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I mean they brainwashed young adults and many children to be suicide bombers during ww2 just because they were losing and didn't want to surrender and end the war and all the death. It took 2 atomic bombs for them to finally give up.
My grandma (my father's mother) told me WWII stories from all aspect. Once a German Wermacht officer was sheltered for a winter in their house (1943-44 or 1944-45 I don't know), than Soviet troops came in - fortunately my grand-grand father (my grandmother's father) could speak very well Russian - as he was a WWI (alias The Great War) POW in Siberia. He got into Russian Tzarist capture during the Carpathian fights and took to a Siberian POW camp. When the Great Socialist Revolution broke out in the fall of 1917, the prison guards fled away (to took part in either side of the fights or just get disappeared). My grand-grand pa came home and it took about a year to get back to Hungary - with everything you can imagine, stowaway on cargo trains, hitch-hiking horse carriages, horse sleds, swam through huge rivers, came on foot, etc. So he had time to learn Russian a lot. But in the summer of 1944 USAAF 15th Airforce attacked Hungarian targets around Budapest, and flew from Italian bases. Their way flew over the south-west corner of the Lake Balaton, where my grandma lived that time. Many times fighter planes dogfighted down low at tree top level, and once an American bomber crew were kept under the supervision of the village’s mayor and some gendarme. They suffered no harm at all. My grandma told me that they could keep the parachute and could make bed sheet out of it. Also she said there was a “little gypsy guy”. Okay, she only saw gypsies in her life, maybe the guy was some kind of Latino, and being small, must be the ball turret gunner. She had many interesting stories, but since she is not with us for almost 30years, I cannot ask her to tell me more about these events.
My parents were from Malta, while there was military targets in the bay, all of Malta was open season. The sky was the pilots war theater. The enemy wasn't too worried about collateral damage or civilian casualties as the old adage states, alls fair in love and war.
In short: shooting parachuting pilots is a war crime, but shooting paratroopers is ok, I’ll tell you why: A downed airman is out of the fight, he lost his means of combat, having a pistol doesn’t change that, he’s out and must be given the opportunity to surrender when he lands. If he chooses to resist, than he becomes a legitimate target again. A paratrooper can be shot at because he’s a combatant with means to fight when he lands, if he’s vulnerable in the air, tough luck, he chose that way to get into combat. Source: I’m an International Relations major, focused on law and armed conflicts. If ever in doubt, just ask yourself if the subject is an active combatant.
@@Tonetwisters so you’re saying shooting people on parachutes is right? TJ3 listed the sources in the video, but I’ll write it down too: Protocol Additional to the Geneva Conventions of 12 August 1949, and relating to the Protection of Victims of International Armed Conflicts (Protocol I), Geneva, 8 June 1977, Article 42. 1. No person parachuting from an aircraft in distress shall be made the object of attack during his descent. 2. Upon reaching the ground in territory controlled by an adverse Party, a person who has parachuted from an aircraft in distress shall be given an opportunity to surrender before being made the object of attack, unless it is apparent that he is engaging in a hostile act. 3. Airborne troops are not protected by this Article
Actually, that sounds pretty fair, impartial and just. I'm thinking that a lot of soldiers and civilians saw airmen as a kind of sniper. That is, firing at people who don't know where it's coming from and have no way of protecting themselves and their families while the shooter stays relatively safe and out of reach. Just a theory.
@@tylerb4235 well, you’re wrong and you’d be a war criminal, plain and simple, no way around it. War is war and stuff happens, but if you were on the losing side, you’d be put on trial. You might not agree, but it is what it is, I would encourage you to watch some videos on the subject. Over and out.
The sponsor had me thinking, what do we need to do to bully Gaijin into giving you a custom in game decal we can get. Regardless, another excellent video TJ, keep up the good work!
Hungarian pilots did not shot enemy parachutist, it was strictly forbidden. Although, Americans did over Hungary. I don't know about the VVS (Soviet pilots) but not unimaginable. But also happened the opposite as well. One Hungarian 109's pilot was warned by a P-51 Mustang pilot, that his aircraft is burning time to get out. The Hungarian pilot jumped, but unfortunately hit the stick with his legs. It was unintentionally as nobody could do this by will under such a stressful circumstances. The 109 hit the P-51 - mid air collision - and the American pilot died in the plane during the crash. He was buried with military honor. I will check his name but I need some time.* *Not much time: He was the pilot named Horace Seymour Hudson, Jr. from the 15th AF, 52nd FG, 2nd FS. KIA 5. November, 1944., over Hungary. Aircraft flown: North American P-51C-5-NT Mustang, s.n.: 42-103570. He was a Travis County, Texas resident, he took of for his last flight from Madna Airfield, Italy. There is a ID number what I don’t know what it is: “O-716147” “P-51D flown by Horace S. Hudson 52ndFG, 2nd FS. "This pilot saved the life of a hungarian by warning him of his burning tail. Unfortunately during the jump his foot hit the rudder, and the Bf- 109 G6 crashed into Hudsons Mustang, what crashed to the ground claiming his life. What to say, salute and honour to those who remained humans even in the middle of a cruel war." (text from warcry.hu)” Some sources say that he was buried in France. Also says that he was killed over Germany. No Hungarian pilots fought over Germany that time. The last group handed over themselves to the Americans in Austria, in the last weeks of the ETO events. Strange. www.findagrave.com/memorial/56656464/horace_seymour-hudson www.honorstates.org/index.php?id=113961
One British flying officer said that he shot German pilots in parachutes, justifying his action, saying, “They were trying to enslave us.” That’s a powerful argument. Yet another pilot, a British sergeant, had a German pilot’s parachute wrap itself around one of his wings. He mercifully turned the wing down and the chute gently slid off the wing and opened. It’s hard to condemn either action.
a single pilot in a parachute can't enslave anyone. not a justification in the slightest. it's a war crime. If a parachute gets wrapped on your airplane, it can crash your airplane. getting it off your plane is not an act of mercy. it's self preservation.
