How thick is a sharpie mark?
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 4 сен 2024
- In this video we answer the burning question of just how thick a standard Sanford Sharpie mark is. We use our high resolution Johansson indicator and some gage blocks to take precision measurements of Sharpie thickness.
so *thats* why I can't grind square! sending sharpies out for calibration asap.
kidding aside: fun video!
Nice to see you here! Love your content :)
Rofl!!!
Perhaps a good and proper Professional Silkscreen Printer attitude might fix this industry-wide black hole ???
Dear old Tony, you could have told us about that 3 years ago!
You sent me here
I told my wife that every time I paint a room it gets a little smaller and she thought I was nuts. I win.
You may have won, but she is probably correct ;-)
The problem with these statements is that they aren't mutually exclusive. There is no winning an argument with the wife, I'm afraid.
How in Germany do you paint then. I can't imagine they would want you to strip the 3 layers b4 painting. Oh the environmental horror!!
Take this win, go to the woods, celebrating with a bonfire and a cryptic shrine you can look onto later on in your next years of bahhumbug moments when you can't argue with nonsense, and for each shrine, increase your monthly purchases of duraflame logs and hotdogs.
@@padraicmcguire108 theres no way this is true. when you move out you are required to paint the room
I need to borrow that so I can measure the raise I got this year
+CrossesbyCharlie You got a raise? ;^)
Not really. The say I did but my checks are less than what it was before
They aren't even pretending to have given us any raises this year... costs for health insurance went up again...
+chemech hope and change.
Haha, beautiful!
Very interesting! Thanks.
+Applied Science Hey Ben,
Thanks for stopping by. I really liked the router you showed the other day. I seem to recall you are local to the SF bay area. Drop me a note sometime.
All the best,
Tom
oxtoolco w
Applied Science I
Nice to see you here as well! Also love your content! Looks like a few of you famous guys are here :)
@@staticinteger *class recognize class.*
I personal find it amazing that we can even measure this unit at all. interesting
if you want your mind blown, check out LIGO. it has the ability to detect changes in length of as little as 1/10,000th the diameter of a proton. www.ligo.caltech.edu/page/facts
It is nopt that big if you go metric :) Few microns precision is actualy reachable with some EDM machines.
@@AL6kar it really isnt. I work as a CNC-Lathe Machinist and I paint my workpieces with sharpie and scrape that off to get a perfect zero point
@@AL6kar using metric or imperial measurements makes zero difference in the accuracy of the machine.
@@Iowahurler82 Sure, but a lot of those who use imperial, when mentioning 1/1000" assume that it is some insane precision, and "one tenth" is beyond reach, unless you are scrabing. When in reality, a good machine and machinist can deliver 10um.
RUclips recommendations at 5 in the morning: Do you want to see a guy measuring the thickness of a pen in a thousands of an inch?
The answer is always yes
Great, now I'm going to be paranoid about cleaning off my layout marks. Definitely makes sense. We have to deal with the thickness of ink on paper in the printing world. A flat 4 foot tall stack of paper going into a press can be half a foot taller on one side coming out if there is more ink on that side. We have to use shims to keep the stacks level. Great video.
interesting!
Merlin Magnus That is crazy, 6 inches difference because of the ink. Cool to know though ☺
Is it swelling or actual ink thickness?
I get three microns from 120 millionths, not 30. 30 microns is greater than one thou, right? Or am I getting the math wrong somehow?
@@jonwatte4293 quick google search, 30 microns is 1.1811 thou
Here on old Tony's reccomendation. I do like this kind of stuff.
Same here! On both statements
Same here.
Ditto.
Used to work as a precision machinist at Professional Instruments Co in MN. We had quite a collection of Mikrocators. Even had one that read to 0.25 millionths. 2 millionths full scale range! It was frequently broken, but Johanson would repair and recalibrate it!
I’d love to hear about your time at PI. I have a great admiration for that company.
It seems that there is not many people using metric here, since .0001" is 2.5 microns and not 25 like it says in the video :)
Came to the comments immediately to look for this correction.
