I have to say as a gay man in my 40s I have ran across so much fetishization. I'll start by saying, I have felt uncomfortable around women multiple times. In my early 20s, women would come to the gay bar to have a party, feel safe, etc. Which is fine, but when they start doing to us what they don't want straight men to do to them, I'm done. No, I don't want to feel your boobs, I don't care how many gay men say they love your boobs. No, you cannot watch me and my boyfriend kiss, we don't kiss in public, and even if we did, we don't want to be gawked at. No, I don't want to give you a kiss. As for currently. I'm writing my debut novel about a large man (known as bears in the gay community) in his late 30s looking for love. He finds it in the form of another bear. I try to see how other authors do this. ALL of the books I've read with an overweight MC is either A) Someone who is fit and says they're prefect the way they are and they have fallen for them. B) thin or muscular guy fetishizes about chubby men, and it's his kink and the only thing that attracts him to the chubby MC C) the MC is actually a muscle bear (different than regular bear, they are more muscular, but still hairy) who finds a thin/athletic/muscle bear person. D) Or my favorite (and I have found one) Muscle bear finds a chubby sweet guy and falls in love and I enjoy it and it has the lowest rating in the series because people say they didn't feel the chemistry, or it just didn't feel right. D really irks me because that tells me you don't care that it's m/m, you want it to have a least one stereotypical masculine man who is the dominating one. I have yet to find one where two chubby MC's find each other, so I'm writing it.
I'm sorry you've had to deal with weird women, that doesn't sound fun :( you're so right though about the kinds of m/m or f/f books that become popular with straight readers. all the most popular f/f romances feature slim femme women, no butches in sight! I for one welcome books about chubby guys finding love, that sounds great to me :)
@@illreadwhatshesreading A lot of gays and lesbians try really hard to find authentic own voices, like authentic bears or some butch or tomboyish lesbians, but they're impossible to find, buried under a lot of dross written by heterosexuals.
@Theo-oh3jk , thank you for the comment. I appreciate it when someone takes the time to read my comments and understand my view. The book is going well. I'm going to do a read through during the next few weeks to make sure the story flows, makes sense, last minute grammar and spelling issues, and then I'm going to query with a small publisher. The book was originally called A Bear for Bernard, but that felt one sided, because both MCs (Bernard and Rory) are going through their own journey. So, I'm going to change it, but haven't solidified a title yet. I have a few floating around and I'm working with my Beta Readers on it as well as a title for the series. I have three books planned (not outlined yet) wirh a possibility of a 4th. Books I enjoy are books by Andrew Grey and T.J. Klune. Both great authors. T.J. Klune has one called Bear, Otter, and the kid. I haven't read it yet, but will after I finish Andrew Grey's Farm series.
I would also add something I've read and found interesting; that women may prefer mlm romances and consume and write sexual content between men because they've been taught by society that their sexuality is something wrong and shameful, so they find a way to explore their sexual identity through erotic and romantic fiction that doesn't involve women. I found that very interesting not only because of the unconscious internalised shame and misogyny that i definitely resonate with, but also because i find that a lot of the times in mlm romances and especially in fanfiction, it's written a bit like it's a straight romance, except none of them is a woman? If it makes sense. Like, there's a whole fanfiction category (omegaverse) that involves (cis) men taking what is transitionally the "woman's role" - getting pregnant and giving birth, most notably but also many times it comes with a lot of traditional stereotypes and expectations, like purity culture, being expected to stay at home, being weak and in need to be protected, being feminine etc. All of these, while also being explicitly and unashamedly sexual. So yeah, i think that's interesting
I definitely see that. I think some people feel that mlm stuff is 'safe'. like, they won't encounter any kind of misogyny there. I've seen omegaverse stuff and yeah, the woobifying of men to create a dom/sub kind of dynamic is not great in terms of the actual dynamics between gay people, but I think this is more just a general thing in fanfiction/fandom.