There is an incorrect assumption the Germans started the practice before the Allies during WW2 because the first documented account, as you stated, was from a Polish pilot but there is no way to tell who started the practice first since most victims did not survive to tell the tale. What we do know is that, unfortunately, it was something done by everyone despite being considered by many as an act of cowardice.
Well, it isn't quite an assumption as much as it is an observation. It was literally the first day of the war. Haha. But again - sure many don't survive, but witnesses often do. And the evidence of men killed in their chutes in clearly visible to bystanders once they land on the ground. I will also add as well - that there was an earlier account of the Japanese doing it to the Chinese in 1937 I believe that I read about. But I didn't include it since it wasn't in the actual war just yet.
You know its going to be a great weekend when you turn on your computer and see TJ has posted a new video. Some how TJ'S videos keep getting better and better. You won't find a better or more researched video than TJ's. Please Keep up the amazing work. Thanks for helping preserve History. Have a Great weekend buddy. Please keep 'em flyin, We've got your six.
I was in the USAF. Fighter pilots are considered knights and are bound by the transitions of knights of old to be honorable. Its the same for airmen who are POW's. Air force POW camps on both sides are generally better than for common soldiers.
For me, it is a matter of morals. The problem is that in times of war, morality is one of the first casualties. Most of us are at peace in our homes, so it is easy for us to say it is atrocious and barbaric to attack someone who is not representing immediate danger. But think about it: imagine you've been in conflict for months, and you have lost good friends to enemy attacks. At some point, your brain will think, "If I let this dude go, he will come back to kill more of us. Better get rid of him." Or you could just be blinded by vengeance and want to see the enemy dead, no matter who they are. If you know any veteran who has seen the horrors of war, I bet they can tell you that one loses their north quite often in war.
For me, it’s a tough call. There were paratroopers who were mutilated and murdered after hitting the ground. Here was one commanders response to his men: “As more paratroopers landed and began to make contact with other troopers, stories of dead American paratroopers whose bodies had been grossly mutilated by Germans soldiers spread. Coming upon such a scene, one 101st Captain - William Oatman - turned to his soldiers and said 'don't you guys dare take any prisoners!”
Bud Anderson had a very interesting experience regarding this topic. I thought you were going to cover it in your 3 part episode. You didn't cover it. If you are unaware , read his book. In it, he noticed a German going from chute to chute killing Americans in their chute. He got on the guys tail and wanted to make him bail out. He lightly peppered his plane and eventually the German had to bail out. Bud got his revenge. Most American pilots did not do this. I also spoke to a B17 copilot shot down on March 6th mission to Berlin. He survived, his pilot did not They bailed out of the plane at same time. I asked what happened to him and he said he didnt know but it was common to get shot in chutes or civilians killing you. WOW!
I immediately thought about the video with the interview he gave! It is definitely somewhere here on RUclips. Mice meat (or something like that) he called it where he turned the German pilot into with those 6 x .50 cal machine guns. Amazing story!
Bomber crews getting killed by civilians was not uncomon. But there are not many instances known of bomber crews getting shot at while hanging in the chute. From 1944 onwards the Germans had lost air superiority over the Reich and it would‘nt make sense for them to stay longer than necessary in the combat zone just to shoot down an enemy that would fall into your own hands anyway.
Another outstanding an enlightening video my friend, I always enjoy watching you're work!! Thank you so much for you're dedication to our veterans!! God bless.
As despicable as I find shooting parachutes, I don't see why that is wrong if torpedoing hundreds of merchant ships is ok. Both have the same conclusion of killing defenseless people who cannot fight back.
Movement of military logistics and the interdiction of same is as old as warfare itself. Singling out one unarmed man under a chute and putting a cannon shell through his chest is not the same.
@@AB-mw8oz My old man carried a Beretta, then later a US Colt .45. more for defence against the Bedouin than anything. His mate was shot by a 109, but he never had the urge to copy that behaviour even after he himself was shot down. RAF had their directives against that sort of thing, and for good reason.
My mother's first husband, a P-47 pilot, has shot down over Germany on 4 August 1944 and according to his wingman was KIA in his parachute. That was the story I was always told. There was a letter to my mother from the wingman stating this fact. Unfortunately the letter is no longer in my possession. His name has Lt. Joseph Mills.
Exactly. A downed airman is out of the fight, but a paratrooper can be targeted because he’s an active combatant. If he’s vulnerable in the air, tough luck.
Of notable mention was the one recorded downing of a Japanese plane by a pilot desending in his parachute and drawing his sidearm. Correct me if I'm wrong but I heard the Japanese pilot was slowing down to see if he still needed to finish off the desending pilot after taking one pass at him already.
Yes, that's a somewhat well known story and the claim is that he not only shot at the Japanese pilot with his sidearm, but that he in fact struck the pilot in the head, killing him. Not sure if any part of the story has been corroborated.
