The problem with both views of women is that men can blame women for their failings. Either they were the seductresses who led men astray, or they were responsible for the morals of the family, and if their men went astray, apparently the women had failed at doing their job as the guardians of morals/had been too weak or impure to influence their men in that way. Either way, it's her fault if men are amoral.
@@EllieDashwood As you have already mentioned, Ellie, these conditions arose due to scarcity of men in the extreme. Had the Victorians not considered men as "disposable", the usual surplus of males would have supplied a suitable mate for each woman who wanted one. With a surplus, women could hold men "accountable" by replacing them with a better guy.
@@adapienkowska2605 Even if that was true that women had no say in who they married, maybe except some rare cases where fathers really loved their daughters and considered their wishes, if there were more eligible men, even parents would have picked a better one for their daughter. So if there was a competition, men would have needed to step up. But since there was little competition... most didn't care about being better. (By the way, in lower society tiers women usually had more say in whom to marry) *sorry for my bad English; not my first language.
That's a feature, not a bug, of patriarchy. In order for women not to notice how under control we were (are) it is useful for oppressors to gild our cage to the best of their ability. And almost nothing works better on the psyche than to convince the targets that they are actually the ones in control. The 'power of influence' fallacy has been plaguing women for years, as was exactly the intent.
I love how Jesus was like "if you lust after a woman, cut out your eye" and then for centuries men proceed to ignore his point and blame women instead.
Yeah ! I've read quite a few religious books and it's amazing how much has gotten misunderstood . I mean Jesus never once said women were inferior . Translating religious texts to different languages is like playing a centuries long game of Chinese whispers .
@@jules2291 One of the most revolutionary things Jesus did was putting women UP on their proper place. Even his disciples had to get used to this idea. Back then it was improper for a woman to walk alongside her husband and men were discouraged from talking with women. Jesus respected women, he talked deeply with women, he taught them and encouraged them towards spirituel things. Never once did he say they had a duty to be pretty.
@@sweetsandcharades8383 uhm , that is exactly what I'm saying . Like , blame the men who took advantage of illiteracy among commoners to feed bull about not just Christianity but every other religion to commoners . Because the only thing the original book says is that married couples should respect each other , which isn't even religious , just something any marriage counselor would say . The only thing I don't agree with is the anti - homosexuality stance taken by Christians because I'm big on LGBTQ+ , and the religious intolerance . Im not Christian but studied it for college , and it was a pleasant surprise to find out India used to accept same sex marriages , transgender people and non binary people before the east india companies .
Thanks for giving us a closer look at Fordyce's sermons.They have become a bit of a running joke in P&P fanfic. Among the Bennets, Jane is probably the only one demonstrating his ideals. I'm sure Mr. Bennet was also falling short of whatever the equivalent ideal for gentlemen were at the time. I think Lizzy represented a balance between some of the common sense of Fordyce, and staying true to herself. She was respectful to her parents, while seeing their faults. She rejected a prudent marriage offer (Mr. Collins), even though it meant she disobeyed her mother, because she could not respect the man. And she rejected a fabulous (in terms of material gain) offer of marriage from Mr. Darcy because (among other things) he did not respect her and her family. She did make Darcy a better man, but not through sweetness and womanly perfection. She hit him brutally with the truth, challenged him, and criticized him. Fordyce would definitely not approve of her tactics!
Jane is the ultimate ideal of everything always! 😂 And yes, it’s really interesting like you say about how Elizabeth changed Darcy. Also, even though Lydia’s behavior ruined their reputation, obviously both Bingley and Darcy were able to get over that. It really is a super interesting exploration of how these things would play out in real life. If they would go 100% the way Fordyce said. Some things, Austen seems to straight out oppose, while others she explored and others she seems to agreed with. It’s a very complex relationship that’s super interesting. That yes, like you said resulted in mixtures in her characters!
@4Freedom4All I always thought Lydia’s arc was a big statement opposing the idea of moral punishment, because in the end the “wicked” people (Lydia and Wickham) get exactly what they wanted (however immature or absurd those wishes were). Lydia gets to be first married and triumph over her sisters. Wickham gets the financial reprieve and new job (income source) that he wanted. The family doesn’t suffer from her “disgrace” because there was enough money to sweep it under the rug and Jane and Elizabeth were able to marry rich (also against Fordyce’s sermons of marrying up).
@@desertdaisymarie6951 No, they absolutely marry up. The Beverly Hill Bennetts may be Within the same level on paper, as it were, but they're backwards and broke in comparison to others in the gentry. Come on now
One aspect, IMO, has been overlooked about Fordyce's Sermons. The very fact that they exist proves that Society did not strictly follow his rules. If so, he would have no reason to write his Sermons, which are a declaration of Ideals, rather than a declaration of the status quo.