I talk about this kinda topic a lot cause most of the stories/comics I read are m/m and the fangirls always made me cringe and it always felt like they were reading it because it's m/m and not a love story. All the points you made perfectly summed up my feelings towards it especially the ratio of male and female characters, so yeah really great video. Deserves a lot more views
I think you make a lot of great points as to why so many females/women are into m/m fiction. And it does make sense, but as a gay guy, it makes me feel really uncomfortable that gay men are in a sense being romantically and sexually written by an overwhelming amount of women through a woman’s perspective. It kind of makes the whole conversation about women and straight men while using gay men to do so. It’s basically the objectification of gay men. And telling a bunch of readers whom most who have never met a gay male and saying this is what a gay male is like and how their relationships are, is kind of wrong. It denounces gay male relationships/romances to stereotypes and Dom/sub viewpoints. Kind of like straight people who use to overwhelmingly and still do ask gay men: so who’s the man and who’s the woman? Umm, we’re both men: there is no woman involved. Very upsetting and it’s applying that ignorance to how I see a lot of these gay male relationships written. I definitely understand the underlying misogyny reason you mentioned; I guess it just bothers me as to why use gay men to fight against that or express yourself? Not saying women can’t write gay characters or gay romance (some do and get it really right), but it’s an overwhelming majority of just gay male romances. Or gay male romances how a woman would expect them or view them to be. Why not write f/f romances? Or romances that are m/f that don’t necessarily follow the gender norms that all these women and girls writing them hate? Cause just writing a bunch of m/m isn’t going to solve those problems. Not saying it needs to be that deep. But when an overwhelming amount of women are writing specifically that; is it really any difference than a bunch of straight guys getting off to and objectifying lesbians? The reasons might not be the same; but it’s wrong and uses gay males as an outlet for issues you have that are predominantly caused by straight men. Not trying to be offensive and I imagine lesbians or queer women in general would be annoyed by this too. Just my opinion not to say I’m right or anyone else is wrong. Just makes me greatly uncomfortable the overwhelming amount of gay male fiction is written by women for women.
I totally agree with you, it's definitely an issue. The majority of m/m content that's produced does seem to be written for a female audience, which is packaging gay relationships in a way that may not reflect reality. There are certainly women who fetishise m/m couples, maybe because they're attracted to men or for whatever other reason there is. I wasn't trying to deny that, just show an aspect of why m/m ships in fandoms seem to be more popular than m/f or f/f ships. I would love it if women, whether straight or not, would embrace f/f stories more! There are lots of female writers who will write m/m and m/f stories but actively turn away from sapphic stories, which is very frustrating. Why are you comfortable writing only one type of queer couple?? I think a partial solution is just to actively write better character relationships across all genders, so fans won't only be drawn to interactions between male characters. Will there still be people who fetishise gay men? Probably. But at least it would show people these aren't the only characters worth being invested in.
I completely agree, it just feels like the toxicity is just being passed on from the heterosexual objectification and gender norms, through the objectification of gay couples. I've known plenty of women who talk about gay men like they're just sex dolls in the same way straight men talk about lesbians, and I'm sick of justifying it through the fact that everyone goes through it.
@@illreadwhatshesreading Something to think about: using "queer" which not every GSM is even comfortable using btw, causes a problem of categorization. What do gay men, lesbians, bisexual people, trans people etc. etc., have in common? Basically nothing. I can easily see why someone who writes m/f, m/m, or f/f wouldn't be comfortable writing another kind of "queer" story. They aren't the same. to put it a different way, if someone were writing a "POC" story about an Mexican society, they may not be comfortable writing a story about a Sri Lankan society. They are both "POC" but not the same. It could be the author is Mexican and doesn't feel comfortable writing outside of that, or doesn't know enough about Sri Lankan society. It's the same for GSM stories. In this case, it's most often straight women who only feel comfortable writing m/f or m/m. One they natively understand and the other they feel like they can translate easily (although I vehemently disagree that they can).
I agree, straight people now casually ask ''so who's the bottom/top?''. Not only is it extremely inappropriate to ask such personal things about sexual preferences, but it is also trying to apply heteronormative gender roles to gay male couples. Of course, they're also assuming that all gay/bi men must fit into these binary categories as if verse or sides don't exist. It's like bi erasure all over again mixed with the issues between gender norms in heterosexual relationships.
If I can just share my perspective on this as a gay guy for a moment, a big part of this that really annoys me is the fact that the majority of M/M romance stuff feels like it's directed towards women, and usually is also written by women. It's really hard to find something I can actually relate to just because I don't fit into the perfect little wholesome stereotype that's deemed acceptable by these stories.
