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A dull chain also creates powdered wood instead of chunks which quickly clogs the air filter and creates a mud like substance with the bar oil that clogs the bar oil hole and clutch drum.
I know this all too well. I'm BAD about running my saws with dull chains. I've recently learned how to sharpen chains using a file, so I don't have that powdery dust problem anymore. Also hard woods (like oaks, for example) are HELL on chains, as they're SUPER dense and hard to cut through, even with a resharpened chain (or even a new chain out of the package for that matter).
Great job Steve. However, I think the bigger factor to mention is the time it takes to cut through the logs. It took 4.3 times (23 sec vs 99 sec) longer with the dull chain. That is using up the life of the saw and its components 4.3 faster to make the same number of cuts than with the sharp chain. That is without considering any additional effects resulting from the higher temps. I'm sure the saws run hotter than that with a sharp chain in the summertime in the lower latitudes so I doubt you are damaging the engine with extra heat alone. Additionally with the dull chain, you are using that much more fuel and oil for the same number of cuts. Keep up the great work.
The bar & chain are also hotter with dull cutters, there's more wear on everything including the operator, it takes longer, it's more fatiguing, fuel burn is increased and it's less safe.
Just a suggestion, Steve..... Perhaps a video on cleaning the fan, fan housing and cooling fins with compressed air. In my shop, I see lots of saws come in that are having trouble staying cool because of sawdust accumulation in the cooling system.
Hi Steve. Good video. Not really 27% though. You need to use absolute temperatures for that calculation. This because zero C and 0F are just arbitrary numbers. So closer to 8 or 9% on the absolute scale. Still significant. If you do end up measuring the bar, need to keep the sensor close. Those devices “see” a cone and average the temperature over the area. Keeping it close keeps it tight and more accurate. I m subscribing tonight. You teach me about small engines and I will try to back up your science. Cheers buddy!
Hey Steve.. it's probably only hotter with the dull chain as the engine is running for 3 times as long. It's a weak mixture that kills a 2 stroke engine and this is virtually always manifest at the exhaust port or the part of the piston that is exposed to the exhaust window as the exhaust gas temperature will get so hot it can cause the piston or cylinder to expand so much it can cause a seize...
Your right to ask for a chain temp. I have seen people cutting with a dull chain and there be blue smoke pouring out of the cut. Lucky they don't start a fire.
The temperature increase by itself isn't enough to damage the saw, especially in the fall/winter/spring. But run that same dull chain in August, with some old ethanol fuel and a plugged air filter and it is enough to damage a saw. At the shop we see a noticeable increase in seized saws as the weather hits 90 degrees in the summer.
Here in the hotter parts of Australia the mechanic told me to always have a sharp chain and run your fuel to oil mixture at 25:1 the only way to protect against hot weather
Yeah, one thing for sure, my chainsaw's temperature might go up 27%, but my personal temperature will definitely go up higher than 27%. Will rpobably need a couple of'TWO WOLVES' to bring it down...
Very Cool Video about heat. I am with you about lower heat has got to be better for the saw and as someone else also mentioned a sharp chain is faster putting less run time on the engine. I am, like you curious by nature so you can imagine how much I always enjoy your videos. Tonight while enjoying a Narragansett beer on my porch.
I purchased an IR temperature gauge and I have found many uses for it that I never even thought about prior to owning one. Mine is a Milwaukee but the same basic tool. As for the test and the temps measured, the interior temps would be considerably higher in the cylinder, pistons, and rings. It could make an even bigger difference in the summer with hundred degree ambient air temps. The flywheel fan cooling can only do so much for any given RPM and load. So a scored cylinder or broken rings are possible with higher temps. In addition to the additional load on the rest of the saw and operator. On another note though, anybody running a chainsaw with a poorly maintained chain is most likely not going to care for the rest of the saw either. For example, bar oil, fuel mixture, debris, muffler, spark arrestor, etc all need routine maintenance for the saw to perform correctly. Chain and bar maintenance are just part of it. Poor maintenance of a saw will shorten the life of the saw.
Just a thought, maybe compare the temperature after using both chains for the same amount of time, instead of number of cuts. Obviously the sharper chain ran for much less time than the dull chain so maybe the temp difference would be less significant if they ran full throttle for the same amount of time...? I've recently found the channel and have quickly become a fan. Thanks for all the great insight!
Hey Steve- this is such a great explanation, well done! Watched a lot of videos on this topic, and yours is the most hands on and user friendly, especially for a newb. Enjoy the beer, and thank you! Keep up the great work
One of the first advice I give when cutting, keep chain off the ground, you’ll know when it starts getting dull throwing powder... nothing good comes out of that, heat fatigue, learn to keep that saw sharp
I have a chainsaw which need the chain sharpened now, but two others which I am having trouble cranking. The two which won't start are gas powered saws which just came from the repair shop not long ago and I could not get them cranked at home. The one which runs is a battery powered saw and it works fine for me. I also have a fourth saw which now won't crank, but it is very old and I am not financially able to take it in right now.
My question would be what the increase in temperature does to the oil viscosity. If it affects that then it could damage the engine. You may want to check into that. You may also think about what might warp, rather than actually "melt". Metal will warp before it melts. Certainly, if the piston or rings warp or disfigure that will cause issues. Just some thoughts. NIce video bud!