Also I was recently in a factory in Sweden and saw quite a few of these old CEJ test indicators. They're a pretty nifty design: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johansson_Mikrokator
@J :) American here that watches a lot of British TV. It is surprising even after all these years that Brits still throw imperial measurements into their conversations. You also have weird ways of pronouncing some words but every now and then out comes an American pronunciation. And of course there's the whole driving on the wrong side of the road. I think I've gotten used to it and then I get scared again until I realize that this is a British video and you guys normally drive on the wrong side of the road.
@@davefoc It is funny how we American speak English but still think we have the correct pronunciation over the Brits.
@@ntdnguyen85 that is insanely funny for a Swede :p
Everyone knows a black one is thicker than a blonde one, and a red one is about in the middle.
grumpybill you mean the red one is an absolute lunatic!!!! 😂😂😂
@@kalikasurf now, now, no need for stereotypes.
(Yes, lunatics!!!!!!
Crazier than shit house rats, all of them.
shhhhhhhh they will hear us...)
grumpybill 😂😂
Found the engineer.
Yeah, RCH is better than imperial and metric
Today, on "Shit I Didn't Know I Needed Know Instead of Sleeping '
Tom,
Interesting methodology there!
Traditionally, some inks have been similar to shellac - india ink in particular - and the pigments are ground extremely fine.
Dykem is a lacquer product, and the pigments and binders in lacquers quite typically run to ~3 mils dry film thickness (0.003" DFT)
Your industrial painting coatings generally start at 3 mils DFT, and can get quite thick - we've specified some coating systems at work that ran to ~10 mils (~250 micrometers) after 3 coats were applied.
Needless to say, the guys in a paintshop aren't using the same kind of gauge that you demonstrated, but their QC instrument calibration people may very well do something like this...
Cheers!
Eric
I came here from Project Farm. Someone in the comments posted a link to your sharpie video. Thank you for sharing.
Now, I'd like to see you test your concern about thermal effects. Hold one gage block in your fist for a minute, and see whether the expansion is measurable.
I don't remember who it was (maybe here), but he was using some tool and showing differences by simply blowing on a piece of metal.
No doubt it will change.
@@scottr939 ruclips.net/video/UG6LV8v8W-0/видео.html
W R Moore wrote in Foundations of Mechanical Accuracy that holding an 18” reference bar in bare hands will expand it beyond its tolerance.
If you like this video get that book. It is the same book RobRenz mentioned in the video referenced above
He specifically used metal tools so that he didn’t touch it with his hands. Obviously he knows there would be a measurable difference.
I wasn't expecting the RvB reference, you sir have my like.
Wow, they're an order of magnitude thicker than I would have guessed! I never imagined layout lines on a block could actually affect 10ths readings. Very cool.
I have a similar gage, different brand, and performed the same test with similar results. I wouldn't have thought that I could measure the thickness of ink, but indeed I can! Thanks for the reality check.
Tom
I watched this when it first came out. Had to come back and watch it again. In my machining road I’m traveling, I look at stuff differently as I gain more experience. Thanks for all you do.
Looks like you are getting a ToT bump! Always good stuff from Tom Lipton!
This is the best video on measuring the thickness of a sharpie line that I've seen. Well done.
"Magic with measuring tools" is always fun! Please do more. Like measuring heat expansion and what have you. Actually a systematic course in metrology in general would be super super interesting. Other than that... what does a "fancy gauge" like that one cost?
I predicted the red sharpy to be a more dense deposit, having worked with dye pigments for a few years. The application method of the engineer dyes, as you said, were less controllable and this was reflected in the results. Great article.
Hi Wrench,
Thanks for the comment.
Cheers,
Tom
this was on my YT recomended a day after watching the old tony's sqaure video , YT magic right here
Fancy bit of kit that no one seems to want let me near.
Once while I was grinding a thing and was curious how thick a sharpy mark was I ground the surface I was working on, took a few extra really light passes and spring passes. Then backed off a thou, sharpied the surface, and snuck up on it about 0.0001" at a time. Got down to 0.0002" with no change then noted it go from black to grey on the 0.0001" pass. Another pass at half a tenth and it was still barely visible.
Huzzah for science, confirming findings via a variety of methods.
Thanks for adding dykem to my repository of knowledge.
Looks like each thickness is a function of the viscosity of the carrier fluid, minus the volatile solvent. The thicker ones leave a thicker residue after drying. The better the coverage of the dye, the less viscous the carrier needs to be, therefore the residue layer will be thinner after drying.