@@petiaivailova2563 but sermons are not like laws, they are more like manifestos or argumentative works. Whether he's arguing in favour of the status quo or not, he's clearly arguing or cautioning against some real world deviations from his stated ideals.
@@teodorasavoiu4664 There are always deviations - this is in human nature. But if the book was so popular, it means that at least most people in high society consciously or unconsciously complied with it (even if it was hypocritical).
I think that's like saying that we have ethics books for children because they're not ethical. Some children are, others need a bit of guidance to get there. No one is born knowing everything, so some wisdom needs to be imparted.
@@petiaivailova2563 by this reasoning Mari Kondos book success indicates that we are all into minimalism, that atkins is how we eat… you see my point? Best selling does not indicate best followed. I would be surprised if Austen thought too highly of these types of sermons considering her personal ambitions to be a writer aka a woman who earns money. But she is a pragmatist and likely saw the need for restraint in behaviour. There is a lot of anxiety in all conduct books, and considering that the Georgian era was at the beginning of capitalism and fundamental relationships between money and power were changing, it’s not surprising that social mobility was seen as a threat to the status quo ( you find similar anxieties in the medieval period due the Black Death upending social norms and peasant social mobility). By the time of the Victorian period dollar princesses - the very thing for forcythe is against -are common and while not everyone loved them they were accepted in society.
Fordyce's Sermons might sound strange and archaic to the readers in Western world now. But here in India, we have our own variants of it that is still pretty much the prevailing moral standard on gender roles. The social theme of class prejudices in _P&P_ is still very much relatable in the Indian context, with the only difference here being a mix of class and caste prejudices. Lady Catherine's pointed barbs and insults against Lizzy Bennet's lack of fortune and inferior maternal relations, and the accusations of drawing someone in through 'arts and allurements' would give couples in India who went for inter-caste marriages a _deja vu._ And oh yes, elopements and the notions of 'disgrace' it brings to the family are pretty normal here as well. So, you don't really need to make much changes in the plot of _P&P_ to make it a 21st century Indian story. 🙄
@@grittykitty50 Pretty much the same. Social conservatism in India was not the invention of the British, though they did add a layer of Victorian conservatism as well to Indian society through colonial laws. Religious and caste orthodoxy began to solidify in India from the time of the Gupta Empire (3rd - 6th century CE), and there were greater restrictions on women from that time onwards. The society was much more liberal during the Mauryan times (4th century BCE - 2nd century CE) when egalitarian traditions like Buddhism and Jainism had greater sway, but by the time of the Guptas they had begun to lose their ground to growing Brahminist conservatism from which India has not recovered even in modern times.
I just read Pride and Prejudice again recently, and to my utter surprise, I realized one of my aunts was exactly like Lydia. Fordyce's Sermons might sound silly and outdated in modern society, but it is still very true that the "wild conduct" of a child can affect the entire family negatively, we just don't realize it until it actually happens.
@ CandiceCandyLin True! A family is like a living organism, if one member is ill/sick, or dies, it affects the entire organism. Some people are naturally more rebellious than others, but, as a rule, all of us have to conform to societies' norms (at least minimally)
You hit it out of the ballpark with this one! There was a strict code of conduct for women, but so many things could still go wrong! That’s what Austen was pointing out in each and every novel. As for Mrs Bennett, she‘s Lydia 1.0! It‘s like a time machine, imagine Lydia being 20 years older, but having to raise and marry off all these daughters. Overwhelm, hysterics and fainting fits! And Mr Bennett, having probably either been trapped into marriage or via Mrs Bennett‘s magnetism, having a 20 year strop. Emotionally unavailable.
@@EllieDashwood she‘s definitely the precursor edition! I think that’s why she’s Mrs. Bennett‘s favorite. I saw another RUclipsr had a very interesting take on Lydia‘s psychology. ruclips.net/video/sfQRgiBx5qk/видео.html
@4Freedom4All people do not often understand being worried or concerned for one's family. This is not exactly the same, but I get ppl being annoyed at me when I am very worried about my fam in my home country; they're like oh, well, that's their problem if they are sick or have financial problems.
@4Freedom4All I think it may have to do with the movie versions of Lydia. She seems almost manic in her giddiness, and because the reader is let in early on to the difficulties the family faces, Lydia seems to not give two hoots about how her actions influence others. Whereas Marianne seems to take some advice from Elinor.
