ONE D&D's New VTT is Bad for D&D. Here's Why.
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- Опубликовано: 21 авг 2022
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Virtual Tabletops have been around for almost a decade, but by Wizards of the Coast turning to them as the likely foundation of their business model and platform, means the quality of published book content will likely diminish, smaller RPGs will get less exposure, and the hobby's generational torch-passing tradition will be severely disrupted. 
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The first time I ran for some friends who are avid gamers, they had assumed it would run like a video game, believing that what was on their sheet was all they could do.
It was a pretty great moment when the spellcaster realized he could use his spells in more creative manner, outside of the constraints on what’s on the sheet, which encouraged the other players to use their abilities outside of their intended purpose, provided it was a reasonable action.
I think right there is both the difficulty and the hook for getting new players into tabletop roleplaying. Once they realize that they don't *need* expensive visuals and that what they can do is limited not so much by programmed mechanics or even the stats on their character sheet, but what they can *imagine* trying, that's the moment when players realize the true potential that TTRPGs offer and may become players for life. The low cost of entry and the only limit being imagination are the two things that have kept D&D and other TTRPGs on bookshelves for generations, I'll wager.
Even if OneD&D manages to flourish despite its closed system and probable micropayment model, I think there's good odds that a competing Old School Revolt will arise once more like it did during the 3.5/4e/Pathfinder 1e days, appealing to the creativity, simplicity, and inexpensiveness possible outside of WotC's direct control.
@@DevinParker I think that's a fair assessment.
I haven't run a game in any WoTC official settings or used the rules-as-written and opted to do my own thing from day one, and that's not likely going to change. If OneD&D's rules are good, I'll probably use them, but mold them around my own thing instead.
The first time a player realizes that things that are actually flammable like wood buildings, doors, and furniture can be set alight by spells and other actions, and the light that appears in their eyes when they realize it's NOT like "Generic fire spell3" that just explodes into vapor with no consequences on the world, is pure magic. I think it's part of what makes me like running new players so much in spite of having done this for 20 years.
Spells are one of the few things that I run almost exclusively as written, because it gets out of hand QUICK.
@@LeMayJoseph Only if you let it, the GM is still the final arbiter on what can and cannot be permitted.
Wait, are you telling me the giant megacorporation using its money and power to manipulate the cultural space around its product to create a virtual monopoly is *bad* actually?? 😲
I'm sure no corporation has ever tried to do that in the history of anything. Everything will be fine, I'm sure WOTC will even constantly tell gamers how fine things are. It's going to be the new TTRPG utopia. Now excuse me while I go get a glass of Kool-Aid.
@@Jimalcoatl yes im sure wotc will make sure that no childeren are going to steal their mommies credit card to buy the brand new black lion barbrian limited edition mask for 20 dollars
Hah, they make Monopoly too. Zing.
Well, everybody knows we consumers would rather have all our choices locked up behind a pay wall and be severely constricted in our options and perceived available choices. Who needs the freedom of "generations" of open-ended play-styles when we can be fenced in by seemingly benevolent corporate overlords? After all, isn't that in the true spirit of D&D and the legion of rpg's it inspired?
Wait until they start adding mobile gaming-esque monetisation to the VTT/D&D app sphere. “Unlockable classes and spells”… I mean, thinking about it, DnD Beyond already had this where instead of purchasing an entire sourcebook you could pay a reduced price to “unlock” particular aspects (classes, races, spells, etc).
When the One D&D trailer came out and they showed the virtual table top, my immediate reaction was "I have a bad feeling about this." It seemed like it will overcomplicate and slow down the game, while at the same time make the experience shallower and lock the players into the grip of the digital services. Yet, all over the place, I see almost everybody cheering and applauding the vtt announcement.
There is a huge difference between what people want and what people need. Just look at the UA release. All those power creep homebrews are being tested as cannon rules, even the elimination of monster critical hits ffs. Yet the players fail to realize it's the sensation of threat, not power, which makes the game fun. The power is just the means to overcome it.
Also, I find listening to survey respondents is a way to make the game better for AL minimaxers, but not casual players. Survey respondents are hardcore gamers, unlike casuals who won't even know there is a survey. It's a massive survivorship bias in the data. The RTS segment of the video game industry died because game developers kept leaning into pro eSports advice, when casual gamers just wanted a fun story mode that largely got ignored.
Esper, thanks to your work, I truly realized how badly 5e is rigged in FAVOR of the players, and how much that takes from the game. Baron said it better than I could in that the threat is what makes the game. Even though players generally say they don't want that, it's what makes everyone tense in combat and thus enjoy it more. I fear this new system (with many other concerns) will only increase the difficulty DM's have to tailor monsters to their group, while not even suggesting that's an option for newer DMs.
@@DungeonMasterpiece Agreed, but on the other hand, newer monsters from MotM seem to be way stronger than their counterparts in the Monster's Manual from 2014 (generally speaking).
I, personally as a DM, tend to simply increase monsters' damages, abilities, numbers or use higher CR ones. In general, I buff my encounters, so I don't really mind the PCs buffs, sometimes players want to make thematic characters but find it to be too limiting or unviable, such as using mostly air or water like spells etc. We also enjoyed the rebalancing on feats and hope for it to be better handled this time around.
However, the DMs can't crit rule is just absurd and unfun, we at our tables don't see that becoming official, we feel like it'll be an optional rule at most.
Thanks for the video and for raising awareness to the state of the game and company overall, really appreciated it! Cheers
@@DungeonMasterpiece yeah, I watched a good doco on that. I wasn't aware that it was happening in this space too, though I am not surprised.
I'd say that we're seeing so many people cheering this vtt thing cause the most vocal group of the D&D fanbase nowadays are very specific kind of group. (I'm not trying to talk shit on these people, just saying what I observe). I think these people are relatively new to the hobby, most of them coming from things like Critical Role, Live Streams and Very well produced D&d podcasts, so they already started in the hobby with things like miniatures, sound effects, roll 20 and stuff like this. That's the norm for them. They didn't really have the opportunity to have a full theater of the mind experience. I'd dare say a lot of them wouldn't even like D&D that much without things like roll 20, battle maps etc. Besides that, these people are very engaged with technology and social media (one of the reasons form them being the most vocal/visible group of the fanbase), so they probably like trendy technology simply because it's cool to be techy. Again, I'm not trying to attack these people since everyone should be able to play the way they want. However, I do think that these people being the ones that WotC is catering for will hurt the game in the long run. There is a lot of people who still want to buy physical books, play with their friends physically together, without screens and things like that.
For me one of the things that always made RPGs superior to video games is they weren't limited to what was programed into them.
As a content creator, it worries me. I've worked in IT before creating Michael Ghelfi Studios and I know how restrictive a platform can be on creativity and general freedom. I fear the moment when we'll have to produce content exactly like they want, with tons of restrictions and a 45% cut on our earnings to get the right to offer our 1500 audio tracks to the DMs. Even worse: what if they decide to select just a few creators and exclude the rest?
Hah-hah! You said "What if?"!
Totally agree with this sentiment. BTW I love your music Michael, using your stuff for ambience all the time at my table.
@@justincasebro1567 Thank you Justin :) I hope most people won't switch to their new solution so we can keep our Patreon and RUclips running for you haha
This stuff is truly terrifying, i use your stuff almost exclusively. You, Adrian von Ziegler are my go to ambience guys. I love your work and i hope i fucking hope we'll wake up from this oncoming Orwellian nightmare.
This is exactly what they are doing. Be ready because they will come after all other VTT options and they WILL create microtransactions, mini-shops, skins, etc. They will monetize the absolute shit out of D&D ONE.
One of the unintended consequences I've noticed with VTTs is in ones where the VTT is set up to do all of your calculations for you, you don't learn the system. New players who aren't familiar with the system don't learn where all the plusses and minuses come from, or how exactly different parts work together. Character proficient in a system can work out combinations to enhance their chances of success or fully assess how dire a situation is and make choices based on that insight. I've played several systems now where the GM went through all the effort of setting our character up on whichever VTT is was. We played and had fun, but at the end of the day I couldn't tell you anything how the system worked. All new players of every game go through that initial learning curve. That's normal. But after a couple sessions they learn the ropes, seeing how Stats and Skills work together or the subtle intricacies of Combat mechanics. Dependency on VTTs to do all the calculations for you extends that newbie time. Having D&D promote their VTT as the way to play D&D means a very reasonable chance of a lot of players who love to play, but have no idea how the game works. This can lead to more dependency on pre-written adventures and less creative, "I'm gonna drop the chandelier on them" thinking, because no one around the table even knows how to calculate that on the fly.
Damn. I never put it together until you said this, but even D&D beyond, I've noticed has extended that lead time with new 5th edition players I've played with. Well said.
And it encourages/enables the players who want to play a spell caster but can't be bothered to read (let alone remember) their spells. And a player who lacks the foggiest notion of what their spells do has no chance of noticing a situation where one of those spells could be used creatively.
@@Dennis-vh8tz Hey man, I get what you're saying-that these systems can encourage players to never really learn the game's underlying systems-but your argument also kinda comes down to "It makes it easier for new players to play a class they otherwise wouldn't be as good at." Correct me if I'm wrong or misinterpreting here, but isn't that just a good thing?
I once played with a new group that included players that didn't know the first thing about tabletop gaming, several of whom picked spellcasters because they thought they sounded cool. Even up until the end of the campaign, many of them couldn't figure out how most of their spells worked (this happened to be a Pathfinder game, too, which you can imagine just made it worse).
Now imagine if they had a handy-dandy toolbar that told them all of their spells, offered highlighted areas of where they could hit, kept track of how long they lasted, rolled their dice for them and calculated their modifiers... For new players, it'd be like a godsend. It can be easy for us veterans to forget how tricky RPGs can be for newbies (speaking as a GM who knows my preferred system inside and out, and for the life of me can't explain the darn thing because I keep forgetting how awkward its systems seem at first).
@@vurrunna Having played alongside that player I'm not convinced it's better. Every combat ground to a halt, and everybody else got bored and frustrated, waiting for that one player to look for their spell list it, read it, ask the DM and other players multiple questions about how their spells worked, argue answers they didn't like, take several minutes to decide, then realized they couldn't cast the spell or it didn't work as assumed, so they had to choose another while the DM figured out how to recon the description....
@@vurrunna kinda feels like you actually made his point for him.
Admittedly, I started this video kind of expecting to disagree - I'm glad I did, though - because you make a lot of good points and bring up some valid concerns that I hadn't even considered as a newer player.
My friends and I use Talespire for our game, we all started D&D mid-pandemic for the first time - and so far it's been a lot of fun. We have some veteran players kind of demonstrating what's "possible" with cool outside the box thinking and all the new players have slowly come around and learned that anything really is an option - however without them, I think it would have been really easy to get stuck in the mindset of only considering things that'd be possible within the confines of the VTT itself.
Great video, thanks man.
I play mainly online now because of necessity but if you can try playing around a table, it's a very different experience and probably more fun overall - no criticism of Tailspire.
As an artist, I find battle maps better for me in two major ways that theater of the mind lacks: expression of artistry in a medium I can understand/appreciate and the ability to fully understand what's going on spatially in order to employ tactics. No matter how much you try to describe a room, I'm not going to be able to keep track of where an enemy is, where I am, where all of my companions are, the distance relationships between all combatants, how far I am from a wall or feature, etc. I at least need some kind of map for that. With all of that uncertainty and unknowns, my engagement significantly drops. Because of that, the VTT argument rings a bit hollow to me, since I already like Foundry VTT for presenting battle maps. That being said, though the D&D VTT looks pretty, I doubt I'll ever use it, since I don't have enough 3D skill to satisfy my expectations of what I create. The other arguments, however, are far more significant in my book. How they handle the "microtransactions" and player driven content is going to be key to how well this plays out for them. I make a lot of homebrew stuff as a DM, so the DM's Guild should remain an important and viable piece of the puzzle and not require any coding expertise.
These are the same concerns I had watching the announcement. WOTC not only wants to do all our imagining for us, they want us to pay them to do it for us, removing arguably the very thing that makes RPG's great.
They said in the livestream buying an adventure module would come with the entire thing in the VTT, I have aphantasia, should I also be upset they are doing the "imagining" for me Brian?
Yeah, just play the Old CRPGs with friends... I remember having a DM using Neverwinter video game at this sort of thing. It was very limiting. You could only do what the game engine allowed not what you could imagine.
well said
Did you freak out the same way when Dwarven Forge terrain dropped? Cause it’s a battle map with minis on it.
@@HankHill11 Obviously not. But, your circumstances are not representative of the majority of the userbase. It's great this will be a resource that makes your gameplay more enjoyable. But, there's a great deal of this we do not yet know. Will the perceived value of those adventures now be higher because they have virtual maps included as well, thus increasing their cost to the consumer (think about it, from the company's angle they've had additional labor designing these maps in both 3d and 2d assets, an increase in cost only makes sense)? Does the VTT require payment to access at all, and thus buying the adventure including access to VTT assets is a boon to only those who pay a subscription? We don't know. But, I foresee more costs to us, and more microtransactional services from them, and that will impact design and development of future products in this brand/game which leads the hobby.
Again, I'm glad this service will be helpful for you, but there are a large number of people in the audience who do not have the same perspective as you, and their leeriness about the changes in priority to the hobby they love are no less valid because of that.
When the VTT was announced, I thought to myself, "That looks cool, but I'll never use it". The more complexity, the further I get to the tabletop feel.