I totally see that and understand that frustration. I feel similarly about the depiction of lesbians/sapphic women in a lot of mainstream media, where they still have to appease the male gaze and look attractive to straight men. Sucks that you have to do a bit of digging to find stuff that actually speaks to the experiences of a lot of queer people, but it is out there!
@@illreadwhatshesreading This is something that I know isn't for everyone, but animation is probably one of the best places to look for good lgbt representation that's actually written by and for the people being represented, and most of that is sapphic/wlw characters.
I feel the same about this too! I do like reading f/f and I try to find those to read and it’s difficult. I managed to find some f/f books that I fell in love with and would reread. I just wished they were more well known in the queer genre, just as m/m books are.
straight girls hold all the power and they want to see boys kiss. what about what WE want? what about OUR needs?? lol thanks for watching and glad you've been able to find some f/f books you like :)
also, very well put video, i really liked the points you mentioned and i have read the post you mentioned on tumblr. it's just sad that people don't understand the difference between supporting mlm and being creepy. like seriously, fetishization is creepy, imo. really liked the video!!
Thanks! I honestly think it's just a thing people don't even realise it when they're doing it. Like, people don't see why it's a bad thing when a popular female romance writer will write m/f and m/m but say they have no interest in writing f/f relationships. Sus af Thanks for watching!
I want to say you talk about the power dynamic between men and women. The interesting thing is in most of the m/m romances I read, that dynamic is there with the men. I haven't found many M/M romances I enjoy yet, but there are a few. It's usually the more dominating one and the one who is passive, and submissive, and wants to please the other one and it's like their a doll for one of the MC's to play with.
@@Random-sk6hm, right. That's what I see as well. It's not as 'seen' because it's two men and readers automatically assume equal, when it's not if you read into it enough.
The certainly applies now, because ever since Honkai star rail came out it’s been nothing but MLM even though there is a canon lesbian relationship and a canon bisexual female character and yet the mlm romances continue to get attention. It’s frustrating how WLW will get overlooked in favor of MLM.
As a gay dude on the one hand I think it's really cool that women have a way of exploring their sexualities or romantic interests without the oppressive and like omnipresent chauvinism and bodily/sexual alienation they're subjected to in patriarchal society but on the other hand when a majority of 'MLM' media is so utterly divorced from my own interests or sensibilities or my experience of my own sexuality it can be pretty alienating. Though I mean lesbians re 'lesbian porn' have my sense of alienation beat on that count, by far, it's still just kind of weird lol. On the rare occasion that something actually has crossover appeal for both girls and gays I'll be pretty elated to feel like I actually have some space I want to occupy there, but on the whole it does seem to be comparatively rare.
As a not huge romance reader I will say that I've never felt attracted to a character. I'm not ace I just don't but anyway I think liking a character because they're attractive is pretty vapid. Isn't the point to become invested in two characters and their romance?
Yeah, I mean it's fine if a reader thinks a character is hot or whatever but I don't see how that should be the driving force here. Like, books are a non-visual medium, surely if someone just wanted to look at hot guys they'd watch a movie or something? idk
The levels to which I have to shut my mouth, because as a queer romance author, the levels this goes are DEEP. But there is definitely a huge level of unconscious bias, as exemplified by the person who didn’t like Casey’s f/f. There’s a reason why conventionally masc MCs are more popular than slimmer or more “femme” MCs. The main readers of m/m still tend to be white cishet women, even if they’re not the target. Conversely, imo the actual audience for sapphic romances are going to be sapphic readers, because of the attraction issue. Just a few days ago, a trade review company said an f/f romance wouldn’t appeal to readers of romance. That bias runs deep and unaddressed. Re: Mackie, I think it’s almost impossible to to address his comments without addressing the levels of toxic hyper masculinity in the Black community. Which, frankly, is why I write what I do 😅
It's totally true that f/f stories rarely reach the same level of mainstream success as m/m stories because straight women aren't interested in reading/writing them. In a way that's almost a positive because it means that sapphic lit is being created in a more authentic way, as it's being produced for sapphic readers, but yeah it does highlight the bias. And yeah, I'm sure there's a bigger conversation to be had around Anthony Mackie but as I'm not black or American I don't think I'm the best person to steer that discussion aha.
