This is the article from American Machinist that talks about the health issues of coolant. www.americanmachinist.com/features/what-do-you-want-your-coolant-do
First off thank you for the time and quality you and your family put into these videos. I realize this is an old post, but I'm hoping it might still get a response. As a hobbyist and rookie to grinding what wheel might be appropriate for surfacing a small mag chuck if NO coolant was available. Only hoping to achieve "reasonable tolerances" nothing like what you are producing!
I would go with a 46H porous wheel. Normally I would not use porous wheels on the mag but heat is going to be your greatest enemy here so the porous wheel will help a lot with that. Light cuts no more than .0003" and redress after 2 passes (.0006"). Finish cuts no more than .0001" and blank passes.
Great "old school" knowledge. Been in the trade for 30 years and we didn't have RUclips to look things up. If you didn't learned tricks from the people around you, you learned the hard way- like wheels loading up, heat, and tilting a rectangle part for less surface contact per pass. You rock, Solid rock!
Finally someone that grinds the chuck the right way! I've cringed watching some of these other guys do it. I even saw one guy taking a .001 pass for his final grind! You must be a moldmaker, that is how I was taught when I was a apprentice. I remember some guys using crisco but I never had any luck with that. Coolant is definitely the way to go, I use the cool mist because my grinder doesn't have coolant on it and it seems to work well. Hats off to you Sir, love the channel!
Steve you are full of very handy trick! I take note for my shop... offsetting the rail out of the magnetic chuck make so much sense! I will follow your lead on this one... and this right angle jig grinder attachment too I never felt the B&S grinding attachment was making any sense you really want to fluid motion of the X axis parallel to the spindle axis. Thanks to share all theses great tips!
Thanks Simon, You are very observant! I don't recall saying why I offset the rail on the magnet or why it is short. I get the best of both worlds this way. I can use the back rail with a 90 degree angle plate to line things up off the rail even in the center of the magnet. Yet, I can put things that have to go past the rail on the magnet without removing it. I think I missed what you where saying but you are right about that too. Look at ruclips.net/video/Ftu2BosKNyk/видео.html at the 32:30 mark to see what I first thought you were talking about. Steve
Great video. We have been using speed controls on our surface grinders for over 15 years. You don't need coolant to grind a chuck. I would hate to grind without one now. In fact, if I had to grind often, and I do, I would pay for it myself. They are only about $300.
Thanks for the insight. The troubles I am having are : I was using a 7" 60 grit ceramic wheel, grinding a fine pole magnetic chuck made in China, the poles are separated by aluminium strips and the wheel as you might guess is loading up badly with aluminum, I am dry grinding, and lastly this chuck is out a ton it's probably going to take .005" - .010" just to clean it up. I am thinking of face milling a skim pass just to strengthen it up some. I think I am going go with a coarser wheel first as you suggested. It was loading bad just talking .0005" .
Looking through your videos and you got some good information👍. I'm getting a grinder and could use all the information I can get. I know very little about it.. I subscribed, thanks for the videos
Hi Steve, Grinding seems to be what many of our subscribers want to know most about so we do a lot of grinding content. Feel free to ask anything and if I have experience in that area I will be happy to share what works for me. Grinding is about controlling as many of the variables as you can. Wheel selection and wheel dressing in my opinion are the 2 main variables to control. Keeping things clean on the chuck and surface plate are very important as well. One of the first things you should get are the precision ground toolroom stones that Robin Rensitti did a video on ruclips.net/video/DVLXsq7pi9Y/видео.html These stones are worth there weight in gold when it comes to keeping your magnetic chuck at peak condition. I hope you enjoy the videos and thank for subscribing. I subscribed to your channel a few weeks ago and enjoy the content you are producing. Steve
Solid Rock Machine Shop Inc. Well thank you, I thought I had seen your channel icon before and heard your name.👍 Great to find your channel, thanks for the videos I already have a set of Robin R stones 👌. They changed the way I think about stoning. They are amazing.
Another informative video, thanks. I will hopefully see you at the bash this year. I would love to ask you about how your surface grinder is working out for you. I am in the market for one and am torn between the ACER and the ACRA.
Steve, when getting a new (used) machine that includes a chuck, should you true to bottom of the chuck as a matter of course? I have heard that it is best practice.
I’m so happy I stumbled across this vid, it all makes sense now, everything I was doing wrong you pointed out! I have an old PM 618 I’m adding coolant to it, what coolant do you use? I prefer not to have to get suited up every time I going to grind something, I’m guessing water based? Thanks
I use this coolant www.mscdirect.com/product/details/05930052 Make sure you use steam distilled water with it and you will not have to worry about it going sour. Steve
What would be the advantage of a 1 inch wide wheel over a 1/2 wide wheel and what thickness do you recommend for general grinding on the surface grinder? I am learning and loving every minute of it, Thank You for sharing
Hi imystery man, The advantage of a 1" wheel over a half " wheel would be double the cutting surface. If you were just flat grinding and coming all the way off a part then your wheel would last longer between dressing assuming you have the right wheel for the job. Another advantage would be if the 1" wheel was recessed for the hub nut then you could grind up to shoulders on tall parts without hitting the hub nut. The disadvantage would be a a little more heat build up if you are not careful. On larger grinders 1" and 2" wheels have more rigidity. On grinders with 8" and less wheels I prefer 1/2" thick for general grinding. Steve
Hi steve It sure is nice having someone who KNOWS what they are doing, make a video about grinding the magnet. If I might ask, what is your feelings about a hydraulic grinder?
