You have a great setup and have produced a very nice filling video. One observation is that when connecting the coupler this way you actually force unwanted O2 into the bag. This O2 is from the residual air in the coupler filling valve which exists in the space between ball valve to the tip of the coupler. This will continue to happen every time you remove the coupler and start a new keg. Especially if you connect the coupler and fill the keg standing upright. with That is the main reason why KeyKeg recommends connecting and filling kegs with bags in the upside down position. beverage
Why would connecting them upside down remove oxygen from that space? I though the main reason why Keykeg recommends upside-down filling is that they don't have a dip tube so you would have foaming issues (just like if you pressure filled a metal keg from the gas port).
@@BentGateBrewing This is because of the air space in the plunger of the filling head coupler. The space between the ball shutoff valve and the tip of the coupler is about 120mm x 9mm of volume. If there is no beverage in that space when you connect the coupler to the keg, then you are forcing that volume of air into the keg. It has no were else it can go. So whenever you connect a coupler by tipping it over you remove all the beverage from that area and introduce air into the bag. By engaging the coupler upside as we show it, firstly by bringing the beverage to the tip and then connecting the coupler to the keg valve in the upside down position, you remove the air from this space. Also, because KeyKegs don't have a dip tube, you will notice that filling KeyKegs is significantly quicker than filling a spear based bag keg. This is the correct way to do it: ruclips.net/video/zA-4eTBaDSQ/видео.htmlfeature=shared
@@BentGateBrewing Regarding foaming issues. Whenever you fill a keg with a bag, its important to understand your pressures. In "regular" kegs, any excess gas, foaming and beer is expelled out the gas out side of the coupler. It makes quite the mess really if you don't pay attention at all times. In a bagged keg, this can not happen. Everything stays inside the bag or the beverage line. It literally has no where else it can go. It's impossible to overfill a bagged keg and end up with beer and mess all over the floor. For ALL bagged kegs, you better know your pressures when filling! You must always have the correct counter pressure set based on the head pressure and the beverages CO2/Vol (CO2 GM/LTR) and temperature (measured at the tip of the coupler). There are beverage calculators that can help you with this. If you don't have adequate counterpressure set then foaming will occur in any keg with a bag. It's science and you cant cheat it - even if the keg has a spear. Filling a KeyKeg upside down equates to filling the keg from the bottom. So it makes it the same as a spear based keg for filling purposes. Also, with the KeyKeg dip tube design you can fill KeyKegs a lot quicker compared to a filling a keg with a bag and spear.
Thanks for all the info! When filling them upside down, do you use other keykegs as the "table" or do you have a special rig for this?@@onecircleaustralianewzeala6467
@@BentGateBrewing Me personally, I use a fold up "work bench" from local hardware store :-) (cost about AUD$20.00). I find it cheap, compact and for me it is fit for purpose. However, I generally recommend a wine barrel rack on it's side - perfect for a two headed filling station! See it here as an example as used by a commercial contract filler in Adelaide filling wine in KeyKeg. ruclips.net/video/OoPBJsjbiJU/видео.htmlfeature=shared You can of course also use 2 x other KeyKegs. Here is a link to a google drive folder with many different ideas that I've seen. drive.google.com/drive/folders/18_F4i6KSa8NLkbVaDDAza6ucKj9p4s99?usp=sharing Of course there are also some very good semi automated filling solutions if you have the desire and budget. Niche Solutions Filling Stand in the UK and CraftFill (ACAS) in Europe Please let me know if I can be of further assistance. Happy kegging 🙂
Don't know if you filled the beer line on the fitting with CO2 first or not, but if you didn't (and since you didn't fill the line with beer before opening the valve for the bag) you're shooting the line's volume worth of atmospheric air into the first keg :) For fillers, I typically purge the filter with the filler attached. Fill with CO2, pull the PRV, fill with CO2, pull the PRV... until your desired purging is reached :)
Nice setup! I'm looking into getting myself the Brewtools inline filter because I'm constantly having clogged ball lock posts when racking my beer. How well does the Brewtools inline filter kit work? Does it get clogged during transferring heavily hopped beers?
yeah these are the same used in Denmark. I've worked some festivals and stuff here and those poly/key kegs are a heck of a lot nicer to lug around than the standard stainless ones used outside Europe. Are you able to purchase them at low volumes or do you have a barn full of poly kegs :)
Yeah they are way nicer to carry around, especially empty! Fortunately we can buy them individually. It's not the most cost effective, but yeah, we don't have the room/money for a full pallet of them hahaha
Yup exactly. Breweries can ship beer without having to worry about getting their metal kegs back :) this is also how beers are shipped internationally to Norway
We use approx. 0.1 bar above our carbonation pressure. We typically try and get most of our CO2 naturally using the spending valve and then only topping up as needed. But yeah, certainly uses some CO2 but I don't find it a prohibitive amount.