Even though this video was made a few years ago, all the points it raises remain relevant today. When recent statistics on the most popular ships on Archive of Our Own were released, only 5 out of the top 100 were f/f pairings, with the rest being m/m or m/f (predominantly m/m). What’s even more concerning is that of those 5 f/f ships, only 1 or 2 are prominently featured in fanfictions, while the others are often relegated to the background in fics centered around m/m pairings. When users on Twitter raised concerns about this issue, fujoshis frequently responded with comments like 'if you're so mad about it, then start writing your own fics,' completely ignoring the underlying problems of blatant misogyny and the fetishization of mlm relationships in fandom spaces. Instead of engaging in a meaningful discussion, they dismissed the critique and perpetuated the harmful dynamics that were being called out. Thank you for making this video, it really helped me understand the reasons why so many prefer mlm over wlw.
As a certified homosexual, I have found the reaction of women to be more.... Uncomfortable than that of men. As in, the reaction of that *certain group* of women who want you to be their "Gay Bestie" and want to set me up with utter randos I neither care for nor really care for me. It's weird.
This problem won't be solved until women stop making excuses and just loudly yell "Gay men make me horny!". It isn't about how many women are in media, it isn't about how women are told sex is bad, it isn't about feminism or patriarchy. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. If straight men into lesbians is wrong, then so is straight women into gay men is wrong. That's it. As a gay man, who constantly tries to find books and media that are salient for my life, and finding virtually nothing, I'm tired of women messing things up for me, and then pointing their fingers at men. Have some personal responsibility and accountability.
One of the biggest excuses that hurts my head especially on Twitter, is when straight women claim that gay men are being misogynistic simply because we are uncomfortable with this or that we deserve to be treated this way because in the end of the day we are men and misandry is so rampant nowadays. People need to understand that intersectionality exists. You can't treat a collective group the same cause despite having similar struggles they might also have different issues as well. Gay men can still be harmed by things like misandry and patriarchy because we don't even fit the "traditional" mold of manhood
@@patrickagokeitwitter fujoshis...are smth else. I deleted twt at that point I've seen them making fun and wanting to talk over mlms. Saying transphobic stuf Saying how men should be sexualized more and objectified(i am kidding. I was beyond shocked)
They use gay media like straight men use porn. Straight men like lesbian porn, straight women love smutty fanfic (their version of written porn) about gay men.
As a Korean/Canadian, I find that quite amusing because it is quite opposite here. Gay relationship is just absolute taboo and "danger material", almost a level of "stuff to never see a light of the world" in male dominated communities, but lesbian relationship is liked in both men or women centric communties. Hell, there is even genre term for that similar to "Yuri", which name of the genre is literally... "PuXXy rubbing"..... I was literally novelwriter in male centric webnovel platform. Literally their guide suggests "If you can't decide your character's gender+sex, go women. It never goes wrong."
One of the two most famous BL novels (The Untamed and Husky And His White Cat) in the world was written by women and was loved by people all over the world. But somehow when it comes to writing two gay men have sex with each other, they suck at it. It clearly shows that they don't know what is sex like between two men (I read some of the sex scenes in the book and it makes me cringe so hard). But the love story is on point and the plot is chef kiss.
Unfortunately, I do not. I didn't save the article when I read it, so I guess people can choose for themselves whether or not to believe the validity of that part of the video u_u
Is Casey the one who made the initial tik tok video? Because I really don't know. If you're referring to Casey McQuiston, I don't know what her gender identity is but her twitter profile says 'any pronouns'. Let me know if I've made any missteps here :)
I think you’re reading too much into this lol .. gay male relationships get more attention because females are the main consumers of media of any type and most females have an attraction to men whether exclusive or partial so of course they’re gonna be more interested in a relationship they can identify with because they’re somewhat attracted to the characters. Maybe some of that is misogyny but like 3% of the reason?
I def think that's part of it but I also think there are layers to it, especially when you consider that m/m ships are very popular even with largely queer female audiences. This video's a little old now and I'd probably make some points differently but my main point still stands imo.
I have to say as a gay man in my 40s I have ran across so much fetishization. I'll start by saying, I have felt uncomfortable around women multiple times. In my early 20s, women would come to the gay bar to have a party, feel safe, etc. Which is fine, but when they start doing to us what they don't want straight men to do to them, I'm done. No, I don't want to feel your boobs, I don't care how many gay men say they love your boobs. No, you cannot watch me and my boyfriend kiss, we don't kiss in public, and even if we did, we don't want to be gawked at. No, I don't want to give you a kiss.
