To me, the biggest issue with J menuing is that the things the player needs to track do not feel aligned with the core game. The first two games establish and communicate how the world responds to the player's inputs pretty well. As a result, the parts where the player does need to keep in mind are part of those games' progression. Meanwhile, J Menuing requires the player to keep in mind the timings of the kill order and menu shuffle. The core game is built on navigating a shuffled menu to kill enemies with the right attacks in the right order. The shuffling being on a timer hampers the experience, because the player already has to track the 10 second timer that the game is built around, so they have less mind space for additional time tracking. There is quite a bit that could be done in J Menuing to improve its gameplay, but most of it would be simple enough if it was caught in the concept stage. 1. Instead of a physical and magic attack, it should have been a fire and ice attack. That way, the player can intuitively know that the blue ice attack doesn't harm blue slimes and the red fire attack doesn't harm red slimes. 2. Make the neutral slime a different colour. This shade of purple looks more like blue to a lot of people, which causes a lot of confusion. Maybe the neutral slime could be green or yellow? 3. Instead of the menu and kill order being shuffled on a timer, it could be shuffled after the player performs an action. That way, it contributes to the core gameplay of menu navigation while letting the player understand why it is being randomised. To help this, maybe a chiptune wind/shuffle sound would also be nice.
I agree with this being a big factor, primarily because it becomes difficult for the player to learn with the time crunch. It also becomes more difficult to learn when there are multiple reasons why the player's actions were failing; Vykri got confused about the colors representing physical / magic attack vulnerabilities around 12:04 - 12:09, in part because right as he was about to test his hypothesis with a physical attack on the red enemy at the bottom, there was a kill order shuffle and the attack failed due to "Wrong kill order!" but it wasn't obvious with the only feedback being the text bubble on the bottom of the screen, especially because so much text flashes by in there while the player is trying to focus on the combat. I think with more clear feedback such as a specific visual or audio queue that denotes the WHY of an attack failing, it would be more clear feedback for the player to learn the mechanics and might make it more enjoyable rather than frustrating.
@@jasperlooman562 Ooh, audio queues for different reasons definitely seems like it would have helped clear up my confusion. You're right about it being difficult to read while playing. I wonder if just making small changes like that would have made it less frustrating or if there's something wrong with the design at its core.
one of the problems j-menuing has is that it’s knowledge discovery is learned through trial and error, which can be frustrating, instead of finding it out through the game telling you like in the other ones. (of course, the game doesn’t have to tell you it directly, it could be told through things like puzzles) it almost feels like a reskinned mario maker pick-a-pipe level, there’s no learning to it, it’s just picking each option and seeing if it works. another problem is that it’s mechanics are out in the open. where as the interesting thing with the other games featured here are always there, it’s just that they were hidden until you learned of the mechanics existence.
The last game has a combination of problems but I think the obvious one is the flow of the game. The flow chart goes to challenging too quickly because of the timer when you haven't yet learned the mechanic so it's frustrating. It dousn't leave time to think. I think the timer should come in later and that would give more time to learn the game and already improve it.
Interesting take that the timer should come in later. In that case the game's loop would be like 1. Play in a sandbox for a bit to try and figure out the mechanics. 2. Test your knowledge of the mechanics in a timed challenge. 3. Potentially repeat steps 1 and 2 with a new mechanic, layering complexity and possibly seeing how previously learned mechanics interact with new ones. I could see a game with that loop being very interesting if done correctly. Good thought!
I feel like the lack of feedback on the 3rd game removes the feeling of discovery when you find out how to kill an enemy. Since there is little to no feedback you're not actually sure that you discovered something new or made progress. In Tunic however it is very obvious that you make progress and understand the hints you've just been given, either by unlocking new secret areas that open up visually or by very obvious audio cues. I also think the kill order is quite confusing since personally I don't really know any other game that does this, I feel like it could be better displayed if the numbers are inside the monsters rather than beneath, and instead of swapping the numbers, I would swap the monsters position (and let them keep their number)
I agree. It didn't feel like discovery because the lack of feedback made me unsure if I discovered something or if I just got the kill by accident. Making it more clear that the enemy died BECAUSE my discovery was correct feels better than having to test several theories before going, "oh, I guess that first theory was right".
