The passion you have for the art is the kind of playful exuberance that makes the nature of human life worth living,somebody surely said that to Vivaldi *back in the day* ...
Living for LA stank face man haha. Also, as every musician knows, a stank face is the highest compliment you can give another musician. Another great one guys :)
When someone in my band plays something really awesome, the rest tends to start laughing, in a sort of joyous surprise Edit: And when it instantly inspires someone else they start shouting: "KEEP DOING THAT KEEP DOING THAT!"
I think improv in classical music died due to the cultural process of canonization. Critics moved from a focus on the performers, to a focus on "great composers" - this was a political effort that was encouraged in order to engender a sense of national identity in previously fractured nations like Italy and Germany. Indeed, Verdi was known as Italy's "father of the fatherland" and later became a politician himself. As time went on, the notion of the "genius composer" became more entrenched and their works considered sacred and immutable. It became sacrilege for a performer to deviate from the composer's notations.
100%. Academia is largely to blame. Young musicians taught to revere these long-dead composers as great geniuses, so surely _they_ aren't up to the task of contributing to the work with their own improv
@@jada90 Exactly. In Baroque and Classical times it was common for musicians to improvise their own cadenzas, or for organists to improvise their voluntaries. Improvisation had a far greater role in musicianship than it did after the turn of the century.
I don't know about the historical context, but I definitely agree that a shift of focus from performers to composers occured. Back in those days practically all musicians could both write and perform multiple instruments.
This actually isn't true. The truth is that improvisation died out because the method of teaching how to improvise (which was inseparable from composing) died out. This method involved children being raised in conservatories/churches and in return they would learn how to improvise and compose 24/7. Why did it die? Because everyone started getting access to pianos and wanted to be taught about music. They didn't have the means to spend a decade of their life being a slave to music, so the music theory had to be dumbed down for the masses. That is the music theory we have today and the old method is dead. If you want to learn more about it, read the book "Child Composers in the Old Conservatories" and watch the accompanying youtube videos here: ruclips.net/channel/UCMlksPU1SiTL66Df2J5BDNAplaylists
Incidentally, I feel that the same thing is happening to rock music, paradoxically enough. The great rock artists of the '60s were throwing everything at the wall, breaking boundaries, playing what they liked the best, and contributing massively to modern music in the public eye. But imply that someone could play "Stairway to Heaven" better than Jimmy Page or that there are better drummers than John Bonham and you will get _books_ of forum posts explaining in excruciating detail why you and everything that you stand for is wrong, lol!
None of my classically trained friends can improvise. They read sheet music insanely well, sight reading crazy written solos. In our Jazz group, when a solo isn't written they look at me, a not at all trained musician, to improv. Works great. Our group sounds great
@Kevin Votaw Let's not forget that Horowitz probably got bored of Hungarian Rhapsody 2 and so he improvised to give to this world a beautiful abomination of notes.
I’ve often felt over the years that maybe I missed out, or robbed myself by not learning to read music. And I tried, I really did. But I’m a drummer; my notes are different from the notes of a melodic instrument. When I read “A”, I can’t hit anything on the drum set and hear an A. So, I wasn’t ever able to associate notation with sounds, and I gave up. HOWEVER. There’s definitely a flip side to this coin, and this pianist reveals it. None of my classically trained musician friends seem to be able to improvise. You know, being presented with an idea and having the musical vocabulary to create a response. Take away the notation and they are done. Yet, they can play friggin Beethoven. This left me with the feeling that too much theory is actually not helpful to someone striving to be a fully rounded player. One needs to be able to tap into that mysterious stream- of-consciousness state that allows one to simply hear, and react. You know, groove. This girl is doing the opposite: she is THINKING. Stop thinking and just play!
@@TheArrangment This critique actually shows how shallow your musical depth is and quite possibly your social depth as well. Open your ears and heart man
Depends on how people learned music. My gf can sight read and play Chopin, but is completely lost if i give her a chord progression and ask her to improv something. And i can't read music
You forgot the most important reason... because classical music competitions force musicians to abide by rigid guidelines for interpretation, reducing the need for creativity to 0.
No creativity for just making Arpeggio pieces with same pattern , in every single pieces that u Made ,you just make arpeggio + octaves and chord and u call it "EPIC" personally ,i'll call it a trash
There is actually creativity needed for a great interpretation, just look at the differences between interpretations of the same piece from different musicians
The last point you made is the most critical one - music as a communal activity as opposed to a soloistic and individualized one - is the real key to enabling musicians of all genres, not just classical, to explore improvisation. The simplest answer to why don’t classical musicians improvise is just that they are rarely given the opportunity, direction, and motivation to do so. It’s akin to the difference between having a conversation between people (improvised) and performing a monologue. Your videos are fantastically made and inspiring. Hope to meet you in person one day to collaborate!
@Carl Roloff It's shocking how many classically-trained pianists can't read simple chord symbols or even build basic triads. I was lucky that I started with a few years of pop organ before I switched to piano, so I had that much knowledge at least.
Some people don’t see creativity as an industry. Some approach art with catharsis in mind, not commerce. The act of creating brings well being and healing, it helps resolve problems, but not necessarily by integration into community, sometimes simply the process itself is enough, and this positivity can be got alone as much as in a group activity. I think recent breakthroughs in technology (regards communication through software) have helped knock down some of these isolatory factors these companies built for themselves through the creative arts. Expression through art is no longer a monopoly controlled only by big company funders. A little money saved and well spent on a necessary computer and software can open the entirety of a world community with similar interests to a lone artist.
@Carl Roloff I think it is much easier to start jamming if you have some kind of a framework, not just "let's play something in E minor" - maybe decide the chord progression in advance or start with an existing tune as the basis of your jam session. Improvisation doesn't have to be 100% free, and it usually works better (especially if you don't know the other musicians and aren't that comfortable with improvising) if you have something to start the improvisation with. It's kind of like putting two complete strangers in a room and telling them to have a conversation without giving them any kind of a topic vs telling them to talk about a specific subject and maybe even letting them prepare some questions beforehand that they would like to ask from each other. Having something to start with kind of lowers the bar, because you don't have to create stuff out of thin air - you have some kind of chords as a reference, or maybe even the main melody of a tune. Free improv only works if everybody is really comfortable with playing with each other. Improvisation requires being able to react to other people's playing, and if all of your energy goes into coming up with music in E minor (because improvisation just isn't something you have done a lot), you aren't going to react to anyone's playing.
Some additional thoughts to my previous post... Improvisation isn't really creating something out of thin air. You can improvise because you have practiced certain things on your instrument - you know what generally works. You may know some typical licks that you can repeat, and you also know some typical rhythm patterns that work in the style, etc. Basically, you already have some "reference material" that you can use in your improvisation. You also know about your role in the band, i.e., what is the common role of your instrument - what kind of stuff usually works on it in a band context. You also probably know how other people may react to your playing and can also read other people's cues and react to what they are playing. This is all "silent knowledge", and it's something you learn by just playing a lot with other people. Now, when a classical musician comes to a jam session and they have little band playing experience, first of all, they may not know their role in the band - they may not know what kind of stuff works on their instrument, i.e., what they are "supposed" to play. They may also not be that familiar with the music style in general (i.e., what kind of stuff works in that genre) because they may never have played that style of music. This also means, they don't know certain common licks or (melodic or rhythmic) phrases in that genre, so they have no "reference material" to use in their improvisation. And if you have little band playing experience, you also probably can't read other people's cues (playing in a band is something that you can only learn by doing it). And this makes it difficult to play anything else than just the tonic chord on the first beat. What else are you supposed to play if you don't know any of the "rules" of the style? Also, figuring out who you should follow and when you should take the lead aren't self-evident things - they are things that you only learn by jamming with other musicians. Many times in amateur jam sessions when an inexperienced player starts playing, they usually play too much - they basically play over other people, and they play a solo when they should be comping and let someone else play a solo. And stuff like this is what makes it difficult for someone without much experience in jamming/playing in a band to just start playing something in E minor. This is why starting from an existing tune, or at least a chord progression, makes things a lot easier - it gives you some reference material to work with. And if you are feeling uncomfortable, you can always go back to the reference material in its simplest form. Improvisation is not about creating something totally new. There are boundaries to improvisation. Nobody can "just start playing" - that is just the result of knowing a lot of musical phrases and having a lot of experience playing with other musicians. And sure, everybody knows musical phrases if they have played an instrument. But there's a difference between knowing musical phrases and knowing how they are usually applied to improvisation. Now, when it comes to classical musicians, what may limit them is also the fact that they are often used to practicing things until they perfect those things. A lot of classical musicians are perfectionists. And this may make them afraid of improvising, because you don't know where the music may be going and you are most likely going to make some mistakes. So, even if they could improvise just fine, they may be afraid of playing anything that they aren't 100% comfortable with.
In short, they aren't allowed because it's for the sake of the so-called "tradition" that you would only follow, and be limited within the restrictions of sheet music. Not unlike jazz......
