RFM's analogy of 6th grade reminds me of this quote: "A reliable way to make people believe in falsehoods is frequent repetition, because familiarity is not easily distinguished from truth. Authoritarian institutions and marketers have always known this fact." - Daniel Kahneman
I got fired as a relief society teacher for not going by the book. Lol. I was repeatedly reminded I must, just teach what the book said.. lol.. however many of the women , came up after class to tell me how much they felt the spirit. Lol
I love your personal quote about "hell is described as a lack of progression" because it felt so validating; the church is always the same lessons over and over. Heck, in every lesson almost I would notice at least one person mentioning "I know, the primary answers, but what else" when trying to get class members to contribute to the lesson
This was so much richer than I could ever dream. Even for me as a non-Mormon who is learning about this vicariously. The time fled away. The impressions of his journey in literature alone is amazing. What a great -- really-- video!
Sandra tanner; was in SLC & went to a baseball game. Was so surprised to look up and see Lighthouse Ministries right there where my sister dropped me off. Of course I went in and bought some books, including one written by my Great-Great Uncle in the Ohio days. She was so gracious- much love to her!
The reason many religions continously repeat their doctrine is to " enforce" or prove to their congregations that they , the religion ( no matter the name ) ARE CORRECT . If, congregants have memorized or even been brainwashed into thinking it IS CORRECT, there is little fear they may wander off toward another religious viewpoint or < gasp > even think for themselves. I am a Christian. I worship The Lord Jesus Christ. I was raised to be an Independent thinker and so at this time I really do not have a religious affiliation. But, when I do start visiting churches again to find one I like, I WILL continue my spiritual relationship with The Lord . My relationship with the church will be as friends while my relationship with The Lord is for LIFE !
Best Podcast!! Love RFM! His story, I resonate with immensely! RFM, I encourage you to write a book about your experience... Such an interesting story! Mormon stories, is such a Jewel! Such diversity and intriguing interviews! I adore these stories, and see all of them as significant histories of our lives! Profound learning, and I'm blown away at the meaning that has greatly impacted me! I Thank you all for these sacred words that bring strength, courage and truth! In gratitude... CH ❤️
RFM's analogy of the LDS Church being like the 6th grade is brilliant! The same can be said of Christianity in general. Every church to my knowledge teaches that the teachings of Jesus is the ultimate and final connection to God. But this kind of "ownership" of the ultimate truth can only continue if the followers have only one source of knowledge. It's interesting to me that this same kind of provincial thinking exists in all religions to some extent. Buddhism teaches: "This is the path. There is no other that leads to vision." Islam teaches: Whoever seeks guidance elsewhere, God will lead him astray." Baha'is teach: "He that hath Me not is bereft of all things. Turn ye away from all that is on earth and seek none else but Me." Hinduism teaches: "Abandoning all duties, come to Me alone for shelter." Zoroastrianism teaches: "There is only one religious way. This one way is that of good thoughts, good words, and good deeds, the way of heaven, of light and of purity, of the infinite Creator." So the pattern is pretty plain......but what if we consider the various historical religions as grades in a school, a spiritual school for all humanity. The Founders of religion can be seen as Teachers who tailor their teachings to the needs and conditions of the age in which They appear. Christians already understand that the Jewish grade 5 was great, but that the Christian grade 6 builds on the lessons of grade 5. Maybe Hinduism is grade 4 and Buddhism grade 7 in that same school which includes the human race. I don't mean that these numbers are literally true, but just serve as an analogy. The point is that our grade 7 teacher was not smarter than our 6th grade teacher. Our 1st grade teacher may know algebra just as well as our 9th grade teacher, but his/her 6 years old students are just not ready for Algebra yet. Maybe the One who writes the lesson plans for the Founders of the great world religions was/is one and the same. Every new age gets a new Teacher who is supplied with the lesson plans which address the needs of the age. This way of thinking allows all religions to be the one true religion....but tailored to a particular time and place in history. RFM's boredom with being stuck in grade 6, forever reading the same books, learning the same lessons even though the world has moved on, our knowledge is growing ever faster concerning science and history. 6th grade just doesn't satisfy our curiosity and doesn't inspire us. So we leave the 6th grade garden and wander beyond the confining walls of orthodoxy, whatever it may be. My thinking is that whatever lies beyond 6th grade needs to be open to all knowledge available and include the entire human race, not just my tribe or country. And we all need the intellectual and spiritual freedom to explore and investigate as individuals, but we also need a feeling of unity and oneness with all people if we're going to build a better world, create a prosperous and happy future. Unity in diversity!
My 6th grader son doesn’t believe in religion. God or Jesus. And has presented some good reasons that normally a adult would give. Grade 6 today is already beyond the church. Very intelligent kids and yeah, the church is teaching nothing profound and just rejects itself throughout conference tear after year. In fact when I’ve listened to some recently, they almost don’t make any sense. Just rambling on is all I hear. Almost like dc132c the polygamy section. JS rambling on about why he should be allowed multiple wives. Reexplained in different words several times over. These people are not inspired at all. How are so many Mormons not picking up on that?
@@imoutbye 6th graders are usually into science and learning about the universe. We now know that every star has at least one planet and that some of them are similar to the earth. The odds are that among the 200, 000,000,000 stars in our galaxy there are thousands of planets with intelligent beings. Kids usually have no trouble in understanding this and accepting it. A good question for him to ponder is whether these "people" would have a religion and would it be different from earth religions? This is a good question for adults too, but kids are perhaps more honest and objective in thinking about this.
@@harlanlang6556 Amazingly subjective and honest, form my kids. Even my 7 year old doubts the existence of god. I don't know if that's bad or not as they may begin wondering what happens when we die. I feel as a kid believing that, that helped me with the death of loved ones. I still hope there is an after life. Hope. But yes that's a really good point I;ve never thought of. But kids are more educated. My kids attend catholic school, but not for the religion ,just better school system. and I think between what they hear about Jesus and god isn;t aligning with what science is telling them. Perhaps had we grown up in this era we might have been the same and had doubts about this all much earlier in life.
@@imoutbye There are many ways to understand God and the way God is presented by most churches is hard to believe, and that's why many people are dropping out of churches. What makes sense to me is that whatever is the Creator or Source of the universe is way over my head to understand, but there must be a Source because science has discovered that everything has a source, or a cause. I can acknowledge this Source of everything without being able to understand its nature. I can understand that Jesus and Buddha and others were inspired in some way by this Source, because everything, including the inspiration coming to Jesus or Buddha, has a Source. Try this reasoning out with your son and see if it makes sense to him. Concerning the problem of death, there's good evidence outside of any religion that there's more to life even after we die. Thousands of people have actually died temporarily and then been revived with fascinating stories of their experiences. www.nderf.org Here's a website created by a Dr. Long which includes over 3,500 cases of what he calls "near-death experiences", from people of all religions and cultures. Click on "NDE Stories" and then go to "Exceptional Experiences" to find out some of their experiences. If kids are aware that many people have had these experiences, that these experiences were mostly happy and joyful experiences, that family members are waiting to greet us when it's our turn to leave this world and enter the next, then kids, and adults, will lose their fear and dread centered around death. And you don't have to believe a particular religion or be a perfect person to have a joyful experience when your time comes.
@@harlanlang6556 Thanks for your thoughts on this. Really good points. I have done quite a bit of research on NDE's because after all this I 've had that question many times. And good suggestion to share with my kids at some point. My grandparents are in their late 80's, had one pass about 5 years ago. But I'm expecting we'll be doing more funerals soon, so I may need to refer to this. My Daughter, 7, has even said she doesn't believe in God because how could he have just existed. It all had to start somehow. 7 year old using some real logic, that sadly I think for Mormons and religious people is likely pushed away by their beliefs as they grow older. "Just believe" what those old guys are saying. For me personally I'm mad that I had more logic and smarts as a teen when I was not a faithful Mormon, then when I became faithful and brainwashed as an adult. Thanks for your thoughts on this. This is legit good advice.
I love RFM‘s analogy of the Mormon church as being like sixth grade. I would add, however, that it’s like sixth grade but with a heavy-handed dose of censorship, curriculum control, intolerance of classroom discussion, and threats to teacher creativity and autonomy. And the Principal is a control freak and the school board is impossible! Happy birthday, John! You are a treasure.
I wasted 25 years of my life😳 but of course I never would have known my husband or had the kids that I did. Too busy as a mother, I was never given a gospel intense calling, nor was I interested. Fast forward to 44, I was teaching seminary New Testament and I woke up… I wanted the meat and realized there were so many problems. Mormonism is not the church Jesus would support!
Congratulations! I would encourage you to keep digging. Soon you may also find the idea of human sacrifice and vicarious redemption within Christianity untenable.
