Bishop Carter Issues Edict for Disaffiliating Churches
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- Опубликовано: 6 ноя 2023
- At the special called conference of the Western North Carolina Annual Conference of The United Methodist Church (held only online), a 17-minute video of Bishop Ken Carter was played to set the tenor of the separation. His tone was mostly warm and pastoral, but near the end he turned paternal and controlling, instructing churches leaving on how they were and were not to act after separation. I haven’t seen anything like this yet and thought it worthy of note. What will happen if churches refuse to obey his commands? What if churches or pastors insist on publicly speaking about what they have experienced to be dysfunction, or even abuse?Also, where do things stand in Western North Carolina? Did any churches get voted down? What does the future look like?
Links:
Bishop Carter’s Full Address (or at least the version I found) - vimeo.com/881210107?fbclid=Iw...
Report on Disaffiliation by Western North Carolina Conference - www.wnccumc.org/november-resu... 
Развлечения
The most peaceful moment I have had in ministry since my ordination was when I hit the send button on the letter to my bishop resigning from my annual conference. Relax Bishop Carder I am at peace and you or the UMC can’t steal it. My peace comes from the Prince of Peace.
"...My peace comes from the Prince of Peace...".
Ahhh... So does any "...ordination..."... No need for any human-contrived religion.
Amen.
People are going to leave even if their church doesn't.
Lifetime Bishops was the biggest mistake the UMC ever made. We left the UMC when our church voted to stay. We love our new Global Methodist church. If you don't look forward to worship each Sunday and don't feel the Holy Spirit when you're there it's time to leave.
“ANY KIND OF BISHOP was the biggest mistake the UMC ever made.”
There , fixed it for you .
And the GMC is falling into the same exact trap . In 30-50 years it will become obvious that they made a massive mistake by keeping the episcopacy in any form .
The average UMC conference changes bishops every 4-8 years anyway so “ lifetime bishops” is not the issue . When I was UMC whenever a new bishop came it was always “ meet the new boss same as the old boss.” Why? Because it was the UNDERLYING STRUCTURE which so many sycophants rely upon curry episcopal favor regardless of who the bishop is .
It’s absurd to think that taking away lifetime episcopacies is going to change things that much . They needed to do away with the episcopacy altogether thus ensuring no underlying structure of people wanting to misuse absolute power will be in place .
This is one big reason why the GMC is doomed for failure in the long term .
They could’ve created a whole new non-dysfunctional church polity -but they were too enamored with a fictional belief that “ going back to how things used to be in the UMC “ will be the panacea . The fact is the UMC was NEVER hitting on much and only got away with their dysfunction because we lived in a modern churched culture 40-50 years ago -and that dysfunction has been exposed in these post-modern times
It's hard for people with power to admit when they no longer have authority. It doesn't matter if said power was ever real or even acknowledged. It's simply pride.
I love when they tell you what you can and cannot do.
while doing bad. 😂
That’s why one of my favorite movie quotes is from the movie “ American Beauty” when the main character, Lester, tells his cheating wife “ YOU don’t get to tell me what to do ever again!”
It’s my mantra after leaving the UMC.
The bishop's use of a threatening tone - and it is - was exceptionally inappropriate. It will have exactly the opposite effect on people's actions.
Excellent summary pastor. As a person who lives in the WNCCUMC, but not a Methodist, I have been following closely what was occurring at Wesley UMC in my former hometown. That church’s membership exceeds the membership of 10+ smaller UMC churches in the area and with one of the largest and most beautiful campuses and facilities of any in the UMC. A number of the members had the will and financial capacity to write a single check on behalf of the church to leave and were determined to make disaffiliation happen to their favor. They have been blessed to receive disaffiliation approval and, as I understand it, will remain independent for some time, though their clergy have joined the GMC. Thank you again for all you do to keep the people aware of what is happening in the Methodist denominations.
Every day there is some UMC official who unwittingly assures me that I made the right decision in leaving and joining the GMC.
These bishops simply can not handle not being able to control everything. It wouldn't surprise me at all if they sue some of the disaffiliated churches when the inevitable occurs and people walk away from the UMC churches to their open doors.
To the little man with the paper in his hand...
Number 1- don't pretend you have any more authority over me when I have rejected your authority.
Number 2- you don't get to tell me who to talk to
Number 3- you don't get to tell me what to talk about
That bishop's "UMC" cadence in his speech cracks me up - they all sound the same, just like the movie stereotypes. The veiled threats remind me of the mob.
I am not a sheep thief but when a sheep comes to the flock I serve it becomes fair game.
They do not feed their sheep. That is why they are leaving.