Hey Steve good video on engine temperature I never gave it much thought, but it might be more of an issue during hot summer temps rather than winter I would guess, I’m gonna sit and ponder that with a can of cold Oconto premium beer jeps dog out
Don't forget with the added temp in the cylinder and piston the hotter the fuel and oil mixture and as oil gets hotter it loses its lubrication which will cause the piston rings to damage the cylinder wall. That's why in liquid cooled engines your engine fan cuts in at about 205 Degrees F and cools every thing down and when the temp hits about 210 warning lights and alarms are activated
Hey Steve, I’m cutting dove tail joints for my log cabin and I only have a chisel chain. It’s sharp and cuts good against the grain however cutting with the grain it sucks. Q: can you sharpen a normal chain to 10 degrees and get by or should I get a ripping chain. Thanks
Seems like the higher temps wouldn't directly affect the aluminum (metals stop acting as stiff at around 40 percent of the melting point). But it may affect nearby plastic parts and possibly drop the viscosity and or break down the engine oil and other nearby greased etc a little faster, which could make a difference to the wear of the metal and cause other problems.
Greetings Steve. I've been watching a lot of your videos lately and have found them very helpful. Thank you. To this one, I noticed the Stihl sharpener on your bench and was hoping you would have continued your experiment by quickly sharpening that dull chain then running the test again. Please ignore if this has already been addressed in the comments or other videos. Have a great day.
it seems that the most damage would be to the bar by having to push down hard on the saw , the friction it seems would put alot of wear on the bottom part of the bar and the the inside surface of the chain where it rides on the bar
What temp does bar oil start to smoke? I found gear oil will flash over at 375-580*F and motor oil 425-503. I've cut for power in the summer with a heat factor of 126*F.When I'd shut the saw off to refill it'd be smoking because of the bar oil and oil coated sawdust stuck to the saw.I'd be pretty sure it's over 286*F.Possibly over 325 Cutting with a dull chain is all around harder on a saw hands down,as is any machine like a tablesaw,mitersaw,bandsaw with a dull blade or drill with dull bits.
Hello Steve, Firstly, I KNEW NOTHING about chainsaws. That being said, my son gave me a 34CC 16" Poulan that had nothing wrong with it. Told me to do whatever I wanted to do with it. I scrap stuff ocassionally ! My neighbor had just had a Mulberry tree removed, minus the stump (HUGE) ! I took the chainsaw over to his house. I started cutting with it immediately after startup. Trying like hell anyways. The stump and roots were naturally wet, as it was a live tree. I laid into that sucker and forced the Bejesus out of it.I am the type of guy that NOTHING gets in my way. I was into it for about 45 minutes and smoke rolled so heavily from the saw that you could not see. Mind you, I DID have the corrct fuel mixture. I know now, that the chain was dull, by time I had finished. Upon trying to use it after that episode with a brand new chain; it ran erratically. I checked out all of your videos, so I am well-informed now. I tried retuning, replacing fuel lines/fuel filter air filter, carburetor and gasket. Nothing worked. Had good compression from cold. Decided to pull muffler. Exhaust side piston galled and scored badly. Ring NOT seized up. Intake side looked like new. Muffler removal is the FIRST thing a fella oughta try. Just have a look see through the port. I wanted to know just what happened. I am the curious sort. Just saw your video on doing what I just did. Synopsis ! Saw burned up because of the excessive heat and dull chain. I was of thought that you can't hurt a chainsaw from using it to that extreme because you are running it at full bore anyways. I just wanted to answer your question of not knowing if dull chain and overheating will damage saw. WIPEOUT ! Yes it WILL. Thanks for all the great videos that you make.
Yes. The dull chain was definitely hard to watch. That poor saw working so hard and spitting out all that dust! Oh well. All in the name of science :-) the Heat has never been my main concern about cutting with a dull chain. Just the massive wear and tear on everything not to mention all the extra fuel burn, time spent and frustration. Point is DULL CHAIN SUCKS!!!! Thanks for the vidja buds!
Interesting. My train of thought goes to what's happening at the clutch. With the dull chain the saw bogged out and the chain stopped a couple times. I wonder how hot that clutch must get since there must be a lot more slip in the clutch with a dull chain.
@Deon Denis What kind of electric saw do you have and what size trees are you cutting? Trimming limbs, or cutting down bigger trees? I've been using electric saws, but, found that it's dramatically easier with a gas powered saw. I've been using Remington saws. The biggest one is a 12 amp. It's a much bigger chore doing anything more than cutting small trees and limbs. Then again, I have generally been pretty horrible about keeping the chains sharp. So, that's probably part of it. But, even with a sharp chain, there is a significant difference compared to my Stihl MS 170 saw.
Steve, the melting point of aluminum is 1200*F, but I think you must consider the breakdown temperature of the oil. I'm not sure what this temp would be but I'm certain that higher temps lead to the oil breaking down and ruining a good piece of equipment.
I recently bought a chainsaw and it had a dull blade. Luckily had another chain...i have been trying to sharpen it for a while . It doesn't seem to be sharp. Ill have to find a couple more logs to find how i did
I found a log and tested the chain. It did a little better. I ended up using another chain and it performed well. I would have to find someone to examine the chain to get his opinion on it. It seems rather sketchy overall
Get used to look at the chips while sawing if they are small in size your chain need attention. Good size chips is what you want to see. Just pay attention and you will catch on quickly...Cheers
The situation where a dull saw could damage an engine is capping a stump in the summer if your chain dulls and you keep going the compression button plastic melts and you lose power to much hot exhaust for the saw to breathe
Wondering if that 20% heat increase is enough to damage the main seals “overtime” I’m wondering if it may not “damage the engine” but rather spoil some critical components. Causing you to rebuild it.
How much the lubrication decreases with temperature may be an issue. It seems likely that increased load on the motor will increase the wear on the motor.
Hey Steve just found your Page and am digging itx! Need help on a Homelite 42cc UT10680A i want to sharpen the chain after seeing your video but haven't been able to find on google the 1.size file and the 2.degree thats needed..please help. Chris
I likes the video but you cut with the new chain first presumably from a cold start. The engine temp may well have risen anyway for the second cut even with the new chain. Needed to do a third cut with the new chain (after the old one) see if the temp dropped back down and even a fourth with the old chain to see if it went up again. OR....Done the first cut with the old chain. It does seem logical that the harder the engine is working (old chain) the hotter it will get but not proved conclusively in the vid. I do enjoy your videos though Steve.
