Modern vs Vintage Turntables: Fluance RT85 vs Pioneer PL-50A
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- Опубликовано: 2 окт 2024
- Doing another comparison between a 40+ year old turntable and a modern 2020's turntable?
This is NOT an attempt at a definitive test. I do not claim it to be anything other than a comparison between these two pieces of audio equipment. I also do not claim to be an "Audiophile". If I am, then it is only to the extent that my budget allows me to be.
Conditions of this Comparison:
Audio was recorded at the same levels using an external PCM recorder plugged directly into a Sony SQR 6650. Both RCA connects were input through the same PHONO stage in alternating order. The volume on the receiver remained the same. The cartridge and stylus were the same (Audio Technica AT-VM95ML) - both tracking at 1.75g. I considered using an acrylic "slip mat" on the Pioneer to even the playing field... but thought it would be more interesting to see how it performed as is with the original rubber.
* A note on the cartridge used*
There has been some disapproval about the Fluance not having the Ortofon 2m Blue (which it sold with) fitted to it for the comparisons. The Audio Technica AT-VM95ML (micro line) was used for two reason. 1) Having several of the AT-VM carts, it is very easy to set up and calibrate overhang, etc. for each of the turntables (which are often not the same settings) and then simply remove the ML stylus from one, and use it on the other - making for an accurate, unbiased comparison. Again, this was done for easy... not to slight the 2m Blue. The 2m Blue is NOT as easy to calibrate and can be VERY picky in this regard. 2) The AT-VM95ML leans a light more toward the mid-range and has an affinity for reproducing vocals with more emphasis. Since "vintage" audio can at times leans a little toward a "warmer", or deeper, sound profile, I felt a mid-range cart would be more balanced than the "brighter" 2m Blue.
These are my reasons for my decision to opt for this choice in cart/stylus. No turntable (especially the Fluance RT-85) should have to stand on a singular cart choice to be recognized as good. If the turntable is worthy... it should be able to use a variety of cart/styli. Otherwise, it is handicapped.
Fluance RT-85: $500 (with Ortfon 2M Blue)
Pioneer PL-50A: $350 (on Reverb right now)
REVERB: rvrb.io/1970-p...
Music: The Black Angels - Bad Vibrations
Sorry to see so many biased opinions. I compared the sound to a digital source in: ruclips.net/video/3jV6TnBC2nk/видео.html.
There is a vocal "one two three four" right after the needle drop. Clear as the daylight on the Fluance (3:10), absolutely nothing on the Pioneer.
Vocals are noticeably compressed on the Pioneer, much less compression artifact on the Fluance.
The pulsating synth comes out loud and clear on the Fluance. It is muted on the Pioneer, almost like in the far background.
To me the Fluance is a much more accurate player with a much more precise treble response, that may irritate some listeners.
But go back to the digital recording and just listen. The Fluance comes close, the Pioneer is stuck in the 70s. Boomy bloated bass, no details.
Before anybody responds with "you don't like vintage gear" I should say that I have a 1960s Pioneer PL-6A idler, a 1970s Connoisseur BD2/A and a Kenwood KD-770D.
None of these sounds as vague as that Pioneer in this clip.
Maybe it's a mismatch of the tonearm and cartridge or just a faulty turntable (bearing, belt, etc) that needs service but the recorded sound clip of this particular Pioneer is what it is.
There also seems to be a pitch difference between the two tables. I'd vote for the Fluance being more accurate vs the digital reference. The Pioneer sounds a tiny bit slower.
You can't glorify something just for your own wishful thinking. Faults are faults, not features. Listen again!
honestly, they both sound pretty bad compared to the digital reference. bad enough that it makes me think neither turntable is the weak link in the recording system here.