Hi imystery man, At my full time job we have 2 large hydraulic grinders and they work great. We use them mainly for top and bottom flat grinding where the wheel comes all the way off the part. grinding slots or steps where there is shoulder work is scary on a hydraulic grinder. Steve
great video Steve, thanks for making it. I'm with you on mag on when grinding, yet the Eclipse chuck people advise mag off. Now I'm really confused! I just added coolant to my Jones &Shipman 540 and looking forward to dusting the chuck again. Question for you. Do you filter the coolant and/or have a magnet in the tank? Seems like that may help keep the coolant cleaner and increase its life. Thoughts? Thanks.
Hi Charlie, I use a sock filter for the coolant. we did a video on it here ruclips.net/video/yK3hWNYs6gI/видео.html I am not familiar with Eclipse chucks but I was always taught to grind the chuck with full magnet on and it always worked for me and others I know. You can see the accuracy I achieve in my videos and this only happens with a true chuck. Try it both ways and see if you can tell a difference and go with what works best. Steve
Solid Rock Machine Shop Inc. Thanks for the reply. Classic Bozo RUclips miscue for me. I saw your coolant video just after I posted my question! Will watch it next. Thanks
Here I am, trying to locate the manual for my DoAll, I seem to remember reading doing the preliminary grinding with the mag chuck off, finish grinding mag chuck on. Now I'm really confused, and I can't find the book right now. I think my furred herd hid it on me. I was paying more attention to that book than I was to the state of their feeder. I'll find it in plenty of time, I'm not going to try anything with the chuck until I need too ... Found it. Power off grinding was for the underside of the chuck, when you are installing it. Once the chuck is in position, aligned and secured, the chuck top surface is ground flat under full mag power. Even back then, they were speaking of the hazards of certain coolants. They are rather adamant about avoiding (cheap) synthetics and the potential dangers of old (bacteria laden) coolants to your skin, keeping yourself and what you wear in the shop clean, and not deliberately or unintentionally fouling your coolant (spitting, cigarette waste, food particles ... yeah I guess some guys were expected to each their lunches at the machines ...). Almost enough to frighten one away. I guess I need to figure out what today's equivalent of "Kleen-Cool" is. Seems there was a system for dispensing coolant to the side of the wheel and allowing it to be pulled through by centrifugal force to help the cooling and to help keep the wheel from loading up. Maybe it wasn't all it was cracked up to be, I don't see any newer machines repeating that system. I'll research that later, after I get some new wheels, some other tooling, and solve my power dilemma.
Sounds like you are on the right tract. The coolant we are using works great for us. Using true distilled water is key to keeping it from going sour. I have never seen coolant last this long without going sour. Steve
Looking forward to your next videos!!!! :) Enjoyed this one.. I need to grind my chuck for the first time You ever use SG wheels- seeded gel? thought on them ?
Hi D K, I have never tried the Norton SG wheels, but the Radiac ceramic Aluminum Oxide mix combined with open structure wheels are awesome. Ceramic wheels like to be aggressive and are good at removing a lot of stock fast and they grind cool in harder steels. Some times the finish may not be as good but I am talking very little difference if used right. Steve
There are so many opinions that differ in this area of precision. I respect Solid Rock Machine and Don Bailey at Suburban tool. Both say to use an H wheel. Steve says to use a full 8" wheel and Don says to use a very worn 7" wheel. Both opinions are to reduce heat. CONFUSING to a hobby guy with a B&S 618 Micromaster and a nice mag chuck.
Hi Jeff, I believe Don uses the smaller wheel to reduce surface feet per minute and therefore reduce heat. If you have a variable speed spindle you can control the SFM with a bigger wheel and negate this issue. I do not have a variable speed spindle but still prefer the larger wheel. The reason is that I have a larger circumference which gives much more cutting edges. The smaller wheel will load up much faster than the larger wheel. Once the wheel starts loading you will have metal to metal rubbing (Loaded wheel metal particles and the chuck). In my experience that produces more heat than the greater SFM of a larger wheel. The larger the chuck the greater potential for wheel loading. Try both ways and see what works best for you. Steve
Steve, thank you for your well thought out response. In my inexperienced opinion, your method makes more common sense. Don also removes material to balance a wheel. Some say this is not a good idea. Others say if the wheel is out of balance after truing it should be returned to the source. Just wondering your thoughts on this? Thank you, Jeff
A 46 grit ruby wheel is better but not a lot. Another problem is I am using a ko lee universal grinder which is not nearly as solid a machine as a Cincinnati No.2 grinder. I have basically ripped off. 007" so far and need probably another. 005 at least. I am sure I don't have a silica wheel. I need to get off this job as l have gun drills to run tomorrow. Thanks so much for the help.
Steve, Just watched this video and have a couple of questions: The wheel you mention is no longer in the Radiac Catalog? the second question is do you balance your wheels before use. Thanks for the great videos
Hi Steve, I found that out a few months after doing the video. I am still trying to find one that works as well. I only balance my super abrasive wheels (diamond and CBN). Steve
Steve - I have no coolant and a smaller 6" magnet. I have a wheel that is 7"x1/4" ....... and is otherwise exactly like the one you pulled out of your drawer there. It's a por os way wheel from radiac. Is the 1/4 inch wheel too small to flatten my magnet?