@@oekmama Marianne and Elinor are closer in age with no siblings in between, unlike Lizzie and Lydia, so I get they listen to each other more. Marianne also has no one in the family to really reinforce her behaviour. Lydia has Kitty in tow and her mother encouraging her. Granted Mrs Dashwood doesn't take the effort to intervene and sometimes encourages, but Marianne has no solid support crew. Their motivations are also different. Lydia is clamouring to be noticed. Marianne has less competition with only two siblings and it's more that she lives in fantasy land- and she learns a lesson about the problems with that, whereas Lydia never learns. I also think making Marianne a skilled musician gives her a level of refinement that Lydia doesn't have.
One thing that came to mind was Elizabeth's and Darcy's conversation about an accomplished woman (P&P Chapter 8). While Darcy may not be quoting Fordyce, he does appear to have a very high standard for women. Even Elizabeth declares that she never saw such a woman. So, I would say, that Darcy is agreeing with the cultural norms to have a very high bar for women.
well he's actually saying she is the ideal woman, she's just blind to the compliment. I don't actually think he cares about the manner of walking and printing screens like the Bingley's mention. He is more interested in her mind. Her piano playing is perfectly acceptable to him, even though she is no great musician
Yeah, that was absolutely his clumsy attempt at complimenting her. Little did he realize that trying to paint Lizzie as exceptionally accomplished would lead Ole Selective Hearing Lizzie to go "are you calling all other women unaccomplished?!" Cue Darcy's Abject Horror & Confusion: 😐😟😨
Very interesting I never thought what books might be in a regency era home. Omg! Now I want a Austen “Must Read List”. All her favorite characters loved reading. Anne had recommendations! Edmund and Fanny bonded over it.
@@EllieDashwood that would make an excellent video. I keep thinking of Northanger Abbey where Catherine sees everything through a Gothic lens, but young ladies were expressly discouraged from reading novels...
You might enjoy the book The List Lover's Guide to Jane Austen. It has a list of works that Austen read as well as a list of books that were mentioned within her works.
Very interesting. When I read P&P I just thought it was just a random religious book. It seems like Jane Austen puts alot of effort into small details and I like it. I have a suggestion. Is it possible to do a video about beauty standarts of the regency era? What was a "beautiful/pretty girl" and what was an "ugly/unpretty girl" ? Some descriptions are kinda abstract but I can't give quotes because I didn't read the books in english. Same question for men.
Some of these ideals sound so strange when expressed overtly like this in the form of a sermon, but of course many of them still persist today. The idea that the best thing a woman can be is beautiful is still going strong, and we still conflate beauty and morality for a woman. We still put a lot more responsibility on women to be the pure, moral center of the domestic sphere. I'm sure many of us still believe on some level that it's a woman's job to "refine" the man in her life. So really, Fordyce didn't describe much we don't still believe today - he just said it in plain language instead of implying it.
Yes, all you have to do is wait for election season and here come the stupid articles about how Wife of Candidate will help to "present his softer side" and "file down his rough edges" and make him "more human, more likable". Hello, NOT HER JOB Or, she comes out on stage with him after he's caught dallying with a campaign aide, and here is Wifey "standing by her husband" and biting her lower lip, looking downcast and miserable. Hello, if it were my husband, I'd be all like "YOU'RE OWN YOUR OWN, DUMBASS" Not holding my breath waiting for a world where men have to deal with their own shortcomings.