Yeah, I felt the same way. I'm the DM for my group, and we started the campaign in-person, but we were forced to go online when we all graduated college and moved out. None of us live near each other now, so we use video chatting during sessions. For combat, we utilize the Foundry VTT for combat, but it's mostly for token placement. We only sometimes use the software's character mechanics. I mostly let my players use their paper sheets and physical dice. But for most sessions, we use theater of the mind. VTT software is great for enhancing a session experience, but it should never be the default. I like to use Foundry to aid in combat, keep track my player's abilities for story and encounter purposes (like what spells and skills they have), load up cool and gorgeous maps for them to explore, and add in animations and sound effects to add to the atmosphere. Sometimes I'll even craft custom maps in Dungeondraft if I think it will add to the encounter. But I mostly rely on their imaginations as I describe the scene. Even for encounters, I rarely have a set solution; I set up the scenario and encounter and let them figure out how they want to solve it. It's forced my players to get really creative (sometimes annoyingly so, like when they cast Banishment on my spellcasting nalfeshnee general instead of fighting it), but it's made the campaign so much more interesting and exciting! They often force me as the DM to get creative, as they'll utilize objects and spells in ways I never imagined or decide to double back to the wise scholar they met 20 sessions ago and ask him about the artifact they found isntead of waiting to find out its lore later in the storyline. Having a VTT as the default takes away from that experience. D&D really can't claim to be a tabletop game anymore if it goes that route
Yeah, we don't ever use a VTT, and I don't ever plan on using one. At absolute worst, if we went back into pandemic lockdown, I'd use something incredibly simple like Zoom. I have absolutely no desire to go down the VTT route - we play because we love getting together with friends and sharing munchies and playing with each others' pets while we play.
Plus, what if you want to run a scenario off-the-cuff instead of spending hours building it in a VTT?
Gosh, if only there were things like erasable mats and using table clutter as terrain...
@@philiponeill6903 During the lockdown, and whenever a player can't be there in person but is still able to play remotely, we have a camera that looks down at the gaming table where we have a battlemat, washable markers, minis, and some scatter terrain.
That is how we "play virtually".
@@MonkeyJedi99 That's the good thing about most current 2D VTTs. They are just an erasable map, or rather any map you find online or something that you can throw on the table and slap grid on for easy distance measurements etc. Great for combat, not essential for anything else. Having a rules/spells/items that you can quick search also helps. And by help I mean it takes less time, then search in paper book, so it's less immersion breaking/game disrupting. 2D VTTs are the perfect middle ground between imagination and physical representation of the scene. I had DMs find a random map on a spot because party went to an unexpected area, and we were ready to go in seconds. I can't imagine that happening in 3D VTT. I for one respect DM prep time and I can't imagine how much more work it will be for them to make adventure in that new 3D VTT. There is a reason why GM mode in many past D&D based video games never took off.
The whole "D&Done" business model seems to be focused on encourage even more sunk cost loyalty in their customers. You bought all the 5e books. You bought official 5e miniatures. You have buckets of dice.... now buy new books and a subscription and invest dozens of hours into learning how to properly use it and then teaching your friends how to play all over again, while also teaching them all the new little fiddly changes they made to the rules. Then have everyone remake their characters with these new rules. And then port those characters into the VTT and maybe buy a mini that looks kinda like their character, so they can use it on the VTT... etc etc etc... And now you've got a playerbase that won't abandon this dumpster fire for a few years while WotC tries to churn out more content to keep those people trapped as yet another group of RPG players who only play D&D and refuse to pay for any system that isn't D&D, because they're now sitting on years of abuse from WotC that makes them think that every RPG system will be the same exact experience and it will be miserable and expensive to start over from scratch.
The new playerbase of One D&D would probably be more volatile than the other editions of D&D. Moreover, they just might have overestimated the player population for VTT-RPGs. This new One D&D is a quick way to shoot their own franchise down, with lightning speed. I hope D&D dies a quick and painless death.
Yep, I agree. Another corporate land grab that will do more damage in the long run...excuse me, I believe Cthulhu is Calling.
Oned&d is literally against the main idea of new d&d players of not reading the books.
I assume some will get to older editions stay at 5e, and all.
Also after all the name is D& Done
So. I started playing DnD via VTT. And before that, CRPGs with TTRPG-Rulesets (i.e. Neverwinter Night and such).
I created the same character on a character-sheet in a pdf, as well on DnD-Beyond. I definitely prefer the latter.
Later, I also bought several books digitally on DnDB to have more options.
Now, with in mind, I don't think people should hate the options One DnD would bringt towards VTT, BUT, at least in my opinion, I don't think this means you can't still run the game life at the table.
Yes, it all comes down to how this will all turn out in the future exactly, but since people still use "Theatre of Mind" for playing their games, I doubt we'll be forced onto playing everything in VTT.
You still will be able to use your books from 5e no matter what, you'll still be able to use your minis, dice, and what not. - BUT, what I would suggest, and WotC wouldn't do that, is if you buy something physically, you'll also get a virtual equivalent, at least if it's something offical, like a book.
Because the biggest downside of DnDB was and is, that if you already own books, you'd have to pay for them again, and that's just nonsense.
Having to learn and teach your firends the new rules or how to play? Let's be honest, of you switched between Editions, or even Rulesets DnD->Pathfinder->DSA->Whatever, this would also apply.
To your last point, my group and I for once, we play DnD5e and PF2e at the moment, with both systems haven their pros and cons. And while we know there are other systems out there, most of us wouldn't want to invest too much time in learning another one, but that's how it is. OneDnD wouldn't change that.
Enjoyed hearing your perspective on the matter.
As a new player at age 44, I would never have the opportunity to play D&D in a table setting. My wife and I have a homestead in rural Arkansas and, lets just say, D&D is not well known in my vicinity. Vtt's have made it possible for me to experience this amazing game and I have shared it with dozens of other friends, all of whom are scattered around the world. I can understand the desire to keep things as they are but doing so would exclude a large percentage of the new players. I would also add that vtt's add a lot of value for people that have limited recourses a few of which are: saves travel time and expenses, allows for participation of players from a wide array of regions, gives a larger player pool to allow players to miss a secession and have minimal impact on the overall group experience.
Look forward to watching your content going forward. Keep on keepin on!
they could just make ANOTHER game, then we'd have two great games! D&D doesnt have to be everything. they are already trying to turn it into MTG, it doesnt have to be elder scrolls aswell
NW AR here, and I feel your pain...
I think this is the inflection point for D&D. This is the point where the pendulum swings from "making our imaginations as real as possible", to "wow we can make our imagination real through virtual space now." As nerds and creatives worldwide can attest, this is arguably still a really fun thing to be on the horizon, despite its drawbacks.
The reality is that its also interwoven with business, that must be profitable. On the flip side, that pendulum is swinging from "hey i'd love to make a product we can all enjoy" to "wow, we can make a lot of money doing this really fun thing"... and that is the unfortunate frightening angle.
Personally I think there is going to be a Bethesda style Creation Club where people can put models and terrain into an economy. nautrally I'm not quite optimisitic about it.
Sure it may have drawbacks but I have aphantasia so i cant make my imaginations real you know. I see this, even if it fails as a good thing, existing VTTs will need to do better to keep their users
I wonder how Camp D&D, or even Critical Role (which is planning on defecting to their own indie system), will be affected.
And/or ideological. WotC have been getting far less shy and subtle about their positions.
@@nevisysbryd7450 lmao shut up
I was excited for what came next, but when I saw 1D&D being all about digital game space, I, as a minatures painter an XPS foam terrain builder was like "This isn't for me at all"
100% they will lose the hardcore players, but the Twitch gamers will love it. Also there will be a LOT of resistance from people who love mini's and actual physical game maps and dice rolling. Hard pass for me. Computers do not belong at my RPG table.
I always saw VTT's as a way to play with your friends who you can't sit around a table with because they are too far away. It's nice and it's good if you don't want to lose the experience of playing with them, but I feel like it should always be the last resort option. My fondest memories of gaming are from the weekends I would spend with my group in high school, getting there and getting everything set up, playing some three dragon ante, looking over and working on our character sheets, then going to sleep before beginning a whole day and night of the game. The tabletop is one of the most important parts of ttrpg imo and I'll never give it up.
Great video. Especially the Apple Ecosystem comparison is spot on. And yeah, I think you are onto something with your predictions. Especially the part about 10yrs olds just getting into the whole hobby just via fully digital stuff will be a problem in the future.
The appeal of TRPGs (or Pen & Paper RPGs) was always the whole "theater of mind" aspect of it.
I remember when I first got suckered into it, more than 20 years ago. A classmate of mine asked me to come over to "play a game", so I went to his house. From there we ventured (was only 2 minutes walking) to one of his neighbours' houses where a slightly older friend of him lived (think me+friend being 13/14yrs and the friend 15/16yrs), which I didn't know.
Turns out that friend was an avid P&P RPG player and DM. There were also 2 (or 3? it's 20+ yrs ago, my memory is failing me) more guys my age, who I didn't know yet at that point. So they all talk about "let's play 'The Game'" and I was like "WTH does that even mean?" when we all sat around a round table in the basement of the DM friend.
Everybody but me pulled out a character sheet and dice and the DM then asked me if I'd like to join "The Game". Nobody in the group had explained to me yet what "The Game" was about or how to play it. So I shyly replied "I'll just observe for now if that's ok.", but the DM was insisting "You know, it is more fun if you'd join. Here, I'll explain the basics to you...." and *boom* 30 minutes and a newly rolled char later we are all having a blast for hours and actual years to come.
It was one of the most wonderful and remarkable experiences in my life. So many good memories, especially about all the shenanigans we did that were not exactly covered by the rules so we had be creative. And it is that creative aspect that most likely will get, maybe not fully lost, but at the very minimum severely handicapped by whatever digital version WotC will come up with, since software has to adhere to rules, and creating dynamic enough rules to allow players (and DMs) to be as creative as the theater of mind is a herculean task that no one company can implement in my opinion. If it is doable at all.
Yep technology is constantly changing the ways that people interact and relate to one another. Nostalgia always has a melancholy tinge of romance for the way things used to be. People won’t necessarily be having a less rewarding experience than you did because they are using different technologies to interface.
Your comments about how the online experience having been established as so normal will take away incentives to play at the table is something that's already been developing as a result of VTT proliferation. I tend to run multiple campaigns simultaneously, and all had to be moved to Roll20 or Fantasy Grounds during the Plague Times, but getting them back to a "live from the table" experience was very difficult. The conveniences of digital assets from the comfort of your home without having to drive or commit too much time per week took its toll on my own groups. Going into a future where there's more microtransactions for customized assets that you can't take with you will only foster that online reliance. Hard enough to motivate people to a live table when it was free, now they will want to get maximum use of the online format to justify how much they paid on digital avatars.
ey it's hard to have time 5 hours for a session and if we need to add +1/2 hours on the traffic at least, i think is probably too much for a lot of people.
Gotta have those microtransactions in the form of minis, maps and set pieces
@@cuauth 5 hours is a very long session though. And leaving your house and not having people on a screen but in person is invaluable to me.
As someone who did and does both, I prefer IRL sessions. But not everyone lives in a big city with many players. Some of us would have to drive an hour or more for a proper session like that.
One of my friends got one of these tables with build in screen. So she is using roll20 on a big screen while playing at the table.
Good points all around. One key factor will be how Open Gaming License is effected. If Wizards tries to repeat their 4th edition mistake by restricting what print products can be sold, we could easily see a repeat of the humbling experience that was Pathfinder 1.0. After all, the last time Wizards sold D&D dropped to number 2 in popularity was when Wizards tried this same forced move to digital, and triggered a backlash that lasted until 5th edition made peace.
As long as print versions are sellable, and as long as the deep lore is found in print but not in the rules-only, no context or depth style of DNDBeyond, this pattern could repeat.
And if they do go full digital, there will be a market for in person roleplaying for another gaming system to take up. After all, Stranger Things, Critical Role, and everything else that has made roleplaying popular today depicts in person interaction. Not the online gaming of, say, The Guild. The cat is out of the bag on in person roleplaying being fun, and I do not see any video game that can compete for roleplayer's attention.
It's not about the rules, it's about the people you meet and the stories you make together. And that is what will save in person rpgs.
I was thinking the same thing about the shift towards Pathfinder with the release of 4e. I'm thinking its going to happen again and D&D is going to see a decline. I've personally move fully to Pathfinder 2e after seeing 6e.
I agree but not so much about Pathfinder 1. That is a great rule set and still the rule set of choice for one of my two groups…
@@alexandersvideopicks8735 The point they were trying to make is that when D&D 4e came out, the backlash against it was so severe that Paizo came out using the D&D SRD to create Pathfinder, which severely lowered WotC's market share by providing what people wanted (D&D 3.5) in a more accessible and polished format.
I can tell you don't play with preteens. Lol
I ran a game for my kids... this system will crush print media.
I saw this as an avid book COLLECTOR
@@MaleusMaleficarum I pray you are wrong. Some of us simply do not and will not have the ability to switch to a purely digital format.
Although I agree with some of this, I'm now a Foundry Vtt DM with two different campaigns of 4. Problem is that if I couldn't play online, I couldn't play at all because my friends and players are all over the place. I left D&D years ago because campaigns at the table fizzled years ago. It's now back and we're having fun with a VTT platform. I don't know what the answer is, but I do see the value in having an online option and I think there are many that feel the same way.
Having an online option is fine. I agree with it. But turning DnD (or TRPGs in general) into more and more video-game tactical turn-based cRPG/aRPG is not good direction in my opinion. I only enjoyed playing online most when it was just voice chat and rolls and nothing on screen apart when combat had to happen and it was simple black-white tactical map, but everything was still theather of mind. Now it all looks more like video game and strips your from your imagination.
