Sir Roger Penrose | The Emperor’s New Mind: Consciousness & Computer (311)
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- Опубликовано: 18 окт 2024
- #TheEmporersNewMind #NobelPrize #SirRogerPenrose
On 6 October 2020 The Royal Swedish Academy of Sciences has awarded the 2020 #NobelPrize in Physics with one half to Roger Penrose and the other half jointly to Reinhard Genzel and Andrea Ghez.
I was delighted to have had this chance to discuss life, physics and everything with my friend Sir Roger Penrose, who endorsed my book Losing the Nobel Prize back in 2018. Well, now Sir Roger has WON the Nobel Prize.
We discussed the first popular science book I ever read: The Emperor's New Mind: Concerning Computers, Minds, and the Laws of Physics amzn.to/306hUG1
and
Shadows of the Mind: A Search for the Missing Science of Consciousness
amzn.to/2QFbt9M
Sir Roger Penrose OM FRS (born 8 August 1931) is an English mathematical physicist, mathematician and philosopher of science. He is Emeritus Rouse Ball Professor of Mathematics in the University of Oxford, an emeritus fellow of Wadham College, Oxford and an honorary fellow of St John's College, Cambridge.
Penrose has made contributions to the mathematical physics of general relativity and cosmology. He has received several prizes and awards, including the 1988 Wolf Prize for physics, which he shared with Stephen Hawking for the Penrose-Hawking singularity theorems.
Penrose sat down with Professor Brian Keating to discuss artificial intelligence, consciousness, cosmology, and the many fascinating developments in physics since the publication of The Emperor’s New Mind in 1989.
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Is the brain a computer? Please join my mailing list; click here 👉 briankeating.com/list 📝 to stay in touch with me and my guests
Define "computer"
You need to get Dr Robert Lanza on to discuss Biocentrism....
If the brain+body is ultimately a pattern analysis machine + reaction meat soup, then sure. It's Turing complete. All one needs is language as a framework and mathematics emerges spontaneously from those raw ingredients regardless of the inputs. (For example. Mice and Dogs can do arithmetic and geometry which reinforces a feedback loop in their own ways which seems alien to us but perfectly comfortable to them. The output and reaction only depends on the language framework and specifically, language need not be written.)
No. This reductionism conflicts with quantum biology. The quantum processes that the brain uses can not be completely understood if the brain is just a computer following an algorithm. Gödel's theorem basically points out that the structures of knowing cannot all be formalized mathematically.
Professor Jim Al-Khalil does a very good video on quantum biology: "Why Does Quantum Entanglement Defy All Logic? | Secrets Of Quantum Physics | Progress"
Progress - Technology History Documentaries
That's a good question. I'll give you 2 dollars for asking.
Does a hummingbird fly because of Boolean operations in it's neurons?
The brain can compute but is not a computer - or will we eventually map the entire brain and nervous system to equate all stimulus and response to 1s and 0s? What is the binary sequence for the color yellow and how does one bit change turn it into pain or sorrow?
Most humble, intelligent gentleman on utube.
Dear RUclips programmers: please consider a feature whereby an "Audio Only" button could be selected with its flipside being "Audio&Video" thus allowing for the saving of data transfer for people just listening. That would be a popular improvement, I think.
"saving of data transfer for people just listening"
Dude, are you living in 1876? A youtube video with audio is barely 100 mb
@@JuBerryLive yes, only judge people by your standards, excellent!
Audio only is already a feature of the RUclips app, but it is only available to RUclips subscribers.
@@JuBerryLive An hour long video at 720p is about 1 gig. Most phone plans you get 5 gigs per month. That's 5 videos, not unlike this one, per month. Audio only would use a quarter of that data. Congrats on your unlimited data though.
@@clintonpiercy6651 play at low quality u save alot of data
Simply one of the most important books I ever read.
This discussion deserves 100000+ more likes. Thank you Mr. Penrose for all the work you've done. People like you exemplify the (for lack of a better term) specialness of mankind's consciousness.
This man is a legend. Quite an admirable and agreeable man. And even if many probably say this a lot, I still want to say it. Thank you, sir for discussing these subjects so that all of us, lucky enough to live at the same time as him and his lectures (or interviews, or discussions) people can contemplate the implications of these theories.
Thankyou
Thank you for the interview Dr Keating .Sir Roger Penrose
is a living legend 😊
One of the few actual geniuses in physics. He is responsible for the modern and WAY too delayed study of consciousness, which should have started with the rest of the Scientific Revolution 500 years ago. Imagine where we'd be today. The great respect with which the rest of the physics community holds him may be the reason this field even exists at all.
