Narcissistic self injury is important. The affected person is cruel to herself/himself in ways they do not understand, and for reasons they have never considered. Shame is inculcated at an early age, too early for the child to be able to abstractly extirpate himself/herself from the corrosive quagmire that habitual self reproach becomes. It is a mode of being which one does not choose. One would not choose it for someone else, as revealed in a hypothetical put to the patient. So the interpretation arises, "You hold a double standard against yourself. Perhaps the time has come to review that." Because a modal shift is not instantly possible for human beings, the therapist can assign the patient to prepare self-forgiveness self statements. Experiment with those, say, two days a week. Journal the results with respect to mood and general outlook. Pulling oneself out of the mode of self-reproach takes work. This should be expected given the nature of human consciousness.
Thank you for this. I don't have a formal diagnosis, but I have many of the struggles of NPD and self-hatred is high on that list. "Self-reflection" is something I've done all my life and it only leads to shame and depression, nothing constructive.
@@AlastorTheNPDemon Hi, I am one and have a lot of insight (not bragging). We believe we self-reflect but we arre really having discussions (so to speak) with our inner bully .
We failed to grow an internal parent because we put a bully into place that prevented that. We redirected our anger against life towards ourselves as a means to have a sense of control. We probably experienced events as life-threatening from day zero (birth itself) . We made the attacks about ourselfves (control) which corresponds to trauma or what Kernberg calls 1st defence mechanism (resulting in BPD). The bully is a way to give a message to life: you won't hurt me anymore because I'll do it myself. But as a consequencce we believe life is mad at us and will stab us in the back asap.. The mum is rejected , refuge in fantasies of autosufficency. So, Life is against ourself. We hate the adult world. We send someone else to do the job. This someone is us, but we can't identify with that person who is playing by the rules of adults, we self-destruct...We believe there is something wrong, that we are missing a part. I once told my shrink that I wasn't motivated to take care of me. To which he answered: but then who is going to do it? I knew his answer was totally logical, but I felft it was so unfair and doomed. I could never do that.: I had already put so much energy in trying to be an ault, bullied into being one and punished into being one by this supertyranical ego, and in addition I had to take care of that person? Thoughts..
"I'm going to stamp-out old age" was what I told myself for most of my childhood. I was an alcoholic by age 18, smoked 2 packs of cig. a day and had a difficult time dealing with responsibility. My self-punishment began to transform into a desire for meaning and I began recovery at age 37. Oddly, I see my life-story as a narcissistic transformation from the destruction of a death wish (Freud?) to a life of health and happiness.
I am an NPD. Do you realize that your fear about having NPD is just like being afraid to dscover that you may be autistic? Not to say they are the same but you have lved with autism for all your life and learning you ha autism today, whould not change the person you are. Forget about labels. All the angry 'victims' or 'survivors' have NPD.T This label was vilified from the starts, including by experts which itells more about them, than about people with NPD. but trust me, it is not a moral disorder. I have come to this conclusion. But we did make wrong choices as babies that we may see as sins. I am not a beiliever. I don't know if you have NPD and consider it as a label and consider all the hatred online against NPD as weakness. Good people don't hate.. Maybe you attacked yourself but you want desperately to be part of this world and you have grown the belief early on, that you have to be flawless and show no trace of weakness, never be taken aback, be ready to face whatever social , situaion without looking foolish or stupid. Not letting others any chance to hurt you You may be rehearsing going to the bakedry, doing every step right and then BAM something unexpected arising that destroys your plot, forces you to improvise and feeling incapable to do so and hating yourself for that. Just imagining from a doc I watched on autism. People with NPDs often have anxiety because they think the same. In my case I was afraid of looking stupid at a party where there is a llack of structure, people come and go, you odn't know when its' going to end and fear being all alone, looking stupid. I still do feel more comfortable in contained environment or when social contact is not the main purpose of an event (such as at work). But on the whole I have outgrown this anxiety and tend to be much more confident than before and see the world as much less hostile. Don't know if it speaks to you. If it does, I'd liek to say that people who judge have a problem. Few people are non-judgmental. I was thinking that working on your own judgmental thinking towards others may be a first step, but for that you must be able to imagine thiings from their side. I think autistic people have a hard time doing that. Is it possible you think? Also in order to see things from someone else's view, the best is to ask the person questions. The idea is getting to know the world and grow a compassionate parent. I would think that many autistic people may have the same problem as you and I woulandn't know how you can grow to have compassion for you. You may want to check with them. The problem is that when you believe people are against us, we have a good chance to make them against us. Don't know if it helps.