I think J-Menuing is bugged or at least doesn't have its timings right. At 11:48 you picked Magic vs 1 Blue which should have killed it but Kill Order Shuffle took effect during the attack animation while the shuffle animation was queued up (so you couldn't see the 1 change to 2) which forced you into Wrong Kill Order. Enemy colors should've been different too, the red + blue mix they picked is too close to blue which unintentionally created more friction than was probably intended.
Yeah, it was super unfortunate that the kill order shuffle happened at the exact time that I was testing my hypothesis of colors determining weakness. I don't think it's bugged, per say, but the kill order shuffle happening at random intervals that can take place during an attack is certainly not my favorite design decision they made haha.
Similar to what others are saying, but I'd describe it was failure to reward the player (and made that progression CONTINUE to be meaningful - I think is also really important here) that made the third game's experience bad. In all of the other games, when you hit a mark of progression it allowed you to immediately use your newfound capabilities. Beyond that, it also didn't punish you/get in the way in any form for trying to use those newfound capabilities either. J-Menuing, on top of it potentially being bugged, had conflicting mechanics that prevented you from actually utilizing your unlocked capabilities confidently/reliably, leading you to question if what you'd learned was even useful. In the first two games, the mechanisms played into the timers well to push you in a direction to improve and use your new capabilities. With J-Menuing, the added timer doesn't help push you forward in any meaningful way in my opinion. The combination of the menus, the random kill orders, and ADDED with the timer, meant you're fighting the experience more than actually discovering and progressing.
Great analysis! I think the biggest things you mentioned are that it shouldn't feel punishing to experiment and that I shouldn't have to question if what I'd learned was useful or correct.
Imho J-menuing main error is having purple too similar to blue. I wasn't able to distinguish them from my phone screen with highly lowered brightness. Also J-menuing allows you to beat a level by bruteforcing attack types. And if it is hard to figure out mechanic but easy to proceed some people (at least me) will just proceed.
The issue was clarity. The game was trying to tell you what you did wrong, but only in this tiny little text-box at the bottom that flashed away really quickly.
I saw it immediately and wondered why he didn't respond to it, but that is why playtesting exists. Too bad there is no time for that during the LD :D edit: for clarity, play testing by a bigger group. ;)
On J-Menuing: there seems to be no way for the player to control when menus or kill orders change. They just do. This leaves a nebulous period where the player asked to discover things through trial and error, remaining unsure whether something they are doing is affecting menu/kill order, which sort of leaves the stage of mastery in a rather unsatisfying conclusion. I feel the design would have been acceptable in a loose narrative with an ultimate goal, permadeath style. Even if the player never quite understood menu/kill order shuffle, there would still be a crowning achievement for mastery. Instead it is endless doubt (unless checking the spoilers). Unsatisfying.
On *J-Menuing,* I dislike how the game seems to add a time limit to the player's menu inputs, while the menu itself is *non-diagetic* _(as it would be in most games)._ Generally, when a time limit is put on something, it is supposed to affect the physics _(e.g, the character's movement in the game world),_ and the timer is paused when the player needs to do some menuing or read some dialog _(such as how dialog in _*_The Curse of Tencond_*_ pauses the ten second timer, allowing the player any amount of time to read)._ I believe that in the case of *J-Menuing,* the menuing should have its own speed limitations, and allow the player time to strategize, rather than just be limited by the player's own mouse movement and keypress speed. To improve upon the design, the menu could be made to look like physical levers and buttons, and each could take some amount of time to use. The player could be limited to only using one control at a time, but inputs would be bufferable to allow the player to easily complete a plan with optimal efficiency. _(the menu to be redesigned to show all controls at once, rather than having any menus embedded within others)_ The timer, each turn, would only start at the first control usage, so the player can have plenty of time to strategize. Also, wasn't paying a whole lot of attention, as I was watching the video while doing something else, but maybe a mechanic would be nice, where the previously discovered attributes of the current group of enemies would be listed perpetually for easy review.
not normalizing input wouldn't make zigzagging faster, it's only faster when moving at a diagonal. if you're moving straight down, diagonal down and directly down will be the same speed.