11:00 English military : "we will not shoot people in parachutes". German military: "This is a war crime. We will not do it." US military: "blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah....and that's why people in parachutes are not legitimate military targets"..... 😆
It takes a long time and resources to train a pilot, The Pilot is the weapon, the aircraft is his tool. Is a pilot floating to earth in a parachute defenseless? Yes in that moment he is. But if he lands on friendly ground, he's going to be returned to his squadron, given a new plane, and will be fighting again is short order. War is barbaric, bad things happen. I do not like this but I understand it. Is it a war crime? The victors will say yes it is, to the vanquished, who will reply with well your guys did it to us too. War is hell, we should endeavor to not making war on our fellow man, lest it be made on us.
I believe I read that Chuck Yeager, a young P-51 pilot during WWII, when his fighter was shot down bailed out in thick clouds. Knowing that German fighters would shoot at Allied pilots parachuting, he did not deploy his chute right away. Instead while falling he curled himself into a ball and counted off seconds he estimated would take him closer to the ground with less time parachuting. He did this while not being able to see the ground due to the cloud cover. That is quick thinking, and courage. He eventually was lucky enough to join up with Spanish partisans, and after months finally made his way back to England to fly again, and shoot down more Axis planes. [I read somewhere else that while with the Spanish resistance he ate far better meals than available to pilots in England. Upon return he was tanned and well fed, and shocked at his fellow pilots' haggard appearance. This anecdote may have been from the book, The Right Stuff.]
The pilot is a limited resource of war requiring training and infrastructure. A parachuting pilot is not yet in custody. Until he is captured and a POW he is a resource that can return to fight. War is war.
Allowing your enemies to survive combat means you will combat them again. I bet they wish they had gotten Chuck Yeager he killed 11 more pilots after he was shot down and returned to combat
That’s not how the Geneva convention sees it. A downed airman is out of action, he lost his weapon (the plane), he’s no longer a threat. Having a handgun doesn’t nullify that. When he lands, he must be given the opportunity to surrender, if he chooses to fight back, then he becomes a combatant once again. That’s not my opinion, it’s just how it is.
I read somewhere that at a point (it's all vague memory now) that LeMay ordered his pilots to put the German pilots to the gun. It's been years since I read that so I can't recall the citation.
The unnamed pilot of the 352nd Fighter Squadron is quoted as saying he merely used his gun cameras to film the downed enemy in his chute- could these cameras be operated without firing?
It is against the Geneva Convention to target a pilot descending under a parachute. It is legal to engage paratroopers as that is their method of delivery to the combat area.
If the pilot is likely to parachute into enemy territory the odds of capture are high, thus his skills will be neutralized. No reason to kill a likely POW. However if he will land in friendly territory then he will return to combat so fire away. The next enemy he kills might be you.
Good video. You explained things very well with different ideas and concepts. The Japanese were brutal, that's why so few Japanese prisoners were taken.
I’d say it was ungentlemanly behaviour but not a war crime. Soldiers would kill opponents retreating, for instance. Your job is to kill the opponent, it’s his job to kill you after all. Just because he’s had to bail out doesn’t make him any less an opponent. But the same applies both ways, if a parachutist is a valid target then it is any parachutist. Your as likely to be a target. Indeed many parachutists were shot when they were invading counties, bailing out of passengers aircraft they became floating targets for opponents. Many German parachutists died before touching the ground in WW2 It’s because of these high casualties rates that Hitler put a stop to invasion by air.
It seems that orders were given to shoot at pilots from ME 262 as training these pilots was quite unique. A logical decision. However, can't remember the source-maybe Toliver and Constable, HORRIDO?
As Dowding said if they over their home ground it was fair, as then they couldn’t come back in another aircraft and shoot you down, if however they were over your territory is was murder
@3:00 Ira Jones was friends with the British ace of aces, Edward "Mick" Mannock, who was a great patrol leader and utterly ruthless in the air. Mick had a deep hatred of the enemy --- it's said there were only two passions in his life: he hated Germans, and he loved to kill them.
The 'voice over' at 11± mins about 'The United Nations' can't possibly be accurate ... it was only formed after the end of WW11 as far as i can recall ...!?
First of all, it made no sense for a German pilot to shoot men in parachutes since at that phase of the war interceptions occurred over German territory. It was all just a tale to excuse allied pilots shooting Germans after they bailed out. Even before aircraft were written into international treaty, the assumption was that parachuting fliers should be treated like the crews of sinking ships and were not to be fired upon. I really don't buy the Polish account about an ME-110 pilot being so consumed with shooting him that he got himself shot down. If I were making this video, I'd try to find corroboration, especially given Dzwonek's role in propaganda under the post war Communist regime which made him a celebrity pilot. The Germans didn't bother him while he was recovering in hospital from burns to his face and both hands and later escaped from the hospital and lived under an assumed name. You only have his say so given at a time when he was part of a regime that told many exaggerations about the hated nazis to justify and excuse post war ethnic cleansing. This video is clearly a biased white washing that rather nakedly tries to excuse the killing of Germans in the Battle of Britain by Poles and Czechs as "returning the favor." "Returning the favor" for what, the one dubious incident listed? Besides the fact that the Germans never fought the Czechs in the air up to that time. Next you'll be quoting Richard Peterson's tired tale which his own squadron mates dismissed as complete rubbish (He wasn't well regarded and more than one man in his wing confronted him both during and after the war). This is a pretty sketchy effort to put the blame on the Germans. At this point I could not be bothered to watch further.