The most variation between same markers probably from " blotches " at beginning/ end ,of strokes.
I LOVE the floating glass arrow indicator on the gauge face... super cool.
Would be interesting to see how much thickness, if any, cold blue would add.
Hm. I would like to see that. Or if it would remove thickness, since it's a form of oxidation. Got me very curious
I was wondering the same. While it builds up a layer of oxide, it oxidizes away some of the steel in the process. Will it be less or more after that? Will it maybe even out to a point where differences aren't measurable anymore? We must know!! 😄
@@LeglessWonder cold blue IS copper sulfate + hypo ,so it will have thickness.
@@bobbob8229 but does that thickness coincide with the amount of steel being used up or not, Im guessing its not 1/1 because thats not always how chemistry works.
@@TheUnchosenOne Yeah, I want to know now haha
Love your vintage HP voyager series calculator at the end! I still have my HP16C.
I think I need one of these just to drive my wife crazy with the squeak sound it makes when you slide.
Nicely done. it is good to be able to answer those questions that wake us up in the middle of the night.
I just stumbled on to this video as a suggested video on youtube. Idk why they suggested it, other than the fact that I watch some of AVE's videos. The moment that you got that first measurement on the thickness of a sharpie mark had my jaw on the floor. I don't think I've ever seen such a tiny quantity measured in front of my eyes like that. Cool stuff!
+Jacksirrom Hi Jack,
Glad you liked the show. Thanks for the comment.
Cheers,
Tom
@@RazaXML Too much cussin?
@@RazaXML Tom is FAR from a AvE copycat and he's been making quality videos for a long time. But hey blacklist away because we wont miss you.
@@southjerseysound7340 IDK how Raza could put them in the same camp at all. Maybe ve is just an anti-machining nut.
I deeply enjoyed this video. I don't think it could have been done better, to be honest. The camera work and editing are both excellent, your english is clear, your notations are tidy and easily legible, and the method of the experiment was superlative.
I feel privileged to have been invited for a short look at how you think and work. Thank you.
+Hazel Hazelton Hi Hazel,
Thanks for the nice words. I had fun doing it.
Best,
Tom
Great to watch. Interesting and thought provoking.
Stuart
im impressed with how thorough you are
Isn't 120 millionths of an inch 3.1 microns instead of 31? or more accurately 3.048?
I was like, no way aluminum foil is the same thickness as sharpie, and then realized that there is 10x typo
I have to admit, this is one cool video. Thanks for doing all the work to satisfy my inner nerd.
" a gauge block roughly 10mm" - that sounds actually pretty funny to metric folks ...
@the machinist not at all, it's clearly used to gauge whether something is roughly 10mm ;)
I died a little on the inside when I saw the surface of the block a bit scratched.
@@JohnDoe-fz3nu LOL.....THAT and him grabbing the GB with a pair of metal pliers. I worked in a PME Lab and we could only touch the GB's while wearing the white gloves. Since he was only using the damaged GB's for "comparison"....his use of the word "roughly" was probably appropriate.
@@CactusforceX I always thought 10mm was.3937''
@the machinist yeah but then the joke wouldn't work. what am I, made of comedy?
Great video Tom, always good to see something tested and not guessed at. Way beyond any tolerance I will ever encounter but interesting as hell.
Great Idea of using a sharpie mark as a gauging shim.
They make .ooo25 in.Thk.
Mylar. Used in capacitors.
Works GREAT.
I used to use sharpies to shim parts on the surface grinder because we didn't have shim stock that thin. Works great, and you really get to know how much to put down after a while
So now the important Question. How does the Needle on that Indicator work?!? I paused the Video a hundred times, but can't figure it out.
For anyone interested, i found this video explaining the indicator ruclips.net/video/_VfXMs4iIYk/видео.html
@@dave1812 Thanks for finding this and sharing! Amazing to think it's just a spring, a screw, and a bit of twisted brass foil. So simple only a true genius could have invited it.
I found it interesting, regardless of the argumentative comments proving/disproving below. I find it amazing that there is the mechanical means of measurement to such a minuscule amount.
*Writing on a gauge block* triggered me so hard! I don't even like _holding_ them for too long...
Thumbs up & a new sub. Now I know how to answer this question when people ask! I'm an old machinist who has been pondering things similar to this my entire life. I feel validated that I'm not the only one who cares!
