I actually feel like the "if you want them to stand still, give them something cool to cast" is huge, as someone who has mained fire mage at various points since BFA, the initial idea of hard casting pyroblast sounded godly awful, but then Sun Kings Blessing came in and I freaking love it when I have to hard cast them, especially if I also have my regular combust cause it feels like I'm building up the strongest sh*t ever. If they want warlocks to stand still more, give them a fun mechanic that rewards them for doing it.
What if they introduce ritual spells that require you to stand still and cast for a long period, but they allow you to cast other spells during the ritual cast time? Maybe only instant casts, maybe 1 or 2 specific spells? I feel like rituals fit the thematic of warlocks, and it could be neat mechanic that only they do.
The main issue is that they're just making it worse even from a design perspective, how do you balance a % based proc? It'd be a million times better if they slash it it half or just remove it, at least then I can understand like, ok they want us to cast shadowbolt more and that's fine they've even buffed shadowbolt to be cast faster, but these changed look spiteful in a way, it's like they're telling us, remeber when u used to have 2 cores when dogs expired? Yeah get f**&ing dunked on newb now you might or might not get them (getting 0 more often than not).
Nothing is gonna feel cool to cast when you have to stand around like a fool, in a game that asks you to move around non stop. This design worked before M+ and before encounters were being designed for hyperactive, mouth foaming zoomers.
@@omarcomming722 That's an... interesting thing to say while replying to an example of the complete opposite, as I said, Fire mages SKB forces you to hardcast pyroblasts which at various points has even been an almost 4 sec cast. It was implemented in Shadowlands, very well into the M+ era and so well received by the majority of fire mages that not only was it brought back in Dragonflight and kept as the default build for fire mages through the whole expansion, but even during Shadowlands it was retuned multiple times to keep it as the bis Fire Mage legendary, never had an issue in M+ nor Raids because of it. If you, as a caster which is primarily a _stand still to cast_ role, can't stay still for just 4 secs, that's just bad positioning, which is a you issue, it's not the "hyperactive, mouth foaming zoomers" fault that you have the reflexes and dexterity of a 90yo with arthritis.
@@capthooks8200 In theory, I love that idea, my one issue with it is that I feel like I might love that idea _because_ I've mained fire mage, since FM already sort of has that mechanic through Fire Blast being castable while casting other spells, I fear that reworking Locks to both incentivize hard casting a long spell here and there _and_ having castable spells while doing so might make them too close to Fire Mages and lose too much identity in the process. I recently read a couple of ideas that imo don't cause that issue but still might make it easier for Warlocks to hardcast a long spell: - One is having a talent to make Demonic Circle castable while casting other spells, so you can use it as an emergency movement that allows you to escape damage without having to cancel the cast. - The other idea is giving them a defensive that works similar to DKs Death's Advance, which makes you inmune to forced movement and knockbacks, also allowing you to hard cast without many worries of something cancelling it. Both options would probably need to be strongly balanced to not make it a complete cheat code, but I think they might work, although I've heard the recent reworks already did pretty well for the Warlocks, so maybe this isn't an issue anymore.
Builder Spender design sucks especially as a caster. If I have to stand there and channel a spell for 2+ seconds, I want that spell to matter. Builder Spender works for melee classes or hunters because they instant cast, but sitting there spamming frostbolts and shadowbolts to fish for procs so you can do actual damage feels bad even if on paper it might good, or even overpowered. This is doubly true for warlock as a class because warlock is inherently ramp based, i'd rather the damage come from stacking all my effects so my damage starts ramping up, rather than having to fish for soul shard procs to cast my real spells.
doesent realy work for MM hunter eaither, as your main time, is constantly hardcasting aimed shots, a long cast time hard rooted ability. MM probably is the 2. least mobile ranged, the other being Destro. That's how much of your dmg is tied to only aimed shot, and making sure you never cap charges
depends on the design though. Just look at Red Mage in FFXIV. It's basically a builder-spender but the building part is not braindead and the spender is a spectacle you look forward to. It _can_ be done, but WoW class design is a bit...lacking imho...
Devs that are saying, "WE want you to..." instead of "what do YOU want..." should be fired immediately. Devs make games for players to enjoy. We pay for it (one way or another) WE invest hours upon hours of time. Game develop should NEVER BE about how the Devs want people to play the game. If that's what they want out of their careers, they should write and direct movies. That way they can control all the aspects they are so desperate to.
Na, most players are not good at designing classes, so the devs need to be adamant about a cohesive direction and work in the context of the other classes and many more considerations.
@@tworadon thats what i hate about the gamers whining about this. if players were in charge we would just start with million% flying and all the raid gear. what's the game after all that
Class changes can absolutely make one lose interest, I genuinely haven't been anywhere near as engaged with WoW after Survival hunter was changed to melee in Legion. I kinda just fell off the game because my favorite spec just didn't exist anymore.
after MOP i cannot main any more my hunter. I like sv in retail like a melee hunter but the concept of ranged hunter changed so much that i dont feel that im playing the hunter that inspire me to play in the past... wow is a hard game to love. Blizzard remove everything is good for the game. For example i miss the pet talents trees and pets abilities.... why you going to remove that? it was so fun
I've always been a warrior main but my main alt was always my hunter, my RANGED SURVIVAL HUNTER. Since the rework in Legion I have barely touched my hunter aside from leveling to max in expansions, but I just cannot bother to do end-game content on it, I've tried but Marksman and BM just puts me to sleep, and melee survival just makes me think of what it once was and it just feels icky to play. A shame really. But atm I am playing Survival in Cata-pre patch and it's great, Cata and MoP survival is goated!
One of the worst feelings is having a class that feels perfect to play that the devs change and kill just for the sake of change. The issue is I can understand why it can happen since sometimes a change can take a great class and make it better, but on the other side it can very easily ruin the fun.
It's devs justifying their jobs literally, it happens with every single game, platform, and service that needs to employ devs full time. Most of the changes made are idiotic for anyone who's remotely engaged.
As someone who loves warlock, and who's favorite class is warlock, I've often thought that a big problem with the design of the warlock class is that... How to put this; Often one of the things that define a class and make it unique are what is lacks rather than what it has, the problem here is that the thing that blizzard wants warlock to be defined by the absence of, is often, all of the qualities that most players find enjoyable (mobility, reliable resources/procs, not having to spend half a minute prepping an area before a fight starts/after you get ressed, ect). If would probably be fine if it were one or two of those things, but for whatever reason they seem to have chosen all of them simultaneously for many people. Having said that I honestly wouldn't mind the dogs change for demo if, and only if, they came with the dogs having 100% uptime so there were more opportunities for them to proc cores, and if umbral blaze was changed from a 15% chance to proc a dot on hand of gul'dan to a 100% chance just so we pick up more consistency somewhere else. It's hilarious that it has ignites rolling functionality when the chance to proc it is so low.
i quit wow in legion when they made SV a melee spec if i wanted to play melee with a pet id play UH DK i want my SV back thats why im playin wrath and cata classic
I always find that the best designed Builder-Spender Mage class is the Red Mage from FFXIV. For those unfamiliar: you build resources via casting like a Fire Mage and then turn into an Enhancement Shaman to spend your resources in melee culminating in an explosion of extremely cool magical effects that easily align with Raid Buffs. It's technically the least mobile caster class in FFXIV because of how it functions (Black Mage has a ton of ways to proc instant casts which you can hold for upcoming movement at minimal DPS loss, and 90% oif Summoner's Rotation is instant cast) but the design is fun and cool enough it doesn't feel like a problem.
The only problem RDM has is that the gauge fills WAY too slowly. It takes like a solid 2 minutes of casting 5 different spells to fill it up, only for you to spend it in 20 seconds. It's kinda why I quit playing RDM.
Just make Cataclysm baseline, give us more room for better talents instead of gating what is essentially an immolate cleave on a 30 sec cooldown behind a vastly better option in 90% of scenarios and yeah, Since it feels like Blizzard keeps wanting to put warlock in a wheelchair, I am no longer playing that class, at least DK feels good for a slow class
Demo was perfect in Shadowlands. I don’t get why they changed it. They felt smooth and satisfying to play. DF added a bunch of extra abilities like soul strike and soul siphon, so it feels a bit bloated now. Now they’re removing the thing that made demo feel smooth to play by making Demonic Core charges ring. It makes no sense.