During the Millennium, when Christ reigns on this planet after it's been cleaned about and is back to the way that the Garden was, the people that will be allowed to be here will be anyone how is decent and good, (not perfect), of any religion or not, because obviously there's been many goodly people throughout the time humans have been here. Baptism will still go on, as will sealings and such in temples, there will priesthood quorums as well, to help organize the work, babies will be born and when we die, it will be like the wink of an eye, no suffering. All will have come forth during the morning of what's called the MOrning of the First Resurrection. Many of these things are in Revelations, you just have to read. Those who observe Christ will see who He is and naturally will probably will want baptism. I feel really sorry when say, they wasted their time in the church, maybe you'd rather have been raised with a mother like I did, who couldn't take care of me properly, and I would end up in foster homes or she'd leave me at 4 with a half sister in hotel room with crackers and water, and couldn't pay the utility bills and finally when my dad had the US Navy and S/Services in CA looking for me, he found me, remarried a woman that I love, but that was incest survivor who bore her father's child and who couldn't give physical love and who sort of emotionally was abusive. You woke up, I wonder what started that. There are no problems, the BOM gives out much more spiritual understanding of the Father and Christ and HOly Spirit, because there are no errors. It's another testament of Christ, and if you do real research, like I have on Josephs marriages, he hardly had time to spend with his family let alone impregnate another women, no young woman ws cohearsed to marry him, these were ties for the next life, he as just too busy, he wasn't drive by sex and even scholars of other religions have said that after studying his life. Mormonism is word that world gave us. It's the restored gospel, it has the fullness of Christ's gospel, that record is a group of records put together, and man hardly could have written a couple sentences let along that book, anyone as myself in 1973 being 21 yrs old, can read it and if they have no agenda and a teachable spirit, they'll know at some point, they're dealing with a book that could be actually what it says it is, so either you know the book is divine, or you don't, and if you don't having wasted 25 yrs, I can guarantee you, you never actually received a testimony of that book as being the actual record of hebrews who came over to the americas, which is really sad, because you will end up in this life w/ your own children missing out of needed blessings, one of them will be knowing with every fiber in you that you're a member of a church that is being directed by Christ and our Father. You also have to figure out how you came about with your own consciousness, some of of us like myself have had such profound spiritual experience before joining the church that we would never leave, and that in doing so, would become a huge burden. I watch people I know that are close to me who left over the polygamy issue, never actually studying the report that the Tanners on youtube can explain, so they have such a conflict, that 3 yrs later 2 are divorced, I never saw that coming and one actually had to take anti-psychotic meds. She is someone who is a very spiritual person, who married about age 25, to someone that is a good provider but, she never got a confirmation to marry him, and now, she suffers, she's conflicted badly, and w/ 2 small girls, they are asking where does this and that come from, a wonderful time to explain, but she can't, and also says, she wasted time doing such and such on her mission. I've lived in many places in the US, I've had 20 different jobs retired now, and before I joined the church I always thought LDS people have something different in their countenance. That's why many people will join the church in these days, because this world is getting wickeder, they see if, if they are my age. The one thing that you know for sure, is that you are not forced to believe there is a god of any kind. And most people that leave, end up atheists, but there's that damn conflict, because they can't accept any explanations on how they came to be. I remember age 5 on the bus wondering, "why is it, I can't remember further back, because I know I existed before I can remember, but my memory doesn't see to allow me to", I put that in personal journal, I was always quite intellectual as a child. That's why it was so easy to read the BOM, I was reading adult novels and books instead of watching tv because of my step mother who didn't want me addicted to tv in the 1960's. So by the time I read it, and had the 2nd lesson by missionaries, and one told me that he knew that I knew he as telling me truth, that startled me so much, I didn't come back it took 3 sets of missionaries and doing lots of stupid things before baptism. Life is hard, and then we die, and we hope we get it right about what might come after. So I hope you're sure about what you think you're sure about. I've learned one thing well, never say never.
To Slick re vicarious redemption: too bad you cannot "get" that. (Or get behind it?). Judianity has jaded me, too. Which is why I do believe in Christ, and Him crucified. Not the churchified.
I awoke this morning around 4 AM and this show was playing on RUclips - I had left the computer on, having been much more exhausted than I thought. I was totally fascinated and watched, enthralled, the remainder of the program. What an extraordinary man! I can't wait to see Part 2, but I plan to go back and watch the program from the beginning. Wow. How interesting.
I adore RFM. He is an immensely entertaining character, who is bright as heck to match itA, god love you for giving him a full show! I enjoyed every minute! He can keep us fr any length….fully entertained, learning, loving the lesson!
This is a great "historical" interview with RFM. Thanks for putting RFM into the spotlight. He is charismatic, honest, complex, and tireless. He makes every podcast entertaining. I must say that my level of respect for him rose exponentially last summer with the Book of Abraham marathon podcasts with Robert Ritner.
Happy Birthday John. You join my great birthday month! I only recently had my faith crisis and you’ve been instrumental as I’ve made my way through my crisis. Thank you!
I absolutely love seeing two podcasters support each other! It really shows people your intent is to help people learn how to deal with unhappiness that follows learning the truth-not to compete for the limited pool of dollars available (which is a shame). I believe that although the money payoff may not be instantaneous, being vocal and supporting each other will pay off in the end.
The church is a school, but the only school I know where the school disowns and denounces its graduates. Yes, graduation is a good term. What I am into could be called post-doctorate studies: doing independent research, publishing the results, and sharing the results with your peers. But, my studies are not focused on the church, but are instead focused on the Gospel.
I love your passion RFM! If you are not already, you should be a college professor!❤️ During my faith crisis I was devouring so many different forms of scripture, books, articles, blogs…I was discovering so much, I was so overwhelmed by what I did not know. I was growing, and seemed to understand the symbolism of the Bible more. The Mormon scriptures began to reveal how wrong the leaders were in the way they interpreted scripture. John explained it well, as Mormons, we had all the answers listening to men of god, and to spend all my time staying busy- serving. I don’t read as much today, I’m exhausted from it all.😕
I try to never miss RFM. Of course, a vote for a part 2 (or 3, or 4). As a former Seventh day Adventist, I can relate so much to the Mormon stories. These two churches have a lot in common as far as being legalistic, having a "prophet", the only church who has the truth, etc. It was funny when RFM referenced "The Village". When I saw that movie years ago, I thought the same thing RFM did, except for me, it was relating it to the SDA church.
I appreciate you so much my brother. I am 58 and woke up a year ago. I can relate to you and your story. I too had people either love or hate my Gospel Doctrine class. I hated staying with thw manuel. This is only 1 similarity. Thank you.
Finally got to the end of this podacast, and what an amazing podcast it was, happy birthday to JD, and please bring back RFM for more of this awesome trio!!
When I lost a beloved family member in a horrific accident,i was about ten years a member of the church.i can’t tell you how much comfort I derived from reading the chapter in Gospel Essentials about life after death. Why is there something wrong, according to your 6th grade analogy, with being reminded again and again, that we are loved, are important and that we are individually loved. As a youth sunday school teacher, I make sure to include those truths in each lesson and no one has ever rolled tgeir eyes and com,”Really? We have to hear this again?” Your viewpoint holds nothing for me…
I'm glad to hear your story RFM. It is so good getting some sense of what has delighted and motivated you. I noticed while I was at BYU many years ago, the lack of curiosity of my classmates. They seemed more concerned with having the "correct answers" than asking interesting questions that shed light on why we are here in this world. No offense to my fellow students who were raised this way, this is not just our leadership serving us thin gruel. We are inflicting this on each other. We are in a social religious culture of the malnourished, believing we are at a feast. There is another factor as well. I believe the body of the church self selects the bored and incurious who are willing to stay in the program and perpetuate it. I found it alienating. I felt I was being made wrong for recognizing that my Soul was seeking something more profound. I agree with you about the music RFM, it feels like more of the same counterfeit.
I also loved Travels with Charlie, but loved more Steinbeck’s Cannery Row. RFM, you are so encouraging toward keeping your growth seeking toward true thinkers. Now I appreciate how much my Catholic high school education (all girls school) pointed me into the direction of great literature. We read at least one book of each of the authors RFM mentioned and much more, including Flannery O’Connor.
Thank You RFM and John Delin. Somehow, being an ex member of the church, even as a child raised in the church, I always knew that the church teachings were wrong but went along with it to please my family and the church, I knew no other options. Your podcasts validate what I have always knew in my heart, mind and spirit. I am 62 so that's how long I have had doubts about the church teachings. Bad things always happened to me by church members by priesthood holders. I am a survivor of child sexual abuse in the Church. I was told not to tell by Church authorities. Had to watch those who abused me bless and pass the sacrament, made me feel sick as a child. I left the church 30 years ago and waited for year's to feel validated about the cult that the church is. They are such Hippocrates.
🥳 Happy Birthday! 🎈🎉🎁 I loved every single thing about this episode! 💯 From the very first second, when RFM teased about getting ready for air time to the (too-early) ending. It was like two brothers sharing heartfelt thoughts, memories, teasing, slightly competitive (hey they’re men) but respectful and interested in each other’s thoughts. I love that you are both very intelligent, very witty, and so gregarious (John perhaps more than RFM?) And so humble and honest about the ease of getting sucked into the hubris of mormon closed mindedness. I’ll be rewatching this and probably making more specific comments. So much content here!!! Much love!
It absolutely cracks me up whenever RFM talks about how BORING the LDS Church makes everything. I've always felt that way and it's so refreshing to hear someone else state the same sentiments. I asked my mom as a kid why we can't have an acoustic guitar at church because I felt "the spirit" more when I heard guitar playing. hahaha 🤪
And I loved his comment about the boring music! I’d go further and say a lot of the hymns arrangements are awful, the organ is ersatz humble, and the overall sensitivity to world-wide culture is completely tone deaf!
Once I studied the Bible for myself I then understood why Mormon’s are so scrutinized and seen as Non Christians. I would have saved myself from many years of pain (and my children too) if I had taken the time to do that at age 18 instead of hastily joining something I knew nothing about.
This interview made me think of one of my favorite book quotes. “My son, philosophy as I understand it, is reducible to no rules by which it can be learned; it is the amalgamation of all the sciences, the golden cloud which bears the soul to heaven.”- Alexandre Dumas, The Count of Monte Cristo.
Thanks! (I just reread that book two weeks ago.) I love that they discussed reading literature here, and I completely agree. And I appreciate the aptness of your quote!