There are people who read Emperor's at the time and there are other people. I was very taken with it at the time and am gratified to have lived so long knowing that consciousness is non-computable. Thanks so much for getting the interview.
You don't "know" that consciousness is non-computable. Did you actually listen to this video? Penrose literally says that we don't know for sure yet, even about whether his own theory is accurate. "I think we may see the effects in the physics experiments being now, whether we will see the quantum effects of microtubules or not, quite possible. I think some evidence for quantum coherence in biological systems might not be too long from now, but to see any direct evidence of connections of consciousness might be a long way off."
His argument for consciousness might be stronger than others, but until we can actually prove that is the case, its just a guess!
The emperor's new mind and the road to reality. I am still reading them after many many years.
Uncle Roger ! We are so very proud of him here in England !
One of the truly brilliant intellectual minds of all time. Whenever I read or watch something by Roger, I immediately escape the fantasy we live everyday and get one step closer to reality.
exactly... that was very similar to my own thoughts today lol
I love your contributions dear sir Penrose. Living in France I noticed your presence during the coronation of Charles III. Your appearance made the program worthwile assisting.
Good job, Sir Roger Penrose.
Thanks so much! *What was your favorite takeaway from this conversation?* _Please join my mailing list to get _*_FREE_*_ notes & resources from this show! Click_ 👉 briankeating.com/list
A chance to hear Roger Penrose discuss Emperor's New Mind? I must be there. I read the book in 1990 and was forever hooked on Roger's theories and ways of thinking.
DaiENgjaMoUse
Glad to see Mr Penrose in good health! He is just starting up... always exciting ideas and lucid explanations to be expected from him. I hope he keeps on and gets his books completed and published! God speed!
thanks for not interrupting him.. interviews with Krauss, Peterson and Kaku are painful to watch..
Dr. Brian Keating, many Thanks for having Sir Roger Penrose as your guest: that was a great discussion! 👍👍
Indeed, we wish he will stay with us for many more years; he's so intelligent and interesting. That man is a treasure. 🙏
He's 92! Forget the physics. How did he do that!
I’m a simple man, I see Sir Roger and I click like
I am too, I believe. If you write him to begin with seems strange, but it’s obviously wise to check your age first. It could be a welcomed surprise in the area of discovery to realize it’s not always the domain of the young.
Absolutely incredible! Bless and cheers to you Sir Roger Penrose!
A national treasure and one to be cherished as we have so few left in the UK now.
Ever more grateful to Brian for bringing to us yet once more the most delightful conversation with whom I call Saint of Science!. Every day before sleep, I look for if there is a latest talk or presentation by Sir Penrose.
He also looks remarkably healthy and full of energy. He got excited like children to visit the planetarium for Hawking points!
All prayers for his long healthy life.
Ameen!
Love Roger's grasp of scientific history
Whilst Penrose & Chomsky still draw breath I'm not giving up on immortality!! (My son lost hope when Christopher Lee popped his clogs).
Come on Attenborough - keep churning out those wildlife docos!!
Netflix or someone should turn 'the Road to Reality' into a twenty part series. It would rival 'Civilisation' and 'The Ascent of Man'. It really is a fascinating and remarkable book, and beautifully written.
I was already working full time in computer-based jobs in the 1980's, and heard a few presentations about AI at the time. Many of those presentations were very frustrating to me, but I could never come up with a good way to express why I didn't like them. I read Roger's book when it was published and felt that it did a great job of looking at all the issues in the whole field of AI and what goes on when *we* think. And there have been so many other topics where I've really enjoyed the ideas that Roger has come up with. I'll always take the time to listen to another interview with him.
His description of microtubular connections to conscious creative thought processes in conjunction with instinctive reactionary behavioural action. … Pure brilliance. 💚♾️
Too many words ...oof just too much
Another riveting discussion... Barely understand anything they talk about. But more than happy to sit & listen... Much ❤
Microtubules fit in the facilitation of left-right brain interaction aka Corpus Callosum. Yes, overall you are looking for the computational construct where symmetry helps a lot.
Michael Levin's work in regards to Penrose's theories of conscious mind.
That is something that would be nice.
Fantastic guest (goes without saying with Sir RP), brilliantly conducted interveiw as well! Well done Dr B!
I'm not afraid to admit that this is over my head, still mentally entertaining.
what a wonderful conversation. Thank you both
Good god. The Emperor's New Mind 5th decade? That really dates me. I read it when I was 19.