I feel all of Demo Warlocks problems of the past 3 years. Stems from Blizzard hating the fact that we would/could stack HP to buff our pets, which intern buffed our Tryant. The Shadowlands Special. Blizzard has done gymnastics to try and figure out how to get away from this, and ALL they have done to date is nerf and ruin the class over, and over, and over. To the point now days, we are so desperate for anything, that we look for anything to latch onto that could bring us some happiness for the spec. Season 3/4 tier bonus. Fine, great. But it forced us to go from Haste/Mastery, to haste/Vers stacking. The whole theme and mastery of the spec is put on the sideline, to buff a 4pc tier set. They nerfed our tyrant to the point when you summon it, it comes out in a skirt, and collar, and just cheers on your imps. Your Grimore Felguard is the one that wears the pants now, because the talents for the Tyrant are so fucking bad that you don't run them. Hence the spec name of "Naked Tyrant." Demon Portal? Theme overflowing cool down. Absolutely perfect for the spec, but because they don't want to put in the work so that the more shards you spend on a cast rather than how many you spend over the duration of the CD determines how many demons you spawn. They had to nerf that button into the ground. All they needed to do is say 1 shard=1 demon 2 shards = 2 demons, 3 shards equal's 3 demons spawned from Demon Portal. instead of us having to soul burn to spawn, then shadow bolt spend, SB-Spend, SB-spend like we were forced to do. When you summon felguard (Grimiore) it should spawn 3 demons, dogs = 2demons. Hand of Guldan should spawn 3 demons from the portal. So that while Demon Portal is active, you are rewarded for spending more shards at a cast, instead of of more shards over the duration of the buff. Hell, set a limit to the amount of Demons spawned, and if you reach that number before the buff is over, you insta spawn the Pitlord, and any duration of the buff left is turned into Cool Down reduction for the DP Cooldown. The limit would cut down on the visual/FPS clutter and reduction, and it would reward optimized game play. Meanwhile, even you don't hit the cap early, your are still rewarded with the use of that button as you still spawning demons until the Pitlord comes. They want to bring back our CD demons as a "big moment." That means your going to have to buff them significantly. Right now Infernal, Tyrant, and Observer are garbage. Absolute grade AAA garbage buttons to press on their own. Infernal is nothing but shard gen, Observer is nothing but a dot extension, and Tyrant is just a sub/cheerleader. Especially the Tyrant. right now when you summon Tyrant, you hand them a piece of armor and say "clean this." (fallout tv reference there) because that is all its good for. They want to turn us into turrets, fine, but our damage need to reflect it, it does not. Nothing like watching RWF, seeing the absolute best players in the world going absolute ham, doing mechanics with pixel perfection, and if they are lucky maybe they are top ten.. And frankly this could go towards any caster really. Since Vault, you haven't see casters carrying a raid. Yeah I know there is the legendary, but that is a topic all on to its on. All the classes that use it, don't feel complete until they have it. Casters, Devastations aside, don't have a legendary, and all the staves, and trinkets in the world haven't made up that gap.
i've mained demo since early wrath. the legion changes from using meta to being a summoner spec almost made me quit. if it werent for the artifacts i'd probably have switched to main destro amd never looked back. legion demo was rough.. but they fleshed it out in bfa and its felt pretty good ever sense. them wanting to nerf demon core generation and pushing us towatds using doom sounds horrible. doom shouldnt be on demo, or at least not as an active ability. its not fun.. has never really been. and i think it'd take too much work to make it fun enough. its an ability a whole spec could be built around trying to cram it into demo is not the way to go about it. demon cores, however, are perfectly fine as they are. they absolutely do not proc too often. they proc just enough to keep a good stream of hand of guldan flowing allowing for a good supply of imps so implosion is actually worth using. its a solid and fun rotation. and the netherportal is a perfect addition to that rotation. it adds extra burst without changing too much. honestly, imo the change that needs to occure is to demonic tyrant. its just a cd you throw out during nether portal to capitalize on the amount of demons so its cd being half of portal's is just going to throw times off if you use it slightly too late between portal summons. imo they need to get rid of tyrant all together and give us back our metamorph (rename). have it function on demonic power so its not a hard cd but a more fluid one you can use it when needed without fear of ruining your big burst moment. have it change a few spells like it use to but most importantly have it boost your demons damage output. ------------- with all that said, i do also frequently use destro and have a good understanding of how it works.. almost as much as demo. honestly, im not a big fan of decimating bolt but i am perfectly fine with avatar being removed. like, it was cool and all but it wasnt really engaging to use. its entirely passive. imo, instead of decimating bolt they could lean into the infernal (and also a few other spells) in a different and more engaging way. let the charges still build up they do for avatar but instead of just spawning a blue infernal after it maxes out let it change a few spells to give an additional effect (using any of the abilities will spend the charge, resetting them). spells i'd change/augment with the charge: rain of fire change to rain of chaos (summons 3-5 infernals), chaos bolt change to fan of destruction (fires small chaos bolts at 5 enemies within 20 ft of the target, each dealing 75% of the normal chaos bolt damage), incinerate change to burning tsunami (sends a wave of felfire forward, burning all enemies cought within. basically the same targeting range as the evoker's deep breath, just without the character movement), and finally i'd change the curses to all be bane of demise (apply curse of weakness, curse of tongues, curse of exhaustion, and doom to all enemies within an area. the area would be the same size as rain of fire)
I havent gotten to play it personally because i dont have alpha but from watching kalamazi test demo on alpha it really doesnt seem as bad as this implies. youre getting extra cores from hero talents and while you do have less cores its not a huge amount less. i agree that line does look really bad on its own but in context its pretty alright it appears
If one spec feels a lot better than the other 2, the solution isnt make the one spec worse, its make the other 2 more fun. Both Destru and affliction are extremely boring to play
Shadow Priest being changed from shadow orbs to the insanity gauge just really tainted my love for SP. It was really cool to have those floating orbs of shadow around you or the shadow ravens that actually were functional too by making your Mind Blast and Devouring Plague hit like trucks.
This is one of the things that drove me away from WoW. Not Spriests specifically, I didn't really play them. But losing cool things. As a Mage / Hunter / Tankadin player for 15 years... Fire mage got a (worse) version of fire orbs, similar to Shadow Orbs for priests in concept, then lost them. And most importantly *Frostfire Bolt* which even when brought back next expansion does not have the gorgeous spell visual. We also had great Spells like Flame Orb that were taken away, Cinderstorm was a neat concept but taken away. Phoenix Flames was made into a talent too weak to be used for an entire expansion or longer. They took away Hunters' Eyes of the Beasts for years and years. They took away multiple lovely spell visuals we got with MM artifacts. Disc Priest? They lost Cascade, Prayer of Mending, the Angel wings, their amazing Artifact ability, Starshards from Vanilla... If I have cool things I *hate* losing them and it, along with bad systems designs, increased prices and Blizzard's controversies are why I stopped playing after 15 years. But genuinely.. the main thing was losing the cool spells / animations.
all they would have to do is make it a talent choice. I wish they would make many things a choice. I prefer the way shadow plays now, but you shouldn't be screwed because you don't. reminds me of WoD when shadow priest were direct damage with mind spike.
They could have a talent in their standard talent or hero tree for shadow or chaos bolt thusly ..... *"Your summoned minion now casts Chaos/Shadow bolt for 200% of the damage you dealt"* every 5 seconds.
I play Demo casually as an alt, but I think that Demo's issue has a bit more nuance. Essentially, Demonbolt is designed to be uncastable without Demon Core. You need that proc to generate Soul Shards at a pace that "feels good." When you don't have Demon Core, you're left casting Shadow Bolt, which is better damage-to-APM then Demonbolt without Demon Core, but it always feels objectively bad to cast because Shadowbolt creates 1 Soul Shard where Demonbolt creates two. Now, you can't just "buff" Demonbolt because if you make it good enough that you can sit and hard cast it without Shadowbolt, then no one will cast Shadowbolt (Blizzard clearly wants Demo casting Shadowbolt for some reason). But by nerfing Demonbolt so Demonology has less mobility, they're also dramatically nerfing Soul Shard generation. In my opinion, the best option would be a dramatic alteration to Demonic Core, as such: remove Demonbolt as an active ability. When you gain Demon Core, it transforms Shadowbolt into Demonbolt, which increases its damage and causes it to generate an additional soul shard while still using the base Shadowbolt cast time. Imps still have a chance to give Demonic Core when they fade or are Imploded, Dreadstalkers still have a 100% chance. Then Power Siphon grants Improved Demonic Core instead of a standard Demonic Core, and Improved Demonic Core transforms Shadowbolt AND makes it instant cast. That change would nerf Demo's mobility while also making Demo's mobility completely in the hands of the player, and it keeps the better play-feel of having Demonic Cores with additional soul shard generation.
The big issue is we have potentially 3 ways to gain demonic core and so are dreadstalkers which currently 100% to get 1 which is basically a baseline spell (its the very starting talent of the tree) then you have a 10% every time an imp dies to get 1 core and no this doesn't stack for any bad luck protection each imp is a separate 10% dice roll for a core and lastly you have the talent Power Siphon which kills 2 imps for 2 SS and has a 30 cd. So by massively nerfing that dreadstalker 1 down to a 35% chance it will slow the gameplay down a lot of make Power siphon and even more mandatory talent to take then it already is as it will be the only 100% to get some cores because those imp ones you can definitely have bad times were they just give none for ages. Its just that really simple loop of SS to demons and people enjoy it being faster then slower. Honestly they could remove demonbolt and cores and just have the demons refund SS directly for the same basic effect and most lock players would probably be just as fine as long as that rate of shard generation wasn't messed with which is what they are doing.
if the class change would have fit in the game ten years ago but doesn't fit now, it could be that the game is wrong not necessarily the class change, i want them to slow the combat down and play more methodically.
If they want them to stand still, actually use the cool evoker mechanic where you get more stuff for charging the spell longer. That way you can move if you need to or charge it for a big hit.
As a frost mage main, glacial spike in its current iteration freaking SUCKS as a rotational spell. It completely throws off the flow of the spec. The only fun thing about it is seeing the big crit. I play with an addon that basically hides the damage values by shrinking them and moving them to the side of the ui and once you remove that dopamine from seeing big number you realize that the spell is absolute garbage to play with.