As for currently. I'm writing my debut novel about a large man (known as bears in the gay community) in his late 30s looking for love. He finds it in the form of another bear. I try to see how other authors do this. ALL of the books I've read with an overweight MC is either
A) Someone who is fit and says they're prefect the way they are and they have fallen for them.
B) thin or muscular guy fetishizes about chubby men, and it's his kink and the only thing that attracts him to the chubby MC
C) the MC is actually a muscle bear (different than regular bear, they are more muscular, but still hairy) who finds a thin/athletic/muscle bear person.
D) Or my favorite (and I have found one) Muscle bear finds a chubby sweet guy and falls in love and I enjoy it and it has the lowest rating in the series because people say they didn't feel the chemistry, or it just didn't feel right.
D really irks me because that tells me you don't care that it's m/m, you want it to have a least one stereotypical masculine man who is the dominating one.
I have yet to find one where two chubby MC's find each other, so I'm writing it.
I'm sorry you've had to deal with weird women, that doesn't sound fun :(
you're so right though about the kinds of m/m or f/f books that become popular with straight readers. all the most popular f/f romances feature slim femme women, no butches in sight!
I for one welcome books about chubby guys finding love, that sounds great to me :)
@@illreadwhatshesreading Thank you for the reply. It's what I want to read too, and I was told write what you want to read. So, here I am. :)
How is your book going? As a gay bear, I'd be stoked to read something like that! :D Also, what is the title of D) that you found and liked?
@@illreadwhatshesreading A lot of gays and lesbians try really hard to find authentic own voices, like authentic bears or some butch or tomboyish lesbians, but they're impossible to find, buried under a lot of dross written by heterosexuals.
@Theo-oh3jk , thank you for the comment. I appreciate it when someone takes the time to read my comments and understand my view. The book is going well. I'm going to do a read through during the next few weeks to make sure the story flows, makes sense, last minute grammar and spelling issues, and then I'm going to query with a small publisher. The book was originally called A Bear for Bernard, but that felt one sided, because both MCs (Bernard and Rory) are going through their own journey. So, I'm going to change it, but haven't solidified a title yet. I have a few floating around and I'm working with my Beta Readers on it as well as a title for the series. I have three books planned (not outlined yet) wirh a possibility of a 4th. Books I enjoy are books by Andrew Grey and T.J. Klune. Both great authors. T.J. Klune has one called Bear, Otter, and the kid. I haven't read it yet, but will after I finish Andrew Grey's Farm series.
I would also add something I've read and found interesting; that women may prefer mlm romances and consume and write sexual content between men because they've been taught by society that their sexuality is something wrong and shameful, so they find a way to explore their sexual identity through erotic and romantic fiction that doesn't involve women. I found that very interesting not only because of the unconscious internalised shame and misogyny that i definitely resonate with, but also because i find that a lot of the times in mlm romances and especially in fanfiction, it's written a bit like it's a straight romance, except none of them is a woman? If it makes sense. Like, there's a whole fanfiction category (omegaverse) that involves (cis) men taking what is transitionally the "woman's role" - getting pregnant and giving birth, most notably but also many times it comes with a lot of traditional stereotypes and expectations, like purity culture, being expected to stay at home, being weak and in need to be protected, being feminine etc. All of these, while also being explicitly and unashamedly sexual. So yeah, i think that's interesting
I definitely see that. I think some people feel that mlm stuff is 'safe'. like, they won't encounter any kind of misogyny there. I've seen omegaverse stuff and yeah, the woobifying of men to create a dom/sub kind of dynamic is not great in terms of the actual dynamics between gay people, but I think this is more just a general thing in fanfiction/fandom.
I talk about this kinda topic a lot cause most of the stories/comics I read are m/m and the fangirls always made me cringe and it always felt like they were reading it because it's m/m and not a love story. All the points you made perfectly summed up my feelings towards it especially the ratio of male and female characters, so yeah really great video. Deserves a lot more views
I think you make a lot of great points as to why so many females/women are into m/m fiction. And it does make sense, but as a gay guy, it makes me feel really uncomfortable that gay men are in a sense being romantically and sexually written by an overwhelming amount of women through a woman’s perspective. It kind of makes the whole conversation about women and straight men while using gay men to do so. It’s basically the objectification of gay men. And telling a bunch of readers whom most who have never met a gay male and saying this is what a gay male is like and how their relationships are, is kind of wrong. It denounces gay male relationships/romances to stereotypes and Dom/sub viewpoints. Kind of like straight people who use to overwhelmingly and still do ask gay men: so who’s the man and who’s the woman? Umm, we’re both men: there is no woman involved. Very upsetting and it’s applying that ignorance to how I see a lot of these gay male relationships written.