2023-1989=34 where is he coming up with 50 years?
@Josh Hennen 1st decade of its existence is the 80s, 2 - 90s, 3 00s, 4 10s, 5 - 20s. It's a weird way of describing it for sure
It would be so wonderful, to have a sit down and converse with Sir Roger in person..
His magic transcends and you do.
Great program ; always feel optimistic about research with such inquisitive minds at work✨ THANKS
wow, adore that guy, read 'tenm' in my teens - just after a relativity book for young-readers! and have been passionate about much related science and engineering ever since - I was thrilled when he was deservedly awarded the Nobel Prize - he's putting that money to good use :-) I'm pretty-sure he'd agree that now we understand more about physics/cosmology Hawkins (hence his family) should be posthumously honoured for HR theory? Great vid as usual and many thanks for all you do.
Roger has an outstanding intellect.
I read a bit of THE ROAD TO REALITY and it did my head in....
Agreed! I wish someday he talks about his handbook on the theory of everything that I've been trying understand for decades!😮
Get Penrose to the planetarium and film it! It would be AMAZING to see his mind at work!
11:09 / 32:30 - Gödel's incompleteness theorems
47:08 - What most captivates Roger Penrose / cosmology
If you are looking for quantum coherence, then your best bet would be ChISS
Chiral-Induced Spin Selectivity.
I am told by dr. Tour that it enables the brain to operate with 10 watts instead of 100+watts.
It enables biomolecules to react very efficiently and with minimal friction.
Just started listening and I hope he talks about the Hawking points he talked about not so long ago.
What a treat, every interview with Sir Penrose is captivating.
I always thought the Big Bang made no more sense than a bible story.
I think that the matter was not all concentrated in a small point but ''leaked'' from something or somewhere else. A bit in the same way underground caverns develop by finding the easiest way through, the way lightning spreads and forks. Patterns repeat, the water running down the drain-hurricanes-galaxies, neurons and galaxy clusters.
That's why I think the Hawking points thing may lead to something.
With roger's theory we get instead of something from nothing, an eternal something that always is and was?
@@callmedeno I believe his last talk motioned the possibility of matter coming from outside through precise points, Hawking points, that we should be able to find in very specific places through microwave radiation I believe.
So, our universe would be just one pocket, or extension of something else that would expand until everything is so far apart that nothing is visible from anywhere, and add to that that everything has either burned out by then regarding stars and gas clouds or that there is no longer enough gravity anywhere to draw anything together and every
Maybe a bunch of those pocket universes are all crammed together , like 100 balloons on a wire, all expanding, pressing against each other, and when one pops in the middle, another one takes it's place violently and suddenly when an expanded pocket/balloon reaches a certain point at the end stage of expansion, a reaction/breach causes the empty entire cold dark thinly spread universe to pour into somewhere else, again, repeating the cycle of expansion once more and on and on. There would be plenty of matter left at the end each time to repeat the cycle. I somehow now think of a comparison at the end of the expansion cycle, sucking gas from a tank through a hose by gravity, just get it started and the rest follows naturally by gravity.
I have not read Penrose's books but afaik drugs that affect microtubules polimerization (utilized sometimes in chemotherapy to block cell replication) dont affect conscience more than expected.
Unbelievable how sharp his mind is at his age. I like he is honest when talking about the different theories and the interpolations, say finesse, last polish done by mathematical equations , he calls them clever tricks I think. I seen some lectures where he absolutely outshines is colleagues, especially in a discussion with sabine hossenfelder, I have to be polite I agreed to it, say no more.
Thanks; hope to hear form you again in the next one...
Love Roger Penrose.
Can someone explain why I can't stop listening to these top scientists despite my inability to comprehend a single word of what they're saying?
Its like the finest wine. You love it even if you can't explain why.
US President , like oh 999 out of a thousand. Love me some Sir Penrose.
I would have loved to hear Rogers thoughts on the new Einstein shape, a newly discovered single piece aperiodic tile
Thank you for posting.
You're welcome
FGI, Fundamental Geometry of Information. "Reality" arises from interaction and interpretation of Information.
I like Roger Penrose and Steven Hawking even if i don't share theirs beliefs but for theirs great contribution to cosmology .
Great video Boys, one of my new Favs, Penrose is quite the gentleman. I like him. 👍. I just had a peak at Twister theory yest. Interesting. Peace ✌️
how does symmetry cohere quantum? is there a conserved quantity to symmetry in microtubules that coheres quantum?
can symmetry in microtubules provide extra dimension for quantum coherence?
