing about Iraq is that basically everyone agrees that it was a disaster. We were very gung-ho to invade at the time, especially post 9/11, but basically 3-4 years in, I think the public at large realized we had failed in our main goals. We accomplished nothing except getting rid of Saddam, made large parts of the world hate us, broken international norms, burned bridges with our allies, and the Iraqis at large suffered for it all. And the goal of "nation building" wasn't even thought out, Bremer was basically shooting from the hip when he was in charge because there was no plan for the occupation. The most frustrating thing for me is that no one who was making decisions, even 20 years later when we've seen what happened in the aftermath, is willing to take responsibility on those failings. Not Rumsfeld, not Bush, not Blair, not Cheney, not Wolfowitz, not Powell, not Rice, nobody in the Intelligence chain, nobody. Absolutely everyone "stands by their decision" to launch what was essentially an insane war to try and rebuild Iraq in the image of America using shoddy intelligence. And in the aftermath, everyone acts as if it was nothing and that nothing happened.
I think it would just be nice for someone who was in those rooms to just say "You know what, we made a grave mistake. It cost hundreds of thousands of lives, our troops died for almost nothing, we spent a fortune, and we undermined the principles our countries stand for" But instead, basically all the people with influence double down and say that it was the right thing to do. And it's just so frustrating to hear that over and over again when reality has proven otherwise
At the very opening - the invasion "went relatively well" says Alastair - only a smallish number of deaths in the military - NOT a mention of the deaths of Iraqis - My estimation of Alastair's conscience is that it seems lacking.
It is infuriating that they thought they could go over then copy and paste what they thought the government should look like, with no respect for the people, their history and their sensibilities, on the pretense that Iraq was functioning on some barbaric level. I feel like I've heard this before? O yes colonialism.
So they ruined millions of lives, messed up a country for generations, OVER WHAT!?! Not once, during both parts of this interview does Alistair show compassion for the millions of lives ruined in Iraq. And then the sheer arrogance to say they made improvements in the country, when you destroy a country and their people you don't get brownie points for cleaning up the mess you made.
If the failure was systemic it shows how little the political system understands the world. Any scholar of complex systems - and any society is a complex system made up of a plethora of subsystems, including Iraqi society under Hussein - would say that trying of remodel it from the outside/above was a recipe for absolute disaster, massive unintended consequences, mass death and suffering. Whatever the verdict on legality, this was massive hubris.
I have UK and US citizenship and worked for American companies worldwide. I watched Britain's ambassadors (ie, Meyer and Manning) at the time give speeches on the wars to American audiences. I concluded they were out of their depth, especially Manning. The Americans would treat them like useful idiots and ignore them. What did Blair and Straw know about life outside Westminster let alone the Middle East? They were innocents abroad. However, Blair's international fame made him a wealthy man. Harold Wilson opposed Vietnam and ended his life in genteel poverty. The American public views the Iraq War as a mistake. Bush ended his time in office with a 22% approval rating and is still a pariah. According to a team at Brown University the "War on Terror" cost $8 trillion and achieved little.
How Alastair can call Boris Johnson a liar when he (Alastair) was solely responsible for the 'dodgey dossier' that took his nation to war, (and caused a suicide) is an impressive feat of mental gymnastics.
I am a long time listener to the rest is politics and like both guys. But hearing the lies peddled by Cambell on Iraq feels like old wounds been re-opened. I served 2 tours and well remember been shown the top secret footage of the weapons of mass destruction facilities that turned out not to be there. Lies from start to finish and a lot of good people were killed and injured in the war for no reason.
Id have rather these 2 episodes were not made as I feel like I have lost trust that in AC.
Tony Blair should stand trail for war crimes.
If you listen to these episodes it becomes very clear that the special relationship with the US still many in the UK cheer about, never existed. The UK had absolutely nothing to say about what was going on in Iraq. Even 20 years later the UK still thinks that it has a role in geo politics on its own. It is about time that a more modest attitude is shown and not talk as if the UK had any influence in the outcome of the Iraqi conflict.
We could probably have stopped it - the US needed its 'coalition of the willing' facade, and we gave it to them
There is a closer relationship between the UK and US due to shared language, culture and history.
