I would say kick pitching isn't necessarily a fundamental concept for EDM, but something to keep in mind. Let's say you like the transient and overall character of a kick, but for some reason the tone is a bit off with the mix - I 100% agree with Mau5 here - cut the lows, but use a spectrum analyzer to identify what the new fundamental pitch of the kick is. After the lows get cut, there's typically a secondary fundamental pitch that represents the tone of the kick... usually in the 80-170Hz range (unless you're using some really clicks kicks, then they go higher). Adjust that new fundamental frequency so that it fits better with the key of your track. Typically I gravitate toward the root note or the 5th, depending on which one is closer to the original pitch of the kick. But... when it comes down to it... use your EARS. My tip is more a quick rule of thumb for finding something that will PROBABLY sound good to your ear.
@@TheOfficalAndI If you’re talking about messing with the sound of the transient of the kick there are plenty of things you can do. You could use a pitch envelope in a sampler so the sample starts at the original pitch and modulates the pitch for the tail of the kick. You could use something like Ableton’s frequency shifter which will affect the low frequencies a lot more than the high frequencies. You could layer a transient of a kick with the tail of a kick so you can transpose the tail without affecting the transient. You could synthesize a kick so you have complete control over the tuning of the tail. Whether you should worry about it or not depends on the style of kick, in my opinion. But if you do want to, there’s plenty ways of tuning a kick so it still sounds good.
@@DarkMetaOFFICIAL they're called mid basses, because they don't sound melodic and pretty, you wouldn't use a mid range bass patch to play some top melodies, but I get what you mean, I have a personal distaste for those kinds of sounds but they're talked in that sense for a reason, they're mid range that would match or even contain in the patch a sub bass
I can't speak for anyone else, but for me: tuning the kick isn't about "making it a note in the key", tuning is just another tool (and usually the first) along with eq, compression, envelope editing, whatever. It's about getting that thump to climb in bed with the bass, all grease and punch, no friction or dissonance... unless friction and dissonance is what the track wants, but as much as I love a little rub I don't usually want any in the bottom 2 octaves, too messy.
@@no-name168 a big part of making drums sit well in the mix is tuning them. Pitching them slightly up or down. People do this with real drum sets. Forcing yourself to fix everything later in the mix down when you could just do it properly early on is just making things more difficult for yourself. There are things that eq and compression can’t fix
To me, deadmau5 always comes off as someone who would rather be contrarian than informative. Adjusting the pitch of a kick is as good a tool as any other when it comes to dailing in the sound you are going for.
@@sanjacobs6261 In other words, tuning it until It sounds good. Maybe that happens to be the root or the fifth. Maybe not. There's two things to consider. First, there's a given range where the kick will do it's job. Too high it won't push any air and too low it will be undefined and lack punch. The other thing to consider is the actual pitch of the kick and how it relates to the key of the song. Longer kicks end up sounding cluttered if they hit certain notes that doesn't work with the bass. So usually one must compromise. Tweak and listen. The tuning knob of a kick drum is far more important than an eq for shaping the sound in my opinion. That's why I think blanket statements such as "don't tune your kick" can be misleading. I think "don't obsess about your kick drum always being in key with the rest of the track" would be more helpful advice.
@@nicedevices So with a short kick, that sweeps and ends too fast to be tonal, you'd agree that tuning doesn't really apply, but pitching it to taste still makes sense?
Facts. What I will say though, and this applies especially for heavier genres like dubstep, is try tuning your snares as long as they have a lot of mid meat. Do it by ear. May find it sounds better with the original fundamental but often times you may find another pitch that sounds better. Sometimes that may end up being the key of the track or 7semitones up/5 down and sometimes is none of those but its 100% worth playing around with. The problem with tuning your kicks, unless you are making them from scratch (witch is a lot of fun to do btw) is when you start repitching them more than 1 or 2 semitones they can start to sound hella wonky, especially when pitching down bc you lose all the high end, one of the most important ranges for a good punch. Not to mention that transient gets stretched out. As long as you kick and sub aren’t fighting you should be good even if your kick is in a different key
I have to disagree because context/genre matters. One reason that the Roland tr-808 caught drum machine on after its initial commercial failure is this: performers realized they could use the kick as the bass with a simple circuit bend/mod to extend the decay. Stylistically speaking, that tradition of using a kick as a bass or bass as a kick functionally works to great musical effect if done right. But I can respect that Joel personally doesn't like that tradition. Such a technique wouldn't work in most rock band contexts. I just hope people can see the difference.
i love layering my kicks like this: one with a huge hpf, just for the attack and “click” one with emphasis on this higher-low range and “umph” of the sound a sub bass sound with short or long decay (depending on genre), sidechained to the “umph” kick, and with no or very little attack
He is right. You dont have to tune your kicks. Just find the one kick that sticks nice with the bass. That being said - sometimes you can tune your kick to make it sound even better coupled with the bass. So the best part about music making is that there is no pattern. No general rule. Just because Deadmou5 says you shouldnt do it- doesn't mean you shouldnt. But also it doesnt mean you should do it either.
For more normal house and big room yes your kick is just a transient and you use sub bass after it. In the harder styles of EDM like Hardstyle, Hardcore and Uptempo a kick fills up the whole spectrum and is tuned to fit with the melody. Because of the shit ton of eq and distortion the punchy part of the kick mostly has no key but the tail does and based on the tail a kick has a note.
Nice one. True wisdom is straightforward, easy to understand, though sometimes counter intuitive. The caveat to this is you might get a kick and bass that are a semitone apart and become dissonant, in which case change one or the other. I'm off to shorten my kicks...
Hes correct about the presets. I bought some from loop masters and when I played them back they where WAY too hot. Had so do significant adjustments. Then I bought some from G-Sonique. And they where perfect.
