The Benthic Lottery
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- Опубликовано: 28 окт 2024
- Today we look at the Big Benthic Lottery and how it pertains to the future of WoW gearing.
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Gear: shop.spreadshi...
Twitter: @Preachgaming
Live Stream - twitch.tv/preachlfw
The Good Book - / preachgaming
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They could just return to sockets being pre-determined on gear. I have no earthly idea why they ever thought RNG sockets was a good design.
The more you play, the more you pay.
@@JohnathonRob But if your shitty RNG design causes me to quit the game... well, I'm not paying *at all* anymore. Way to go, Blizzard.
I am gonna have to ask you to check those morals at the door.
We don't do logic and reason here Marxman...
@@marxman6896 its also why its called backfired =)
@@marxman6896 Unfortunately, there are people that are so up Blizzards butt that they refuse to play any other game for fear that they might betray Blizzard and enjoy something not made by a company they, for some odd and insane reason, think still values them as a person and not just a debit card. That's the main target of these schemes, if you quit because of them, then you weren't the target to begin with.
Because it's not an RPG anymore, it's an action puzzle casino
I'd call it a open world MOBA.
Lmao that does actually relate quite a bit.
Raid tier gear died for this.
But it's so fun, Tier gear is far more mundanne and borring! Just think about how much fun you'll have w hen you get the best item per slot!
*SARCASM*
In 5-10 years there will be people that are like "Tier-Set? Whats a Tier-Set?" :(
No it didn't, it died for Azerite gear.
They're gonna have to get over it, and bring them back. The game is bleeding subs, and for the longest time, when people would claim "WoW's dying." I always laughed, but now WoW does seem to be in its deaththroes.
@@AkaroXIV That's even worse
RPGs should not revolve around seasons. Seriously, I hate it and think items in an expansion should be locked behind difficulty gates and not held onto like we are playing Fortnite or something. Difficulty is progression not getting stuff, then senseless grinding for no real reward, to just have everything you've done not really matter because a new season has happened. Idk, as a EQ2 player, WOW has missed the mark imo.
I still play and keep up with the story, but it's disappointing.
100%
take it back to the way it was from vanilla to WoD. You log in, you play, you join up with friends. you take the raids at your own pace. no catch up gear, no "item boosting" none of that. Make it so content is viable the entire expac if need be. Hell, even better, make it so content is viable even beyond the expac (i've seen a couple places where people playing tbc would go back and raid the original Naxx because even with tbc gear it was challenging and fun).
honestly I think that's how it should have been and solved a lot of problems. this whole "jumping" item levels through an xpac and then again on another xpac to make everything before it useless, is stupid. Make it so that the top end raid gear is just below the gear from the next raid, and make world gear such that if you're a raider, you probably don't need it so you can vendor for gold, but if you're a casual then the gear you got through the expansions just keeps leveling up at a stead pace, so each new piece is an upgrade, but doesn't invalidate everything.
mythic+ is a great idea, and mega dungeons like karazan and mechagon are great and work almost as a "five man raid" which would be great for the semi-casuals that want to experience raiding, but don't have the time or desire to do full 10 man or 20-25 man raids, but also don't make it so their gear keeps up with the raids. have it split the difference. better than you can get casually, equal to what you can get in pvp, and below what you can get in the raids. it would make the game so much more fun and interesting for everyone.
Wow is not a rpg anymore, it's just barely being a mmo
Expansions as a concept don't work for RPGs...... Sure add more content. But this way just doesn't work well and never has....
@@luciussulla2641 i think you forget how few people did nax. catch up gear is necessary. because if you want to play with your friends and they are on progress on like the 4th raid you have to do dungeons to gear then 3 raid tiers of loot then you can play with your guild. a guild won't farm 3 old raids for new people. it's not the guilds job.
@@lv100Alice Oh this tired old argument. With all the CRZ grouping now, you really don't need catch up gearing. This is where I think LFR could have fit into the game. LFR would be the catch up and always be 1 raid tier behind.
More RnG on gear just what the fun needs. Whatever happened to determined drops from specific content that creates objective and solution.
The second half of this video was probably one of your best in terms of what could make gearing so much more fun, unique and immersive to what an MMORPG should be about.
I love the idea of the gear you get from the zone you're in giving to options to change up the flavor of gameplay for that zone only instead of just boring passive dmg increases for all aspects of the game.
"Has potential to be good. Has potential to be bad."
*[laughs in Murphy's Law]*
You want players to have fun
Blizzard want players to grind & shut up.
There's a huge disconnect in what the company wants players to do & what the players want to do. It's going to keep being one bad decision after another until someone who actually enjoys playing MMOs is put in charge of designing the game. To my knowledge, no one of the higher ups currently enjoys playing games (unless they're on mobile).
What was wrong with the old system of looking at a loot table nerding about the items you want, Then raiding till cows come home to get them!
My husband and I have played for over ten years... this perpetual grind and rep and forceful "you must do this or else you can't do anything else" is to the point of making him not play and talk about quitting. It's heartbreaking! We both love this game and we had so much fun playing together. Its just so sad.
can't you just take a break and then comeback?
@@Elvathar Why? It has been the same shit now for almost 2 expansions.
Try ESO, much better RPG experience. Don't let the people that say the combat sucks scare you off either. Once you unlock a good amount of skills, the combat gets pretty decent.
Because you'll get refreshed and actually enjoy the game more after a break.@@fatslapper49
But I don't get it, it's not like you have to grind if you don't want to. Like just raid normal then?@@AbysmalOmega
I really love Mechagon, and Nazjatar is alright, but now I'm mad because there's literally people at Blizz whose jobs are coming up with and implementing ideas and yet instead of really innovating they keep reiterating upon the same form of endgame zone.