This is a good question! The typical use case for the types with bags is indeed single use, which is also how we use them. The polykegs are then either, a) collected by a third party and disassembled and reuse the base and top and recycle the rest of the plastic, or b) recycle the plastic for the whole polykeg. In Norway, there is a deposit system where bars and producers subscribe to a service and this company collects empty kegs and they get a deposit back when returned. Large breweries in Norway still often use metal kegs which are then picked up because they have the money an infrastructure to do their own distribution.
Polykegs are what big macro breweries have been using for years for international markets to save costs on shipping and returns. For local markets and home brew, stainless kegs are more cost effective and easier to maintain. Polykegs really aren't that great for reuse. There are unacceptable QA issues for big commercial users. Cheap, nasty and plastic.
I have never tried to reuse one with a bag. I know they make them without bags, but I have never seen them with the intent of being reused. More in the context of what you are saying: low cost for smaller breweries who can't afford to ship/own metal kegs.
Totally see where you are coming from. This is really meant for the scenario of distribution of commercial beer, not for homebrewing. For homebrewers, the normal corny keg route is certainly the most practical and still what we use for personal brewing :)
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You have a great setup and have produced a very nice filling video.
One observation is that when connecting the coupler this way you actually force unwanted O2 into the bag.
This O2 is from the residual air in the coupler filling valve which exists in the space between ball valve to the tip of the coupler.
This will continue to happen every time you remove the coupler and start a new keg. Especially if you connect the coupler and fill the keg standing upright.
with
That is the main reason why KeyKeg recommends connecting and filling kegs with bags in the upside down position.
beverage
Why would connecting them upside down remove oxygen from that space? I though the main reason why Keykeg recommends upside-down filling is that they don't have a dip tube so you would have foaming issues (just like if you pressure filled a metal keg from the gas port).
@@BentGateBrewing
This is because of the air space in the plunger of the filling head coupler.
The space between the ball shutoff valve and the tip of the coupler is about 120mm x 9mm of volume.
If there is no beverage in that space when you connect the coupler to the keg, then you are forcing that volume of air into the keg. It has no were else it can go.
So whenever you connect a coupler by tipping it over you remove all the beverage from that area and introduce air into the bag.
By engaging the coupler upside as we show it, firstly by bringing the beverage to the tip and then connecting the coupler to the keg valve in the upside down position, you remove the air from this space.
Also, because KeyKegs don't have a dip tube, you will notice that filling KeyKegs is significantly quicker than filling a spear based bag keg.
This is the correct way to do it: ruclips.net/video/zA-4eTBaDSQ/видео.htmlfeature=shared
@@BentGateBrewing
Regarding foaming issues.
Whenever you fill a keg with a bag, its important to understand your pressures.
In "regular" kegs, any excess gas, foaming and beer is expelled out the gas out side of the coupler. It makes quite the mess really if you don't pay attention at all times.
In a bagged keg, this can not happen.
Everything stays inside the bag or the beverage line. It literally has no where else it can go.
It's impossible to overfill a bagged keg and end up with beer and mess all over the floor.
For ALL bagged kegs, you better know your pressures when filling!
You must always have the correct counter pressure set based on the head pressure and the beverages CO2/Vol (CO2 GM/LTR) and temperature (measured at the tip of the coupler). There are beverage calculators that can help you with this.
If you don't have adequate counterpressure set then foaming will occur in any keg with a bag. It's science and you cant cheat it - even if the keg has a spear.
Filling a KeyKeg upside down equates to filling the keg from the bottom. So it makes it the same as a spear based keg for filling purposes.
Also, with the KeyKeg dip tube design you can fill KeyKegs a lot quicker compared to a filling a keg with a bag and spear.