"Before you do anything else, find friends to explore this with..." Your experience with learning and discovering improv really hit home for me. I was also classically trained with very rigid training that focused more on "perfection" (hell, I wasnt even allowed to do my own cadenzas because they weren't good enough). I always admired jazz artists and all my friends who could improvise while I struggled alone at home, unable play out of fear of making mistakes. But jamming with friends not only helped me learn to improvise more freely, but it also gave me the confidence and courage to be more expressive overall.
I've heard a couple things said about Bach. One is that he would be one of the best jazz musicians if he were alive. Another is that he would be a really great programmer.
I don't know what to say. I watched an entire video by a classical musician from beginning to end and was captivated. The explanations were interesting and within seconds I completely overlooked that the musician was a classical artist. The way that you play is inspiring no matter the genre. I can tell by your playing that you really enjoy music but what's more impressive is that you're able to transferred your joy to the listener via your style and technique. Music is music and when played well it makes the listener feel the emotion of the artist. I'm a beginner on sax and not much more than just the owner of a keyboard. I'm a fan of jazz but you have opened my ears to hear beyond genre. I'm motivated to become a better player on both instruments. Thank you for sharing.
Am I the only one that wants more clasical improv? I love jazz but when I heard nahre improv on those themes I was so excited. I am so used to listening improv jazz but improvisation in a more "classical style" sounds ironically new and nice.
I have lots of friends who are concert pianists (classical) who improvise. One example: Ioana Ilie (Switzerland). She can play anything of the classical repertoire and is an incredible improviser. She has improvised several times at my organization and other concerts throughout the world. Someone in the audience can make a suggestion of a subject and she comes up with something incredible. One of her improvisations is being published by my company. At the end of these concerts, someone can come up with a well-known tune and Ioana creates a wonderful improvisation. An example. The Wedding March by Felix Mendelssohn. Someone in the audience suggested she improvise on this familiar tune: ruclips.net/video/Kct2lX6QtLQ/видео.html She also teaches improvisation so that the perception that it is a lost ability disappears. Another example is Phillip Keveren, the main arranger of Hal Leonard Corporation. He is classically trained. He improvised several times at my events. The statement in the video, "So why have classical musicians stopped learning how to improvise?" They haven't. Of course, classical musicians will play a piece as written by the composer at a concert because the audience expects that. If you were to have titled your video "Why Don't Most Classical Musicians Improvise," that would have made sense. However, the title alludes to "all." It does note "rarely" in the subject area. Here is an example of my friend, Kevin Olson (Classically trained) who volunteered to improvise with Jon Schmidt of The Piano Guys. ruclips.net/video/CoXtoW6cSBk/видео.html Another example is Jackson Berkey, (Masters/Juilliard/Classical) the co-founder and pianist of Mannheim Steamroller. I could go on but will leave this as just a few examples.
I was taught it was standard practice in all eras of classical musical to add something (ornaments - play with the rhythms within gestures - change dynamics - lead the listener into the cadences differently than the first time- etc). I think this is "improvisation" in classical. I understand that jazz and blues and rock musicians took improvisation to a new level it terms of pushing the boundaries, but I think Beethoven and all his friends would have loved it. thank you for adding such thoughtful and intelligent conversation to the RUclips universe.
Many of the church organists I've known were great improvisers. They would include some of the day's hymn tunes in improvisations, and sometimes even sneak in popular melodies for humorous effect.
@@musical_lolu4811 I recommend having a look on RUclips at William porter's organ improvisation class in Smarano Italy. It's a huge help to get started improvising.
It depends on the organist. If you think of a traditional pipe organist, who play in big churches yes definitely. It’s need to help carry the procession along so they had to create one in the theme of the hymn. While more Baptist do improve well but it’s more towards jazz
Also Nahre's improv sections really shows off all the time she spent doing her scales and counterpoint exercises! You're fantastic! I love the way LA has the chops to just smash all over the drum kit and lead but he knows how to sit back and really fill the music out
I love this show. I know very little about music, but each of these episodes is so well researched and presented and paced and edited. I learn a tremendous amount AND it's hugely pleasurable. Thank you, Nahre, LA, and all of the talented people who make this channel.
It's so great to see two channels I love interacting ❤️ I also know so much about visual arts and so little about about music, but you've shown me so many connections! I never realized that improvising was a skill that could be practiced. Thank you for showing us how hard it can be to learn something new!
I never knew the history of improvisation in classical music! I really hope that it makes a comeback. Hopefully we'll see a distinction between rigid concerts with fixed cadenzas and improvisation concerts with a free improv cadenza. That'd add an entirely new element to classical
That moment when Nahre was improvising a cadenza on the Barney theme song - both Nahre and LA’s interplay and infectious energy made me imagine the of you two as cartoon characters. I adore this channel and the both of you for putting in the work in sharing this knowledge with us all.
It occurred to me recently that the musicians on late night shows often bust into improv...and it's not always well known, popular songs or strictly Jazz either. Sometimes it really is classical improv! I think it's amazing what you are doing! It's so important to keep pushing the boundaries of the musical style you love, no matter how old and "solid" in its ways it has become!
if you get a single note wrong, you are a failure. you might as well just quit music, you useless waste of oxygen. I hope that anyone who has ever made a mistake in a piece of music performed in front of others will die in the near future.
“To play a wrong note is insignificant; to play without passion is inexcusable!” ~Not Beethoven Although this quote likely came from an attempt to paraphrase a description given by Beethoven’s pupil, Ferdinand Ries: “When I left out something in a passage, a note or a skip, which in many cases [Beethoven] wished to have specially emphasized, or struck a wrong key, he seldom said anything; yet when I was at fault with regard to the expression, the crescendo or matters of that kind, or in the character of the piece, he would grow angry. Mistakes of the other kind, he said were due to chance; but these last resulted from want of knowledge, feeling or attention. He himself often made mistakes of the first kind, even playing in public.”
I was doing this sound job at a cathedral for a school mass. The principal asked the organist to play background music during one of the speeches. It sounded awesome. The organist said he was skimming through the speech (which was written in the mass booklet), while playing, to find moments to add "something special". I was so impressed. It was also really funny listening a run of the mill "intro to the school year" speech suddenly become like a powerful cinematic moment.
Absolutely correct.Organ recitalists often ask for a theme from members of the audience on which to improvise,sometimes finishing with a 3 part fugue on that theme!😊
I've always thought there was no place to improvise in classical music. I'm glad I'm wrong (and also I'm glad for knowing Nahre's work on her own channel and here - my favourite video of her is the one about flamenco, btw)
That's awesome that you say that! A year ago today before the show even started, we all sat in a room and pitched ideas for episodes and that was maybe the first idea that came up.
not sure how "the pocket" can be taught. one of those things you feel and understand by association and just solid jams. Great challenge for Sound Field. hehe.
I totally love the jam part starting at 0:12 . You can see how LA starts seeing the rhythmic pattern Nahre is going for and straight away is able to accompany it with his drum fills. And the result is such a groovy, melodically appealing thing. That one instantly inspired me!
A good example of improvisation at the piano is Donald Shirley's cadenza--he of Green Book--at the end of the symphonic premiere of New World A-Comin', 1955. There he performed opposite Duke Ellington conducting the Symphony of the Air, Toscanini's ensemble. (Duke did not know when the cadenza would end so came in late with the orchestra, according to Shirley's own telling.) It is available elsewhere on RUclips. In Shirley's view there was a cardinal difference between the art of improvisation in the original sense of that term, and the art of variation on the other. Improvisation to him had to be spontaneous composition of melody and harmony at the same time, but within the framework of known musical rules. In other words, it could not be unstructured noise. (Liszt used to do this in public.) The art of variation, in contrast, starts with a known melody and its harmonic underpinnings. One reason perhaps that "classical" improvisation is rather rare is it is very much more difficult than doing variations, as is done in jazz for instance.
I've said it before, but it can't be overstated: the chemistry between LA and Nahre is wonderful. Any chance we could see uncut recordings of the sessions?
I didn’t realize that some cadenzas were improvised until I listened to different recordings of the Haydn trumpet concerto and I was very surprised to hear the different cadenzas at the end of the first movement. I’m glad someone else also appreciates classical improvisation.
On improvisation, my friend Kristy Kaffenger said "stop playing from memory and start playing in the moment" as well as "stop following where the music leads and start feeling where it could go"
Alas! I wish Nahre were a classical composer and gave us the pleasure of hearing a brand new classical repertoire from now on. Please Nahre, you are awesome. I know you're into jazz and other styles but we need you as a classical composer!