@@honestbenny That places an enormous load on the DM, especially with a ruleset as simplistic as 5e. GURPS might be more rules-heavy, but at the same time, it makes things feel more real. The actual issue of D&D is that combat is a numbers battle, whereas a few enabled rules in GURPS will allow for more creative moves that don't massacre the GM's sanity. Things like targeting limbs or weapons and the effect cumulative wounds to them. I'm not saying D&D should be GURPS, but it should adapt some of its tools. It's considerably more satisfying and if there's any brutality, it will generate itself.
Great analysis. If this becomes the trend, it's increasingly sad because playing around a table is easily 10x more fun than playing online. The social aspect of the game is what makes it so great. Playing online just doesn't capture that the same way as around the table.
Probably going to end up with everyone at a table together, but they are all on their phone/lap top. Which I have been to some games where everyone was on their phone already, so maybe that isn't far away.
Its indeed more fun than playing online but VTT offers something really great for those ppl trying to play D&D from afar.
Tell me, American, how am I going to play around a table when my family is in another country? Are you going to buy my tickets and new home in your worthless excuse of a fucking country? No, you're not, because that's apparently Communism according to your kind. So instead of abusing us for not being American, maybe accept that fact that D&D is a worldwide game and always has been for its entirety. It's time to get over your fucking bigotry and racism and accept that the USA is not the only country in the world
While this comment isn't entirely wrong, it feels ignorant to the circumstances that a chunk of people are in. It isn't possible to play DND at a physical table with people from 5+ timezones spanning all times of day across the world even if they all wanted to, but if everyone agrees to it we can all gather in a VTT which first and foremost lifts a lot of burdens off the DM that come with running a game purely in a discord server (or something similar) which is the only other alternative that is viable in these sorts of circumstances. It clearly isn't the same as in person and never will be, but there are people I neither can nor will ever play with other than online due to logistics and while theater of the mind in voice chat is fine sometimes there is something to be said for having an actual space to have you character move through and to feel the lay of the land, set up tactics on the grid, to not have to ask "how far away is X" or "how many dudes are there still alive" etc. When you are hundreds if not thousands of miles away from the other players and you get to view the same set on a VTT and explore that space with them you feel more interconnected and social than would otherwise be the case and there is nothing sad about being able to feel closer to friends across the world. If people live close enough to play in person and it means that much to them they will just play in person regardless of VTTs. Also playing the odds there are groups where while they feasibly could manage to get everyone together at a singular location, due to nerves or uncertainty only ever collectively take the plunge into playing at all because of the convenience of online that will end up realizing hey, this is so cool that we DO want to play in person to get the authentic experience.
I love playing in person with my friends but the scheduling between multiple adults with different jobs has made us not be able to play for damn near a year... so I'm just hoping this vtt won't be as limiting as people are worried about. I just want to play the game regardless of whether it's in person or not as long as it's still with friends
It's honestly great to hear someone point these things out. The One D&D VTT was something I heard a lot of people excited about, but I've been more concerned than excited. It's definitely going to be "wait and see" for me.
I find myself adopting this attitude more and more with each completed or ended adventure. I refused VTT play for nearly 10 years before being forced to pick up R20 thanks to the pandemic. And the games my group had there were easily the worst.
@@alternatebanana3670 sounds like a skill issue
@@alternatebanana3670 you will get better at online tabletop over time.
Imo it's best for Theater of the Mind, digital battlemaps aren't as fun as real minis, though that may change in Wizards of the Cash' new program.
People are often always excited to consoom
@@priestesslucy3299 Theatre of the Mind eliminates the need for a VTT - Zoom, Discord chat, etc are good enough for a table-top like theatre of the mind experience. Optionally add: a dice roller application (or just roll real dice on camera, or off camera if you trust your players and/or don't care about if they cheat a bit), and D&D Beyond or some equivalent if you want electronic instead of physical character sheets. A VTT is only necessary if you want a convenient remote and/or virtual way to replicate miniatures on grid map.
Well said. As I pointed out to a buddy of mine, Hasbro/WotC aren't aiming to produce the best RPG they can, they're aiming to produce the ONLY RPG left on the market.
Agreed.
They can’t compete with free. There will always be other rpgs out there
@@davidmc8478 Oh, but they can. Just try convincing people to play other games, even free or very cheap ones. Most are totally brainwashed already.
That’s capitalism, baybee!
@@colbyboucher6391 wait, so you're argument is that if WOTC makes a better product, people will go to the better product, and that's bad?
The point about stunting creativity makes a lot of sense as I've seen it happen with D&D Beyond's virtual character sheet. I've encountered numerous people who aren't aware of certain mechanics because it's not coded into their sheet. The most frequent one being ability checks. Many people don't realise you can apply any attribute to any skill (such as Str(Intimidation) or Con(Athletics)) because the interactive buttons only permit the default attribute-skill combinations.
The players that didn’t understand certain mechanics are not “less creative” they simply just did not read the rules. Regardless if someone read the dnd manual or not, they are not going to change in creativity. You’re acting as if creativity and knowledge about the system’s mechanics line up with each other.
@@noodlesyoutuber players become more creative with what they chose to do in DnD the more they understand their potential options. The DnD manuals are dated and vague with major mechanics and details and make for poor reading - the DM is the way most players learn the rules and if basic mechanics aren't possible with major digital sheets it becomes much harder to explain to players that they can do these things.
If you genuinely don't think there is a direct link between knowing the rules and mechanics and level of creativity in DnD I wonder if you have ever actually played. Coaching new players you immediately see the creative cogs beginning to spin as soon as they begin grasping the options available to them
I'm a very early native to the DnD virtual space. Started playing persistent RP worlds, PvP servers and the like in Neverwinter Nights when I was 7. The decade of play in NWN and ancient maptools whose names I can't remember stick out as a remarkable time where I was playing DnD pretty much every single day with countless folks from across the world.
These days, me and my friends have started getting into 5E and we use Talespire. Despite it's clunkiness and limitations, it's been excellent for getting my buddies who don't play tabletop in any form into DnD; the shiny coating of a video game lures them into the chaotic collaboration that is truly DnD to me. The same way Neverwinter Nights did back in the day. Needless to say, I came into this video annoyed and expecting to disagree, and I did.
But you got me at the end. In the halcyon days before Bethesda's horse armor, this VTT would have been a gift from the heavens. Not anymore, of course. MTX will reign, and I believe your assessment is correct that other TTRPGs will be hurt by this. I suppose now I can only hope that WotC's VTT bombs hard.
I have no doubt that they will do the least for their customers while turning it into a predatory closed-circuit micro-transaction dumpster fire. Their product keeps giving less for the same price or more. Spelljammer, Ravenloft, looking at you. My main concern that coincides with your points, is that newer players having access to the rules as written will take the stance that rules come first and not the DM's rulings and produce of generation of rules lawyers forgetting the simple truth that 0% of the rules are needed to run a D&D game.
Is having a solid set of rules bad?
That's a great point. I have no doubt this shift will limit not only the players ability to role-play, but also the DM's ability to run the game freely.
Strange to argue on THIS channel that rules don't matter
@@jamesb3848 No, but enforcing bendable rules as if they are iron law is.
@@colbyboucher6391 Rules matter. But flexibility in their application in order to facilitate a smoother and more fun game is at the very essence of role-playing games.
Not even mentioning stuff like house rules and wider issue of rule modding.
"The more you tighten your grip, Tarkin, the more star systems will slip through your fingers" This is something I expect WotC is going to experience, they will get a large chunk, but will find converting any more to a difficult proposition. After 5 years or so they will find that new players aren't going to convert because the price of entry will be too big, or they will keep bringing down the price discouraging current customers for buying knowing that the price will come down soon. Either way I expect growth, a plateau, and a push to convert more that results in an alienation of the base. To be clear this isn't prophesy, it's just pattern recognition.
I've always loved that quote, it fits many situations
I suspect a subscription model could be in the future of DnD, Dndbeyond already has one. My worry about that is they push forward a faster release of subclasses and monsters. Netflixes list of endless terrible movies is a good example of how subscription models can jank any level of quality.
@@fallonrishiva7841 the subscription model isn't inherently bad, the theory is that in order to keep customers subscribed they need to keep providing value, Costco, is a positive example. I'm less concerned about one D&D providing poor content as I am about micro transactions. I suspect every aspect of homebrew is going to be blocked as much as possible if it is something they can sell you. "You can't access this mechanic for your hombrew unless you buy XYZ class, module, spell pack, or expansion" seems like a much greater threat.
@@chiepah2 What's the costco model? We don't have them in Ireland
@@fallonrishiva7841 Ah, a warehouse store with a yearly subscription. You can't even enter the store without a membership. Once you are in it's bulk items at a small markup
I can imagine using the VTT tools for simple things like "this is where you stand compared to anyone else" is useful. But I much prefer theatre of the mind and just some map squares for a general layout.
I use both theater of the mind and visual maps. It depends on the encounter and also how many players I am running. The more players you have, the more need you have for an actual map, to show positioning and environment, and to allow the player to strategize. As a DM you don't build every inch of the map in your mind, and you can't relay every single thing in the environment to your players. Your players also will often not know what to ask about, as far as the environment, which might impact their decisions in the encounter, because they only have the information you give them, which can only be so detailed. You can't know what you don't know.
I've been pen and paper gaming for 40 years and DM'ing for a good chunk of that. While the author has very good points I think the big one that is missing is that dnd and roleplaying in general was dying out. Most of my friends simply assumed that when our generation stopped playing, that would be it. If the "younger" generation wants microtransactions and multiple conveniences, well then so be it.
I feel that if dnd (one of my least favorite systems for spell casting) increases the size of the pie, other systems will benefit, even if their market share is smaller.
Those younger players will play and love dnd and then as they age look around and see other systems. Maybe Critical Role will branch out to an Aberrant game...
When was roleplaying "dying out"?
TTRPGs are bigger now than they have even been, DnD 5e is the by far mosts successful edition of DnD ever and thus also the most successful TTRPG ever, and that's before One D&D have been released.
The TTRPG hobby and industry have been on an upward trajectory for 10+ years at this point, without locked in ecosystems, so this is not a question of what "the younger generation wants", but more a question of what WotC shareholders want.
@@Adrian_of_Arcane_Lore it’s also the most oversimplified ttrpg out there. Me and my friends started on 5E and it was very easy to get into and run. You didn’t even need to know all the rules. But then trying to get into other ttrpgs was just too much as the expectation of simplicity just wasn’t there. Too much extra dice rolling and math. Look at Traveller or halo mythic. We wanted to do a halo campaign but to us it seemed overly convoluted to do things like “roll to hit, hit challenge, roll where you hit, roll damage, if special damage roll what injury they have. Etc. confirming your 20 seems way too much. As successful as 5E was I don’t think many people are branching out to these other non simplified ttrpgs
@@artoriasoftheabyss2907 That is just straight up false. I've played over a dozen rpgs and if anything 5E is actually one of the more complicated ones I've encountered so far. I haven't heard of this Halo rpg you're mentioning, but Traveler is definitely simpler than 5E. Character creation is pretty much automatic and the main resolution roll is just: roll 2D6+Skill over a set number and that can hardly be called complicated math. That's not even mentioning the hundreds of rpgs out there that actually go in for being lightweight and simple.
And younger generation doesnt want microtransactions. They are being manipulated into spending money on them with basically zero regulations around the manipulation techniques used by these companies.
Critical role is not representative of gamers. It's a bunch of pals, putting on a show for cash... actual gaming content is minimal, because the format doesn't suit watching people move mini's about on a playmat for 4 hours, so we get 4 hours of funny accents and talking instead... which has never happened in any Face to face game I have ever played. Dungeoneering. combat and puzzle solving are kicked to the kerb in favour of talking and boredom LOL One DnD will have zero impact on the hardcore gamers who uses playmats and figures.
It's nice to see someone going against the grain on this. So many YTs are praising this, which is fine that's their opinion but in the next decade D&D will not be recognizable to what it is today.
I completely agree with your take on the subject.
Yes, but how many of them are praising it *Because* they're D&D youtubers and they're built on the D&D hype machine, without which their channel would collapse? Certainly some are genuinely excited, others might be blinded by their own incentives. (Not naming names, as I'm not a mind reader, but just keep the possibility in mind)
You can just play a different edition. And there isn’t “one way to play”.
@@zpfriem I still have almost the entire 3rd and 3.5 library. With some books from 2nd, and updated resources, it wouldn't be difficult to make just about anything happen without worrying about new editions. I'd like to point out this same sort of thing happened whne 3.5 moved on to 4th and then 5th. PLENTY of players lost their minds about the changes, with some leaving the game forever or going to other systems, and others simply adapting. That'll happen here too.
This was my reaction as well. I expect those of us older players and DMs will do more homebrew... or old brew?
I disagree, if done right, this will help some newer players and DM's create dungeons if they aren't that great at making every detail dungeon, this is nothing but someone being fearful and hyping it up as that
Virtual Table Top software, Foundry specifically, has opened up a HUGE assortment of quality of life changes to DnD that I love. Instant math and one button clicks for checks. Near instant range finding. But it didn't simply stop at mimicking a table with pixels. I now do splash pages to give an eye level view of places and certain scenes, in these scenes I use heroforge portraits to illustrate entire conversations so the PCs have an NPC face to talk to. I have maps that parralax on their own to give me running rivers and traintracks, I have two programs (Dungeon Alchemist and RPGScenery) that I use to make all of this.