Admittedly, I'm a little late to this discussion, but I would be worried about detonation due to the hotter temps. I'm not sure how common detonation is in 2 smoke engines, Steve?
Awesome video steve (as always!!!) I've been working my way through ALL of your videos (excepting lawnmowers actually, they're not relevant to me) and I've finally got the chutzpah to say/suggest something- you should do a/some videos on super-basics, I am loving everything there is to learn here but I expect that there are others, like myself, who have no background and, while learning piece-meal like this is incredibly useful in a practical sense, I find that I've still got the thought "gotta find a non-Steve's chainsaw video, and carbeurator-in-general videos, so you can understand HOW they work & WHY they're made that way", for instance I'm aware of stoichometric ratio and gas/air/pressure but I still don't get precisely how a 2-stroke generates the spin to the axle (or transmits it to the axle shaft), or how a carburator functions, so will be blindly googling 'youtube+' for those topics to find an unknown presenter, would be epic to see 10-20min videos by you explaining just how a chainsaw is made(not production-things but *why* the parts are used & how they work together), or how a carburator works in-general, kinda "motor theory" stuff instead of your typical (uber helpful!!!) how-to, specific-issue type vid! I imagine many others like me would benefit greatly from these, am guessing >50% of your routine viewers couldn't put together a good answer if asked "how does a carburator help make the engine run?", at least not past "it gives it fuel+air" which is a poor understanding IMO!
Running a dull chain the most obvious issues are difficulty cutting, fuel consumption and chain stretch, increasing the hazards associated with a loose chain, as well as reaching the point of replacement sooner because the chains integrity is compromised from being to worn. Less obvious, your wearing out your bar and sprocket quicker, as well as the engine. If your bar is worn, you won't be making straight cuts even with a new chain. i don't know how much the sprocket affects the cutting, but eventually it won't hold the chain and you won't be able to cut. honestly, you can cut with a dull chain for a long time without noticing any effects on the engine, at least in my experience. The bar and chain stretch, along with the issues that causes in the cut are my main reasons for keeping my chain sharp and properly tensioned. i do not enjoy fighting my saw.
i know this is an old thread, but, . It occurs to be that most two stroke engine failures are lubricant related. Either the the lubricant fails to be distributed or the lubricant over heats and fails. With every new charge cycle more lubricant is supplied to the crank case, with every combustion cycle lubricant is burned off. . Not only that, a very large part of the cooling of two strokes is by the air flowing thru the motor not around it. Cool air, fuel and lubricant is drawn into the motor with every induction stroke, this accounts for almost all the cooling of the piston. Hot air leaves the motor with every exhaust stroke, the faster the exhaust leaves the combustion chamber the less heat is transfered to the piston and the cylinder walls. In fact a free flowing exhaust can reduce both engine and exhaust temperatutre . All two stroke engines operate on the verge of destruction, particularly the high performance ones. They do not tolerate being laboured and they run best at the highest reasonsble RPM. Note that most piston and ring failures on two strokes are near the exhaust port, where the temperature is the highest. My assertion is that this is a lubricant failure, either lack of supply or excessive temperature. Think on this and you will find lubricant failure has a role to play in most two stroke failures. If you want to consider temperature issues with two stroke motors, exhaust gas temperature ( muffler temperature will be close enough) will be a far more accurate indicator than the cylinder block.
Steve, why do fuel lines on all my weedwackers deteriorate, sometimes in the fuel tanks & sometimes between the tank & carb? I've replaced some of them with fish tank filter pipe & even windscreen washer pipe it's mostly cheaper gear I have, ryobi & the like, I don't do enough work to buy stihl or huski, is it just cheap rubber or designed to fail? I'm having a Guinness on this glorious Friday night 😀❤️👍
Dusk thanks for replying I'm in Scotland we don't know much about ethanol in fuel etc we just buy it from the pump, I'm baffled as to why fish tank air pipe outlasts the original pipes? I bought a new ryobi 4stroke weedwacker last year & I've just had to replace the pipes they were completely rotted inside the tank but ok between the tank & carb? Another 2stroke ryobi was the opposite, good inside the tank but rotten between the tank & carb lol. Like I said im baffled 👍
No problem 😉. Since you live in Scotland almost all the regular 95 (RON) Octane is a 5-15% ethanol, 85-95% petrol blend. That is because of EU regulations. It shouldn't be high enough to eat away the pipes that quick though. Because if it where, older cars wouldn't be able to run another year without a complete fuel system (and maybe engine) overhaul. If you buy your fuel, just buy the regular stuff when available. Try to avoid special brand related super-power or ultra-mileage fuels, it is possible they contain a higher amount of ethanol or other alcohols. I think the fish tank air pipes are made from a polyester variant and not a rubber like material. That could explain their longevity. Furthermore, from what I know, Ryobi tends to make pretty okay stuff. I don't think those pipes are designed to fail, I can't think of any reasonable reason to design them that way.
Right on Dusk, I have some ryobi stuff that simply shouldn't still be running, like 5 year old & ive worked them hard! Apart from replacing the fuel lines??? 💪❤️👍
How do you know that it is accurate? My infrared thermometer is at least 10 degrees off sometimes when measured against thermometers of a known value. I'm going to get a Fluke with two LEDs.
Stands to reason, working the engine longer to do the same cutting and requiring more horsepower...same goes for the operator,LOL. Probably would cause higher amounts of the 12/16 ounce highly portable "coolant".......??? (for the operator). Good video Steve, very scientifically informative.