JS Bach improvised a lot on the Organ in the 1700s .... all completely lost to people living in 2019... I doubt that is a benefit to improvising over composing
@@Kunstdesfechtens Somewhat, yes, but improvisation is not written down, composition is. Improvisation is something of the moment (and lost to posterity if done in an age before modern recording technology) Composition is something written for now and for posterity (just ask L. van Beethoven). I'm sure there are other differences, if one thinks about it
A Koster I’ve certainly composed things and then never written them down. I’m well aware what improvisation is, I have a degree in jazz performance. :)
I love hearing musician talk shop. As someone who wasn’t fortunate enough to be born with any musical talent, I live through them. I was hit with the genes to do engineering and do great in that career. But I love music and lord knows I tried my hardest to learn how to play. Just isn’t what I’m good at. But I live through artist like this who really push the boundaries of their understanding and knowledge.
Fantastic episode, y'all!! Nahre is spot on about how classical music is taught; even as a vocalist there was a lot of insistence on "coloring inside the lines" as it were. I can't even count the number of times musicians around me and even teachers would say, "that's nice but it doesn't sound like the recording." (I should note, that was public-school choir music, not college level folks; given a lack of resources, I can't blame the teachers for using recordings as a way to get their kids to learn the music quickly. But that expediency also became a bit like chains for creativity.) I recall participating in a concert where one of our numbers was very much a pop song type of thing, and how surprised, shocked even, most of the younger singers were upon hearing that pop music requires a TON of precision. They assumed that syncopation meant they could "mess around," and discovered that when 100 people try to improv at the same time on the same line, it's....kind of a train wreck. Or at least, it is when those 100 people are not at the top of their game and are not listening to each other, haha! It's really, really awesome seeing Nahre improvise on things. Even Barney (and I LOVED the dark minor thing by the way!). It's not something I heard often in my years of musical training, though I did hear it a lot in certain church settings, and I feel like the short amount of time that I attempted to sing with a gospel choir, my skills as a musician were really stretched to their max on nearly every level specifically because of the expectation of improvisation, variations, "little bits of extra sparkle" as our choir leader called it. At least when I was 19, I did not have much sparkle, haha! I have to note, too, that it's very very difficult to improvise what you don't know. LA noted that - to learn your inspiration until you know it backwards and forwards. A lot of the students I knew back in the day were struggling just to memorize their assigned pieces, and learning them well enough to play with them was not even on their radar mentally. Some of that was because they knew their teachers would not appreciate such inventions, obviously, but some of it was simply that they didn't, or couldn't, spend that much time with the music. And the teachers, trying to get a large number of students up to a specific standard, really didn't have the energy to devote to showing their students more about the music they were learning beyond what was on the page. Again, not their fault: they aren't bad teachers or bad students or bad musicians. It's just the system we use focuses on STANDARD and that's bound to limit, if not forbid, any venture into improvisational notions. The very best musicians I have worked with were able to improv and make it seem easy as breathing. But they also showed how much joy it brought them. Being able to execute a difficult piece of music perfectly note for note is satisfying, in its way. Being so comfortable with a piece of music (difficult or not!) that you can play around with it is exhilarating. Sharing music with others is a unique kind of connection, a way that souls touch for just a moment. As lonely as our lives are in this crazy world, it's no wonder that some of us seek out that connection, I think. Thanks for sharing your creativity with us - LA, and Nahre, and everyone that works on this amazing, wonderful channel. Your videos make me smile and cry and laugh, and every time, I come away with things I didn't know, things I maybe didn't think about very much, and I feel like my soul has been fed a little better for it.
Great topic. I'm the antithesis of a classical musician and am in awe of players with such control and discipline. And then scratching my head when they have no idea how to improvise. There are reasons, obviously, but it's still a funny thing to see. The best description of musical improvising I've heard is it's basically composing in real time - no going back and 'fixing things.'
Sounds like Nahre had a lot of fun this episode. Especially at 2:26 probababbly. Real nice video, can see how much Nahres musicianship has changed. Keep it up
I swear LA and I pulled a face at the same time when Nahre played those chords on the Barney song. I'm learning so much from you guys, being someone who started out as s classically trained vocalist transitioning to jazz. All this information is very useful.
Nahre, it's so great to see that, despite how talented you already are, you are still so fearless about continuing to seriously challenge yourself. You are an inspiration!
Absolutely, and I boggle when some purists object to people "jazzing up" Bach (such as The Swingle Singers, or Jacques Loussier). I love "jazzed-up" Bach. I love "straight" Bach also. Guess I just love Bach.
Bach was using maj7#5 chord once in his music. AND FOR OVER 200 YEARS NO ONE HEARD IT UNTIL THE RISE OF BLUE. Bach is greatest composer in history because he's always find a new idea.
Someone told me once "composing is impov slowed down and crystallized/penned, while improv is composing in-the-moment". Many longhairs (the old term for classical musicians) are turned off by Grateful Dead jams and many classical people are too uptight to improv. Just my opinion. The enormous time it takes to memorize a libretto, for example, doesn't leave much time for blues/jazz stylings. I love it all. Thanks for the great vid and brilliant playing.
André Silva Mozart, could OBVIOUSLY mprovise his azz off, if he wanted. U can't compose, like he did, & b a rigid, moron. Bach, a no-brainer. Beethoven? REALly?!? Look..... All 3 of these great geniusez, went up against DUH established normz, of their timez. They had 2 compose 4 strict setz of circumstancez, 2 survive, yet they pushed back against those nstitutionz & ruleZZZzzzzzzz. They mo than helped 2 open da way 2 where we r 2day, where we can do whutever we would like, muzakally. We now, haveta struggle 2 git away from DUH dumbing-down of Western civilization where da Rockefellerz only wanted education, so peephole could produce their widgetz. Da mind must b opened! Ideaz must b cherished & if valid, helped along. Along da way, rather it b muzak, or a new way 2 do plumbing, I'd LOVE 2 c professionz, where da adherentz, r azz masterful azz Bach, Mozart, & Beethoven. I doubt very many of us, could do any of our professionz, while stone cold deaf! SMH
watching her play piano is like watching the rain fall to a cloud, collect into a waterfall, flow downstream and empty into an ocean of wonder... i couldnt hold back the tears on the barney song, and her improv is a joy to behold... more of THIS please, like, Part two perhaps...?
I think you are right, but there is another reason: the symphony. I am a singer, french horn player and organist. A singer should be able to do easier improvisations. You are often trained as a solo singer and therefore have more focus on being able to do your own interpretation of a song than acting as part of a collective in a choir. A large part of the education for the organist is about improvisation. You must be able to improvise preludes to psalms. There can certainly be different traditions in different countries. I saw in a coral book from Germany that there were written preludes to the psalms. Thats not the case in Sweden where I come from; all preludes are improvised. However, when you learn to play an orchestral instrument such as French horn, you are usually trained to become a musician in an orchestra. The symphony has somehow become the norm for classical music. With forty to one hundred musicians playing at the same time, there is no room for improvisation, but instead it requires very precise note reading.
Well, I've never come across forty to one hundred musicians freely improvising at the same time... but if I try to imagine it, and the inevitable cacophony, I can start to understand why most Jazz musicians play in ensembles and not Richard Strauss size symphonic orchestras all doing their own thing... I don't think the symphony is the reasons for non-improvisation, in fact many composers never wrote symphonies. I guess written music is the cause of not-improvising... should we get rid of musical notation?
A Koster: Many composers use great elements of improvisation in their works. I was at a fantastic concert with music by Stockhausen a month ago. It was wonderful free music. What I mean is that the symphony orchestra has become the norm for the education of instrumental musicians.
@@richardwieland5865 I guess the cadenzas in the concertos of Mozart and Beethoven are the remanents of giving soloist improvisation skills room to shine... but I'm not aware of cadenzas being used by today's soloists for on the spot impovisation... it seems usually a prepared cadenza is used instead. I'm sure Mozart, as soloist, would have improvised during his piano concertos, for example.
One place where classical improvisation still survives and thrives is in the organist community. We regularly have to improvise to fill time at church services, or to add variety to hymn accompaniment.
As an example from a phenomenal organist, here is the recessional from a Mass in 2013, with an improvised introduction, the hymn, and then a fantastic improvised postlude: ruclips.net/video/glvuZuXYBgA/видео.html
Bad teacher. Spend some time improv. It trains your ear and your understanding of music. All composers improvise at the piano, if not for the public, they did/do it for themselves.
Listen I'm having a lot of trouble responding to this question in a way that makes sense so if it doesn't entirely make sense I'm sorry I didn't mean break a rule to make your music sound bad the only thing that can tell you if your music sounds bad if is you and if you like your music there's probably someone out there that will too now if you're at a concert playing a piece that the audience came to hear and its original form you shouldn't improvise I see your point thanks for contributing to the discussion
I studied classical guitar as a foundation. Flamenco for the sheer joy of playing it. But what broke it all open for me was learning to jam with a few Jazz musicians that I met through work. "There are no wrong notes!" was a mantra from these people. (the joke was: "You might have to play out of some deep holes if you get too ambitious!" The meaning was clear. know the tunes and what other have done with them and then start exploring the spaces in the tunes. Eventually you'll own them. Then improv is relatively easy!