Hi Bobby. The wheel I use for the chuck is a Radiac 50A 46.2 J VL2 white aluminum oxide. The Por os wheels did not work as well for me. Without coolant it will be hard to get a real flat chuck, the wheel being 1/4 may help in this case. If you have staight coolant try bushing it on the chuck before each pass like you see in some of our videos. It will help reduce the heat and keep the wheel from loading up to fast. Steve
You can do that but it will not compensate for the very slight teeter that you get moving the table from right to left. You have a lot of weight to one side when the table is at the end of the travel in both directions. The goal is getting flat parts. I can have the table measure flat with different methods and still get parts that are a tenth or 2 out. That is why I check the magnet based on how flat a large part checks out on the granite surface plate. Steve
Hey Steve! The 1/2 HP 1725 RPM motor on my benchtop surface/universal grinder just died. It seems to me that a variable speed motor might be a useful upgrade as long as I'm changing it. Would you agree? The existing configuration has a two step v belt pulley without much difference between the two sizes. I'm thinking a small 3 phase with a (relatively cheap) low power VFD might be good to have, but I don't actually have much grinding experience. Like tens of hours on this inherited machine. What do you think? Worth the extra work to set up or just slap a comparable replacement on there and be done?
Did the old motor do a good job for you? Were you getting the finish you wanted and able to hold the sizes you were shooting for? If yes I would go 3 phase with the VFD. You will be amazed at how much difference 3 phase will make. If your finish and size holding suffered the 3 phase would do little to improve this. Steve
Solid Rock Machine Shop Inc. Sometimes, but I think my skills are more to blame than the machine when it doesn't. Especially using the wrong wheel. I finally got a couple decent wheels, then discovered the motor is bad. Most that came with it are narrow and fine and meant for tool sharpening. Maybe I'll just hook up something I have on hand and get a better feel for the condition with the right wheels before going further. That is a good point.
As you work across the table, how much is worn off the diameter of the wheel? Enough to put a taper across the surface? At these tolerances, it wouldn't take much.
I always redress the wheel for the last .001" or less and even if you have a little wear on the cutting edge there still is a lot of flat surface on the wheel so that it is not an issue. Steve
Hi Max, I can't think of anytime that I ever ground a part with the magnetic chuck in residual mode. I have a variable magnet and use that mode for a light magnetic hold. I would think that the residual would still pull the poles together and not alter your grind. The thing that I would be careful about is I don't know how long the residual magnetism would last, or if it gets weaker with time. If the residual would let go after some time it could be dangerous. With a light variable magnetic hold it remains constant until you turn it off. I manly use residual to add or remove some parts without losing the hold on others that are on the chuck. An example would be redressing the wheel before a part is done. I would turn the switch to residual, clean the chuck where I was going to place the diamond dresser and then turn the magnet back on. I reverse the process when removing the diamond dresser. I hope I understood your question correctly, if not, let me know if I missed your point. Thanks for commenting Steve
I've used residual a little for thin parts.. but not enough to know how it reacts and to what degree in measurement variation from the full "on" mode of the magnet. Food for thought... thanks Steve. Max
Another trick to help the wheel last longer is after you dress take a norbid stick and break the leading edge with a small radius. Wheel will not load up as fast.
Hi Steve, on the head creep, can you go past your desired height and then crank the head back up and eliminate the settling or will it still settle? I'm very new to trying to work to millionths.
Hi carlquib, I have never tried that so I can't give you honest answer. So far I have had very good results sneaking up on the desired dimensions staying a .0001" away and blank passing knowing it will settle. The nice thing with the digital reading in .00005" resolution you can see it. Thanks for commenting. Steve
I love it. I work on many different high end 6*18 grinders and would rate the one I have right up there with them. I have an Acer Knee mill too and it is one of the best I ever worked with and I worked many of the high end mills too. A few of my subscribers have an Acer grinder as well and tell me they love it.
@@SolidRockMachineShopInc Just wanted to give my feedback on the Acer grinder. Decided to get one. I've had various surface grinders in the past. Have a few now (Okamoto, Jung, B&S, and Acer). Acer is ok for the price. It's not as good as Okamoto and definitely not as good as Mitsui. But it's also very inexpensive. It produces a pretty good surface finish, and grinds fairly smoothly. There are a few things that I dislike, however. First, for reasons that I haven't yet figured out, it will not grind well after startup; have to redress the wheel, then all is well. Possibly that the wheel gets jarred on startup, and needs to be redressed. Second, it's way too sensitive to unbalanced wheels. I would say that it's essentially unusable for surface grinding if the wheel is not balanced pretty well. And the balancing stand and spindle that come with the grinder are worthless. And last, the table is too light, and doesn't provide sufficient vibration dampening. It's so light, that the traverse handle will move the table to rotate into a downward position (so that the handle is at the bottom of the turn). That said, it's about 1/2 the price of Okamoto. So for the money, it's ok.
What wheel grit would you recommend if coolant wasn’t an option? Can you use water as coolant or does it need oil water base coolant for grinding the chuck?
Hi James, I use a Radiac white Aluminum oxide 46J wheel for chuck grinding. If dry grinding I might try the ruby 46H porous wheel you see in our videos. Using plain water is not a good idea as it will seep into places and cause rust buildup that will create a lot of problems in the future. I use Cimcool cimperail 1070. Steve
Solid Rock Machine Shop Inc. understood! We have a porous pink wheel not sure if it ruby. I heard to come across on the stone wheel with the diamond fast to create more pockets in the wheel to reduce heat. Do you also come across it 1/4, 1/2 or full wheel width when bringing it across?