There’s a count in on the recording, it’s completely absent on the Pioneer. It’s there on the RT85…. “1,2,3,4”. The Fluance sounds much zingier and brighter IMO
Thanks much for the Black Angels tip
Very nice
Thanks! ✌
To me the difference is really quite stark and noticeable on this one compared to your other video. That lead guitar line in the opening is basically nonexistent on the Fluance. It's extraordinary! I had to go back and listen to it numerous times to contrast the two to make sure I wasn't hearing things on the Pioneer but it's just so clear and well defined on it compared to the Fluance which just loses it altogether. I've nothing against modern decks and the Fluance has been on my shortlist for some time as it's definitely a good looking machine. However I think if it's prone to losing this much detail in the music it may have to come off that shortlist. Goes to show what a difference a good tonearm makes.
Very good ear! And a valid observation. I, too, love the Fluance for it's sleek and sexy looks. It does offer some quality beyond that in the sound department, but I have found it very interesting to see how well these older, "vintage" decks are able to perform. Perhaps the "warmth" that is a part of their desirable character is a result of decades of failing internal components... if so, that little bit of magic has played to their advantage (at least, in some regards).
Thanks for watching, and the comment!
you are obviously anti Fluance. I don't hear this, and six of my buddies, who listened blind, didn't either
@@len9518 Anti Fluance? What are you talking about ha! As I said I'd been considering it for the longest time. I still think it's a damn fine looking table and I'm sure is great bang for the buck. In fact in recent months I'd been reconsidering it as a possible purchase, which I'd say is very much not anti Fluance in any way. But for me, listening on this specific sound test, the opening lead guitar line sounded much more recessed and set back than it did on the Pioneer which presented it more clearly. That's just what I heard, listening on my main system, headphones and through basic phone speakers I heard the difference every time. You may not have done but my ears aren't lying to me.
Also on further reflection the Fluance sounded like it was running slightly faster too. Which table is running at the correct speed who knows, we'd need the video uploader to measure each machine and tell us.
@@len9518 You're kidding right? I'm listening to this on my Macbook Pro from 2012 and the difference is strikingly obvious. The Pioneer sounds much better.
@@len9518 Interesting...I absolutely heard the laid-back nature of the Fluance. Maybe your listening source is the difference?
Honest and transparent , bravo!
Thanks! Precisely what I was trying to accomplish. Peace.
The Pioneer is way better than the Flatulence. Some of your viewers seem to be a bit misled when it comes to things like detail and overall sonic transparency; the ONLY thing that influences that is the cartridge being used---that's it. If you take the same cartridge and use it in 2 different tables, the sound quality will be the same (minus any variations in things like speed accuracy or turntable-induced noise)
Black angels for five minutes aint a bad thing
Indeed, sir. Peace.
The Fluance sounds compressed & boring. Btw, I`m listening on a reference system
Nice. What is your system comprised of?
@@tachikaze7 Won`t say you too much, diy`ed & heavily modified old suff
@@64fairlane305 Sounds like my kind of thing. Rock on 🤘
sounds like the pioneer is running just a tiny bit slower.... theres def a difference in the sound, but SO hard to pin down through the YT.... cool music
Thanks for watching the vid, and for the comment. I agree with you on the quality of YT audio and issues perhaps with audio-video syncing. I think that, at best, these videos I am sharing are a introduction into exploring the possible differences or similarities of vintage and modern turntables. They are by no means what one could consider definitive, and I have tried my best not to present them that way. Peace.
I also thought the pioneer was running a bit slower.
Having sold audio back when the Earth was still cooling -- When Dual, Pioneer, and Technics were "new", I agree with your idea of matching a cartridge to both tables. While I still have my old JVC, I do think that technology has improved over the years, and therefore would actually entertain having two tables. I do like the Fluance brand, and could very well pick up an 85, but also keep my JVC.
Ideally, that is the way to do it. Which is why I still own the Fluance and other vintage TTs. They each have their own unique signature sound. Peace!
Listening through earbuds, one issue is immediately apparent: The needledrop was made in mono from a stereo recording, and between the Pioneer and Fluance the stereo channels are swapped. There is a difference in musical elements that goes beyond simply the difference in turntables.