I definitely understand the underlying misogyny reason you mentioned; I guess it just bothers me as to why use gay men to fight against that or express yourself? Not saying women can’t write gay characters or gay romance (some do and get it really right), but it’s an overwhelming majority of just gay male romances. Or gay male romances how a woman would expect them or view them to be. Why not write f/f romances? Or romances that are m/f that don’t necessarily follow the gender norms that all these women and girls writing them hate? Cause just writing a bunch of m/m isn’t going to solve those problems. Not saying it needs to be that deep. But when an overwhelming amount of women are writing specifically that; is it really any difference than a bunch of straight guys getting off to and objectifying lesbians? The reasons might not be the same; but it’s wrong and uses gay males as an outlet for issues you have that are predominantly caused by straight men.
Not trying to be offensive and I imagine lesbians or queer women in general would be annoyed by this too. Just my opinion not to say I’m right or anyone else is wrong. Just makes me greatly uncomfortable the overwhelming amount of gay male fiction is written by women for women.
I totally agree with you, it's definitely an issue. The majority of m/m content that's produced does seem to be written for a female audience, which is packaging gay relationships in a way that may not reflect reality. There are certainly women who fetishise m/m couples, maybe because they're attracted to men or for whatever other reason there is. I wasn't trying to deny that, just show an aspect of why m/m ships in fandoms seem to be more popular than m/f or f/f ships.
I would love it if women, whether straight or not, would embrace f/f stories more! There are lots of female writers who will write m/m and m/f stories but actively turn away from sapphic stories, which is very frustrating. Why are you comfortable writing only one type of queer couple?? I think a partial solution is just to actively write better character relationships across all genders, so fans won't only be drawn to interactions between male characters. Will there still be people who fetishise gay men? Probably. But at least it would show people these aren't the only characters worth being invested in.
I completely agree, it just feels like the toxicity is just being passed on from the heterosexual objectification and gender norms, through the objectification of gay couples. I've known plenty of women who talk about gay men like they're just sex dolls in the same way straight men talk about lesbians, and I'm sick of justifying it through the fact that everyone goes through it.
@@illreadwhatshesreading Something to think about: using "queer" which not every GSM is even comfortable using btw, causes a problem of categorization. What do gay men, lesbians, bisexual people, trans people etc. etc., have in common? Basically nothing. I can easily see why someone who writes m/f, m/m, or f/f wouldn't be comfortable writing another kind of "queer" story. They aren't the same. to put it a different way, if someone were writing a "POC" story about an Mexican society, they may not be comfortable writing a story about a Sri Lankan society. They are both "POC" but not the same. It could be the author is Mexican and doesn't feel comfortable writing outside of that, or doesn't know enough about Sri Lankan society. It's the same for GSM stories. In this case, it's most often straight women who only feel comfortable writing m/f or m/m. One they natively understand and the other they feel like they can translate easily (although I vehemently disagree that they can).
@@Nemo_Anomthe lgbtq faces discriminations, hate crimes, being fetishized and sexualized.
Thats smth we all have in common
I agree, straight people now casually ask ''so who's the bottom/top?''. Not only is it extremely inappropriate to ask such personal things about sexual preferences, but it is also trying to apply heteronormative gender roles to gay male couples. Of course, they're also assuming that all gay/bi men must fit into these binary categories as if verse or sides don't exist. It's like bi erasure all over again mixed with the issues between gender norms in heterosexual relationships.
If I can just share my perspective on this as a gay guy for a moment, a big part of this that really annoys me is the fact that the majority of M/M romance stuff feels like it's directed towards women, and usually is also written by women. It's really hard to find something I can actually relate to just because I don't fit into the perfect little wholesome stereotype that's deemed acceptable by these stories.
I totally see that and understand that frustration. I feel similarly about the depiction of lesbians/sapphic women in a lot of mainstream media, where they still have to appease the male gaze and look attractive to straight men. Sucks that you have to do a bit of digging to find stuff that actually speaks to the experiences of a lot of queer people, but it is out there!