I think that a lot of us who are Asperger's (I was diagnosed with autism after they removed the Asperger's label, but I would have been called Asperger's in the past) develop Cluster B PD characteristics in our attempts to compensate. I believe I have some borderline & vulnerable narcissistic pathology. As a child I was encouraged to be grandiose-narcissistic by my mother (who has more overtly narcissistic tendencies, but I don't want to paint her black or portray her as an unempathetic abuser, because that wouldn't be accurate) but I failed in playing that role and rebelled against it. I don't believe my mother is autistic but she is maybe ADHD. Her older brother, my uncle, is probably Asperger's but most people first recognize his obvious narcissistic tendencies and behaviours. As autistic people we are born very sensitive, other people do not attune well to our needs and emotions, and we struggle to learn from people around us. These are the conditions that create PDs, if I am not mistaken. It sounds like you are very cruel to yourself. I am very cruel to myself too. That self-directed cruelty is part of what motivates narcissistic defences. I have dug myself really deep into the rabbit hole of obsessing over whether I am "a narcissist", self-harming by going down spirals of consuming vicious amateurish material about how disgusting and draining and toxic and worthless narcissistic people are and telling myself over and over and over that's how others experience me. I have to find my way out of this now. The only way I can find my way out is by accepting "what if I am? Why am I like this? What do I do about it?". BorderlinerNotes videos are a real lifeline for me.
@@m_butterfly2I feel like this too. I've been questioning for a while. Am I a narcissist for hating other narcissist? I fell into a depression and hated myself for a while but I'm just starting therapy. I told myself whatever diagnoses I get is what I'll accept and do what I can to make things better for myself and others too.
@@m_butterfly2 I came at this problem from a different angle, I guess. When I started to realize that my mother is (probably) NPD, I was angry at first. But then I tried to develop more empathy, so started to look at her own family history, and for resources on why NPD develops (often passed down through families). In doing so, I started realizing I also have narcissistic traits, so approaching both her and me with empathy, while also seeing the need for distance and change. It may or may not help that I still live with her, so there's probably some enmeshment going on there too.
I wonder too as a vulnerable NPD (technically could go by BPD but I know I have NPD). BPD seems still blurry. Many are really vulnerable NPDs ( BPD + another bad decision). Shrinks don't really make the difference if any, but it seems there is. What I don't relate to is the emotonal regulation theory.
@ThreetwoOne-wu7ye I have traits of it, yes. I feel enslaved to my own standards and work constantly to meet them. A lot of it is about my work output, but I also have a bad case of moral scrupulosity, so I'm constantly quadruple checking everything I do for mistakes or failures. I can't tolerate it when I mess something up (as is 100% normal and natural), I feel like I'm in imminent danger or something terrible will happen. Especially if someone else points out or is affected by my mistake--or I believe they have--I feel like I've hurt them immensely and that I have to so everything under the sun to fix it, shame-spiraling for having let myself get "'sloppy " I am not entirely all the way through understanding that my moral/productivity/performance standards aren't healthy or normal, and swing between feeling inferior myself or being extremely frustrated with the complacency of people around me. It's like wanting to do good in the world is a curse more than a good-natured drive. I want to be able to defuse it and let it be something like that, but I've never known a life without being this way. What does it feel like with NPD?