Despite this critical flaw in the test, that doesn't stop me from making an assessment: the Pioneer has the edge in low to low-mids, while the Fluance emphasizes the upper midrange.
Why would you listening to a home stereo system with cheesy "ear buds"? You need to get some *real* headphones(just don't get "Beats"; waaay to bass heavy & cheesy sounding). A Classic pair of Koss or Sennheiser or...Grados.
@@cardtrix1970 if I could hear the difference with what I used (AKG, and no, they're not buds with thumping rap bass), surely one could hear the same difference on nicer headphones, AND speakers.
The real question is, are you hearing what I'm hearing?
Why would you be listening to a "home" stereo with cheesy ear buds? You need to get a pair of Vintage Koss or Sennheisers or...Grados. The modern headphones are waaay to much bassy ; Stay away from anything modern unless it's very high end.
@@OldMusicOnVinyl1 No, because I don't have either turntable to form an opinion, nor, do I have the music. I would just never use ear buds on a home system. Invest in some nice headphones.
In addition...it's hard to form a solid opinion regarding music on a digital RUclips video. You Tube music videos are cool for what they are, despite their sonic weakness.
Frigg'n *LOVE* The Black angels. I first heard these great songs on the show Longmire and I really liked them, they had this kind of moody Goth sound. So, I looked up who they were and it was these guys. I have I think 3 or 4 of their albums now. AWESOME group! :D
Right on. Totally have a unique sound - Neo-psychedelic. Thanks for the comment. Peace.
Vintage every time for me :D
Easy. After listening to both options here, go listen to a lossless version of this song and you’ll hear the Fluance is providing the most accurate version of this song. I also prefer the minimalist look of the Fluance over the Pioneer.
Thanks for the comment. Peace.
the pioneer is dragging in speed, but that's only due to age... if they were both new with same needled... no difference.
The Pioneer sounds slower, pitched down slightly. I’d love to hear this album on my Avid for comparison.
Edit: Just listened to it from Qobuz via my Mola Mola Tabmaqui. Pitch wise, sounded closer to the Fluance.
Here’s a clip. ruclips.net/video/YEeleFWldyY/видео.html
great observation! thanks for sharing. And yeah, that album is awesome!
Peace.
Back in the 60's and 70's you could by a turntable without a tonearm. You could therefore by a tonearm of your choice and mount it on the turntable board. Also, you could buy a cartridge that worked well with the tonearm and end up with a system better sounding than most modern tables. Cartridges back then had higher compliances so you could track a record between 0.75 to 1.5 grams. Today they are less compliant and track at 2.0 grams and above.
Definitely the PIONEER, it's like hearing two differing mixing, The Fluance muffled the guitar.
Am I missing something? The RT 85 has the Orofin blue cartridge?
No, you haven't missed anything. The RT-85 does ship from Fluance with the 2M Blue. For the purpose of this comparison, I used an easier to swap out cart/stylus combo. Therefore, the use of the AT95ML in this video. Thanks!
There’s definitely a huge difference. I wonder if the relative setup is making a difference. The Fluance is pulling out the pulsating drone and losing the guitar riff a bit. The Pioneer sounds more balanced but not getting that drone as much. Is the stylus leaning against one groove wall especially on the Fluance? Maybe sharing the headshell is affecting azimuth or alignment?
Not having the ability to test these turntables anymore since I don't have them, I could not say for certain. However, you bring up a good point. The sharing of the cart on both 'tables could have been a factor in the issue you picked up on. Of course, I did that to be as fair as possible in the comparisons. I wish I could answer our question more directly... but unfortunately, I cannot. Peace!