''kick is a transient thing'' I can't believe he said that... kick carries low freq, the biggest and most important part of the mix, running your low end with the key of the song will ''glue'' things and sometimes even bypassing the need of compressors (kick+bass)
The same advice I keep hearing from established producers is always “space” aspiring producers always crowd everything into a track and the beat gets lost in noise. Noah shebib said once “space is an instrument” shit changed my life
There’s an octave of space between the fundamental of a bass and the first overtone so, theoretically, you can put a kick pitched between a perfect fourth and perfect fifth above the bass and need minimal if any EQ to separate them in that lowest part of their range. You can hear this in action for Eilish “Bad Guy”. I know I’m swimming against the stream here but I’m technically not wrong. It’ll work best in techno where there are no chord changes. Another trick is like Dan Worrall said: if you layer two sines together a perfect fifth apart (a power chord) just right, you can create the psychoacoustic impression of a fundamental an octave down. I think serum or Zebra lets you remove the fundamental harmonic from your sound. Obviously possible with additive synthesis.
I agree but only to the extent where it shall be applied to specific genres. In the case of a lot of tech house tracks, the kicks are meant to have a tune/sub to them along with an additional bass that’s playing. The kicks range from 1/4 of a beat to 1/2 of a beat and contain tonality. I agree with him for the type of house he makes and other genres that require a non-tonal kick that is more of a “knock.”
you don’t need to tune your kick to match with the bass. you need to tune your bass to match the kick! and it doesn’t need to be the same note.. but should be in the harmonic circle. you also can use long kicks (in modern techno) but in edm you should really use short kicks because they steal bass frequencies in your track causing to lose the focus of all bass and lead synths.
Nothing wrong with tuning your kick if it has some sustain in it. If your song tempo is slow (100bpm or lower) an 8th note will have noticeable sustain and it might be worth tuning your kick. I agree if your track is 175bpm DnB, then yeah, no need to tune.
Tbh I don't like this mindset of "you're not making music correctly" No they are just not making music that you enjoy or in your style. People need to stop trying to gatekeep/fault people for doing stuff their own way.
Making beatless carpets of analogue sequences, asking myself if i want to incorporate some kick into it: yeah here this also makes sence! Oh, and I think I spotted an Analogue Solutions Colossus behind him. Yeah, that's insanity!
I agree with him to a degree. But I personally think his songs kicks are bit to quiet for my taste. Hip hop kicks are always a bit too loud but I like to make the kick present but not overpowering usually
There are so many, what I like to call, "RUclips Producers," who are trying to build audiences around bullshit "tips and tricks" or "secrets that will make producers hate me if I told you". All of the shit those people perpetuate is INCREDIBLY simple concepts labelled as "game changing secrets" that a lot of the time, make VERY LITTLE DIFFERENCE. Deadmau5 is right here, as percussion (most of the time) doesn't need to be tuned precisely, unless it's like more tonal percussion with a very clear underlying frequency (toms, some more tonal snares, obviously mallet instruments and stuff like that). Kicks, you could argue, have a tonal presence, but my rule is typically, if you can hear the bass from your kick drum and it's more than just a little quarter of a second-ish bump, then your kick's bass tail is too long. There can be times when you may want to have a bassy kick with a pronounced tail, but it shouldn't really ever be the focus of the song. Have your kick contain some more of a non-sub frequency timbre if you want your kick to stand out a bit more with it's tail, and then add a mono sub bass underneath to support the song. The job of the kick shouldn't really ever be to support your song with its bass, but rather, it's job should perpetuate rhythm and support the song as more of a transient element (as Deadmau5 stated) adding a punch to bass notes and strengthening the energy in the song. With that being said, you can still tune your kick's bass, even if it's really short. It can sometimes make mixing easier and composition sound better. There really isn't a rule to it. You just gotta know when something sounds good and if it doesn't sound good, how to make it sound good, and tuning your kick might play a part in that. Also realize, tuning your kick doesn't always mean tuning it to tonic. You don't want to be separating the bass of the kick from the rest of it too much by tuning it like 6 semitones down to be the tonic. You especially don't want to do that with the entire kick, as you're going to be muddying up stuff and ruining your transient by pitching the higher frequencies down too. Tune it to like, the 5th or something if the tonic is too far away, or even just for effect.
I was gonna talk about Phase issues and How a kick is not just a transient, it's a pitch drop of a sine wave... But EDM is different. 808s in trap music are also pitch drops so if you use the wrong kick with the 808 bassline, they can phase. But for EDM, if you're not side chaining, the kick and the sub bass won't clash (in most cases) because the sub bass is not a pitch drop, it's a stable pitch. I do agree with shorter kicks as well because of the space it gives, a few EDM producers agree on this actually.
I'd rather say tunning kicks is not mandatory but sometimes a good option for whenever you have like a -1/+1 semitone kick-tale that doesn't cut through the mix, especially with the bass going on.
Iv always felt like this tune your kick advice was weird. Think it comes from tuned 808’s in hip hop. Doesn’t work in busier mixes because you’d want your kick to be separated sonically a bit, since it is percussive.
I get what he is saying and it totally makes sense but wasn't the Roland TR-808 kick drum sustained and pitched to different notes notably in 80s-90s hip hop and in the Miami Bass scene? I may be ignorant here and I'm totally ok with being corrected. I even bought an old Alesis SR-16 and I noticed it has several preset kick drums with a sustained "BOOM" in the lower frequencies obviously trying to emulate the 808.
You’ve always gotta tune your kicks. Even when you are recording an acoustic kit playing rock and roll. You’ve still gotta tune your kick drum to sound right with the song.
Yep, he was trolling there about that it’s overrated info for people that don’t know how to produce/engineer yet. He then after tells you what to learn first 😂
I was gonna comment something about Hardstyle kicks, now some kid is gonna go make a hardstyle track and wonder why it sounds funky especially at the climax/melody part lol
The kicks nowadays sucks from most producers by the way. Also musically a lot of the new releases suck enormously. It doesn't matter, Hardstyle always comes in almighty power after few seasons.
Mcnasty what's crazy is that you have so much high frequencies on your mic. Can you please make it sound less "narrow"? Bring up the bass in your voice bro, it's really not that pleasant listening to you on podcasts, it's as if you care a little too much about EQing your mic, it's just overcooked, brother. Oh and thanks for the funny content, even tho it's braindead memes nowadays (comparing to old siege vids) it still brings a laugh and makes eating and working more interesting. Oh yeah and nice latest release, the track is booooming. Are you producing just yourself or you have a group of sound engineers to help ya? Any way - respect on making sound 💪
@@technober > Kick is another wordt for BASSdrum Yes > they need to be tuned to fit. No, watch the video > Kick needs to be in tune with root or 5th. No, watch the video > Kicks are typically falling down in pitch too but where the end is the part which needs to be in tune.. No, watch the video
and hes completely wrong, a kick has plenty of sub bass, if its out of harmony you will get phasing issues and it will make the speakers work harder / meaning you wilil lack in loudness. deadmaus is simply arrogant and wrong
Guys like deadmau5 are my heroes. In a sea of endless pro tips and tutorials out there on how to make “the perfect” track, it’s refreshing to have someone filter out the bullshit which there is a LOT of out there.