Every Mormon Stories gets better for me. This one with RFM is awesome and suits my personal style immensely. (I’m a never Mormon but lived in SLC for 14 years ). I have struggled with conservative Catholicism for decades and probably a liberal one still, as there is more depth to it. Even Thomas Merton, a great thinker.and monk, discovered Eastern philosophical thought. I gain insight from Buddhism and especially Richard Rohr, who also embraces the concepts of non-dualistic thinking and a universalism. John, your rational mind is amazing also. It adds such clarity to RFM’s musings. . I will contribute! RFM is truly special. John, you must be a great therapist.
Happy Birthday John. I chuckled along with the Walkman era memories. I'm left thinking how amazing it is that our personalities, strengths and indeed weaknesses travel with us through our faith transitions. All that compassion, enthusiasm and dedicated study travels with us. The negative challenges come with us too. RFM capacity to study, analyse and communicate ideas is fantastic. I also wonder what it would be like to get Chris Shelton and RFM together to chat away. Wow!
It would be great for those of us who not learned in such, for RFM to record a series of ‘critical thinking’ podcast guides. Especially if you are or have been indoctrinated for all of your adult life, in Mormonism.
John makes a great point that we all benefit when thoughtful people like RFM leave "The Village" and share their story. It's the very enlightenment the church works to prevent.
Wow - I hadn't realized the full extent of my journey until listening to RFM talk about his evolution! Especially the concept of outgrowing Mormonism! Thank you for doing these interviews with RFM and for all you do to bring truth about the Mormon Church and its practices, origins, etc to light for those who are ready to know! I first became frustrated with Church leaders a few years ago for policy that was hurting people, many times in extreme ways, especially relating to LGBTQ+ individuals. My family joined the Church in the late 70's. I think if I'd been more aware of the racism in the Church before then I would have had issues with the Church much earlier. Kind of in parallel to becoming disenchanted with the Church I was learning many useful things from books, RUclips videos, articles shared on social media and wise and helpful things said by people in lessons, groups I was in, etc about mental and physical health, success, self mastery and other useful things. I also started watching Come, Follow Me companion podcasts and really enjoyed them. They made studying the scriptures much more interesting by facilitating learning from experts, etc. General Conference began to feel like a waste of time in comparison to all the things I was learning elsewhere both religious and secular. It was also often very painful to listen. I hated the anti-LGBTQ+ focus and trying to use scare tactics that Satan was behind it all. I started realizing our prophet and apostles weren't the epitome of discipleship. Sometimes they didn't seem Christlike at all. I was also disappointed from things they said that made me realize they weren't wrestling more with LGBTQ+ policy and doctrine the way I had hoped they were. They also didn't seem very sensitive to the pain the Church was causing LGBTQ+ people. They could have been more sensitive while "laying down the law. " I also began listening to many, many people's stories (mostly raised Mormon, many who were LGBTQ+) and other things that popped up into my RUclips feed from Mormon Stories and elsewhere that questioned the Church. I learned even more ways the Church, its members and leaders fell short, but acted like there weren't any problems with what they were doing. Discussions at Church seemed much more us VS them and they seemed very afraid of LGBTQ+ people. They often talked about how bad things were getting and couldn't see how the way Church leaders and members were acting brought great suffering and was wrong. I also saw that people living their authentic lives did much better and were much happier than they had been while being constrained by Church doctrine/ policy.
(cont.) I saw TONS of good, ethical, moral, righteous people leaving the Church because the Church was harming them/their families or they saw how it was harming others. I had also seen that contrary to what I'd been told, our exmo adult kids were WONDERFUL humans. They weren't the degenerate, awful, sinful people I'd expected exmos to be. In many ways even though most of our kids had left the Church, our family had never been closer or happier. I saw a lot of kindness and compassion toward each member of our family and those in need. Around a year ago I was called as a virtual gospel doctrine teacher for a little over 6 months. At first I LOVED sharing highlights of what I was learning from the LDS podcasts I was listening to and things I learned from other translations of the Bible, etc. However, by the time I was done teaching I was SICK of listening to all the LDS scriptures podcasts I'd been listening to and SICK of studying the scriptures. It was really good timing even though it just coincidentally happened to be when our ward stopped doing zoom Sunday School so they didn't need me to teach anymore. (I was also having trouble keeping up on house, yard and paperwork I needed to do as well as having time to spend with my kids. ) I think I also had started having my apologist radar begin telling me I wasn't really getting the full truth from the LDS scripture podcasts. Also the scriptures themselves just didn't seem as much worth my time to study around that time. I had probably gotten burned out from all the time I had been putting into preparing and teaching and I think the podcasts had been more interesting when they included things I didn't know as well like Church History and background for the D&C and Pearl of Great Price. Also it was interesting hearing from scholars about some of the earlier things in the Hebrew Bible. It got a lot more boring in the middle of the HB.
(cont.) My testimony really started struggling as my cognitive dissonance grew. I started searching for miracle stories and for other things that were faith promoting as well as writing about my own miracles. I had an aha moment when Terryl Givens said either the Church was true or Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon were frauds. He said the Book of Mormon had lots of historicity issues and that Joseph Smith had painted the Church into a corner with the artifacts and things he said about the Book of Mormon making any explanation besides the Book of Mormon being a historical text unworkable. That really opened me up to realizing if there was proof of problems or fraud with our LDS scriptures then the Church could be proven false! Somehow that had never occurred to me before, although I had been confused and troubled when I had heard about some of the problems with the Book of Abraham translation. For a while I was pacified by Terryl Givens also declaring that there wasn't enough information for or against the Church being true to determine its truth just based on facts. Now I know that's not at all true - there's PLENTY of info showing the Church ISN'T true! One of my nieces and her husband who are quite intelligent mentioned a few months ago that they had found issues with the Book of Mormon and no longer believed the Church was true. I decided to take a peak at the first part of the CES letter. I was shocked that many names in the Book of Mormon were available in a book in Joseph Smith's area in his time. That was a big smoking gun. I was pretty sure the Book of Mormon was made up from that. But I shelved reading or researching any more on Church truth claims for a while.
(cont.) A couple months later an LDS Discussions episode popped into my feed about the Book of Mormon's issues. I was even more sure Joseph Smith had fabricated the Book of Mormon after watching that. I listened to additional LDS Discussions episodes on the Book of Abraham and polygamy. Then I started at the beginning of the LDS Discussions playlist with Joseph Smith's Treasure Digging. After the Treasure Digging and other episodes I'd listened to, I was totally convinced Joseph Smith was a con artist and that he made a fake Church. (I had idolized him before that.) I've continued to listen to all the videos in the LDS Discussions playlist. They're an excellent resource! I've also listened to several Mormon Stories episodes interviewing people mentioned in the LDS Discussions episodes. They've been amazing! My deconstruction was a bit of a mixed experience. On one hand it was such a relief to stop feeling the cognitive dissonance between my religion and what I felt was right and good. On the other hand it was scary not knowing what was true, whether there was a divine creator, if there was an afterlife, etc. I thought Mormonism had all the answers 😅 I had to get used to not having answers to a lot of things. I also felt very disconnected because there were very few people I felt safe talking to about my deconstruction. Luckily I'd already been in several nuanced private Facebook groups for LDS individuals and parents of LGBTQ+ children, so I knew how helpful private Facebook groups could be for helping with difficult life experiences that I was new to. I joined several exmo groups that were focused on creating community and also reached out to our exmo children and a few friends who'd previously left the Church. (Living in Utah almost ALL my friends were LDS! ) I'm still in the process of finding community, but I much prefer knowing the truth and basing my life and my decisions on truth. One thing I've noticed already is that I no longer make decisions that affect my future based on some supernatural feeling that things are going to magically work out. I try to make wise decisions based on analysis instead. So I'm grateful for that and think it will help our family's future to be better! I also feel more connected to my family and can see ways the Church came between me and my non Mormon parents as well as between me and my kids because of being so busy with callings and also between me and my exmo kids. My husband is still TBM, but I recently cut our tithing by 1/3 because I'd been paying pre-tax tithing even though I think my husband thought post tax was OK. (I was pretty overboard in a lot of things previously. ) I'm excited for the improvement that will make to our cash flow already and am hoping someday to cut tithing to the LDS Church completely. I would still like to donate to worthy causes, though.
(cont.) There are some good things I learned from Mormonism. I plan to recognize and keep the good and discard the bad. It's so freeing not feeling like my salvation could be at risk by choosing anything other than what Church leaders teach! (Although I had already done things with and for my LGBTQ+ kids that I felt was healthiest for them regardless of Church teachings. It was scary at first!) Anyway - I've begun an interesting phase of life! I hope at some point my husband will be ready to explore the Church's truth claims like I did. I don't want to spring things on him before he's ready to handle them, though! There are so many important people in my life, however, who I feel would prefer to keep believing than to know the truth because it's comforting to them.
I am so happy you got to catch up on the literary jewels of books that are out there. I think that well written books are a greater help to lead us to live a good life.....and a life that is more understanding of other. I really appreciate you sharing your story, thank you.
Love the channel, the content, and all the other really great podcasts I’ve found through here! Thank you so very much for teaching this never-Mormon (or would never-Saint be preferable? Genuinely trying to come from a place of respect) a ton! I’ve been going through both Mormon Stories’ and RFM’s back catalogue, and I was very much hoping to find this exact episode! I’m home sick from work today, and this popped up in my Suggestions. Thank you for all the great content, to not only MS and RFM, but to everyone I’ve found through here (nuancehoe, mormon.ish, CtC, Hidden: True Crime, etc. Hope you all had a great Christmas, and have a Happy New Year! 🙂
Herein lies a perfect example of NON Prophet, Seer, & Revelator that has more knowledge in his little finger than the 12 Apostles, oops 15 Apostles, Jesus forgot to mention the extra three that would be restored, by Joseph. I remember listening to a ‘round table discussion’ where it was mentioned that when preparing a talk, an apostle would often do fact checks with BYU professors. I also recently, as a result of watching one of John’s fantastic podcasts - can’t remember which on- she was a script writer or something- well that was mind blowing learning that apostles have talk and script writers. I think the most effecting statement that RFM made was that the church, apostles and leaders do not produce ‘new’ teachings, thought, etc, they just regurgitate what is already extant. The most challenging propositions seem to come from church educators. That for me was an epiphany! Had not thought of that before.