It is a total disgrace. Our conference votes on the 18th. It can not to happen soon enough.
I have no respect for the bishops. Our conference has been pitiful in how it has handled things.
I'm not a Methodist and I'm not in Western North Carolina, but if I were a UMC layman there with that man as my Bishop the GMC wouldn't need to recruit me, I assure you.
The sheep are being separated. The Bible doesn't need any help in its Words. It says what it says.
The true issue is: The authority of Scripture. To reject the Word of God is to reject Christ Jesus.
'We should keep our elected officials close enough to kick them.' - GK Chesterton. This is a problem in our culture, as it see it, Everywhere. 'Accountability is for Thee, But Not for Me.' In truth some Bishops have been Christlike-servants while others have relished their power and authority as some Popes or Emperors.
A little caution here, best for the 113 to take a close look at their Disaffiliation Agreements to make sure there is no fine print obligations regarding the no recruitment/gag order. Remember, the 113 have rounded third base, but not yet sled into home plate.
Free at last! Free at last! Thank God Almighty free at last!❤❤ I have never been a fan of Bishop Ken Carter.
Bishop Carter was our Bishop in Florida. My husband and I have met him and talked to him. He seemed very nice. He has, evidently, come a long woke way.
It’s also completely hypocritical to say that they’re doing the same. The UMC is absolutely recruiting members from disaffiliated churches, even once they’ve left. Plus as we’ve seen there’s plenty of hatred for disaffiliated churches and even individuals among UMC clergy and lay people.
Light house initiative
".....you are not to recruit". Rigggghhhhhttttt! Good luck with that.
Did he just forbid evangelism?
If I were to move to England from the United States, would I still have to obey all the US Rules after I've moved? Nope, because that isn't the governing body over me anymore.
That should be obvious.
"And we pledge to you the same". So the Lighthouse Church movement of the UMC will NOT be welcomed in the WNCC? They have as a goal advertising and working to invite people from now-disaffiliating churches to leave those churches to go to the nearby UMCs.
So they're already breaking the pledge he makes here- which is the kind of stuff for which we left.
Once I got out of the UMC I realized how crazy it was to have taken people like Carter with any degree of seriousness . These bishops are used to talking in “ Annual Conference speak “ as if everybody on earth somehow sees what they are saying is logical or helpful . This man Carter amazingly actually thinks he is saying something profound when in actuality it is silly to 90% of the world .
And these people think this autocratic nonsense will “ fly” in the post-modern world of the 21st century ??
As Jeff said , now that you have walked all over people for decades now they are supposed to shut up about it? That in itself is evidence that abuse happened . Further , we have the 1st amendment whereby we can always speak our conscience-and here he is acting like some two-bit AC supersedes that inalienable right ?🙄.
I know for a fact that this AC -and probably every AC -has huge problems dealing with people who think differently than they do . They have ALWAYS had that as a huge problem -then it is only totally expected that Carter would say such total nonsense .
These folks like Carter don’t have the ability to “ step outside themselves “ and “ hear themselves talking “ thus having to deal with how silly they sound .
One of my favorite quotes is from John Wooden who always coached his team not to worry about who they are playing but worry about making yourself better and better and that will help you beat the other team more than any scouting report or worrying about the other team ever will . Likewise , if the WNCC of the UMC was such a great place to be then why worry about “ the other team “ and/or whether they are “ stealing people from you ?” If you were as good a “ team” as you like to think you are , people wouldn’t be running and jumping over your barriers like Olympians trying to get away from you , not to mention all the money they pay to get out.
Such silliness from Carter smh .
The arrogance, condescension, and control freak nature of the bishops and the UMC overall are staggering. Their whole attitude amidst his entire power grab is basically them saying, "How dare you low intelligence people disagree with the radicals that have forcefully taken over?"
I don't feel the good Bishop will have to worry about the disaffilated churches stealing their members. There is more than one reason for members to decide for themselves to leave and will be increasingly evident with those who remain with the UMC as the months and years come.
Exactly . Depending on the AC involved , I contend that for every church that has jumped through the hoops to leave , there is at least one other one in their AC who either wants to leave now but doesn’t have the will or resources to or is a church that is a “ slow learner “/ late adopter and 2-5 years down the road will realize that they should’ve left in 2023 too.
The question then will be though - will their AC let them ? Because I’m betting the next GC will make it harder for churches to leave . IMHO they vastly underestimated the number of churches who wanted out in 23 and don’t want to go through that shame again
More "shut up" from the left. The gag order is actually a part of the disaffiliation agreement in N. Georgia, if we get that far.
That is so damning. I feel sorry for the folks left behind who have to pretend as though their leadership is moral.