And DND One is going to have NONE of that extra stuff. It's 5 (or more) years late to the VTT game, and they're going to show off something that is miopic in scope and walled off from any other software. DND One is heralding the end of open-source D20 with this VTT.
"And DND One is going to have NONE of that extra stuff. It's 5 (or more) years late to the VTT game, and they're going to show off something that is miopic in scope and walled off from any other software. "
Yup. & They aren't even really the 1st to the 3d VTT game.
"DND One is heralding the end of open-source D20 with this VTT."
Not really, because the thing is they CAN'T. The licenses which allowed 'open-source D20' in the 1st place also mean other people can keep things going basically in perpetuity. So long as folks abide by the license terms they can keep making OGL products forever, based on prior WOTC stuff -OR- the works of other creators. And on the OSR side of things, the wall has already been broke. There are complete OGL compatible rules systems which AREN'T D&D, but some near cousin. More to the point, there are also Creative Commons licensed rulesets as well. WOTC can't really do much at all to stop that stuff from being created & sold.
Plus, technically, the whole OGL thing was always a bit of a scam anyway... because IP rights don't apply to game rules. This was settled legally decades ago with video games, the hammer just never fell in the TT-RPG industry because nobody took it to court.
World maps, town maps, weird geometry that you can only do in 3d modelling, hand-drawn maps, maps made on the fly because the players discovered an area you didn't expect... Total flexibility is a MUST HAVE in a VTT.
My favourite thing about Roll20 (and there's a lot to hate too) is that anything that's a JPEG will work.
THe player should still learn how to play the game without the easy button.
@@randomusernameCallin I don't think that's been called into question or relevant to the discussion at all. I don't believe anyone disagrees with this statement.
@@HeyyItsDaleVODS That is a problem with the VT out there.
I hope the VTT won’t kill off the “Real Table Top”. For me D&D is about sharing a meal and some drinks and rolling dice.
I do use a VTT but it’s for maps on a TV in my table. I find devices distracting at the table.
You can always keep playing other tabletop rpgs...
I doubt it'll outright kill it, it'll just be an alternative way to play
@@giantdwarf9491 I hope you are correct! Thanks for the positivity.
Yes! A fellow hybrid user! I'm the same way, haha.
Its been a dream of mine of playing physically with my two groups. But given the fact that we're all pretty spread out. One in Germany. Two in Finland. Two in Denmark. Myself in Sweden. One in Norway. For one group, and for the other we have 3 players from the previous group, myself and another guy from the USA. Playing IRL is not going to happen anytime soon for us. But still as long as things that keep the focus on the real tables. Shows like Critical Role and depictions like in stranger things. But if it starts being the norm to show off the VTT then oh boy.
These are solid points. You have me convinced. Also, been hoping to get into other TTRPGs recently, but family and friends are glued to D&D, so I'm stuck with a system that frankly, I don't like all that much.
I feel your pain, it really isn’t that good
Same. Thankfully I GM another group using D6 from WEG. A few tweaks, and its refreshing and so much fun to GM. 5E is the "oatmeal" of RPG's.
Also, on your video, specifically, the One D&D VTT is making a mistake in trying to use Software that mimics MMORPGs to allow us to build our own "worlds." (Namely Unreal Engine X) (4 or 5 currently)
I think these worlds can be better imagined without the limitations of a concrete set of building blocks, no doubt that will begin to feel like "Digital Legos" and will
require us to purchase more and higher tiers of the VTT Subscription to access the design that we desire. This is where the money would be made.
Trying to be more like an MMORPG is the biggest criticism levied against 4th Edition. Just saying.
I feel like you won't need much props for DnD.
If you're a DM with 2h of prep time before the session, you would just place a bunch of simple geometry and 2d placeholders and just write "wall, rock, mud, etc" on the objects
Ironically enough, I feel like a lot of the folks complaining are not actually the ones who would suffer. People who are obsessed with running RAW games and as-written settings should bloody love this shit.
As a big homebrewer, my opinions are pretty similar to this video's. It's just weird to see where people's head are at.
They don't call it Ca$hbros for nothing
@@monsieurdorgat6864 I homebrew a ton, also, but it doesn't change the fact that since WotC hired that new head of their "Digital" Marketing, their whole direction has been away from an in-person style of Tabletop RPG. - Especially if they are launching their own VTT and pushing towards a largely (dare I say Monopolized) digital platform.
They tried to do this with Magic the Gathering, but people love to collect "tangible" cards... (I think the proof is there on this part, look at the history of Sports Cards and later TCGs that followed.)
"...but those are my childhood dreams..."
Man, that's a great quote. Really sums it up.
I disagree with the argument that visual aids remove players' ability to imagine things. There is a reason why people who play online look for VTTs instead of just having a group phone call. Anchoring our imagination to visual aids is what helps players put themselves into the story. Not wanting to use One D&D because it doesn't fit your preferred playstyle doesn't mean it's a bad product.
Yeah it's like these ding songs have never played with a grid mat and minis before
Yeah I mean, there are pictures in the damn books. You are telling me that the Monster Manual would be BETTER without pictures? Or any of the premade campaigns would be better without all the maps etc? War-gaming (one of the roots of DND) by it's very DESIGN, REQUIRES VISUAL AIDS.
It's not that it is a bad product. It is that the "very good" (maybe... Wizards has a history of sucking at digital aids) product will kill the lessor known choices. Long term, this could crush the hobby as a whole. It has happened before. I do agree that visual aids are frequently more helpful than not. I also think he may be exaggerating the point, a bit, since most will still opt to play in person if it is at all possible.
It doesn't remove it, it reduces the occurrence. Because it is harder to imagine a different situation then the one actually depicted in front of you immediately
yes let's happily ignore all the other arguments about how wotc's market weight and resources will cause most other VTTs to have to close up, or the walled garden microtransaction hell wotc will push us into, or the decreasing variety of play that an official VTT will engender
If it can give anyone some hope on the gameplay aspect of this, I’ve run several campaigns using a VTT as my battle map and haven’t found many of the creativity problems noted here. My players still continue to do all of the crazy things that they did in theatre of the mind. I also just use it as a substitute for having the physical map, it’s still very possible to all be in the same room when running it, but it will save you quite a bit on minis and such, even if you buy them from the VTT.
Yeah, as soon as I saw that VTT my first thought was micro-transactions. It looks cool and call, but if I have to spend a huge amount of time creating 3d maps when there are tons of 2d maps out there, that's going to slow me down from buying into this. Maybe it will others.
It's really probable that you are going to be able to use a 2d map as a floor and basically just the minis as the feature
@@alexllenas4607 I really hope this is the case. The 3d aspect looks terrible. As long as I can lay down my own 2d map and look at it from a top down view, I will be happy.
@@dwil0311 I thought the 3d aspect looked amazing, but I've been wanting to play on Talespire so might just be preference.
So, in other words are they finally calling it quits on Dungeon & Dragons Online..?
@@JonBondgsr same here, but for dose with potato PCs or just don't like 3D maps would be super easy to implement a 2D mode with a top-down camera and just the floor
I've been playing in VTT's using the least amount of features. Focusing only on Dice roller, character sheets and maybe an occasional visual image. Too much minis/terrains make a game into a boardgame. Too many tools will bog down the game pulling people out of the action flow. The game becomes much faster to play with less tools.
I've been drifting this way after having fun with all the bells and whistles on foundry
Agreed, it was painful trying to step away from premade maps and just use mspaint doodles.
I fully agree, the VTT slow down the games more than enhance it.
This is why I like roll20, it is visually basic. And as I have been playing, I have been using less and less of the features.
@@philippemarcil2004 I've found that Foundry makes things run much faster, partly because of how every ability or spell can be put into The chat window for everyone to read by themselves.
As someone who only recently started playing 5e a year ago, I am super excited for all that, except the micro transactions because they are must likely to use loot boxes or other manipulative tactics. I feel like a lot of your points are assuming the tools are going to limit gameplay without giving them the benefit of the doubt when they explicitly said they were working on tools to make it easy. If the tools do turn out to limit gameplay so much that all the other benefits are out weighed then less people will use it, which means more people playing the current method like you want. It doesn't make sense to be so against what would be a subjectively better experience for some players when the other niche and older games will continue to exist, for exactly all the reasons you stated that they are still going to be better in some aspects over the new way.
I think the main point is that new players are going to miss out on the old hobby-and that’s a real shame.
Personally, the thing that brought me to ttrpgs was that they were so *tangible*. It was just me and my friends, telling a story, in one room. It was art in its purest form, totally divorced from any market forces (after buying one book to share), and produced only for ourselves.
It’s so rare today to find a hobby like that, and I think it provides a lot of value that a vrpg can’t match-especially when it’s a vertically integrated profit-generating system.
You’re right, the new players won’t know what they’re missing, and that’s really sad.
Personally, Theatre of the mind gave me the best experience of all, miniatures and maps are too limiting, for me, I only need a rough sketch of what the room or dungeon looks like, just to not forget what's where, but mostly only if a place is a recurring one, or if the session ends before the the job is done.
The only digital elements I'm comfortable with, are pdf files of manuals and such, just for a quick check or if the manual can't be used at the moment.
Battlemaps are the same for me, basic dimensions and positioning - miniatures, a dry erase marker on a gridded map, or tokens on a gridded VTT map will do
Yeah, I think the issue here is more of capitalism than the service itself. If this same thing was run by a smaller company as an optional side product for those with a specific interest, that would be fine. There is definitely some pretty major issues pointed out here when a company's financial incentive would be to enforce a default style of play and one all-encompassing platform.
My battlemaps are always paper or flexible whiteboard (I got AJ Picket's awesome battle mats and have been pretty happy with them!) and meant to be drawn, and drawn over as the environment changes. AoE spells aught to destroy that environment - the game is more fun when it does!
I lack the sketching skill so it's pure narrative word painting for me
When I was a kid playing D&D back in the 70s/80s none of us could afford miniatures. We had to pool our money just to buy the books! About the only thing we had plenty of were dice, notebook paper, graph paper, and pencils. And that was really all we needed.
@@priestesslucy3299 You only need a rough floor plan, it's just geometrics, basic 2d geometric shape, nothing fancy, just to give an idea of the general area.
The shape of the room/s, couple of squares or circles for buildings, columns and such, very simple, very minimal, I only use it so it's easier for planning and team formation.
Excellent points here Baron. At the end of the day, this game is still the playable with pencil, paper, and your imagination. As a 30 year old video gamer who grew up on Warcraft 3 and Age of Empires, I know the constraints of entering the digital sphere. I think Wotc is abandoning its true audience in favor of taking a major risk on this next new generation and going all in on the digital aspect of things. And as someone who has played online before, sitting down at the table in person with your best buds to loot dungeons and fight dragons CANNOT be replaced.
Are they making playing on the VTT a requirement in any form?
@@zwojack7285 Not that I am aware of. But thats not the point. The point is, if Wotc is focusing heavily on one thing, in this case going digital, it means they aren't focusing their attention, efforts, and design as heavily on other things.
However THE key underlining take-away word from all this is *microtransactions*... :/
And for a majority of players at this point that experience at the table simply isn't possible. The people who I want I play D&D with live in four different time zones. VTT's are the only way I get to play the game. So for a player like me? The OneD&D program looks awesome. Only thing I'm worrying about us pricing.
D&D Beyond's aesthetic microtransactions (for dice, for character sheets, for icons) is a pretty good point on the direction the D&D VTT would feel comfortable going in.
yep, this is the canary in the coal mine that even many who are critical of the possible future of d&d forget. WotC *already* charge for MTX. couple that with even a cursory knowledge of how quickly and out of control MTX got in video games and... yeah, it's not a happy prognosis
@@user-jq1mg2mz7o To be fair, WotC didn't create that concept, DnDB had MTX well before WotC bought it. But yes, it will very likely act as stepping stone.
First: Excellent video! Very well thought out and explained. I love that you really dug into the details of the complications (that are a very real thing) that this style of DnD can have on the game and surrounding community as a whole. You got a subscriber here my friend!
My opinion:
It's so conflicting that I'm both excited about the prospect of it but also completely agree with him. As someone who's played DnD since my childhood with everything from drawn dungeons on graph paper to 3D printed dungeons and roll20, I've had the pleasure of enjoying every aspect of the game in every form. I love drawing simple maps for a quick dungeon run on paper or dry erase mats. I also love 3D printing terrain and miniatures but I also love designing detailed and colorful maps in various VTT platforms. ALL of these appeal to me for different types of campaigns, styles and environments. To me, this is new and fresh and can definitely offer new aspects to the game, just as each of the aforementioned styles do, but at the same time he hits the nail on the head. It absolutely can limit creativity and whether we like it or not, it will set a new precedent for how DnD should be played to the newer younger generations who'd rather have the flashiness of TRPG DnD as a videogame rather than an actual TRPG. I won't even dig into the validity of the dangers of microtransactions. The more money you invest in something, the more important it is to you psychologically, and the entire younger generation of gamers are being heavily influenced to believe this. Adding this system into DnD makes someone who's already invested in it less likely to consider moving to another platform or even style of play for that matter.
It's like trying to get your kid to play the original Pokemon games, but they don't want to because the newer games are more colorful and detailed. They don't see the magic in the game the same way as those who experienced it when it was new. I can play any old version and enjoy it (the original Final Fantasy 7 is still my favorite of the franchise), while also enjoying the new content (the FF7 remake) but that is a hard understanding to impress on a younger generation who's grown up surrounded by advanced digital detail. I'm not a doomsday cynic who believes that all DnD will shift to this and all other styles of play will become obsolete but I suspect it will have an impact in some capacity on the future of the game. All good innovation still comes with cons at the end of the day. We'll just have to be understanding of that and take it as it is. It is ultimately up to us as the player base to preserve the styles we love and teach the younger generations there is magic in those as well.