Pink and Ruby are higher quality Aluminum Oxide wheels with different characteristics. The sharper grain cuts cooler. The pink may be better than the Ruby. Ruby works nice on harder steel. The idea is to cut while generating less heat as possible. Steve
Had you thought about controlling the temp of the coolant bath? If you did what temperature would you like ? Room temp maybe or a little lower? Had not even thought about this before. Splitting hairs, everything matters.
The coolant is lower to the ground than the point of contact of the grinding wheel to the part. Heat rises so the coolant would be a little cooler at that level. I prefer it to be as close as possible to room temperature which we maintain at 68 Degrees. To do very high precision grinding (size) you need to control the heat variables as much as possible. Steve
@@SolidRockMachineShopInc Thanks, Not sure elevation is much of a factor, your system is closed loop so the mixing of the tank with new warmed coolant from the action will slowly raise it up. A larger thermal mass [ larger tank ] might be the trick. probably doesn't matter with other variables with more impact. Interesting to split hairs. Measuring the temp of tank with a thermocouple or RTD might be interesting to see if it changes over time when you are running it. Could reduce the volume of tank and see if that changes. I saw Lipton watches temp of spindle assembly and lets it stabilize before running. What about monitoring the part temp vs water? T/c and adhesive tape be easy setup to rule it out or in
@@johnm840 I already hold tolerances less than 50 millionths in 5". Not sure putting a lot of effort in coolant temperature control is worth the effort, expense and time. Steve
@@SolidRockMachineShopInc Not worth it, agree 100%. as you have said everything matters, so it leads down these Rabbit Holes. I'm going to measure Part Temp change next time I Grind a part. I'll let you know, with data on test. I just do tool bits etc for the most part, nothing super fancy.
Hi Steve. I have been taught by a toolmaker there is an extra step in this procedure. First remove the chuck and grind flat the table where the chuck sits. Than turn the chuck upside down lay it on the table, activate the magnet and grind flat the bottom of the chuck. Than comes your steps. What do you think about this extra mile? Kindly Radu
Hi Radu, This has already been done months earlier as well as grinding the bottom of the chuck which is important too. You only need to do this step the first time, or if you get a build up problem between this surface and the bottom of the chuck. It is easy to tell if you have the build up problem without removing the chuck. If there is a build up problem your chuck will not stay true for very long after grinding it. I had one grinder that I could true up the chuck and the next day it would be out. The build up problem was obvious after removing the chuck. I see the build up problem often with synthetic and semi-synthetic coolants. I have never experience this with water soluble oil coolant. That doesn't mean that it can't happen with water soluble oil coolants but I never experience it. A chuck will experience wear if it is stoned improperly or by removing parts improperly. When this happens you only need to true up the top of the chuck without the other steps. The best stones to use are the ones we did previous videos on. Thanks for commenting, I am glad you brought this up, it is an important point that I missed in the video. Steve
Yes, I forgot to mention the long procedure has to be done when replacing the chuck or when the rust gets underneath. Also Tom Lipton mention about FrogLube CLP Paste putting it in between the chuck and the table with grate results. Thank you your replay. Radu
Yes, I forgot to mention that. Also Tom Lipton in one of his episodes uses FrogLube CLP under the milling chuck for rust prevention. I guess will work under the grinder chuck too. Thank you for your replay and teachings. You guys do a grate job. Radu
Hi Radu, I think I watch that episode from Tom Lipton. I never put anything between the resting pad and the chuck. So far I haven't experience any problems. I don't want anything in between that has the potential to affect the chuck accuracy. If the lube goes bad that can lead to bacterial growth under the chuck as well and cause problems. Thanks for commenting,you bring up very good points. Steve
Hi Chuck, Thanks for subscribing. We subscribed to your channel as well. I have seen a few of your videos already and will work my way through more as time permits. Steve
grinding a magnet is not really 'grinding" more like dusting since you remove less than a .001 a few thenths at a time if you could slow the spindle better yet, otherwise use the smallest wheel less heat the better 46 grit I orJ hardness works good.
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This is the article from American Machinist that talks about the health issues of coolant. www.americanmachinist.com/features/what-do-you-want-your-coolant-do
Thanks for posting this info on the coolant.
First off thank you for the time and quality you and your family put into these videos. I realize this is an old post, but I'm hoping it might still get a response. As a hobbyist and rookie to grinding what wheel might be appropriate for surfacing a small mag chuck if NO coolant was available. Only hoping to achieve "reasonable tolerances" nothing like what you are producing!
I would go with a 46H porous wheel. Normally I would not use porous wheels on the mag but heat is going to be your greatest enemy here so the porous wheel will help a lot with that. Light cuts no more than .0003" and redress after 2 passes (.0006"). Finish cuts no more than .0001" and blank passes.
Great "old school" knowledge. Been in the trade for 30 years and we didn't have RUclips to look things up. If you didn't learned tricks from the people around you, you learned the hard way- like wheels loading up, heat, and tilting a rectangle part for less surface contact per pass. You rock, Solid rock!
Thanks John.