The Pioneer wins both sonically and aesthetically BY FAR
Ones again a pioneer turntable wins the show
Can you tell me what songs those are
Sure. Music: The Black Angels - Bad Vibrations
I like the Pioneer better. However I prefer my vintage Duals over both of them
The 510 rules
@@Foxrock321 1229 does too, then again so does my other 9 duals
My Turntable is a 1985 JVC QL-Y66F / Ortofon 2m Black *Love the Sound*.
That's a nice combo!
Just came across your channel 👍. Thanks for introducing me to a piece of music and a band I have never heard before, nice one. May use the track on my wee channel. 😉 👍
Awesome! Always love discovering new music myself. Peace!
I wish there were new direct drive fully automatic units. All these new ones are belt drive and most are manual. I'm going to have to get a refurbished 1970s turntable to get what I want. I'd love to see a reissue of the Technics SL 1300, SL 1600, or even the 1900. Quartz lock would be nice too, maybe a SL 1301 😀. Would also be good to be able to get new parts for those models also. There are more non DJs than DJs buying turntables now, throw us a bone.
I like the way you think!
not really. and those turntables you mention are already 300-400€ refurbished, new from technics they would make then close to 2000€ with automatic... no thanks. buy used sl-1710
Cartridge is too far forward in the headshell if you have to turn it off center like that.
What this doesn’t factor in is that our individual hearing are not equal. Some may hear better/wider frequency response than others. If a persons top hearing range is say 12khz, even if a speaker goes up to 20khz that person will not hear the difference from a speaker that has a top end of say 14khz. This may explain why some hear no difference etc.
This is absolutely correct. Thanks for the comment.
Been looking at that Fluance for months but just don't want to buy something like a tt without hearing it in person and now I am even more hesitant so thanks alot! lmao. Decided to just buy a new cart for my 30 yr old Technics after this.
Thanks for the comment. Also, for other reading this as well... The Fluance RT-85 is a very good turntable. If it wasn't, I would have sold it already. Anyone wanting to buy one would not be disappointed. But it IS quite a bit of money. And there is something to be said for looking at the option of an older, often times more affordable vintage piece. The added benefit there is that you also become the caretaker of a little bit of audio history.
Regarding you choice to buy a new cart - sounds like a very wise decision! Peace.
The Fluance RT85 has an Ortofon 2m blue stylus, you should compare it like it is!
Thanks for the suggestion
The AT VM95 cart/stylus system is an easier one to use to make a comparison of this sort because it allows for the simple removal of the stylus from one cart to the other. This gave me the ability to have save time by having both carts pre-setup. Was it to bias the one way or the other...? Or put the RT85 at a disadvantage? No. The AT MicroLine used is a great stylus. I understand that the 2m Blue and the acrylic patter are what makes the RT85 an RT85... Otherwise it is identical to the models below it. But, to assume that the RT85 MUST have the 2m Blue in order to sound good, is a bit of a handicap if that is its only shining glory. It's a sound 'table. I personally do not prefer the 2m Blue over other carts I have - Nagaoka MP-110, Sumiko Rainier, for example. It is a matter of personal preference. None of those carts "downgrade" the RT85. Thanks for the comment. Peace.
I'm still using (only a couple times a month for kicks ) a mid '70's Pioneer t'table. works great to me and looks great. Stanton 681 cart. early '80's. fully auto., I believe a machine handles the critical needle / disc contact way better than my hands , especially if there is 'enhancement'. 90 % of time I use CD's actually prefer concert videos / DVD's if that's Grateful Dead / Oregon or A.Netrebko / LaTraviatta. the huge ? here is cartridge / tonearm match. Wow & flutter etc - a wash given popularity / capable engineering of '70's higher end products.
Live music on DVD is the best!
The Fluance needs the stylus it shipped for a fair comparison. That's one of it's features.
Yep.
I’m sure that if you were in the room with the sound then you’d probably find this pick up just fine as it is. The Pioneer is heavily masked/muted on some levels. If that’s to your taste then fine
It does fine as is.
Also, the 2M Red is not a cartridge to write home about. Ortofon lures you in with the low price, just to find yourself on the slippery slope of their marketing chart for revenue from upgrades...