Strongly agree. I'm having a heck of a time getting my players to put their computers away even when we are all sitting around the table. Why is this better?
By start, if you play on a presential table, then the vtt is not for you, the thing is comparing the vtt of the new Onednd with the ones that are already online, like roll20, ehich yes, is online, but stays simple without payment or high spec computers and stay simple enough to be compared with a physical table in a way. Vtt's are not 'better', is just a different way to play, but the newvtt of onednd is kinda... excesive, trying to make it too specific and complicated to almost be a videogame
The point for my wife, our daughter, and myself has always been to unplug the tech when we play Tabletop RPGs, not the opposite.
I have to work on a computer, I don't want the computer to be integral to my Tabletop gaming experience. Especially having grown up without needing it.
I hate to say this, but if your players can't spend a little time with you without constantly doing something else on the computers, maybe they don't really like dnd.
@@VMSelvaggio And nothing is changing. None of this prevents anyone from having a 100% offline experience.
@@VMSelvaggio This 100%. I only really got into D&D seriously again during Covid to get off a screen with my wife and son.. I did have another games with friends during that time on roll 20 but as soon as it was safe we all went back to table top again .. and some of us had bought 3d printers and it's just a much different experience that we all enjoy a lot more.
I think with your ending argument about microtransactions, it actually highlights an area were competing VTTs can fit in. Roll20 and Talespire both allow (or for Talespire will soon allow) for custom imports of objects without cost to the user.
With the probable WOTC microtransactions, Roll20 and Talespire have an arguable edge to compete on.
Talespire's biggest hurdle currently is justifying full price to non-DM's, really if they wanted to secure their future, they'd release a $5 Player Only version to connect to DM purchased games.
Also. I think this fear about new generations not choosing to use traditional tabletop is a bit unfair to those of us who live in areas where D&D does not have in-person opportunities, or what little their is conflicts with our schedule. VTTs like Roll20 have been a godsend for people like us. Plus, with new generations having misconceptions, its the duty of the prior generations to teach good habits, and its the duty of the new generations to point out when the old generation is stuck with their own bad habits (see, gatkeeping based on race or sex for example).
This One-D&D is a change, but nothing is being lost forever, the old stuff still exists, and can still be played online and traditionally. I think we all need to calm down a bit in this comment section.
"nothing is being lost" you say, when the closed ecosystem and IP laws of the software market of the past 30 years has destroyed innovation, variety, open access and lost countless digital media and formats. you'll come back to this comment in 10 years time when a v2 of the VTT invalidates half of your purchases and realise how wrong you were.
hell we already see this in the tabletop space. XWing 2nd edition? literally all of Games Workshop's bullshit? it doesn't take a lot for brand power, market dominance and the good faith of people that aren't willing to be critical of companies to well and truly diminish what was once good about a hobby. sure, the free form imagination won't ever "die", but tell me the non-wotc, nonpathfinder market is doing well in the current day after decades of d&d dominance and tell me that not dying is considered a victory
@@FlameQwert Jesus Christ man, you okay? Did the rereleas of the star wars trilogy hurt you this badly?
Your taking a stance like this is all the sign of an apocalypse and the beginning of cyberpunk or something. Calm down buddy. Get some water. If the hobby falls apart to the degree you claim then move on to something else. You are more than your hobbies, you don't need to feel so threatened. I'll put in some tea for you.
I watched this video assuming that it was going to just be a rant. As I haven't been focused on D&D5e, the new VTT hadn't even been in my field of view, so I didn't really know what you were going to talk about. I'm impressed with how well you articulated well formed and logical arguments, and honestly as someone who loves 3rd party products, sometimes more than official content for any game I play, I'm concerned about what this could mean for RPGs in general, not just for D&D gamers.
Thank you for coming out with this video. You’ve left me with a lot to think about. Well said and well done.
I’ll be honest, I got caught up with the VTT because I was actually excited just to have a platform that was potentially easier to use (Roll20 still vexes me), and didn’t consider all this. Unfortunately most of my games are played online. I can only hope that there are schools that will host gaming clubs that focus on tabletops, theater of mind, and miniature and terrain painting to exercise creativity of expression. It’s also up to parents of new d&d players not to shove an iPad in front of their kids’ face to distract them with the game as their first exposure. As older community members we have a responsibility to teach the younger crowd and not let them get caught up in it. I still think OneD&D could be an interesting supplement, but you’re absolutely right, if we’re not careful, it has the potential to bring d&d and TTRPGs in general from being great hobbies and games to a passing fad that will quickly drown after the hype is over from Stranger Things.
FoundryVTT has been my go to VTT for a while now. I got tired of Roll20 and switched to Foundry. An initial buy-in from the DM leads to no monthly fees and it has a lot of tools Roll20 just lacks.
I'd recommend it if you're still looking for one that works better than Roll20, though I'll be honest and tell you that the up front learning curve is a bit higher.
The only thing nice about tablets is being able to have character sheets and books loaded on it so you can get to things fast. That's all.
I feel like this is hand wringing and doomsaying.
Paraphrasing: "OneD&D VTT means players won't be able to think creatively, just like how minis limit creativity, but moreso."
This statement is already absurd. Different people react differently to tools and props. *Some* people will feel more limited in VTT, and more free in theater of the mind. But then some will struggle to visualize theater of the mind and want something more concrete to work with. They will come up with more clever and creative plans because they understand the given scenario better with more visual information given.
And the biggest flaw in the logic is that Theater of the Mind *can always supplement* places were maps and minis or VTT can't fit every detail. It's a false dichotomy to suggest you need to use one tool or the other. Indeed, these are all just tools which each have different stengths and weaknesses.
Now, is there a concern that this will pull in unsavory marketing tactics and oppress other systems and competitors? Absolutely, but it also seems like competitors are free to step up their game.
WotC is currently killing it, and as long as the product the deliver is top quality, there's no real problems. It's when they start getting lazy and sloppy, resting on their laurels that quality will begin to slip and competitors can capitalize on it.
Overall, I'm excited to see this change the hobby forever, because I know at my tables, it will only be another option I can use as much or as little as I please.
me and my friend can comes up with the wildest scenario to get rid of enemies when we have a map that show our surrounding, like flooding a cavern because we have the map to show us where the water comes from, or using a nearby lake with algae to infiltrate a bandit camp without being seen because the map show us those small detail that the theater of the mind often forgot, we use both to supplements our games and it work wonder, so yeah i don't like his false dichotomy of you either use X or Y
Well said.
There are often misunderstandings when the layout is too vague and that clogs up the flow of the game trying to correct errors. So having a 3d anchoring of the layout helps keep it all together. With mods the dm may even be able to bring the representation to new heights that out perform the imagination of a player that can't conceptualize more than a few objects in their head at any moment.
I'm in agreement with your post and total disagreement with the video.
Ya, I had to come in to say, I quite agree with you. I get the concerns, but frankly a lot of it sounds to me like, 'oh no, the new players won't have fun the same way I do'.
First off, if people weren't having fun, they wouldn't do it. Heck, there were plenty of people playing it with pencil and paper that were 'videogamizing' it by focusing strictly on the numbers and measuring everything to the centimeter. If one doesn't like playing with grognards, that's fine, I totally get that, but let them have fun how they want to.
Second, I think all that doomsaying is really dumping on these kids, just assuming they're going to be incapable of creative thought or problem solving, and unable to imagine the map space changing just because it's inconvenient to change it. Give young people some credit, they can be endlessly creative.
As for janky financial shenanigans, well... ya, I think that could get shady. We'll have to see how difficult they make it to navigate, I guess.
I agree with you. For all the time where I have mentioned a chandelier and players used it there are time where I have not mentioned it at all, but players saw it on the art and used it. It's really not that big a deal.
But this is not to discount the other big point of the video. The idea that players will have a harder time switching from D&D to other systems is still very real and worrying.
From my experience DMs and Players are clever enough to decide for themselves if or how much of a VTT they will use. I don't see any chance for the VTT replacing local groups but people scattererd all over the country already (have to) use this. Sitting at the table with real friends is too tempting during and (hopefully soon) after the pandemic. Mobile addicted kids under age of 14 are not the target for roleplaying. I startet playing d&d in the 80ies and nowadays i like the possibilities from d&d beyond to be able to access rules/information fast because it decreases the time needed to look things up. But nobody i know will ever miss the opportunity to roll the dice on their own, watching it roll over the table and come to rest with a nat 20 or 1.
I bet that local groups won't use this and for scattered ones this could be fine.
For content creators though this could be bad, i agree.
D&D's power lies in it's utter simplicity. If the world turns into a nuclear hellscape and you have to hide in a bunker devoid of any electricity you can still play D&D between raider attacks and radiation storms. Reliance on VTT's really flies in the face of what makes D&D so great.
I see, of one of the first things you'd do, when running into safety, is take all your Books with you, so you might be able to play TTRPG when the world goes down.
Sounds rather unlikely, though, I have no doubt, people like this actually exist.
I've already started investing in other rpgs because 5e has slowly lost its way over the past few years. After watching the announcement video, I'm glad I did. I made the mistake of buying spelljammer because I was excited. That won't happen again.
Fair points as always. Another thing to keep in mind is that they promised all this sort of digital support for 4th edition as well and all we got was a character sheet builder... lol?
I agree.
The short demonstration certainly looked pretty, but I saw a very little of actual use. This is very common in the video game space in which the parts that they show you is either highly limited, or made to look like it as far more functional than it does. I expect them to follow the trajectory that most digital companies run into, And have quite a bit of growing pains and the realization that they simply cannot mimic the simple process of sitting around a table and sharing a story.
From what I understand, part of the lack of material beyond the character builder had to do with a murder-suicide involving the (head?) developer of the VTT part of the project and the loss of chunks of the project he was responsible for. There was also an announcement about a lack of traction for it while it was in beta, though I have no idea if that was a result of issues caused by the loss of the developer. That said, I can't say I have a huge amount of faith in WotC to do well with these tools after seeing how MtG Arena has been faring over the past couple of years. They likely won't be the same team, but it certainly doesn't inspire confidence to see how that program has been handled.
@@richiecastle460 yeah if I was gonna use this, i'd wanna build my own stuff. how easy is that?
What a felt put so much more elegantly. Thank you so much for breaking it down in simple, yet complete, terms. I really value what you bring to our community Baron!
This is why I feel like, if I were to get into a VTT, and I have considered it, I'd only want it for some of the quality of life perks. Forge VTT seems like a great one that handles lighting and independent player visual ranges, but you can also set it up so that most of it is theater of the mind and all you're using it for is a physical space you otherwise wouldn't have in online games. Haven't gotten into it yet, but I'm heavily considering it.
As a long time (for said platform) Foundry user, ForgeVTT (which hosts Foundry instances for you) is amazing at theatre of the mind and rarely are maps used in the campaigns I play with it.
Yeah I use a simple board and symbols for the players, and since it’s quite rudimentary and simplistic it allows for more creativity, whereas I feel a high-fidelity immersive experience would feel more constraining.
Lots of good points here and concerns I share as well. The future of "One D&D (to Rule them All))" is "D&D as a Service" from what this seems.
I think that good physical/digital representations help creative minds to be creative instead of "obfuscating" them.
Go to higher places for advantage, find places to hide/cover, and use objects to gain an advantage (difficult terrain, drop on top of creatures).
At least at my table, the "digital migration" has not had any dramatic change on this aspect of the game, my tip is to just keep describing the room/place where they are as usual, no matter how "good" the image is.
Good points sir. I hadn't thought of models detracting from creativity but that makes perfect sense.
Please may we receive a 'The Caverns of Thracia' analysis? I'd love to learn why it's your favorite.
Really appreciated how clear and concise your explanation is! I saw folks on Twitter talking about this, but now I'm able to send this video to friends to easily share that information!!
I like to use LEGOs for my minis. I find them more versatile than typical minis and terrain. I also find that they can encourage more creativity, since the everything I put on the board was made to be pulled apart and put together new.
But I want to get back towards imagination - based play. Index Card RPG has a great middle ground where you lay out cards to represent elements on the field. It helps players imagine positioning without locking them into a grid.
Oh, I used to do that, back when I played at an in-person table.
When I move into a place large enough for a dedicafed gaming room, I'm definitely going to try Lego for miniatures.
I'm Gen Z (2000), and I understand the concern about the generation that follows mine (i.e. those who are kids now), but I don't think it's worth worrying about. I'll keep playing pen and paper and if I have kids, teach them that way. Everyone will play the way that makes them happy, and that's fine by me.
Best take out of any of the comments here, spoken as a ‘99 vintage Zoomer
And! Even with the new stuff, there will always be someone like us who stick to pen and paper and integrate those methods on like Roll20 etc
I am currently prepping for a new D&D session with a new dm. And two of the players are very new to the game, so Im teaching them how to be creative, how to roleplay and I want to teach them how to build a character sheet from scratch. Pen and paper and calculator.
And nothing can ever end written rps. Cringy, well planned out and everything in between will prevail. Preteens and teens just _need_ to rp for some reason,
Thankyou so much, you have just summed up, in eloquent brevity, the rather miasmic and hard to grasp concerns I've been failing to adequately express about the VTT since it was announced. I shall be linking this vid to everyone I've tried to talk to about this so far (and probably a couple of forums I use as well!)
ngl I came here expecting an "old man yells at cloud" style video but all things considered you made a lot of good points. I've always been a bit ambivalent towards VTTs, but I think your video has changed my mind on the subject. It'll be a sad day indeed when dnd has totally taken over the tabletop rpg space and choked out all other systems...