To me, the biggest issue with J menuing is that the things the player needs to track do not feel aligned with the core game. The first two games establish and communicate how the world responds to the player's inputs pretty well. As a result, the parts where the player does need to keep in mind are part of those games' progression.
Meanwhile, J Menuing requires the player to keep in mind the timings of the kill order and menu shuffle. The core game is built on navigating a shuffled menu to kill enemies with the right attacks in the right order. The shuffling being on a timer hampers the experience, because the player already has to track the 10 second timer that the game is built around, so they have less mind space for additional time tracking.
There is quite a bit that could be done in J Menuing to improve its gameplay, but most of it would be simple enough if it was caught in the concept stage.
1. Instead of a physical and magic attack, it should have been a fire and ice attack. That way, the player can intuitively know that the blue ice attack doesn't harm blue slimes and the red fire attack doesn't harm red slimes.
2. Make the neutral slime a different colour. This shade of purple looks more like blue to a lot of people, which causes a lot of confusion. Maybe the neutral slime could be green or yellow?
3. Instead of the menu and kill order being shuffled on a timer, it could be shuffled after the player performs an action. That way, it contributes to the core gameplay of menu navigation while letting the player understand why it is being randomised. To help this, maybe a chiptune wind/shuffle sound would also be nice.
Time limits on the last one, you need to give time to the player to get the mecanic if you dont tell it
I agree with this being a big factor, primarily because it becomes difficult for the player to learn with the time crunch. It also becomes more difficult to learn when there are multiple reasons why the player's actions were failing; Vykri got confused about the colors representing physical / magic attack vulnerabilities around 12:04 - 12:09, in part because right as he was about to test his hypothesis with a physical attack on the red enemy at the bottom, there was a kill order shuffle and the attack failed due to "Wrong kill order!" but it wasn't obvious with the only feedback being the text bubble on the bottom of the screen, especially because so much text flashes by in there while the player is trying to focus on the combat. I think with more clear feedback such as a specific visual or audio queue that denotes the WHY of an attack failing, it would be more clear feedback for the player to learn the mechanics and might make it more enjoyable rather than frustrating.
@@jasperlooman562 Ooh, audio queues for different reasons definitely seems like it would have helped clear up my confusion. You're right about it being difficult to read while playing. I wonder if just making small changes like that would have made it less frustrating or if there's something wrong with the design at its core.
one of the problems j-menuing has is that it’s knowledge discovery is learned through trial and error, which can be frustrating, instead of finding it out through the game telling you like in the other ones. (of course, the game doesn’t have to tell you it directly, it could be told through things like puzzles)
it almost feels like a reskinned mario maker pick-a-pipe level, there’s no learning to it, it’s just picking each option and seeing if it works.
another problem is that it’s mechanics are out in the open. where as the interesting thing with the other games featured here are always there, it’s just that they were hidden until you learned of the mechanics existence.
The last game has a combination of problems but I think the obvious one is the flow of the game. The flow chart goes to challenging too quickly because of the timer when you haven't yet learned the mechanic so it's frustrating. It dousn't leave time to think. I think the timer should come in later and that would give more time to learn the game and already improve it.
Interesting take that the timer should come in later. In that case the game's loop would be like
1. Play in a sandbox for a bit to try and figure out the mechanics.
2. Test your knowledge of the mechanics in a timed challenge.
3. Potentially repeat steps 1 and 2 with a new mechanic, layering complexity and possibly seeing how previously learned mechanics interact with new ones.
I could see a game with that loop being very interesting if done correctly. Good thought!
I feel like the lack of feedback on the 3rd game removes the feeling of discovery when you find out how to kill an enemy. Since there is little to no feedback you're not actually sure that you discovered something new or made progress. In Tunic however it is very obvious that you make progress and understand the hints you've just been given, either by unlocking new secret areas that open up visually or by very obvious audio cues.
I also think the kill order is quite confusing since personally I don't really know any other game that does this, I feel like it could be better displayed if the numbers are inside the monsters rather than beneath, and instead of swapping the numbers, I would swap the monsters position (and let them keep their number)
I agree. It didn't feel like discovery because the lack of feedback made me unsure if I discovered something or if I just got the kill by accident. Making it more clear that the enemy died BECAUSE my discovery was correct feels better than having to test several theories before going, "oh, I guess that first theory was right".