@@illreadwhatshesreading This is something that I know isn't for everyone, but animation is probably one of the best places to look for good lgbt representation that's actually written by and for the people being represented, and most of that is sapphic/wlw characters.
@@amazingspiderlad yes, big agree. cartoons truly blazing that trail for all the sapphics out there lol.
I feel the same about this too! I do like reading f/f and I try to find those to read and it’s difficult. I managed to find some f/f books that I fell in love with and would reread. I just wished they were more well known in the queer genre, just as m/m books are.
straight girls hold all the power and they want to see boys kiss. what about what WE want? what about OUR needs??
lol thanks for watching and glad you've been able to find some f/f books you like :)
also, very well put video, i really liked the points you mentioned and i have read the post you mentioned on tumblr. it's just sad that people don't understand the difference between supporting mlm and being creepy. like seriously, fetishization is creepy, imo. really liked the video!!
Thanks! I honestly think it's just a thing people don't even realise it when they're doing it. Like, people don't see why it's a bad thing when a popular female romance writer will write m/f and m/m but say they have no interest in writing f/f relationships. Sus af
Thanks for watching!
I want to say you talk about the power dynamic between men and women. The interesting thing is in most of the m/m romances I read, that dynamic is there with the men. I haven't found many M/M romances I enjoy yet, but there are a few. It's usually the more dominating one and the one who is passive, and submissive, and wants to please the other one and it's like their a doll for one of the MC's to play with.
It's heteronormativity and gender roles all over again, just packaged differently
@@Random-sk6hm, right. That's what I see as well. It's not as 'seen' because it's two men and readers automatically assume equal, when it's not if you read into it enough.
The certainly applies now, because ever since Honkai star rail came out it’s been nothing but MLM even though there is a canon lesbian relationship and a canon bisexual female character and yet the mlm romances continue to get attention. It’s frustrating how WLW will get overlooked in favor of MLM.
what the heck! I don't know what this thing is but I'm offended on behalf of the sapphics!
As a gay dude on the one hand I think it's really cool that women have a way of exploring their sexualities or romantic interests without the oppressive and like omnipresent chauvinism and bodily/sexual alienation they're subjected to in patriarchal society but on the other hand when a majority of 'MLM' media is so utterly divorced from my own interests or sensibilities or my experience of my own sexuality it can be pretty alienating. Though I mean lesbians re 'lesbian porn' have my sense of alienation beat on that count, by far, it's still just kind of weird lol. On the rare occasion that something actually has crossover appeal for both girls and gays I'll be pretty elated to feel like I actually have some space I want to occupy there, but on the whole it does seem to be comparatively rare.
As a not huge romance reader I will say that I've never felt attracted to a character. I'm not ace I just don't but anyway I think liking a character because they're attractive is pretty vapid. Isn't the point to become invested in two characters and their romance?
Yeah, I mean it's fine if a reader thinks a character is hot or whatever but I don't see how that should be the driving force here. Like, books are a non-visual medium, surely if someone just wanted to look at hot guys they'd watch a movie or something? idk
The levels to which I have to shut my mouth, because as a queer romance author, the levels this goes are DEEP. But there is definitely a huge level of unconscious bias, as exemplified by the person who didn’t like Casey’s f/f. There’s a reason why conventionally masc MCs are more popular than slimmer or more “femme” MCs. The main readers of m/m still tend to be white cishet women, even if they’re not the target. Conversely, imo the actual audience for sapphic romances are going to be sapphic readers, because of the attraction issue. Just a few days ago, a trade review company said an f/f romance wouldn’t appeal to readers of romance. That bias runs deep and unaddressed.
Re: Mackie, I think it’s almost impossible to to address his comments without addressing the levels of toxic hyper masculinity in the Black community. Which, frankly, is why I write what I do 😅
It's totally true that f/f stories rarely reach the same level of mainstream success as m/m stories because straight women aren't interested in reading/writing them. In a way that's almost a positive because it means that sapphic lit is being created in a more authentic way, as it's being produced for sapphic readers, but yeah it does highlight the bias.
And yeah, I'm sure there's a bigger conversation to be had around Anthony Mackie but as I'm not black or American I don't think I'm the best person to steer that discussion aha.