But it also depends on the leaders and events. The US always does what's in it's best interests. So does the UK. 90% of the time those interests align. Sometimes they don't.
It's not the USs fault, nor the UKs. It's life.
@@idleishde6124 Since the Suez crisis we have been nothing but the lapdog of the US
The 'special relationship' is derided in Europe - they see it for what it is
Fighting illegal wars in the middle east isn't in the UK's interest
Soft power. We were wanted on board simply so the US could say ''this isn't just us -- look''. The thing I'd love to know is what pressure they put on Blair. I remember at the time that other European countries were all calling for weapons inspections to continue and doubting the American intelligence. That softened over time but that was how it went initially.
To be fair my understanding is that outside of politics the concept of a special relationship is one more known by the yanks
How ironic, that Campbell's illegal war in Iraq could have eventually led to Brexit.
Says a lot that this podcast has just 7k views, whereas Gary Lineker discussion has 20k. 🤷🏻♂️ Fascinating insight into a hugely controversial part of our recent history. Thank you!
The reason why people think of this first and foremost when thinking of Blair's legacy is because it was a catastrophically bad decision that would have previously led to the person making it resigning, but for week after week, month after month the message from Alistair was 'Whether it was right or wrong, it's behind us now, move on'. The Tories then totally learned the lesson: just repeat the same soundbite and wait for the news cycle to move on and it will.' This was where personal accountability in politics died.
Could not agree more, Iraq was the breeding ground for the mistrust of government we see today and Alistair and Tony are arrogantly blind to this.
“How difficult would it be if […] we didn’t find evidence of the wmd programme?” So what pretext, on the strength of which the invasion was justified, *did* they have, if not evidence? Belief?? I’m afraid this just opens old wounds for me.
This and Part 1 were the best-ever episodes of 'The Rest is History'...
Agree 100%! They should do more on the topic
A second fascinating rational and thought provoking discussion on what remains a controversial topic. Many thanks gentlemen!
Controversial -- I think a better word is needed for murdering hundreds of thousands of people
Campbell is no gent .lowest of the low
This isn't the right platform for logical fallacies & infantile personal attacks. Try X
This is the youtube equivalent of TV gold
I got very sick and tired of seeing tory government after tory government returned to office over the last 13 years, and hearing nothing but 'Iraq war' from Labour supporters and party members, keen to disown the only Labour government in my (now middle aged) lifetime, as though it was the only thing that Tony Blair did in three terms.
I heard Hitler made a lot of popular reforms as well
Sadly the reality is that after 13 years of the Tories there isn't anything left in the way a legacy!. I just hope the next Labour government understands this and finally gets rid of FPTP so we don't any more extreme governments.
Well, it wasn't just any issue, was it?
Minimum wage and devolution plus Good Friday agreement? Weren't they Labour achievements? Unfortunately Iraq overshadows all of it!
@@Fort976 Iraq was no more the summation of 3 Labour terms than the falkland war was the summation of thatcherism. The last 13 years of incressingly right wing bonkers should have taught you there is a difference between the parties
Alastair always sounds so nervous and defensive about Iraq. Like if he gives an inch on it, he'll lose his mind and self-regard completely. .
I think Alastair has a hard time squaring systematic accountability with personal accountability.
Rory is implicitly pivoting to systematic accountability, but it feels like Alastair - not quite able to differentiate the two - misunderstands it as Rory pushing for personal accountability. The result is that Alastair defends the system in an effort to protect himself.
It would be easier if Alastair just admits there was a systematic failure, make the case for himself regarding personal accountability - but nevertheless accept the judgement of the public.
Spot on. AC will deflect, grasp at excuses and bluff all day. Deep inside himself he knows that his skills were used to justify an illegal war that killed innocent men, women and children. He also had a role in David Kelly’s suicide. He’d could ease the obvious suffering that consumes him with honesty and an acknowledgement he got it wrong in supporting the zealot TB.
There was no failure - it was deliberate lies to justify an illegal invasion and murder hundreds of thousands of people
Hence the controversy - even the foreign secretary at the time made it clear and resigned over it, probably giving the last truly great speech in parliamentary history
Groupthink.