I have always looked at "improvsation" vs "as written" as two different schools of music. Both have merit. Both are great, both are worthy of pursuing. Each takes special skills the other does not require. They are different paths to get to the same destination.
@@duckymomo7935 No, he played entirely by ear. If your improv is just theory and manipulating scales, you're not gonna sound good. You have to play what you would sing.
I was also curious about why improvisation was almost non-existent in classical music. Thank you. Also, I would love to see an episode on ska, reggae, and/or dancehall.
I’ve always wondered this as someone who studied classical instead of jazz. I lack skills when it comes to improvising but I really need to learn since it’ll come handy someday.
When you say you want to learn how to improvize what do you mean? When i hear people say they want to improvize people mean they want to play jazz but i loce classical improv so much.
Wonderful video! Beethoven's development sections are basically vast, complex, improvisations. He was well known for improvisation in his piano days and legend has he even improvised for Mozart.
Thank you !!!! I've improvised my entire life. Still going strong. I'm fortunate that I've been allowed to and learn from amazing mentors including the late, GREAT - Connie Crothers from Williamsburg.
There's also an attitude to the classics that they are perfect, as if written in heaven, and to change them at all is sacrilegious. This, despite the fact that we often find different versions of a work by the same composer, see their crossings out and rewritings, and even recordings where they play their own works differently. I can't help but imagine alternate realities where a well known piece like Moonlight Sonata has a few different notes in each, and in every reality people complain if the notes aren't played exactly right as the maestro intended...
I adore your channel. I've learned so much from what you posted. You're so amazing and it blows my mind. I went to Berklee and there was NO ONE LIKE YOU there.
I think that you missed one last reason why classical musicians don't improvise: We live in this hyper-romantic era where the composer is often considered more important than the musicians that play the music. The interpretation often strives to be The Composer's Intention™️ rather than what actually sounds good, and under that frame, there's no room for improvisation.
I would like to think that improvisation stopped with mechanical recording, but the evidence is that it was in decline long before, with fully written-out scores. Perhaps we could blame the impulse behind fundamentalism, in the form of "strict constructionism?"
I listen to jazz since a little kid. The improvisation also affects me on how to react in life. No direct rule in life, and need to improvise. As long as i can reach goal, the steps mostly improvised. Thank you for the music....
"Spontaneous innovations cannot occur in music which is intended to be more a replication of from 1790 than a musical event of today." (8:30) The irony of this quote is that it's often the musicians who are most into "historically-informed performance" who are most into improvisation. One example of this is Ton Koopman, and anyone who searchers for "Ton Koopman Menuet in G" can see what I mean. Other examples include Robert Levin, whom Nahre mentioned in this video :)
Yes, yes, YESSSSSSS, this video was much needed. I can't stand attending one more classical concert, listening to the same written stuff over and over, patronizing sheet music robots over and over. Well done, awesome video.
I learnt classical piano for 13 hard years as a boy. By the end of it, I felt like a glorified jukebox. My fingers could 'play' things, but I had no understanding of the bigger picture. The obsession in the world of classical music with what I think of as musical semantics and the complete lack of care towards how music 'works' in a structural sense, which if you think about it, should be 90% of music education, is why if you're a big picture thinker it can be incredibly frustrating. I look back and realise that I was uninspired and exhausted with it because I don't really care if I held a note for a fraction of a second too long or if my glissando wasn't perfect. I care about the overall sound and aesthetic quality which is created largely by specific melodic, harmonic and rhythmic choices selected from the vast, near infinite probability/choice space of different pitches, tunings, absolute and relative relationships of frequencies. I remember once being told by a teacher, who himself was a trained and graduated 1st violin that 'modes were nonsense' - even then as a relatively uneducated 16 year old, I felt suffocated by the blinkered attitude to it. I realise now that music is vast, expansive and rich with choices. I think modern composers and instrumentalists including Jazz players are probably the way to go if you want to learn about how music actually 'works'. The great irony is that all the great classical composers would agree with my sentiment - they were also more interested in how music is formed and created than small picture thinking and most of them were prolific, virtuoso improvisers.
I agree with you , surely the great composers would have been proud of the jazz and its sub genres, not an imitation but new music inspired by classical music
Gosh i love life sometimes. It's incredible to be able of learning on youtube and hearing people talking about music whenever i want. This jam at the end is really cool, i love the energy of both of you.
At about 4:15 I was thinking, you should check out Gabriela Montero, and right then you mentioned her! Just heard a beatiful improvisation that she did on BBC3.
I love it when I go to a classical concert and the performers bring themselves to the music. I don't want to hear the same thing I can get on a CD! I feel blessed to have a local orchestra that embraces this- St Paul Chamber Orchestra.
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Hmm, what is western music?
Good stuff!
I’m still waiting for the Bachata video
@@SuviTuuliAllan Music of European composers, mostly. You know. B,B,B, and M.
Sound Field 7
LA keeps teleporting around the room like he is actually a character in Nahre's head. One that personifies her wild improv side.
this is a really good comment.
He is so into improv that he wants her to get her it too.
Thank you
@@deardeer1998 i think you'd love mr. robot
He is Bing Bong the elephant from the movie Inside Out
Nahre Sol: *_makes the most impressively dramatic improvisation of the barney end song_*
"or something like that idk lol"
Been studying too much Beethoven
The drummer has such a genuine excitement when hearing the piano improv, it's so moving
Yea he was terrible
@@JeromePJr the actual heck? 🤣
@@JeromePJr Yea terribly good.
@@JeromePJr I want whatever it is you are smoking. He was great.
@@JeromePJr ???
I love how he gets so excited when she plays
I'd love for LA Buckner to lead his own band and write the kind of music he wants to write given his eclectic background
maybe too exciting,
@@africanhistory What makes you say that
You know you see dedicated drummer, when he is listening to classical improvisation and can't stop drumming air drums.
Casually refers to the 1700s as *back in the day*
The passion you have for the art is the kind of playful exuberance that makes the nature of human life worth living,somebody surely said that to Vivaldi *back in the day* ...
Back in the day 300 years ago lol
@@teamyordle23
Yep back in the day 2020 years ago, little Baby Jesus our saviour was born, a great star in the night sky shone and three wise men...
@Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart
...You still use...
Too many notes.
Living for LA stank face man haha.
Also, as every musician knows, a stank face is the highest compliment you can give another musician. Another great one guys :)
It really is the highest compliment getting that look from LA or when he calls you cheese
Pink
Stank face and a laugh.
When someone in my band plays something really awesome, the rest tends to start laughing, in a sort of joyous surprise
Edit: And when it instantly inspires someone else they start shouting: "KEEP DOING THAT KEEP DOING THAT!"
E
I think improv in classical music died due to the cultural process of canonization. Critics moved from a focus on the performers, to a focus on "great composers" - this was a political effort that was encouraged in order to engender a sense of national identity in previously fractured nations like Italy and Germany. Indeed, Verdi was known as Italy's "father of the fatherland" and later became a politician himself. As time went on, the notion of the "genius composer" became more entrenched and their works considered sacred and immutable. It became sacrilege for a performer to deviate from the composer's notations.
100%. Academia is largely to blame. Young musicians taught to revere these long-dead composers as great geniuses, so surely _they_ aren't up to the task of contributing to the work with their own improv
@@jada90 Exactly. In Baroque and Classical times it was common for musicians to improvise their own cadenzas, or for organists to improvise their voluntaries. Improvisation had a far greater role in musicianship than it did after the turn of the century.
I don't know about the historical context, but I definitely agree that a shift of focus from performers to composers occured. Back in those days practically all musicians could both write and perform multiple instruments.
This actually isn't true. The truth is that improvisation died out because the method of teaching how to improvise (which was inseparable from composing) died out. This method involved children being raised in conservatories/churches and in return they would learn how to improvise and compose 24/7. Why did it die? Because everyone started getting access to pianos and wanted to be taught about music. They didn't have the means to spend a decade of their life being a slave to music, so the music theory had to be dumbed down for the masses. That is the music theory we have today and the old method is dead. If you want to learn more about it, read the book "Child Composers in the Old Conservatories" and watch the accompanying youtube videos here: ruclips.net/channel/UCMlksPU1SiTL66Df2J5BDNAplaylists
Incidentally, I feel that the same thing is happening to rock music, paradoxically enough. The great rock artists of the '60s were throwing everything at the wall, breaking boundaries, playing what they liked the best, and contributing massively to modern music in the public eye. But imply that someone could play "Stairway to Heaven" better than Jimmy Page or that there are better drummers than John Bonham and you will get _books_ of forum posts explaining in excruciating detail why you and everything that you stand for is wrong, lol!
None of my classically trained friends can improvise. They read sheet music insanely well, sight reading crazy written solos. In our Jazz group, when a solo isn't written they look at me, a not at all trained musician, to improv. Works great. Our group sounds great
@Kevin Votaw Let's not forget that Horowitz probably got bored of Hungarian Rhapsody 2 and so he improvised to give to this world a beautiful abomination of notes.