How has D&D taken over the VTT space? It doesn't even exist yet. Fantasy grounds has 18 years under its belt. I dont think suddenly that D&D official VTT will rule them all.
@@Ispy10101 When did I say D&D *has* taken over the VTT space? I don't even really care about the VTT space all that much. I care about the tabletop rpg space generally, where D&D 5e is currently far and away the most played and most recognised system.
I'm speculating about a time where D&D expands the margin by which it already leads to encompass the entire ttrpg space, pushing competitors out of the market entirely. Something it's already well on the way to doing.
Wizards is going to do this by expanding the D&D ecosystem to include a plethora of online spaces like D&D beyond and the prospective VTT, thereby gating people in to D&D and preventing new systems from competing.
The VTT would play a part in this hypothetical market takeover (which is something that's in the best interest of wizards, being a massive corporation) but it would be far from the only part.
These heavily video-game oriented VTTs have always frustrated me, mainly because of what you mentioned at the beginning-the videogamification of play choice.
And I actually love VTTs! I've been running mostly virtual games for 10 years, when originally we just played via Skype with Webcams. My preferred kind of VTT experience should always enhance the feeling of playing on paper: the map can be as fancy as I want, but I can still draw on it. HP/AC modifiers are easily managed, etc.
That's one of the reasons I love foundry over other platforms: just enough bells and whistles while still retaining the feel of paper in the end.
Ultimately, I could write off talespire before and say "ah that's not for me" but BOY is it worrying that the largest tabletop can now also push this new premium VTT as the "new gaming experience"
I agree that the type of VTT they're going for could make new players approach it as a video game, no outside the box thinking possible with this type of 3D VTT.
I believe they should have gone for a 2d approach. All they had to go for was Roll20, but better and more polished. Hell, some animations like a fireball of arrow flying toward the enemy would be small minimalistic touches I wouldn't mind. Better UI, better menus, make everything more polished and intuitive. Instead they thought a 3D VTT is bigger, badder and better. Not only will this require a lot more work on their part, but the end product will feel a lot more video-gamey.
3D VTTs have always had a very rigid feel to them. You feel like ''what you see, is what you can do'', where a 2d map, leaves a lot of ''is there a blablabla here?'' questions open. 2D maps still need you to do a bunch of imagining in your own head, while 3D VTTs have this weird, cold, stale plasticy feel to them that just don't allow for visualization in our minds. Imagine having a bunch of tokens on a 2D map, you know they're just tokens to have everybody understand positions, you're still imagining a good chunk of everything. Now imagine having a bunch of digital miniatures standing around a campfire, somehow I would feel like an absoulte idiot trying to RP something deep or serious while I'm looking at a bunch of 3D miniatures on my screen. This issue doesn't exist in RL, as you don't look at your miniatures when RPing, you look at real humans.
They should have used their resources for a smartly done 2D VTT.
But WotC doesn't think about these smaller things. Hell their adventure module layouts are still absolutely horrible and independend OSDND zines have really made this apparent.
Not to mention the game wont run smoothly on everybodys device as it's not as simplistic as a 2D VTT with a map. Nice little fk you to the older generation of players who play on their old computers and somebody who can simply not afford something better. But this is the least of my concerns to be honest.
Where can I get a copy of that map. Also if in the campaigns they release they have title screens, or set piece art they might promote 1 in 5 dungeons being theater of the mind for example, would be a good compromise
I started by playing Pathfinder using theater of the mind over discord. I liked it, but I eventually met the group in person, which was also fun, I've played on roll 20, all of them had advantages. Personally I liked Theater of the mind, we set up channels for text in between sessions we'd rp as our characters talking in a relaxed setting, it was nice.
I don't know what is going to happen. What I can say is that playing TTRPG's at a physical table with your friends is a vastly superior experience to playing the same game with the same people over zoom, Roll20, VTT or any other online tool. I do not believe Wizards can change that with what they are building.
yes
yeah, i dont think that sentiment is going to change either. The only reason i prefer VTT at all is that i dont have to worry about the costs associated with physical play (that and i hate doing math so having a computer do it all and not have to worry about if i read a rule wrong is nice). I don't personally get the "so much better" feeling others get from in person play. It's the same to me. But i do understand others don't feel the same as me. I started by playing pathfinder at the table in person, and i ended up preferring computer play. I can't imagine the situation being any rarer that people who start on a VTT would find they prefer playing in person.
Why can't you still play at a table physically? Best thing I ever did as a dm was put a tv inside a table to digitally display battle maps. Also have a screen on the wall to display maps or monsters.
Digital enhancement of in person play is aces.
@@brandonstone2754 but placing an entire tv sounds expensive ):
@@brandonstone2754 Sounds awesome! The people I play TTRPG's with moved to different cities, so if we want to keep playing together we have to make the remote thing work unfortunately. I have considered starting or finding a new group locally, but COVID kept me from really pursuing that in earnest. Maybe this year though.
the imagination aspect i'd consider relative. in my experience, it's still very possible to be creative with your actions in a VTT, i'd argue even more so. personally, i need those visual aids like maps and token/miniatures to keep track of what's actually going on, which in turn enables me to find more creative solutions than "i hit the monster", by being aware of the environment. through creative tool use, it can still be changed, even if that change is just the DM using the draw tool to scribble over a wall which was blasted away. saying that VTTs limit the imagination shows, imo, a lack of imagination in how the tools can be used.
and VTTs have other benefits, like allowing players to meet over larger distances (my current group spans over 1000km) and more frequently (no logistical considerations), while also making it easier to keep track of everything in game, like spells, spell slots, abilites, health, etc, to the point where i'd consider using VTT software or similar just to keep track while still playing at a physical table.
the commercial aspect, however, is indeed worrying...
Roll20 was and is so simple, that it makes it easy to add or erase stuff.
Also, it makes it possible for one player to see something, that someone else can't see.
I personally like it because I lack a mind's eye and half my players are in Europe.
I was hoping someone had brought this up. switching AWAY from theater of the mind made my table's combat so much more creative and fun, and a lot of the time things the DM put on the map as "set dressing" become unintentional tools for a solution that wouldnt have existed if we were playing without the map.
I know IRL groups that have a giant touchscreen tv in the table for doing maps and scenes. Its pretty awesome.
@@Seth9809 respectfully, I couldn't disagree more. I've used Roll20 a ton and I extremely dislike it. I refuse to ever use it again. the controls make no sense, there are tons of micro-transactions, and the whole system feel completely counterintuitive
Thank you for this very compelling critique. I think a lot will come down on how the UI is built: will it act as a blank slate upon which DMs can create and improvise, or will it lock them in? Now more than ever it should be possible to build a VTT that captures the flexibility of real world play. As a DM whose group could not have survived major life changes without virtual play, the janky UI of Roll20 has been a major restriction on my game, and so One D&D feels like it could be a godsend... if they can do it in a way that honours real world play instead of pushing it out.
I agree with you. I started playing in 1980 ( till the late 90s) , and recently returned to the game of 5th Ed, the changes in game has surprised me and saddened me. However I understand that the game was evolved to maintain relevance to the players of today.
Also 5e is easier for people like me who have dyscalculia. Its dyslexia, but for numbers. So mathematics is way more taxing than for others.
But I too kick back against this digital thing. Sometimes half of the fun is setting up a space with pen and paper
@@elvingearmasterirma7241 Easier than which edition? B/X (80s) was designed with that in mind. Your sheet had a lookup table (attack matrix) so whatever you rolled, all you had to do was look up the result (AC hit) and check if the result
I work in architecture. The same concerns were raised when moving from hand drawn blueprints to computer aided drafting. And again when computer aided drafting (2d) began to shift to building information systems (3D modeling). It is true that creativity can be limited by the system in which you operate. Many architecture schools still insist on some level of hand drawing to encourage creativity outside the bounds of software. But the buildings created in the last 50 years push the limits of what we thought were even possible. The transition will be a pain. Ultimately, embracing the digital era may prove to be the only way for the hobby to continue growing.
Looks around at strip malls
There is a difference between the architects who do drafting to earn their living and hobby gamers. One group would absolutely dedicate hours and more to refine their usage of tools, as well as the tools themselves to fit their needs, while the majority of the other group won't do that, and will likely have limited ways of adjusting the tools to their needs.
I personally use the Foundry VTT. It has a lot of nice features, but doing stuff like quickly drawing a simple battlemap for the unforeseen circumstances is honestly quite a pain. It would be much easier to just use a piece of paper, which sadly is not really an option online. My only hope is for either Foundry developers or modders to make the drawing tools less cumbersome to use. I am not sure that WotC will even allow to modify the basic functionality of their VTT.
Nice graphics are nice an all, but they require a lot of work to set up, even when working with pre-made assets. The hobby seems to be shifting to using pretty maps over simpler ones, similar how modern video games put more effort into their aesthetics. But those are made by teams that are pretty large and grow in size over years, while the poor GM now has to deal with the demanding and often restrictive tools while also making sure that the game actually has a good gameplay. In my limited experience, some GMs forget about the gameplay and spend more and more time to make their game look pretty.
Maybe the transition will be worth it, but it sure will be a lot of pain. And hopefully nothing will be lost in the process.
I think moving to a micro transaction approach is at the heart of this, which is kind of understandable: all the way back to TSR there has been the chronic problem of how does the company continue to pay salaries month after month if the customers only have to buy the core book(s) once to play forever. Historically, D&D has survived only on MtG's surplus. Knowing the popularity brought by Stranger Things or Critical Role might not last, to remain sustainable, Wizards has to either scale down their costs severely, like Onyx Path does by barely using salaried staff, or scale up their range of things to buy. They've already been doing a lot of this with a range of tie in products like spell cards, themed dice, board games and randomized, collectable, licensed miniatures (which are obviously gachapon loot boxes).
I feel the freedom of theatre of the mind is already alluring enough to players like us that future generations won't forsake it. I think what Wizard is trying to do is bring the giant "casual" audience into the hobby and get them all to pay 99¢ to fund continued content for what they really want to make.
Also, regarding DriveThruRPG, Wizards already only releases their third string content as PDFs (no PHB, Xanathar's, etc.). I suspect DM's Guild is less about helping people find other games and more about controlling and making a buck off the content they know homebrewers will inevitably want to share and sell.
I should add that the physical tie-in products are highly vulnerable to supply chain issues and the closing of distributers (local stores going under), two things that the pandemic brought to the forefront of concerns. Expanding into virtual goods means they don't have to budget around those risks. The problem with virtual goods, though, is that they're easy to copy and share unless you add much-hated DRM or plant them inside a closed garden. This helps explain why the only digital PHB you can legitimately buy is through platforms like D&D Beyond or Roll20.
I think you've nailed the _why_ of it. They need that recurring credit card transaction and those trickles of micropayments to keep profits robust.
I suspect mod support could account for a lot of limitations. I’m expecting it after a while. The ability to just quickly grab certain user made assets and load them in quickly. Keep in mind that by going digital, the usual limitations of “not having a mini to represent a player created event” doesn’t necessarily have to be a burden. In Roll20, if such a thing happened, a DM was able to just bring in a new asset fairly quickly from a collection they had. You want to dam off a river? What are you using to do it? Boulder? Tree? Landslide? There are assets you can use for that in roll 20 and just drag into the game. It actually felt kinda freeing that the DM essentially had the entirety of the internet to just kinda find a visual aid. Sure it COULD turn into a highly limited toolset. OR someone could drop an asset pack of rocks and trees and walls. Want to touch your minis? VR will probably make that possible. Why do I think these features will be implemented? Because they matter to people and their competitors address them in some way. If they want to make a ton of money, they’ll do it. Seems obvious. As for stuff like preloaded games and procedurally generated maps, I see it as this… lots of kids were never going to craft their own playground. Now some that wouldn’t have will get the change to have their hand held while DMing. Will this make them lazy? It could, but most of us like to play around with tools once they are in our hands, see how they work. Way I see it, this isn’t going to reduce the number of DMs who put in the effort. More likely outcome, people will use the procedural tools to make their forests look less “shaped for the game” and the game will be more “shaped around the forest”. Players who started with a big pre-made map will come to know the limitations of said map, and eventually opt to make their own maps from bits and pieces that they can alter. I think the only problem is that some people who would have went all in might decide the generate first and experiment with the toolset before they take the leap, which isn’t so bad. They might learn the the program is better at assembling terrain than they are and want to keep that aspect, but reserve tha ability to look over said terrain and modify it if something didn’t fit their vision. I see it more as breaking a barrier for entry for would-be DMs. That first time can be really intimidating, and some people may have good ideas for world building but be absolutely garbage at designing dungeons. Unless every competitor folds, I think this opens a lot more doors than it closes.
I’m pretty much is old school as they come, I reckon, having started with Chainmail and first edition D&D back in the 70s (Tunnels and Trolls anyone? :)). I agree with your analysis in the main - it’s very well reasoned and right on the money in terms of creativity, quite apart from the tie-in issues. However, I just don’t have the time to 3-D print or make and paint whole adventures at this stage (nor is my wife particularly on-board with the related 'storage' issues), but my kids like the visual engagement that comes from moving beyond pencil and paper. I would therefore like the option in virtual tabletops just to create the environment and mobility, while still being able to fiddle with other aspects more creatively. To me that’s the holy grail. Obviously it’s nice to be able just to download a ready-to-role adventure, particularly for newbies, so that’s a great option. But for seasoned gamers it would also be nice to be able to create visually stunning and engaging environments without being tied too tightly in terms of creativity. I’m aware that some systems already offer this to a greater or lesser extent, but, as mentioned, it’s all a bit Heath Robinson at the moment. Mind you, to an oldie like me who started with dry-wipe worlds and blutac baddies, this VTT stuff is all brain-blending sorcery, so who am I to moan!