Hi steve hoe r u?To begin with today i used my ms 150 tc to trim a few live trees.suddedly something happened to my chain it was hardly moving and heard a strange noise inside the bell.i changed to a new chain and all work perfect.after i put the old chain in a cup of oil it started working perfect again.my question is this.Does these small chains 1.1 need special use,are they sensitive because it has happened to me twice.the chainsaw by the way is fantastic.what is your opinion.thank u in advance!!!!!!!!
Damn I wonder if this is what the previous owner of the MS360 Pro I just bought had done to the saw. He had no working muffler on it and after only a handful of cuts it stopped working, went to Stihl and they said the Piston and Cylinder were scored and its not worth fixing. Damn I really wanted this saw to work, got some big ass logs in my driveway to get rid of and needed the 24" bar on this saw. Any suggestions on aftermarket piston and cylinders for this saw at all?
That was painful to watch, the dull chain cutting. But shouldn't you engage the chain brake when you're not cutting and letting the saw idle ? Like the channel, learning some usefull stuff.
I always try to touch up the chain after every tank of fuel. Usually 3 to 4 strokes from my 2 in 1 file. Now that I am getting older, I let my boys do the cutting and I do the maintenance.
A dull chain will melt your Saw. Especially if it is a cheap one with plastic everywhere except the pestent, cylinder and the exhaust port. I did this with my garden saw sadly. That was when I went online and educated myself on sharpening the chain, and maintenance of my machines. Costly mistake. But educating.
Using a dull blade just puts more unnecessary stress to you, your machine and your wallet!!! So EDUCATE yourself to Steve's video on saw blade sharpening and ENLIGHTEN yourself on what I believe IS a basic college 101 skill EVERY saw owner should know [I'm pretty certain but not for sure--unless I get a reply--Steve would attest to that statement as well!]. It's just makes as much sense as using a sharp knife compared to a dull knife--using a dull knife is DANGEROUS in many ways than just one.😉
Just to be pedantic, I don't think it's a 27% increase. Not sure if you were using Celsius or Fahrenheit to do your calculation, but both have arbitrary starting points. Convert to Kelvin and the increase is much lower.
well here's my take - you are testing the external temp which heat soaks from the inside out. hard to say what the actual combustion temp is. also one of the factors is the oil being used. two strokes lube by the oil mixed with the gas. how far will the oil protect from the heat? when the oil breaks down it looses its lubricity and friction will compound the heat. short term i doubt it will hurt long term it will shorten the life of the saw. as this video points out use good oil maintain the saw and keep the chain sharp. how was that two wolves? never heard of it
Steve,heat shortens the life on anything,I built tranys for CAT,for 38 yrs,plus car tranys on the side,why do they install coolers on stuff ,,to help out on longevity,great videos,Crip in Ohio
Click here for an infrared thermometer--- amzn.to/3bBDjeW
Click here for my website--- www.stevessmallenginesaloon.com/
Click here for my Parts and Tools Store---- www.amazon.com/shop/stevessmallenginesaloon
Watching Steve literally makes me smile. Especially the outtro with the drink of beer and "Steve out." It's impossible not to love this guy.
WOW! Thank You...
good video once again, steve. I give you extra credit for being merciful to your southern neighbours and show the temps in Fahrenheit as well
LOL, I knew that was important! I love Americans....
Oy Crikey!! We are his neighbors, not neighbours!!!
HA!
A dull chain also creates powdered wood instead of chunks which quickly clogs the air filter and creates a mud like substance with the bar oil that clogs the bar oil hole and clutch drum.
I know this all too well. I'm BAD about running my saws with dull chains. I've recently learned how to sharpen chains using a file, so I don't have that powdery dust problem anymore. Also hard woods (like oaks, for example) are HELL on chains, as they're SUPER dense and hard to cut through, even with a resharpened chain (or even a new chain out of the package for that matter).
Great job Steve. However, I think the bigger factor to mention is the time it takes to cut through the logs. It took 4.3 times (23 sec vs 99 sec) longer with the dull chain. That is using up the life of the saw and its components 4.3 faster to make the same number of cuts than with the sharp chain. That is without considering any additional effects resulting from the higher temps. I'm sure the saws run hotter than that with a sharp chain in the summertime in the lower latitudes so I doubt you are damaging the engine with extra heat alone. Additionally with the dull chain, you are using that much more fuel and oil for the same number of cuts. Keep up the great work.
The bar & chain are also hotter with dull cutters, there's more wear on everything including the operator, it takes longer, it's more fatiguing, fuel burn is increased and it's less safe.
Just a suggestion, Steve..... Perhaps a video on cleaning the fan, fan housing and cooling fins with compressed air. In my shop, I see lots of saws come in that are having trouble staying cool because of sawdust accumulation in the cooling system.
That is quite a difference. Thanks for the show. We are having one of our 2 days of rain here in the New Mexico high desert. 65 degrees F burr
Hi Steve. Good video. Not really 27% though. You need to use absolute temperatures for that calculation. This because zero C and 0F are just arbitrary numbers. So closer to 8 or 9% on the absolute scale. Still significant. If you do end up measuring the bar, need to keep the sensor close. Those devices “see” a cone and average the temperature over the area. Keeping it close keeps it tight and more accurate. I m subscribing tonight. You teach me about small engines and I will try to back up your science. Cheers buddy!
Hey Steve.. it's probably only hotter with the dull chain as the engine is running for 3 times as long. It's a weak mixture that kills a 2 stroke engine and this is virtually always manifest at the exhaust port or the part of the piston that is exposed to the exhaust window as the exhaust gas temperature will get so hot it can cause the piston or cylinder to expand so much it can cause a seize...
Awesome Steve do it again and check temperature of chain and bar edge 👍
Right on! Its on my list....
Your right to ask for a chain temp. I have seen people cutting with a dull chain and there be blue smoke pouring out of the cut. Lucky they don't start a fire.