RFM is right. 20 years or more ago, Sacrament meeting speakers and lesson teachers in Sunday School were given topics to research or manuals that provided resources to address topics of Christ's teachings. I was a gospel doctrine teacher through three complete revolutions of the 4 year program (among other higher positions of responsibility). I began to notice that the manuals more and more merely quoted GAs and less and less taught complete volumes of scripture, and certainly dropped church history altogether. The same pattern was happening in Sacrament meetings and all other lessons. The time where members faithfully researched gospel topics was replaced with quotations of living leadership ad nauseam. Talks about talks given by GAs is now the modus operandi. The thinking has been done for you, shut your brain off and do/say what we tell you with smiling faces and little if any critical thinking if you please. It dumbed down Sunday School to actually skipping troubling scriptures (especially the Bible) and replacing them with core messages repeated until boredom drove one to sleep. This is a serious issue for those with actual curious minds and intellects that are not satisfied with the cotton candy spiels now delivered in a monotonous drone even in general conference. So much butt kissing by lower GAs hoping to rise to the red velvet chairs, but no real matters of spiritual food. Pathetic, really. So much that could be taught about learning to become a gentler people is wasted with fear mongering about supposed apostates and musket shooting. Oh, bother, . . . they really do not have a clue about much, do they? DoDo.
“Members go to church, not to learn, but to reaffirm their beliefs, to confirm they are on the right path”. How true that is. Groupthink on steroids, especially on that special Sunday, where some are deprived of their normal sugar rush, and have that special feeling you can only describe as, HANGRY. Difficult to see until I left the bubble. When you don’t start with,”this is true”, it’s amazing what you understand and see.
I applaud this person for doing his due diligence with hours of research.This is something few Mormon's do, especially if you are born into it. What is the saying "Faith not Facts". That is truly what religion is.Faith. If you start digging deeper than the leaders want you will be out the door-tithing in hand.This is true of many churches but the Mormon religion is at the top of this heap. The stuff they have you believe is soooo crazy I cannot understand how any thinking person can stay a believer....especially after going through one endowment ceremony. I have family members,friends and neighbors who are lovely people and are deep into the church.It is hard for me to look at them without thinking "how can your believe this hooey".
This discussion has a high point for me. How many things am I wrong about but just do not know it yet? I have never reached a pinnacle of anything but in conversation or discussions all of a sudden I feel like I am so completely "right". Possibly, the least right I could ever be.
RFM’s Letter Book - so many gems. I, too, found great profound things in Epictetus , and have a collected works of Shakespeare by my bedside. Yes, the “Boy’s Suit” is too tight for one growing up. There are so many more profound kernels of wisdom from the great thinkers around the world. Eastern philosophers also bring much that is inspiring to the surface. So much more to read and drink in….
This was a fantastic talk. I can’t believe you guys get blessings for your tithe, we don’t we are just expected to do it. Traditional Latin Mass Catholic here.
I listened to a long discourse by a man who was acting as apologist. In the olde days, you would bring up parallels to masonic rituals and symbols. You would get a "Hell no!" in this class, he presented an adjustment of truth that admitted the parallels to masonry in detall., in more depth than I have ever heard before.
It's ironic that my mom who is a huge TBM, goes by the same analogy shared. When I was going to get married she was excited that "I was going to progress in life by graduating (Everything pre-marriage) and going to university (going through the temple and getting married next day). Interesting how confusing and traumatizing was this experience for me even being born in the church. From 0-100 in less than 24 hrs. The amount of temple rituals!!! No one explained to me about prior and that I had to apparently give my life and existence to. Seems beyond serious to not have even discussed the 23 years before it!!
An uncle of mine converted to the Roman Catholic Church because he fell in love with a Catholic girl. He became a STRONG apologist for Roman Catholicism. I asked him one time, after he had argued his case very forcefully, “Are you trying to convince me or YOURSELF?” This uncle of mine was “more Catholic than the Catholic girl he married and her family”. However, I am convinced he was trying to justify his own “conversion”. Btw, our family was traditionally Seventh-day Adventist, so this uncle was coming from that background. When I left the SDA church at about age 20, I became a Baptist and did the same thing this uncle did. I argued very hard for Baptist doctrines over all others. Looking back, I was probably trying to justify my own conversion.
Funny, I can relate to your post. I fought hard for mormonism to convince myself then eventually left after wrestling with it for around 8 years. Around the time I left I began binge reading on Ellen White. Then met an amazing man who was SDA. We have since married and I go to church with him. I haven’t found anything that is “off” about the SDA church. Why did you leave?
@@jenben5alive458 I don’t want to discourage your new faith in the SDAs. Ellen G White is to SDAs what Joseph Smith is to the LDS. Around 1980 they discovered that she had “copied” much of her writings from other books, some were just books of fiction. The SDAs do seem to trust the Bible more than the LDS, no history of polygamy, etc. as a whole, I guess I’d see SDAism as an improvement over the LDS. I hope continue to be blessed there.
@@livehealthyfinishstrong Thanks for your response. I have been going to church and studying her works for about 6 years now. The church we go to is not what you describe although I imagine some people do think of her that way. She even says herself she doesn’t want to be viewed that way. Since my faith crisis I take all things with an open mind and am not surprised someone found fault in her works. Everything needs to be tested. I love her love for God and the Bible which I never saw in mormonism.
@@jenben5alive458 yes, I am sure it is a big improvement over Joseph. The difference with a woman prophetess is likely a big improvement over a male. Yes, as SDAs we were never taught not to trust the Bible, in fact we were taught that EGW never contradicted the Bible, but brought light to it.
John you swore! I don't think I have heard you do that in one of your podcasts...is it rare? Also enjoyed RFM and his story. More RFM! I happened to be listening to his first episodes just this week before I knew about this new one, so it was great timing. I am grateful for Carah and Gerardo participating in these interviews and leading them more in the future. I think having two "hosts" makes things a bit less awkward, more natural/comforting, and less jarring, particularly in interviews that discuss more about sexuality and intimacy. It just feels like it creates a safer space, and I am happy to see Mormon Stories investing in that direction!
Talking about Jesus Christ Superstar, I remember being told by our leaders and teachers to absolutely stay away from that movie. Because of this, I made sure I went to the movie. It blew out of the water any of the music and the lessons I had ever heard in church. Problem was that I couldn’t enjoy it due to the guilt I was feeling. That’s what the Mormon church does. It makes it impossible to enjoy, or be inspired by anything outside of the approved curriculum.
![Felix "Unfair" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Oswujxm2Ag0/mqdefault.jpg)
RFM's analogy of 6th grade reminds me of this quote: "A reliable way to make people believe in falsehoods is frequent repetition, because familiarity is not easily distinguished from truth. Authoritarian institutions and marketers have always known this fact." - Daniel Kahneman
And politicians too. Which is why they repeat falsehoods about their opponent until the electorate thinks it's true.
Also known as Illusory Truth Effect
I got fired as a relief society teacher for not going by the book. Lol. I was repeatedly reminded I must, just teach what the book said.. lol.. however many of the women , came up after class to tell me how much they felt the spirit. Lol
I like you said you got fired instead of "released". That's more accurate for a corporation.
@@tedgarrison8842 Yikes
I was told we weren't in RS to discuss, by a member of the stake presidency.
The spirit was there because your lesson was honest even if it wasn't following church curriculum.
@@tedgarrison8842 more than likely it wasn't especially if using church materials. You can invite the spirit of God by using other materials tho.
We need a series of John and RFM's lives. I'd watch 100 hours of you guys.
I love your personal quote about "hell is described as a lack of progression" because it felt so validating; the church is always the same lessons over and over. Heck, in every lesson almost I would notice at least one person mentioning "I know, the primary answers, but what else" when trying to get class members to contribute to the lesson
I love RFM! He is in my age range, and his sense of humor especially around pop culture is hilarious! His body of knowledge is second to none!
I like how he goes into detail. Interesting and nice to listen too
Thanks!
I really like Gerardo and am glad he's here!
This was so much richer than I could ever dream. Even for me as a non-Mormon who is learning about this vicariously.
The time fled away. The impressions of his journey in literature alone is amazing. What a great -- really-- video!
Sandra tanner; was in SLC & went to a baseball game. Was so surprised to look up and see Lighthouse Ministries right there where my sister dropped me off. Of course I went in and bought some books, including one written by my Great-Great Uncle in the Ohio days. She was so gracious- much love to her!
The reason many religions continously repeat their doctrine is to " enforce" or prove to their congregations that they , the religion ( no matter the name ) ARE CORRECT . If, congregants have memorized or even been brainwashed into thinking it IS CORRECT, there is little fear they may wander off toward another religious viewpoint or
< gasp > even think for themselves.
I am a Christian. I worship The Lord Jesus Christ. I was raised to be an Independent thinker and so at this time I really do not have a religious affiliation. But, when I do start visiting churches again to find one I like, I WILL continue my spiritual relationship with The Lord . My relationship with the church will be as friends while my relationship with The Lord is for LIFE !