It's always a treat to listen to learned masters muse about their craft. You can hear that the reason he's so critical and harsh, is because he genuinely cares to make the music as good as it can be.
like you could say one music-related word to him like "tell me about sampling", and he could go off for hours on all of his opinions on that thing, and it's so great because he really loves it
I was never into edm (still am not, generally), until my jazz pianist father of all people showed me "FML" in 2009 or 10, and we were both fascinated by it. From there I started watching Joel produce all night in the summer of 2012, and got super into his musical style and approach. Finally got to see him at red rocks in late 2019 and now my life is complete.
Technically, according to the Fletcher Munson curve, the louder the music the better, b/c you can differentiate the frequency bands more easily. However, the producer should not decide on the volume their work is heard at and when the listener turns the volume down to the same volume as a well produced track, it will sound worse in comparison
@@LennartIbanez Most of the time in Gabber and Hardstyle, kicks and bass are one and the same. Much more so in Gabber, where hardstyle has this hybrid weird kick with a long bassy tail that is usually what's pitched but still part of the kick
It honestly depends. I’ve been a Hiphop producer for over 20 years and there are times where tuning a kick is actually better for the beat. Not so much for being in tune with the instruments but just fitting better with the track. Not all kicks are short 1/8 note hits from a real kit and they don’t all always have the same exact fundamental frequency and thus can benefit from a pitch adjustment when necessary. It’s not always needed on every track but it helps when it helps. Waves makes a newer plugin called Torque that helps with this during post processing.
I think Deadmau5 was talking specifically about the common EDM tip that "you should always tune your kick to fit in key with track". So i think your mindset is pretty similar.
IDEK bro like, I don’t mean to be an ass but like how can you call yourself a rock producer if you don’t know how to tune a drum kit with a drum key, that’s like basic basic basic fundamentals
@@akasickform Right, the guy has been fooling millions for the last 13 years, just became a millionaire out of nowhere. No reason, nope, has a ton of synths and kits, no reason. Ignorance sure is bliss, hatred sure is blinding.
@@akasickform yeah you’re right, you definitely know more than him and have spent many many more hours learning how to mix and compose I’m sure which is why youre just a bitch boi commenter on youtube and he’s a multimillionaire with billions of plays across all platforms
actually this was the best advice that I ever learned about music production. it was always a mystery for me cause other "tutorials" always told me about how I should empathize low end, but the truth was, killing unnecessary low end was the solution. I'm making songs that I always wanted now thanks to Joel
Also, if your kick is clashing with your bass... try some sidechain. Not all sidechain has to be melodic-dubstep-pulsing, you can have your sidechain set up so it's dropping the bass by 30% when the kick hits or something.
@@SolStateMusicAs in look at the waveform of a track and try and find a kick played by itself at any moment? I imagine that’s the only way to take a look at the kick an artist used’s waveform. If the kick isn’t solo’d, you’ll just see summed signal.
An 808 typically makes the bassline, that part you pitch, and you layer a kick with it. That way the kick doesn't change pitch and stays consistent. And cutting off the transient of the 808 is a good idea, too. You're welcome, champ.
@@Garrym3k That is actually quite rare in Miami bass or in 80s electro or freestyle. More often than not an 808 (sometimes a long one too)is the kick and a 303 or a Juno is the bass line.
@@ChristianBurrola the thing is the 303 wasn't used for full on bass and tended to be something that sat just above it - like a rhythm guitar line. turning up the resonance to get the acid sound generally cut out the bass, but this was okay because the 808 kick filled it out. Generally i do prefer to use "bass for bass" but there's no point invalidating this way of doing things just because it's an older way of doing it with the they had at the time
@@ChristianBurrola That! And often the 808 was the kick AND the bass at the same time. In Miami Bass and other music as well in the 80s. I’m okay with people using the term 808 for sub because nowadays that’s how most people use it but when people don’t even know that the 808 is actually a kick/been used and refered to as a kick for years/ considered and labeled as a kick by Roland... then maybe they should explore the concept a bit more...to say the least 🤪
I have like literally 2 dozen kick samples that I have saved & use and that's it. That is more than enough to take 2-3 kicks from each time for layering & tuning to each other other to make one decent enough kick. If you've got a sampler, a few kicks can be combined in almost an infinite amount of ways to create new kicks every time. It's funny that people will buy a sample pack with over a thousand kicks, yet you only hear a handful of kicks throughout electronic music.
Eh, both Secrets of Dance Music Production and Mixing Secrets for the Small Studio to do it. Armin, Above & Beyond, Darude, Dieselboy, and many more have all said to do it. The only time I wouldn’t tune a kick is if the key of the kick is in the scale of the song.
It's so interesting hearing this from him, Steve Duda said in an interview that he gave deadmau5 the same advice early in his career. Here's the video: ruclips.net/video/BjvrHOARC00/видео.html
Even more so, I've noticed that tuning a kick to a note that rubs against the key makes it sound more bold and can have a really cool effect when you use it sparingly
It depends a little on the kick, but I quickly stopped worrying about tuning and filtering harmonically on most drums, I listen for this stuff, but most of the time it's really not bad, and better to listen for the character of the sound at it's pitch instead. Even for open hats and synths that have things like osc sync going on etc., some weird frequencies aren't necessarily bad if they're not too loud. Listen to an e-piano, some bit-crushed sounds and prepared pianos etc., it can be quite messy and atonal, but that's where the character comes from. You can get away with more on transients, and by having various weird frequencies that draw attention away from each other, none of them loud, in my experience.
I believe the tuning your kick in EDM came from the Big Room House era, where the kick was the bass. This also applies to Trap / EDM where the 808 is the kick.