Yeah i really dont know why they highered people that cant even do their job properly, the only department that doing good is the art och raiding department. Its so annoying when anyone with the slightest intrest in wow could think of hundreds of differnt good and fun ideas that wouldnt even be hard to make while the people that work there can only think of boring, tedious and uncreative things. Although when they do try to do something new they tend to not think through it all and end up making it worse.
I like the game, but I'm mad because I'm retarded.
@@endocry my ONLY problem with channels like this, is that players just adopt someone elses opinion regardless of how they actually feel/felt about the content. And not only that, they turn that criticism up to 11 and now everything is the worst thing ever and the sky is falling.
@@wuztron Jesus christ I still love the game im just annoyed by something in particular
benthic is ruined by gem slots, gems overall are way too strong to be random,
Infuriating garbage
Having to reroll on the same piece to get the best stats along with a socket just feels bad.
Yes, Preacher. You could do all these things indeed.
What you could ALSO do, however, is tide your disgruntled player base over with low-effort content and easy rewards that will be meaningless again in the near future while desperately trying to reel in whales through the cash shop. YOU of all people should know how the wheels are turning. YOU called out a bunch of these problems early on and were mocked and ridiculed for it.
I'm sick of Blizzard, personally. I enjoy YOUR content and YOUR insight, so I'm sticking around. The game itself can go suck a fat one, in my opinion.
I come from an rpg background of D&D and Pathfinder. In those systems, it's pretty well understood that the game is not designed for highly optimized characters. Campaigns with a mix of highly optimized characters and non optimized characters are rarely fun. A campaign of only optimized characters can be fun if the DM is adept at adjusting the game rules accordingly. Progression in D&D and Pathfinder is never balanced around highly optimized characters. I think part of the issue we are seeing here is that it's really hard to make a game that is fun for both optimization minded players and other players using the same ruleset.
I might be comparing apples and oranges here, but I'd love to hear what other people think about this.
Agree, raid content isn't balanced around having a full max ilvl character with a socket in every piece of gear - but you would think it were by listening to the playerbase, however, the Benthic gear affixes should be disabled once you leave Nazjatar the zone (Palace would be considered a different zone in this ideal world).
This would prevent Benthic gear from being so powerful
the more they throw free gear at me, the more I dont want to try in harder content
whereas in legion they gave me a quest for an artifact appearance and suddenly i want to raid for once
Legion was tons of free gear too...
@Ol Mart's World nixxiom also posted a video stating that unlocking kul tiran race means grinding 120... again
Have been playing this game since BC and one thing I miss the most is character progression, when getting a piece of gear or an achievement used to mean something. I miss multiple gems on my gear with multiple stats that required you to do research on on which were best for your gear. Gave me a sense of accomplishment, being able to look at someone's gear and tell if the player was clueless or not based on enchants, gems, hell reforging even (but let's not push it). My biggest issue is, during those times is when wow was at it's peak! People WANTED that, wanted to work towards progression. Why the hell will anyone change something that good into a shit show that they call WorldofWarcraft these days! There is light at the end of the tunnel called classic, which I hope is going to shine some light on Blizzard and make them understand that making a great game does not require a drastic useless change (damn Cataclysm!). I mean damn I have a career and I am a dad, and still can enjoy the game to the fullest. Enough ranting. Preach thanks for staying true to what you do best!
I've been playing WoW for about 5 years now, I stopped a bit during WoD for... reasons, But went over to Guild Wars 2 because one of my friends was playing it at the time before coming back to WoW mid Legion. And let me just say that the gearing system is GW2 is also at a standstill with the exotic and ascended gear being so close to each other in stats. Then legendary gear being the exact same as ascended in stats, meaning you can essentially buy the 2nd best gear for you from the trading post within a minute of being capped. But they have a 'Mastery' system there that was solely designed for the 1 map that was introduced at the time and you could only level up through doing dynamic events in the zone (similar to mechagon's pump-thingy) however the latter maps including a few designed from the first to make it easier BUT not necessary to own to enjoy the map. These things included bouncing mushrooms to get to hard to reach places for achievements, and mushrooms that could reset your CDs (Was in a jungle, It was a weird time) but ONLY in open-world content.
I believe this system shares a lot of design idea as the benthic pieces and honestly similar to some things in wow, Anyone remember the toy from WoD Shadowmoon Valley that let you mount a super fast mount for about a minute but was only usable in that zone?
EDIT: Just read some more comments and saw someone saying that they hate seasonal content and wanted to clarify that these 'Masteries' were introduced during an expansion and 6 free content dlc during the time to the next expansion where the same would happen again. But because of Guild Wars' dynamic leveling you could go back to these 'old' zones and they would be basically the same difficulty as the current content, meaning you could play miss one and it not be a problem unless you were invested in the story.
You'd think Blizzard would've made sure that the equip effects would've been only for OUTDOOR BFA areas, not raid content. That way, it is very much BIS for people who enjoy doing world content (i.e., scrubs like me), but raiders still have their progression. The fact that they somehow forgot/omitted that is batshit insane.
A lot of people that prefer solo play can be people with anxiety, disabilities etc that don't feel comfortable trying to raid or m+ because they dont want to get poked at by others over gameplay or class /spec choices . I can understand it.
@Cthulhu not really. with anxious and socially awkward people sometimes there is this thing where they Really want to do stuff with others but it is the fear of being torn down for not being good enough and things like that. Unless you have those kind of issues i guess you don't see it but eh. it is what it is. Thats why i hate pugging usually unless i have at least one of my guildies with me. As a dps i'm fine with it but when I am tanking m+ i have one of my healers come with in case i screw up they can help me salvage it.