Best Podcast!! Love RFM! His story, I resonate with immensely! RFM, I encourage you to write a book about your experience... Such an interesting story! Mormon stories, is such a Jewel! Such diversity and intriguing interviews! I adore these stories, and see all of them as significant histories of our lives! Profound learning, and I'm blown away at the meaning that has greatly impacted me! I Thank you all for these sacred words that bring strength, courage and truth! In gratitude... CH ❤️
RFM's analogy of the LDS Church being like the 6th grade is brilliant! The same can be said of Christianity in general. Every church to my knowledge teaches that the teachings of Jesus is the ultimate and final connection to God. But this kind of "ownership" of the ultimate truth can only continue if the followers have only one source of knowledge. It's interesting to me that this same kind of provincial thinking exists in all religions to some extent. Buddhism teaches: "This is the path. There is no other that leads to vision." Islam teaches: Whoever seeks guidance elsewhere, God will lead him astray." Baha'is teach: "He that hath Me not is bereft of all things. Turn ye away from all that is on earth and seek none else but Me." Hinduism teaches: "Abandoning all duties, come to Me alone for shelter." Zoroastrianism teaches: "There is only one religious way. This one way is that of good thoughts, good words, and good deeds, the way of heaven, of light and of purity, of the infinite Creator." So the pattern is pretty plain......but what if we consider the various historical religions as grades in a school, a spiritual school for all humanity. The Founders of religion can be seen as Teachers who tailor their teachings to the needs and conditions of the age in which They appear. Christians already understand that the Jewish grade 5 was great, but that the Christian grade 6 builds on the lessons of grade 5. Maybe Hinduism is grade 4 and Buddhism grade 7 in that same school which includes the human race. I don't mean that these numbers are literally true, but just serve as an analogy. The point is that our grade 7 teacher was not smarter than our 6th grade teacher. Our 1st grade teacher may know algebra just as well as our 9th grade teacher, but his/her 6 years old students are just not ready for Algebra yet. Maybe the One who writes the lesson plans for the Founders of the great world religions was/is one and the same. Every new age gets a new Teacher who is supplied with the lesson plans which address the needs of the age. This way of thinking allows all religions to be the one true religion....but tailored to a particular time and place in history.
RFM's boredom with being stuck in grade 6, forever reading the same books, learning the same lessons even though the world has moved on, our knowledge is growing ever faster concerning science and history. 6th grade just doesn't satisfy our curiosity and doesn't inspire us. So we leave the 6th grade garden and wander beyond the confining walls of orthodoxy, whatever it may be. My thinking is that whatever lies beyond 6th grade needs to be open to all knowledge available and include the entire human race, not just my tribe or country. And we all need the intellectual and spiritual freedom to explore and investigate as individuals, but we also need a feeling of unity and oneness with all people if we're going to build a better world, create a prosperous and happy future. Unity in diversity!
My 6th grader son doesn’t believe in religion. God or Jesus. And has presented some good reasons that normally a adult would give. Grade 6 today is already beyond the church. Very intelligent kids and yeah, the church is teaching nothing profound and just rejects itself throughout conference tear after year.
In fact when I’ve listened to some recently, they almost don’t make any sense. Just rambling on is all I hear. Almost like dc132c the polygamy section. JS rambling on about why he should be allowed multiple wives. Reexplained in different words several times over.
These people are not inspired at all. How are so many Mormons not picking up on that?
@@imoutbye 6th graders are usually into science and learning about the universe. We now know that every star has at least one planet and that some of them are similar to the earth. The odds are that among the 200, 000,000,000 stars in our galaxy there are thousands of planets with intelligent beings. Kids usually have no trouble in understanding this and accepting it. A good question for him to ponder is whether these "people" would have a religion and would it be different from earth religions? This is a good question for adults too, but kids are perhaps more honest and objective in thinking about this.
@@harlanlang6556 Amazingly subjective and honest, form my kids. Even my 7 year old doubts the existence of god. I don't know if that's bad or not as they may begin wondering what happens when we die. I feel as a kid believing that, that helped me with the death of loved ones. I still hope there is an after life. Hope.
But yes that's a really good point I;ve never thought of. But kids are more educated. My kids attend catholic school, but not for the religion ,just better school system. and I think between what they hear about Jesus and god isn;t aligning with what science is telling them. Perhaps had we grown up in this era we might have been the same and had doubts about this all much earlier in life.
@@imoutbye There are many ways to understand God and the way God is presented by most churches is hard to believe, and that's why many people are dropping out of churches. What makes sense to me is that whatever is the Creator or Source of the universe is way over my head to understand, but there must be a Source because science has discovered that everything has a source, or a cause. I can acknowledge this Source of everything without being able to understand its nature. I can understand that Jesus and Buddha and others were inspired in some way by this Source, because everything, including the inspiration coming to Jesus or Buddha, has a Source. Try this reasoning out with your son and see if it makes sense to him.
Concerning the problem of death, there's good evidence outside of any religion that there's more to life even after we die. Thousands of people have actually died temporarily and then been revived with fascinating stories of their experiences. www.nderf.org Here's a website created by a Dr. Long which includes over 3,500 cases of what he calls "near-death experiences", from people of all religions and cultures. Click on "NDE Stories" and then go to "Exceptional Experiences" to find out some of their experiences. If kids are aware that many people have had these experiences, that these experiences were mostly happy and joyful experiences, that family members are waiting to greet us when it's our turn to leave this world and enter the next, then kids, and adults, will lose their fear and dread centered around death. And you don't have to believe a particular religion or be a perfect person to have a joyful experience when your time comes.
@@harlanlang6556 Thanks for your thoughts on this. Really good points. I have done quite a bit of research on NDE's because after all this I 've had that question many times. And good suggestion to share with my kids at some point. My grandparents are in their late 80's, had one pass about 5 years ago. But I'm expecting we'll be doing more funerals soon, so I may need to refer to this. My Daughter, 7, has even said she doesn't believe in God because how could he have just existed. It all had to start somehow. 7 year old using some real logic, that sadly I think for Mormons and religious people is likely pushed away by their beliefs as they grow older. "Just believe" what those old guys are saying. For me personally I'm mad that I had more logic and smarts as a teen when I was not a faithful Mormon, then when I became faithful and brainwashed as an adult. Thanks for your thoughts on this. This is legit good advice.
I love RFM‘s analogy of the Mormon church as being like sixth grade. I would add, however, that it’s like sixth grade but with a heavy-handed dose of censorship, curriculum control, intolerance of classroom discussion, and threats to teacher creativity and autonomy. And the Principal is a control freak and the school board is impossible!
Happy birthday, John! You are a treasure.
I wasted 25 years of my life😳 but of course I never would have known my husband or had the kids that I did. Too busy as a mother, I was never given a gospel intense calling, nor was I interested. Fast forward to 44, I was teaching seminary New Testament and I woke up… I wanted the meat and realized there were so many problems. Mormonism is not the church Jesus would support!
Congratulations! I would encourage you to keep digging. Soon you may also find the idea of human sacrifice and vicarious redemption within Christianity untenable.
During the Millennium, when Christ reigns on this planet after it's been cleaned about and is back to the way that the Garden was, the people that will be allowed to be here will be anyone how is decent and good, (not perfect), of any religion or not, because obviously there's been many goodly people throughout the time humans have been here. Baptism will still go on, as will sealings and such in temples, there will priesthood quorums as well, to help organize the work, babies will be born and when we die, it will be like the wink of an eye, no suffering. All will have come forth during the morning of what's called the MOrning of the First Resurrection. Many of these things are in Revelations, you just have to read. Those who observe Christ will see who He is and naturally will probably will want baptism. I feel really sorry when say, they wasted their time in the church, maybe you'd rather have been raised with a mother like I did, who couldn't take care of me properly, and I would end up in foster homes or she'd leave me at 4 with a half sister in hotel room with crackers and water, and couldn't pay the utility bills and finally when my dad had the US Navy and S/Services in CA looking for me, he found me, remarried a woman that I love, but that was incest survivor who bore her father's child and who couldn't give physical love and who sort of emotionally was abusive.
You woke up, I wonder what started that. There are no problems, the BOM gives out much more spiritual understanding of the Father and Christ and HOly Spirit, because there are no errors. It's another testament of Christ, and if you do real research, like I have on Josephs marriages, he hardly had time to spend with his family let alone impregnate another women, no young woman ws cohearsed to marry him, these were ties for the next life, he as just too busy, he wasn't drive by sex and even scholars of other religions have said that after studying his life. Mormonism is word that world gave us. It's the restored gospel, it has the fullness of Christ's gospel, that record is a group of records put together, and man hardly could have written a couple sentences let along that book, anyone as myself in 1973 being 21 yrs old, can read it and if they have no agenda and a teachable spirit, they'll know at some point, they're dealing with a book that could be actually what it says it is, so either you know the book is divine, or you don't, and if you don't having wasted 25 yrs, I can guarantee you, you never actually received a testimony of that book as being the actual record of hebrews who came over to the americas, which is really sad, because you will end up in this life w/ your own children missing out of needed blessings, one of them will be knowing with every fiber in you that you're a member of a church that is being directed by Christ and our Father. You also have to figure out how you came about with your own consciousness, some of of us like myself have had such profound spiritual experience before joining the church that we would never leave, and that in doing so, would become a huge burden. I watch people I know that are close to me who left over the polygamy issue, never actually studying the report that the Tanners on youtube can explain, so they have such a conflict, that 3 yrs later 2 are divorced, I never saw that coming and one actually had to take anti-psychotic meds. She is someone who is a very spiritual person, who married about age 25, to someone that is a good provider but, she never got a confirmation to marry him, and now, she suffers, she's conflicted badly, and w/ 2 small girls, they are asking where does this and that come from, a wonderful time to explain, but she can't, and also says, she wasted time doing such and such on her mission. I've lived in many places in the US, I've had 20 different jobs retired now, and before I joined the church I always thought LDS people have something different in their countenance. That's why many people will join the church in these days, because this world is getting wickeder, they see if, if they are my age. The one thing that you know for sure, is that you are not forced to believe there is a god of any kind. And most people that leave, end up atheists, but there's that damn conflict, because they can't accept any explanations on how they came to be. I remember age 5 on the bus wondering, "why is it, I can't remember further back, because I know I existed before I can remember, but my memory doesn't see to allow me to", I put that in personal journal, I was always quite intellectual as a child. That's why it was so easy to read the BOM, I was reading adult novels and books instead of watching tv because of my step mother who didn't want me addicted to tv in the 1960's. So by the time I read it, and had the 2nd lesson by missionaries, and one told me that he knew that I knew he as telling me truth, that startled me so much, I didn't come back it took 3 sets of missionaries and doing lots of stupid things before baptism. Life is hard, and then we die, and we hope we get it right about what might come after. So I hope you're sure about what you think you're sure about. I've learned one thing well, never say never.