@OBAMFSpike amen brother
The temperature increase by itself isn't enough to damage the saw, especially in the fall/winter/spring.
But run that same dull chain in August, with some old ethanol fuel and a plugged air filter and it is enough to damage a saw.
At the shop we see a noticeable increase in seized saws as the weather hits 90 degrees in the summer.
Interesting. Thank You...
Here in the hotter parts of Australia the mechanic told me to always have a sharp chain and run your fuel to oil mixture at 25:1 the only way to protect against hot weather
@@jw-vx8im How will less oil in fuel protect against hot weather?
@@PencilProper lubrication like when it's 40c lubrication is your friend
@@jw-vx8im but 25:1 is less lube than 50:1.... I have always run 50:1 in my saws in temps close to 40 with no problems.....
Only guy I've seen doing any valid small engine videos
Thank You...
It was mighty nice you’d share it with us!
Yeah, one thing for sure, my chainsaw's temperature might go up 27%, but my personal temperature will definitely go up higher than 27%. Will rpobably need a couple of'TWO WOLVES' to bring it down...
Plus it's bad for your engine, the one in your chest that is.
Very Cool Video about heat. I am with you about lower heat has got to be better for the saw and as someone else also mentioned a sharp chain is faster putting less run time on the engine. I am, like you curious by nature so you can imagine how much I always enjoy your videos. Tonight while enjoying a Narragansett beer on my porch.
Right on Gerry!
As a European, I really appreciate you displaying the temperatures both in Fahrenheit and Celsius scales. Kind regards from Poland.
Thank You...
Thanks Steve another good advice for the Chainsaw and dull chain
You're Welcome...
I purchased an IR temperature gauge and I have found many uses for it that I never even thought about prior to owning one. Mine is a Milwaukee but the same basic tool.
As for the test and the temps measured, the interior temps would be considerably higher in the cylinder, pistons, and rings. It could make an even bigger difference in the summer with hundred degree ambient air temps. The flywheel fan cooling can only do so much for any given RPM and load. So a scored cylinder or broken rings are possible with higher temps. In addition to the additional load on the rest of the saw and operator.
On another note though, anybody running a chainsaw with a poorly maintained chain is most likely not going to care for the rest of the saw either. For example, bar oil, fuel mixture, debris, muffler, spark arrestor, etc all need routine maintenance for the saw to perform correctly. Chain and bar maintenance are just part of it. Poor maintenance of a saw will shorten the life of the saw.
Just a thought, maybe compare the temperature after using both chains for the same amount of time, instead of number of cuts. Obviously the sharper chain ran for much less time than the dull chain so maybe the temp difference would be less significant if they ran full throttle for the same amount of time...? I've recently found the channel and have quickly become a fan. Thanks for all the great insight!
Right on ....
Yes it makes sense that the temperature rise is due directly to the runtime as much as anything else
Hey Steve- this is such a great explanation, well done! Watched a lot of videos on this topic, and yours is the most hands on and user friendly, especially for a newb. Enjoy the beer, and thank you! Keep up the great work
Awesome, thank you!
Thank you Steve, you are a mountain of information and a great teacher. Peace!
You're Welcome...and Thank You...
One of the first advice I give when cutting, keep chain off the ground, you’ll know when it starts getting dull throwing powder... nothing good comes out of that, heat fatigue, learn to keep that saw sharp
I have a chainsaw which need the chain sharpened now, but two others which I am having trouble cranking. The two which won't start are gas powered saws which just came from the repair shop not long ago and I could not get them cranked at home. The one which runs is a battery powered saw and it works fine for me. I also have a fourth saw which now won't crank, but it is very old and I am not financially able to take it in right now.
That was very interesting.
Like i commented on another of your videos: I love when you do science! Keep up the thoroughness of it, please.
Right on Buddy...
How is the best way or what’s the best method to sharpen your chain rakers??
My question would be what the increase in temperature does to the oil viscosity. If it affects that then it could damage the engine. You may want to check into that. You may also think about what might warp, rather than actually "melt". Metal will warp before it melts. Certainly, if the piston or rings warp or disfigure that will cause issues. Just some thoughts. NIce video bud!
Awesome comment! Thanks Buddy...
It is a lot more work. How does it affect the life of the bar, chain, and sprocket? Thank you so much for all you do. I love your video's.💀✌️
I use that Still chain sharpener every other tank. Easy to do and keeps chain sharp.
Hey Steve good video on engine temperature I never gave it much thought, but it might be more of an issue during hot summer temps rather than winter I would guess, I’m gonna sit and ponder that with a can of cold Oconto premium beer jeps dog out
Don't forget with the added temp in the cylinder and piston the hotter the fuel and oil mixture and as oil gets hotter it loses its lubrication which will cause the piston rings to damage the cylinder wall. That's why in liquid cooled engines your engine fan cuts in at about 205 Degrees F and cools every thing down and when the temp hits about 210 warning lights and alarms are activated
Thanks brother great information and useful
Glad you liked it
Hey Steve, I’m cutting dove tail joints for my log cabin and I only have a chisel chain. It’s sharp and cuts good against the grain however cutting with the grain it sucks. Q: can you sharpen a normal chain to 10 degrees and get by or should I get a ripping chain. Thanks
What would the bar temp difference be.
Seems like the higher temps wouldn't directly affect the aluminum (metals stop acting as stiff at around 40 percent of the melting point). But it may affect nearby plastic parts and possibly drop the viscosity and or break down the engine oil and other nearby greased etc a little faster, which could make a difference to the wear of the metal and cause other problems.
Greetings Steve. I've been watching a lot of your videos lately and have found them very helpful. Thank you.