Steve
Finally someone that grinds the chuck the right way! I've cringed watching some of these other guys do it. I even saw one guy taking a .001 pass for his final grind! You must be a moldmaker, that is how I was taught when I was a apprentice. I remember some guys using crisco but I never had any luck with that. Coolant is definitely the way to go, I use the cool mist because my grinder doesn't have coolant on it and it seems to work well. Hats off to you Sir, love the channel!
Hi Jerod,
Most of my career has been as a toolroom toolmaker in a deep draw stamping shop. Also, I worked in gauge and fixture shops.
Steve
Love the channel, Steve
Excellent Steve. Well thought out and easy to follow. I need to do this very thing, and you have given me something to make me less dangerous.
_Dan_
Hi Dan,
Thanks. Let me know how your magnetic chuck turns out.
Steve
Thanks Steve. If you get bored maybe help us out with identifying a grinding wheel where the paper label has vanished 👍
Steve you are full of very handy trick! I take note for my shop... offsetting the rail out of the magnetic chuck make so much sense! I will follow your lead on this one... and this right angle jig grinder attachment too I never felt the B&S grinding attachment was making any sense you really want to fluid motion of the X axis parallel to the spindle axis. Thanks to share all theses great tips!
Thanks Simon,
You are very observant! I don't recall saying why I offset the rail on the magnet or why it is short. I get the best of both worlds this way. I can use the back rail with a 90 degree angle plate to line things up off the rail even in the center of the magnet. Yet, I can put things that have to go past the rail on the magnet without removing it. I think I missed what you where saying but you are right about that too. Look at ruclips.net/video/Ftu2BosKNyk/видео.html at the 32:30 mark to see what I first thought you were talking about.
Steve
Good info thanks Steve.
Thanks Hill Top.
Very good video, guys!
Thanks Bob.
So that’s how I do it, thanks for sharing 👌
You're welcome.
Great video. We have been using speed controls on our surface grinders for over 15 years. You don't need coolant to grind a chuck. I would hate to grind without one now. In fact, if I had to grind often, and I do, I would pay for it myself. They are only about $300.
Hi Scott,
I have never used one but everyone who comments on them seem to like them a lot.
Steve
Great vid.
Thanks.
Steve
Thanks for the insight. The troubles I am having are : I was using a 7" 60 grit ceramic wheel, grinding a fine pole magnetic chuck made in China, the poles are separated by aluminium strips and the wheel as you might guess is loading up badly with aluminum, I am dry grinding, and lastly this chuck is out a ton it's probably going to take
.005" - .010" just to clean it up. I am thinking of face milling a skim pass just to strengthen it up some. I think I am going go with a coarser wheel first as you suggested. It was loading bad just talking .0005" .
You might have better luck with a green silicon carbide wheel.
Steve
Looking through your videos and you got some good information👍. I'm getting a grinder and could use all the information I can get. I know very little about it.. I subscribed, thanks for the videos
Hi Steve,
Grinding seems to be what many of our subscribers want to know most about so we do a lot of grinding content. Feel free to ask anything and if I have experience in that area I will be happy to share what works for me. Grinding is about controlling as many of the variables as you can. Wheel selection and wheel dressing in my opinion are the 2 main variables to control. Keeping things clean on the chuck and surface plate are very important as well. One of the first things you should get are the precision ground toolroom stones that Robin Rensitti did a video on ruclips.net/video/DVLXsq7pi9Y/видео.html These stones are worth there weight in gold when it comes to keeping your magnetic chuck at peak condition. I hope you enjoy the videos and thank for subscribing. I subscribed to your channel a few weeks ago and enjoy the content you are producing.
Steve
Solid Rock Machine Shop Inc. Well thank you, I thought I had seen your channel icon before and heard your name.👍 Great to find your channel, thanks for the videos
I already have a set of Robin R stones 👌. They changed the way I think about stoning. They are amazing.
Another informative video, thanks. I will hopefully see you at the bash this year. I would love to ask you about how your surface grinder is working out for you. I am in the market for one and am torn between the ACER and the ACRA.
We are looking forward to seeing you at the bash too. I have never used an ACRA before but I love the ACER we have.
Steve
Steve, when getting a new (used) machine that includes a chuck, should you true to bottom of the chuck as a matter of course? I have heard that it is best practice.
I always do. I also grind the the table surface that the chuck gets fastened to.
Steve
I’m so happy I stumbled across this vid, it all makes sense now, everything I was doing wrong you pointed out! I have an old PM 618 I’m adding coolant to it, what coolant do you use? I prefer not to have to get suited up every time I going to grind something, I’m guessing water based? Thanks
I use this coolant www.mscdirect.com/product/details/05930052 Make sure you use steam distilled water with it and you will not have to worry about it going sour.
Steve
What would be the advantage of a 1 inch wide wheel over a 1/2 wide wheel and what thickness do you recommend for general grinding on the surface grinder?
I am learning and loving every minute of it, Thank You for sharing
Hi imystery man,
The advantage of a 1" wheel over a half " wheel would be double the cutting surface. If you were just flat grinding and coming all the way off a part then your wheel would last longer between dressing assuming you have the right wheel for the job. Another advantage would be if the 1" wheel was recessed for the hub nut then you could grind up to shoulders on tall parts without hitting the hub nut. The disadvantage would be a a little more heat build up if you are not careful. On larger grinders 1" and 2" wheels have more rigidity. On grinders with 8" and less wheels I prefer 1/2" thick for general grinding.