Our church is in North Georgia. According to pastor Rickman, churches in NC got 90% approval. In June the North Georgia conference approved 2 churches with 54% for one and 52% for the other. We are still very unsure hoe the vote c will go on November 18.
UMC: You aRe NoT To ReaD THe BiBLe FoR iT WiLL eXPoSe uS.
They remind me a lot of J.W.s. Telling people what they can and can’t do and want you indoctrinated with their programming.
There is no reconciliation with Satan.
Maranatha.
If you are told to detach entirely, then you don't get to give orders to what the detached church can or cannot do.
Does heresy bring peace? Quite the opposite. Can heretics dictate terms of leaving to followers of historic Christianity?
Lol! You got to be kidding!!! I'm not drinking the Kool-Aid
Bishop McAlilly said similar things in May at the Tennessee Western Kentucky Annual Conference and I imagine he will say similar things this on November 13. He can take a long walk off a short pier in my opinion.
I'm hopeful that you will be reporting on the North Georgia called conference.
I see more Star Wars parallels with this current crisis within the UMC than the MCU.
Nice.
It is all together sad when brothers are in disagreement, but when the Holy Spirit has left the house one should follow. I am not ot the Methodist choosing but I pray that the better nature of their angels will one day reappear.
Good commentary. UMC did a very poor job of selecting and developing spiritual leaders. This has been going on for decades. Finally reached a point where these poor decisions ended up being bishops and high leadership. I am glad people finally were able to get away. It will take time but the longer it goes the easier this break will be. May God continue to be with you.
Thank you! I'm glad you received me this way. Blessings to you!
The churches that leave will be the ones who will be at peace. The new UMC will be the ones who will ultimately be in turmoil.
Its funny in away... I have some friends in WNC, some go to a UMC church that voted to leave and was approved and paid there dues $$ you might say. Their vote was about 80% to leave that left 20%. I also have some friends that go to a UMC in WNC that wanted to leave, Voted to leave around 75% to 25%. BUT when told what it was going to cost $$ to leave and because the church is very small could not afford the (price tag) $$$. They ultimately decided to stay. GUESS WHAT? These 2 churches were about 4 miles apart and part of a charge. Soooooo, A lot of the folks from the church that stayed UMC. "On their own" moved to the church that left UMC and almost all of the 20% that wanted to stay UMC in the Church, moved over to the other church. It was just a flip flop for the 2 churches..... and everybody is happy they all still get along and talk to each other. These 2 churches are in the country so everyone knows everyone. This Bishop is using some scare tactics and he's losing about 35-40% or more UMC and its a lot of $$$$$ to him and the WNC UMC and UMC as a whole.. That's the bottom line to the biggest % of the high ups in the UMC. They likely could care less about the LGBTQ or authority of Scripture at this point. Take a while to make up or get back that 40%. The same type thing only on a smaller scale happened to the Presbyterian Church USA about 50 Yrs ago when the Presbyterian Church in America split.
So to all the folks that left the UMC. Just worship in Spirit and in Truth and if your church grows👍👍 🙌🙌. The ones at the other churches who wanted to leave, will just naturally congregate to your church and you'll never have to say a word. Or they will leave and just go where the Spirit will feed them. Have a Blessed Day.....
this post took me all day to come up with,,, and please understand it isn't an attack on you,,,, in fact I enjoy your videos (and I still watch them :) )and look forward to the point that the GMC becomes your focus.
So here goes /// Ethics matter. When a pastor leaves a congregation, pastoral ethics requires the pastor to cut all ties with the congregation and the congregation to cut all ties to the pastor. This allows the time of mourning and a new beginning with a new pastor. The old pastor is not allowed to come back to do funerals, or weddings, or to influence the church in any way. As I listened to this bishop this is the concept I heard,,, only applied to a bigger group including pastors and churches leaving.
So,,, please discuss how YOU would apply this as a person that has left a church family and joined another.
I absolutely agree that ethics matter. I, however, think I disagree with the way that UMC practiced ethics around pastoral transitions. I think it adopted a largely clinical approach, with pastors serving as professionals. I just don't really subscribe to the model. I think the relations involved in church family are, by nature, intimate and vulnerable, and artificial attempts to constrain and control that do more harm than good. Rather, the task is to learn to navigate change was mature adults. And when folks refuse to do that, they need to be removed from the body, rather than revising the system in order to accommodate them.
I have had former pastors come back and officiate things because they acknowledge my current role and operate around me. I'm not threatened, and the people are mature enough not to try and turn Cephas against Apollos. In leading the congregation in directions that previous pastors have been opposed to, I have openly spoken of them, their theology, their leadership, because I expect the congregation to behave as adults.