For what it's worth, I agree with this!
People are WAY too concerned with the pitch of short dance music kicks.
I would say kick pitching isn't necessarily a fundamental concept for EDM, but something to keep in mind. Let's say you like the transient and overall character of a kick, but for some reason the tone is a bit off with the mix - I 100% agree with Mau5 here - cut the lows, but use a spectrum analyzer to identify what the new fundamental pitch of the kick is. After the lows get cut, there's typically a secondary fundamental pitch that represents the tone of the kick... usually in the 80-170Hz range (unless you're using some really clicks kicks, then they go higher).
Adjust that new fundamental frequency so that it fits better with the key of your track. Typically I gravitate toward the root note or the 5th, depending on which one is closer to the original pitch of the kick. But... when it comes down to it... use your EARS. My tip is more a quick rule of thumb for finding something that will PROBABLY sound good to your ear.
I’d say just make sure the boom of your kick goes below the most of your bass notes
I mean you can't just pitch kick samples around either, then they really will sound bad.
@@TheOfficalAndI If you’re talking about messing with the sound of the transient of the kick there are plenty of things you can do.
You could use a pitch envelope in a sampler so the sample starts at the original pitch and modulates the pitch for the tail of the kick. You could use something like Ableton’s frequency shifter which will affect the low frequencies a lot more than the high frequencies. You could layer a transient of a kick with the tail of a kick so you can transpose the tail without affecting the transient. You could synthesize a kick so you have complete control over the tuning of the tail.
Whether you should worry about it or not depends on the style of kick, in my opinion. But if you do want to, there’s plenty ways of tuning a kick so it still sounds good.
If you use typical Electro House kick, short ones - sure, but not 808-ish or Big Room kicks
Kicks makes Kicks, Bass makes Bass, use Kicks for Kicks, use Bass for Bass haha
no dude, when i hear HEY THIS NEW DUBSTEP BASS and it's literally just screeching mids and highs.. "BASS" 😂😂LMAO
@@DarkMetaOFFICIAL you just refer to it like that in dubstep.
I bet the guy who showed you the bAsS has way more sound design skills than you tho
@@nebroskitheraut6705 you have literally nothing to base that on but ok lol
@@nebroskitheraut6705 no. i'm not talking about referring to it. i mean literal mid range. no bass. you don't read what i said.
@@DarkMetaOFFICIAL they're called mid basses, because they don't sound melodic and pretty, you wouldn't use a mid range bass patch to play some top melodies, but I get what you mean, I have a personal distaste for those kinds of sounds but they're talked in that sense for a reason, they're mid range that would match or even contain in the patch a sub bass
I can't speak for anyone else, but for me: tuning the kick isn't about "making it a note in the key", tuning is just another tool (and usually the first) along with eq, compression, envelope editing, whatever. It's about getting that thump to climb in bed with the bass, all grease and punch, no friction or dissonance... unless friction and dissonance is what the track wants, but as much as I love a little rub I don't usually want any in the bottom 2 octaves, too messy.
Kush has spoken
THANK YOU!!! This is a way more accurate way to describe it.
Great explanation, thanks for sharing!
So well said tho...lol u really described what u were trying to say perfectly I must say
@@no-name168 a big part of making drums sit well in the mix is tuning them. Pitching them slightly up or down. People do this with real drum sets. Forcing yourself to fix everything later in the mix down when you could just do it properly early on is just making things more difficult for yourself. There are things that eq and compression can’t fix
This is pure gold. Anyone at this level sharing their knowledge just as if you were sitting in the studio with them is a true gift. Thank you!
Thank you! I'm also very grateful the best producers in the world are sharing their tips!
To me, deadmau5 always comes off as someone who would rather be contrarian than informative. Adjusting the pitch of a kick is as good a tool as any other when it comes to dailing in the sound you are going for.
@@nicedevices What do you mean by "dialing in the sound you're going for"? What sound do you get from a 'tuned' kick vs an 'out-of-tune' kick?
@@sanjacobs6261 In other words, tuning it until It sounds good. Maybe that happens to be the root or the fifth. Maybe not. There's two things to consider. First, there's a given range where the kick will do it's job. Too high it won't push any air and too low it will be undefined and lack punch. The other thing to consider is the actual pitch of the kick and how it relates to the key of the song. Longer kicks end up sounding cluttered if they hit certain notes that doesn't work with the bass. So usually one must compromise. Tweak and listen. The tuning knob of a kick drum is far more important than an eq for shaping the sound in my opinion. That's why I think blanket statements such as "don't tune your kick" can be misleading. I think "don't obsess about your kick drum always being in key with the rest of the track" would be more helpful advice.
@@nicedevices So with a short kick, that sweeps and ends too fast to be tonal, you'd agree that tuning doesn't really apply, but pitching it to taste still makes sense?
Short Kicks and Headroom, a healthy well-balanced audio diet
Gate game.
McSoft clipper
Healthy diet, rarely followed 😉
"Kicks dont make Bass"
Every Hardstyle Producer : "Hold my Sausage Fattener"
I don't even like Deadmau5, but I respect his knowledge and this is probably the best "how to make EDM kick" videos out there.
dude, adding the eq visual? you're going super saiyan 3
Facts. What I will say though, and this applies especially for heavier genres like dubstep, is try tuning your snares as long as they have a lot of mid meat. Do it by ear. May find it sounds better with the original fundamental but often times you may find another pitch that sounds better. Sometimes that may end up being the key of the track or 7semitones up/5 down and sometimes is none of those but its 100% worth playing around with. The problem with tuning your kicks, unless you are making them from scratch (witch is a lot of fun to do btw) is when you start repitching them more than 1 or 2 semitones they can start to sound hella wonky, especially when pitching down bc you lose all the high end, one of the most important ranges for a good punch. Not to mention that transient gets stretched out. As long as you kick and sub aren’t fighting you should be good even if your kick is in a different key
As an Ozone 8 user, I really appreciated that bit at the end. I came to the same conclusion too that it just sets things a bit too hot.
1:24 hardstyle has entered the chat
I have to disagree because context/genre matters.