Unfortunately, guerilla/non military combatants are not governed by the Geneva Convention. The Viet Cong were not restricted in their method of combat. U.S. troops were accused of war crimes while there was no such attempts to prosecute or charge them. A one way dirty war only helps one side. War in and of itself is a crime against humanity.
Its a dirty tactic and unbecoming a pilot officer.I cant see Aces like Manfred von Richthofen AKA The Red Baron or Adolf Galland reduce themselves to such morally wrong activities.
The Japanese had no trouble shooting men as they fell. As they the Japanese thought it was cowards way out to bail from a fight. As well you should look into the practice of American sailors who gunned down any Japanese seamen
If an airman from a downed bomber bombing civilians (after all, they could put their hands up!) lands on the ground then those civilians can't kill him? I wonder why then he could have killed their children a minute ago? For consideration.
The U.S. withdrew from the Geneva Conventions in February 2002. We have not rejoined it. President Bush withdrew from the convention because it limits the ability to torture detainees and the methods that can be applied in interrogation. The president has the power to unilaterally remove the U.S. from a treaty, but the Senate must ratify a treaty by a vote of 2/3. No one has been able to get a majority of the Senate to vote for reratification.
Nope. What you are referring to is the American Service members Protection Act of 2002 which allowed the US to forcefully recover American citizens or citizens of nations allied to the US being held by the ICC. It also allowed the United States to use force against nations or groups committing ethnic cleansing, genocide or crimes against humanity. It was all done in the interest of National Security and was signed 7 months after the September 11th attacks
Christian cultures have a moral and ethical prohibition on "Murder". "Thou shalt not Murder (kill)". Murder is usually defined as the killing of the innocent and the defenseless. Which is why the killing of babies is Always seen as murder no matter the justification of the act. The killing of the unarmed (the defenseless) by the armed is also seen as murder. A pilot hanging under a parachute would fit the description of defenseless. However, other cultures are not bound by Christian ethics. So it depends on who wins the war as to who gets to define what is Moral or Ethical or Criminal. ;)
There is no fair play in war , not even in time of peace, life is an unfair bitch ! But yeah , it can be beautiful with a little bit of luck and a bit of fortune !
I know this sounds horrid, but those pilots were not surrendering. They were abandoning their killing machines because of mechanical failure. These pilots (if left alone) would be back up in a new killing machine as soon as possible. Shooting men in parachutes or shooting men in life boats is (in my opinion) a war crime. I also believe war itself is a crime.
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Its sad how much the Japanese believe they are honerable, but they continually do the most dishonerable things.
I mean they brainwashed young adults and many children to be suicide bombers during ww2 just because they were losing and didn't want to surrender and end the war and all the death. It took 2 atomic bombs for them to finally give up.
That is, until the Bomb fell.
The Japanese were absolute savages during WWII.
And yet, Japan today easily ranks among the most civilized nations on earth, with a homicide rate 1/20th of the USA.
@@thomasgrzelak4477 I'm moving to Japan then.
My grandma (my father's mother) told me WWII stories from all aspect. Once a German Wermacht officer was sheltered for a winter in their house (1943-44 or 1944-45 I don't know), than Soviet troops came in - fortunately my grand-grand father (my grandmother's father) could speak very well Russian - as he was a WWI (alias The Great War) POW in Siberia. He got into Russian Tzarist capture during the Carpathian fights and took to a Siberian POW camp. When the Great Socialist Revolution broke out in the fall of 1917, the prison guards fled away (to took part in either side of the fights or just get disappeared). My grand-grand pa came home and it took about a year to get back to Hungary - with everything you can imagine, stowaway on cargo trains, hitch-hiking horse carriages, horse sleds, swam through huge rivers, came on foot, etc. So he had time to learn Russian a lot. But in the summer of 1944 USAAF 15th Airforce attacked Hungarian targets around Budapest, and flew from Italian bases. Their way flew over the south-west corner of the Lake Balaton, where my grandma lived that time. Many times fighter planes dogfighted down low at tree top level, and once an American bomber crew were kept under the supervision of the village’s mayor and some gendarme. They suffered no harm at all. My grandma told me that they could keep the parachute and could make bed sheet out of it. Also she said there was a “little gypsy guy”. Okay, she only saw gypsies in her life, maybe the guy was some kind of Latino, and being small, must be the ball turret gunner. She had many interesting stories, but since she is not with us for almost 30years, I cannot ask her to tell me more about these events.
My parents were from Malta, while there was military targets in the bay, all of Malta was open season. The sky was the pilots war theater. The enemy wasn't too worried about collateral damage or civilian casualties as the old adage states, alls fair in love and war.
In short: shooting parachuting pilots is a war crime, but shooting paratroopers is ok, I’ll tell you why:
A downed airman is out of the fight, he lost his means of combat, having a pistol doesn’t change that, he’s out and must be given the opportunity to surrender when he lands. If he chooses to resist, than he becomes a legitimate target again.
A paratrooper can be shot at because he’s a combatant with means to fight when he lands, if he’s vulnerable in the air, tough luck, he chose that way to get into combat.
Source: I’m an International Relations major, focused on law and armed conflicts.
If ever in doubt, just ask yourself if the subject is an active combatant.