Yess
every thing is entangled so the time we match the small and the big then you guys will make sense.
time moves downward (acceleration) as space expands outward?
A Genius and a humble giant.
Imagine the earth approaching- expanding at 16 feet per second per second constant acceleration- the released object: gravity. Too simple for the modern brain. “The truth seldom convinces the opponent, it merely outlives them.” Max Planck. “The Final Theory: Rethinking Our Scientific Legacy “, Mark McCutcheon.
what a great talk, i hope he gets to see the projection thingy they were talking about at the end, sounds quite pretty
Thank you very much for the podcast.
Have a great day both of you
what is reason that more than computation is going for thought in human brain?
An erroneous assumption about counciousness is considering language as fundamental. Thats observable on people with disconnected brain hemispheres: sending separate signals to each eye produces a conscious response and another one, wich is felt automatic(both responses ocurring simultaneously), but is just the hemisphere with no language capabilities, so you can extrapolate we have more than one conciousness but we associate ourself to the linguistic brain hemisphere but in reality there are more selves wich dont use language
Could you interview Chris Langan, creator of the CTMU?
May you live forever.
On top of gravitational waves, from.a previous universe, from pre big bang. Should we be able to find neutrinos that are decoupled into their separate flavours? If they are that decoupled they should be separated from each other from a certain amount of distance.
It's theorised that the flavours of neutrinos decouple (decoherent) after a certain amount of time.
The Legend Prof. Penrose.
Thank you
does logic go beyond mathematics and computation?
At every scale is every scale which means it's all one scale or all one cyclic fractal holographic...? Roger compared the final expansion with the big bang in scale in the Conformal theory I believe.
An uplifting interview.
does choice require consciousness? if computers or AI could cognitively learn to make choice(s), would have developed consciousness? when a choice is made, what happens in human brain cognitively and consciously?
was NOT expecting this
The brain is not the seat of consciousness. It is merely an interface for the non-material to link with the material
Symmetry only needs a point not a line not does it necessarily require a center certainly not a static center that presides at the middle
Thanks for painting lines on a N dimensional playing fields
Whoa another one
Hi, I like you're name.
"Consciousness transcends computation!" 👍 (Green Fire, UK) 🌈🦉
you want a diverse physicist then interview David Deutsch. I love science and people like Roger who push it forward
might cosmological constant happen from gravity?
@14:00 it's not the "complex numbers" that make twistors a good bridge between GR and QM, after-all, Clifford spacetime algebra has that and more, rather what twisters show is that quantum mechanics is only exactly defined on the holographic boundary, which for de Sitter space is the celestial sphere (or "stretched horizon"). The meaning of this is basic: QM only makes physical sense "far" from a measurement (so 5 - 10 m or so a-ways at the LHC ;-), and QM only makes total sense therefore at the boundaries (measurements are defined by a partial spacetime cobordism). You could say QM only makes _total absolute sense_ then at the spacetime boundaries, which for us is the celestial sphere (where the twistors "live" so-to-speak).
This is nothing too profound, Susskind already knows this, he just thinks of it backwards, he thinks the hologram is "more fundamental", but it's not imho. Arkani-Hamed "knows" this too, the amplituhedron formalism is just modernized S-matrix program --- you have to go to asymptotics to define a proper QFT/QM.
the conformal cyclic cosmology is exiting
Both of u sir’s have a good night, my highest respect bye
very good interview :)
I read the book when it first appeared, but never understood how to identify a dud (bombs that doesn't work).
This is an old interview, I believe.
Is that a repost of an old video?
Still waiting for you to get Dr Robert Lanza on.....
BUT I wished you'd ask for his thoughts on GPT4 / GPTx
This is 3 years old.
Thanks!
No problem!
@@DrBrianKeating I would love to see you host Professors Penrose and Al-Khalil in a special program. I think they complement each other very well.
Do u see how i angle my phone?
why can microtubules cohere quantum in brain?
Why does addition jump red? Maybe you should stop spamming inchorent gibberish.
and oberving consciousness through mathematics, let's say on a full correct model, what does really tell us?: that is not 'divine' or given by some external intelligence? or maybe that Math will replace that chair? Modeling the brain activity is one thing,. Making it Understand the Universe is a complete diferent one.
what does falsifiable mean?
Awesome get….legend❣️
Chaaaaaapteeeers please!!
In Dutch
In de geest van de keizer.
Can we now say 'Post Descartes?' The mind brain problem solved?
This was good!