To Slick re vicarious redemption: too bad you cannot "get" that. (Or get behind it?). Judianity has jaded me, too. Which is why I do believe in Christ, and Him crucified. Not the churchified.
I feel like my postmormon self just leveled up listening to this. Thanks RFM! I am definitely in favor of more RFM interviews.
I awoke this morning around 4 AM and this show was playing on RUclips - I had left the computer on, having been much more exhausted than I thought. I was totally fascinated and watched, enthralled, the remainder of the program. What an extraordinary man! I can't wait to see Part 2, but I plan to go back and watch the program from the beginning. Wow. How interesting.
Most definitely want to hear more of RFM's story! He is fascinating!
I adore RFM. He is an immensely entertaining character, who is bright as heck to match itA, god love you for giving him a full show! I enjoyed every minute! He can keep us fr any length….fully entertained, learning, loving the lesson!
This is a great "historical" interview with RFM. Thanks for putting RFM into the spotlight. He is charismatic, honest, complex, and tireless. He makes every podcast entertaining. I must say that my level of respect for him rose exponentially last summer with the Book of Abraham marathon podcasts with Robert Ritner.
Happy Birthday John. You join my great birthday month!
I only recently had my faith crisis and you’ve been instrumental as I’ve made my way through my crisis. Thank you!
Thank you Gail!!!
RM profound quote, "We never graduate from 6th grade in Mormonism".
Happy birthday, John. Excellent choice having RFM as a birthday episode.
I absolutely love seeing two podcasters support each other! It really shows people your intent is to help people learn how to deal with unhappiness that follows learning the truth-not to compete for the limited pool of dollars available (which is a shame). I believe that although the money payoff may not be instantaneous, being vocal and supporting each other will pay off in the end.
The church is a school, but the only school I know where the school disowns and denounces its graduates. Yes, graduation is a good term. What I am into could be called post-doctorate studies: doing independent research, publishing the results, and sharing the results with your peers. But, my studies are not focused on the church, but are instead focused on the Gospel.
Fired BYU prof s book great,Lynn Wilder,Unveiling Grace on kindle
I love your passion RFM! If you are not already, you should be a college professor!❤️ During my faith crisis I was devouring so many different forms of scripture, books, articles, blogs…I was discovering so much, I was so overwhelmed by what I did not know. I was growing, and seemed to understand the symbolism of the Bible more. The Mormon scriptures began to reveal how wrong the leaders were in the way they interpreted scripture. John explained it well, as Mormons, we had all the answers listening to men of god, and to spend all my time staying busy- serving. I don’t read as much today, I’m exhausted from it all.😕
Not boring at all RFM, not at all.
And Happy Birthday John!! 🎉
I try to never miss RFM. Of course, a vote for a part 2 (or 3, or 4).
As a former Seventh day Adventist, I can relate so much to the Mormon stories. These two churches have a lot in common as far as being legalistic, having a "prophet", the only church who has the truth, etc.
It was funny when RFM referenced "The Village". When I saw that movie years ago, I thought the same thing RFM did, except for me, it was relating it to the SDA church.
Such a great Mormon Story. It's as uplifting as a fireside. So many perceptive gems. Thanks JD for publishing this interview.
Happy belated birthday, John!!!! What a bad ass guest to have on your birthday. I am so excited for this!
Happy Birthday! If our votes still count if like to hear more of his Mormon story.
I appreciate you so much my brother. I am 58 and woke up a year ago. I can relate to you and your story. I too had people either love or hate my Gospel Doctrine class. I hated staying with thw manuel. This is only 1 similarity. Thank you.
Beware of the edict in Sunday School Manual,1945,"when the prophet speaks,the thinking(as free agency)has been done"!😮
Happy birthday, Dr. Dehlin! You are a treasure.
Finally got to the end of this podacast, and what an amazing podcast it was, happy birthday to JD, and please bring back RFM for more of this awesome trio!!
When I lost a beloved family member in a horrific accident,i was about ten years a member of the church.i can’t tell you how much comfort I derived from reading the chapter in Gospel Essentials about life after death.
Why is there something wrong, according to your 6th grade analogy, with being reminded again and again, that we are loved, are important and that we are individually loved. As a youth sunday school teacher, I make sure to include those truths in each lesson and no one has ever rolled tgeir eyes and com,”Really? We have to hear this again?” Your viewpoint holds nothing for me…
RFM is brilliant! And so articulate!
I'm glad to hear your story RFM. It is so good getting some sense of what has delighted and motivated you. I noticed while I was at BYU many years ago, the lack of curiosity of my classmates. They seemed more concerned with having the "correct answers" than asking interesting questions that shed light on why we are here in this world. No offense to my fellow students who were raised this way, this is not just our leadership serving us thin gruel. We are inflicting this on each other. We are in a social religious culture of the malnourished, believing we are at a feast. There is another factor as well. I believe the body of the church self selects the bored and incurious who are willing to stay in the program and perpetuate it. I found it alienating. I felt I was being made wrong for recognizing that my Soul was seeking something more profound. I agree with you about the music
RFM, it feels like more of the same counterfeit.
Happy Birthday John!!! Wishing much happiness and good health!
I also loved Travels with Charlie, but loved more Steinbeck’s Cannery Row. RFM, you are so encouraging toward keeping your growth seeking toward true thinkers. Now I appreciate how much my Catholic high school education (all girls school) pointed me into the direction of great literature. We read at least one book of each of the authors RFM mentioned and much more, including Flannery O’Connor.
Thank You RFM and John Delin. Somehow, being an ex member of the church, even as a child raised in the church, I always knew that the church teachings were wrong but went along with it to please my family and the church, I knew no other options. Your podcasts validate what I have always knew in my heart, mind and spirit. I am 62 so that's how long I have had doubts about the church teachings. Bad things always happened to me by church members by priesthood holders. I am a survivor of child sexual abuse in the Church. I was told not to tell by Church authorities. Had to watch those who abused me bless and pass the sacrament, made me feel sick as a child. I left the church 30 years ago and waited for year's to feel validated about the cult that the church is. They are such Hippocrates.
🥳 Happy Birthday! 🎈🎉🎁 I loved every single thing about this episode! 💯 From the very first second, when RFM teased about getting ready for air time to the (too-early) ending. It was like two brothers sharing heartfelt thoughts, memories, teasing, slightly competitive (hey they’re men) but respectful and interested in each other’s thoughts. I love that you are both very intelligent, very witty, and so gregarious (John perhaps more than RFM?) And so humble and honest about the ease of getting sucked into the hubris of mormon closed mindedness. I’ll be rewatching this and probably making more specific comments. So much content here!!! Much love!
It absolutely cracks me up whenever RFM talks about how BORING the LDS Church makes everything. I've always felt that way and it's so refreshing to hear someone else state the same sentiments. I asked my mom as a kid why we can't have an acoustic guitar at church because I felt "the spirit" more when I heard guitar playing. hahaha 🤪
el esta en lo correcto.
And I loved his comment about the boring music! I’d go further and say a lot of the hymns arrangements are awful, the organ is ersatz humble, and the overall sensitivity to world-wide culture is completely tone deaf!
Cows follow each other in a boring cadence in their daily walk. Looks similar to chapel entrance and exit.
Once I studied the Bible for myself I then understood why Mormon’s are so scrutinized and seen as Non Christians. I would have saved myself from many years of pain (and my children too) if I had taken the time to do that at age 18 instead of hastily joining something I knew nothing about.
Amen!1John1:9/5:13
Hi John. Happy Birthday. So glad to see the 2 of you together and with Gerardo too. Great stuff.
Wasn't there live but I'll always vote in favor of more RFM!
Happy Birthday John! Glad you are getting your health back! 💗
This interview made me think of one of my favorite book quotes. “My son, philosophy as I understand it, is reducible to no rules by which it can be learned; it is the amalgamation of all the sciences, the golden cloud which bears the soul to heaven.”- Alexandre Dumas, The Count of Monte Cristo.
Thanks! (I just reread that book two weeks ago.) I love that they discussed reading literature here, and I completely agree. And I appreciate the aptness of your quote!
Every Mormon Stories gets better for me. This one with RFM is awesome and suits my personal style immensely. (I’m a never Mormon but lived in SLC for 14 years ). I have struggled with conservative Catholicism for decades and probably a liberal one still, as there is more depth to it. Even Thomas Merton, a great thinker.and monk, discovered Eastern philosophical thought. I gain insight from Buddhism and especially Richard Rohr, who also embraces the concepts of non-dualistic thinking and a universalism. John, your rational mind is amazing also. It adds such clarity to RFM’s musings. . I will contribute! RFM is truly special. John, you must be a great therapist.