Yeah he feels guilty. He can't admit it even to himself and that's why he so quickly gets defensive or tries to divert the conversation. He knows what they did
Wow! What a moving and painful episode - terrific stuff
The current parliament Tory MPs would do well to consider Alastair's and Rory's honesty. The point is personal accountability is evitable. Both are haunted by their experiences. Some Tory MPs just might be haunted by their support for Brexit and Boris. Hopefully, Brexit will lead to the end of the Tory party. Rory should consider a return to parliament. Rory might become a good PM.
Rory would be better as foreign sec.
Honesty, sure
The Head of the UN Weapons Inspection team at the time, Hans Blix thinks Bush and Blair should face trial at the Hague. Given his role at the time, I tend to agree with him.
What is left out in these conversations is crucial. Claire Short gives compelling evidence here: ruclips.net/video/Omgd-FAp12M/видео.html
Literally every contemporary Middle East historian or analyst recognises that Syria was inflamed as a direct consequence of 'The Caliphate and civil war in Iraq.
Syria experts understand that the Assad regime was the cause of ISIS. They released thousands of militants from its prisons when the democratic revolution started.
Excellent pair of podcasts dealt with with intelligence and maturity. As someone who left the Labour Party over Iraq I nearly didn't listen to this, but very glad I did.
Fascinating insider accounts... well done chaps.
Well done A & R. ‘The road to hell is paved by good intentions’ . Rory, you did a very skilled job at facilitating. Alistair, you have amazing inner strength to stand by your thoughts at the time. At some point, for one’s conscience to be clear, one’s heart needs to be open to all the pain that has come out of this episode. Daunting of course, but unavoidable I order to reach the uplands of wisdom and compassion. Much respect to you both.
There were no good intentions - but you need to pretend to have them to keep the gullible public on board
Has always been this way, and the public never learns
what youtube is for...
Fascinating and interesting. Revisiting with courage. Very ell done.
Fascinating the complete lack of understanding shown by Campbell. "Do you think the de-Baathification process fed into that" the issues are still completely over his head.
Powerful soul searching. Considering that we cannot even get our own garbage bins collected by our own governments, trying to save other countries in the world and run them in good order is a quest slightly bigger than our capabilities.
It had nothing to do with saving a country, the motives were as sinister as can be
Well done AC and RS. What a fantastic reflection on a very difficult situation that any government has to face and the consequences arising from that. Your insightful opinions are fantastic listening. Thanks.
Loved it
Loved it
Loved it
Thank you Alistair & Rory 😊
I do respect and am grateful for Alastair's honesty and courage in presenting himself for this type of Public examination over his role.
he's lying though - even teenagers knew it was all lies
I will never forgive Labour for their Iraq adventure.
I don't think this on the whole of the Labour party, my frustration is that those individuals responsible for the mess took no accountability and were allowed to get away with murder. It's one rule for society and another rule for them.
Good job by Rory. This type of podcast is much more interesting than the usual agree-fest
Listened to it avidly while waiting for a foot X-ray in hospital.
It is logically and carefully set out, I have read the Chilcot report and for me personally the invasion of Iraq was a serious error. Iraq😂 really were not a credible threat to the UK and Blair and others will hopefully get the admonishment they deserve for all the unnecessary deaths which their actions caused on both sides.
The Chilcot report deserves full praise for its research and for its accuracy. S K Riches.
Reminds me how Syria/Palestine was when the Ottomans were defeated there towards the end of WW1. Lawrence of Arabia with his Arab allies, etc.. Quite chaotic too.
And it's all work out so well !!
They encouraged unions in Japan and Germany! And now they are our closest allies.
Very very good.
Why does Alistair Campbell keep making jokes? Like it was all a jolly good bit of a romp.
😢
I made a comment after the last episode that I wished Alistair would articulate more contrition regarding the decision to go to war with Iraq. This episode I feel gives a better account in that regard.
Going to war in 2003 was, I feel, a catastrophically bad decision - but it it wasn't Alistair's decision.
I can imagine these two episodes have been hard for Alistair and I hope he can remain sanguine.
I like the person Alistair is today and I hope he does too.
He’s a war criminal and liar
Goebbels didn't make war decisions either
The previous episode and this episode were the most interesting of the series! Please speak more about Iraq!!!!