Sounds rather made up, to me. And just because something is in writing .... DOESN'T MAKE IT RIGHT!!!
@@Tonetwisters so you’re saying shooting people on parachutes is right? TJ3 listed the sources in the video, but I’ll write it down too:
Protocol Additional to the Geneva Conventions of 12 August 1949, and relating to the Protection of Victims of International Armed Conflicts (Protocol I), Geneva, 8 June 1977, Article 42.
1. No person parachuting from an aircraft in distress shall be made the object of attack during his descent.
2. Upon reaching the ground in territory controlled by an adverse Party, a person who has parachuted from an aircraft in distress shall be given an opportunity to surrender before being made the object of attack, unless it is apparent that he is engaging in a hostile act.
3. Airborne troops are not protected by this Article
If we are at war and he has the enemy uniform on.....he is an active combatant
Actually, that sounds pretty fair, impartial and just. I'm thinking that a lot of soldiers and civilians saw airmen as a kind of sniper. That is, firing at people who don't know where it's coming from and have no way of protecting themselves and their families while the shooter stays relatively safe and out of reach. Just a theory.
@@tylerb4235 well, you’re wrong and you’d be a war criminal, plain and simple, no way around it.
War is war and stuff happens, but if you were on the losing side, you’d be put on trial. You might not agree, but it is what it is, I would encourage you to watch some videos on the subject.
Over and out.
The sponsor had me thinking, what do we need to do to bully Gaijin into giving you a custom in game decal we can get. Regardless, another excellent video TJ, keep up the good work!
Thanks Jester!!
Hungarian pilots did not shot enemy parachutist, it was strictly forbidden. Although, Americans did over Hungary. I don't know about the VVS (Soviet pilots) but not unimaginable. But also happened the opposite as well. One Hungarian 109's pilot was warned by a P-51 Mustang pilot, that his aircraft is burning time to get out. The Hungarian pilot jumped, but unfortunately hit the stick with his legs. It was unintentionally as nobody could do this by will under such a stressful circumstances. The 109 hit the P-51 - mid air collision - and the American pilot died in the plane during the crash. He was buried with military honor. I will check his name but I need some time.*
*Not much time: He was the pilot named Horace Seymour Hudson, Jr. from the 15th AF, 52nd FG, 2nd FS. KIA 5. November, 1944., over Hungary. Aircraft flown: North American P-51C-5-NT Mustang, s.n.: 42-103570. He was a Travis County, Texas resident, he took of for his last flight from Madna Airfield, Italy. There is a ID number what I don’t know what it is: “O-716147”
“P-51D flown by Horace S. Hudson 52ndFG, 2nd FS. "This pilot saved the life of a hungarian by warning him of his burning tail. Unfortunately during the jump his foot hit the rudder, and the Bf-
109 G6 crashed into Hudsons Mustang, what crashed to the ground claiming his life. What to say, salute and honour to those who remained humans even in the middle of a cruel war." (text from warcry.hu)”
Some sources say that he was buried in France. Also says that he was killed over Germany. No Hungarian pilots fought over Germany that time. The last group handed over themselves to the Americans in Austria, in the last weeks of the ETO events. Strange.
www.findagrave.com/memorial/56656464/horace_seymour-hudson
www.honorstates.org/index.php?id=113961
One British flying officer said that he shot German pilots in parachutes, justifying his action, saying, “They were trying to enslave us.” That’s a powerful argument. Yet another pilot, a British sergeant, had a German pilot’s parachute wrap itself around one of his wings. He mercifully turned the wing down and the chute gently slid off the wing and opened. It’s hard to condemn either action.
no its easy if there are rules even in war if you break them you should be hold responsible
a single pilot in a parachute can't enslave anyone. not a justification in the slightest. it's a war crime.
If a parachute gets wrapped on your airplane, it can crash your airplane. getting it off your plane is not an act of mercy. it's self preservation.
There is an incorrect assumption the Germans started the practice before the Allies during WW2 because the first documented account, as you stated, was from a Polish pilot but there is no way to tell who started the practice first since most victims did not survive to tell the tale. What we do know is that, unfortunately, it was something done by everyone despite being considered by many as an act of cowardice.
Well, it isn't quite an assumption as much as it is an observation. It was literally the first day of the war. Haha. But again - sure many don't survive, but witnesses often do. And the evidence of men killed in their chutes in clearly visible to bystanders once they land on the ground. I will also add as well - that there was an earlier account of the Japanese doing it to the Chinese in 1937 I believe that I read about. But I didn't include it since it wasn't in the actual war just yet.
does not matter who startet what its a warcrime no matter whos side did it
The Japanese were notorious for gunning pilots who bailed.
Wild wehraboo apologist sighted
Think Japan started it.
As many allied and axis fighter pilot aces would say: War is war and the sky battlefield is a war between Angels and Demons.
A well-researched, objective, unbiased POV video!
Thank you TJ3 for bringing this to us. You're the best in the business regarding air combat. God bless you.
You know its going to be a great weekend when you turn on your computer and see TJ has posted a new video. Some how TJ'S videos keep getting better and better. You won't find a better or more researched video than TJ's. Please Keep up the amazing work. Thanks for helping preserve History. Have a Great weekend buddy. Please keep 'em flyin, We've got your six.
Always a sensitive issue, but you presented it very well in this video. Thank you for all you do, TJ.
Interesting and good graphics, sounds like it was a bit more widespread than Hollywood might show.