Steve
Hi steve
It sure is nice having someone who KNOWS what they are doing, make a video about grinding the magnet. If I might ask, what is your feelings about a hydraulic grinder?
Hi imystery man,
At my full time job we have 2 large hydraulic grinders and they work great. We use them mainly for top and bottom flat grinding where the wheel comes all the way off the part. grinding slots or steps where there is shoulder work is scary on a hydraulic grinder.
Steve
wish you'd leave the sound on - there's probably something to learn by that too. for those who can't stand it they can mute. Great Vid!
Hi Bobby,
In our newer videos we do most of the time.
Steve
great video Steve, thanks for making it. I'm with you on mag on when grinding, yet the Eclipse chuck people advise mag off. Now I'm really confused! I just added coolant to my Jones &Shipman 540 and looking forward to dusting the chuck again.
Question for you. Do you filter the coolant and/or have a magnet in the tank? Seems like that may help keep the coolant cleaner and increase its life. Thoughts? Thanks.
Hi Charlie,
I use a sock filter for the coolant. we did a video on it here ruclips.net/video/yK3hWNYs6gI/видео.html
I am not familiar with Eclipse chucks but I was always taught to grind the chuck with full magnet on and it always worked for me and others I know. You can see the accuracy I achieve in my videos and this only happens with a true chuck. Try it both ways and see if you can tell a difference and go with what works best.
Steve
Solid Rock Machine Shop Inc. Thanks for the reply. Classic Bozo RUclips miscue for me. I saw your coolant video just after I posted my question! Will watch it next. Thanks
Here I am, trying to locate the manual for my DoAll, I seem to remember reading doing the preliminary grinding with the mag chuck off, finish grinding mag chuck on. Now I'm really confused, and I can't find the book right now. I think my furred herd hid it on me. I was paying more attention to that book than I was to the state of their feeder. I'll find it in plenty of time, I'm not going to try anything with the chuck until I need too ...
Found it. Power off grinding was for the underside of the chuck, when you are installing it. Once the chuck is in position, aligned and secured, the chuck top surface is ground flat under full mag power.
Even back then, they were speaking of the hazards of certain coolants. They are rather adamant about avoiding (cheap) synthetics and the potential dangers of old (bacteria laden) coolants to your skin, keeping yourself and what you wear in the shop clean, and not deliberately or unintentionally fouling your coolant (spitting, cigarette waste, food particles ... yeah I guess some guys were expected to each their lunches at the machines ...). Almost enough to frighten one away.
I guess I need to figure out what today's equivalent of "Kleen-Cool" is. Seems there was a system for dispensing coolant to the side of the wheel and allowing it to be pulled through by centrifugal force to help the cooling and to help keep the wheel from loading up. Maybe it wasn't all it was cracked up to be, I don't see any newer machines repeating that system. I'll research that later, after I get some new wheels, some other tooling, and solve my power dilemma.
Sounds like you are on the right tract. The coolant we are using works great for us. Using true distilled water is key to keeping it from going sour. I have never seen coolant last this long without going sour.
Steve
Looking forward to your next videos!!!! :)
Enjoyed this one.. I need to grind my chuck for the first time
You ever use SG wheels- seeded gel? thought on them ?
Hi D K,
I have never tried the Norton SG wheels, but the Radiac ceramic Aluminum Oxide mix combined with open structure wheels are awesome. Ceramic wheels like to be aggressive and are good at removing a lot of stock fast and they grind cool in harder steels. Some times the finish may not be as good but I am talking very little difference if used right.
Steve
Thanks Steve, Tell your boys they are doing great and to pick up all they can from Pops.. :)
Wheel load up "the wheel is what we call loaded"
There are so many opinions that differ in this area of precision.
I respect Solid Rock Machine and Don Bailey at Suburban tool.
Both say to use an H wheel. Steve says to use a full 8" wheel and Don says to use a very worn 7" wheel.
Both opinions are to reduce heat.
CONFUSING to a hobby guy with a B&S 618 Micromaster and a nice mag chuck.
Hi Jeff,
I believe Don uses the smaller wheel to reduce surface feet per minute and therefore reduce heat. If you have a variable speed spindle you can control the SFM with a bigger wheel and negate this issue. I do not have a variable speed spindle but still prefer the larger wheel. The reason is that I have a larger circumference which gives much more cutting edges. The smaller wheel will load up much faster than the larger wheel. Once the wheel starts loading you will have metal to metal rubbing (Loaded wheel metal particles and the chuck). In my experience that produces more heat than the greater SFM of a larger wheel. The larger the chuck the greater potential for wheel loading. Try both ways and see what works best for you.
Steve
Steve, thank you for your well thought out response. In my inexperienced opinion, your method makes more common sense.
Don also removes material to balance a wheel. Some say this is not a good idea. Others say if the wheel is out of balance after truing it should be returned to the source.
Just wondering your thoughts on this?
Thank you,
Jeff
A 46 grit ruby wheel is better but not a lot. Another problem is I am using a ko lee universal grinder which is not nearly as solid a machine as a Cincinnati No.2 grinder. I have basically ripped off. 007" so far and need probably another. 005 at least. I am sure I don't have a silica wheel. I need to get off this job as l have gun drills to run tomorrow. Thanks so much for the help.
You are welcome.
Steve
Steve, Just watched this video and have a couple of questions: The wheel you mention is no longer in the Radiac Catalog? the second question is do you balance your wheels before use. Thanks for the great videos
Hi Steve,
I found that out a few months after doing the video. I am still trying to find one that works as well. I only balance my super abrasive wheels (diamond and CBN).