@@TheHouseElf Damn I lost my 2nd answer to you. Totally enslaved for different reasons, such as making sure the future won't trick me (preparing loads of goood material, becoming obsessive, never enough, LIfle won't take me by surprise (life as enemy) and being also: than my colleagues (not for my reputation but justin my brain)
@@TheHouseElf Lost my 4th comment. So similar that I wanted to answer now but I am exactly bullying myself! Pleae remind me if I forget. Now don't take it wrong, but I tended to believe that OCPD would automatically mean NPD) because it does in my case. Please don't imagine that I want to make a point. Absolutely not. On the contrary, I am curious, super curious in fact! My experience with work is very similar
@@nicholeflaherty6402 People with BPD have a lot of empathy, except for some of the ones with narcissistic or histrionic traits. I'm not diagnosed with BPD or BPD traits though. I personally don't know how it feels to have BPD. I'm diagnosed with NPD. I have known people with BPD though and most of them were empathetic.
This is one of the ways in which I feel bad for narcissists: they really feel worthless and some even feel self-contempt. They beat themselves up *at times* when they're not deluding themselves that they're superior to others.
That must be terrible about narcissist. I also feel bad. I think this is empathy? I feel bad because my ex has NPD and I love him. Really didn’t want him to feel this way. But maybe this is useless. He’s burning all the bridges. He just had his family, me and a friend. Most recently he said he just had this friend and me, because his family stopped talking to him. Now I stopped too, due to the level of toxicity he has.
Narcissistic self injury is important. The affected person is cruel to herself/himself in ways they do not understand, and for reasons they have never considered. Shame is inculcated at an early age, too early for the child to be able to abstractly extirpate himself/herself from the corrosive quagmire that habitual self reproach becomes. It is a mode of being which one does not choose. One would not choose it for someone else, as revealed in a hypothetical put to the patient. So the interpretation arises, "You hold a double standard against yourself. Perhaps the time has come to review that." Because a modal shift is not instantly possible for human beings, the therapist can assign the patient to prepare self-forgiveness self statements. Experiment with those, say, two days a week. Journal the results with respect to mood and general outlook. Pulling oneself out of the mode of self-reproach takes work. This should be expected given the nature of human consciousness.
This is excellent, thank you.
Thank you for this. I don't have a formal diagnosis, but I have many of the struggles of NPD and self-hatred is high on that list. "Self-reflection" is something I've done all my life and it only leads to shame and depression, nothing constructive.
@@AlastorTheNPDemon Hi, I am one and have a lot of insight (not bragging). We believe we self-reflect but we arre really having discussions (so to speak) with our inner bully .
@@ThreetwoOne-wu7ye Yeah, I tell that SOB to eat shit every day.
We failed to grow an internal parent because we put a bully into place that prevented that. We redirected our anger against life towards ourselves as a means to have a sense of control. We probably experienced events as life-threatening from day zero (birth itself) . We made the attacks about ourselfves (control) which corresponds to trauma or what Kernberg calls 1st defence mechanism (resulting in BPD). The bully is a way to give a message to life: you won't hurt me anymore because I'll do it myself. But as a consequencce we believe life is mad at us and will stab us in the back asap.. The mum is rejected , refuge in fantasies of autosufficency.
So, Life is against ourself. We hate the adult world. We send someone else to do the job. This someone is us, but we can't identify with that person who is playing by the rules of adults, we self-destruct...We believe there is something wrong, that we are missing a part. I once told my shrink that I wasn't motivated to take care of me. To which he answered: but then who is going to do it? I knew his answer was totally logical, but I felft it was so unfair and doomed. I could never do that.: I had already put so much energy in trying to be an ault, bullied into being one and punished into being one by this supertyranical ego, and in addition I had to take care of that person?
Thoughts..
"I'm going to stamp-out old age" was what I told myself for most of my childhood. I was an alcoholic by age 18, smoked 2 packs of cig. a day and had a difficult time dealing with responsibility. My self-punishment began to transform into a desire for meaning and I began recovery at age 37. Oddly, I see my life-story as a narcissistic transformation from the destruction of a death wish (Freud?) to a life of health and happiness.