Happy Birthday John. I chuckled along with the Walkman era memories. I'm left thinking how amazing it is that our personalities, strengths and indeed weaknesses travel with us through our faith transitions. All that compassion, enthusiasm and dedicated study travels with us. The negative challenges come with us too. RFM capacity to study, analyse and communicate ideas is fantastic. I also wonder what it would be like to get Chris Shelton and RFM together to chat away. Wow!
It would be great for those of us who not learned in such, for RFM to record a series of ‘critical thinking’ podcast guides. Especially if you are or have been indoctrinated for all of your adult life, in Mormonism.
I hope he comes back soon to finish his story. It’s fascinating! And thanks to John for pushing our favorite analyst to talk aboit emotions 😘
This was genius! It spoke power to my heart! Thankyou
John makes a great point that we all benefit when thoughtful people like RFM leave "The Village" and share their story. It's the very enlightenment the church works to prevent.
Wow - I hadn't realized the full extent of my journey until listening to RFM talk about his evolution! Especially the concept of outgrowing Mormonism!
Thank you for doing these interviews with RFM and for all you do to bring truth about the Mormon Church and its practices, origins, etc to light for those who are ready to know!
I first became frustrated with Church leaders a few years ago for policy that was hurting people, many times in extreme ways, especially relating to LGBTQ+ individuals. My family joined the Church in the late 70's. I think if I'd been more aware of the racism in the Church before then I would have had issues with the Church much earlier.
Kind of in parallel to becoming disenchanted with the Church I was learning many useful things from books, RUclips videos, articles shared on social media and wise and helpful things said by people in lessons, groups I was in, etc about mental and physical health, success, self mastery and other useful things. I also started watching Come, Follow Me companion podcasts and really enjoyed them. They made studying the scriptures much more interesting by facilitating learning from experts, etc.
General Conference began to feel like a waste of time in comparison to all the things I was learning elsewhere both religious and secular. It was also often very painful to listen. I hated the anti-LGBTQ+ focus and trying to use scare tactics that Satan was behind it all.
I started realizing our prophet and apostles weren't the epitome of discipleship. Sometimes they didn't seem Christlike at all. I was also disappointed from things they said that made me realize they weren't wrestling more with LGBTQ+ policy and doctrine the way I had hoped they were. They also didn't seem very sensitive to the pain the Church was causing LGBTQ+ people. They could have been more sensitive while "laying down the law. "
I also began listening to many, many people's stories (mostly raised Mormon, many who were LGBTQ+) and other things that popped up into my RUclips feed from Mormon Stories and elsewhere that questioned the Church. I learned even more ways the Church, its members and leaders fell short, but acted like there weren't any problems with what they were doing. Discussions at Church seemed much more us VS them and they seemed very afraid of LGBTQ+ people. They often talked about how bad things were getting and couldn't see how the way Church leaders and members were acting brought great suffering and was wrong. I also saw that people living their authentic lives did much better and were much happier than they had been while being constrained by Church doctrine/ policy.
(cont.) I saw TONS of good, ethical, moral, righteous people leaving the Church because the Church was harming them/their families or they saw how it was harming others. I had also seen that contrary to what I'd been told, our exmo adult kids were WONDERFUL humans. They weren't the degenerate, awful, sinful people I'd expected exmos to be. In many ways even though most of our kids had left the Church, our family had never been closer or happier. I saw a lot of kindness and compassion toward each member of our family and those in need.
Around a year ago I was called as a virtual gospel doctrine teacher for a little over 6 months. At first I LOVED sharing highlights of what I was learning from the LDS podcasts I was listening to and things I learned from other translations of the Bible, etc.
However, by the time I was done teaching I was SICK of listening to all the LDS scriptures podcasts I'd been listening to and SICK of studying the scriptures. It was really good timing even though it just coincidentally happened to be when our ward stopped doing zoom Sunday School so they didn't need me to teach anymore. (I was also having trouble keeping up on house, yard and paperwork I needed to do as well as having time to spend with my kids. )
I think I also had started having my apologist radar begin telling me I wasn't really getting the full truth from the LDS scripture podcasts. Also the scriptures themselves just didn't seem as much worth my time to study around that time. I had probably gotten burned out from all the time I had been putting into preparing and teaching and I think the podcasts had been more interesting when they included things I didn't know as well like Church History and background for the D&C and Pearl of Great Price. Also it was interesting hearing from scholars about some of the earlier things in the Hebrew Bible. It got a lot more boring in the middle of the HB.
(cont.) My testimony really started struggling as my cognitive dissonance grew. I started searching for miracle stories and for other things that were faith promoting as well as writing about my own miracles.
I had an aha moment when Terryl Givens said either the Church was true or Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon were frauds. He said the Book of Mormon had lots of historicity issues and that Joseph Smith had painted the Church into a corner with the artifacts and things he said about the Book of Mormon making any explanation besides the Book of Mormon being a historical text unworkable.
That really opened me up to realizing if there was proof of problems or fraud with our LDS scriptures then the Church could be proven false! Somehow that had never occurred to me before, although I had been confused and troubled when I had heard about some of the problems with the Book of Abraham translation. For a while I was pacified by Terryl Givens also declaring that there wasn't enough information for or against the Church being true to determine its truth just based on facts. Now I know that's not at all true - there's PLENTY of info showing the Church ISN'T true!
One of my nieces and her husband who are quite intelligent mentioned a few months ago that they had found issues with the Book of Mormon and no longer believed the Church was true. I decided to take a peak at the first part of the CES letter. I was shocked that many names in the Book of Mormon were available in a book in Joseph Smith's area in his time. That was a big smoking gun. I was pretty sure the Book of Mormon was made up from that. But I shelved reading or researching any more on Church truth claims for a while.
(cont.) A couple months later an LDS Discussions episode popped into my feed about the Book of Mormon's issues. I was even more sure Joseph Smith had fabricated the Book of Mormon after watching that. I listened to additional LDS Discussions episodes on the Book of Abraham and polygamy. Then I started at the beginning of the LDS Discussions playlist with Joseph Smith's Treasure Digging. After the Treasure Digging and other episodes I'd listened to, I was totally convinced Joseph Smith was a con artist and that he made a fake Church. (I had idolized him before that.) I've continued to listen to all the videos in the LDS Discussions playlist. They're an excellent resource! I've also listened to several Mormon Stories episodes interviewing people mentioned in the LDS Discussions episodes. They've been amazing!
My deconstruction was a bit of a mixed experience. On one hand it was such a relief to stop feeling the cognitive dissonance between my religion and what I felt was right and good. On the other hand it was scary not knowing what was true, whether there was a divine creator, if there was an afterlife, etc. I thought Mormonism had all the answers 😅 I had to get used to not having answers to a lot of things. I also felt very disconnected because there were very few people I felt safe talking to about my deconstruction.
Luckily I'd already been in several nuanced private Facebook groups for LDS individuals and parents of LGBTQ+ children, so I knew how helpful private Facebook groups could be for helping with difficult life experiences that I was new to. I joined several exmo groups that were focused on creating community and also reached out to our exmo children and a few friends who'd previously left the Church. (Living in Utah almost ALL my friends were LDS! )
I'm still in the process of finding community, but I much prefer knowing the truth and basing my life and my decisions on truth. One thing I've noticed already is that I no longer make decisions that affect my future based on some supernatural feeling that things are going to magically work out. I try to make wise decisions based on analysis instead. So I'm grateful for that and think it will help our family's future to be better!
I also feel more connected to my family and can see ways the Church came between me and my non Mormon parents as well as between me and my kids because of being so busy with callings and also between me and my exmo kids.
My husband is still TBM, but I recently cut our tithing by 1/3 because I'd been paying pre-tax tithing even though I think my husband thought post tax was OK. (I was pretty overboard in a lot of things previously. ) I'm excited for the improvement that will make to our cash flow already and am hoping someday to cut tithing to the LDS Church completely. I would still like to donate to worthy causes, though.
(cont.) There are some good things I learned from Mormonism. I plan to recognize and keep the good and discard the bad. It's so freeing not feeling like my salvation could be at risk by choosing anything other than what Church leaders teach! (Although I had already done things with and for my LGBTQ+ kids that I felt was healthiest for them regardless of Church teachings. It was scary at first!)
Anyway - I've begun an interesting phase of life! I hope at some point my husband will be ready to explore the Church's truth claims like I did. I don't want to spring things on him before he's ready to handle them, though! There are so many important people in my life, however, who I feel would prefer to keep believing than to know the truth because it's comforting to them.
I am so happy you got to catch up on the literary jewels of books that are out there. I think that well written books are a greater help to lead us to live a good life.....and a life that is more understanding of other. I really appreciate you sharing your story, thank you.
John you are amazing, thank you for all you do. another great episode. love your takes and insights.
Happy Birthday. I hope your celebrations are wonderfully spent.
Love the channel, the content, and all the other really great podcasts I’ve found through here! Thank you so very much for teaching this never-Mormon (or would never-Saint be preferable? Genuinely trying to come from a place of respect) a ton!
I’ve been going through both Mormon Stories’ and RFM’s back catalogue, and I was very much hoping to find this exact episode! I’m home sick from work today, and this popped up in my Suggestions.
Thank you for all the great content, to not only MS and RFM, but to everyone I’ve found through here (nuancehoe, mormon.ish, CtC, Hidden: True Crime, etc.
