Corrupt or not the conduct shown in the clips here is extremely irresponsible and not fitting of the position of a top FIE referee. Based on that alone he shouldn't continue in his current position.
The first Park-Saron call is the classic overcomplicated garbage call Milenchev makes whenever he is trying to hide a dodgy decision. I mean WTF even is that call? "First counter parried, riposte no, reprise attack reprise counter touch to the counter-attack"? For a two light call it makes zero sense except in the context of trying to describe the action in a way that justifies giving Saron the call. Milenchev has a great eye. However I am very suspicious every time he describes relatively simple touches in complex ways
To the coaching of Mandov I can say: I’m a referee myself - of course not on that high of a level - I also fence myself or coach the younger fencers in our club. But when I referee at a tournament I go as far as forbidding the fencers from my club to address me informally when they are on the piste unspoken of talking to them privately during a bout or in a break
I remember before one of the first (foil) Junior World cups I did, one of the national coaches, who had also just got his FIE reffing licecnce, warned me about arguing with refs at FIE level. Specifically pointing out Milenchev as one of the refs who was known amongst them to take sides against fencers who got on his wrong side. At the time I thought this was probably normal at the top level but looking back it shows Milenchev was known to be a shady charachter long ago, even in foil circles
Out of the referees I have always found him to be the most right in his calls. If he is corrupt it’s really dreadful. I hope the FIE thoroughly investigates all of this. All the national federations should request they do so.
Will either Valiyev or Milenchev be refereeing at the Olympics in Paris? Also, whatever happened to Papa Toure? He seemed to be one of the premier referees for sabre.
not meaning to be rude, but this is the reason I chose epee as my fencing type choice, its more fair and has less of a bais because there's no right of way, but respect to fencers who deal with corrupt refs.
Can someone here explain to me why can't you just (in principle) leave the scoring to the electronics & stop scoring doubles (since it seems they're where all the subjectivity comes from)
I'm currently making an AI sabre fencing referee myself! As a sabre fencer myself, too many referees are corrupted and incompetent. I'm so tired of losing 14-14 to a bad call, which is why i'm building this project. Hopefully my ai referee will be enforced in fie tournmanets
@@Jinxsstar thank you! I'll definitely present it to usafencing if it gets enough traction. it uses a very complex algorithm that detects which actions both fencers make, and more importantly, who got the touch
Also while we're talking unprofessional, anyone notice Milenchev is very touchy-feely with his colleagues? Especially when it comes to covering the laptop during video reviews. Makes me feel ick when at times he's just about flat out groping his colleagues
LMAO i noticed that too. like he'll just have his hand clamped on the video referee's shoulder and be like "yeah, thats attack in prep alright" before giving the shoulder a nice firm squeeze while i'm just confused about why he's giving them a whole massage
Assuming ehat is discussed in the video is true, he likely does it as a form of unspoken dominance of his colleague, almost like a silent "remember I'm the big reff here. So don't make a call I wouldnt make"
Some gestures are ethnic specific expressing something, in his case perhaps "I agree". .... You may have noticed Italian coaches grabbing the buttock of the fencer who won the bout - a sort of "Great! You did it!"
I dont really know but I think high level refs are compensated well enough that for 5k they would not take the risk. I m not trying to say that everything is good but as you climb the hill towards the top it will happen that refs will be partial ,could be a simple thing one fencer yells too much or just the ref prefers high line attack over low line attack. Many times it happens that the referee did not fence saber but foil so he will give the touch to a point attack over a cut and does not even understands that once the arm is extended in saber, attack is done. So again I m not saying that it is ok as it is but just maybe it is not so bad either.
what a shame this sport seems to have a big problem, I just saw some Olympic fencing today and kinda found it intresting... also: It's way to damn fast for my brain to handle
Interesting that the four referees percieved as most corrupt are also (with the exception of Miklos Kosa) the only referees on the list who grew up in the Soviet Union. It's almost as if wider corruption in society is a predictive factor for corrupt judges...