I used to main affliction in Legion but quit when they demonstrated they didn't know what they were doing with it. Which was when they moved from soul drain being the filler to shadow bolt. You know... The really cool thing where in pvp you can extend your dots and overall you can just become really tanky by also healing. And then they switched it to damn shadow bolt. Shadow bolt. One of the most bland and boring spells in the game to the point where this spell exists on multiple character classes, just recolored. The problem with affliction was not the filler being "boring" it was that resource generation was tied to an rng system that wasn't even related to your filler. You just waited for random procs from your dots to get soul shards. The fix was not to move away from soul drain, it was to make resource generation more consistent and less rng based. But no they just moved to a more boring filler. Yea guys its so much more interesting to hammer shadow bolt every 1.5 seconds than just hitting a draining spell. So much difference there wow. Definetly worth getting rid of the more interesting spell
Destruction shouldn't be a minion class. It should still use demons to empower itself but not use any visible minion at all that would help with DPS or whatever. It always felt like a Fire Mage with a minion and leeching and curses instead of burns, but that's just my opinion and I think Destruction could be better but without overpowering the other 2 trees so that Warlocks doesn't end forced to become Destruction on each raid (but hey, maybe the other 2 trees are more for casual play).
Played from vanilla beta to warlords. The main reason I quit is because I was a fury warrior main with a side of prot and not only was warlords lame but they completely ruined how amazing warrior was in mop. That made me quit after so many years. Did finally return at the end of bfa, but I now just skip the season if they make my class bad, and I have no alts I want to play.
All the issues the devs and the playerbase have with Warlock can easily be solved by reducing the specs to their most base fantasy. Demonology summons lotsa goons to shank their enemy, Destro builds a nuke and then launches it at whatever's in front of them, Affliction makes their target slowly melt. Demonology needs Demonic Core as a mobility and resource generation tool but overall it's just a means to an end: more Soul Shards with which to summon more demons. Demonic Core-ed Demonbolts are a crutch Demonology leans on to fix their mobility and resource generation issues. If you keep Demonbolt's 2 Shard generation but swap its damage and its cast time with Shadowbolt while also making Demonic Core buff Shadowbolt instead, all of a sudden Demonic Core-ed Shadowbolt is a mobility only spell because it allows for less Soul Shard generation which results in less demons per second than if you just stood still and casted Demonbolt. Destruction is and has always been centered around Chaos Bolt / Rain of Fire spam, everything in their kit has always allowed for just more of that, but in the last 2 expansions they've been moving away from that. I personally don't think Destruction needs to be more complex than just those 2 buttons. We don't need Channel Demonfire as an extra damage option, we don't need Decimating Bolt to buff Incinerate damage, we don't need Shadowburn or Dimensional Rift. What Destro needs is more enriched Uranium for their nukes. What if Channel Demonfire generated more resources? What if Soul Fire made the next Chaos Bolt do double damage? What if Decimating Bolt buffed Incinerate's resource generation? All that would result in more more powerful Chaos Bolts, and more Rain of Fire, which is exactly what Destro needs. Affliction is my baby. At the same time Malefic Rapture is some WoW dev's baby. These 2 things cannot coexist. In my eyes, Affliction is about DoTs. In this dev's eyes, Affliction is all about Malefic Rapture, the DoT's are just there to make MR do more damage. These philosophies are diametrically opposed and I think mine is the one most liked among the general playerbase. We need MR to be removed and for Unstable Affliction to return as the default Shard spender. UA should buff our DoTs per application so we can go back to having Agony be our #1 damage dealing spell. Almost everything else about Affliction's gameplay is fun and makes sense. Also the talent tree needs to be entirely reworked. The way the tree is laid out means it's aids to traverse and to grab different bits of it for certain situations, the nodes themselves are boring % damage increases that change nothing about gameplay, and they lack flavor. How you fix those issues, I don't know, but I do know they need to be fixed.
When you have 4 or more imps(max of 8) up when you hard cast demon old all of your imps cast demon bolt as well. Reduce the overall damage of instant cast demonbolt by 20% Anything is better than what they just did...
With the Destro Infernal / Avatar of Destruction change... I don't see the downside overall. You still get an infernal as part of your kit, now you just have it slightly less often. To be honest as Destruction it's nice to have but I don't feel like Demons are a core part of their identity. Adding in another big fancy spell to cast to spice up the rotation a bit does feel more like Destruction Warlock and would be more satisfying to me.
I just want demonology to have one powerful unique demon. Every single pet class is just how many minions can I summon that only last maybe 10 seconds. There is 0 variety.
This whole new "Powerful Moment" crap they've been spitting out recently. Needs to be spit out into a trash can. Every time I heard/saw Blizzard say those two words together. It was immediately followed by something negative. I dont want a "Powerful Moment" or a "Moment" Instant Demon Bolts are not "Moments" they are a core part of my rotation, that also happens to allow me a degree of movement while I instant-cast them! The only time you ever might consider casting a non Demonic Core'd Demonbolt is before you pull something, and keyword is Consider. Because depending on your build and opener, you might have other shit to do. And even then. Most of the time, I Power Siphon anyway! Unless It's a less than 20 seconds break between two packs in which case I probably still had my dogs up so I didnt need to Power Siphon cause I still had Cores.
"Moments" _are_ part of your rotation, that's the point. They're trying to make parts of the rotation feel cool instead of it all being kind of homogeneous mess. There are lots of specs that work well off "powerful moments". I would point to frost mage, with glacial spike and the coldest snap aoe combo.
@@Junebug89 main problem, is that for "moments" to feel good, you still need to have a baseline that feels good. For lock, without demon cores, their baseline is shit to play
@@Junebug89 Man. I just said "Instant Demonbolts are not "Moments" they are a core part of my rotation". And the first thing youre telling ME is "Moments" are part of your rotation... And "good" job on Blizzard making "parts of the rotation feel cool" by making it feel like utter shit. Or trying to anyway. The actual so called Moment the Demo rotation has, is the part when you've cycled through your first pair of Dogs and set up to pop out everyone, and I mean everyone! Your Demon pet that is always there a pack of a dozen to two dozen Imps, Grimoire FG, the Vile Fiend AND Your Tyrant that buffs all of them. Including two pairs of Dogs at once! You know Summoning a Small Army of Demons? The whole thing that the Spec Fantasy is predicated on ever since it was remade in Legion? Because Demon Hunter were being introduced and taking Away Demo's "Meta-moment-osis". Now THAT is a fucking Moment! But they are bound to keep nerfing the shit out of our ability to summon such a veritable trove of demons because it relies on being able to pump up Soul-shards quickly with Instant Casts of Demonbolt. Before dumping them on all those Summon abilities. Not to mention the whole thing about being able to dodge certain mechanics properly, though for me it was always a just a nice bonus. You point out Frost Mage. Well how would you like it if they introduced Rune of Power back, and removed Ice Floes? This is, in essence what is being done to Demo. Instead of buffing the other two specs ability to move around in some way. Because "hurr durr unfair". They nerf the one Spec on the Class that is actually decent at movement. All the while justifying themselves as trying to "make Powerful Moments" all the while inadvertently inching closer and closer towards ruining the most important "Moment" of the entire specialization! All of that being said. At the end of the day. Even if I am wrong about everything. Which I highly doubt I am. It boils down to us needing to kick up as big of a stink as possible about changes like this, to have even the tiniest of chances that Nothing Worse comes to pass.
at this point everything is such a mess we need a getting back to basics expansion every class set back to there original image the lines are geting way to blurred between what each class gives or just what it is ............
im of the mind that kalamazi had, leave avatar in but it is a choice between that or rain of chaos with infernal being a 2 min cd, then swap rain of fire with cataclysm so we have a nice aoe application of immolation (or what is going to be wither which will be gcd hit to cast manually). demonology the generation of cores is indeed insane once the buildup is in place but that does take a while and it being an instant cast does help with m+ or moving to avoid abilities generally. Personally im going to be glad as a destruction main warlock to see the death (hopefully) of the one button rain of fire spam build. Also as another note when the blasphemy was added as a tier set bonus it counted as an infernal which at the time meant taking reign of chaos talent / skill in SL meant when the blasphemy dropped every 12 shards it also dropped extra infernals. as such the skill or talent was redesigned so that it wouldnt interact with that ability and the reign of chaos talent was also nerfed to 15% per shard instead of the 20% it was at the time. Chaos bolt is baseline for warlock??? that makes absolutely no sense when affliction will have no use for it nor demon when its a choice between that and hand of guldan, i may be reading / hearing that wrong
Unholy DK is sucha clusterfuck of Bullshit. Festering Wounds is just Cancer, and idc if anyone says otherwise. It's such ANTI FUN Builder Spender bullshit. I am kinda fine with Build/Spend, because i love to play Rogue ( and thats the only Class i really dig the whole Build/Spend ) but its SO FUCKING STUPID ON UHDK.
Making you stand still more often in a game where theres more and more random swirlies everyfuckingwhere in regards to fight mechanics is just frustrating your players for the sake of it, period.
Wounds is great, in scenarios where your pulls are large enough to take advantage of the quadratic scaling. Having both wounds AND the increased disease damage in current BETA feels amazing, but may make UH a bit too powerful in aoe.