Hey Tom, it doesn't seem like 100 millionths when you try to get it off your hands. :-)
+Dennis Skerb Good one Dennis. Got a laugh out of that one.
Best,
Tom
That's because it isn't. Your skin wicks it down. :)
Very interesting video, thanks for putting in all this effort! Caught your RvB callout there, that's one crossover I never thought I'd see!
Thumbs up for your HP calculator. I have a HP-41CV. Greatest calculator ever made!
Loved the video also :D
+John Creasey
Pretty sure Tom's is a 15C... wonderful calculator and worth a fortune these days. I have an emulator on my Mac that get's daily use. RPN is the only way to fly...
+John Creasey Hey John,
I'll have to drag out my HP collection for you guys. I have been using a 41CV for nearly thirty years at work. Thanks for the comment.
Cheers,
Tom
+John Creasey I burned up my 41-CV in grad school... and my first 32S has a busted 4 button...
Other than that, I love RPN, and now use whichever 35S is closest to hand - work, briefcase, home office, etc... ;^)
All the Best,
Eric
oxtoolco That would make an awesome video Tom! I have the card reader for mine, but it doesn't really work properly anymore unfortunately.
+John Creasey
I think I read somewhere the rubber rollers in all those readers dried & shrunk with age. While on HP calculators, has everyone seen this?
www.hpmuseum.org/
I thoroughly enjoyed this video.
I would sleep better at night had you verified zero on the test gage as well as the control gage.
Very interesting and your follow up question is, how thick is the oil film left from a finger wipe to remove dust?
+Chris Stephens My electron microscope says 2 ten millionths
Negligible then, well it is for my purpose .:>)
This reminded me of a time I was using my new mitutoyos to measure Graham crackers. One was .002“ off and my friend annoyed by this display said "better call the company"
Tight spc table! That is practically useful data for tomorrow's mechanical nightmare. Content where you break down your interpretation of just a table of dimensions you took is gold.
"any red vs. blue fans out there?"... What that a Halo reference?
Michael Gimbel I was wondering the same exact thing
@@WPXTacoMan477 it most certainly is!! RVB!!!
Will I dream?
Not just a halo reference, but a roosterteeth reference along with it
/r/UnexpectedRT
I like this kind of stuff. Never really gave a thought to the size of a sharpie mark.
Lol, I'm going to feel like a loaded heifer with a yardstick next time i pull out my vernier.
I have about ten questions concerning this tool .,, but suspect the answers will be found watching the rest of your vids. :)
It's psychological with the different sharpie colors. The red makes you unconsciously slightly more angry so you press slightly harder leaving a thicker mark. And your temperature rises slightly transferring a tiny fraction more heat to the block. I didn't go through all 530 comments to see if someone already made this one. Sorry if it's a repeat. Great job
So, if there is ever a revisit, I'm curious to know whether the guage would rise and fall if it were passed over the sharpie lines or would it plow through the pigment?
+Paul Culbert You are wright. May be, to avoid the plunger to dig inside the ink, (like the operater said) while passing over, we could freeze the ink by placing the gage block into a freezer....
+Paul Culbert Hey Paul,
The stylus pressure on this unit is pretty high. It might work with a larger diameter contact face. Thanks for the comment.
Cheers,
Tom
This may not be relevant or already have been mentioned, but if you are using the same cleaning solution over and over you are basically cleaning it with a dilute version of the dye/ink and I’d wonder if the residue could leave any build up that might effect your results. Great video either way!
That was cool, glad Tony sent me over!
Where would .000001" matter?
I understand .0002 but wow!
these are questions asked in a toolroom almost yearly. thanks now i have the real answer
Great Test. Would you also test Dykem High Spot bearing Blue and Canode Bearing. The type we use when scraping ways. Rich
+Richard King Hi Richard,
Good idea. I have some of both on hand. Any suggestions on a consistent method of applying them? Small standard brush or foam paint roller? Thanks for stopping by.
Best,
Tom
What if you were to take the measurement of the clean gauge block then do a rub like if you were scraping it, then measure again?
what about creating some kind of shade-scale chart for comparison, that reveals the thickness of the blueing on the surface?