I’ve often felt over the years that maybe I missed out, or robbed myself by not learning to read music. And I tried, I really did. But I’m a drummer; my notes are different from the notes of a melodic instrument. When I read “A”, I can’t hit anything on the drum set and hear an A. So, I wasn’t ever able to associate notation with sounds, and I gave up. HOWEVER. There’s definitely a flip side to this coin, and this pianist reveals it. None of my classically trained musician friends seem to be able to improvise. You know, being presented with an idea and having the musical vocabulary to create a response. Take away the notation and they are done. Yet, they can play friggin Beethoven. This left me with the feeling that too much theory is actually not helpful to someone striving to be a fully rounded player. One needs to be able to tap into that mysterious stream- of-consciousness state that allows one to simply hear, and react. You know, groove. This girl is doing the opposite: she is THINKING. Stop thinking and just play!
@@TheArrangment Get your racist crap outta here!
@@TheArrangment This critique actually shows how shallow your musical depth is and quite possibly your social depth as well. Open your ears and heart man
Depends on how people learned music. My gf can sight read and play Chopin, but is completely lost if i give her a chord progression and ask her to improv something. And i can't read music
You forgot the most important reason... because classical music competitions force musicians to abide by rigid guidelines for interpretation, reducing the need for creativity to 0.
No creativity for just making Arpeggio pieces with same pattern , in every single pieces that u Made ,you just make arpeggio + octaves and chord and u call it "EPIC" personally ,i'll call it a trash
@@devosiagian9578 Uhhh that burn...
@@devosiagian9578 what are youtalking about? what kind of music
@@IgnacioClerici-mp5cy hm, i'm talking about his music...
There is actually creativity needed for a great interpretation, just look at the differences between interpretations of the same piece from different musicians
Seeing both hosts going through their musical journeys are really interesting.
It's been sooo fun
Is*
You guys make the best musical duo! A classical pianist and a gospel drummer, who's styles are worlds apart yet can share so much.
The last point you made is the most critical one - music as a communal activity as opposed to a soloistic and individualized one - is the real key to enabling musicians of all genres, not just classical, to explore improvisation. The simplest answer to why don’t classical musicians improvise is just that they are rarely given the opportunity, direction, and motivation to do so. It’s akin to the difference between having a conversation between people (improvised) and performing a monologue.
Your videos are fantastically made and inspiring. Hope to meet you in person one day to collaborate!
@Carl Roloff It's shocking how many classically-trained pianists can't read simple chord symbols or even build basic triads. I was lucky that I started with a few years of pop organ before I switched to piano, so I had that much knowledge at least.
Some people don’t see creativity as an industry. Some approach art with catharsis in mind, not commerce. The act of creating brings well being and healing, it helps resolve problems, but not necessarily by integration into community, sometimes simply the process itself is enough, and this positivity can be got alone as much as in a group activity.
I think recent breakthroughs in technology (regards communication through software) have helped knock down some of these isolatory factors these companies built for themselves through the creative arts. Expression through art is no longer a monopoly controlled only by big company funders. A little money saved and well spent on a necessary computer and software can open the entirety of a world community with similar interests to a lone artist.
@Carl Roloff I think it is much easier to start jamming if you have some kind of a framework, not just "let's play something in E minor" - maybe decide the chord progression in advance or start with an existing tune as the basis of your jam session. Improvisation doesn't have to be 100% free, and it usually works better (especially if you don't know the other musicians and aren't that comfortable with improvising) if you have something to start the improvisation with. It's kind of like putting two complete strangers in a room and telling them to have a conversation without giving them any kind of a topic vs telling them to talk about a specific subject and maybe even letting them prepare some questions beforehand that they would like to ask from each other.
Having something to start with kind of lowers the bar, because you don't have to create stuff out of thin air - you have some kind of chords as a reference, or maybe even the main melody of a tune. Free improv only works if everybody is really comfortable with playing with each other. Improvisation requires being able to react to other people's playing, and if all of your energy goes into coming up with music in E minor (because improvisation just isn't something you have done a lot), you aren't going to react to anyone's playing.
Some additional thoughts to my previous post... Improvisation isn't really creating something out of thin air. You can improvise because you have practiced certain things on your instrument - you know what generally works. You may know some typical licks that you can repeat, and you also know some typical rhythm patterns that work in the style, etc. Basically, you already have some "reference material" that you can use in your improvisation. You also know about your role in the band, i.e., what is the common role of your instrument - what kind of stuff usually works on it in a band context. You also probably know how other people may react to your playing and can also read other people's cues and react to what they are playing. This is all "silent knowledge", and it's something you learn by just playing a lot with other people.
Now, when a classical musician comes to a jam session and they have little band playing experience, first of all, they may not know their role in the band - they may not know what kind of stuff works on their instrument, i.e., what they are "supposed" to play. They may also not be that familiar with the music style in general (i.e., what kind of stuff works in that genre) because they may never have played that style of music. This also means, they don't know certain common licks or (melodic or rhythmic) phrases in that genre, so they have no "reference material" to use in their improvisation. And if you have little band playing experience, you also probably can't read other people's cues (playing in a band is something that you can only learn by doing it). And this makes it difficult to play anything else than just the tonic chord on the first beat. What else are you supposed to play if you don't know any of the "rules" of the style?
Also, figuring out who you should follow and when you should take the lead aren't self-evident things - they are things that you only learn by jamming with other musicians. Many times in amateur jam sessions when an inexperienced player starts playing, they usually play too much - they basically play over other people, and they play a solo when they should be comping and let someone else play a solo. And stuff like this is what makes it difficult for someone without much experience in jamming/playing in a band to just start playing something in E minor.
This is why starting from an existing tune, or at least a chord progression, makes things a lot easier - it gives you some reference material to work with. And if you are feeling uncomfortable, you can always go back to the reference material in its simplest form.
Improvisation is not about creating something totally new. There are boundaries to improvisation. Nobody can "just start playing" - that is just the result of knowing a lot of musical phrases and having a lot of experience playing with other musicians. And sure, everybody knows musical phrases if they have played an instrument. But there's a difference between knowing musical phrases and knowing how they are usually applied to improvisation.
Now, when it comes to classical musicians, what may limit them is also the fact that they are often used to practicing things until they perfect those things. A lot of classical musicians are perfectionists. And this may make them afraid of improvising, because you don't know where the music may be going and you are most likely going to make some mistakes. So, even if they could improvise just fine, they may be afraid of playing anything that they aren't 100% comfortable with.
In short, they aren't allowed because it's for the sake of the so-called "tradition" that you would only follow, and be limited within the restrictions of sheet music.
Not unlike jazz......
"Before you do anything else, find friends to explore this with..."
Your experience with learning and discovering improv really hit home for me. I was also classically trained with very rigid training that focused more on "perfection" (hell, I wasnt even allowed to do my own cadenzas because they weren't good enough). I always admired jazz artists and all my friends who could improvise while I struggled alone at home, unable play out of fear of making mistakes. But jamming with friends not only helped me learn to improvise more freely, but it also gave me the confidence and courage to be more expressive overall.
Same
I've heard a couple things said about Bach. One is that he would be one of the best jazz musicians if he were alive. Another is that he would be a really great programmer.
Or he would be a plumber .. but who really knows?
@@PeaceNinja007 Emmanuel and Christian: Super Bach Bros.
@tzar2007 how so?
two reasons why I love Bach
I don't know what to say. I watched an entire video by a classical musician from beginning to end and was captivated. The explanations were interesting and within seconds I completely overlooked that the musician was a classical artist. The way that you play is inspiring no matter the genre. I can tell by your playing that you really enjoy music but what's more impressive is that you're able to transferred your joy to the listener via your style and technique. Music is music and when played well it makes the listener feel the emotion of the artist. I'm a beginner on sax and not much more than just the owner of a keyboard. I'm a fan of jazz but you have opened my ears to hear beyond genre. I'm motivated to become a better player on both instruments. Thank you for sharing.
Am I the only one that wants more clasical improv? I love jazz but when I heard nahre improv on those themes I was so excited. I am so used to listening improv jazz but improvisation in a more "classical style" sounds ironically new and nice.
I have lots of friends who are concert pianists (classical) who improvise. One example: Ioana Ilie (Switzerland). She can play anything of the classical repertoire and is an incredible improviser. She has improvised several times at my organization and other concerts throughout the world. Someone in the audience can make a suggestion of a subject and she comes up with something incredible. One of her improvisations is being published by my company. At the end of these concerts, someone can come up with a well-known tune and Ioana creates a wonderful improvisation. An example. The Wedding March by Felix Mendelssohn. Someone in the audience suggested she improvise on this familiar tune: ruclips.net/video/Kct2lX6QtLQ/видео.html She also teaches improvisation so that the perception that it is a lost ability disappears. Another example is Phillip Keveren, the main arranger of Hal Leonard Corporation. He is classically trained. He improvised several times at my events. The statement in the video, "So why have classical musicians stopped learning how to improvise?" They haven't. Of course, classical musicians will play a piece as written by the composer at a concert because the audience expects that. If you were to have titled your video "Why Don't Most Classical Musicians Improvise," that would have made sense. However, the title alludes to "all." It does note "rarely" in the subject area. Here is an example of my friend, Kevin Olson (Classically trained) who volunteered to improvise with Jon Schmidt of The Piano Guys. ruclips.net/video/CoXtoW6cSBk/видео.html Another example is Jackson Berkey, (Masters/Juilliard/Classical) the co-founder and pianist of Mannheim Steamroller. I could go on but will leave this as just a few examples.