I'm happy that you're on the road to recovery.
It seems like BPD is like this, but without the self- aggrandizement.
i used to lash myself with a belt after a day of mistakes, i have aspergers. but i worry im npd
I am an NPD. Do you realize that your fear about having NPD is just like being afraid to dscover that you may be autistic? Not to say they are the same but you have lved with autism for all your life and learning you ha autism today, whould not change the person you are.
Forget about labels. All the angry 'victims' or 'survivors' have NPD.T
This label was vilified from the starts, including by experts which itells more about them, than about people with NPD. but trust me, it is not a moral disorder. I have come to this conclusion.
But we did make wrong choices as babies that we may see as sins. I am not a beiliever.
I don't know if you have NPD and consider it as a label and consider all the hatred online against NPD as weakness. Good people don't hate..
Maybe you attacked yourself but you want desperately to be part of this world and you have grown the belief early on, that you have to be flawless and show no trace of weakness, never be taken aback, be ready to face whatever social , situaion without looking foolish or stupid. Not letting others any chance to hurt you
You may be rehearsing going to the bakedry, doing every step right and then BAM something unexpected arising that destroys your plot, forces you to improvise and feeling incapable to do so and hating yourself for that.
Just imagining from a doc I watched on autism. People with NPDs often have anxiety because they think the same. In my case I was afraid of looking stupid at a party where there is a llack of structure, people come and go, you odn't know when its' going to end and fear being all alone, looking stupid. I still do feel more comfortable in contained environment or when social contact is not the main purpose of an event (such as at work). But on the whole I have outgrown this anxiety and tend to be much more confident than before and see the world as much less hostile.
Don't know if it speaks to you. If it does, I'd liek to say that people who judge have a problem. Few people are non-judgmental. I was thinking that working on your own judgmental thinking towards others may be a first step, but for that you must be able to imagine thiings from their side. I think autistic people have a hard time doing that. Is it possible you think? Also in order to see things from someone else's view, the best is to ask the person questions. The idea is getting to know the world and grow a compassionate parent.
I would think that many autistic people may have the same problem as you and I woulandn't know how you can grow to have compassion for you.
You may want to check with them. The problem is that when you believe people are against us, we have a good chance to make them against us. Don't know if it helps.
I think that a lot of us who are Asperger's (I was diagnosed with autism after they removed the Asperger's label, but I would have been called Asperger's in the past) develop Cluster B PD characteristics in our attempts to compensate. I believe I have some borderline & vulnerable narcissistic pathology. As a child I was encouraged to be grandiose-narcissistic by my mother (who has more overtly narcissistic tendencies, but I don't want to paint her black or portray her as an unempathetic abuser, because that wouldn't be accurate) but I failed in playing that role and rebelled against it. I don't believe my mother is autistic but she is maybe ADHD. Her older brother, my uncle, is probably Asperger's but most people first recognize his obvious narcissistic tendencies and behaviours. As autistic people we are born very sensitive, other people do not attune well to our needs and emotions, and we struggle to learn from people around us. These are the conditions that create PDs, if I am not mistaken.
It sounds like you are very cruel to yourself. I am very cruel to myself too. That self-directed cruelty is part of what motivates narcissistic defences. I have dug myself really deep into the rabbit hole of obsessing over whether I am "a narcissist", self-harming by going down spirals of consuming vicious amateurish material about how disgusting and draining and toxic and worthless narcissistic people are and telling myself over and over and over that's how others experience me. I have to find my way out of this now. The only way I can find my way out is by accepting "what if I am? Why am I like this? What do I do about it?". BorderlinerNotes videos are a real lifeline for me.
@@m_butterfly2I feel like this too. I've been questioning for a while. Am I a narcissist for hating other narcissist? I fell into a depression and hated myself for a while but I'm just starting therapy. I told myself whatever diagnoses I get is what I'll accept and do what I can to make things better for myself and others too.