Marius, I take my hat off to you for doing this. You're rocking the boat and that is laudable but please, be careful. There is some seriously shady shit that lies at the root of this. Olympic fencing has been rotten to the core for a long time and is one aspect of a deeper political situation that transcends fencing. The question is, whether the current public revelations will catalyse a change in the sport? In my view, it's doubtful. If anything the sport is going to lose more casual viewers and become more and more niche until it's nothing but a curious, anachronistic pastime for a select few. There has to be a sea change and refereees need to be the focus of this.
I'm not optimistic but unfortunately I feel we are in a lose-lose situation. If these issues are ignored, fencing will continue to stagnate- it is not in the interest of the corrupt to attract more spectators to their corruption. If these issues are raised publicly and more people become aware of the true nature of fencing then it will also harm fencing's image. Ultimately I view honesty and transparency as a virtue in and of itself, even if it achieves little else.
@@SlicerSabre My personal opinion mirrors your own sadly. I think the FIE and IOC will wait for this scandal to blow over and carry on business as usual. The sport will eventually forget or just accept things 'as the way it is' and the status quo will prevail.
@@celestialtoystore The sport has already accepted that things are the way they are and there is nothing more to it. Otherwise we would have a working rule book and we wouldn't push "conventions" every time we decide to bend a rule to let our guy win.
@archardor3392 This has been an open secret in the sport for years which is why I don't think it will be plunged into the existential crisis some believe it will. The competitors certainly won't kick up a stink as they fear rocking the boat will cause splashback. Corruption is now an inseparable part of the sport and yes, it is accepted as normal. The only thing that will happen is casual viewers of the sport will turn off due to the doubt over sporting legitimacy and that will impact the sport for the worse.
I saw him referee the match yesterday (gold at Olympics) and he made weird calls. Even people around me were saying it and one man yelled he should get a yellow card.
There are similar complains in every sport where referees have more discretional power, fencing not excluded. You are singling out MIlenchev as corrupt based on a few selected episodes over a decade, and a "testimony" of a single fencer likely frustrated by his result in a match. You can pick such episodes and "testimonies" for virtually any referee - from club to FIE level, and compile the same "proof of corruption" videos. In T64 and up videos available on the Internet you will find as much as you want improbably frequent "inaccurate calls" by top referees in favor of one of the fencers. Then why Milenchev? Given his origin, an easy target unlikely to sue you for defamation? Or the real target is fueling "a scandal" to help those striving to remove fencing from the Olympics, and he just a pawn to sacrifice? .... If you indeed care about fencing, think about that, even if Milenchev was really the "bad guy" you are trying to depict ....
You said this referee was rated by sabre fencers and coaches as the most competent and yet least trustworthy at the same time. How is that possible? How can be competent referee be untrustworthy or an untrustworthy referee be competent? You are not making any sense.
Showing up and taking charge consistently when not accounting for his potential corruption means Milenchev is clearly competent and has a good eye. Being incredibly good and choosing to make bad decisions means you can be competent and untrustworthy at the same time.
@@stephencheng1785 because Milenchev is genuinely the best on the circuit, when he is refereeing fairly. But because he's good he's also good a hiding the corruption and he comes across as someone who tries to intimidate others with his presence
Corrupt or not the conduct shown in the clips here is extremely irresponsible and not fitting of the position of a top FIE referee. Based on that alone he shouldn't continue in his current position.
You're doing good work highlighting this. Keep it up!
The first Park-Saron call is the classic overcomplicated garbage call Milenchev makes whenever he is trying to hide a dodgy decision.
I mean WTF even is that call? "First counter parried, riposte no, reprise attack reprise counter touch to the counter-attack"? For a two light call it makes zero sense except in the context of trying to describe the action in a way that justifies giving Saron the call.
Milenchev has a great eye. However I am very suspicious every time he describes relatively simple touches in complex ways
Yup, the old 'baffle them with bullshit' approach. Works every time.