Some counterpoints on the idea of gear having in effect only in outside content:
-What is the point of farming gear that will help you in Nazjatar if the only thing I can do in Nazjatar is to unlock said gear? If the gear is not relevant for raids, why would I do Nazjatar? And if it relevant for raid, I would only focus on this gear that is relevant and ignore the rest.
-The proof for that is the fact that such gear kinda exist already. There are a lot of benthic that give you more treasure in Nazjatar and help you do WQ. But if you are a raider you skip this gear and focus on the gear that is relevant for the raid.
I think the system Nazjatar has is fine, but you should only be able to get gear that are at normal raid ilvl (so 415 in this case). And mythic raider that already have 415 ilvl would still be interested because of the passive that help you in the raid. And you still have character progression through heroic and mythic
VictouffeVideos because doing fun cool shit is well....fun lol who cares about balance if u can do silly stuff not in raid. You can make farming in these two new areas a lot morefun and different experiences. Sure you will be farming to get such gear but Will make me farming mechagon for example something to look forward to if my character can now do over the top things cause of gear I got from naz. I just wanna have fun while doing the grinding stuff. WQ and all the other content in the new areas would feel fresh for longer. If you have played Diablo before, you will get the idea. Just having fun silly builds and changing them around while farming sounds like a great time actually. They have taken a lot of ideas from diablo which I disagreed with due to how often u get gear in diablo but this would be something I would be down with if it didn’t effect competitive content.
First: Gear being good in Nazjatar doesn't mean its useless elsewhere. It still functions as a platform to get into other content, but it doesn't need to be the end-all-be-all.
I think this is a problem in their world scaling philosophy. Like Preach said, he brought his 333 rogue to Nazjatar and did fine. Why? Why can't the world be dangerous? I really don't get it. If Nazjatar was dangerous, then you could have gear that functions for non-raiders to make farming there much easier.
@@921ELopez Ok but I think that a lot people don't really enjoy the grind, and if the grind does not help them for their main activity, then they would skip it. Meanig that Blizzard spent a lot of time designing cool zone that will beof no interest for a lot of players. Those zones need to have a carrot for everyone. And once again, benthic gea has some effects that help you grind, but no one is gonna upgrade these gear (but yeah the effect is not silly). Like why would I upgrade the cloak that help me play the murloc buying game?
@@Jaigarful I agree that the problem is not the gear being good in raid, but it is the gear being too good in raid. That's why the way I would do it is cap the ilvl on benthic gear and have the better version drop in the raid. Even better, you can have Raid benthic, MM+ benthic, PvP benthic and so on, caped at a certain ilvl, and the materials to upgrade them come with said contents. Like normal raid drops materials tu upgrade it to 415 instead of dropping 415 loot, heroic drop materials to upgrade it to 430 and so on.
And for the scaling, I think it's a different problem. I think it's a goos idea to keep content relevant, but new zones should havea lower bound on it. Like nazjatar scales from 385 and up (or maybe 370 to be inline with BoD LFR).That way you have to get a minimum of gear before going into nazjatar. The problem with that is that returning players cannot try the new contetn straight away. So you should give them an easy way to repeat farm 370 ilvl. Like getting more ilvls from warfronts, increasing the base ilvl of items drop in wq (currently they are juste incresaing the max ilvl of said items), or increasing base dungeon loot.
You nailed it on the head Preach, this describes exactly how I've felt about WoW since the beginning of BoA. It's a love hate relationship. What happened to the days when you wanted the best raid gear, you raided, and when you wanted the best PvP gear, you PvPed?
How to fix benthic: Make the affixes work only in the outdoor zone of Nazjatar and not in the raid. Preferably make the change a day before mythic launches for extra laughs and fun times /s. Oh and remove random proc sockets. Limit their maximum number you can have on your gear and make making sockets profession based (blacksmithing).
This
The benthic gear is not a problem, I like that I can work towards my best or close to best from work I put in that it makes it guranteed. The socket chance is what breaks the system.
They could have made it so that, the resource you require to upgrade the later stages of the benthic gear, to drop from the raid.
Have it so that a fully upgraded piece of Benthic gear with mana pearls is in line with normal Raidgear, give us a normalraid mana pearl to upgrade it to heroic level, and equally a heroic and mythic mana pearl? With one pearl(+5ilvl) per difficulty to drop from the first boss you kill. So you would need like 3 resets of killing a nhc, heroic and mythic boss to fully upgrade a fresh piece of gear?
eveybody knows that the real endgame is glamor... oops wrong game
I thought the original idea for azerite gear was that the traits would be related to where they dropped. Like 5 man drops would have traits that help in 5 mans etc
I think thats what everyone thought it would be, but blizzard never said those exact words. They did say that class rotations felt bad in beta because azerite traits would fill out the rotation though. Look how that turned out
they meant thematically, not functionality
Same as you, i thought raid Azerite gear would give specific raid related affixes, almost like old raid tier sets. They only tried this during Uldir, and it was a lazy flat primary and secondary stats bonus, or a damage proc (like we don't already have enough of those).
They could have made something like if you have 3 Azerite items from the current raid, you get a new spell when inside the raid, or a crazy good stat proc, but ONLY if you wear 3 parts of the raid Azerite Armor.
But hey, who am i to speak.
They did. There were Uldir-specific traits but rather than just have traits drop from one specific source, the opted to allowed people to get them multiple areas.
Usually what people think is the obvious choice for a new system being implemented is so close to what Blizz pushes out but they somehow always miss the mark enough for it to be more of an annoyance than enjoyable content.