@@TheOritek so ur saying the blue is? Then someone else might say the mofi 1500$ one is better and so on and so on... even the ones on the lp60x are good enough right? Unless of course ur trying to get the absolute best sound quality but then ur being less concerned about actually enjoying the music and instead, being a soundnazi- constantly analysing everything instead of enjoying? 2 each their own tho ofc...thats a very boomer thing
@@the.scarlet_witch.official Some music is enjoyable even played on a boombox....
That's not the issue. It's a matter of value. To my ears, the 2M Red is not the best value for a $100 budget.
If that's all you have then I'd recommend a cheaper cartridge. But that's me, and it may not be your preference.
I fool around with gear and dissect a subset of technical features to death, then modify something and then listen.
In the end, the goal is to listen to the music at its best. I take off the engineer hat and enjoy the musical experience.
Some say that audiophiles buy music to enjoy the gear... Well, in that case I'm definitely not an audiophile...
Pioneer. Period.
Could be more cartridge related
Funny, wish I saw this two days ago. I have the pioneer with the same cart as yours and decided to try the fluance to see if maybe newer was the way to go. It's pretty close but no need to pay $500 when my pioneer cost me $60.
Side note, only heard a few tracks so far and the bass seemed slightly lighter on the fluance .
I guess I'll need to spend more than $509 if I want a better turntable. Woe is me 😑
This has been my finding in the matter as well. This Pioneer, and others from the same era, seem to represent the low-end with a bit more "body" and warmth that can (depending on your taste) sound better. The Fluance is a great 'table. But it has sat in a corner, unplayed now for a very long time.
@@tachikaze7 thanks for the reply. I think I'll try working on my pioneer more to see if I can get the speed to be more stable instead. Otherwise , I'm gonna go with a project debut Evo . Just worried that it's not really an upgrade but more of a side grade
@@brunoch95 LOL! Side grade... That's funny. BUT... I think that is most likely what it will be. So, I have another video on my channel where I compare a Sansui SR-929 and a custom-built table I made. (if you have time, you should search it out.) That "Unicorn" turntable I built - while probably as good as one can get before moving North of $2k - is exceptional, but it was VERY hard to find how it was justifiably better than the Sansui. Built by me, the custom cost just over $800. If bought from a manufacturer, it would be closer to $1500. The Sansui... is 40 years old. It just blows my mind how well they made these vintage pieces back in the day.
@@tachikaze7 wow! That's interesting to hear. I'll check out the video too
@@tachikaze7 have you tried it with a different cartridge? Nagaoke 110 for instance. Or maybe a different phono amp? Fosi phono box 2 is supposed to give a pretty warm sound for 65 bucks.
What a beautiful sound system.
Thank you very much.
The Fluance sounds better… but the song is pretty crap for the sake of this comparison. Ok song, but not a good choice for a comparison video. Seems like a recurring theme on YT. 😊
Thanks for the comment. Peace.
Where is the Ortofon 2N Blue? It comes stock with the turntable so that is the one that should be used in the comparison.
Thanks for the comment... All of your wonderful questions and quite possibly the key to the meaning of life itself, will be answered if you read the Description (I guarantee you)... especially the part that looks like this:
** A note on the cartridge used**
Reading is so much fun. Peace.
What?! If the stylus is the same, how does this sound so different from one another? The presentation of the fluance hurts my ears, completely out of whack. Is it aligned correctly?
Which is a bother because I was going to import one 😅
Sure it's not just the shit choice of music ?
The Fluance sounds pretty good in person, the dynamics and range of this track aren’t transmitted well on this video. Stream the track and listen. The Pioneer is missing so much info
are you playing both through the sony ? because i know rhe fluance 85 is digital ? but that would also explain the differece between the two ! im buying the 81 becauce it uses the rca hook ups , i like my receiver ,,,so is this a fair comparison ?