I was in the USAF. Fighter pilots are considered knights and are bound by the transitions of knights of old to be honorable. Its the same for airmen who are POW's. Air force POW camps on both sides are generally better than for common soldiers.
Thank you for being absolute true and honest. Something that is nowadays obsolete,
One of your better videos. Well done.
Thanks 👍
For me, it is a matter of morals. The problem is that in times of war, morality is one of the first casualties. Most of us are at peace in our homes, so it is easy for us to say it is atrocious and barbaric to attack someone who is not representing immediate danger. But think about it: imagine you've been in conflict for months, and you have lost good friends to enemy attacks. At some point, your brain will think, "If I let this dude go, he will come back to kill more of us. Better get rid of him." Or you could just be blinded by vengeance and want to see the enemy dead, no matter who they are. If you know any veteran who has seen the horrors of war, I bet they can tell you that one loses their north quite often in war.
For me, it’s a tough call. There were paratroopers who were mutilated and murdered after hitting the ground. Here was one commanders response to his men:
“As more paratroopers landed and began to make contact with other troopers, stories of dead American paratroopers whose bodies had been grossly mutilated by Germans soldiers spread. Coming upon such a scene, one 101st Captain - William Oatman - turned to his soldiers and said 'don't you guys dare take any prisoners!”
Bud Anderson had a very interesting experience regarding this topic. I thought you were going to cover it in your 3 part episode. You didn't cover it. If you are unaware , read his book. In it, he noticed a German going from chute to chute killing Americans in their chute. He got on the guys tail and wanted to make him bail out. He lightly peppered his plane and eventually the German had to bail out. Bud got his revenge. Most American pilots did not do this.
I also spoke to a B17 copilot shot down on March 6th mission to Berlin. He survived, his pilot did not They bailed out of the plane at same time. I asked what happened to him and he said he didnt know but it was common to get shot in chutes or civilians killing you. WOW!
I immediately thought about the video with the interview he gave! It is definitely somewhere here on RUclips. Mice meat (or something like that) he called it where he turned the German pilot into with those 6 x .50 cal machine guns. Amazing story!
Bomber crews getting killed by civilians was not uncomon. But there are not many instances known of bomber crews getting shot at while hanging in the chute. From 1944 onwards the Germans had lost air superiority over the Reich and it would‘nt make sense for them to stay longer than necessary in the combat zone just to shoot down an enemy that would fall into your own hands anyway.
Thank you Trent of TJ3......
Shoe🇺🇸
Another outstanding an enlightening video my friend, I always enjoy watching you're work!! Thank you so much for you're dedication to our veterans!! God bless.
Fascinating topic/dilemma indeed.
Causing the chute to collapse is savage...yet efficient.
As despicable as I find shooting parachutes, I don't see why that is wrong if torpedoing hundreds of merchant ships is ok. Both have the same conclusion of killing defenseless people who cannot fight back.
Movement of military logistics and the interdiction of same is as old as warfare itself. Singling out one unarmed man under a chute and putting a cannon shell through his chest is not the same.
@@bobsakamanos4469 Not unarmed, air crews would normally carry something like a 1911.
But not a threat, atleast not unless your name is Owen Baggett
@@AB-mw8oz My old man carried a Beretta, then later a US Colt .45. more for defence against the Bedouin than anything. His mate was shot by a 109, but he never had the urge to copy that behaviour even after he himself was shot down. RAF had their directives against that sort of thing, and for good reason.
My mother's first husband, a P-47 pilot, has shot down over Germany on 4 August 1944 and according to his wingman was KIA in his parachute. That was the story I was always told. There was a letter to my mother from the wingman stating this fact. Unfortunately the letter is no longer in my possession. His name has Lt. Joseph Mills.
Good perspective, as long as the person is not on a combatant mission (paratrooper or commando) but outside the battle is "distressed" is protected👍👍👍
Exactly. A downed airman is out of the fight, but a paratrooper can be targeted because he’s an active combatant. If he’s vulnerable in the air, tough luck.
@@macleunin
Hypothetical : What if "the person in distress "the pilot draws his pistol and starts shooting around in the chute?
@@janlindtner305 I think there’s only one known case of that happening, and it was because the japanese pilot was trying to strafe him.
Of notable mention was the one recorded downing of a Japanese plane by a pilot desending in his parachute and drawing his sidearm. Correct me if I'm wrong but I heard the Japanese pilot was slowing down to see if he still needed to finish off the desending pilot after taking one pass at him already.
Yes, that's a somewhat well known story and the claim is that he not only shot at the Japanese pilot with his sidearm, but that he in fact struck the pilot in the head, killing him. Not sure if any part of the story has been corroborated.
11:00 English military : "we will not shoot people in parachutes".
German military: "This is a war crime. We will not do it."
US military: "blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah....and that's why people in parachutes are not legitimate military targets".....
😆
Additionally, downed aircrews can be vital sources of information when captured alive, when using the proper “encouragement” techniques.
It takes a long time and resources to train a pilot, The Pilot is the weapon, the aircraft is his tool.
Is a pilot floating to earth in a parachute defenseless? Yes in that moment he is.
But if he lands on friendly ground, he's going to be returned to his squadron, given a new plane, and will be fighting again is short order.
War is barbaric, bad things happen. I do not like this but I understand it.
Is it a war crime? The victors will say yes it is, to the vanquished, who will reply with well your guys did it to us too.