I feel like Unholy needs a rework, as Matt stated Wounds have not been important since Legion, outside of holding 4 for Apocalypse you just don't care about them. I get so much RP that I'm almost never using Scourgestrike to burst the wounds. Always, Festering Strike, Death Coil or Epidemic and then Apocalypse off CD. You only use Scourgestrike in the spots you dont have RP which Im not sure why I had so much but I do, but you dont use it much as you're trying to make sure you have enough wounds for Apocalypse
I’ve always had something to enjoy playing with wow, but character redesigns are why I don’t play league anymore, none of my favorite champions exist anymore.
So they've effectively killed Demo warlocks? Fewer cores means less casts of the spells that use them. Which means less casts of Hand of Guldan, which means less imps, which means less random cores from imp expirations. Demo is the most fun spec because one you get rolling it's fast paced and rewards timing. If they are unhappy with the number of Demo spec vs the other two, make the other two better.
I might be wrong, but didn’t Kalamazi say that after playing it, it didn’t feel as bad as he thought it would? I’m no Demo player, but I feel like a lot of the people complaining haven’t played with the changes. Kinda like how people were with Lightsmith?
If Blizz wants me to stand still, they should make fights that let me stand still. Demonology is fun. I like Demonic Core as is. I'm just so over this design philosophy of "oh, your class is fun? We think it needs more friction, because... reasons."
imo, Rogue needs changes as well, specifically outlaw. It has by far the worst button bloat in the game as well as requiring the same input speed as a korean SC2 tournament, and its so bad to level because you get no return on your input till 60-70 at the minimum. Rogue also has 2 specs in a constant fight for the same power fantasy with ass and sub, those should really be rolled into one and have the other become a cqb ranged spec like forsaken sylavnas (MM hunter being ranger gen sylv)
One easy fix is to make roll the bones a passive. Just make it so that casting an ability like finishers or any other combat related ability triggers roll the bones. One another issue WAS that Outlaw didn't have an ability that really brought the pain in a burst. key word being WAS since TWW makes killing spree a LOT more viable. Oh and I am in favor of Shadow Dance going away from the Main talent tree. Why? Because it's supposed to be part of the SUB identity!
I don't understand why they have cool abilities like soul fire, then don't even have a choice node in the hero trees to buff it. Like, I *like* being a turret, but it needs to feel like when I do it I hit like a truck. So give me things that make me hit like a truck.
you know what I dont get when it comes to those drastic class change? it force a single meta, wich is something blizz have tried to eradicate for years, only to end up causing it to spread more widely than ever due to stupid decision..
Everything in retail is a builder spender, so I play a Monk and embrace it. I love Warlock in classic, but Warlock in retail is gross. Frost Mage too, why they all rogues?
people are ignoring the biggest issue; warlocks are no longer a pet class, its either the mandatory guard that chokes up half the talent tree in demo or sac, and demo doesnt even get sac!. bring back the pet portion of the class asthetic
not really its how the rotation plays when u have a load of cores verse when u don't. If i have say 3 i can cast it twice be at 4 soulshards press say hand of gul'dan its max worth of 3 SS and then spam it again and cast another max cast HoG, and thats not even taking into account other possible spenders that might be on cd like dreadstalkers, vilefiend, or grimoire felguard. its really simple more cores = more SS which = more demon summoning. less core means less demon summoning While if i have no cores i have to realistically cast shadow bolt 6 times to do the exact same thing which is far far slower. In theory i could hard cast demonbolt but with how encounters are designed in wow today that really isn't an option and when shadowbolts cast is 1.5s and demonbolts hard cast is 3.3 (casting for both is taken from my lock in game right now) its faster to cast shadow bollt twice for 2 SS then demonbolt once plus if im forced to move during the 2nd shadow bolt i still have the first one i generated while I wouldn't generate any SS from that hard cast of demonbolt. This is the dirty secret of demonbolt it isn't really designed to be hard cast its meant to be instant cast with cores they could make it an ability that u can only cast when you have cores and it wouldn't effect 99% of times it is cast. sure you might hard cast it at the start of a pull but beyond that its only pressed during a fight when you have cores. The big issue is we have potentially 3 ways to gain demonic core there is the dreadstalkers 100% one which is basically a baseline spell (its the very starting talent of the tree) then you have a 10% every time an imp dies to get 1 core and no this doesn't stack for any bad luck protection each imp is a separate 10% dice roll for a core and lastly you have the talent Power Siphon which kills two imps for 2 SS and has a 30 cd. Its just that really simple loop of SS to demons and people enjoy it being faster then slower. Honestly they could remove demonbolt and cores and just have the demons refund SS directly for the same basic effect and most lock players would probably be just as fine as long as that rate of shard generation wasn't messed with which is what they are doing.
Warlock more than any other class tend to be weathervanes for bullshit. Not going to lie, this is the first expansion I've planned to skip from the start. Doesn't feel good, but things like this make me feel vindicated.
I wonder how likely it is that this channel will talk about ff14 again. I really only subbed during the wow exodus cause there was a lot of ff14 praise and content but I don't really care about wow at all
My Marksman Hunter died with BFA pre-patch I absolutely hate what they have done to Hunter they seem to take more damage than any other class I play and I miss my WOD/Legion Marksman Hunter so much
Heavily disagree. They fixed MM hunter in BFA. Legion is the only expansion I didn't play my MM Hunter (and he has been my main since Cata). Now TWW is repeating the same mistake as Legion, so I am already thinking of playing another class.
the answer seems obvious to me. just give aff and destro similar mobility. i dont think anyone thinks demo or warlocks in general are super mobile or anything so i fail to see how it would be a bad thing
Warlock has always been rather immobile, that is why it has so many defences. If you remove it's defences and make it more mobile it becomes more like other casters. Homogeneous game design is what makes classes boring.
@@robertfarrow3218 I'm not advocating for warlocks to get a dash or anything like that. It really wouldn't be the end of the world for aff and destro to have more instant cast options so it doesn't suck to move during a fight
This problem sort of translated to the new fire mage - ie It's going to be really fun, but is probably bad game design (casters are supposed to stand still and CAST) and will get changed in the future and then we'll be right here talking about how Bliz has ruined a spec and made it less fun.
You wanna talk about 3 minute cooldowns.....Ascendance bro. The most dead fucking cooldown in the game that continues to exist. And they REFUSE to redesign it. It brings 0 value to Ele and limited value to Enh. It'll be a huge spit in the face if they don't fix it going in to WWI, as it is every other expansion that they ignore it.
problem is their design intent is shit since the post mop prune, rip warlocks, bring back xelnath, this is boring e-sport design bullshit, what happened to the rpg and fun of playing?
I’ the same with the Druid healing and Treeform. Itsead of taking the treeform and removing it completely and using it as a buff. Treeform had the ability to heal and move because of your HoTs would have been fun to try seeing it if it could root itself and everyone in a e0 yard raidius and heals everyone with the AOE hot that swiftmend and everyone in the radius healing everyone in a radius. Giving everyone a bark skin and a 15% healing extra healing of 15% healing bonus to i|. Gives everyone nn
Change the design goal, because standing still and casting feels shit, has always felt shit, and will always feel shit. Stop making specs feel more shit, and make them feel less shit. There is a reason why people magnet toward mobile ranged DPS specs at all times. Every time you make a spec immobile you relegate it back to the "this only gets played if it's overpowered" status, because people don't play immobile specs for fun.
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I actually feel like the "if you want them to stand still, give them something cool to cast" is huge, as someone who has mained fire mage at various points since BFA, the initial idea of hard casting pyroblast sounded godly awful, but then Sun Kings Blessing came in and I freaking love it when I have to hard cast them, especially if I also have my regular combust cause it feels like I'm building up the strongest sh*t ever.
If they want warlocks to stand still more, give them a fun mechanic that rewards them for doing it.
What if they introduce ritual spells that require you to stand still and cast for a long period, but they allow you to cast other spells during the ritual cast time? Maybe only instant casts, maybe 1 or 2 specific spells? I feel like rituals fit the thematic of warlocks, and it could be neat mechanic that only they do.
The main issue is that they're just making it worse even from a design perspective, how do you balance a % based proc? It'd be a million times better if they slash it it half or just remove it, at least then I can understand like, ok they want us to cast shadowbolt more and that's fine they've even buffed shadowbolt to be cast faster, but these changed look spiteful in a way, it's like they're telling us, remeber when u used to have 2 cores when dogs expired? Yeah get f**&ing dunked on newb now you might or might not get them (getting 0 more often than not).
Nothing is gonna feel cool to cast when you have to stand around like a fool, in a game that asks you to move around non stop. This design worked before M+ and before encounters were being designed for hyperactive, mouth foaming zoomers.
@@omarcomming722 That's an... interesting thing to say while replying to an example of the complete opposite, as I said, Fire mages SKB forces you to hardcast pyroblasts which at various points has even been an almost 4 sec cast. It was implemented in Shadowlands, very well into the M+ era and so well received by the majority of fire mages that not only was it brought back in Dragonflight and kept as the default build for fire mages through the whole expansion, but even during Shadowlands it was retuned multiple times to keep it as the bis Fire Mage legendary, never had an issue in M+ nor Raids because of it.