@@oxtoolco best applied secretly -- on tool box knobs. 😂
your videos are so calming. I feel like I'm at the seaside when I watch your videos
I came here because TOT commanded it ... but now I want to say that there is evidently a reason Michael J Caboose is so thick.
Been waiting for a RvB reference in the comments...
I was about to cry out in anger that I've been tricked, backstabbed, and maybe, quite possibly, bamboozled.
@@3dpyromaniac560 6tzZyzszz
@@3dpyromaniac560 ZzsZ
As someone whose taking a lot of readings for accuracy and repeatability, I feel your recording pain! Thanks for all your videos - I've enjoyed watching all your videos and I've learnt a lot from you and the machining 'gang' and been able to apply it in my work.
+Phill Scott Hey Phil,
The killer was the fumes from the dykem and the solvent. Hey but nothing is too much for my viewers! Thanks for the comment.
Cheers,
Tom
Can you please use that indicator to show just how much slips and gauges change in size as they are handled please? Just how critical is it to be temperature aware when using fixed dimension gauges?
The magic number is 13e-6 per Kelvin for steel, what else is there to know?
@@aleksandersuur9475 .283 times Deg. f. Will get ya close. Used in machine shop to determine shrink fits 😛
Good video. Our shop would use beechem layout fluid to coat grinding arbors when a bushing liner id would be + .0005 to .001 too big for the standard grinding arbors. Most arbors had .001 taper over about 8-10 inches of length. Most of the bushing we ground were in the 2-3 inch id range for die posts.
Using sharpie marks as a shim just blew my freakin mind.
Great fun video Tom, fun to see just how the diff. is in the products. I am now glad I use the red dykem. Thanks. Randy
Great job. I love the Scientific stuff :-)
Great video. I especially like the HP calculator.
how does the display on that gauge work?
If it’s anything like a dial indicator ,
There is the stylus part, which touches the object to be measured, and on that stylus, further into the measuring device , there are teeth on it that mesh with a cog/gear. As the stylus moves upwards, the gear rotates into a bunch of reductions and is kept in tension by a small spring resisting the rotation of one of the gears in the system. At the end of the gear train , one will be connected to the little arm that indicates the position against the background
There could be many styles, but this is one style I have seen in a cheap dial indicator. Maybe it’s more refined in something as precise as ten millionths of an inch !
I could not be more wrong , the mikrokrator seems to have its own refined style of displaying measurement using a twisted bar that rotates .
Do a search for mikrokrator and how it works and there was a nice video in the top few results.
Good job on this experiment Tom! I wasn't surprised to see the amount of thumbs down on the video though. For some machinists and for most newbies, a millionth to them is a different language. Some have problems even thinking in tenths (of thousandths). Until you've worked in millionths or even tenths and used indicators or other devices to measure and confirm, it can be beyond one's comprehension. Working in a clean room environment for several years, where the temperature and humidity must be controlled to + or - 1 degree F and + or - 2% humidity gave me an appreciation for these microscopic measurements. I have actually seen people use dust as a shim in that environment to gain a tenth or two in height! Thanks Tom!
Interesting experiment. Friendly question... Tempature being vital, how can you justify dropping your variable test gauge into volatile solvent and quick dry with a compressed air can (both chilling the gauge)? Why is this not done to the verification gauge? Not follow the same thermal process, the verification gauge is no longer valid for this experiment.
Very interesting demonstration. I regular work with tolerances of .0002-.0005 across 2-3 inches, I have found it very tricky to explain that to many customers. This may help with visualizing these numbers. That Johansson is sweet!
Thank you for the vid!
Marc
Nice video! But at 4:30 the 0.0001" is 2.5 micron, not 25, if I get the math right. This reflects the general problem with imperial units: it's easy to make mistake when talking 1/1000 vs 1/10,000 on an inch, but it's harder to mess 2.5 vs 25 micron. Please, please, use metric system, people...
Take your metric system for a long walk off a short pier.
Awesome data, I use the red sharpie because everybody else used black now they are coping me so I guess it is time to go back to black to a smaller error lol. Amazing to see how the layout fluid was so much thinker. I’ll remember that next time I got to touching off on the surface grinder. Thank you for the little details and showing the card too.
Hhmmmm I have a one tenth error in my vice jaw. Gonna "sharpie Shim" it and run it under the wheel!