Thanks for all the info! When filling them upside down, do you use other keykegs as the "table" or do you have a special rig for this?@@onecircleaustralianewzeala6467
@@BentGateBrewing Me personally, I use a fold up "work bench" from local hardware store :-) (cost about AUD$20.00).
I find it cheap, compact and for me it is fit for purpose.
However, I generally recommend a wine barrel rack on it's side - perfect for a two headed filling station! See it here as an example as used by a commercial contract filler in Adelaide filling wine in KeyKeg.
ruclips.net/video/OoPBJsjbiJU/видео.htmlfeature=shared
You can of course also use 2 x other KeyKegs.
Here is a link to a google drive folder with many different ideas that I've seen.
drive.google.com/drive/folders/18_F4i6KSa8NLkbVaDDAza6ucKj9p4s99?usp=sharing
Of course there are also some very good semi automated filling solutions if you have the desire and budget. Niche Solutions Filling Stand in the UK and CraftFill (ACAS) in Europe
Please let me know if I can be of further assistance.
Happy kegging 🙂
Don't know if you filled the beer line on the fitting with CO2 first or not, but if you didn't (and since you didn't fill the line with beer before opening the valve for the bag) you're shooting the line's volume worth of atmospheric air into the first keg :)
For fillers, I typically purge the filter with the filler attached. Fill with CO2, pull the PRV, fill with CO2, pull the PRV... until your desired purging is reached :)
Yup, we purge the beer line with CO2 before filling :)
Nice setup! I'm looking into getting myself the Brewtools inline filter because I'm constantly having clogged ball lock posts when racking my beer. How well does the Brewtools inline filter kit work? Does it get clogged during transferring heavily hopped beers?
yeah these are the same used in Denmark. I've worked some festivals and stuff here and those poly/key kegs are a heck of a lot nicer to lug around than the standard stainless ones used outside Europe. Are you able to purchase them at low volumes or do you have a barn full of poly kegs :)
Yeah they are way nicer to carry around, especially empty! Fortunately we can buy them individually. It's not the most cost effective, but yeah, we don't have the room/money for a full pallet of them hahaha
hello,
no need presurize the bag?
You pressurize the outside of the bag with any gas to the carbonation pressure based on what temps you'd store at.
Talked to Fuerst Wiacek and they do plastic only because it allows them to distribute all across the globe.
Yup exactly. Breweries can ship beer without having to worry about getting their metal kegs back :) this is also how beers are shipped internationally to Norway
THIRD
hi, looks nice! how much pressure do you put on the fermenter when filling? with the 150 we usually need a lot of co2 when filling
We use approx. 0.1 bar above our carbonation pressure. We typically try and get most of our CO2 naturally using the spending valve and then only topping up as needed. But yeah, certainly uses some CO2 but I don't find it a prohibitive amount.
Great video - where did you get the Co2 regulator ?
We purchased it from a local homebrew shop in Oslo :)
good job 😁
Thank you so much 😀
So these are single use for you? Or are you somehow replacing the bag and reusing?
This is a good question! The typical use case for the types with bags is indeed single use, which is also how we use them. The polykegs are then either, a) collected by a third party and disassembled and reuse the base and top and recycle the rest of the plastic, or b) recycle the plastic for the whole polykeg. In Norway, there is a deposit system where bars and producers subscribe to a service and this company collects empty kegs and they get a deposit back when returned. Large breweries in Norway still often use metal kegs which are then picked up because they have the money an infrastructure to do their own distribution.
W❤W! That’s Tremendously Awesome! Cheers!🥂❤️✨
Thank you! Cheers!
Nice🎉
Thanks 🤗
Polykegs are what big macro breweries have been using for years for international markets to save costs on shipping and returns. For local markets and home brew, stainless kegs are more cost effective and easier to maintain. Polykegs really aren't that great for reuse. There are unacceptable QA issues for big commercial users. Cheap, nasty and plastic.
I have never tried to reuse one with a bag. I know they make them without bags, but I have never seen them with the intent of being reused. More in the context of what you are saying: low cost for smaller breweries who can't afford to ship/own metal kegs.
this seems excessive and dumb. i really don't see what all the fuss is about. really seems like a waste of fittings and time
Totally see where you are coming from. This is really meant for the scenario of distribution of commercial beer, not for homebrewing. For homebrewers, the normal corny keg route is certainly the most practical and still what we use for personal brewing :)