If you, as a caster which is primarily a _stand still to cast_ role, can't stay still for just 4 secs, that's just bad positioning, which is a you issue, it's not the "hyperactive, mouth foaming zoomers" fault that you have the reflexes and dexterity of a 90yo with arthritis.
@@capthooks8200 In theory, I love that idea, my one issue with it is that I feel like I might love that idea _because_ I've mained fire mage, since FM already sort of has that mechanic through Fire Blast being castable while casting other spells, I fear that reworking Locks to both incentivize hard casting a long spell here and there _and_ having castable spells while doing so might make them too close to Fire Mages and lose too much identity in the process. I recently read a couple of ideas that imo don't cause that issue but still might make it easier for Warlocks to hardcast a long spell:
- One is having a talent to make Demonic Circle castable while casting other spells, so you can use it as an emergency movement that allows you to escape damage without having to cancel the cast.
- The other idea is giving them a defensive that works similar to DKs Death's Advance, which makes you inmune to forced movement and knockbacks, also allowing you to hard cast without many worries of something cancelling it.
Both options would probably need to be strongly balanced to not make it a complete cheat code, but I think they might work, although I've heard the recent reworks already did pretty well for the Warlocks, so maybe this isn't an issue anymore.
Builder Spender design sucks especially as a caster.
If I have to stand there and channel a spell for 2+ seconds, I want that spell to matter. Builder Spender works for melee classes or hunters because they instant cast, but sitting there spamming frostbolts and shadowbolts to fish for procs so you can do actual damage feels bad even if on paper it might good, or even overpowered.
This is doubly true for warlock as a class because warlock is inherently ramp based, i'd rather the damage come from stacking all my effects so my damage starts ramping up, rather than having to fish for soul shard procs to cast my real spells.
doesent realy work for MM hunter eaither, as your main time, is constantly hardcasting aimed shots, a long cast time hard rooted ability. MM probably is the 2. least mobile ranged, the other being Destro. That's how much of your dmg is tied to only aimed shot, and making sure you never cap charges
@@gampie13 yh I think MM hunters thrive more on battlegrounds due to the chaos making it easier to just snipe from a distance.
depends on the design though. Just look at Red Mage in FFXIV. It's basically a builder-spender but the building part is not braindead and the spender is a spectacle you look forward to. It _can_ be done, but WoW class design is a bit...lacking imho...
Devs that are saying, "WE want you to..." instead of "what do YOU want..." should be fired immediately. Devs make games for players to enjoy. We pay for it (one way or another) WE invest hours upon hours of time. Game develop should NEVER BE about how the Devs want people to play the game. If that's what they want out of their careers, they should write and direct movies. That way they can control all the aspects they are so desperate to.
Na, most players are not good at designing classes, so the devs need to be adamant about a cohesive direction and work in the context of the other classes and many more considerations.
@@tworadon thats what i hate about the gamers whining about this. if players were in charge we would just start with million% flying and all the raid gear. what's the game after all that
Class changes can absolutely make one lose interest, I genuinely haven't been anywhere near as engaged with WoW after Survival hunter was changed to melee in Legion. I kinda just fell off the game because my favorite spec just didn't exist anymore.
after MOP i cannot main any more my hunter. I like sv in retail like a melee hunter but the concept of ranged hunter changed so much that i dont feel that im playing the hunter that inspire me to play in the past... wow is a hard game to love. Blizzard remove everything is good for the game. For example i miss the pet talents trees and pets abilities.... why you going to remove that? it was so fun
God, I miss MoP Survival Hunter. I hoped Dark Ranger Hero Spec would be like that, but it is decidedly not.
I've always been a warrior main but my main alt was always my hunter, my RANGED SURVIVAL HUNTER. Since the rework in Legion I have barely touched my hunter aside from leveling to max in expansions, but I just cannot bother to do end-game content on it, I've tried but Marksman and BM just puts me to sleep, and melee survival just makes me think of what it once was and it just feels icky to play. A shame really. But atm I am playing Survival in Cata-pre patch and it's great, Cata and MoP survival is goated!
@@Grisak_ yea, wotlk cata and mop have the best version of hunter!
Melee survival is amazing. It's a very cool themed class fantasy.
My love for Paladins never recovered after the Cata reworks.
Classic player here, glad to see blizzard hates all warlocks equally
One of the worst feelings is having a class that feels perfect to play that the devs change and kill just for the sake of change. The issue is I can understand why it can happen since sometimes a change can take a great class and make it better, but on the other side it can very easily ruin the fun.
Prot Warrior Rage Gen changes did that to me and encouraged me to pick up Demon Hunter in Legion.
Demo was far from perfect, it was simple a external multiplier...
It's devs justifying their jobs literally, it happens with every single game, platform, and service that needs to employ devs full time. Most of the changes made are idiotic for anyone who's remotely engaged.
I had forgotten that the creator of Ethyrium was, as Dan Olson put it, a butthurt Warlock main.
As someone who loves warlock, and who's favorite class is warlock, I've often thought that a big problem with the design of the warlock class is that... How to put this; Often one of the things that define a class and make it unique are what is lacks rather than what it has, the problem here is that the thing that blizzard wants warlock to be defined by the absence of, is often, all of the qualities that most players find enjoyable (mobility, reliable resources/procs, not having to spend half a minute prepping an area before a fight starts/after you get ressed, ect). If would probably be fine if it were one or two of those things, but for whatever reason they seem to have chosen all of them simultaneously for many people.
Having said that I honestly wouldn't mind the dogs change for demo if, and only if, they came with the dogs having 100% uptime so there were more opportunities for them to proc cores, and if umbral blaze was changed from a 15% chance to proc a dot on hand of gul'dan to a 100% chance just so we pick up more consistency somewhere else. It's hilarious that it has ignites rolling functionality when the chance to proc it is so low.
i quit wow in legion when they made SV a melee spec if i wanted to play melee with a pet id play UH DK i want my SV back thats why im playin wrath and cata classic
I always find that the best designed Builder-Spender Mage class is the Red Mage from FFXIV.
For those unfamiliar: you build resources via casting like a Fire Mage and then turn into an Enhancement Shaman to spend your resources in melee culminating in an explosion of extremely cool magical effects that easily align with Raid Buffs.
It's technically the least mobile caster class in FFXIV because of how it functions (Black Mage has a ton of ways to proc instant casts which you can hold for upcoming movement at minimal DPS loss, and 90% oif Summoner's Rotation is instant cast) but the design is fun and cool enough it doesn't feel like a problem.
The only problem RDM has is that the gauge fills WAY too slowly. It takes like a solid 2 minutes of casting 5 different spells to fill it up, only for you to spend it in 20 seconds. It's kinda why I quit playing RDM.
Just make Cataclysm baseline, give us more room for better talents instead of gating what is essentially an immolate cleave on a 30 sec cooldown behind a vastly better option in 90% of scenarios
and yeah, Since it feels like Blizzard keeps wanting to put warlock in a wheelchair, I am no longer playing that class, at least DK feels good for a slow class
Demo was perfect in Shadowlands. I don’t get why they changed it. They felt smooth and satisfying to play.
DF added a bunch of extra abilities like soul strike and soul siphon, so it feels a bit bloated now. Now they’re removing the thing that made demo feel smooth to play by making Demonic Core charges ring. It makes no sense.
I feel all of Demo Warlocks problems of the past 3 years. Stems from Blizzard hating the fact that we would/could stack HP to buff our pets, which intern buffed our Tryant. The Shadowlands Special. Blizzard has done gymnastics to try and figure out how to get away from this, and ALL they have done to date is nerf and ruin the class over, and over, and over. To the point now days, we are so desperate for anything, that we look for anything to latch onto that could bring us some happiness for the spec. Season 3/4 tier bonus. Fine, great. But it forced us to go from Haste/Mastery, to haste/Vers stacking. The whole theme and mastery of the spec is put on the sideline, to buff a 4pc tier set.
They nerfed our tyrant to the point when you summon it, it comes out in a skirt, and collar, and just cheers on your imps. Your Grimore Felguard is the one that wears the pants now, because the talents for the Tyrant are so fucking bad that you don't run them. Hence the spec name of "Naked Tyrant." Demon Portal? Theme overflowing cool down. Absolutely perfect for the spec, but because they don't want to put in the work so that the more shards you spend on a cast rather than how many you spend over the duration of the CD determines how many demons you spawn. They had to nerf that button into the ground. All they needed to do is say 1 shard=1 demon 2 shards = 2 demons, 3 shards equal's 3 demons spawned from Demon Portal. instead of us having to soul burn to spawn, then shadow bolt spend, SB-Spend, SB-spend like we were forced to do. When you summon felguard (Grimiore) it should spawn 3 demons, dogs = 2demons. Hand of Guldan should spawn 3 demons from the portal. So that while Demon Portal is active, you are rewarded for spending more shards at a cast, instead of of more shards over the duration of the buff.
Hell, set a limit to the amount of Demons spawned, and if you reach that number before the buff is over, you insta spawn the Pitlord, and any duration of the buff left is turned into Cool Down reduction for the DP Cooldown. The limit would cut down on the visual/FPS clutter and reduction, and it would reward optimized game play. Meanwhile, even you don't hit the cap early, your are still rewarded with the use of that button as you still spawning demons until the Pitlord comes.