To the coaching of Mandov I can say: I’m a referee myself - of course not on that high of a level - I also fence myself or coach the younger fencers in our club. But when I referee at a tournament I go as far as forbidding the fencers from my club to address me informally when they are on the piste unspoken of talking to them privately during a bout or in a break
I remember before one of the first (foil) Junior World cups I did, one of the national coaches, who had also just got his FIE reffing licecnce, warned me about arguing with refs at FIE level. Specifically pointing out Milenchev as one of the refs who was known amongst them to take sides against fencers who got on his wrong side. At the time I thought this was probably normal at the top level but looking back it shows Milenchev was known to be a shady charachter long ago, even in foil circles
Again Slicer, thank you for keeping it real as always
Out of the referees I have always found him to be the most right in his calls. If he is corrupt it’s really dreadful. I hope the FIE thoroughly investigates all of this. All the national federations should request they do so.
We need an AI referee. You are doing a great job
Damn, thank u for your work! I really hope, that a change will come...
Will either Valiyev or Milenchev be refereeing at the Olympics in Paris? Also, whatever happened to Papa Toure? He seemed to be one of the premier referees for sabre.
Yes both will be refereeing sabre in Paris. Papa Toure has been in Kuwait for some time now and is currently on the FIE Referee Commission
not meaning to be rude, but this is the reason I chose epee as my fencing type choice, its more fair and has less of a bais because there's no right of way, but respect to fencers who deal with corrupt refs.
I was cheated out to Ohio fencing championship trophy in French foils and i stop after winning the game and they refuse to give me the trophy
Поэтому давайте фехтовать на шпагах )
Can someone here explain to me why can't you just (in principle) leave the scoring to the electronics & stop scoring doubles (since it seems they're where all the subjectivity comes from)
right of way
I have seen a number of shady refereeing. Sometimes makes you wonder what bout they are watching.
I'm currently making an AI sabre fencing referee myself! As a sabre fencer myself, too many referees are corrupted and incompetent. I'm so tired of losing 14-14 to a bad call, which is why i'm building this project. Hopefully my ai referee will be enforced in fie tournmanets
Nice one, have you got a github or code depository for it? Will be interested in trying out!
Do you have a website of its
Developement?
that sounds crazy! im excited to see, if how that would work
@@spacehu1k no, not yet. I can't code in html 😅
@@Jinxsstar thank you! I'll definitely present it to usafencing if it gets enough traction.
it uses a very complex algorithm that detects which actions both fencers make, and more importantly, who got the touch
Also while we're talking unprofessional, anyone notice Milenchev is very touchy-feely with his colleagues? Especially when it comes to covering the laptop during video reviews.
Makes me feel ick when at times he's just about flat out groping his colleagues
LMAO i noticed that too. like he'll just have his hand clamped on the video referee's shoulder and be like "yeah, thats attack in prep alright" before giving the shoulder a nice firm squeeze while i'm just confused about why he's giving them a whole massage
Assuming ehat is discussed in the video is true, he likely does it as a form of unspoken dominance of his colleague, almost like a silent "remember I'm the big reff here. So don't make a call I wouldnt make"
Some gestures are ethnic specific expressing something, in his case perhaps "I agree". .... You may have noticed Italian coaches grabbing the buttock of the fencer who won the bout - a sort of "Great! You did it!"
I dont really know but I think high level refs are compensated well enough that for 5k they would not take the risk. I m not trying to say that everything is good but as you climb the hill towards the top it will happen that refs will be partial ,could be a simple thing one fencer yells too much or just the ref prefers high line attack over low line attack. Many times it happens that the referee did not fence saber but foil so he will give the touch to a point attack over a cut and does not even understands that once the arm is extended in saber, attack is done. So again I m not saying that it is ok as it is but just maybe it is not so bad either.
From funny referee to corrupted referee…
what a shame this sport seems to have a big problem, I just saw some Olympic fencing today and kinda found it intresting... also: It's way to damn fast for my brain to handle
Interesting that the four referees percieved as most corrupt are also (with the exception of Miklos Kosa) the only referees on the list who grew up in the Soviet Union. It's almost as if wider corruption in society is a predictive factor for corrupt judges...