Even though BFA wasnt my cup of tea I come back for the lore and your videos Preach.
My favorite part of WoD was that I could raid log, wasn't at the time but now I really appreciate the time I didn't need to spend playing the game.
the mark of a truly great game, where your players appreciate not playing the game LOL
This is a copy of a diablo 3 system, where you could buy benthic gear with blood shards. just 1:1
and expeditions are shitty rifts :p
I commented before finishing the video! Your second point on cosmetic/gimmick gear per zone is amazing! That one simple change would make the game 1000% more fun!!!
Gear is just a laughing stock at this point. I barely raided until WotLK yet I enjoyed Classic and BC more than any other time in WoW. The motivation to get better and raid is non-existent in the current game because people know that every patch they can spend 3 days out-gearing heroic raiders with these bullshit catch-up mechanics.
Pretty much this is why its hard to keep a guild together.. there is no PROGRESSION raiding... even IF people wanted to kill Jaina now 1) its easy now since everyone got boosts for free 2) the loot is now redundant making it pointless.... in Vanilla and TBC (i didnt raid much after this) you had to join a guild running older content to progress your gear before many bigger current content guilds would be interested in you. (or you had mates that would get you in and boost you). Gear felt like Access to new content and it wasnt easy to get. nowadays gear is just a dps check. it means nothing to you.
@@Vasana612 In BC we also ran alt raids of the older content to gear them and we would pull in people from the server community for some of those to fill slots. That, and because the ilvl difference wasn't as large back then, some items from early raids were still BIS for some classes when we were progressing through BT, so we would still do gruul's lair once a week to get dragon spine trophys for our rogues for instance. It kept more of the content relevant throughout the whole expansion.
@@starfreek101 thing is wow will never go back in this direction. They are so narrow minded about how each expansion should be that they remove any kind of replay ability outside of xmogs....
"BIS from world quests" aight, that's enough for me, see if 8.3 gives me a reason to resub, I'll see you then
BiS will never truly return with titanforging systems.
Except that's legit not true... That's what this video is about, Cat. As an Elemental Shaman with the Lava Burst build... That extra crit damage on my #1 spell that always crits? Nothing could replace that bonus... More so when it has my two best secondary stats... except enough versatility to overcome that bonus.
First they should remove the socket and warforged system and the RNG behind it. Make it so everyone has the possibility to upgrade their gear instead.
When you're a balla but Preach keeps ignoring you for all these new ladies and gentlemen
If the gear was like what you described Preach I would come back for that kind of stuff. Nothing I have seen makes me want to come back at all.
A cool alternative would have been that you unlock these gear affixes (via quests, rares, etc) from baenthic and now have as an enchant option for gear which in turn could cost pearls to apply to gear. This gear would need to have a baenthic enchantable affix to it which allows you to then place the enchant you've unlocked on it (1 per item). This could be limited on potential slots, or even gear. Essentially, its similar to gear with a proc on it, but you get to choose the proc you like. This promotes farming for higher end gear specific to current RoA content while having this new affix available that you only need to farm once (aka 1 carrot you get to keep) but with a cost to apply it to gear (pearls). It could be limited to belt, bracers, boots and cloak for example.
Make this guy a dev lol. Really nice ideas about the benthic gear abilities. around 17' +
I think he basically just needs to make an MMO, Blizzard wouldn't deserve Preach on their payroll, Activision has made blizzard unable to look at itself in the mirror for years now, they lost their soul.
@@DJSoulbrother oh hi there generic mmo-c poster
Great ideas!
Would be too much fun.
That's old Blizzard
I'm pretty sure Blizzard, (providing they even have say anymore.) has thrown in the towel with BFA. They just wanna finish the expansion up and move onto the next one. They screwed up so many times with such huge fundamental parts of the game. I think they're just writing this off as another WoD.
but there won't be another legion-like expansion when the likes of mike morhaime stepping down.
you are having fun ! Ion said so ! Real talk now, the entire game is designed to make you spend more time on it, every little second you lose count towards move revenue
preach listen. it's all well and good to want the best possible character. but the end result is killing the boss slightly faster, in a race where it already dies super fast. you'll kill the boss with or without this piece of gear and the process of obtaining it burns you out. guaranteed it's something you're gonna bitch hard about in a few months or years. the practise is unnecessary and makes you dislike the game. at what point do you give it a rest
To be honest, I bet I'm one of the players Blizz was targeting with this patch. I had stopped playing for months, literally haven't had the time nor guild to do raids. This being a jumping in point for me to farm raid-level gear (which I already have for two alts), then having many non-important things to aim for, means I would also be able to go back and do some old content that I wanted. But I also wish there was more incentive to raid, so that I would actually look for a raiding guild again.
Benthic gear is a complete sugar rush for the casual playerbase: high-end gear without the raiding, without the annoyances of mythic+, without trying to break into the painfully isolated rated PvP community. It has no depth or staying power and like most sugar rushes, the crash will be painful. Still, given how deplorably boring gear has been for the entirety of BFA, without a fundamental redesign of gameplay systems and rewards I don't see that they had a better alternative than to throw everyone on the most casual grind possible for BiS.
"painfully isolated" I like that
"A separate gear set for each zone?! Fuck you Blizzard for forcing me to take up even MORE bag space!"
- WoW community
The idea of gear working ONLY in zones is plain dumb, terrible. Why on earth would I spend more than 1 minute in a zone that does not allow me to perform better on raid?
WoW is more mmoRNG than mmoRPG (even the MMO aspect is no more on many servers)
Had ZERO idea that that armour could be mailed. That's crazy.