Ah, fantastic stuff. That last jam was excellent. And man, LA's enthusiasm is infectious.
Miss penis envy - I did not say that.
Nobody - You THOUGHT that though.
I was taught it was standard practice in all eras of classical musical to add something (ornaments - play with the rhythms within gestures - change dynamics - lead the listener into the cadences differently than the first time- etc). I think this is "improvisation" in classical. I understand that jazz and blues and rock musicians took improvisation to a new level it terms of pushing the boundaries, but I think Beethoven and all his friends would have loved it. thank you for adding such thoughtful and intelligent conversation to the RUclips universe.
One type of classical musician who still need to be really good at improvising are church organists.
Mnnvint , how true. Indispensable for communion, late clergy, delayed weddings.
Not all. Certainly not me.
Many of the church organists I've known were great improvisers. They would include some of the day's hymn tunes in improvisations, and sometimes even sneak in popular melodies for humorous effect.
@@musical_lolu4811 I recommend having a look on RUclips at William porter's organ improvisation class in Smarano Italy. It's a huge help to get started improvising.
It depends on the organist. If you think of a traditional pipe organist, who play in big churches yes definitely. It’s need to help carry the procession along so they had to create one in the theme of the hymn. While more Baptist do improve well but it’s more towards jazz
Also Nahre's improv sections really shows off all the time she spent doing her scales and counterpoint exercises! You're fantastic! I love the way LA has the chops to just smash all over the drum kit and lead but he knows how to sit back and really fill the music out
I want to hear the complete "Barney's theme concerto" so bad now !
I'm also interested in that.
"I Love You" is the rondo finale.
I'm intrigued I wanna hear it too.
Me too😄
We all do
I don't even know how long I've been watching Nahre Sol and she STILL amazes me with her playing
I love this show. I know very little about music, but each of these episodes is so well researched and presented and paced and edited. I learn a tremendous amount AND it's hugely pleasurable. Thank you, Nahre, LA, and all of the talented people who make this channel.
Getting comments like this from one of our favorite channels is overwhelming.
It's so great to see two channels I love interacting ❤️ I also know so much about visual arts and so little about about music, but you've shown me so many connections! I never realized that improvising was a skill that could be practiced. Thank you for showing us how hard it can be to learn something new!
I never knew the history of improvisation in classical music! I really hope that it makes a comeback. Hopefully we'll see a distinction between rigid concerts with fixed cadenzas and improvisation concerts with a free improv cadenza. That'd add an entirely new element to classical
YEESS I WANT MORE OF THAT
That moment when Nahre was improvising a cadenza on the Barney theme song - both Nahre and LA’s interplay and infectious energy made me imagine the of you two as cartoon characters. I adore this channel and the both of you for putting in the work in sharing this knowledge with us all.
PBS, make an animated version of Sound Field you cowards!
It occurred to me recently that the musicians on late night shows often bust into improv...and it's not always well known, popular songs or strictly Jazz either. Sometimes it really is classical improv! I think it's amazing what you are doing! It's so important to keep pushing the boundaries of the musical style you love, no matter how old and "solid" in its ways it has become!
I love LA, he's so genuine and sweet. I wish I'd be as free and open in showing my emotions as he is.
Her improv of barney's theme was nuts!
Musician: tries to break out of the confines of written sheet music
Purists: *tHe sAcReD tExTs!!!*
dis sum high quality musical meme ryt here mane!
*SACRILEGIOUS*
if you get a single note wrong, you are a failure. you might as well just quit music, you useless waste of oxygen. I hope that anyone who has ever made a mistake in a piece of music performed in front of others will die in the near future.
lololol
Elitists: How dare you defile such a pristine piece of music?! Sacrilege!
Mozart: Lol Leck mich im Arsch
“To play a wrong note is insignificant; to play without passion is inexcusable!”
~Not Beethoven
Although this quote likely came from an attempt to paraphrase a description given by Beethoven’s pupil, Ferdinand Ries:
“When I left out something in a passage, a note or a skip, which in many cases [Beethoven] wished to have specially emphasized, or struck a wrong key, he seldom said anything; yet when I was at fault with regard to the expression, the crescendo or matters of that kind, or in the character of the piece, he would grow angry. Mistakes of the other kind, he said were due to chance; but these last resulted from want of knowledge, feeling or attention. He himself often made mistakes of the first kind, even playing in public.”
Organists are classical musicians and improvise like every sunday or more (even during concerts....)
So true
I was doing this sound job at a cathedral for a school mass. The principal asked the organist to play background music during one of the speeches. It sounded awesome. The organist said he was skimming through the speech (which was written in the mass booklet), while playing, to find moments to add "something special". I was so impressed. It was also really funny listening a run of the mill "intro to the school year" speech suddenly become like a powerful cinematic moment.
Absolutely correct.Organ recitalists often ask for a theme from members of the audience on which to improvise,sometimes finishing with a 3 part fugue on that theme!😊
can we get some of you two jamming in every episode? it's awesome to see your musical compatibility grow each time!
We need lots of folk like you in schools teaching music. Society might calm down and chill man!
I've always thought there was no place to improvise in classical music. I'm glad I'm wrong
(and also I'm glad for knowing Nahre's work on her own channel and here - my favourite video of her is the one about flamenco, btw)
I could listen to Nahre improvise standards all day.
I wanna hear the full version of that jam session at the end, sounded great.
We'll put it up on our subreddit! are you on there? www.reddit.com/r/SoundField/
@@SoundFieldPBS Now I am, thanks guys.
I could watch Nahre and LA jam all day. =)
@@JuliaAllenHesse agreed
Here is the link to it! www.reddit.com/r/SoundField/comments/e6mv4l/full_fibonacci_jam_from_our_episode_why_dont/
He's right, it's hard for classically trained musicians to chill. It's a damn shame. He's also right about the "correctness" being intimidating.
@Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart lmao dude
Love it. Education and inspirational.
May I suggest doing an episode on "the pocket?" The pocket as in being in the pocket
That's awesome that you say that! A year ago today before the show even started, we all sat in a room and pitched ideas for episodes and that was maybe the first idea that came up.
You could do that episode toghether with Adam Neely. He seems to be the right guy to explain the more scientific side of being "in the pockett".
not sure how "the pocket" can be taught. one of those things you feel and understand by association and just solid jams. Great challenge for Sound Field. hehe.
As every one knows, J S Bach was the greatest Improvisator at his time.
He is said to improvise fugues on the cembalo and stuff.
Improviser
Maddy29 No, improvisator.
TwoMenAndATank he improvised the word.
Please, get it right... im-prov-i-sa-ti-ca-tor.
I totally love the jam part starting at 0:12 . You can see how LA starts seeing the rhythmic pattern Nahre is going for and straight away is able to accompany it with his drum fills. And the result is such a groovy, melodically appealing thing. That one instantly inspired me!
We've come so far! It's beautiful
Hahaha, it's actually incredibly how his face immediately lights up when he notices the pattern!
A good example of improvisation at the piano is Donald Shirley's cadenza--he of Green Book--at the end of the symphonic premiere of New World A-Comin', 1955. There he performed opposite Duke Ellington conducting the Symphony of the Air, Toscanini's ensemble. (Duke did not know when the cadenza would end so came in late with the orchestra, according to Shirley's own telling.) It is available elsewhere on RUclips.
In Shirley's view there was a cardinal difference between the art of improvisation in the original sense of that term, and the art of variation on the other. Improvisation to him had to be spontaneous composition of melody and harmony at the same time, but within the framework of known musical rules. In other words, it could not be unstructured noise. (Liszt used to do this in public.) The art of variation, in contrast, starts with a known melody and its harmonic underpinnings.
One reason perhaps that "classical" improvisation is rather rare is it is very much more difficult than doing variations, as is done in jazz for instance.
I've said it before, but it can't be overstated: the chemistry between LA and Nahre is wonderful. Any chance we could see uncut recordings of the sessions?
Check out our subreddit
Cuz they’re in luvvv :}
I didn’t realize that some cadenzas were improvised until I listened to different recordings of the Haydn trumpet concerto and I was very surprised to hear the different cadenzas at the end of the first movement. I’m glad someone else also appreciates classical improvisation.