I find it very interesting that while many religious people preach against female vanity and demonize things like make up and dressing up, these sermons tell young women to improve what god gave them. Is a refreshing idea
This is a great piece, and I am very impressed that you took the time to read the first of Fordyce's "sermons." I had assumed by the name sermon that these were tedious religious exercises, and had no idea they were really a "women's conduct book." Fordyce's pieces about the duty to please parents and please husbands can lead to great injustice if the parents or the husband are themselves selfish, shallow, greedy, domineering, and Austen does not put that element into her novels, but you correctly point out that Austen does put much of the rest of Fordyce into her novels. I particularly appreciate your observation that prior to what we may call the "Fordyce movement," the prevailing image in Europe of women were as corrupt or immoral creatures, and how the "Fordyce vision" had the effect of elevating women's status, first by urging women to have self-esteem, and second by positing that women can be the improvers and inspirers of men, and thus also of other women, and thus of society in general. You are actually recognizing in 2021 a genuine value to people of today of this part of what Fordyce wrote almost 300 years before, because of its effect on women's role in the centuries after Fordyce. So often today people scorn everything someone said, because one part of what they said, or did, deserves ridicule today. You have avoided that habit, separating the scorn-deserving from the praise-deserving portions of a prior writer. As you say, by recognizing the inherent ability of women having the ability to transform and reform society for the better, women "had something to have self-respect about," meaning "uplifters of all humanity. ... This was a very important step into getting to the view of women that we have today." This is sociological analysis, which you then fit Austen's work into. According to Fordyce, the way to be improvers of society is that women either "reform men, or you refine them." As you say, Eliza Bennett does this with Darcy - he is already reformed, but not yet sufficiently refined. Elizabeth has the power to refine Darcy, the richest of all of Austen's heroes. I think this is the basic reason why Pride & Prejudice is the most popular of Austen's novels, because no other Austen heroine does this - not Emma, not Elinor nor Marianne, not Anne Elliot, not Fanny Price, not Catherine Morland. All they do is have the merit of character to attract the dedication and commitment of men who are already both reformed and refined: Knightley, Edward & Brandon, Capt. Wentworth, Edmund, and Henry. These men see that these women have the character to be both good companions for themselves, and good mothers to their children. But Elizabeth is something more. She improves and changes her man. None of the others do that. This is why the Elizabeth of the 1980 video version is so far superior to the Elizabeth of the famous 1995 version: the 1995 Elizabeth does not have it in her to reform or refine, she only judges men, usually behind their backs, with snarky comments. I find her unwatchable, frankly; she is the worst of all Eliza video & movie versions - which is the fault of the writer and director, not of the actress. Your observation that the Bennett family is an example of what not to be, according to Fordyce - girls, don't be Lydia; mothers, don't be Mrs. Bennett - shows that Austen was in fact doing a better job, through her dramatic writing, of advancing and persuading women to adopt Fordyce's vision, than Fordyce himself was able to do, with his didactic writing. Your last bit - about how Fordyce says women should be good mothers in order to serve the glorious British Empire - is hilarious. "Fordyce - he has his priorities." A good piece of snark yourself here - and spot-on.
Every time I watch one of your videos, I learn SO much more than I expected. You are really helping me enjoy Austen’s books even more with the context!
I hope I don't offend anyone with the comparison I'm going to make, but when I have been reading Jane Austen's books and books about the time period, it has often struck me in how many ways their views on women's roles were similar than they are nowadays in some muslim families I have met. All that talk about "honour" and how it depends on women's behaviour and how one false step of a daughter can ruin the whole family in the eyes of society. Also the norms of behaving for women in regency time resembles those of some stricter muslim countries nowadays - forexample that women should not be walking around alone or travelling without a male relation or male servant etc.
That's super interesting! I think these norms of human behavior are repeated and adapted to different cultures around the world, many of them in our day. I guess even though times change, basic human behavior and beliefs really doesn't in some case. 🧐
It's really sexist, a society's morals being measured by their women's behavior, particularly their sexual behavior. Even today I see men on RUclips message boards point to women's sexual freedom as the reason for society's, "moral decline."
I just randomly found your channel and I am so glad I did. Thank you for posting . It was very interesting. I kind of figured Fordyce's Sermons were that kind of instructional book but never actually looked further into it. It would be kind of fun to get a print out of it for my personal library to be paired along side Pride and Prejudice (as well as Austen's other books) and see if anyone of my visitors catch on.
That would be so funny! You should offer to read it to any visitors in the evening and see if they make the connection. 😂 Also, welcome to the channel!!!! 😃😊
The positive effect of Elizabeth on Darcy is one of the things modern women like most about Darcy. He was willing and able to grow for Lizzy (though being tall, handsome, and rich might also contribute).
You do mention Mr. Collins a lot, and I think he deserves at least one video of his own. In discussions, I something think I'm one of very few who recognize that his pomposity is a defense mechanism, a way of surviving what has surely been a lifetime of shame and humiliation. Would I want to hang out with him? Heck no! But do I have a little understanding. I think so.
@@EllieDashwood It sounds a lot like what I grew up with. The pressures are relevant. The ideas are still very present. Its no wonder we are still reading Austen.
Although today we see the idea of changing men through love out of date, there is a way of seeing it as the one that the people you love help you to be a better person than you are. Love cannot transform a bad person into a good person, but it can polish one's character. That is why at least I feel that having a partner / friendship / family should bring out the best in yourself. That is why Pride and Prejudice has nevertheless aged well, when other novels such as Jane Eyre and Wuthering Heights are not read as current.