To this one, I noticed the Stihl sharpener on your bench and was hoping you would have continued your experiment by quickly sharpening that dull chain then running the test again. Please ignore if this has already been addressed in the comments or other videos. Have a great day.
it seems that the most damage would be to the bar by having to push down hard on the saw , the friction it seems would put alot of wear on the bottom part of the bar and the the inside surface of the chain where it rides on the bar
Hey Steve! Do you have any suggestions for someone like me who is trying to start up a small engine repair shop. Any suggestions would be appreciated.
I would be interested in that video too
would also the type of wood being cut effect the readings, i.e. over here we gut Redgum a little bit harder than pine.
yeah and try and pickup you beer without your thumb around it
What temp does bar oil start to smoke? I found gear oil will flash over at 375-580*F and motor oil 425-503.
I've cut for power in the summer with a heat factor of 126*F.When I'd shut the saw off to refill it'd be smoking because of the bar oil and oil coated sawdust stuck to the saw.I'd be pretty sure it's over 286*F.Possibly over 325
Cutting with a dull chain is all around harder on a saw hands down,as is any machine like a tablesaw,mitersaw,bandsaw with a dull blade or drill with dull bits.
Keep it up Steve! Awesome idea!
Thanks! Will do!
The more I watch your videos the more I learn how to do things that are completely normal
Glad you did the test. Its so much harder to cut with a dull chain.
Right on ...
Thats a cool side by side comparison. I would think running anything on the cooler side is always better. Good vid buddy 👍👍
Thank You...
Good show thanks
Our pleasure!
Hello Steve,
Firstly, I KNEW NOTHING about chainsaws. That being said, my son gave me a 34CC 16" Poulan that had nothing wrong with it. Told me to do whatever I wanted to do with it. I scrap stuff ocassionally ! My neighbor had just had a Mulberry tree removed, minus the stump (HUGE) ! I took the chainsaw over to his house. I started cutting with it immediately after startup. Trying like hell anyways. The stump and roots were naturally wet, as it was a live tree. I laid into that sucker and forced the Bejesus out of it.I am the type of guy that NOTHING gets in my way. I was into it for about 45 minutes and smoke rolled so heavily from the saw that you could not see. Mind you, I DID have the corrct fuel mixture. I know now, that the chain was dull, by time I had finished. Upon trying to use it after that episode with a brand new chain; it ran erratically. I checked out all of your videos, so I am well-informed now. I tried retuning, replacing fuel lines/fuel filter air filter, carburetor and gasket. Nothing worked. Had good compression from cold. Decided to pull muffler. Exhaust side piston galled and scored badly. Ring NOT seized up. Intake side looked like new. Muffler removal is the FIRST thing a fella oughta try. Just have a look see through the port. I wanted to know just what happened. I am the curious sort. Just saw your video on doing what I just did. Synopsis ! Saw burned up because of the excessive heat and dull chain. I was of thought that you can't hurt a chainsaw from using it to that extreme because you are running it at full bore anyways. I just wanted to answer your question of not knowing if dull chain and overheating will damage saw. WIPEOUT ! Yes it WILL. Thanks for all the great videos that you make.
Thanks for sharing!
Our pleasure!
Yes. The dull chain was definitely hard to watch. That poor saw working so hard and spitting out all that dust! Oh well. All in the name of science :-) the Heat has never been my main concern about cutting with a dull chain. Just the massive wear and tear on everything not to mention all the extra fuel burn, time spent and frustration.
Point is DULL CHAIN SUCKS!!!! Thanks for the vidja buds!
You're Welcome...
Excellent VIDEO. Great job.
Thank You...
Interesting. My train of thought goes to what's happening at the clutch. With the dull chain the saw bogged out and the chain stopped a couple times. I wonder how hot that clutch must get since there must be a lot more slip in the clutch with a dull chain.
Sharp chain = more work in less time, with less fuel and less effort.
Amen to that brother...
Less fatigue also, start trying to push increasing your effort
@Deon Denis What kind of electric saw do you have and what size trees are you cutting? Trimming limbs, or cutting down bigger trees? I've been using electric saws, but, found that it's dramatically easier with a gas powered saw. I've been using Remington saws. The biggest one is a 12 amp. It's a much bigger chore doing anything more than cutting small trees and limbs. Then again, I have generally been pretty horrible about keeping the chains sharp. So, that's probably part of it. But, even with a sharp chain, there is a significant difference compared to my Stihl MS 170 saw.
Less heat build up.
Steve, the melting point of aluminum is 1200*F, but I think you must consider the breakdown temperature of the oil. I'm not sure what this temp would be but I'm certain that higher temps lead to the oil breaking down and ruining a good piece of equipment.
Another excellent video. Thanks!
My pleasure!
I recently bought a chainsaw and it had a dull blade. Luckily had another chain...i have been trying to sharpen it for a while . It doesn't seem to be sharp. Ill have to find a couple more logs to find how i did
I found a log and tested the chain. It did a little better. I ended up using another chain and it performed well. I would have to find someone to examine the chain to get his opinion on it. It seems rather sketchy overall
I meant it had a dull chain
Where can I buy a oil pump for a stihl 041 farm boss
Get used to look at the chips while sawing if they are small in size your chain need attention. Good size chips is what you want to see. Just pay attention and you will catch on quickly...Cheers
Yup, I have that exact tip in my sharpening video...
If your chain starts to smoke, it time to sharpen your chain or you will stretch your chain and shorten its life.
The situation where a dull saw could damage an engine is capping a stump in the summer if your chain dulls and you keep going the compression button plastic melts and you lose power to much hot exhaust for the saw to breathe
Looove your channel - I think you're great.
Please get a 4k video camera and upload in 1080p.
Workin on it! Thank You...
Interesting video Steve and how true too. Thanks for sharing.👍
You're Welcome...