I feel like Blizzard is circling around the right solution, I'm actually kinda happy that they're taking the swings each patch, even if they miss. I'm just hoping that for 9.0 they'll actually connect.
Yeah but that's how they've been for so long now. It's like watching a child play T-ball and the coach is always yelling, "THE BALL IS RIGHT THERE. JUST HIT IT. HOW ARE YOU NOT DOING THIS?!"
@@skyrasmus4760 I'd disagree that the solution to make all the players happy is an easy one. lol
Your idea for gear is incredible, you're totally right by focusing high end loot to it's sources you can make a character that is strongest at a specialty of your choosing. Heck your nazjatar gear ideas would make being the most badass warmode nazjatar pvp murderer a goal. I looove the idea of being able to be the best... but not have to be the best raider - or m+ dungeon player, but to be the best at some other aspects even over those other players while in your element.
I think one point you may want to add, what if the raid gave the pearls to help upgrade the benthic gear? Like what if they embraced a longer progression system for pieces in the game so instead of having your pieces already near the max you got a piece you know you want and like but need to really power them up from daily's and the raid. I think this wouldve been a great use for farming the raid.
2 cents:
I've seen a list of BiS from 8.2 for my class - Fury Woyer - 3 pieces of Benthic gear, 1 of which I already had, but no crafting gear. Some of my BiS comes from Uu'nat (trinket + legs), BiS chest from PvP @ 2100+ rating, some stuff from M+, one TR piece, rest is from Mythic AEP with an exception made for the Operation Mechagon rings ... point is that I feel like I have a lot to do, being someone who doesn't have the time to endlessly farm M+ all day and gets to raid 2-3 times a week, at least compared to the last two tiers.
And I'm supposed to PvP too? Where do people find the time to gear alts? I really must be super casual.
WoW = a game where the players sit around writing fanfic about a game they wish existed, while blizzard laugh and keep serving up the same low-effort weak pisswater knowing they'll keep subbing regardless.
Classic is coming!
the gear is boring because it is replaced so fast, not because of the stats.
I agree fully Preach, and this is from someone who has fallen off the raiding wagon for the moment and looks at Benthic items as the best way to gear their character. Really the biggest issue right now in my opinion is the removal of tier sets. When the Raid gear is just an item level then anything with bonuses will become substantially better.
Give me my fucking PvP vendor back with gear that has Resilience and PvP Power so I can fuck right off from all the world quest bullshit and get back to doing BGs and having fun.
On the "local armor sets" idea, I thought that would have been a good solution for Azerite armor too e.g. you get a piece of Azerite from a raid that has a cool raid related bonus automatically, but it automatically rotates to a less interesting one in PvP, M+ or World content. And you get the interesting bonuses for each activity from their own rewards
A lottery is never good, it just gets people going by giving skewed rewards to a small amount of the playerbase to incentivize the whole.
I think the sad thing is that there are people that think the idea of world of Warcraft is to get the best gear and that is it. There is a whole world there to play in. Use your imagination guys. Wow is not a boss fight simulator
Arguably, the lack of gear progression has been a big issue ever since the introduction of M+. The day the raid opens you can also jump into M+ and get tonnes of raid equivalent level gear. The only things worth farming raids for in legion were tier, trinkets and relics. Now weapons are in M+ again, Azerite takes one less slot AND is available from M+ too.
I don't mind it, I think it's cool to use gear for raid that's from OUTSIDE of the raid (m+ doesn't count, it's basically raid gear already). That's what the essence of raiding was always about in classic/bc, you didn't even replace your dungeon blues for a long, long time because they were still substantially good, and some blues were just bis anyways until Nax because they gave 2% crit 2% hit or something ludicrous. I'm happy to have my 425 socketed crit damage boots on my fire mage, literally 600 dps better than mythic raid boots unless they roll a socket and a warforge. I don't care, it feels nice to have targeted, and worked for something that will last and not just get replaced by RNG.
The only problem with it is socket rng really, if there was a final tier that cost 150 pearls to add a socket, this wouldn't be an issue. Raid gear should be getting sockets over the course of the expansion to account for this too, allow people to fine tune their character stats to the highest degree with things like sockets.
My non tank specs and gear types have threat increasing bonus effects. Working as intended.
@Preach: unrelated to the topic, I've noticed you are clicking the Yes button manually, which is annoying, repetitive, and time-consuming. There's a macro to turn the mouse-click into a keyboard press, which is also annoying, repetitive, and time-consuming, but less so than doing it with a mouse.
The macro is: /click StaticPopup1Button1
You're welcome!
Something has spooked one of the de brutosaurs, sending it into a panic. Dis chaos is de last thing de city needs. Help de merchants rescuing de cargo before you get stomped on!
Thanks! I was just about to resub, $15 saved. You're the best Mike.
Yeah, it'd be terrible if a PvPer had to raid and PvE endlessly for the best PvP gear. And could you imagine if they kept doing that expansion after expansion? Crazy.
but this is the exact thing he's talking about. this only started in legion. in WoD and before, if you were a raider, you just did raids. if you were a pvper, you just did your pvp. that was the case in literally every wow expansion besides Legion and now BfA.
@@soshspotgames4380 That's not really true though. In almost every expansion there has been a trinket or a weapon that was BiS for PvP too.
@@soshspotgames4380 PvPers needed quite often stuff from raiding. I know, because I was one of them. Trinkets with vastly superior procs, hell even legendary weapons like Glaives/Valanyr/Smourne/Daggers/Firelands Staff - all were veeeery good in PvP (some of them were probably better than anything out of PvP). While I do not agree, that this should be a thing for everyone, sadly Blizz has done it before. They just don't give a shit apparently.