So it isn't that I don't think ethics are important. I do. I just think we adopted a model of pastoral ministry that was dysfunctional and unintentionally caused a lot of phoniness and relational damage. So I anticipated this stuff at the end of my video and said that what we should aspire to is not silence on the topic, but fairness and concern with truth. If it just turns into defensive mudslinging, then that will be quite unfortunate. Yet we should exercise Christian discernment and maturity in speaking the truth in love. I don't do a perfect job at this, but I hope that folks who spend time with me come to understand their job, not to avoid uncomfortable topics, but to speak about them fairly and honestly among Christian company. That's a big undergirding part of what I'm doing here. You're right to highlight the difference in my approach from what became popular in the UMC. I am intentionally and self-consciously different from them in that way.
I don't type this out necessarily to persuade you so much as to explain how my approach isn't as reactive as it might seem. I hope that helps you to listen to me in a way that is helpful to you, even if you don't agree with me.
Whenever we take our eyes off of Jesus...anything can happen.
I wonder. This seems not to be a matter of ‘allowance’ but a matter of respecting the new Pastor. Surely it would be a matter of courtesy to let the former pastor to visit his old church as a member of the laity or even invite him to preach a sermon. None of this should be seen as threatening in any way. As a pastor one must recognize that it is Christ’ church and we are but members of the greater Body. As Paul said, “I pray brothers that their be no division among you.”
Oh, my!
As long as people go to church voluntarily, he can’t put any constraints.
What’s that horrific screaming between 3:05-3:30?
Small church. Studio is adjoining a hallway that children sometimes play in. Their mothers are in the kitchen making multiple meals for their families. The kids are usually pretty good, but sometimes there is screaming.
Y'all gotta good scoldin'. Loved the lady on his left and her slightly sneered expression.
Go and make disciples…
I'm the last person to attempt to defend Bp Carter's actions during the disaffiliation process. I don't hear him telling churches what to do. His concern is for the "peace" of those churches. As a general proposition, reaction against someone or some thing for wrongs committed in the past is a recipe for turmoil. His admonition re: "sheep stealing" is silly. There are many who remain with liberal churches who are orthodox in their theology. Most of us would be better off if we left, but there are many reasons we stay.
WHO CONSTITUTES THE CHURCH??
(Revelation 21:22) And I saw no "TEMPLE" therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb ARE the "TEMPLE" of it
(Revelation 11:1-2) And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure "the TEMPLE OF GOD" and the altar, and "THEM" that worship "THEREIN"
but the court which is "without" the TEMPLE leave out, and measure it NOT for it is GIVEN unto the "GENTILES"
(👆 gentiles can not enter the temple aka the body of Christ - they can not be apart of the church as it's written)
Sounds like episcope Carter thinks he's HIS EMINENCE. Follow the money! Without sustaining revenue the UMC goes bust.
😅😅😅😅😅
First of all, we who have left are no longer under your authority, so your threatening little orders are laughable at best.
Oh my goodness, you wanted to leave. You don't need to publicly process to get over your feelings. This whole GMC game of saying you're abused is deeply hurtful for those who have faced intimate partner violence and abuse.
I did a recent piece on why it is that I have chosen to keep speaking about these things after leaving. I gave seven reasons, none of them being a personal need to process. I feel like I have done a pretty good job, personally, at having processed what I went through. I notice a lot of other folks need help, which is one of the efforts of this channel.
The notion that I'm hurting people who have faced intimate partner violence doesn't seem immediately true, as I have been doing this for a year, and this is the first time that anyone has said anything about it. Even so, it came to your mind. I'd like to think that naming some of the narcissistic behaviors on the part of an institution can be helpful on an individual level for folks to identify such behaviors in bad potential partners. Rather than fear the wrath of those who have been damaged, I'd be eager to try to equip folks to think through healthy relationship dynamics before it is too late. You can choose to be offended by this, of course, and to disbelieve my hopes and intentions. Just understand that some folks really do see the UMC as an institution that is continuing to harm many greatly, and for good reason. This sort of pushback doesn't really do much except exacerbate resentment. If I am mistaken about any fact I report, then I can and will repent of any false representation. However, if video shows pretty clearly how problematic the personalities are at the top, then on a certain level it become hateful of me not to circulate such knowledge when I now have the ability to easily do so.
Oh puh-leeaase 🙄.
Gaslight much ??? Smh
This guy just wants to cause more harm to their church. This is why I don't go to church. It's all about CASH/MONEY. This guy is like, YOUR NOT MY DAD I'LL DO WHAT I WANT.
Laughable
Dear arrogant Bishop - we have freedom of speech. This is America.