@Ellie Dashwood Grace Livingston Hill, if you've never heard of her, is the author of over 100 Christian romance novels that span a range of American history from the early 1800's to WWII. She's so much fun! She was a pastor's daughter and wife. Her views on the power of virtuous women to "reform and refine" the men around them are very well illustrated in her stories. I'm thinking she had a copy of Fordyce around somewhere! Also, the influence of John Ruskin shows up a lot -- he also wrote behavior guides for women that were quite popular in British society. And yet she was modern for her time. Anyone who has exhausted their Jane Austen reading list should give her a try!
Funny that he wrote behavior guides for women. He couldn't consummate his own marriage because he was so freaked out by the sight of his bride's pubic hair!
Interesting book, albeit more than a smidge patriarchal. Was there anything equivalent for young men? Was the author of that book married and had any children himself? It makes me wonder how his personal life was and what drove him to write the book, what his motivations were. By the way, nice end card! 😊👍
He did write sermons for young men! Of course, it wasn’t as a best seller as his young women book was. Also, from what I read, he didn’t marry until he was older. And it seems he decided that too many young women were being led into vice in his surrounding London and that he needed to step in and give them some counsel from friendly benevolence. And yes, definitely more than a smidge. 😂
@@EllieDashwood I had read it and yes, I think it brings Mary toward an interesting path. The writing is not Mrs. Austen (who could?) but it is a good book. And I think that some of us, woman, still have by this idea that with enough love and care we can change someone. So this idea went a long way, if I may say so.
That's really interesting. I always thought when Mr. Collins mentioned wanting to read from it, it was just some religions sermons on the Bible. Now that I know it's a lecture from men to women on how to behave, it makes all the more sense that obnoxious Mr. Collins wants to read it to them as he selects his wife, and makes Lizzy no doubt despise him all the more! Are there annotated versions of Jane Austen's works with little historical notes like this? It would have been so helpful to know this the first time I read it!
I haven't read this novel in a while, and I don't have access to a copy. But I recall this young woman who was at the very pinnacle of society commenting sharply when Darcy mentions something about marrying Elizabeth, "Then you would have a very gracious mother in law". It went something like that. But she knows that Darcy is dangerously attracted to Elizabeth before Darcy knows it. I also recall this young woman sitting at a harpsichord enumerating all the qualities a high born woman should have. Someone makes the comment that there are only a few women like that, and Elizabeth says, "I am surprised there are any."
Wow, all your videos are so interesting. I have always been interested in literature set during the Regency Era and your videos are so enlightening. I would like to ask a doubt I've had since I first read pride and prejudice. In the letter Mr. Darcy sents to Elizabeth, we see this line - "she was taken from school, and an establishment formed for her in London;" regarding Georgiana . I have always wondered what it meant to form an establishment for a young lady. I also wonder if all those things about being "ruined" in society are true and how exactly does it translate into real life. And what are the ways in which this ruination can happen? Also in your vocab video, you said a poor woman could force a man to marry her by swearing that her child is his. Seems like this could be easily exploited. How exactly did it work? Love your videos! Hope to see more.😘😘
Thank you so much! Those are all great questions! I’ll add them to my list of video ideas to be incorporated in futures videos. 😃😊 And yes, all those things about being ruined in society were definitely true. In fact, the source of the high number of prostitutes in London were women from the lower classes who had been “ruined” and now they had few other options in life. But it’s definitely a topic that would be great to talk more about in a video! 😃
@4Freedom4All She probably just wrote her novels for people in her social class. They were not interested in reading about servants and about real poverty. And I must say it's amazing that Jane Austen wrote as much as about "fallen women" and illegitimate children as she did. Because that is not a subject, that would have been discussed openly within the gentry.
@4Freedom4All My research indicates that "Fitzwilliam" only means "son of" William. The notion of illegitimacy was introduced by a specific case and was not true across the board.
It would have been like having Seventeen magazine around the house when I was a teenager. The magazines weren’t only about fashion and style, but boys (what to/not to do), health (if you’re my age, there were articles on STDs (and scary (to me) ones) every other month or so. And of course, celebs.
I really enjoyed hearing about Fordyce, and his views which were so prevalent at that time. Men were the real people, and women the complementary creatures God gave them, to keep them happy and good. Fairly one sided? If Mary Bennet is the main follower of Fordyce in the family, she appears to be doing so by default, as the least attractive daughter trying hard to be good and attractive. I recently read "The Other Bennet Sister" by Janice Hadlow, about Mary Bennet of course, a very long Regency novel depicting the trajectory of Mary during and after P&P, viewing events from her point of view. Have you read this one? Will you be doing a review? I thought it was a pretty good, and definitely interesting, book, giving an alternate read of Mary.