War is hell, we should endeavor to not making war on our fellow man, lest it be made on us.
I believe I read that Chuck Yeager, a young P-51 pilot during WWII, when his fighter was shot down bailed out in thick clouds. Knowing that German fighters would shoot at Allied pilots parachuting, he did not deploy his chute right away. Instead while falling he curled himself into a ball and counted off seconds he estimated would take him closer to the ground with less time parachuting. He did this while not being able to see the ground due to the cloud cover. That is quick thinking, and courage. He eventually was lucky enough to join up with Spanish partisans, and after months finally made his way back to England to fly again, and shoot down more Axis planes. [I read somewhere else that while with the Spanish resistance he ate far better meals than available to pilots in England. Upon return he was tanned and well fed, and shocked at his fellow pilots' haggard appearance. This anecdote may have been from the book, The Right Stuff.]
The pilot is a limited resource of war requiring training and infrastructure. A parachuting pilot is not yet in custody. Until he is captured and a POW he is a resource that can return to fight. War is war.
Yep - this is certainly one perspective. And I think it is one that no one can fault for a pilot adhering to it.
Allowing your enemies to survive combat means you will combat them again. I bet they wish they had gotten Chuck Yeager he killed 11 more pilots after he was shot down and returned to combat
And he is armed combatant as they had handgun! And he could shoot down enemy planes ruclips.net/video/ol8XQ7GlU94/видео.html
That’s not how the Geneva convention sees it. A downed airman is out of action, he lost his weapon (the plane), he’s no longer a threat. Having a handgun doesn’t nullify that. When he lands, he must be given the opportunity to surrender, if he chooses to fight back, then he becomes a combatant once again.
That’s not my opinion, it’s just how it is.
Escalation of violence and retrobution on unarmed combatant needs to be avoided. Leadership ethics 101.
I read somewhere that at a point (it's all vague memory now) that LeMay ordered his pilots to put the German pilots to the gun. It's been years since I read that so I can't recall the citation.
Sounds like something that could be true!
Is like when a enemy ship get sunk and refusing to help the sailors on the wather
It was VERY rare except for the Japanese who did it routinely. They also shot down red cross planes and strafed rescue boats!
Your comment, “Dastardly act” - pretty much sums it up.
My father had a rule: "Given the opportunity, and over enemy-controlled territory, fair game."
...I think your father`s rule is wrong...imho...
@@janrobertbos It's obvious that you've never had an opposing (*ENEMY*) pilot try to kill you in 1944.
@@janrobertbosif that pilot lands in his own country he is still a combatant you could meet the next day.
@@xfirehurican that doesn't make him right.
@@bobsakamanos4469 Pls elaborate.
I think it would be very difficult for a fighter pilot, at combat speeds, to actually hit a parachutist.
I'm a pilot and a skydiver. I was never in the service but I don't think I would shoot at a parachute. Nor would obey that order.. nope.
Let's check it out, got the notice.
Now consider that the parachuting soldier might have a pistol that could easily bring your plane down.
The unnamed pilot of the 352nd Fighter Squadron is quoted as saying he merely used his gun cameras to film the downed enemy in his chute- could these cameras be operated without firing?
Yes. The P-51 could film without firing.
It is against the Geneva Convention to target a pilot descending under a parachute. It is legal to engage paratroopers as that is their method of delivery to the combat area.
Thanks - he literally said that in the video.
If the pilot is likely to parachute into enemy territory the odds of capture are high, thus his skills will be neutralized. No reason to kill a likely POW.
However if he will land in friendly territory then he will return to combat so fire away. The next enemy he kills might be you.
I'm 77 YO. My dad told me, back in the '50s, that Germans were shooting our parachuters in the air.
i didn't now taht you fight aganist Germans in the '50s.
@@Vladymir_Putinno.. What he said was his father told him the story in the 50s
Good video. You explained things very well with different ideas and concepts. The Japanese were brutal, that's why so few Japanese prisoners were taken.
Neither sides had clean hands
The war began, and the crime had already taken place.😥
I’d say it was ungentlemanly behaviour but not a war crime.
Soldiers would kill opponents retreating, for instance.
Your job is to kill the opponent, it’s his job to kill you after all.
Just because he’s had to bail out doesn’t make him any less an opponent.
But the same applies both ways, if a parachutist is a valid target then it is any parachutist.
Your as likely to be a target.
Indeed many parachutists were shot when they were invading counties, bailing out of passengers aircraft they became floating targets for opponents.
Many German parachutists died before touching the ground in WW2
It’s because of these high casualties rates that Hitler put a stop to invasion by air.
It seems that orders were given to shoot at pilots from ME 262 as training these pilots was quite unique. A logical decision. However, can't remember the source-maybe Toliver and Constable, HORRIDO?
As Dowding said if they over their home ground it was fair, as then they couldn’t come back in another aircraft and shoot you down, if however they were over your territory is was murder
You called it a dastardly act. I believe it more a cowardly act. Just my opinion.
Not unless they parachutee was unloading at you with their sidearm.
Good information.
@3:00 Ira Jones was friends with the British ace of aces, Edward "Mick" Mannock, who was a great patrol leader and utterly ruthless in the air. Mick had a deep hatred of the enemy --- it's said there were only two passions in his life: he hated Germans, and he loved to kill them.