Wondering if that 20% heat increase is enough to damage the main seals “overtime” I’m wondering if it may not “damage the engine” but rather spoil some critical components. Causing you to rebuild it.
How much the lubrication decreases with temperature may be an issue.
It seems likely that increased load on the motor will increase the wear on the motor.
I do know (from experience cough cough) that a dull chain will get hotter on toast your bar.
Hey Steve just found your Page and am digging itx! Need help on a Homelite 42cc UT10680A i want to sharpen the chain after seeing your video but haven't been able to find on google the 1.size file and the 2.degree thats needed..please help. Chris
I also have a video on how to sharpen....
Interesting for sure.
hi buddy, i always like yours videos it's help a lots
Glad you like them!
I likes the video but you cut with the new chain first presumably from a cold start. The engine temp may well have risen anyway for the second cut even with the new chain. Needed to do a third cut with the new chain (after the old one) see if the temp dropped back down and even a fourth with the old chain to see if it went up again. OR....Done the first cut with the old chain. It does seem logical that the harder the engine is working (old chain) the hotter it will get but not proved conclusively in the vid. I do enjoy your videos though Steve.
Chain temp def rises. Mine starts smoking when dull n I push it hard
Admittedly, I'm a little late to this discussion, but I would be worried about detonation due to the hotter temps. I'm not sure how common detonation is in 2 smoke engines, Steve?
Awesome video steve (as always!!!) I've been working my way through ALL of your videos (excepting lawnmowers actually, they're not relevant to me) and I've finally got the chutzpah to say/suggest something- you should do a/some videos on super-basics, I am loving everything there is to learn here but I expect that there are others, like myself, who have no background and, while learning piece-meal like this is incredibly useful in a practical sense, I find that I've still got the thought "gotta find a non-Steve's chainsaw video, and carbeurator-in-general videos, so you can understand HOW they work & WHY they're made that way", for instance I'm aware of stoichometric ratio and gas/air/pressure but I still don't get precisely how a 2-stroke generates the spin to the axle (or transmits it to the axle shaft), or how a carburator functions, so will be blindly googling 'youtube+' for those topics to find an unknown presenter, would be epic to see 10-20min videos by you explaining just how a chainsaw is made(not production-things but *why* the parts are used & how they work together), or how a carburator works in-general, kinda "motor theory" stuff instead of your typical (uber helpful!!!) how-to, specific-issue type vid! I imagine many others like me would benefit greatly from these, am guessing >50% of your routine viewers couldn't put together a good answer if asked "how does a carburator help make the engine run?", at least not past "it gives it fuel+air" which is a poor understanding IMO!
Chain can snap, bar can warp due to heat, overheating can cause parts failure inside the engine. May not melt!! But can deform due to overheating
hi Steve great video,what model Stihl is that
Cormac Tracey It is very similar to MS 250.
ms 230
Running a dull chain the most obvious issues are difficulty cutting, fuel consumption and chain stretch, increasing the hazards associated with a loose chain, as well as reaching the point of replacement sooner because the chains integrity is compromised from being to worn.
Less obvious, your wearing out your bar and sprocket quicker, as well as the engine. If your bar is worn, you won't be making straight cuts even with a new chain. i don't know how much the sprocket affects the cutting, but eventually it won't hold the chain and you won't be able to cut.
honestly, you can cut with a dull chain for a long time without noticing any effects on the engine, at least in my experience. The bar and chain stretch, along with the issues that causes in the cut are my main reasons for keeping my chain sharp and properly tensioned. i do not enjoy fighting my saw.
Dull saw chains significantly increase the wear on the bar and drive sprocket.
Agreed!
The bar and chain sure do get hotter.
I think any damage to the engine from increased temperature starts with compromised oil. At modern 50:1 mix that's a little oil doing a lot of work.
i know this is an old thread, but,
.
It occurs to be that most two stroke engine failures are lubricant related.
Either the the lubricant fails to be distributed or the lubricant over heats and fails.
With every new charge cycle more lubricant is supplied to the crank case, with every combustion cycle lubricant is burned off.
.
Not only that, a very large part of the cooling of two strokes is by the air flowing thru the motor not around it.
Cool air, fuel and lubricant is drawn into the motor with every induction stroke, this accounts for almost all the cooling of the piston.
Hot air leaves the motor with every exhaust stroke, the faster the exhaust leaves the combustion chamber the less heat is transfered to the piston and the cylinder walls.
In fact a free flowing exhaust can reduce both engine and exhaust temperatutre
.
All two stroke engines operate on the verge of destruction, particularly the high performance ones.
They do not tolerate being laboured and they run best at the highest reasonsble RPM.
Note that most piston and ring failures on two strokes are near the exhaust port, where the temperature is the highest.
My assertion is that this is a lubricant failure, either lack of supply or excessive temperature.
Think on this and you will find lubricant failure has a role to play in most two stroke failures.
If you want to consider temperature issues with two stroke motors, exhaust gas temperature ( muffler temperature will be close enough) will be a far more accurate indicator than the cylinder block.
The added heat will damage the seals and bearing. This will make play in bearing and cause piston to rub against cylinder.
Steve, why do fuel lines on all my weedwackers deteriorate, sometimes in the fuel tanks & sometimes between the tank & carb? I've replaced some of them with fish tank filter pipe & even windscreen washer pipe it's mostly cheaper gear I have, ryobi & the like, I don't do enough work to buy stihl or huski, is it just cheap rubber or designed to fail? I'm having a Guinness on this glorious Friday night 😀❤️👍
Maybe the fuel you use has too much ethanol blend in. It eats some rubber types, especially older ones.