In Pride and Prejudice Mary is just dumb. None of her words make sense. I'm reading the book right now - just meaningless teachings - they sound like hollow quotes. She doesn't need her own story. In addition, she makes no effort to fit - on the contrary, she is kinda antisocial.
The point about women bringing their families up towards a greater godly idea reminds me alot of Harriet Beecher Stowe’s aim in writing Uncle Toms Cabin. Ladies, raise you and your families moral standards above evil and slavery, and we can use our powers for abolition
It's sort of an aikido move -- if you can pull off being "The Angel in the House", people igniring you are ignoring an angel. A couple generations later the same trick turns into the beginnings of public health and social services, the topic of _How Women Saved the City_.
I actually really wish we had codes of conduct nowadays that cared about morals and virtue. I don't see much wrong with this sermon as you describe it, except the constant emphasis on women's physical appearance. I wish women had this kind of dignity nowadays, I hope I can cultivate it in myself. I would also love it if you did a video on another one of his sermons!!!
I think I could easily take the appearance stuff more as ‘take care of yourself’ rather than ‘make yourself pretty’. Things like make sure your personal hygiene is kept up, your home is tidy, be less indulgent with unhealthy food (chocolate everyday is probably going to backfire), make sure you have a routine and keep up with exercise etc. When you take care of yourself it shows. I don’t mean as in loosing weight but more mental health, which in turn will show on the outside too in your manner and confidence. Basically wellness? Probably not explaining well as it’s 3.30am
@@sierralarars I totally agree that taking it that way is healthier, and you're right, we should strive to do those things, but tbh I think he really does mean just plain physical beauty. That we're to do everything within our powers to have it, to obsess over it in order to please men. That is how people spoke about women's roles in those days. They'd shamelessly say "women need to focus on being pleasing to men" and then explicitly praise aesthetically pleasing women over others. I don't think that is healthy. But again I totally see your point, and yes, we can take that advice in a particular (healthier) way.
@@lsjt8924 But if that is all he cared about, he would not talk about self-respect; I think his ideas are basically take care of yourself, but Regency style.
I'd love to see if modern elegance and deportment teachers, such as Anna Bey here on youtube, would embrace or reject these teachings. Ms. Bey, specifically, teaches elegance and femininity are the key to landing a rich husband. I've been drawing links between her videos on how to not be trashy and catty, and videos on how to be a lady in Victorian/Georgian/Romance/Etc Era times.
That would be interesting. I’ve seen her videos and I’m iffy about the message (but to each their own). I think she’d embrace some aspects but reject others (she does say that women should get an education and stand on their own merits to begin with).
@@YaoiHoshi They're very hit or miss for a lot of people, according to the comments section. It's easy to take away the information that's good to you and leave behind whatever ideas you find outdated or tacky. I really enjoy her video format because it's formulaic and easily digested. Some of her ideas, though...
Oh, when I have read P&P (most often in Swedish) I always thought that Fordyce's sermons were more of "how everybody shall behave", but I didn't think about it much. Probably because Sweden has a slightly different "litterature universe" (for non-scholars). When I hear Fordyce's idea that women shall try to inspire the men in their lifes, I imediatelly thought of Barbara Cartland 🤓 I can't remember ANY of her heroines that didn't made the hero go back to the ideals he had when he was very young, or, as a variation; he "had never met such a pure and goodhearted woman before" 😁
I haven't read Fordyce's Sermons and I've never had much interest in them ... I much prefer Samuel Johnson's essays. He atleast doesn't sermonise to half the population as to their "rightful" place. (my sarcasm). Despite not having read Fordyce's Sermons I do have some general comments: 1. P&P is quite specific that Mr Collins found the book at Longbourne. I always assumed the copy was Mary's. I think it's exactly the sort of book she would model her behaviour on and it would interesting to understand how her behaviour and comments conform to Fordyce, especially her remarks on Lydia's virtue. 2. I don't have a high opinion of Fordyce's comments regarding the reforming role of women in the house, which entrenched themselves throughout the the Victorian era even as he fell out of fashion. My views are philosophical and grounded in the inconsistency between placing responsibility on the least powerful/influential parts of society to reform or at least moderate the sex with actual power. And by power I mean economic, decision-making and even the ability to leave the house without restriction eg witness Lady Catherine's attention to Lizzy travelling back from visiting Mr and Mrs Collins which is not only to ensure her personal safety but that of her reputation. Go Mary Wollstonecraft in her Vindication of the Rights of Women; she was eons ahead of her time. 3. Jane Austen's use of irony and wit around including Fordyce's Sermons in the novel--how do the following align? * Mr Collins not approving of novels and then finding Fordyce's. Is JA saying of course this would be the way? Is there a connection between Mr Collins' ridiculousness and the sermons? * I understand Fordyce's Sermons had gone out of fashion by the end of the 18th century, before P&P was published, hence