One reason that the Roland tr-808 caught drum machine on after its initial commercial failure is this:
performers realized they could use the kick as the bass with a simple circuit bend/mod to extend the decay. Stylistically speaking, that tradition of using a kick as a bass or bass as a kick functionally works to great musical effect if done right.
But I can respect that Joel personally doesn't like that tradition. Such a technique wouldn't work in most rock band contexts. I just hope people can see the difference.
i love layering my kicks like this:
one with a huge hpf, just for the attack and “click”
one with emphasis on this higher-low range and “umph” of the sound
a sub bass sound with short or long decay (depending on genre), sidechained to the “umph” kick, and with no or very little attack
Agreed, I prefer kicks under 800ms. When I used longer kicks I found it had phase issues more often.
He is right. You dont have to tune your kicks. Just find the one kick that sticks nice with the bass.
That being said - sometimes you can tune your kick to make it sound even better coupled with the bass.
So the best part about music making is that there is no pattern. No general rule.
Just because Deadmou5 says you shouldnt do it- doesn't mean you shouldnt. But also it doesnt mean you should do it either.
For more normal house and big room yes your kick is just a transient and you use sub bass after it. In the harder styles of EDM like Hardstyle, Hardcore and Uptempo a kick fills up the whole spectrum and is tuned to fit with the melody.
Because of the shit ton of eq and distortion the punchy part of the kick mostly has no key but the tail does and based on the tail a kick has a note.
Just cause you call it a kick doesn't mean it's not actually a bassline
@@Swyyrl Kickdrum maybe suits the definition more. A full beat long.
Nice one. True wisdom is straightforward, easy to understand, though sometimes counter intuitive.
The caveat to this is you might get a kick and bass that are a semitone apart and become dissonant, in which case change one or the other.
I'm off to shorten my kicks...
Hes correct about the presets. I bought some from loop masters and when I played them back they where WAY too hot. Had so do significant adjustments. Then I bought some from G-Sonique. And they where perfect.
''kick is a transient thing'' I can't believe he said that... kick carries low freq, the biggest and most important part of the mix, running your low end with the key of the song will ''glue'' things and sometimes even bypassing the need of compressors (kick+bass)
The same advice I keep hearing from established producers is always “space” aspiring producers always crowd everything into a track and the beat gets lost in noise. Noah shebib said once “space is an instrument” shit changed my life
"You basically have to write your Track around a kickdrum [...]" Oh my god he just invented Techno 😁
I know I literally died and said “uh I do this every time I make techno!”🤣
I feel they make it that way on purpose, that way you have to actually adjust and do work with ozone.
Great tips and video
There’s an octave of space between the fundamental of a bass and the first overtone so, theoretically, you can put a kick pitched between a perfect fourth and perfect fifth above the bass and need minimal if any EQ to separate them in that lowest part of their range. You can hear this in action for Eilish “Bad Guy”. I know I’m swimming against the stream here but I’m technically not wrong. It’ll work best in techno where there are no chord changes.
Another trick is like Dan Worrall said: if you layer two sines together a perfect fifth apart (a power chord) just right, you can create the psychoacoustic impression of a fundamental an octave down. I think serum or Zebra lets you remove the fundamental harmonic from your sound. Obviously possible with additive synthesis.
martin garrix disliked dis video
😂😂
Totally agree I tell this to all my producer friends, it’s a separate entity from the melody it’s to help keep the melody
I agree but only to the extent where it shall be applied to specific genres. In the case of a lot of tech house tracks, the kicks are meant to have a tune/sub to them along with an additional bass that’s playing. The kicks range from 1/4 of a beat to 1/2 of a beat and contain tonality. I agree with him for the type of house he makes and other genres that require a non-tonal kick that is more of a “knock.”
I actually tried these tips out and it feels way better to listen to
I have next to no idea what he is talking about but feel even more intimidated thinking about music production now and wanting to try
you don’t need to tune your kick to match with the bass. you need to tune your bass to match the kick! and it doesn’t need to be the same note.. but should be in the harmonic circle.
you also can use long kicks (in modern techno) but in edm you should really use short kicks because they steal bass frequencies in your track causing to lose the focus of all bass and lead synths.
3:01 "I did play with O-zone"
My brain: Ah, yes, he played with the "Numa Numa Ei" guys
>sells music production course:
"Don't use presets"
- Explains clearly that they use presets on mastering plugins
What makes Deadmau5 sound full to me is his usage of spaces in his arrangements.
Tuning your kick makes it blend in and saves a lot of EQ job, but yeah... don't do it, don't do yourself a favor! 😂
TR909 kick is in a D ..so i use a tempo to suit that ..not always though ..match your tempo to frequency ..teach them the calculation Joel.
Nothing wrong with tuning your kick if it has some sustain in it. If your song tempo is slow (100bpm or lower) an 8th note will have noticeable sustain and it might be worth tuning your kick. I agree if your track is 175bpm DnB, then yeah, no need to tune.
Sure - I don't Joel's he's saying never tune, I think this is mainly a reaction to the "always tune your kick" religion
He always teaches us so much. Where are these streams?
Deadmau5 streams on Twitch!
@@SolStateMusic What's twitch? I'll ook into that!
I tune the kick only if I put a second kick, for calibrate their resonance. Despite that, I totally agree
Tbh I don't like this mindset of "you're not making music correctly"
No they are just not making music that you enjoy or in your style.
People need to stop trying to gatekeep/fault people for doing stuff their own way.
Making beatless carpets of analogue sequences, asking myself if i want to incorporate some kick into it: yeah here this also makes sence!
Oh, and I think I spotted an Analogue Solutions Colossus behind him. Yeah, that's insanity!
You did! Just a casual 30k synth, no big deal
I agree with him to a degree. But I personally think his songs kicks are bit to quiet for my taste. Hip hop kicks are always a bit too loud but I like to make the kick present but not overpowering usually
Use your fades after getting them down to those eighth notes. That’s where the magic is also use ghost kicks 4/4 and sidechain them.
For sure on those 1/8 notes fades, i will edit better next time
That's a pretty smart rant. Bass = bass, kick = kick
If you're gonna rant, might as well make it smart!