They want to bring back our CD demons as a "big moment." That means your going to have to buff them significantly. Right now Infernal, Tyrant, and Observer are garbage. Absolute grade AAA garbage buttons to press on their own. Infernal is nothing but shard gen, Observer is nothing but a dot extension, and Tyrant is just a sub/cheerleader. Especially the Tyrant. right now when you summon Tyrant, you hand them a piece of armor and say "clean this." (fallout tv reference there) because that is all its good for.
They want to turn us into turrets, fine, but our damage need to reflect it, it does not. Nothing like watching RWF, seeing the absolute best players in the world going absolute ham, doing mechanics with pixel perfection, and if they are lucky maybe they are top ten.. And frankly this could go towards any caster really. Since Vault, you haven't see casters carrying a raid. Yeah I know there is the legendary, but that is a topic all on to its on. All the classes that use it, don't feel complete until they have it. Casters, Devastations aside, don't have a legendary, and all the staves, and trinkets in the world haven't made up that gap.
i've mained demo since early wrath. the legion changes from using meta to being a summoner spec almost made me quit. if it werent for the artifacts i'd probably have switched to main destro amd never looked back. legion demo was rough.. but they fleshed it out in bfa and its felt pretty good ever sense. them wanting to nerf demon core generation and pushing us towatds using doom sounds horrible. doom shouldnt be on demo, or at least not as an active ability. its not fun.. has never really been. and i think it'd take too much work to make it fun enough. its an ability a whole spec could be built around trying to cram it into demo is not the way to go about it.
demon cores, however, are perfectly fine as they are. they absolutely do not proc too often. they proc just enough to keep a good stream of hand of guldan flowing allowing for a good supply of imps so implosion is actually worth using. its a solid and fun rotation. and the netherportal is a perfect addition to that rotation. it adds extra burst without changing too much.
honestly, imo the change that needs to occure is to demonic tyrant. its just a cd you throw out during nether portal to capitalize on the amount of demons so its cd being half of portal's is just going to throw times off if you use it slightly too late between portal summons.
imo they need to get rid of tyrant all together and give us back our metamorph (rename). have it function on demonic power so its not a hard cd but a more fluid one you can use it when needed without fear of ruining your big burst moment. have it change a few spells like it use to but most importantly have it boost your demons damage output.
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with all that said, i do also frequently use destro and have a good understanding of how it works.. almost as much as demo. honestly, im not a big fan of decimating bolt but i am perfectly fine with avatar being removed. like, it was cool and all but it wasnt really engaging to use. its entirely passive.
imo, instead of decimating bolt they could lean into the infernal (and also a few other spells) in a different and more engaging way. let the charges still build up they do for avatar but instead of just spawning a blue infernal after it maxes out let it change a few spells to give an additional effect (using any of the abilities will spend the charge, resetting them). spells i'd change/augment with the charge: rain of fire change to rain of chaos (summons 3-5 infernals), chaos bolt change to fan of destruction (fires small chaos bolts at 5 enemies within 20 ft of the target, each dealing 75% of the normal chaos bolt damage), incinerate change to burning tsunami (sends a wave of felfire forward, burning all enemies cought within. basically the same targeting range as the evoker's deep breath, just without the character movement), and finally i'd change the curses to all be bane of demise (apply curse of weakness, curse of tongues, curse of exhaustion, and doom to all enemies within an area. the area would be the same size as rain of fire)
I havent gotten to play it personally because i dont have alpha but from watching kalamazi test demo on alpha it really doesnt seem as bad as this implies. youre getting extra cores from hero talents and while you do have less cores its not a huge amount less. i agree that line does look really bad on its own but in context its pretty alright it appears
Blizzard needs to move away from complex and hard-anchored gameplay and and make specs and classes reworked like ret!!
If one spec feels a lot better than the other 2, the solution isnt make the one spec worse, its make the other 2 more fun.
Both Destru and affliction are extremely boring to play
Shadow Priest being changed from shadow orbs to the insanity gauge just really tainted my love for SP. It was really cool to have those floating orbs of shadow around you or the shadow ravens that actually were functional too by making your Mind Blast and Devouring Plague hit like trucks.
This is one of the things that drove me away from WoW. Not Spriests specifically, I didn't really play them.
But losing cool things.
As a Mage / Hunter / Tankadin player for 15 years...
Fire mage got a (worse) version of fire orbs, similar to Shadow Orbs for priests in concept, then lost them. And most importantly *Frostfire Bolt* which even when brought back next expansion does not have the gorgeous spell visual.
We also had great Spells like Flame Orb that were taken away, Cinderstorm was a neat concept but taken away. Phoenix Flames was made into a talent too weak to be used for an entire expansion or longer.
They took away Hunters' Eyes of the Beasts for years and years. They took away multiple lovely spell visuals we got with MM artifacts.
Disc Priest? They lost Cascade, Prayer of Mending, the Angel wings, their amazing Artifact ability, Starshards from Vanilla...
If I have cool things I *hate* losing them and it, along with bad systems designs, increased prices and Blizzard's controversies are why I stopped playing after 15 years. But genuinely.. the main thing was losing the cool spells / animations.
all they would have to do is make it a talent choice. I wish they would make many things a choice. I prefer the way shadow plays now, but you shouldn't be screwed because you don't. reminds me of WoD when shadow priest were direct damage with mind spike.
@@victuss1413 Or even just a glyph for the animation at least
@@LightriverArt right? I much prefer old shadowform
like I say in all the comment sections: Hunter rework where? When? ffs blizzard please.
They could have a talent in their standard talent or hero tree for shadow or chaos bolt thusly .....
*"Your summoned minion now casts Chaos/Shadow bolt for 200% of the damage you dealt"* every 5 seconds.
I play Demo casually as an alt, but I think that Demo's issue has a bit more nuance. Essentially, Demonbolt is designed to be uncastable without Demon Core. You need that proc to generate Soul Shards at a pace that "feels good." When you don't have Demon Core, you're left casting Shadow Bolt, which is better damage-to-APM then Demonbolt without Demon Core, but it always feels objectively bad to cast because Shadowbolt creates 1 Soul Shard where Demonbolt creates two.
Now, you can't just "buff" Demonbolt because if you make it good enough that you can sit and hard cast it without Shadowbolt, then no one will cast Shadowbolt (Blizzard clearly wants Demo casting Shadowbolt for some reason). But by nerfing Demonbolt so Demonology has less mobility, they're also dramatically nerfing Soul Shard generation.
In my opinion, the best option would be a dramatic alteration to Demonic Core, as such: remove Demonbolt as an active ability. When you gain Demon Core, it transforms Shadowbolt into Demonbolt, which increases its damage and causes it to generate an additional soul shard while still using the base Shadowbolt cast time. Imps still have a chance to give Demonic Core when they fade or are Imploded, Dreadstalkers still have a 100% chance. Then Power Siphon grants Improved Demonic Core instead of a standard Demonic Core, and Improved Demonic Core transforms Shadowbolt AND makes it instant cast.
That change would nerf Demo's mobility while also making Demo's mobility completely in the hands of the player, and it keeps the better play-feel of having Demonic Cores with additional soul shard generation.
My favorite specs are holy paladin and destruction warlock. I'm just so tired.
The big issue is we have potentially 3 ways to gain demonic core and so are dreadstalkers which currently 100% to get 1 which is basically a baseline spell (its the very starting talent of the tree) then you have a 10% every time an imp dies to get 1 core and no this doesn't stack for any bad luck protection each imp is a separate 10% dice roll for a core and lastly you have the talent Power Siphon which kills 2 imps for 2 SS and has a 30 cd. So by massively nerfing that dreadstalker 1 down to a 35% chance it will slow the gameplay down a lot of make Power siphon and even more mandatory talent to take then it already is as it will be the only 100% to get some cores because those imp ones you can definitely have bad times were they just give none for ages.
Its just that really simple loop of SS to demons and people enjoy it being faster then slower. Honestly they could remove demonbolt and cores and just have the demons refund SS directly for the same basic effect and most lock players would probably be just as fine as long as that rate of shard generation wasn't messed with which is what they are doing.
if the class change would have fit in the game ten years ago but doesn't fit now, it could be that the game is wrong not necessarily the class change, i want them to slow the combat down and play more methodically.
If they want them to stand still, actually use the cool evoker mechanic where you get more stuff for charging the spell longer. That way you can move if you need to or charge it for a big hit.
As a frost mage main, glacial spike in its current iteration freaking SUCKS as a rotational spell. It completely throws off the flow of the spec. The only fun thing about it is seeing the big crit. I play with an addon that basically hides the damage values by shrinking them and moving them to the side of the ui and once you remove that dopamine from seeing big number you realize that the spell is absolute garbage to play with.
I used to main affliction in Legion but quit when they demonstrated they didn't know what they were doing with it. Which was when they moved from soul drain being the filler to shadow bolt. You know... The really cool thing where in pvp you can extend your dots and overall you can just become really tanky by also healing. And then they switched it to damn shadow bolt. Shadow bolt. One of the most bland and boring spells in the game to the point where this spell exists on multiple character classes, just recolored. The problem with affliction was not the filler being "boring" it was that resource generation was tied to an rng system that wasn't even related to your filler. You just waited for random procs from your dots to get soul shards. The fix was not to move away from soul drain, it was to make resource generation more consistent and less rng based. But no they just moved to a more boring filler. Yea guys its so much more interesting to hammer shadow bolt every 1.5 seconds than just hitting a draining spell. So much difference there wow. Definetly worth getting rid of the more interesting spell
Destruction shouldn't be a minion class. It should still use demons to empower itself but not use any visible minion at all that would help with DPS or whatever. It always felt like a Fire Mage with a minion and leeching and curses instead of burns, but that's just my opinion and I think Destruction could be better but without overpowering the other 2 trees so that Warlocks doesn't end forced to become Destruction on each raid (but hey, maybe the other 2 trees are more for casual play).