YES! I remember Tunnels and Trolls! Those were the days of fun and discovery in the expanding world of RPGs! D&D has become far too convoluted (setting-wise and rule-wise) for me to want to play it anymore. It's too far removed from even the "basics" of a Medieval based world. Magic has become the end-all-be-all and healing potions are passed out more than candy itself. D&D has moved too far away from its Medieval roots, and now it's only a laser gun away from being a weird sci-fi world.
@@andynonimuss6298 Yes, it is far more complex, AN. But it was interesting seeing 5e after just having bought the 4e books for a read. More more recognisable to crusties like us. Then I discovered something called 'OSR' . . . which made me feel positively prehistoric. Gits. I'm bouncing the kids between more mythic D&D and narrative RPGs like Monster of the Week and so on currently. To be honest, I'm just glad they're enjoying it. Very warm-glow territory for me. Excepting swearing at my resin printer, of course.
@@bizzbizz5863 I think I'm to the point of: OSR mentality + Modern Game Mechanics = Me needing to write my own game.
@@andynonimuss6298 Move away from the testing dice, AN . . . that's a 40 year rabbit hole you're never coming back from (and I say that as someone who literally just sneaked into his son's bedroom to retrieve the three case-bound A4 notebooks filled with stats and variations to have 'one more look at' before coming back online . . .).
@@bizzbizz5863 Hah! Understood.
I think both have a place, and making a cool integrated VTT is great. Everyone thought eBooks and the internet would kill books and paper. They didn't, in fact more paper was used. Everyone thought technology and video would mean less people would read but the majority of the internet is text.
Something like this existed in 1995 or 1998 -- White Wolf's Vampire the Masqurade: Redemption. It didn't have the books and such in it, but it allowed a story teller to tell a story, and control NPCs and then allowed them to initiate battle. It was cool, but few people knew about it and it was really hard to be a story teller in because you'd take over NPCs and see first person, so you couldn''t do all the things at once like you can at the table. To be honest, the fact this hasn't happened in D&D sooner makes me think it isn't a threat to TTRPG. The reason people play them at the table is because they are social events. And I think they will continue to be played at tables.
I remember 4E and it seems like they are making the same mistake. Sure, there are a lot of new players who most likely don't even know the name Gygax or what it was like to play before phones became "smart" (or mobile... yes I am that old) but I don't think there is enough of them to make this move profitable in the long run. They built this new wave off the back of Critical Role and that is a fact. Us old school players are still around coaxing new players to the game. I don't think this move will work like they think it will. I will reserve judgement but I have seen this "innovation" nonsense from them before and it was called 4E. Same people who made 4E are doing this and likely will be implemented poorly. Meanwhile I will still be here with my books like I was with my 3.5 books when 4E was crashing and burning for not being D&D. If what they are doing is harming the hobby I will sit with my 5E books and watch them crumble around themselves.
Exactly my feelings, I don't mind that a lot of people joined the RPG community due to CR at all. Actually I embrace it and am super happy that our game has reached such distances. What I am salty about is that they're "doing the 4E again" making an terrible salad in between good intentions and profits.
And regarding devices on the table, there's one player on mine that uses DND beyond for everything. But slight problem: it runs on American units, and I run our game in metric because we live in a metric country. The amount of fumbling he has to do sometimes is quite comic, and although I allow him to use it because he's tech savy I consistently try to introduce new players to the pen and paper, read the rules approach so that they have agency with the system
I also agree with the original poster. I was playing a home brew game that still had the bases in1st edition, skills from 2nd and 3.5th edition, magic creation rules from 3.5, and other things from Dragon magazines. We only switch to 5e so we could start playing at conventions again. Those of use that do play at conventions use tablets for the books as it is a lot lighter than all the books, but I do bring my books to Adventure League games, I can leave them in the car and get them quickly if they are needed.
I don’t know if anyone remembers a push with DnD to a VHS tape driven as the dungeon master back in the late 80s or early 90s. It was pushed over everything thing else for about a year and died. The RUclips presenter has valid points that currently I can introduce someone to DnD with a character sheet and a pencil. But with One DnD you now need a subscription, will chase away the mildly interested person. Only fans really into the game that use the digital platforms now will go with it.
Another concern is if Wizards of the Coast pull DnD off the other platforms and make it exclusive to their platform only. This will kill the game. Some examples are, Digital Equipment Corporation, DEC for short, they had an open micro computer in the 1980s where anyone could make a card to work in their computers. But they were not selling cards for computers so they changed the bus to a property bus and only their cars could be purchased, they went out of business. Rinse and repeat with SGI, and SUN, both made mistakes in locking down their hardware with customer Operating Systems, and are now all dead. What killed them Linux that was an open OS that ran on any hardware. Sorry IT guy here.
I see the same thing happening with One DnD, locking others out and the interest will start to die off. The digest way to introduce someone to a gaming system to make it easy to try it. One DnD does not make it easy because you have to create an account, a character before you even get to try the game, which requires you to pay about $6 currently. You mildly curious person is not going to spend $6 to try a game.
As a theater of the mind dm I will use these images on the tabletop to show my players what the environment looks like and save me time with describing it and then they can continue to interact with the encounter as they already would, but I certainly respect your views on the matter, they could definitely become problematic with the potential entitlement so to speak that new players may develop
There is something unique that a TTRPG has that a videogame hasn't and that is the capacity to imagine something using theater of the mind. Where even if you use none dnd figures or no tokens at all. You still have to work together to imagínate the scene that is happening and that is a pretty magical thing that happens when you play TTRPG in person. On another note, it also provided a environment of creating friendships and strong bonds with the members of your table because you are there in person and before and after the game starts you start to interact with those person.
When I heard the news about VTT that one DND presented I was more worried because when you add the virtual element you technically are taking away the chances of interaction between players.
Lot to digest here, so I'm gonna try to break it down to a few select bullet points.
* CURRENT VTTs, & open ended solutions: It is fully possible to handle the dropping the chandelier or exploding the walls scenarios in most current VTTs, because at their heart they are basically drawing tools with additional fluff to handle moving tokens around on the images. You just draw the chandelier, the blasted walls, & whatever else. Admittedly the more you lean into certain 'ease of use' tools, the more boxed in you make yourself. On the other end of the spectrum, theater-of-the-mind style play doesn't keep some GMs/players from being Read-as-Written pedants. I think the bigger factor here is the rules language in most books, especially WOTCs, that give a strong impression of only playing within the lines
* OneD&D & open ended solutions: From what I'm seeing, the big negative here is actually OneD&D being 3d based... it is substantially harder to 'scribble over' nicely textured 3d models... and even systems where you can (Minecraft springs to mind...) it is substantially more time intensive.
* On the VTT stats: The reality is that 5E is NOT the world's biggest RPG, that's actually Call of Cthulhu. However, 5E *IS* the biggest TT-RPG in the USA (& I'm assuming the rest of the English speaking world, including Canada, UK, & Australia). The stats from Roll20 suggest actually that Roll20 & other VTTs have very little adoption outside of the English language market. Square that with all other arguments around discoverability & play styles... even if the worst happens it will be restricted to certain countries/cultures.
- Side note: this is actually also true of Apple/IOS as well... outside of the USA the iCrap is generally regarded as garbage.
* DMsGuild: FFS people, stop buying into that horses***, it's a bad & overly restrictive deal. Use the OGL licenses if you must but you shouldn't even bother with the trap that is the DMsGuild.
* can't make a PDF/booklet out of a programmed event tree: I will strongly contest this, of course you can. That was basically what Choose Your Own Adventure books were, after all. The current zeitgeist of various & sundry tabletop generators shares more than non-programmers are aware with programming as well. Also, OneD&D adventures captured into an open or text-based format will be able to be adapted to any other format/media reasonably easy. Of course, I don't trust WOTC in any way to facilitate that... but it's not because they can't, it's because they WON'T.
* 10-year-olds will be spoiled by the video-gameness: I think this is somewhat dismissive of kids ability to find fun in things. I've had good luck exposing my younger nieces/nephews/cousins to things like retro-video games, & board games, & heavily homebrewed OSR clones. The fact that OneD&D *IS* so incapable of true wacky do-whatever-the-hell-you-want style play will actually be a point in favor of kids liking the old-school tabletop experience more. This argument is reminiscent of what some folks thought was going to happen back with the original rougelikes... which were absolutely supposed to be digital D&D simulators.
* locked into OneD&D because OneD&D has all my digital assets: The thing is most folks, including kids, actually understand digital assets are at some level very ephemeral... MMO video games shut down all the time, *especially* fly-by-night skinner-box hunt-the-whales mobile games. It's actually a problem all on it's own, the younger generations are learning to place less value on their money because they are spending it on bling in virtual worlds which can literally vanish overnight... but on the other hand they're going to be WAY less attached to the virtual bling than you are suggesting Baron.
As an European, I can sorta confirm the "5E is NOT the world's biggest RPG" part. COC is n°1 in France, Germany has DSA - Das Schwarze Auge (The Dark Eye), Italians absolutely LOVE White Wolf's Vampire, and uh... That's the ones I know at the moment, sorry.
I do know that COC is also the most popular non-homemade TTRPG in Japan, where something called Sword World is the n°1 TTRPG. If I remember my stuff correctly.
Yeah I can kind of understand some of the things he's going for here, but to be honest this feels a lot like "these kids these days don't know how to enjoy my hobby right." I think that things like people staying more inside of the lines when using newer content is often more because of the fact that they're newer players rather than because they subconsciously feel more restricted by the more modern tools. Like even in Theatre of the Mind (which he also seems to regularly prop up as the 'ideal' way to play going by this), you can basically say and do anything but even when playing like that if you're a new player you're probably going to be more unsure of what you can and can't do and stick to whatever is written on your sheet.
Plus advanced tools can open up new avenues to more complicated techniques that would simply be too difficult to manage in Theatre of the Mind or Tabletop play. Often when playing in the mind, things like trying to avoid hitting your teammates with a fireball become a non issue because the exact location of the enemies and allies is a bit more fluid and story driven. Whereas I personally think that having to actually worry about the exact ranges and positions of characters can make for a more interesting and dynamic play experience. And a 3D VTT like what they're proposing could make things like Flight in combat much more interesting. Or maybe you figure out a way to avoid hitting an ally by angling your fireball to detonate mid-air and other creative things like that.
Not to mention that even when playing with something that detailed, it's not like people can't make things up as well. A DM would go crazy if they tried to include every single little random item and detail in a room, so there's always going to be some level of description imagination involved with the specifics, which can still give plenty of leeway for creative strategies and ideas.
Also, at the end of the day, I think most people don't want to buy a subscription for stuff like this. Especially if they're casual players, they're probably not going to go crazy paying a sub for this big complicated program when there are still always going to be free options like Roll20 and physical Tabletop play as well. the only people that are going to be buying into these kinds of programs are going to be more dedicated players. Or at the very least a more experienced GM with a group of novice players. And at that point the GM should be encouraging their players to think outside of the box, regardless of what they're actually playing with.
Only a bad artist blames their tools.
@@BlazeMakesGames preach
@@jack0lantern03 Somewhere I picked up that the current most popular globally is CoC, probably from somewhere else on RUclips. I might be mindlessly reporting a false statistic. Appreciate the (more likely to be accurate) breakdown by country :).
@@BlazeMakesGames " I think that things like people staying more inside of the lines when using newer content is often more because of the fact that they're newer players rather than because they subconsciously feel more restricted by the more modern tools."
Personality also plays a part, some folks (myself included!) are very rules/systems oriented & it can be a learning process to play TT-RPGs as they were truly intended, where play is more fluid (& when I say truly intended, I mean as Gygax/Arneson originally played which is the origin of the rest of the hobby). I DO think how modern tools are written presented also doesn't help though... personally reading ICRPG was the breakthrough moment for me when the scales dropped from my eyes on really ditching playing to strict RAW. Where I disagree with Baron is that it's essentially an inevitable slippery slope, or somehow fundamentally worse that what we're already dealing with.
"Like even in Theatre of the Mind (which he also seems to regularly prop up as the 'ideal' way to play going by this)"
Again, going back to Arneson/Gygax - we know the history of the game, & we know what they were basing it off of, which was miniature wargames. TT-RPGs have always been played hand-in-hand with miniatures, ToM is factually a later advancement/variation.
"Plus advanced tools can open up new avenues to more complicated techniques that would simply be too difficult to manage in Theatre of the Mind or Tabletop play. "
100%
"when there are still always going to be free options like Roll20"
I will note from personal experience that it is fairly impractical for the entire group to play free on Roll20. The GM is HIGHLY incentivized to get a subscription, especially if you're trying to do something like customized, simplified character sheets. Other VTTs of course are different
One of my first games, the DM was really excited about using D&D Beyond's new features. They had a new "monster tracker" app at the time which was supposed to take effort away from the DM. As we launched into combat, the DM stopped to take about 10 minutes slotting each monster in so that he could just click to roll initiative. Because apparently handling initiative is super difficult.
After 5 minutes I asked "Why not just roll and write them down on some paper?"
"This is just better".
The whole group except for me was on board with migrating to D&D Beyond. I was fine with it, just ... to me, a lot of the magic of D&D is that you don't need to buy a bunch of stuff to play it. You need some paper, pen/pencils, and your imagination. It is definitely a thing that the modern audience has become obsessed with dice, minis and other things they can spend their wages on. Capitalism is sad but it's even sadder when people are willing slaves.