Even though this video was made a few years ago, all the points it raises remain relevant today. When recent statistics on the most popular ships on Archive of Our Own were released, only 5 out of the top 100 were f/f pairings, with the rest being m/m or m/f (predominantly m/m). What’s even more concerning is that of those 5 f/f ships, only 1 or 2 are prominently featured in fanfictions, while the others are often relegated to the background in fics centered around m/m pairings.
When users on Twitter raised concerns about this issue, fujoshis frequently responded with comments like 'if you're so mad about it, then start writing your own fics,' completely ignoring the underlying problems of blatant misogyny and the fetishization of mlm relationships in fandom spaces. Instead of engaging in a meaningful discussion, they dismissed the critique and perpetuated the harmful dynamics that were being called out.
Thank you for making this video, it really helped me understand the reasons why so many prefer mlm over wlw.
As a certified homosexual, I have found the reaction of women to be more.... Uncomfortable than that of men. As in, the reaction of that *certain group* of women who want you to be their "Gay Bestie" and want to set me up with utter randos I neither care for nor really care for me. It's weird.
This problem won't be solved until women stop making excuses and just loudly yell "Gay men make me horny!". It isn't about how many women are in media, it isn't about how women are told sex is bad, it isn't about feminism or patriarchy. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. If straight men into lesbians is wrong, then so is straight women into gay men is wrong. That's it. As a gay man, who constantly tries to find books and media that are salient for my life, and finding virtually nothing, I'm tired of women messing things up for me, and then pointing their fingers at men. Have some personal responsibility and accountability.
One of the biggest excuses that hurts my head especially on Twitter, is when straight women claim that gay men are being misogynistic simply because we are uncomfortable with this or that we deserve to be treated this way because in the end of the day we are men and misandry is so rampant nowadays. People need to understand that intersectionality exists. You can't treat a collective group the same cause despite having similar struggles they might also have different issues as well. Gay men can still be harmed by things like misandry and patriarchy because we don't even fit the "traditional" mold of manhood
@@patrickagokeitwitter fujoshis...are smth else.
I deleted twt at that point
I've seen them making fun and wanting to talk over mlms.
Saying transphobic stuf
Saying how men should be sexualized more and objectified(i am kidding. I was beyond shocked)
They use gay media like straight men use porn. Straight men like lesbian porn, straight women love smutty fanfic (their version of written porn) about gay men.
As a Korean/Canadian, I find that quite amusing because it is quite opposite here.
Gay relationship is just absolute taboo and "danger material", almost a level of "stuff to never see a light of the world" in male dominated communities, but lesbian relationship is liked in both men or women centric communties.
Hell, there is even genre term for that similar to "Yuri", which name of the genre is literally... "PuXXy rubbing".....
I was literally novelwriter in male centric webnovel platform. Literally their guide suggests "If you can't decide your character's gender+sex, go women. It never goes wrong."
I love your video sm❤
One of the two most famous BL novels (The Untamed and Husky And His White Cat) in the world was written by women and was loved by people all over the world. But somehow when it comes to writing two gay men have sex with each other, they suck at it. It clearly shows that they don't know what is sex like between two men (I read some of the sex scenes in the book and it makes me cringe so hard). But the love story is on point and the plot is chef kiss.
Do you have links to the studies about movie extra gender ratios?
Unfortunately, I do not. I didn't save the article when I read it, so I guess people can choose for themselves whether or not to believe the validity of that part of the video u_u
1:29 sorry but isn't Casey non-binary?
Is Casey the one who made the initial tik tok video? Because I really don't know. If you're referring to Casey McQuiston, I don't know what her gender identity is but her twitter profile says 'any pronouns'. Let me know if I've made any missteps here :)
@@illreadwhatshesreading casey mcquiston is non-binary and bisexual. they use any pronouns.
5:42
got that 15th comment LET'S FUCKING GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
I think you’re reading too much into this lol .. gay male relationships get more attention because females are the main consumers of media of any type and most females have an attraction to men whether exclusive or partial so of course they’re gonna be more interested in a relationship they can identify with because they’re somewhat attracted to the characters. Maybe some of that is misogyny but like 3% of the reason?
I def think that's part of it but I also think there are layers to it, especially when you consider that m/m ships are very popular even with largely queer female audiences. This video's a little old now and I'd probably make some points differently but my main point still stands imo.
The whole queer/trans thing is just a heterosexual appropriation of same-sex attraction.