By the way, Jacobo Morales has been suspended by USA fencing for 4 years
Marius, I take my hat off to you for doing this. You're rocking the boat and that is laudable but please, be careful. There is some seriously shady shit that lies at the root of this. Olympic fencing has been rotten to the core for a long time and is one aspect of a deeper political situation that transcends fencing. The question is, whether the current public revelations will catalyse a change in the sport? In my view, it's doubtful. If anything the sport is going to lose more casual viewers and become more and more niche until it's nothing but a curious, anachronistic pastime for a select few. There has to be a sea change and refereees need to be the focus of this.
I'm not optimistic but unfortunately I feel we are in a lose-lose situation.
If these issues are ignored, fencing will continue to stagnate- it is not in the interest of the corrupt to attract more spectators to their corruption.
If these issues are raised publicly and more people become aware of the true nature of fencing then it will also harm fencing's image.
Ultimately I view honesty and transparency as a virtue in and of itself, even if it achieves little else.
@@SlicerSabre My personal opinion mirrors your own sadly. I think the FIE and IOC will wait for this scandal to blow over and carry on business as usual. The sport will eventually forget or just accept things 'as the way it is' and the status quo will prevail.
@@celestialtoystore The sport has already accepted that things are the way they are and there is nothing more to it. Otherwise we would have a working rule book and we wouldn't push "conventions" every time we decide to bend a rule to let our guy win.
@archardor3392 This has been an open secret in the sport for years which is why I don't think it will be plunged into the existential crisis some believe it will. The competitors certainly won't kick up a stink as they fear rocking the boat will cause splashback. Corruption is now an inseparable part of the sport and yes, it is accepted as normal. The only thing that will happen is casual viewers of the sport will turn off due to the doubt over sporting legitimacy and that will impact the sport for the worse.
If you reference another video, and urge the viewer to watch it, then why don't you at least put a link in the video description?
ruclips.net/video/TGWZ13gxTxc/видео.html
I saw him referee the match yesterday (gold at Olympics) and he made weird calls. Even people around me were saying it and one man yelled he should get a yellow card.
I liked him most but today again fishy decisions...
🙈❤
There are similar complains in every sport where referees have more discretional power, fencing not excluded. You are singling out MIlenchev as corrupt based on a few selected episodes over a decade, and a "testimony" of a single fencer likely frustrated by his result in a match. You can pick such episodes and "testimonies" for virtually any referee - from club to FIE level, and compile the same "proof of corruption" videos. In T64 and up videos available on the Internet you will find as much as you want improbably frequent "inaccurate calls" by top referees in favor of one of the fencers. Then why Milenchev? Given his origin, an easy target unlikely to sue you for defamation? Or the real target is fueling "a scandal" to help those striving to remove fencing from the Olympics, and he just a pawn to sacrifice? .... If you indeed care about fencing, think about that, even if Milenchev was really the "bad guy" you are trying to depict ....
Are you Bulgarian by any chance?
Found Milenchev's burner account
@@SlicerSabre Does it matter?
@@cloudnein3483 or orchestrated smearing ....
@@bhs8319 why are you so defensive about the claims made in this video?
ok
You said this referee was rated by sabre fencers and coaches as the most competent and yet least trustworthy at the same time. How is that possible? How can be competent referee be untrustworthy or an untrustworthy referee be competent? You are not making any sense.
Showing up and taking charge consistently when not accounting for his potential corruption means Milenchev is clearly competent and has a good eye. Being incredibly good and choosing to make bad decisions means you can be competent and untrustworthy at the same time.
Technical competence and trustworthiness are not mutually exclusive. Milenchev's skill as a referee makes his untrustworthiness easier to obfuscate.
@@stephencheng1785 because Milenchev is genuinely the best on the circuit, when he is refereeing fairly.
But because he's good he's also good a hiding the corruption and he comes across as someone who tries to intimidate others with his presence
Миленчеву надо сделать клизму. Слишком большой живот 🤣🤣😅