Played from vanilla beta to warlords. The main reason I quit is because I was a fury warrior main with a side of prot and not only was warlords lame but they completely ruined how amazing warrior was in mop. That made me quit after so many years.
Did finally return at the end of bfa, but I now just skip the season if they make my class bad, and I have no alts I want to play.
All the issues the devs and the playerbase have with Warlock can easily be solved by reducing the specs to their most base fantasy. Demonology summons lotsa goons to shank their enemy, Destro builds a nuke and then launches it at whatever's in front of them, Affliction makes their target slowly melt.
Demonology needs Demonic Core as a mobility and resource generation tool but overall it's just a means to an end: more Soul Shards with which to summon more demons. Demonic Core-ed Demonbolts are a crutch Demonology leans on to fix their mobility and resource generation issues. If you keep Demonbolt's 2 Shard generation but swap its damage and its cast time with Shadowbolt while also making Demonic Core buff Shadowbolt instead, all of a sudden Demonic Core-ed Shadowbolt is a mobility only spell because it allows for less Soul Shard generation which results in less demons per second than if you just stood still and casted Demonbolt.
Destruction is and has always been centered around Chaos Bolt / Rain of Fire spam, everything in their kit has always allowed for just more of that, but in the last 2 expansions they've been moving away from that. I personally don't think Destruction needs to be more complex than just those 2 buttons. We don't need Channel Demonfire as an extra damage option, we don't need Decimating Bolt to buff Incinerate damage, we don't need Shadowburn or Dimensional Rift. What Destro needs is more enriched Uranium for their nukes. What if Channel Demonfire generated more resources? What if Soul Fire made the next Chaos Bolt do double damage? What if Decimating Bolt buffed Incinerate's resource generation? All that would result in more more powerful Chaos Bolts, and more Rain of Fire, which is exactly what Destro needs.
Affliction is my baby. At the same time Malefic Rapture is some WoW dev's baby. These 2 things cannot coexist. In my eyes, Affliction is about DoTs. In this dev's eyes, Affliction is all about Malefic Rapture, the DoT's are just there to make MR do more damage. These philosophies are diametrically opposed and I think mine is the one most liked among the general playerbase. We need MR to be removed and for Unstable Affliction to return as the default Shard spender. UA should buff our DoTs per application so we can go back to having Agony be our #1 damage dealing spell. Almost everything else about Affliction's gameplay is fun and makes sense. Also the talent tree needs to be entirely reworked. The way the tree is laid out means it's aids to traverse and to grab different bits of it for certain situations, the nodes themselves are boring % damage increases that change nothing about gameplay, and they lack flavor. How you fix those issues, I don't know, but I do know they need to be fixed.
When you have 4 or more imps(max of 8) up when you hard cast demon old all of your imps cast demon bolt as well.
Reduce the overall damage of instant cast demonbolt by 20%
Anything is better than what they just did...
With the Destro Infernal / Avatar of Destruction change...
I don't see the downside overall. You still get an infernal as part of your kit, now you just have it slightly less often.
To be honest as Destruction it's nice to have but I don't feel like Demons are a core part of their identity. Adding in another big fancy spell to cast to spice up the rotation a bit does feel more like Destruction Warlock and would be more satisfying to me.
I just want demonology to have one powerful unique demon. Every single pet class is just how many minions can I summon that only last maybe 10 seconds. There is 0 variety.
This whole new "Powerful Moment" crap they've been spitting out recently. Needs to be spit out into a trash can. Every time I heard/saw Blizzard say those two words together. It was immediately followed by something negative. I dont want a "Powerful Moment" or a "Moment" Instant Demon Bolts are not "Moments" they are a core part of my rotation, that also happens to allow me a degree of movement while I instant-cast them! The only time you ever might consider casting a non Demonic Core'd Demonbolt is before you pull something, and keyword is Consider. Because depending on your build and opener, you might have other shit to do. And even then. Most of the time, I Power Siphon anyway! Unless It's a less than 20 seconds break between two packs in which case I probably still had my dogs up so I didnt need to Power Siphon cause I still had Cores.
"Moments" _are_ part of your rotation, that's the point. They're trying to make parts of the rotation feel cool instead of it all being kind of homogeneous mess. There are lots of specs that work well off "powerful moments". I would point to frost mage, with glacial spike and the coldest snap aoe combo.
@@Junebug89 main problem, is that for "moments" to feel good, you still need to have a baseline that feels good. For lock, without demon cores, their baseline is shit to play
@@Junebug89 Man. I just said "Instant Demonbolts are not "Moments" they are a core part of my rotation". And the first thing youre telling ME is "Moments" are part of your rotation...
And "good" job on Blizzard making "parts of the rotation feel cool" by making it feel like utter shit. Or trying to anyway. The actual so called Moment the Demo rotation has, is the part when you've cycled through your first pair of Dogs and set up to pop out everyone, and I mean everyone! Your Demon pet that is always there a pack of a dozen to two dozen Imps, Grimoire FG, the Vile Fiend AND Your Tyrant that buffs all of them. Including two pairs of Dogs at once! You know Summoning a Small Army of Demons? The whole thing that the Spec Fantasy is predicated on ever since it was remade in Legion? Because Demon Hunter were being introduced and taking Away Demo's "Meta-moment-osis".
Now THAT is a fucking Moment! But they are bound to keep nerfing the shit out of our ability to summon such a veritable trove of demons because it relies on being able to pump up Soul-shards quickly with Instant Casts of Demonbolt. Before dumping them on all those Summon abilities. Not to mention the whole thing about being able to dodge certain mechanics properly, though for me it was always a just a nice bonus.
You point out Frost Mage. Well how would you like it if they introduced Rune of Power back, and removed Ice Floes? This is, in essence what is being done to Demo. Instead of buffing the other two specs ability to move around in some way. Because "hurr durr unfair". They nerf the one Spec on the Class that is actually decent at movement. All the while justifying themselves as trying to "make Powerful Moments" all the while inadvertently inching closer and closer towards ruining the most important "Moment" of the entire specialization!
All of that being said. At the end of the day. Even if I am wrong about everything. Which I highly doubt I am. It boils down to us needing to kick up as big of a stink as possible about changes like this, to have even the tiniest of chances that Nothing Worse comes to pass.
at this point everything is such a mess we need a getting back to basics expansion every class set back to there original image the lines are geting way to blurred between what each class gives or just what it is ............
im of the mind that kalamazi had, leave avatar in but it is a choice between that or rain of chaos with infernal being a 2 min cd, then swap rain of fire with cataclysm so we have a nice aoe application of immolation (or what is going to be wither which will be gcd hit to cast manually). demonology the generation of cores is indeed insane once the buildup is in place but that does take a while and it being an instant cast does help with m+ or moving to avoid abilities generally.
Personally im going to be glad as a destruction main warlock to see the death (hopefully) of the one button rain of fire spam build.
Also as another note when the blasphemy was added as a tier set bonus it counted as an infernal which at the time meant taking reign of chaos talent / skill in SL meant when the blasphemy dropped every 12 shards it also dropped extra infernals. as such the skill or talent was redesigned so that it wouldnt interact with that ability and the reign of chaos talent was also nerfed to 15% per shard instead of the 20% it was at the time.
Chaos bolt is baseline for warlock??? that makes absolutely no sense when affliction will have no use for it nor demon when its a choice between that and hand of guldan, i may be reading / hearing that wrong
Unholy DK is sucha clusterfuck of Bullshit.
Festering Wounds is just Cancer, and idc if anyone says otherwise.
It's such ANTI FUN Builder Spender bullshit.
I am kinda fine with Build/Spend, because i love to play Rogue ( and thats the only Class i really dig the whole Build/Spend ) but its SO FUCKING STUPID ON UHDK.
Making you stand still more often in a game where theres more and more random swirlies everyfuckingwhere in regards to fight mechanics is just frustrating your players for the sake of it, period.
Warlock main here: I don't know what you guys are on about but the new demo tree is looking great and the core economy changes are not even noticeable
Wounds is great, in scenarios where your pulls are large enough to take advantage of the quadratic scaling. Having both wounds AND the increased disease damage in current BETA feels amazing, but may make UH a bit too powerful in aoe.
I feel like Unholy needs a rework, as Matt stated Wounds have not been important since Legion, outside of holding 4 for Apocalypse you just don't care about them. I get so much RP that I'm almost never using Scourgestrike to burst the wounds. Always, Festering Strike, Death Coil or Epidemic and then Apocalypse off CD. You only use Scourgestrike in the spots you dont have RP which Im not sure why I had so much but I do, but you dont use it much as you're trying to make sure you have enough wounds for Apocalypse
I’ve always had something to enjoy playing with wow, but character redesigns are why I don’t play league anymore, none of my favorite champions exist anymore.