The 'voice over' at 11± mins about 'The United Nations' can't possibly be accurate ... it was only formed after the end of WW11 as far as i can recall ...!?
Mir ist nicht bekannt,dass deutsche Piloten das gemacht haben .
I find it dispicable! But that's war.
First of all, it made no sense for a German pilot to shoot men in parachutes since at that phase of the war interceptions occurred over German territory. It was all just a tale to excuse allied pilots shooting Germans after they bailed out. Even before aircraft were written into international treaty, the assumption was that parachuting fliers should be treated like the crews of sinking ships and were not to be fired upon. I really don't buy the Polish account about an ME-110 pilot being so consumed with shooting him that he got himself shot down. If I were making this video, I'd try to find corroboration, especially given Dzwonek's role in propaganda under the post war Communist regime which made him a celebrity pilot. The Germans didn't bother him while he was recovering in hospital from burns to his face and both hands and later escaped from the hospital and lived under an assumed name. You only have his say so given at a time when he was part of a regime that told many exaggerations about the hated nazis to justify and excuse post war ethnic cleansing. This video is clearly a biased white washing that rather nakedly tries to excuse the killing of Germans in the Battle of Britain by Poles and Czechs as "returning the favor." "Returning the favor" for what, the one dubious incident listed? Besides the fact that the Germans never fought the Czechs in the air up to that time. Next you'll be quoting Richard Peterson's tired tale which his own squadron mates dismissed as complete rubbish (He wasn't well regarded and more than one man in his wing confronted him both during and after the war). This is a pretty sketchy effort to put the blame on the Germans. At this point I could not be bothered to watch further.
If a pilot lands on enemy soil, he’s out of the war. In his own territory, he’ll be back trying to kill you tomorrow. Why allow that?
Cuz they were pilots not infantry
the parachutists are armed with a pistol, so able to fight back
Against a plane, with a pistol. Are you serious
You are not serious are you Neil 🤣
Don't use the Parachute too early.........
Disrespect is how you think that as an American it is okay to make excuses for a nation that did this very commonly !
Get off your high horse.
Unfortunately, guerilla/non military combatants are not governed by the Geneva Convention. The Viet Cong were not restricted in their method of combat. U.S. troops were accused of war crimes while there was no such attempts to prosecute or charge them. A one way dirty war only helps one side. War in and of itself is a crime against humanity.
You might read about Captain William Calley Jr and the My Lai massacre.
As if fighter pilots in WW1 had parachutes......
They literally did. The final year German aviators had them in wide numbers.
Its a dirty tactic and unbecoming a pilot officer.I cant see Aces like Manfred von Richthofen AKA The Red Baron or Adolf Galland reduce themselves to such morally wrong activities.
The Japanese had no trouble shooting men as they fell. As they the Japanese thought it was cowards way out to bail from a fight. As well you should look into the practice of American sailors who gunned down any Japanese seamen
If an airman from a downed bomber bombing civilians (after all, they could put their hands up!) lands on the ground then those civilians can't kill him?
I wonder why then he could have killed their children a minute ago?
For consideration.
In total war all civility is lost.
Not exactly gentlemanly. Most movies and video games are very hush hush about this.
I'm making sure to click on all of the political ads I see attached to your videos, figure they can transfer some of that money to you.
Lol thanks
The U.S. withdrew from the Geneva Conventions in February 2002. We have not rejoined it. President Bush withdrew from the convention because it limits the ability to torture detainees and the methods that can be applied in interrogation. The president has the power to unilaterally remove the U.S. from a treaty, but the Senate must ratify a treaty by a vote of 2/3. No one has been able to get a majority of the Senate to vote for reratification.
Nope. What you are referring to is the American Service members Protection Act of 2002 which allowed the US to forcefully recover American citizens or citizens of nations allied to the US being held by the ICC. It also allowed the United States to use force against nations or groups committing ethnic cleansing, genocide or crimes against humanity. It was all done in the interest of National Security and was signed 7 months after the September 11th attacks
6:04 LMAO L for him ggs
The Geneva Conventions forbade the attacking of downed airmen in their parachutes. But it happened anyway.
Christian cultures have a moral and ethical prohibition on "Murder". "Thou shalt not Murder (kill)". Murder is usually defined as the killing of the innocent and the defenseless. Which is why the killing of babies is Always seen as murder no matter the justification of the act.
The killing of the unarmed (the defenseless) by the armed is also seen as murder. A pilot hanging under a parachute would fit the description of defenseless.
However, other cultures are not bound by Christian ethics. So it depends on who wins the war as to who gets to define what is Moral or Ethical or Criminal. ;)
not a crime.. war is war.. TOTAL WAR!
Innocent?
Alls fair in love and war!
Josef Zwernemann+++
Please is pronounced Luftvaffa !
Note that nobody mentions what the Commie swill did!
There is no fair play in war , not even in time of peace, life is an unfair bitch ! But yeah , it can be beautiful with a little bit of luck and a bit of fortune !
The Japanese surely Did!
👍
😁😁👍😎
Innocent Men?
Clickbait.
What's with the up & down tone or manner of speaking in the narration? You sound as though you're talking to a 3rd grade class.
A
I know this sounds horrid, but those pilots were not surrendering. They were abandoning their killing machines because of mechanical failure. These pilots (if left alone) would be back up in a new killing machine as soon as possible. Shooting men in parachutes or shooting men in life boats is (in my opinion) a war crime. I also believe war itself is a crime.