Steve
@@SolidRockMachineShopInc Thanks Steve i'll
Steve - I have no coolant and a smaller 6" magnet. I have a wheel that is 7"x1/4" ....... and is otherwise exactly like the one you pulled out of your drawer there. It's a por os way wheel from radiac. Is the 1/4 inch wheel too small to flatten my magnet?
Hi Bobby.
The wheel I use for the chuck is a Radiac 50A 46.2 J VL2 white aluminum oxide. The Por os wheels did not work as well for me. Without coolant it will be hard to get a real flat chuck, the wheel being 1/4 may help in this case. If you have staight coolant try bushing it on the chuck before each pass like you see in some of our videos. It will help reduce the heat and keep the wheel from loading up to fast.
Steve
Thoughts on setting an indicator on a piece of nonmagnetic material base, like brass, and running an indicator across the surface this way?
You can do that but it will not compensate for the very slight teeter that you get moving the table from right to left. You have a lot of weight to one side when the table is at the end of the travel in both directions. The goal is getting flat parts. I can have the table measure flat with different methods and still get parts that are a tenth or 2 out. That is why I check the magnet based on how flat a large part checks out on the granite surface plate.
Steve
@@SolidRockMachineShopInc What a perfect and timely answer. Thanks!
Hey Steve! The 1/2 HP 1725 RPM motor on my benchtop surface/universal grinder just died. It seems to me that a variable speed motor might be a useful upgrade as long as I'm changing it. Would you agree? The existing configuration has a two step v belt pulley without much difference between the two sizes. I'm thinking a small 3 phase with a (relatively cheap) low power VFD might be good to have, but I don't actually have much grinding experience. Like tens of hours on this inherited machine. What do you think? Worth the extra work to set up or just slap a comparable replacement on there and be done?
Did the old motor do a good job for you? Were you getting the finish you wanted and able to hold the sizes you were shooting for? If yes I would go 3 phase with the VFD. You will be amazed at how much difference 3 phase will make. If your finish and size holding suffered the 3 phase would do little to improve this.
Steve
Solid Rock Machine Shop Inc. Sometimes, but I think my skills are more to blame than the machine when it doesn't. Especially using the wrong wheel. I finally got a couple decent wheels, then discovered the motor is bad. Most that came with it are narrow and fine and meant for tool sharpening.
Maybe I'll just hook up something I have on hand and get a better feel for the condition with the right wheels before going further. That is a good point.
As you work across the table, how much is worn off the diameter of the wheel? Enough to put a taper across the surface?
At these tolerances, it wouldn't take much.
I always redress the wheel for the last .001" or less and even if you have a little wear on the cutting edge there still is a lot of flat surface on the wheel so that it is not an issue.
Steve
If you are going to use the magnet in a residual condition do you re-dress it with the magnet "half on"?
Hi Max,
I can't think of anytime that I ever ground a part with the magnetic chuck in residual mode. I have a variable magnet and use that mode for a light magnetic hold. I would think that the residual would still pull the poles together and not alter your grind. The thing that I would be careful about is I don't know how long the residual magnetism would last, or if it gets weaker with time. If the residual would let go after some time it could be dangerous. With a light variable magnetic hold it remains constant until you turn it off. I manly use residual to add or remove some parts without losing the hold on others that are on the chuck. An example would be redressing the wheel before a part is done. I would turn the switch to residual, clean the chuck where I was going to place the diamond dresser and then turn the magnet back on. I reverse the process when removing the diamond dresser. I hope I understood your question correctly, if not, let me know if I missed your point. Thanks for commenting
Steve
I've used residual a little for thin parts.. but not enough to know how it reacts and to what degree in measurement variation from the full "on" mode of the magnet. Food for thought... thanks Steve.
Max
Another trick to help the wheel last longer is after you dress take a norbid stick and break the leading edge with a small radius. Wheel will not load up as fast.
Thanks for the tip David.
Hi Steve, on the head creep, can you go past your desired height and then crank the head back up and eliminate the settling or will it still settle? I'm very new to trying to work to millionths.
Hi carlquib,
I have never tried that so I can't give you honest answer. So far I have had very good results sneaking up on the desired dimensions staying a .0001" away and blank passing knowing it will settle. The nice thing with the digital reading in .00005" resolution you can see it. Thanks for commenting.
Steve
I'm considering getting an Acer Supra 618. How do you like your grinder?
I love it. I work on many different high end 6*18 grinders and would rate the one I have right up there with them. I have an Acer Knee mill too and it is one of the best I ever worked with and I worked many of the high end mills too. A few of my subscribers have an Acer grinder as well and tell me they love it.
@@SolidRockMachineShopInc Just wanted to give my feedback on the Acer grinder. Decided to get one. I've had various surface grinders in the past. Have a few now (Okamoto, Jung, B&S, and Acer). Acer is ok for the price. It's not as good as Okamoto and definitely not as good as Mitsui. But it's also very inexpensive. It produces a pretty good surface finish, and grinds fairly smoothly. There are a few things that I dislike, however. First, for reasons that I haven't yet figured out, it will not grind well after startup; have to redress the wheel, then all is well. Possibly that the wheel gets jarred on startup, and needs to be redressed. Second, it's way too sensitive to unbalanced wheels. I would say that it's essentially unusable for surface grinding if the wheel is not balanced pretty well. And the balancing stand and spindle that come with the grinder are worthless. And last, the table is too light, and doesn't provide sufficient vibration dampening. It's so light, that the traverse handle will move the table to rotate into a downward position (so that the handle is at the bottom of the turn). That said, it's about 1/2 the price of Okamoto. So for the money, it's ok.