Taking a bad idea, like making PvPers raid, and applying it to everybody else doesn't make it a good idea. Might as well put our BIS behind pet battles.
Fun fact wow is a pve game with pvp if pvp is your thing wow is not a good pvp game
I've been playing the lottery like most others. Piled 240 manapearls into getting the socketed crit boots for my rogue. Not upgraded, just getting the base item. For me those pearls equated to about a weeks worth of running dailies and WQs in Nazj. How did it feel finally getting the right one? Felt dirty. Like I'd just drunkenly blown my paycheck on a horse bet. I'm having to do it all again for the frost bracers (by running my chars through Nazj), and will do it as well for the +aberration dmg belt, and perhaps some others.
I don't particularly care that the items come from WQs, even though it doesn't make any sense as you say. It's just a means to an end so I can raid with my friends and guild. Of course it's not fun, these quests are literally a chore as they're so devoid of challenge (I actually enjoyed Jumping Jellies 1.0 simply because it offered a smidgen of challenge in the sea of boring 'murder 5000 defenseless murlocs' quests). Of course that enjoyment was quickly dealt with by Blizzard. In theory you could have quite challenging WQs that reward quite nice items - although BiS might be a bit of a stretch even then. My problem is more the sheer grind needed to attain these things, and moreso than anything else - WHY does it have to be entirely random?! Why do I need to fill my bags with endless epic items that will be thrown straight into the scrapper. Why is the socket a random proc?! My overall feeling whilst constantly rolling for these items was "are you literally just trying to get people addicted here?". I already considered modern WoW to be effectively a casino setup - a skinner box with dice rolls. This sort of thing just solidifies that belief.
There is a very easy fix for this. Add the damage effects from the benthic gear to the raid loot as well. Maybe even let us enchant the raid loot with benthic gear effects by using mana pearls.
I really like the fact that there are ways to progress my character outside raiding as well however the current implementation needs work. I really should be looking forward to making my character stronger by doing the raid but for now the only really big upgrade i can get from eternal palace is a weapon.
I'm not a big fan of the idea that zones should drop zone specific armor.
They spend so much time on the base systems of the game I feel it leaves little to no actual time for innovation. I would love to play Preach's version of Nazjatar and Mechagon.
What's really bothering me is that, benthic gear is supposed to be catch-up gear. Hight end Mythic Raiders are going to clean Queen Azshara MM with catch-up gear... What a joke.
Lots of good points. Making questing zone specific items with cool features would be so much fun too.
Even though I play WoW super casually and don't raid, I agree with you on this
Listening to this you gotta wonder why Blizzard or another MMORPG doesn't try to get Mike on the books with his ideas.
I'd say your RPG argument makes a lot of sense, but I feel like it's an issue that's also exacerbated by the time constraint of oly a couple weeks and being a high-end mythic raider. Most players just don't have these issues.
God I'm so happy to be off this treadmill. Had to move could not login for 2 weeks. Got internet back and realized I had no desire to log back in. None of what I have seen since has made me regret that decision.
I kinda have a different pov to this matter, i'm not a mythic raider let's be clear about that first.
I think benthic gear is a good step up in the matter of gearing, having another source of gearing that is meant to help you in the coming tier is a great idea, in addition, it's mostly not RNG based, wished i could say no RNG at all but yh that's blizzard.
What made the benthic problem in my opinion is "Simming and BiS" it transformed from a 425 max below heroic level, farmabale gear and shareable to your alts to a must get BIS gear and ironically funneled from your alts to your main, not vise versa.
The other point is, the progression, i do like the idea that your progress isn't only about gear, the essence has a good share amount of your progression now, how/from where you get it is a different topic. I really hope they add a similar non gear progression in the coming expansion, that is directed toward gameplay, expandable, not rental, not generic.
Is the Nazj gear BiS because the raid/zone is relevant? Meaning, going into next raid tier will we be shedding the gear because the affixes don't work? Not detracting from the argument but it is an interesting facet of the conversation that I think makes picking up "post raid" BiS gear still matter.
Jesus @Preach, how much bag space do you think we have for all this one-zone-specific gear? This patch has already eaten up like 30 slots with doodads from the 2 new zones.
You have no idea how good 25:07 felt. I DID raid and log out throughout WoD and still liked the raids enough. Sure I would've liked OTHER things to do on the side but only ON THE SIDE. I actually got to do Mythics just raiding 5 hours a week during that expansion and it felt great not having to do a bunch of soulless and mindless content to keep up.
Yeah. I really liked this aspect. I said this back during Uldir. In HFC, I could maintain 2 mythic raid level characters, PvP, and have a life outside the game. I enjoyed my time playing, and I didn't need to be strung around with some arbitrary grind.
I get the distinct sense that each mechanic and activity is looked at in isolation. Rewards must be provided for each activity not in the context of the overall game, but for that one activity. This is obviously flawed. Benthic armor lottery is just another form of titanforging, it allows casual players to get high quality gear without having to raid. Blizzard's in-house psychologists have forgotten about the Justification Effect.
I've won the benthic lottery, got wrist, boots and belt with sockets and they are all currently 420. I personally won't mind if they nerf them to the point where mythic gear becomes better because it means theres more of a reason for me to clear mythic. I am all about the gear (and transmog), getting CE is just a bonus for me. Thankfully, Azshara drops a few bis items for my druid, so no matter what, ill have to clear to obtain those pieces (unless I get titanforge)
One way they could actually nerf them is by increasing the damage boss abilities do, because with benthic gear, you're capped at 425, which means you've got less stamina. It could get to the point where you are unable to use all the benthic you want because you won't survive the attack, so you'd have to make a choice as to what you're able to use and what you need to give up.