The popsicle stick, as a pointer, when giving a narrative that is in the millionths range, is kinda hilarious. Counter intuitive to what you think when you think of Berkeley work. Love your videos!!
Hi Charlton,
I found something even better. Chopsticks! I added some heat shrink tubing to the ends. They work great. Thanks for the comment.
Cheers,
Tom
25 microns seems huge. My 3D printer can do 50
Alright, checked it, that's not 25 microns but 2.5
@@NicksStuff - We call that a metric tenth.
@@bobjames6284 I tend to use the past tense more often 😉
Tom,
Your test is valid, despite what some may say. It was methodical, (to a higher degree than most would strive for), certain to provide reliable results with a high degree of dependability. I admire your thoughtful evaluation of reality! Carry on!
Brad
cool idea. of course, for proper pedantic weenies, you need to calculate the standard deviation, and probably talk to some of the statisticians at the lab and find out how significant the results are. :-)
as a tool and die maker I have made some precision tools like vise and angle plates ect. When grinding square, I would step and flip grind it into square. When I was a few tenths out, I would use a sharpie line to act as the step to tilt the part then grind then flip. after puting a mark on the work, I would lightly slide the part over the plate. I have gotten work to within a half a tenth this way
So, Mr. Bozo stopped by your shop, and had the sniffles?
+Paul Frederick Bozo Boogers
another great video, Tom! I've always wondered about this after wheeling over Sharpie marks on panels. I've run over Sharpie marks in my English wheel, and the anvils will impart an imprint of the marks into the panel.
Why in Hell do some people give this vid a thumbs down? Do they own stock in Dykem?
+randall williams Having watched videos on RUclips for years, I had only found one video that had no thumbs down. I always ask myself the same question: "What the fuck are these people smoking?"
+randall williams Professional trolls -- malice is their middle name
+randall williams a lot of people are just pieces of shit
+Juan Rivero I'm no professional, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn.
Prussian blue is a color, not a product. The old-timers used copper sulphate solution. I just bought a tube of oil paint in, guess what, prussian blue. I am going to try it for scraping.
Hey Tom!
As someone who is obsessed with doing things the right way, it's awesome to see someone work with the level of precision and care that you do.
It's a dying art with few masters, you're one of them.
Peace man, all the best
Tell my buddy I want a really good finish on something
He tells me it’s perfect.
*whips out the MIKROKRATOR*
Yep, great stuff!!!! Thanks for taking the time to do this!
How many of you are sent by TOT? 😂
I was.
Thanks, Tom. Valuable info, and I certainly don't have measuring tools fine enough to do this stuff.
I knew dyekem was thick, I didn't realize that sharpie was that thick. I had always wondered about it, thanks for the knowledge.
This is a very neat idea, it makes me wonder what else we use every day the thickness of it all, or the differences in it.
Interesting. I noticed your old HP calculator in the background. Great calculator, I don't think they make them like that anymore. I think mine is about 40 years old and still going strong. Loved the design because it fits in a shirt pocket very nicely.
Reminds me of measuring the size of an Oleaic Oil molecule in science way back when.
Its amazing how accurate you can measure with that thing. That is capable of damn near atom level measurement.
Hi Tom! I remember seeing this a few years back and looked it back up today. Thank you for sharing!
nice work Tom , i learn something new from every one of your videos .
Liked the video. Liked the procedure of putting the marks on the bottom.
I've used sharpies since they came out, or at least since I was aware of them, because the dykem is inconsistent. Nice to find a channel that I can relax and watch and enjoy. I recently bought an Iron City blacksmith vice(5"), and ran across your little bullet vice project. Still have some of those to watch. I subbed, and I don't sub to very many, nice to see some experience at work.
Years ago in metrology lab we measured the weight of our signatures. I remember that lab exercise more than any other.
They could measure the deflection of a fly landing on a one foot section of rail road rail. -- in the50's.
(Don't remember where i read that) 😛
Bob Bob Are you sure the article was not about deflection of fly ash beam? 🤪
@@rok1475 no - house fly.
Was in THE AMERICAN PEOPLE ENCYCLOPEDIA.
( an uncommon but highly technical work )
Bob Bob
Never mind the deflection - I want to know how did they train the fly to land at the right spot and then sit still while they were taking measurements.
RUclips: Wanna see how thick a sharpie mark is?
Me: Uhhh, sure