I think J-Menuing is bugged or at least doesn't have its timings right. At 11:48 you picked Magic vs 1 Blue which should have killed it but Kill Order Shuffle took effect during the attack animation while the shuffle animation was queued up (so you couldn't see the 1 change to 2) which forced you into Wrong Kill Order.
Enemy colors should've been different too, the red + blue mix they picked is too close to blue which unintentionally created more friction than was probably intended.
Yeah, it was super unfortunate that the kill order shuffle happened at the exact time that I was testing my hypothesis of colors determining weakness. I don't think it's bugged, per say, but the kill order shuffle happening at random intervals that can take place during an attack is certainly not my favorite design decision they made haha.
Similar to what others are saying, but I'd describe it was failure to reward the player (and made that progression CONTINUE to be meaningful - I think is also really important here) that made the third game's experience bad.
In all of the other games, when you hit a mark of progression it allowed you to immediately use your newfound capabilities. Beyond that, it also didn't punish you/get in the way in any form for trying to use those newfound capabilities either.
J-Menuing, on top of it potentially being bugged, had conflicting mechanics that prevented you from actually utilizing your unlocked capabilities confidently/reliably, leading you to question if what you'd learned was even useful. In the first two games, the mechanisms played into the timers well to push you in a direction to improve and use your new capabilities. With J-Menuing, the added timer doesn't help push you forward in any meaningful way in my opinion. The combination of the menus, the random kill orders, and ADDED with the timer, meant you're fighting the experience more than actually discovering and progressing.
Great analysis! I think the biggest things you mentioned are that it shouldn't feel punishing to experiment and that I shouldn't have to question if what I'd learned was useful or correct.
Imho J-menuing main error is having purple too similar to blue. I wasn't able to distinguish them from my phone screen with highly lowered brightness.
Also J-menuing allows you to beat a level by bruteforcing attack types. And if it is hard to figure out mechanic but easy to proceed some people (at least me) will just proceed.
The issue was clarity. The game was trying to tell you what you did wrong, but only in this tiny little text-box at the bottom that flashed away really quickly.
I saw it immediately and wondered why he didn't respond to it, but that is why playtesting exists. Too bad there is no time for that during the LD :D
edit: for clarity, play testing by a bigger group. ;)
On J-Menuing: there seems to be no way for the player to control when menus or kill orders change. They just do. This leaves a nebulous period where the player asked to discover things through trial and error, remaining unsure whether something they are doing is affecting menu/kill order, which sort of leaves the stage of mastery in a rather unsatisfying conclusion. I feel the design would have been acceptable in a loose narrative with an ultimate goal, permadeath style. Even if the player never quite understood menu/kill order shuffle, there would still be a crowning achievement for mastery. Instead it is endless doubt (unless checking the spoilers). Unsatisfying.
On *J-Menuing,* I dislike how the game seems to add a time limit to the player's menu inputs, while the menu itself is *non-diagetic* _(as it would be in most games)._
Generally, when a time limit is put on something, it is supposed to affect the physics _(e.g, the character's movement in the game world),_ and the timer is paused when the player needs to do some menuing or read some dialog _(such as how dialog in _*_The Curse of Tencond_*_ pauses the ten second timer, allowing the player any amount of time to read)._
I believe that in the case of *J-Menuing,* the menuing should have its own speed limitations, and allow the player time to strategize, rather than just be limited by the player's own mouse movement and keypress speed.
To improve upon the design, the menu could be made to look like physical levers and buttons, and each could take some amount of time to use.
The player could be limited to only using one control at a time,
but inputs would be bufferable to allow the player to easily complete a plan with optimal efficiency.
_(the menu to be redesigned to show all controls at once, rather than having any menus embedded within others)_
The timer, each turn, would only start at the first control usage, so the player can have plenty of time to strategize.
Also, wasn't paying a whole lot of attention, as I was watching the video while doing something else,
but maybe a mechanic would be nice, where the previously discovered attributes of the current group of enemies would be listed perpetually for easy review.
not normalizing input wouldn't make zigzagging faster, it's only faster when moving at a diagonal. if you're moving straight down, diagonal down and directly down will be the same speed.
You know what, I hadn't really thought about it, but you're right! I take it back, Curse of Tencond is literally unplayable haha