This is amazing. Legit goat
There are so many, what I like to call, "RUclips Producers," who are trying to build audiences around bullshit "tips and tricks" or "secrets that will make producers hate me if I told you". All of the shit those people perpetuate is INCREDIBLY simple concepts labelled as "game changing secrets" that a lot of the time, make VERY LITTLE DIFFERENCE. Deadmau5 is right here, as percussion (most of the time) doesn't need to be tuned precisely, unless it's like more tonal percussion with a very clear underlying frequency (toms, some more tonal snares, obviously mallet instruments and stuff like that). Kicks, you could argue, have a tonal presence, but my rule is typically, if you can hear the bass from your kick drum and it's more than just a little quarter of a second-ish bump, then your kick's bass tail is too long. There can be times when you may want to have a bassy kick with a pronounced tail, but it shouldn't really ever be the focus of the song. Have your kick contain some more of a non-sub frequency timbre if you want your kick to stand out a bit more with it's tail, and then add a mono sub bass underneath to support the song. The job of the kick shouldn't really ever be to support your song with its bass, but rather, it's job should perpetuate rhythm and support the song as more of a transient element (as Deadmau5 stated) adding a punch to bass notes and strengthening the energy in the song.
With that being said, you can still tune your kick's bass, even if it's really short. It can sometimes make mixing easier and composition sound better. There really isn't a rule to it. You just gotta know when something sounds good and if it doesn't sound good, how to make it sound good, and tuning your kick might play a part in that. Also realize, tuning your kick doesn't always mean tuning it to tonic. You don't want to be separating the bass of the kick from the rest of it too much by tuning it like 6 semitones down to be the tonic. You especially don't want to do that with the entire kick, as you're going to be muddying up stuff and ruining your transient by pitching the higher frequencies down too. Tune it to like, the 5th or something if the tonic is too far away, or even just for effect.
i listen to speedcore and hardstyle and heavy kicks are a genre staple
I was gonna talk about Phase issues and How a kick is not just a transient, it's a pitch drop of a sine wave... But EDM is different.
808s in trap music are also pitch drops so if you use the wrong kick with the 808 bassline, they can phase. But for EDM, if you're not side chaining, the kick and the sub bass won't clash (in most cases) because the sub bass is not a pitch drop, it's a stable pitch. I do agree with shorter kicks as well because of the space it gives, a few EDM producers agree on this actually.
I remember (or at least think I do) when a kick, and push, then coast... was enough! But we mighta just been skatin' on the beats then!??!;-)
This is only partly right, kicks do create bass if they are longer.
This does only work when you are using short kicks, which do not have a long tail.
I'd rather say tunning kicks is not mandatory but sometimes a good option for whenever you have like a -1/+1 semitone kick-tale that doesn't cut through the mix, especially with the bass going on.
Yes, totally CAN help, but not a MUST
Damn seems like a really down to earth dude would love to meet him and talk music 🤔
@ 00:59 he turns into President 46, "You know the thing"
thank god you had a short kick on that outro
watching this like I know anything about the subject: "yeah totally agree, %100"
Big room, hardstyle, hardcore and crossbreed would like to have a word with you
You can tell he’s been doing this shit for a long fucking time. He knows all the nuances of it
As a fan of hardstyle and hardcore, I gotta say
this is like pro tips over pro tips 😀
Hah thank you!
Iv always felt like this tune your kick advice was weird. Think it comes from tuned 808’s in hip hop. Doesn’t work in busier mixes because you’d want your kick to be separated sonically a bit, since it is percussive.
I get what he is saying and it totally makes sense but wasn't the Roland TR-808 kick drum sustained and pitched to different notes notably in 80s-90s hip hop and in the Miami Bass scene? I may be ignorant here and I'm totally ok with being corrected. I even bought an old Alesis SR-16 and I noticed it has several preset kick drums with a sustained "BOOM" in the lower frequencies obviously trying to emulate the 808.
You don't need to tune your kicks, but it can help sometimes, it really depends on what you want to go for.
Prodigy tuned their kicks on Music for the Jilted Generation, and it's one of the best sounding records of all time.
liam howlett makes the best beats without a doubt. they guy's on another level totally to everybody else.
better music lesson than i got in primary school
yeah plus when i try tuning my kick it always lose quality
It depends from the song... if you make a song with just kicks (smile), so no music but only kicks, then it's best to tune the kicks... Lol
2 years later i realise that I can make the subs louder by just eqing the sub up
Today I learnt edm musicians actually know what the fuck they’re doing
You’ve always gotta tune your kicks. Even when you are recording an acoustic kit playing rock and roll. You’ve still gotta tune your kick drum to sound right with the song.
Yep, he was trolling there about that it’s overrated info for people that don’t know how to produce/engineer yet. He then after tells you what to learn first 😂
"A kick drum is not a bass line"
Hardstyle would like to have a word with you
I was gonna comment something about Hardstyle kicks, now some kid is gonna go make a hardstyle track and wonder why it sounds funky especially at the climax/melody part lol
bong bong bong bong bong
The kicks nowadays sucks from most producers by the way. Also musically a lot of the new releases suck enormously. It doesn't matter, Hardstyle always comes in almighty power after few seasons.
techno too
@@raptor.1 Why do they suck? Just getting into music production (not EDM-heavy though) and am curious to hear why you think that
I knew it!! Now I can sleep in peace
Wkkwkwk.
Sembunyikan balasan
Yep!
X2
Lah
crazy that he has a million dollar studio and uses gaming chairs lol.
Bro you are everywere
Look up the origin of his name, and then you'll get why he is using a gaming chair.;))
It's just an educated guess, though.
Crazy that he has every single eurorack module ever made, but I never see a single patchcable in or around his system
@@gherat used to watch him stream before twitch was a thing, and lemme tell ya, he would spend hours and hours just fucking around with the patches
Mcnasty what's crazy is that you have so much high frequencies on your mic. Can you please make it sound less "narrow"? Bring up the bass in your voice bro, it's really not that pleasant listening to you on podcasts, it's as if you care a little too much about EQing your mic, it's just overcooked, brother.
Oh and thanks for the funny content, even tho it's braindead memes nowadays (comparing to old siege vids) it still brings a laugh and makes eating and working more interesting.
Oh yeah and nice latest release, the track is booooming. Are you producing just yourself or you have a group of sound engineers to help ya? Any way - respect on making sound 💪
"Kicks make kicks. Bass makes bass. Use bass for bass."