On improvisation, my friend Kristy Kaffenger said "stop playing from memory and start playing in the moment" as well as "stop following where the music leads and start feeling where it could go"
Good advice
the guy's reaction to classic improvisation is the best lmaoo
hes like daaaaamn guurrl u made that up just now?
LA watching Nahre improvise was how I feel watching anything you guys play. I Love this channel so much!
We love you thank so much!
Alas! I wish Nahre were a classical composer and gave us the pleasure of hearing a brand new classical repertoire from now on. Please Nahre, you are awesome. I know you're into jazz and other styles but we need you as a classical composer!
Organ music is maybe the only place in classical music where the improvisation tradition didn't get lost, and it's quite an experience!
JS Bach improvised a lot on the Organ in the 1700s .... all completely lost to people living in 2019... I doubt that is a benefit to improvising over composing
A Koster Well, improvisation is just composition sped up, and composition is just improvisation slowed down. :)
@@clavichord on the other hand, you get to listen live to many organ improvisers who are brilliant and happen to be alive and playing in 2019
@@Kunstdesfechtens Somewhat, yes, but improvisation is not written down, composition is. Improvisation is something of the moment (and lost to posterity if done in an age before modern recording technology) Composition is something written for now and for posterity (just ask L. van Beethoven). I'm sure there are other differences, if one thinks about it
A Koster I’ve certainly composed things and then never written them down. I’m well aware what improvisation is, I have a degree in jazz performance. :)
God know why I sat on this video for so long, I can watch you guys improvise for hours
I want Nahrae and LA to star in a buddy comedy together.
I love hearing musician talk shop. As someone who wasn’t fortunate enough to be born with any musical talent, I live through them. I was hit with the genes to do engineering and do great in that career. But I love music and lord knows I tried my hardest to learn how to play. Just isn’t what I’m good at. But I live through artist like this who really push the boundaries of their understanding and knowledge.
Fantastic episode, y'all!!
Nahre is spot on about how classical music is taught; even as a vocalist there was a lot of insistence on "coloring inside the lines" as it were. I can't even count the number of times musicians around me and even teachers would say, "that's nice but it doesn't sound like the recording." (I should note, that was public-school choir music, not college level folks; given a lack of resources, I can't blame the teachers for using recordings as a way to get their kids to learn the music quickly. But that expediency also became a bit like chains for creativity.)
I recall participating in a concert where one of our numbers was very much a pop song type of thing, and how surprised, shocked even, most of the younger singers were upon hearing that pop music requires a TON of precision. They assumed that syncopation meant they could "mess around," and discovered that when 100 people try to improv at the same time on the same line, it's....kind of a train wreck. Or at least, it is when those 100 people are not at the top of their game and are not listening to each other, haha!
It's really, really awesome seeing Nahre improvise on things. Even Barney (and I LOVED the dark minor thing by the way!). It's not something I heard often in my years of musical training, though I did hear it a lot in certain church settings, and I feel like the short amount of time that I attempted to sing with a gospel choir, my skills as a musician were really stretched to their max on nearly every level specifically because of the expectation of improvisation, variations, "little bits of extra sparkle" as our choir leader called it. At least when I was 19, I did not have much sparkle, haha!
I have to note, too, that it's very very difficult to improvise what you don't know. LA noted that - to learn your inspiration until you know it backwards and forwards. A lot of the students I knew back in the day were struggling just to memorize their assigned pieces, and learning them well enough to play with them was not even on their radar mentally. Some of that was because they knew their teachers would not appreciate such inventions, obviously, but some of it was simply that they didn't, or couldn't, spend that much time with the music. And the teachers, trying to get a large number of students up to a specific standard, really didn't have the energy to devote to showing their students more about the music they were learning beyond what was on the page. Again, not their fault: they aren't bad teachers or bad students or bad musicians. It's just the system we use focuses on STANDARD and that's bound to limit, if not forbid, any venture into improvisational notions.
The very best musicians I have worked with were able to improv and make it seem easy as breathing. But they also showed how much joy it brought them. Being able to execute a difficult piece of music perfectly note for note is satisfying, in its way. Being so comfortable with a piece of music (difficult or not!) that you can play around with it is exhilarating. Sharing music with others is a unique kind of connection, a way that souls touch for just a moment. As lonely as our lives are in this crazy world, it's no wonder that some of us seek out that connection, I think.
Thanks for sharing your creativity with us - LA, and Nahre, and everyone that works on this amazing, wonderful channel. Your videos make me smile and cry and laugh, and every time, I come away with things I didn't know, things I maybe didn't think about very much, and I feel like my soul has been fed a little better for it.
Thanks for watching and that thoughtful comment Sonja! Sound Field is made possible thanks to viewers like you!
What a fantastic, insightful comment. Thank you!
Awesome comment
Great topic. I'm the antithesis of a classical musician and am in awe of players with such control and discipline. And then scratching my head when they have no idea how to improvise. There are reasons, obviously, but it's still a funny thing to see. The best description of musical improvising I've heard is it's basically composing in real time - no going back and 'fixing things.'
Sounds like Nahre had a lot of fun this episode. Especially at 2:26 probababbly.
Real nice video, can see how much Nahres musicianship has changed.
Keep it up
I swear LA and I pulled a face at the same time when Nahre played those chords on the Barney song.
I'm learning so much from you guys, being someone who started out as s classically trained vocalist transitioning to jazz. All this information is very useful.
Nahre is goals
Seriously she is amazing
Nahre, it's so great to see that, despite how talented you already are, you are still so fearless about continuing to seriously challenge yourself. You are an inspiration!
I think if Bach came back to life in the 50's, he would have embraced bebop and would have been one of the jazz greats.
Absolutely, and I boggle when some purists object to people "jazzing up" Bach (such as The Swingle Singers, or Jacques Loussier). I love "jazzed-up" Bach. I love "straight" Bach also. Guess I just love Bach.
@@mikewellwood1412 : to be fair, there are right and wrong ways of doing that. Might be that the problem is that the Swingle Singers are shite.
Bach was using maj7#5 chord once in his music. AND FOR OVER 200 YEARS NO ONE HEARD IT UNTIL THE RISE OF BLUE.
Bach is greatest composer in history because he's always find a new idea.
Pertinent to my other comment, here are the King's Singers having some serious fun with JSB, in Leipzig:
ruclips.net/video/HDMUraUAAY4/видео.html
Bach already did come back. His name was Art Tatum.
Someone told me once "composing is impov slowed down and crystallized/penned, while improv is composing in-the-moment".
Many longhairs (the old term for classical musicians) are turned off by Grateful Dead jams and many classical people are too uptight to improv. Just my opinion. The enormous time it takes to memorize a libretto, for example, doesn't leave much time for blues/jazz stylings. I love it all. Thanks for the great vid and brilliant playing.
Kudos on the thumbnail, first time I've seen Mozart rolling his eyes.
André Silva
Mozart, could OBVIOUSLY mprovise his azz off, if he wanted. U can't compose, like he did, & b a rigid, moron.
Bach, a no-brainer.
Beethoven? REALly?!?
Look..... All 3 of these great geniusez, went up against DUH established normz, of their timez. They had 2 compose 4 strict setz of circumstancez, 2 survive, yet they pushed back against those nstitutionz & ruleZZZzzzzzzz. They mo than helped 2 open da way 2 where we r 2day, where we can do whutever we would like, muzakally.
We now, haveta struggle 2 git away from DUH dumbing-down of Western civilization where da Rockefellerz only wanted education, so peephole could produce their widgetz. Da mind must b opened! Ideaz must b cherished & if valid, helped along. Along da way, rather it b muzak, or a new way 2 do plumbing, I'd LOVE 2 c professionz, where da adherentz, r azz masterful azz Bach, Mozart, & Beethoven. I doubt very many of us, could do any of our professionz, while stone cold deaf!
SMH
watching her play piano is like watching the rain fall to a cloud, collect into a waterfall, flow downstream and empty into an ocean of wonder... i couldnt hold back the tears on the barney song, and her improv is a joy to behold... more of THIS please, like, Part two perhaps...?
I think you are right, but there is another reason: the symphony. I am a singer, french horn player and organist. A singer should be able to do easier improvisations. You are often trained as a solo singer and therefore have more focus on being able to do your own interpretation of a song than acting as part of a collective in a choir.
A large part of the education for the organist is about improvisation. You must be able to improvise preludes to psalms. There can certainly be different traditions in different countries. I saw in a coral book from Germany that there were written preludes to the psalms. Thats not the case in Sweden where I come from; all preludes are improvised.
However, when you learn to play an orchestral instrument such as French horn, you are usually trained to become a musician in an orchestra. The symphony has somehow become the norm for classical music. With forty to one hundred musicians playing at the same time, there is no room for improvisation, but instead it requires very precise note reading.
Well, I've never come across forty to one hundred musicians freely improvising at the same time... but if I try to imagine it, and the inevitable cacophony, I can start to understand why most Jazz musicians play in ensembles and not Richard Strauss size symphonic orchestras all doing their own thing... I don't think the symphony is the reasons for non-improvisation, in fact many composers never wrote symphonies. I guess written music is the cause of not-improvising... should we get rid of musical notation?