Fordyce and Mr Collins both are both old fashioned and unfashionable * Lydia does everything the sermons condemn and falls from grace, but Lydia's fall from grace is to be expected based on the mores of the day. Her sisters by contrast are not reduced to penury and tarnished by their sister's behaviour , which I believe Fordyce promotes, and two go on to make highly advantageous marriage. Is Fordyce right in his reference to all? * I don't think across JA's six novels she projects her heroines as reformers, or punishes/prevents women who act outside Fordyce's strictures: eg at no time was Fanny a reformer of Henry Crawford, or Marianne Dashwood the same for Willoughby. There are also multiple women who might be considered villains who prosper/are not punished: eg the extremely venal women in Sense and Sensibility such as the manipulative Lucy Steele and the unpleasant Mrs Dashwood. Great talking points and interpretations. You always have so much to think about and to frame opinions around. I love exploring my thoughts after your videos as always and look forward to the next one. :)
In China, the equivalent will most likely be 《女誡》 (Or in English Translations "Warnings for Women".) It was written during the Han Dynasty. Ironically it was writteny by a woman, Ban Zhao. It outlines the Four Womanly Virtures- Speech, Conduct, Manner and Merit It also outlines how the relationship between a woman and her parents, and her husband, and her in-laws should be conducted. It was quite popular during the last two dynasties, Ming and Qing. Women's position and status were quite low during these two Dynasties and this books was a must read for girls in noble families. The guide even tells ladies are virtuous if "they're not so intelligent as to outshine their husband."🙈
I would love you to do a video on the books which Regency Era young women would have read. What would Elizabeth Bennett have curled up with a blanket to read?
I just kept thinking about Fanny in Mansfield Park and how she is blamed for Mr. Crawford's misdeeds. And that she could have prevented it if only she made her piety "rub off on him."
Bearing in mind that most women wanted to achieve a good marriage these sermons would have been essential reading. I agree, there is intentional irony referencing them here that women readers of the time would have easily recognised. Well done Ms Austen. X
This seems to play out in Mansfield Park too, don’t you think? With people insisting that Fanny can reform Henry Crawford and her rejecting the idea. It’s been a long time since I’ve read the book, though.
I'm so glad I found this video! Thank you for making it! I've been looking for some direction in my life and this clicked so much for me. I'm definitely picking up this book of sermons from the library to read it all for myself. If I can just put into practice some of the items mentioned in the first sermon alone, I'm sure my life will change for the better! I really enjoy your content!
Yes you can! I found it on an excellent website I subscribe to called forgottenbooks.com . They have so many fantastic authentic historical resources, many that are hard to find or out of print or extremely expensive normally.
I do not completely disagree, but def the whole being loved by men, your morality is what influences adult men's behaviours... Nope. That said, I like your take even better: beautiful, dignified womanhood.
@@LaVaneBea So, women were being taught they can change men? We're still trying to unlearn that. 🙂 BTW, I can't do meek, nor do I feel I should have to. Expecting an entire gender to have the same temperament is unreasonable.
If I understand correctly: Before Fordyce--Women are baby-making machines designed to support men's egos. After Fordyce--Women are baby-making machines designed to support men's egos, with additional restrictions. In every case, whatever happens is the woman's fault.
Women were never baby-making 'machines': this is a misconception born of the different standards of our modern overpopulated society. Back when infant mortality was high and life expectancy lower as a whole, parenthood (not just motherhood, though women were given more respect as they did more of the work!) was viewed in the same light as we might view climate activists today. 'Saving the planet' - for people back in a more naturally brutal age, 'saving the human race' was the best one could do! Parenthood was considered both an honour and a duty by both men and women. It's a social situation we can't really understand today, because of overpopulation lowering the value of having children for us today.
Really interesting video! What you say about Fordyce's central view being that the best thing for a woman is being a good wife and mother, it makes perfect sense that Collins would be reading from him. He's at the Bennetts' place to find a wife, he wants to bolster the view that marriage for marriage's sake is a good thing, and he wants to reinforce to the Bennett girls that they should be grateful that he's offering one of them the chance to become a wife. Offhand, have you ever done a video about the relative social standing of the characters in Pride and Prejudice? I'm a bit confused about the specifics, simply because there seem to be so many factors in play. Is Elizabeth justified in defending herself to Lady Catherine as being of the same theoretical social class as Darcy ("he is a gentleman, I am a gentleman's daughter")? Is there any justification in Caroline Bingley making fun of Sir William Lucas' commercial background, or is this just Caroline being a hypocritical snob? Doesn't Caroline ultimately have the same background? And for that matter, is Caroline the better social catch for Darcy that she thinks she is compared to Elizabeth? Does her rich but non-genteel background beat Elizabeth's poor but genteel one?