Stamina is an issue the further into mythic you get typically. Mechanics are often designed to barely overkill players at certain gear levels,
It still feels like progression to me. Like, you get your BiS piece and then you have to upgrade it with pearls. Which can take some time to get all of your pieces to 425. Even getting all the pearls together to roll for your BiS piece with a socket can take a while. It isn't too different from the crafted gear we get to make for ourselves. Unless you are a jewlcrafter and you have to make your ring... good luck with that. I've personally prospected hundreds of the new mining material and have gotten like 10 total gems for the ring. Good luck with that lol.
By the way, the real problem here is NOt the benthic gear itself. It's just the stupid fact gemslot are random and can improve a piece by like 20% alone.
If benthic couldn't proc gems at all.; you get the correct affix in a few benthic rolls, and you're done. Nobody complains.
random sockets in general are bad imo. What was bad about the old socket system?
@@plushysheep Because non-random sockets don't inflate the "gear ceiling". It doesn't potentially increase play time.
@@Jaigarful sad isn't it?
I didn’t realize at first that there were multiple different effects for each slot. So I wasted a good amount of mana pearls upgrading shitty pieces.
I can tell you that for Boomkins, the Bentic armor pieces you want are bracers and boots and belt, the rest is eternal palace drops. so as a Balance druid you only want 3 pieces of these, but.. of course.. 3 specific pieces.. feet: "Akana's Reefstrider Footwraps" belt: "Vim's Scalecrusher Clasp" and bracers: "Ori's Tidal Wristwraps"
Blizzard screwed up here heavily... Benthic armor shouldn't be account wide. Creating alts just to buy armor and send it on main character is just exploiting Blizzards mistake. Besides that gear is too powerful for being available so easily.
2:50 That explains why half the BG teams are druids recently, most m+teams consist of 3+ leather classes and in general leather classes make up for something like 50% of the playerbase mainly rogues...
If there was something to do that wasn't "collect them all" and gear progression, not having to push power progression all the time would be a welcome thing for many
The toxic thing is that you need to play one character to progress another, I think.
"Toxic" is a weird word for it though. It's more like "piss poor game design".
You don't. You do if you want to gear that character super fast. Or just play one and get there in october or something. No rush.
@@goran77ish Yeah, so anyone who wants to raid and has an alt can now feel compelled to do that. It doesn't sound like it's that much work (I didn't play the new zones, so tell me if that is wrong). It's just weird design.
Sure, you don't have to rush, but that's no excuse for bad design. Don't blame players for Blizzard's mistakes.
@@OWnIshiiTrolling to be honest, this affects just top mythic raiders. For everyone else it is whatever. And I am talking about rush to 100 guilds hall of fame players, even mythic raiders that are making slow mythic progression are fine. But there is a problem of having several gear slots locked down when you make an item. My class have 4 of this benthic items as BiS, I already have 2 maxed and I am just heroic raider doing dailies only on my main. Problem with METHOD and guys like this is they need several alts with maxed gear. Also, if you have 6 items already maxed gearing up is not that exciting. I don't care about gear, I care about defeating bosses and having fun with friends. Gear is just the tool for the job and end goal for me is defeating bosses with guys, having BiS gear feels like waste of time to me, AoTC or CE are there to stay, gear is there to swap.
@@goran77ish I disagree. I raided heroic until Uldir, now I just do a bit of m+. Even for heroic, I would play through the zone with alts that I have anyhow to then boost my main. If anything, it's even more attractive for me because I don't raid on my alts. My guild doesn't enforce such a thing, but if it's an efficient way to get gear, then I might as well do it. My argument is that it is bad design that playing an alt is what seems to be the most efficient way to gear a main, and nothing else.
I completely agree on not caring much about gear. Still, it sucks if there is no progression during a raid tier in terms of character strength.
@@OWnIshiiTrolling Well, it is your choice. And that is fine, we all are different and have different goals. For example I find m+ boring. I don't like trash grind content plus doing same dungeons for 2 years feels boring. I do one from time to time but grinding it for gear would make me quit the game.
But yes, having alts can help you in this case, if you want to min max. Only way alt can help you here is to grind tokens so you get the best proc with the socket. If you are not super competitive you don't need that gem slot. Rest of it is easy to get on a single alt. You still need to grind currency to upgrade it on main, alts can't help with that.
I got three gem slots on my benthic gear on my warlock alt. It's pretty sweet. +60 haste gems in all of em haha
BUT! I would MUCH rather have tier sets back and I'd love for those tier sets to have cool designs and a few guaranteed gem slots. I was extremely skeptical of azerite armor when it was first announced and it seems like my concerns were totally justified. The artifact weapons were a much better idea in my opinion and I'd love to just go back to them if we are going to keep the artifact system. I also think legion legendaries were cooler than the essences although I only have like 4-5 essences so far on my main so maybe I will find one I like even more. Also why didn't blizzard give us a PvP vendor? I don't understand why they completely ignored that. It's so Fuckin easy to fix that. JUST ADD A VENDOR DUDE AND PEOPLE WILL STOP BITCHING ABOUT IT!
I'm just praying to Metzen that this patchs good innovations- like more interesting loot, currency, and tinkering etc- are a big testing ground for that sort of fun and customization to be a standard part of WoW for future patches and expansions.
why would you pray to a Story designer when the issues are game mechanic related?
I believe that in a MMORPG the best gear should come from organized multiplayer content. With it scaling in rarity. Or: If you can farm one form of content on a 24/7 basis, but another only once a week, the latter should provide the better rewards overall.
It started in Warlords, escalated in Legion and now has reached its (current) peak in BfA.