- Deadmau5
I think that is a Commandment, isn't it?
@@technober > Kick is another wordt for BASSdrum
Yes
> they need to be tuned to fit.
No, watch the video
> Kick needs to be in tune with root or 5th.
No, watch the video
> Kicks are typically falling down in pitch too but where the end is the part which needs to be in tune..
No, watch the video
This is why he ends up making generic soulless music
and hes completely wrong, a kick has plenty of sub bass, if its out of harmony you will get phasing issues and it will make the speakers work harder / meaning you wilil lack in loudness. deadmaus is simply arrogant and wrong
Unless it's "Autonomous" by Billain. He gets a free pass.
Legendary song artist with constant mic clipping is my new favorite combination
ahaha - or is that combo the ultimate troll?
He's so annoyed he forgot to put a limiter on
@@aMolleTargate Depends on where in the chain the clipping is happening.
Needs a d esser
Big deal, i can still understand what he’s saying. Its just a talk back
Guys like deadmau5 are my heroes. In a sea of endless pro tips and tutorials out there on how to make “the perfect” track, it’s refreshing to have someone filter out the bullshit which there is a LOT of out there.
80% of "pro tips" I've seen recently are people who definitely aren't pro.
@@JimboCruntz that's a big fact.
Heroes save people.
@@hearmenow909 He saves you a lot of time
@@JimboCruntz100% agree! And that’s where all the “pro tips” come from… amateurs lmfao Pros don’t call them pro tips, they just treat it as info
These edits are god-tier
Thanks, just trying to be helpful!
@@SolStateMusic We appreciate it greatly. Thank you for taking the time.
AGREED. Thank you for the efforts!
Me, too lazy to tune my kicks: Heck yeah Joel spitting facts!
Oooh you have the old pfp again!
Why the hell would you want to tune your kick to a note? I dont get this at all
@@Multi-Waves_Music it’s new😭
@@Inflake what?! I thought this was the old one
Dammit.
Well I like it!
@@notoriusdrifter40 you tune your kicks to avoid dissonance in your basslines. Some people like that sounds but it'll ruin your bass tone
It's always a treat to listen to learned masters muse about their craft.
You can hear that the reason he's so critical and harsh, is because he genuinely cares to make the music as good as it can be.
like you could say one music-related word to him like "tell me about sampling", and he could go off for hours on all of his opinions on that thing, and it's so great because he really loves it
Not my kind of music at all, but I've always admired his stance on the loudness war and dynamics.
I was really into him at one point, not so much these days but I’ll always appreciate his knowledge and talent.
He’s a major dude
I was never into edm (still am not, generally), until my jazz pianist father of all people showed me "FML" in 2009 or 10, and we were both fascinated by it. From there I started watching Joel produce all night in the summer of 2012, and got super into his musical style and approach. Finally got to see him at red rocks in late 2019 and now my life is complete.
Lots of talented producers who make absolutely awful music out there and douchemouse is one of em
Technically, according to the Fletcher Munson curve, the louder the music the better, b/c you can differentiate the frequency bands more easily. However, the producer should not decide on the volume their work is heard at and when the listener turns the volume down to the same volume as a well produced track, it will sound worse in comparison
@@fungdark8270 i always thought he was a B major guy
" The kick is too much "
" Don't pitch your kicks "
*_laughs in hardstyle and gabber_*
That's a bass
@@LennartIbanez Most of the time in Gabber and Hardstyle, kicks and bass are one and the same. Much more so in Gabber, where hardstyle has this hybrid weird kick with a long bassy tail that is usually what's pitched but still part of the kick
"the kick is too much"
Uptempo: hold my beer, joint, and xtc
Hardstyle laugh: Bwoo-ar bwoo-ar bwoo-ar
Both of them sucks imo
Just kidding, i love Hardstyle ❤️
"A kick drum is not a bassline"
Extratone artists: "hold my beer"
Hold my speed
@@kalliboymusic unironically like this ruclips.net/video/KFQKjGP4iv4/видео.html
@@coocoo3336 it’s diabhara, of course you like it, system failure is another amazing song by him
I can't believe people love treating kick drums and bass instruments like the same thing just because they emit a similar audio frequency.
@@TheHippyHoppyHippo there is an entire genre around it
This is why I love deadmau5, he has so much knowledge about sound. And you can definitely hear that in his music.
Always remember: Real kicks have curves!!!
Always remember: Real kicks are cylindrical and need tuning on both sides.
@@DankoHidalgo Based
@@DankoHidalgo real kick is hitting someone with your foot to cause injury or pain.
It honestly depends. I’ve been a Hiphop producer for over 20 years and there are times where tuning a kick is actually better for the beat. Not so much for being in tune with the instruments but just fitting better with the track. Not all kicks are short 1/8 note hits from a real kit and they don’t all always have the same exact fundamental frequency and thus can benefit from a pitch adjustment when necessary. It’s not always needed on every track but it helps when it helps. Waves makes a newer plugin called Torque that helps with this during post processing.
I think Deadmau5 was talking specifically about the common EDM tip that "you should always tune your kick to fit in key with track". So i think your mindset is pretty similar.
*laughs in rock producer*
IDEK should be physically tuning the kit to the key of the track if you’re in rock
@@Viper-dz2kw wait thats a thing?
IDEK bro like, I don’t mean to be an ass but like how can you call yourself a rock producer if you don’t know how to tune a drum kit with a drum key, that’s like basic basic basic fundamentals
"USE BASS FOR BASS", this must be sampled and used before a drop
Zomg drops all day drop drop drop drop drop drop another drop drop drop drops on drops
Brother I'm pretty sure that was on "BassKillaz 4000 Volume 31" back in about '95 or '96!
omg yes
corny
Even 10 years ago, this still would have been cringe.
when you've had 17 coffees and a line of coke
ahahaah
Imagine thinking that there is no need to tune kicks and pretending to understand how frequencies work then selling an entire course around this
@@akasickform Right, the guy has been fooling millions for the last 13 years, just became a millionaire out of nowhere. No reason, nope, has a ton of synths and kits, no reason. Ignorance sure is bliss, hatred sure is blinding.