Isn't RCA analog...? I have not seen anything that states that the Fluance RT series is "digital".
The RT81 has a built in phono stage and it is vastly inferior that even a Schiit Mani. You can definitelyuse the RT85 woth yoir receiveras long as it either has a phono input or yiu get a phono preamp for it (generally $100 ish will get something decent). Get the RT82 at least and a decent phono preamp and you'll be happier and give yourself room to grow. The RT81 has no growth potential. All fluance turntables are analog, they are absolutely not digital. I sent my RT81 back and got the RT85 and I'm so glad I did. The 2M blue cart, better motor controller, and acrylic platter all contribute to the better sound, but getting rid of that mediocre built in phono stage is probably the biggest improvement.
I was thinking of getting a fluance, now I’m second guessing that idea
The old turntable here is missing lots of information from the vinyl…the Fluance is picking up the sound as intended. Stream the track and listen for yourself
The Fluance is absolutely worthy of consideration. Vintage is just an alternative consideration. A large portion of that "consideration" definitely has to be your ability to fix/repair a good, cheap vintage find... or finding a solid seller who has done the necessary restoration beforehand. With vintage, you own an interesting piece of "history". It really comes down to what suits your needs and aesthetics the best. Peace.
@@tachikaze7 have to say that I’m pleased to have found this post as it introduced me to The Black Angels, just imported a copy of Phosphene Dream from Hamburg to the U.K. 🙌🏼 amazing 💫
@@wayno5851 So happy to have been the one to intro this unique and awesome band to you! I am hoping to one day catch them at a live gig. Peace!
What is the result of the comparison?
That is primarily up to each listener. I have seen that people have varying opinions on which one they like best.
The fluance version of this track sounds utterly awful, but i am on my phone and its a cheapie phone. The first one sounds better with the...um..organ sounds? Being way less pronounced so overall the sound stage is softer. 2bh tho i am new to the vinyl world n just want somethin to work, not be a bazillion dollars and yeah, not be a crossley lol so the 2nd cheapest fluance the 82 is prolly the best for me and maybe the platter upgrade in the future and upgrade to the 2m red hmm..
Thanks for the comment. The Fluance line up is very good, and you could easily be happy with one of their turntables. There are also many great vintage options out there to consider. Hope you find the set up that is right for you! Peace.
I’d be willing to bet the musicians of the track used here would prefer the Pioneer. The Fluance (with that particular cartridge) doesn’t capture the band’s sound quite as good. Just my opinion
Thanks for the comment. I think that in every way it really does come down to how the artists and recording studio intended the music to really sound. Beyond that, it mostly comes down to individual lister preference. (Which is technically not a BAD thing...) Every listener's ear is colored by many factors and has a huge impact on how they perceive audio. Ultimately, comparing one person's preference against another's is a matter of opinion. In the same manner in which two art lovers might look at a Picasso and have different impressions on the work. In the end, the painter is the only one who may know what was he true intent of the work.
This is really interesting. The difference to me is like night and day.
I bought a sansui turntable at a garage sale in the early 90's. One
of my girl friends destroyed the cartridge being a little heavy handed.
Once i got it back together it sounds great and i've dragged the thing
from city to city and state to state. Happy holidays.
Thanks! Happy Holidays to you, too. Which Sansui 'table was it? I have a few - with some videos here on RUclips, as well. I am amazed at the sound the Sansui turntables can produce.
@@tachikaze7 It's a TP600SA.
the cartrege says R25xt. I had a plastic
table when i got it and ended up throwing
it in the trash.
@@kofthebaskervilles Interesting. I have never heard of, or listened to, this particular Sansui. My first one, and the one that made me fall in love with vintage gear, was the FR-1080. Still have it. Won't ever part with it.
sounds same through my phone speaker... 🤔. but the Fluance RT85 sure does look better . 😏
The Fluance truly is sexy in that piano black. Cannot be denied.