What was so wrong with badge gear that had a finite end of where it got you but you still could improve on?
i want the best gear for that content to come from that content. if I want to pvp, it should come from pvp. If I want to raid, it should come from the raid. If I want to world quest, it should come from the world. If I want to m+, it should come from m+. I don't want to have to pvp and dungeon and wq, for the best raid gear. I dont want to have to raid for the best m+ gear.
@@TheOdinoki so you don't want to play an mmo then..... That's what you're saying..... Just make arena a separate game. Just make the raids a stand alone game. Just make world quests a stand alone game. That would actually be a much much better situation for what you want......
This was a more PvE orientated topic and I commented that way. PvP should have specialized rewards, but as long as we don't face a WotLK or Cata situtation (you can correct me on that, but that's the two I remember best) where you have a specific PvP stat that you can only really get through PvP, there will always be overlap in varying degrees. Weapons and Trinkets not withstanding.
Not mentioning that Arena is 1) organized multiplayer content and 2) requires ratings to get to the best rewards. Or in other words: You can't just mindlessly grind it the way you can grind M+ 10s. There is an inherent variance in PvP that cannot be emulated in PvE and makes earning better rewards a different beast altogether.
Nothing should be a pure lottery though. And given the current situation of PvP gear, I wouldn't be surprised if some of the Benthic affixes are very strong for PvP as well.
Well, it was still good during Warlords. Raid gear was way above the rest, mythic+ dungeons equivalent (timed dungeons) only rewarded cosmetics.
Only bad point was gems slots becoming what they are today, random and overpowered.
@@sazam1966 Reason I mentioned WoD was because of the mission table. I quit two months in, but (exaggerated) reports go as far as not having to leave your Garrison almost at all. You needed the first clear (I hope), but pugs can take care of that often within a month.
I don't know, I'm just happy that I have some way of obtaining BiS gear which doesn't consist of endless m+ grinds and rolling the azerite lottery every 2-3 weeks. As most of the time I need 1-2 azerite pieces and a whole bunch of "nonset" gear from m+ anyway, because the raid doesn't drop BiS stats, I don't really care if a few of them are from benthic gear. I also have nothing against farming Nazjatar wqs and dailies for a few weeks.
What bothers me way more is the content I have to redo endlessly. Now that we need azerite again I have to farm islands and old worldquest again, which I have already farmed to death in the previous two raidcontents (kind of like in Legion). And I have to spam m+ again for certain trinkets and rings, like I already did, again, twice this expansion. (Because Blizzard decided that the rings in Eternal Palace should have the exact same stats as the rings in BoD except one, wich is a big fuck you to every raider whose BiS stats are not among them, because now they need to grind the same m+' for the second content in a row.)
What I really want gearwise is that m+ gear is downscaled or otherwise limited inside of raids, kind of like old PvE gear in bgs, so that you can't obtain your entire BiS RAIDING gear without raiding.
Well seeing this in comparison makes it all the more obvious that Blizzard is creatively bankrupt!
I scrapped my PVP armor for a full set of benthic. After farming manapearls for a few days, my toon's item level is 406.
I got increase threat generation on my belt as a mage. This is it. This is my moment to relive mage tanking. Thanks blizz!
meanwhile ffxiv has guaranteed armor upgrade paths, trials that give weapons, accessories and tokens if ever you dont get them, etc. i feel like wow can learn from how ffxiv's looting system has evolved and works now
FFXIV's loot system is very boring and straightforward tho. it does however work delivering meaningful upgrades.
Agreed, when i was doing raids in TBC/Wrath i didn't have to fuck around with anything else.. a little gold making sure but you could do that via dailies or the AH, and you only needed to do dungeons and raids, and once you got far enough in the dungeons at the start you didn't need to do them again until the badge system broke basically lol.
It still feels like a theme park. I think it doesn't matter how fast the ride is going or how big the park is. You're still being guided through, like a tourist, waiting in line to take one carousel ride after the other. Mechagon rares aren't rare, they are dailies. Nazjatar is more of the same world quest stuff everybody is sick of at this point. They are just making more zones and fill them up with all the ideas they don't have.... Everyone is getting to do everything, regardless of skill, time / work invested, just wait in line and pay monthly. You can't even grind out something in your own time. If mama Blizzard says that's all for today then that's it. Just do a little today and come back tomorrow. I have less control over my schedule in this "game" than I have in real life. How f00ked up is that?
Sorry for the rant, I just needed that right now. ;D
Yeah it's like they didn't even think about it. "New gear works in all the new places right?" "Whatever."
I hate the idea of having armor that only works in certain zones. We went from "xpack invalidates your gear" to "patch invalidates your gear" and now you want "moving to a different zone invalidates your gear"?
But it doesn't invalidate it. He didn't talk about DPS, just utility. So your character is just as strong and viable in combat and whatnot, only that you don't get to use zone specific utility like zooming around the map on a spear.
@@Madnacc I couldn't care less about "dps" and gimmicks like that. my character doing cool things or bringing cool utility is what I enjoy. so if I works towards getting an item that makes traveling around easier, I don't want to lose that just because I cross some arbitrary boundary. RPGs are about the world and your character interacting with it, if I'd want to play a seasonal hack'n'slash I'd go play Diablo.
Not dissing btw, just my personal preference - I understand there are people who enjoy this whole seasonal, rng, disconnected gameplay
@@108Legacy Yes, it's about the world and it makes total sense when your utility to latch onto a mantaray flying around Nazjatar doesn't work on Vol'dun because, surprise, there's no mantarays flying around Vol'dun. You don't "lose" that ability in Vol'dun, it's simply useless. The same way diving gear would be pretty useless when climbing a mountain.