Um... nothing wrong with Capitalism. Greed is the issue. Greed is an insidious thing. I suggest some Milton Freedmen and Thomas Sowell to help you gain some interesting insight into Capitalism and the difference that most of us have been exposed to posing as Capitalism.
@@Wgaberle Well said. I feel it's important to distinguish between what people condemn as capitalism (which is actually corporatism) and actual capitalism (which is just free market principles).
@@theastralwanderer691 Glad someone gets it. We don't live in a capitalist society. This is a mixed market economy with heavy handed government intervention and "private-public partnerships' which are just a rebranding of the corporate-government structures that were pushed by Mussolini and Gentile as the basis for fascist economics. Granted, that's going a bit far down the rabbit hole of information, so suffice to say capitalism is predicated on small business and free enterprise, corporatism is what we currently have, predicated on licensing protection and government permission.
More accurately, what this person is likely complaining about it *consumerism* the idea that everything in your life need to be driven by and revolve around physical (or in this case digital) products and brand loyalties.
@@CMacK1294 I hadn't considered it from a consumeristic perspective before, but that's really interesting. Thanks for sharing!
I’ve been running tabletop games and introducing new players to the genre for decades. You articulated concerns I had and explored aspects I hadn’t even considered. I was already considering shifting entirely to Pathfinder, which really seems to have retained a more traditional D&D feel. I think your analysis has sealed it for me.
I do like myself some battlemaps, however I more and more gravitate to a dungeon scrawl like style that is just a few lines for walls and markers for important things, so that it is less so a full representation and more so a positional marker for where most stuff is. This way players can still do environmental stuff which can be easily added to the map
after two years playing with Fantasy Grounds, and toying with FoundryVTT I realize that with VTTs less is more.
Even in person using basic stamps like tokens for monsters and PCs is more effective that minis, the PCs imagination is way more powerful than the most detailed mini.
I disagree. I've been DMing a very high effort game in roll20 for two years and counting. When it comes to visual assets, you have to all the way or not at all. It's not enough to have tokens, you need maps, visual representations of scenes, and so forth. I understand this isn't for everyone, and if you're not going to take the time to prep this all between sessions, then theater of the mind is better. But visual representations aid theater of the mind so much when done well, for the same reason that concrete battle maps aid strategic thinking. By anchoring the players in a very specific location, you can more easily convey tone and setting in a manner that is clear and unambiguous. With theater of the mind games, the setting is not as clear and one player may have a different impression of something compared to another player.
To wit, I've never had players as invested in my game world as when I started going all out with graphical representations in my VTT. I will actively get asked about lore and the players know many of the NPC names they encounter. This was not the case with the theater of the mind games I ran, and the ones I've played in as a player.
As someone who uses Owlbear rodeo, I couldn't agree more...I personally ain't buying any micro for gew gahs and flimilty gigs.
@@mschmidt2105 my group has been using TTS, and... simply drawing on a flat table and using paper standees goes a LONG way
@@ToddHowardWithAGun sure, your game if is effective for you and your players do all of that, cool, I realize that for me is better to describe extensively and use basic tockens to represent NPCs than to try to find the exact image that will convey what I'm saying.
I'm not trying to be a nay sayer but I feel like One has me clutching my pearls. I just see video gamizing of a whole genre of gaming is bad. The stories I remember from playing TTRPGs are when we did crazy things outside the scope of the battle maps or regional maps. And it will be full of DRM, micro-transactions, and toxic notifications like mobile games.
Call me old school I want my TTRPG to more of a board game than a board game.
I understand the concerns you're bringing to the table, so to speak, and I agree they are well founded. That being said, I have been using VTT and other tech aid to create, manage and develop my games and campaign world and it's been extremely useful for many reasons. First one being saving time. Where I had to run through books to find rules, now a quick Google search gives me what I need. Not sure how to apply something in a situation, once more I get access to forums of people who tackled the same issue. At the end of the day, those are tools and it comes up to each individuals and gaming group to decide how they will leverage those tools to get the best experience they can around the table (or online).
That's what I've grown to love about FoundryVTT. I started off going map crazy, and after some time I realized it was a bit limiting. That's when I started using Foundry for animated Theatre of Mind scenes, and making set pieces with modular terrain that I can change or switch out on the fly. I'll never forget the reactions of my group when they first tried something like smashing down a wall and I switched out the wall piece for a broken wall tile and hearing the gasps as I hit the button to play a sound effect of a wall breaking.
When I first started using Foundry, my games began to feel a bit more like a videogame - but now, it only adds to the immersion.
Check out Kinemancer for some ideas on creating the kind of animated TOM scenes I'm talking about, and Baileywiki is an excellent resource on modular prep.
Thanks a lot for bringing up my own issues: creativity, closed ecosystem, and microtransactions.
I DM for a group of 8 10-13 year old boys and girls, and those have enough screen time already, and it's always a blast to see them getting creative and to interact in person.
Last session they discovered a room full of skeletons lying around, and a statue that would animate those skeletons if anyone tried to remove its eyes made of jewels.
They took away all the skeleton's weapons before they went on to loot the room, making the combat far easier. How would that work in a VTT?
Yo thank you for representing the angle of trying to get into smaller/ indie rpgs. I try not to be a 5e hater but I do wonder how to expand people's horizons in a world where we talk about different editions of one game more than even talking about different games.
I think part of the problem is the "DnD as a lifestyle" schtick that WotC seems to be heading towards
Ever since the pandemic, our local Adventurers League have been using Discord for roleplay and dice rolling and Google Slides for our maps. They don't require much mobile data and intuitive enough that everyone can get on board quickly. We still basically just move PNG tokens across the slide presentation image of the map, we make circles and cones for AoE spells using the Shapes tab, add ongoing effects on enemy tokens by changing their colors and adding text boxes. You don't need to program anything and your imagination can still go wild with no limits.
i'm looking for the potential they might make small adventures that can be computer dm'd to allow for trying out characters before in a campaign or allow all players to participate. there will be limitations on creativity but i've seen groups fall apart from dm burn out which this could help mitigate by letting them play a few sessions every once in a while and some limitations on creativity will be welcomed by many in exchange for this.
When I heard that dnd beyond was getting an integrated vtt, my first reaction was "Yes!". Then seeing the footage, I was immediately disappointed. I had hoped for something like abovevtt, something simple and basic. Instead, there is this whole 3d miniature simulation going on.
5e feels more like a table top game than a roleplaying game, and playing with tokens reinforces that. And for combat, I think that's okay. But this new integrated vtt would move it further into the computer game territory. And let's face it, it doesn't really hold up in that category.
Agreed. As cool as it is that it's _possible_ to use 3d VTT maps nowadays, I'm not a big fan of actually using 3d VTT maps for actual sessions. In my opinion it crosses the line from "visual aid" to "video game simulation but more restrictive." Ironically, although the intent of 3d assets is to make it feel more like an actual tabletop with actual minis and dice and terrain, it actually makes it feel _less_ like that.
Now, I could see using a 3d map as a platform for some sort of highly interactive diorama or scale model where you can pan around and move things as you wish, but not as a battlemap.
Fair point! When I played DnD for the first time, what really hooked me was the reawakening of my imagination. It was like being a child again
You`re making some wonderful points here. I`m excited to play with the new gameplay features but as for the digital component; I'm probably gonna sit that out.
I had that problem not being able too move walls, that I drew, with hb pencil, on loose leaf.
I don’t think anyone who knows or has used Theater of the Mind will argue it’s inherent flexibility. But it has its “limitations” when it comes to precise tactics and spell effect ranges to keep a DM honest. Battle maps and Miniatures have existed for many years now and the VTT tool opens that accessibility to more than just enthusiasts. This will get more people in the door for DND and those that venture further will find that nothing beats being around a table with friends.
Physical minis and maps assist in visualization but a DM may still use TotM in tandem describing a scene beyond what is present on a map. The VTT opens that experience to those who don’t have a local community or group and it doesn’t take up space on shelves in homes. Digital assets from artists are made available faster with no delay in manufacturing. Nothing we have before One Dnd will just disappear. It may change but people still play Advanced DnD for gods sake. WE the players keep these things alive if we want them.
Nothing in the Roleplaying world is “complete” right out of the box because they are just the tools we use to build worlds. We are creatives, these are just tools.
Hard agree. I mentioned in another comment how his arguments here mirror the Mercer Effect, and I feel the same way about that as I do about digital integration.
Its simply not an either/or. You can, in fact, integrate theater of the mind into a virtual experience, and thats largely what mini enthusiasts already do, with the big set pieces getting the Dwarven Forge porn while TOTM takes care of the rest.
Likewise with more elaborate roleplaying, theres no reason that can't be integrated with gritty and tactical combats that minis and terrain beg for.
The best of both worlds is just that. Doing both because its just that much more awesome.
People can argue against the effort that goes into reaching that level of gameplay, but as always its about setting expectations
It isn't DNDs job to handle the interpersonal relationship between you and your friends, no matter how badly the rules may be written nor how limiting or exhaustive Beyond might be.
If you're only wanting to play to a certain level and the people you're playing with want something more (or even less), then its up to you to reconcile that and push come to shove, part ways if there can be no reconciliation.
The games audience schismed in the wake of 4E and that schism only widened with things like CR or D20. Not all players want the same things and while WOTC exacerbates that in wanting DND to be a catchall, its still ultimately on the players to sort out their expectations with each other.
@@zzar0humanity yes, and their 60 billion double dollars. (In 5 easy payments) 🍻
@@jriggan Meryl and Milly gotta get paid somehow. 🍩🍩🍩
This video has made a strong argument that D&D will change, but not a strong argument as to why that is bad. New players may prefer to play on virtual tabletop systems instead of theater of the mind. So what? There's room for more than one playstyle. I also think the assumption that new players would be unwilling to try theater of the mind or physical miniatures to be dubious at best. This is the seventh time D&D has gone through an edition change, yet we still get identical knee-jerk, the-sky-is-falling panic every single time.
I agree, thr game has been around for 50 years. and that's not because of vtts, minis or terrain. It's a creative storytelling tool.
It's the second half that's more important.
I don't really agree with his insistance that anything but theater of the mind is the devil.
But this is going to be a death-knell to anything that isn't D&D. It already ate every other game and this is only going to cause people to sink even more irreversibly into a corporate hellhole where nothing else exists, and if it does it obviously isn't worth bothering with. Which couldn't be further from the truth.
@@RobertJohnsonPS3711 and that wont change either.
@@colbyboucher6391 No, it won't be the death knell for anything. As the video mentions, there are already several VTT platforms. They will almost certainly lose the license to host D&D games. Do you think they'll close up shop? Or do you think they'll just to supporting non-D&D games? I'd argue this may be a boon to other systems, since they'll no longer have to compete with D&D on the same platforms.
@@RobertJohnsonPS3711 You're right. Terrain and miniatures have existed for decades, VTTs have become more and more common over the past 10-and D&D has remained a creative storytelling tool. Why should that change now?
Though I would note that the video's definition of creativity is woefully narrow and presumes without evidence that theater of the mind cannot exist in a virutal space.
I'm torn to be honest. On one hand I remember playing 2e long ago and love a more theater of the mind style. On the other my wife struggles with visual imagination and really needs the maps to enjoy the game. She'd love the new VTT and really took to me using Roll20. I hated using it and found it frustrating for some of the reasons you mention.
I think she'd really get into One D&D VTT and it would help her. I just hope it has a lot of flexibility - such as homebrew rules! I mean, will it come with a scripting language to do what most people do on the fly? Will the rule set become absolute? My undergrad was comp sci, but how many people would learn a scripting language just to homebrew?
Likely I'll stick with a physical table top with a monitor at most to create basic maps - or just draw them well enough.
Somewhat related. I think it's funny to go from my church fighting over worship book editions into D&D fighting over gamebook editions. I notice a lot of the same dynamics, ha!
I've been running Roll20 with a Pathfinder campaign since the start of the pandemic. It lets us game with one friend who is far away. But now I find it really hard to come up with ideas, and it's hard to do any improvised encounters with disembodied voices. There's something about the virtual experience that squashes creativity. I find myself trying to get other friends to play simpler systems that lean more on roleplaying. I pretty much bullied friends into trying Fiasco a few days ago, and literally dusted off the book. It ran clunkily, but everyone still had a great time. I think it's fine if people want to play a cross between a video game and a tabletop miniatures game. But that's really what D&D is turning into. If you want a roleplaying game, you're going to have to go with something else. I'm hoping to bully my friends into Primetime Adventures or Fate Core. I also want to try Honey Heist or some version of Lasers and Feelings.
I don't think it is the virtual aspect of it, that is the issue. When people get into that mind set online, people say it is like a video game but people get into the same mindset with table top games and people say it is like war gaming. I have known a lot of people, who only ever play tabletop that play d&d like a war game miniatures game.
Also, Dungeon Masterpiece, I am probably somewhat older than you, and have worked in Wizards of the Coast retail stores (back in 2000-2001)
This "One D&D" stuff, frankly, scares me, because it also looks like an "unwillingness" to innovate on the part of people who are supposed to be "Game Designers" - First and foremost.
I'd like to take a school bus, not the short one, gut the inside, put up a few tables, each table "interrupted" by a wall of gaming books, mini's, comics...& drive to a central location, Park, & have 3 groups of players. Like a mobile gameshop/arena. Add a pull out covered canopy, to set up a barter table, snack & beverage bar, & vaping lounge. Drive around like 4 creepy DM's picking up teens at bus stops...to go for a wild ride into the imagination lands.
Hell, I'd like to see a church like that too!