@@m_butterfly2 I came at this problem from a different angle, I guess. When I started to realize that my mother is (probably) NPD, I was angry at first. But then I tried to develop more empathy, so started to look at her own family history, and for resources on why NPD develops (often passed down through families). In doing so, I started realizing I also have narcissistic traits, so approaching both her and me with empathy, while also seeing the need for distance and change. It may or may not help that I still live with her, so there's probably some enmeshment going on there too.
How does this contrast with borderline or OCPD self-destruction, I wonder?
I wonder too as a vulnerable NPD (technically could go by BPD but I know I have NPD). BPD seems still blurry. Many are really vulnerable NPDs ( BPD + another bad decision). Shrinks don't really make the difference if any, but it seems there is. What I don't relate to is the emotonal regulation theory.
Do you have OCPD? I don't really know. how OCPD presents. I am perfectionist and too me it is part of my NPD.
@ThreetwoOne-wu7ye I have traits of it, yes. I feel enslaved to my own standards and work constantly to meet them. A lot of it is about my work output, but I also have a bad case of moral scrupulosity, so I'm constantly quadruple checking everything I do for mistakes or failures. I can't tolerate it when I mess something up (as is 100% normal and natural), I feel like I'm in imminent danger or something terrible will happen. Especially if someone else points out or is affected by my mistake--or I believe they have--I feel like I've hurt them immensely and that I have to so everything under the sun to fix it, shame-spiraling for having let myself get "'sloppy "
I am not entirely all the way through understanding that my moral/productivity/performance standards aren't healthy or normal, and swing between feeling inferior myself or being extremely frustrated with the complacency of people around me. It's like wanting to do good in the world is a curse more than a good-natured drive. I want to be able to defuse it and let it be something like that, but I've never known a life without being this way.
What does it feel like with NPD?
@@TheHouseElf Damn I lost my 2nd answer to you. Totally enslaved for different reasons, such as making sure the future won't trick me (preparing loads of goood material, becoming obsessive, never enough, LIfle won't take me by surprise (life as enemy) and being also: than my colleagues (not for my reputation but justin my brain)
@@TheHouseElf Lost my 4th comment. So similar that I wanted to answer now but I am exactly bullying myself! Pleae remind me if I forget.
Now don't take it wrong, but I tended to believe that OCPD would automatically mean NPD) because it does in my case.
Please don't imagine that I want to make a point. Absolutely not. On the contrary, I am curious, super curious in fact! My experience with work is very similar
Very interesting.
Thanks as always
He explains things very clearly. Awesome set-up btw 👏
Hello, I like your work very much and I want to follow it, I'm having a little trouble with the language. Can you bring a Turkish subtitle option?
I’ll accept the “narcissist” title….I rather be the villain 🦹♀️…..run…..stay away😂👍
@borderlinernotes do you have any clips on narcissistic collapse/mortification?
Borderlines have high amounts of empathy i..m.o
@@nicholeflaherty6402 People with BPD have a lot of empathy, except for some of the ones with narcissistic or histrionic traits.
I'm not diagnosed with BPD or BPD traits though. I personally don't know how it feels to have BPD. I'm diagnosed with NPD. I have known people with BPD though and most of them were empathetic.
@@nicholeflaherty6402 I do too as an NPD
@@knick9318 That's wrong. I am an NPD and do have empathy and am a very good listener. The DSMV-TR has corrected that. This war on labels is vain.
@@ThreetwoOne-wu7ye I never said that people with NPD have zero empathy.
✅
This is one of the ways in which I feel bad for narcissists: they really feel worthless and some even feel self-contempt. They beat themselves up *at times* when they're not deluding themselves that they're superior to others.
Why would you feel bad for us?
That must be terrible about narcissist. I also feel bad. I think this is empathy? I feel bad because my ex has NPD and I love him. Really didn’t want him to feel this way. But maybe this is useless. He’s burning all the bridges. He just had his family, me and a friend. Most recently he said he just had this friend and me, because his family stopped talking to him. Now I stopped too, due to the level of toxicity he has.