@@akasickform yeah you’re right, you definitely know more than him and have spent many many more hours learning how to mix and compose I’m sure which is why youre just a bitch boi commenter on youtube and he’s a multimillionaire with billions of plays across all platforms
I’ve never liked long kicks, short ones that are clean and cut through a mix are infinitely better.
Ok,, the man himself had ton Of experience on producing,, sitting infront of Dolby and PMC system (very expensive custom made) he can't go wrong
Do i understand any of this ? No
Is this helpful in anyway of my daily life or future life ? No
Am i enjoying this Video ? Absolutely
actually this was the best advice that I ever learned about music production. it was always a mystery for me cause other "tutorials" always told me about how I should empathize low end, but the truth was, killing unnecessary low end was the solution. I'm making songs that I always wanted now thanks to Joel
Also, if your kick is clashing with your bass... try some sidechain. Not all sidechain has to be melodic-dubstep-pulsing, you can have your sidechain set up so it's dropping the bass by 30% when the kick hits or something.
Hardstyle is one of the few genres where it makes sense to tune your kick.
Kick TAIL
When we talk about Hardstyle I would say punch is the kick and tail is the bass. Hardstyle kick is very unique thing and should have it's own naming.
go off please
@@GatosMedia coming up with name that make sense is hard:)
@@GatosMedia What about Tuning Bass?
I synthesized my first kicks this week and I was so certain I had made them too short but this makes me feel a lot better about that lol.
Reference tracks can help you check too
Depends on the genre
@@SolStateMusicAs in look at the waveform of a track and try and find a kick played by itself at any moment? I imagine that’s the only way to take a look at the kick an artist used’s waveform. If the kick isn’t solo’d, you’ll just see summed signal.
"You can't use a kick drum for your bass"
The classic TR808/TR303 combo has entered the chat
hhaa you win
Deadmau5: a kick can be a fundamental but that very seldomly works
Roland TR-808: Am I a joke to you?
haha love it!
An 808 typically makes the bassline, that part you pitch, and you layer a kick with it. That way the kick doesn't change pitch and stays consistent. And cutting off the transient of the 808 is a good idea, too. You're welcome, champ.
@@Garrym3k That is actually quite rare in Miami bass or in 80s electro or freestyle. More often than not an 808 (sometimes a long one too)is the kick and a 303 or a Juno is the bass line.
@@ChristianBurrola the thing is the 303 wasn't used for full on bass and tended to be something that sat just above it - like a rhythm guitar line. turning up the resonance to get the acid sound generally cut out the bass, but this was okay because the 808 kick filled it out.
Generally i do prefer to use "bass for bass" but there's no point invalidating this way of doing things just because it's an older way of doing it with the they had at the time
@@ChristianBurrola That! And often the 808 was the kick AND the bass at the same time. In Miami Bass and other music as well in the 80s. I’m okay with people using the term 808 for sub because nowadays that’s how most people use it but when people don’t even know that the 808 is actually a kick/been used and refered to as a kick for years/ considered and labeled as a kick by Roland... then maybe they should explore the concept a bit more...to say the least 🤪
1:40 the true meta of all edm pro tips
Me, using the same stock tr-707 kick for 4 years straight: *chuckles*, I'm in danger !
I have like literally 2 dozen kick samples that I have saved & use and that's it. That is more than enough to take 2-3 kicks from each time for layering & tuning to each other other to make one decent enough kick. If you've got a sampler, a few kicks can be combined in almost an infinite amount of ways to create new kicks every time. It's funny that people will buy a sample pack with over a thousand kicks, yet you only hear a handful of kicks throughout electronic music.
@@i-never-look-at-replies-lol I even use only the stock 707 Live drum rack :) or AT LEAST the microbrute 🤷♂️
707 i tend to go 909 haha
707 snare gives me life
606 has a perfect kick, it’s literally just a transient. Kinda sounds like a balloon popping. 🙃
Hey do you agree that if your kick is detuned by like 4000 semitones it won't sound good?
moral of the story: dont take tips from random ass youtube "producers". The mau5 knows the way
Frrr, its like modern day snake oil
There’s another video with Steve Duda where Deadmau5 says he tunes his kicks.
Moral of the story: there are no hard rules.
@@TjMoon91 he said in this video there are examples where you would, but in general you usually shouldn't have to.
Eh, both Secrets of Dance Music Production and Mixing Secrets for the Small Studio to do it. Armin, Above & Beyond, Darude, Dieselboy, and many more have all said to do it. The only time I wouldn’t tune a kick is if the key of the kick is in the scale of the song.
It's so interesting hearing this from him, Steve Duda said in an interview that he gave deadmau5 the same advice early in his career. Here's the video: ruclips.net/video/BjvrHOARC00/видео.html
You're a legend man! This is so good! You can literally hear Deadmau5 repeating what Duda told him, almost verbatim!
Super interesting watch
Thank you for the link you posted. Good stuff, sir.
😂 great link lol
Even more so, I've noticed that tuning a kick to a note that rubs against the key makes it sound more bold and can have a really cool effect when you use it sparingly
It depends a little on the kick, but I quickly stopped worrying about tuning and filtering harmonically on most drums, I listen for this stuff, but most of the time it's really not bad, and better to listen for the character of the sound at it's pitch instead. Even for open hats and synths that have things like osc sync going on etc., some weird frequencies aren't necessarily bad if they're not too loud. Listen to an e-piano, some bit-crushed sounds and prepared pianos etc., it can be quite messy and atonal, but that's where the character comes from. You can get away with more on transients, and by having various weird frequencies that draw attention away from each other, none of them loud, in my experience.
I believe the tuning your kick in EDM came from the Big Room House era, where the kick was the bass. This also applies to Trap / EDM where the 808 is the kick.
When I make trap I usually just use a short kick for a transient and don't worry about it being tuned.
@@unisonproto trap music has changed a lot 808s and kicks are being used together more frequently for punch you just have to duck the 808 properly
@@jayrillabeats2059 I made trap the other day and just put a slight attack on the 808. That said, even without it, it sounded fine.
@@unisonprotoyou gotta sidechain the 808 tho, if u don"t the mix is gonna get fucked up
@@obeseduck3861 Kenny Beats would like to have a word with you