Dusk thanks for replying I'm in Scotland we don't know much about ethanol in fuel etc we just buy it from the pump, I'm baffled as to why fish tank air pipe outlasts the original pipes? I bought a new ryobi 4stroke weedwacker last year & I've just had to replace the pipes they were completely rotted inside the tank but ok between the tank & carb? Another 2stroke ryobi was the opposite, good inside the tank but rotten between the tank & carb lol. Like I said im baffled 👍
No problem 😉. Since you live in Scotland almost all the regular 95 (RON) Octane is a 5-15% ethanol, 85-95% petrol blend. That is because of EU regulations. It shouldn't be high enough to eat away the pipes that quick though. Because if it where, older cars wouldn't be able to run another year without a complete fuel system (and maybe engine) overhaul. If you buy your fuel, just buy the regular stuff when available. Try to avoid special brand related super-power or ultra-mileage fuels, it is possible they contain a higher amount of ethanol or other alcohols.
I think the fish tank air pipes are made from a polyester variant and not a rubber like material. That could explain their longevity. Furthermore, from what I know, Ryobi tends to make pretty okay stuff. I don't think those pipes are designed to fail, I can't think of any reasonable reason to design them that way.
Right on Dusk, I have some ryobi stuff that simply shouldn't still be running, like 5 year old & ive worked them hard! Apart from replacing the fuel lines??? 💪❤️👍
How do you know that it is accurate? My infrared thermometer is at least 10 degrees off sometimes when measured against thermometers of a known value. I'm going to get a Fluke with two LEDs.
Gale Boetticher was using one in Breaking Bad -look what happened there.....
What I see on the thermometer and wha you say it is seems to be different I may have a looking problem
Stands to reason, working the engine longer to do the same cutting and requiring more horsepower...same goes for the operator,LOL. Probably would cause higher amounts of the 12/16 ounce highly portable "coolant".......??? (for the operator). Good video Steve, very scientifically informative.
Thank You...
Hi steve hoe r u?To begin with today i used my ms 150 tc to trim a few live trees.suddedly something happened to my chain it was hardly moving and heard a strange noise inside the bell.i changed to a new chain and all work perfect.after i put the old chain in a cup of oil it started working perfect again.my question is this.Does these small chains 1.1 need special use,are they sensitive because it has happened to me twice.the chainsaw by the way is fantastic.what is your opinion.thank u in advance!!!!!!!!
Damn I wonder if this is what the previous owner of the MS360 Pro I just bought had done to the saw. He had no working muffler on it and after only a handful of cuts it stopped working, went to Stihl and they said the Piston and Cylinder were scored and its not worth fixing. Damn I really wanted this saw to work, got some big ass logs in my driveway to get rid of and needed the 24" bar on this saw. Any suggestions on aftermarket piston and cylinders for this saw at all?
wsfd4321 yea I think I did get burnt. Certain things I don't mind used but I think stuff like chainsaws I might go new in the future
That was painful to watch, the dull chain cutting. But shouldn't you engage the chain brake when you're not cutting and letting the saw idle ? Like the channel, learning some usefull stuff.
i think it goes down to low quality two stroke oil. as it wouldn't surprise me if a low quality oil loses its lubricity at really high temps
I wonder if a lawn mower would run hotter with dull blades or cutting wet grass. Just a thought, more load = more heat I guess
I always try to touch up the chain after every tank of fuel. Usually 3 to 4 strokes from my 2 in 1 file.
Now that I am getting older, I let my boys do the cutting and I do the maintenance.
By the way get some Coors Light for your beer taste!
Excellent idea. Thank You...
What do you think of muffler modding/ porting?
I absolutely believe it works if done properly because I work at a shop that we do it everyday...
Could you do a video on how to do simple muffler mods?
A dull chain will melt your Saw. Especially if it is a cheap one with plastic everywhere except the pestent, cylinder and the exhaust port. I did this with my garden saw sadly. That was when I went online and educated myself on sharpening the chain, and maintenance of my machines. Costly mistake. But educating.
I’ve melted the plastic cover and chain brake before, probably do to a dull chain
I think it has to do with the oil burning off before its suposed to
Using a dull blade just puts more unnecessary stress to you, your machine and your wallet!!! So EDUCATE yourself to Steve's video on saw blade sharpening and ENLIGHTEN yourself on what I believe IS a basic college 101 skill EVERY saw owner should know [I'm pretty certain but not for sure--unless I get a reply--Steve would attest to that statement as well!]. It's just makes as much sense as using a sharp knife compared to a dull knife--using a dull knife is DANGEROUS in many ways than just one.😉
it puts more drag on it
Just to be pedantic, I don't think it's a 27% increase. Not sure if you were using Celsius or Fahrenheit to do your calculation, but both have arbitrary starting points. Convert to Kelvin and the increase is much lower.
Burns the bar up and burns way more fuel ! Lol y’a brutal watching the dull cut had to fast forward .
well here's my take - you are testing the external temp which heat soaks from the inside out. hard to say what the actual combustion temp is. also one of the factors is the oil being used. two strokes lube by the oil mixed with the gas. how far will the oil protect from the heat? when the oil breaks down it looses its lubricity and friction will compound the heat. short term i doubt it will hurt long term it will shorten the life of the saw. as this video points out use good oil maintain the saw and keep the chain sharp. how was that two wolves? never heard of it
i'm still running my 028avesq i bought in 1985
it should be about bar and clutch temp. not engine.
Steve, my temperature goes up using a bad chain.
Steve,heat shortens the life on anything,I built tranys for CAT,for 38 yrs,plus car tranys on the side,why do they install coolers on stuff ,,to help out on longevity,great videos,Crip in Ohio
+Hey Steve was was wondering if you could help me figure out the age of my Stihl 015Lplease
Sorry Wayne. Even if I typed the serial number into my dealer website, it wont come up anymore....
Steve's Small Engine Saloon that sucks
so how do you date them???
Cutting with the dull chain was brutal to watch.