My Dwarf MM Hunter is ruined because they are repeating the same mistake with Legion.
So they've effectively killed Demo warlocks? Fewer cores means less casts of the spells that use them. Which means less casts of Hand of Guldan, which means less imps, which means less random cores from imp expirations. Demo is the most fun spec because one you get rolling it's fast paced and rewards timing. If they are unhappy with the number of Demo spec vs the other two, make the other two better.
I might be wrong, but didn’t Kalamazi say that after playing it, it didn’t feel as bad as he thought it would? I’m no Demo player, but I feel like a lot of the people complaining haven’t played with the changes. Kinda like how people were with Lightsmith?
If Blizz wants me to stand still, they should make fights that let me stand still. Demonology is fun. I like Demonic Core as is.
I'm just so over this design philosophy of "oh, your class is fun? We think it needs more friction, because... reasons."
Crazy how all these complaints have already been addressed.
imo, Rogue needs changes as well, specifically outlaw. It has by far the worst button bloat in the game as well as requiring the same input speed as a korean SC2 tournament, and its so bad to level because you get no return on your input till 60-70 at the minimum. Rogue also has 2 specs in a constant fight for the same power fantasy with ass and sub, those should really be rolled into one and have the other become a cqb ranged spec like forsaken sylavnas (MM hunter being ranger gen sylv)
One easy fix is to make roll the bones a passive. Just make it so that casting an ability like finishers or any other combat related ability triggers roll the bones.
One another issue WAS that Outlaw didn't have an ability that really brought the pain in a burst.
key word being WAS since TWW makes killing spree a LOT more viable.
Oh and I am in favor of Shadow Dance going away from the Main talent tree.
Why? Because it's supposed to be part of the SUB identity!
I don't understand why they have cool abilities like soul fire, then don't even have a choice node in the hero trees to buff it. Like, I *like* being a turret, but it needs to feel like when I do it I hit like a truck. So give me things that make me hit like a truck.
I don’t care how it comes back. Call it Meta, call it Dark Apotheosis, call it ‘time to be a big demon’. But give it back and let warlocks tank
Yes please
you know what I dont get when it comes to those drastic class change? it force a single meta, wich is something blizz have tried to eradicate for years, only to end up causing it to spread more widely than ever due to stupid decision..
Everything in retail is a builder spender, so I play a Monk and embrace it. I love Warlock in classic, but Warlock in retail is gross. Frost Mage too, why they all rogues?
Man all the fun things we've gotten from people spiting bad blizzard decisions
People are always going to complain about changes, even if they're indisputably better. People were whining that warbands weren't optional too.
That demo change is too significant. A dependable core means you have a rotation. The demo rotation isnt fun already, and then they want to nerf it.
people are ignoring the biggest issue; warlocks are no longer a pet class, its either the mandatory guard that chokes up half the talent tree in demo or sac, and demo doesnt even get sac!. bring back the pet portion of the class asthetic
Demonology warlocks want to actually be demonbolt warlocks :O
not really its how the rotation plays when u have a load of cores verse when u don't. If i have say 3 i can cast it twice be at 4 soulshards press say hand of gul'dan its max worth of 3 SS and then spam it again and cast another max cast HoG, and thats not even taking into account other possible spenders that might be on cd like dreadstalkers, vilefiend, or grimoire felguard. its really simple more cores = more SS which = more demon summoning. less core means less demon summoning
While if i have no cores i have to realistically cast shadow bolt 6 times to do the exact same thing which is far far slower. In theory i could hard cast demonbolt but with how encounters are designed in wow today that really isn't an option and when shadowbolts cast is 1.5s and demonbolts hard cast is 3.3 (casting for both is taken from my lock in game right now) its faster to cast shadow bollt twice for 2 SS then demonbolt once plus if im forced to move during the 2nd shadow bolt i still have the first one i generated while I wouldn't generate any SS from that hard cast of demonbolt.
This is the dirty secret of demonbolt it isn't really designed to be hard cast its meant to be instant cast with cores they could make it an ability that u can only cast when you have cores and it wouldn't effect 99% of times it is cast. sure you might hard cast it at the start of a pull but beyond that its only pressed during a fight when you have cores.
The big issue is we have potentially 3 ways to gain demonic core there is the dreadstalkers 100% one which is basically a baseline spell (its the very starting talent of the tree) then you have a 10% every time an imp dies to get 1 core and no this doesn't stack for any bad luck protection each imp is a separate 10% dice roll for a core and lastly you have the talent Power Siphon which kills two imps for 2 SS and has a 30 cd.
Its just that really simple loop of SS to demons and people enjoy it being faster then slower. Honestly they could remove demonbolt and cores and just have the demons refund SS directly for the same basic effect and most lock players would probably be just as fine as long as that rate of shard generation wasn't messed with which is what they are doing.
Wish they made Destro similar to the lightning build that Sorcerers have in SWTOR.
Honestly I’m just happy to get decimating bolt back, always loved it
Still upset that they got rid of permanent water elementals for frost mages
If they want demo locks to stand still more, give then Thal'keil's Consumption back
I loved your banjo playing in The Chieftans, first guy.
Honestly, having to stand still sucks on it's own. Either have slow movement or like with Envokers where it's a staged charge.
Its as if we havent been here before... Kil'Jaedan's Cunning.
Warlock more than any other class tend to be weathervanes for bullshit.
Not going to lie, this is the first expansion I've planned to skip from the start. Doesn't feel good, but things like this make me feel vindicated.
I wonder how likely it is that this channel will talk about ff14 again. I really only subbed during the wow exodus cause there was a lot of ff14 praise and content but I don't really care about wow at all
My Marksman Hunter died with BFA pre-patch I absolutely hate what they have done to Hunter they seem to take more damage than any other class I play and I miss my WOD/Legion Marksman Hunter so much
Heavily disagree. They fixed MM hunter in BFA. Legion is the only expansion I didn't play my MM Hunter (and he has been my main since Cata).
Now TWW is repeating the same mistake as Legion, so I am already thinking of playing another class.
Blizzard needs to go full mask off and just make Demo locks a melee class. A full Fuck You like they gave hunters.
So im barely into the vid but as someone who just started level a warlock, wow thats a drastic change to start off with.
the answer seems obvious to me. just give aff and destro similar mobility. i dont think anyone thinks demo or warlocks in general are super mobile or anything so i fail to see how it would be a bad thing
Warlock has always been rather immobile, that is why it has so many defences. If you remove it's defences and make it more mobile it becomes more like other casters. Homogeneous game design is what makes classes boring.
@@robertfarrow3218 I'm not advocating for warlocks to get a dash or anything like that. It really wouldn't be the end of the world for aff and destro to have more instant cast options so it doesn't suck to move during a fight
@@Gewsfrahba True, aff always used to be like that but the devs have made a point of sticking with rapture.
This problem sort of translated to the new fire mage - ie It's going to be really fun, but is probably bad game design (casters are supposed to stand still and CAST) and will get changed in the future and then we'll be right here talking about how Bliz has ruined a spec and made it less fun.
You wanna talk about 3 minute cooldowns.....Ascendance bro. The most dead fucking cooldown in the game that continues to exist. And they REFUSE to redesign it. It brings 0 value to Ele and limited value to Enh. It'll be a huge spit in the face if they don't fix it going in to WWI, as it is every other expansion that they ignore it.
Whoever designs warlock should be fired immediately.
They could just design encounters not to require constant movement
problem is their design intent is shit since the post mop prune, rip warlocks, bring back xelnath, this is boring e-sport design bullshit, what happened to the rpg and fun of playing?
I’ the same with the Druid healing and Treeform. Itsead of taking the treeform and removing it completely and using it as a buff. Treeform had the ability to heal and move because of your HoTs would have been fun to try seeing it if it could root itself and everyone in a e0 yard raidius and heals everyone with the AOE hot that swiftmend and everyone in the radius healing everyone in a radius. Giving everyone a bark skin and a 15% healing extra healing of 15% healing bonus to i|. Gives everyone nn
Wwi is going to be so awesome!
They certainly created more problems that what they solved with Holy Paladin.
The worst rework in DF and its not even close.
Lock has been garbage since the pruning in WOD so locks are very familiar with being ruined again and again
Change the design goal, because standing still and casting feels shit, has always felt shit, and will always feel shit. Stop making specs feel more shit, and make them feel less shit. There is a reason why people magnet toward mobile ranged DPS specs at all times. Every time you make a spec immobile you relegate it back to the "this only gets played if it's overpowered" status, because people don't play immobile specs for fun.
I do NOT like wounds. The fantasy should be raising undead and dieseas.
these are not class reworks those are patch number switches.
CHANGE the classes then you dont need to deal with old ideas
this aged like milk , the intro at least.
Um I think I jus heard a call out to Scott Johnson and Frogpants podcast core... lol!
HA again they turn a spec into a turret spec. Literally one of the thigns that made me quit when they did it to shaman in bfa
Metamorphis Tank please and thank you kindly.
These dudes have no idea how wow works im convinced. Loooool
I like wounds
2 minutes in and they have said nothing about the topic, bored.
lol
negativity for the sake of clicks
Terrible out of touch player gives opinion on gameplay.. I'm good
hunters switching from mana to focus made me drop hunters for good
GARGOYLE BOYS NEED PI