A Koster: Many composers use great elements of improvisation in their works. I was at a fantastic concert with music by Stockhausen a month ago. It was wonderful free music. What I mean is that the symphony orchestra has become the norm for the education of instrumental musicians.
@@richardwieland5865 I guess the cadenzas in the concertos of Mozart and Beethoven are the remanents of giving soloist improvisation skills room to shine... but I'm not aware of cadenzas being used by today's soloists for on the spot impovisation... it seems usually a prepared cadenza is used instead. I'm sure Mozart, as soloist, would have improvised during his piano concertos, for example.
What about arabic traditional music?
She has a amazing talent playing the piano!!
This was so interesting to watch. I'd love to see more classical musicians improvising again!
One place where classical improvisation still survives and thrives is in the organist community. We regularly have to improvise to fill time at church services, or to add variety to hymn accompaniment.
As an example from a phenomenal organist, here is the recessional from a Mass in 2013, with an improvised introduction, the hymn, and then a fantastic improvised postlude: ruclips.net/video/glvuZuXYBgA/видео.html
This is the stuff that I live for. 💕
Me too! Nahre is amazing
@@SoundFieldPBS She's like a Classical version of Mulan. 💕🌹
You don't improvise when you're taught that it's a mistake.
Bad teacher. Spend some time improv. It trains your ear and your understanding of music. All composers improvise at the piano, if not for the public, they did/do it for themselves.
There are no rules in music anytime somebody tells you one break it
@@MichaelTurner856 I agree. However there are consequences to flaunting the rules and often that consequence is that people won't like your music...
Listen I'm having a lot of trouble responding to this question in a way that makes sense so if it doesn't entirely make sense I'm sorry I didn't mean break a rule to make your music sound bad the only thing that can tell you if your music sounds bad if is you and if you like your music there's probably someone out there that will too now if you're at a concert playing a piece that the audience came to hear and its original form you shouldn't improvise I see your point thanks for contributing to the discussion
I studied classical guitar as a foundation. Flamenco for the sheer joy of playing it. But what broke it all open for me was learning to jam with a few Jazz musicians that I met through work. "There are no wrong notes!" was a mantra from these people. (the joke was: "You might have to play out of some deep holes if you get too ambitious!" The meaning was clear. know the tunes and what other have done with them and then start exploring the spaces in the tunes. Eventually you'll own them. Then improv is relatively easy!
I have always looked at "improvsation" vs "as written" as two different schools of music. Both have merit. Both are great, both are worthy of pursuing. Each takes special skills the other does not require. They are different paths to get to the same destination.
“Improvisation” relies heavily knowing and studying music theory which is studied from “as written”
@@duckymomo7935 Wes Montgomery would disagree
rugg1999
Why? did he develop new theory?
(not from previous or existing theory-whether ir not he knows it)
@@duckymomo7935 No, he played entirely by ear. If your improv is just theory and manipulating scales, you're not gonna sound good. You have to play what you would sing.
rugg1999
Ear training is part of music theory lol
It’s a musicianship skill
Nahre...my goodness that improv of Barney in minor...WOW!
LA’s face is all of us right now 😲
I was also curious about why improvisation was almost non-existent in classical music. Thank you. Also, I would love to see an episode on ska, reggae, and/or dancehall.
jazz musicians and classical musicians are constantly blowing each-other's minds
I’ve always wondered this as someone who studied classical instead of jazz. I lack skills when it comes to improvising but I really need to learn since it’ll come handy someday.
When you say you want to learn how to improvize what do you mean? When i hear people say they want to improvize people mean they want to play jazz but i loce classical improv so much.
Why... just... why do you keep following me???????!!?!??!
@@settingscon thought the same
@@detroitfunk313 You know not of what you speak.
@@detroitfunk313 makes sense
Wonderful video! Beethoven's development sections are basically vast, complex, improvisations. He was well known for improvisation in his piano days and legend has he even improvised for Mozart.
The French school of organ still keeps the tradition of improvisation and it is really fantastic.
Thank you !!!!
I've improvised my entire life. Still going strong. I'm fortunate that I've been allowed to and learn from amazing mentors including the late, GREAT - Connie Crothers from Williamsburg.
There's also an attitude to the classics that they are perfect, as if written in heaven, and to change them at all is sacrilegious. This, despite the fact that we often find different versions of a work by the same composer, see their crossings out and rewritings, and even recordings where they play their own works differently. I can't help but imagine alternate realities where a well known piece like Moonlight Sonata has a few different notes in each, and in every reality people complain if the notes aren't played exactly right as the maestro intended...
I adore your channel. I've learned so much from what you posted. You're so amazing and it blows my mind. I went to Berklee and there was NO ONE LIKE YOU there.
Nahre is my favorite person on RUclips!! 😍🥰🤩
She is the best!
I can listen to her talk all day, such a cool person
every sound field episode is pure gold. Thanks for the great content.
Thank you. I always felt like it couldn't be true that classical musicians don't improvise and you proofed me right :)
I think that you missed one last reason why classical musicians don't improvise:
We live in this hyper-romantic era where the composer is often considered more important than the musicians that play the music. The interpretation often strives to be The Composer's Intention™️ rather than what actually sounds good, and under that frame, there's no room for improvisation.
I would love to hear your improvements on Beethoven . I'm tired of him not sounding so good.
I would like to think that improvisation stopped with mechanical recording, but the evidence is that it was in decline long before, with fully written-out scores.
Perhaps we could blame the impulse behind fundamentalism, in the form of "strict constructionism?"
Lmao the TM trademark
LOVED this video!! Nahre Sol, you were informative and you were killer while improvising. LA Buckner and you sounded great!
The track at the end🔥
As a jazz musician I've never charted my practice. I love you. I wish I had your discipline.
This drummer guy kicks serious ass. Amazing groove. You see improvisation is not something you learn. its about letting go
I listen to jazz since a little kid. The improvisation also affects me on how to react in life. No direct rule in life, and need to improvise. As long as i can reach goal, the steps mostly improvised. Thank you for the music....
"Spontaneous innovations cannot occur in music which is intended to be more a replication of from 1790 than a musical event of today." (8:30)
The irony of this quote is that it's often the musicians who are most into "historically-informed performance" who are most into improvisation. One example of this is Ton Koopman, and anyone who searchers for "Ton Koopman Menuet in G" can see what I mean. Other examples include Robert Levin, whom Nahre mentioned in this video :)
Yes, yes, YESSSSSSS, this video was much needed. I can't stand attending one more classical concert, listening to the same written stuff over and over, patronizing sheet music robots over and over. Well done, awesome video.
I learnt classical piano for 13 hard years as a boy. By the end of it, I felt like a glorified jukebox. My fingers could 'play' things, but I had no understanding of the bigger picture. The obsession in the world of classical music with what I think of as musical semantics and the complete lack of care towards how music 'works' in a structural sense, which if you think about it, should be 90% of music education, is why if you're a big picture thinker it can be incredibly frustrating. I look back and realise that I was uninspired and exhausted with it because I don't really care if I held a note for a fraction of a second too long or if my glissando wasn't perfect. I care about the overall sound and aesthetic quality which is created largely by specific melodic, harmonic and rhythmic choices selected from the vast, near infinite probability/choice space of different pitches, tunings, absolute and relative relationships of frequencies. I remember once being told by a teacher, who himself was a trained and graduated 1st violin that 'modes were nonsense' - even then as a relatively uneducated 16 year old, I felt suffocated by the blinkered attitude to it. I realise now that music is vast, expansive and rich with choices. I think modern composers and instrumentalists including Jazz players are probably the way to go if you want to learn about how music actually 'works'. The great irony is that all the great classical composers would agree with my sentiment - they were also more interested in how music is formed and created than small picture thinking and most of them were prolific, virtuoso improvisers.
I agree with you , surely the great composers would have been proud of the jazz and its sub genres, not an imitation but new music inspired by classical music
Gosh i love life sometimes.
It's incredible to be able of learning on youtube and hearing people talking about music whenever i want.
This jam at the end is really cool, i love the energy of both of you.
At about 4:15 I was thinking, you should check out Gabriela Montero, and right then you mentioned her! Just heard a beatiful improvisation that she did on BBC3.
I love it when I go to a classical concert and the performers bring themselves to the music. I don't want to hear the same thing I can get on a CD! I feel blessed to have a local orchestra that embraces this- St Paul Chamber Orchestra.
This guy and girl have such good chemistry omg
These videos reflect such care and love for music and I live for this!
Bruce Lee - "Absorb what is useful. Discard what is useless. Add to it what is your own."
I had to repeat ‘dark Barney’ for 30 mins.... it’s so dark... it’s so masonic....it’s soo beautiful.....
That Barney theme was amazing!
Ohhh please do more jams together. No matter what the topic is. Super fun to listen to