Hope you all had a great Christmas, and have a Happy New Year! 🙂
Herein lies a perfect example of NON Prophet, Seer, & Revelator that has more knowledge in his little finger than the 12 Apostles, oops 15 Apostles, Jesus forgot to mention the extra three that would be restored, by Joseph.
I remember listening to a ‘round table discussion’ where it was mentioned that when preparing a talk, an apostle would often do fact checks with BYU professors.
I also recently, as a result of watching one of John’s fantastic podcasts - can’t remember which on- she was a script writer or something- well that was mind blowing learning that apostles have talk and script writers.
I think the most effecting statement that RFM made was that the church, apostles and leaders do not produce ‘new’ teachings, thought, etc, they just regurgitate what is already extant.
The most challenging propositions seem to come from church educators. That for me was an epiphany! Had not thought of that before.
Happy Birthday John!! Thank you for all you do.
Man I love the segments when you three “riff and rant” together about our common Mormon heritage 👏
Amazing talk - I have to start reading the classics again!
So glad I was able to "graduate" while still in my twenties and before my son was old enough to start getting indoctrinated.
Same!!
RFM is right. 20 years or more ago, Sacrament meeting speakers and lesson teachers in Sunday School were given topics to research or manuals that provided resources to address topics of Christ's teachings. I was a gospel doctrine teacher through three complete revolutions of the 4 year program (among other higher positions of responsibility). I began to notice that the manuals more and more merely quoted GAs and less and less taught complete volumes of scripture, and certainly dropped church history altogether. The same pattern was happening in Sacrament meetings and all other lessons. The time where members faithfully researched gospel topics was replaced with quotations of living leadership ad nauseam. Talks about talks given by GAs is now the modus operandi. The thinking has been done for you, shut your brain off and do/say what we tell you with smiling faces and little if any critical thinking if you please. It dumbed down Sunday School to actually skipping troubling scriptures (especially the Bible) and replacing them with core messages repeated until boredom drove one to sleep. This is a serious issue for those with actual curious minds and intellects that are not satisfied with the cotton candy spiels now delivered in a monotonous drone even in general conference. So much butt kissing by lower GAs hoping to rise to the red velvet chairs, but no real matters of spiritual food. Pathetic, really. So much that could be taught about learning to become a gentler people is wasted with fear mongering about supposed apostates and musket shooting. Oh, bother, . . . they really do not have a clue about much, do they? DoDo.
Stay with the bible only brother!Colossians2:14¡😊
Beautiful episode thank you!
“Is this an audience or an oil painting?” RFM, dude you freaking killed me with that line. I thought you were witty before….holy crap!!!
“Members go to church, not to learn, but to reaffirm their beliefs, to confirm they are on the right path”. How true that is. Groupthink on steroids, especially on that special Sunday, where some are deprived of their normal sugar rush, and have that special feeling you can only describe as, HANGRY.
Difficult to see until I left the bubble. When you don’t start with,”this is true”, it’s amazing what you understand and see.
I applaud this person for doing his due diligence with hours of research.This is something few Mormon's do, especially if you are born into it. What is the saying "Faith not Facts". That is truly what religion is.Faith. If you start digging deeper than the leaders want you will be out the door-tithing in hand.This is true of many churches but the Mormon religion is at the top of this heap. The stuff they have you believe is soooo crazy I cannot understand how any thinking person can stay a believer....especially after going through one endowment ceremony. I have family members,friends and neighbors who are lovely people and are deep into the church.It is hard for me to look at them without thinking "how can your believe this hooey".
This discussion has a high point for me. How many things am I wrong about but just do not know it yet? I have never reached a pinnacle of anything but in conversation or discussions all of a sudden I feel like I am so completely "right". Possibly, the least right I could ever be.
We need more RFM
Happy Birthday 💐💐 we want part two
RFM’s Letter Book - so many gems. I, too, found great profound things in Epictetus , and have a collected works of Shakespeare by my bedside. Yes, the “Boy’s Suit” is too tight for one growing up. There are so many more profound kernels of wisdom from the great thinkers around the world. Eastern philosophers also bring much that is inspiring to the surface. So much more to read and drink in….
Happy birthday John 🎉 changed my life. I LOVE YOUR MORMON STORIES ❤
Wow I recently discovered this channel and it’s quite liberating as someone born into but never feeling apart of LDS.
Will this be uploaded as a podcast? I've been very much looking forward to listening to this since RFM teased it on Mormonism Live like a month ago.
Thanks to you as well John. I appreciate you so much as well. Keep it coming - never give up - never. Thank you.
NOT boring!! More, please...
Quit hating on Jimmy Snow and have him on as co-host. He knows what he is talking about when it comes to Mormonism.
I love Jimmy Snow!
Happy Birthday! My son has his birthday today also and he is 42!
RFM would adore my dear friend Larry Gianakos who is a modern day literary genius - also studying from his basement for the last 45 years.
This was a fantastic talk. I can’t believe you guys get blessings for your tithe, we don’t we are just expected to do it. Traditional Latin Mass Catholic here.
RFM I don't think asking someone how to pronounce their name is offensive. I find it to be respectful because it shows you care.
I listened to a long discourse by a man who was acting as apologist. In the olde days, you would bring up parallels to masonic rituals and symbols. You would get a "Hell no!" in this class, he presented an adjustment of truth that admitted the parallels to masonry in detall., in more depth than I have ever heard before.
It's ironic that my mom who is a huge TBM, goes by the same analogy shared. When I was going to get married she was excited that "I was going to progress in life by graduating (Everything pre-marriage) and going to university (going through the temple and getting married next day). Interesting how confusing and traumatizing was this experience for me even being born in the church. From 0-100 in less than 24 hrs. The amount of temple rituals!!! No one explained to me about prior and that I had to apparently give my life and existence to. Seems beyond serious to not have even discussed the 23 years before it!!
We NEED a part 2 and maybe a 3.
Woe to those who "look beyond the mark" Jacob 4:14 🙄
To think of the grief and fear this scripture brought to my soul.
Bonne Fête, Dr.Dehlin!
Moroni8:18 vs.Joseph s King Follet Discourse 2months before his death.
We want more RFM
Happy birthday, John!
An uncle of mine converted to the Roman Catholic Church because he fell in love with a Catholic girl. He became a STRONG apologist for Roman Catholicism. I asked him one time, after he had argued his case very forcefully, “Are you trying to convince me or YOURSELF?”
This uncle of mine was “more Catholic than the Catholic girl he married and her family”. However, I am convinced he was trying to justify his own “conversion”.
Btw, our family was traditionally Seventh-day Adventist, so this uncle was coming from that background.
When I left the SDA church at about age 20, I became a Baptist and did the same thing this uncle did. I argued very hard for Baptist doctrines over all others. Looking back, I was probably trying to justify my own conversion.
Funny, I can relate to your post. I fought hard for mormonism to convince myself then eventually left after wrestling with it for around 8 years. Around the time I left I began binge reading on Ellen White. Then met an amazing man who was SDA. We have since married and I go to church with him. I haven’t found anything that is “off” about the SDA church. Why did you leave?
@@jenben5alive458 I don’t want to discourage your new faith in the SDAs. Ellen G White is to SDAs what Joseph Smith is to the LDS. Around 1980 they discovered that she had “copied” much of her writings from other books, some were just books of fiction. The SDAs do seem to trust the Bible more than the LDS, no history of polygamy, etc. as a whole, I guess I’d see SDAism as an improvement over the LDS. I hope continue to be blessed there.
@@livehealthyfinishstrong Thanks for your response. I have been going to church and studying her works for about 6 years now. The church we go to is not what you describe although I imagine some people do think of her that way. She even says herself she doesn’t want to be viewed that way. Since my faith crisis I take all things with an open mind and am not surprised someone found fault in her works. Everything needs to be tested. I love her love for God and the Bible which I never saw in mormonism.
@@jenben5alive458 yes, I am sure it is a big improvement over Joseph. The difference with a woman prophetess is likely a big improvement over a male. Yes, as SDAs we were never taught not to trust the Bible, in fact we were taught that EGW never contradicted the Bible, but brought light to it.
Dale Ratlaff,exSDA.pastor,The Cultic Doctrines of Seventh Day Adventist,Sabbath Rest in Christ
Great caring brother in his 80s now
John my dad (Hartman Rector Jr)’s birthday is the same as yours! August 20th🎉 HAPPY BIRTHDAY ❤
Loved this podcast!!!❤
One of my BYU-I professors said BYU-Idaho is less of a discipleship preparatory program, and more of a pharisaical finishing school.
John you swore! I don't think I have heard you do that in one of your podcasts...is it rare?
Also enjoyed RFM and his story. More RFM! I happened to be listening to his first episodes just this week before I knew about this new one, so it was great timing.
I am grateful for Carah and Gerardo participating in these interviews and leading them more in the future. I think having two "hosts" makes things a bit less awkward, more natural/comforting, and less jarring, particularly in interviews that discuss more about sexuality and intimacy. It just feels like it creates a safer space, and I am happy to see Mormon Stories investing in that direction!
Cool video, thanks for making it!
Fantastic episode!!
For a religious text, contradictions and ambiguities are a feature, not a bug.
Happy birthday John! 🎂
I vote yes for a Part 2
RFM: I’d like to keep the under 3 hours
JD: You’re adorable
Where can I find RFM's old apologetics lessons? He mentions that he posted them somewhere.
Talking about Jesus Christ Superstar, I remember being told by our leaders and teachers to absolutely stay away from that movie. Because of this, I made sure I went to the movie. It blew out of the water any of the music and the lessons I had ever heard in church. Problem was that I couldn’t enjoy it due to the guilt I was feeling. That’s what the Mormon church does. It makes it impossible to enjoy, or be inspired by anything outside of the approved curriculum.