What wheel grit would you recommend if coolant wasn’t an option? Can you use water as coolant or does it need oil water base coolant for grinding the chuck?
Hi James,
I use a Radiac white Aluminum oxide 46J wheel for chuck grinding. If dry grinding I might try the ruby 46H porous wheel you see in our videos. Using plain water is not a good idea as it will seep into places and cause rust buildup that will create a lot of problems in the future. I use Cimcool cimperail 1070.
Steve
Solid Rock Machine Shop Inc. understood! We have a porous pink wheel not sure if it ruby. I heard to come across on the stone wheel with the diamond fast to create more pockets in the wheel to reduce heat. Do you also come across it 1/4, 1/2 or full wheel width when bringing it across?
Pink and Ruby are higher quality Aluminum Oxide wheels with different characteristics. The sharper grain cuts cooler. The pink may be better than the Ruby. Ruby works nice on harder steel. The idea is to cut while generating less heat as possible.
Steve
Had you thought about controlling the temp of the coolant bath? If you did what temperature would you like ? Room temp maybe or a little lower?
Had not even thought about this before. Splitting hairs, everything matters.
The coolant is lower to the ground than the point of contact of the grinding wheel to the part. Heat rises so the coolant would be a little cooler at that level. I prefer it to be as close as possible to room temperature which we maintain at 68 Degrees. To do very high precision grinding (size) you need to control the heat variables as much as possible.
Steve
@@SolidRockMachineShopInc Thanks, Not sure elevation is much of a factor, your system is closed loop so the mixing of the tank with new warmed coolant from the action will slowly raise it up. A larger thermal mass [ larger tank ] might be the trick. probably doesn't matter with other variables with more impact. Interesting to split hairs.
Measuring the temp of tank with a thermocouple or RTD might be interesting to see if it changes over time when you are running it. Could reduce the volume of tank and see if that changes.
I saw Lipton watches temp of spindle assembly and lets it stabilize before running. What about monitoring the part temp vs water? T/c and adhesive tape be easy setup to rule it out or in
@@johnm840 I already hold tolerances less than 50 millionths in 5". Not sure putting a lot of effort in coolant temperature control is worth the effort, expense and time.
Steve
@@SolidRockMachineShopInc Not worth it, agree 100%. as you have said everything matters, so it leads down these Rabbit Holes.
I'm going to measure Part Temp change next time I Grind a part. I'll let you know, with data on test. I just do tool bits etc for the most part, nothing super fancy.
@@johnm840 Sounds good.
Hi Steve. I have been taught by a toolmaker there is an extra step in this procedure. First remove the chuck and grind flat the table where the chuck sits. Than turn the chuck upside down lay it on the table, activate the magnet and grind flat the bottom of the chuck. Than comes your steps. What do you think about this extra mile?
Kindly Radu
Hi Radu,
This has already been done months earlier as well as grinding the bottom of the chuck which is important too. You only need to do this step the first time, or if you get a build up problem between this surface and the bottom of the chuck. It is easy to tell if you have the build up problem without removing the chuck. If there is a build up problem your chuck will not stay true for very long after grinding it. I had one grinder that I could true up the chuck and the next day it would be out. The build up problem was obvious after removing the chuck. I see the build up problem often with synthetic and semi-synthetic coolants. I have never experience this with water soluble oil coolant. That doesn't mean that it can't happen with water soluble oil coolants but I never experience it. A chuck will experience wear if it is stoned improperly or by removing parts improperly. When this happens you only need to true up the top of the chuck without the other steps. The best stones to use are the ones we did previous videos on. Thanks for commenting, I am glad you brought this up, it is an important point that I missed in the video.
Steve
Yes, I forgot to mention the long procedure has to be done when replacing the chuck or when the rust gets underneath. Also Tom Lipton mention about FrogLube CLP Paste putting it in between the chuck and the table with grate results.
Thank you your replay.
Radu
Yes, I forgot to mention that. Also Tom Lipton in one of his episodes uses FrogLube CLP under the milling chuck for rust prevention. I guess will work under the grinder chuck too.
Thank you for your replay and teachings. You guys do a grate job.
Radu
Hi Radu,
I think I watch that episode from Tom Lipton. I never put anything between the resting pad and the chuck. So far I haven't experience any problems. I don't want anything in between that has the potential to affect the chuck accuracy. If the lube goes bad that can lead to bacterial growth under the chuck as well and cause problems. Thanks for commenting,you bring up very good points.
Steve
Well I have a heated floor, then what?
Same thing.
Enjoyed...just hit the sub button
Hi Chuck,
Thanks for subscribing. We subscribed to your channel as well. I have seen a few of your videos already and will work my way through more as time permits.
Steve
I'm the professional grinding expert..
grinding a magnet is not really 'grinding" more like dusting since you remove less than a .001 a few thenths at a time if you could slow the spindle better yet, otherwise use the smallest wheel less heat the better 46 grit I orJ hardness works good.
Hi sam,
Thanks for commenting
Steve
I can't hear shit
I wouldn't want to hear that ether.
Steve