You can see similar ideology in Louisa May Alcott's works. A little in Little Women, but very centric in An Old-Fashioned Girl, Eight Cousins, & Rose in Bloom, & in various of her short stories. Virtuous and accomplished women uplifting men, who in turn use their masculine strength and virtues to protect and guide women, in mutual respect.
how very romantic of mr collins to sit and read to the women he expected to propose to on how they were expected to behave. you know what i have never understood about the higher classes of the past... the men were all but expected to have mistresses while the women were not even expected to enjoy sex with their husbands. they were much too delicate for such a thing, so the husband was expected to go seek carnal pleasure elsewhere. but should a woman enjoy it, and dare say, seek it out from her husband, well, she was just a scarlett woman. i do not agree with adultery on either side and i can understand why it was important for women to not commit it. it must be known that any children were, in fact, the biological child of the father, so that they could inherit and keep the blood line going. but men are capable of monogamy too and should have been expected of it.
Absolutely! I'm not at all feminist but the one double standard of 'patriarchal' times that makes my blood boil was that men could get away with, or even be celebrated for, infidelity where women were rigorously kept to moral standards with little charity for human frailty. It wasn't quite so unequal in Shakespeare's time (Henry the Eighth just got away with it because he was a king) but by the Victorian Era it was beyond infuriating. Gone With the Wind made me so MAD sometimes!
This lifestyle is my nightmare. The only good thing about being a woman in the Regency era to me is if you were rich enough you were at least materially comfortable. The rules and obligations of this rigid social hierarchy, and the superficiality of all of its obsessions, sounds absolutely excruciating. I can't see how there was even the slightest amount of authenticity anywhere- not in your relationships or your activities- as friendships were all based on jockeying for position, marriages were all based on money and status, and activities were all based on what other people told you to do. Did a woman have even one thing she got to do just because she liked to, or one friend with whom she had a genuine connection? OMG. It all sounds so fake. I'd want to die.
I think you were supposed to do both, because women need to be beautiful and an important part of that is to wear nice clothes. I don't think being a mother stopped your responsibility to look pretty for your husband.
@@ElizabethJones-pv3sj This is true! But maybe you should wear beautiful English clothes? That would fix all this French fashion stuff while still keeping you pretty for your husband. 😂
I mean... Men feeling entitled to criticize women's fashions is extremely annoying. It happens nowadays with men who are so woke that they want to nitpick one for being feminine.
A good women absolutely can inspire men. I've witnessed men make better decisions simply because a kind virtuous women entered the room (saying nothing and having influence over nothing) while they were thinking. I don't recommend this being used in a "I can change him" toxic relationship sense though lol. I've also witnessed the difference between a man who grew up with sisters, and those who did not. If we want to go the biblical rout, and I know not everyone will, the literal Hebrew translation says woman was created as a "rescuer of man." (To serve has many meanings. So, the exact words chosen matters.)
Dangerous liaisons, although Valmont wanted to seduce Madame do Tourvel, her virtue and morality influenced him to be a better man. He even seemed to prefer choosing virtue over vice, and even he choose immortality he immediately regretted it
As a counterpoint, Austen might have chosen Fordyce by serendipity, as a way to compound Mr Collins' character. As noted, the Bennets owned the copy of the sermons. It is inconcievable that the sisters (at least Jane, Elizabeth and Mary!) had not read it cover to cover for their general education in etiquette and morality &c. Mr Collins then coming in and insisting he read it to them then comes across as perfectly in line with his delusions of grandeur and superciliousness, that at best that they would own such a volume and not have read it, or worse that they are in need of someone to interpret it for them. Man needs a prompt, unscheduled swim in the pond if you ask me, preferably with rocks in his vestments.
This is not a criticism but a question. Why are there so many micro cuts? Does RUclips do that automatically. Watching the cat in the background, it doesn’t look like she flubbed and re-recorded (which I do all the time for my work training videos).
Hmm, well of course it’s an interesting sociological discussion, but to be brutally frank, I don’t think Fordyce was that much different than most of us when it comes to Jane Austin’s novels and the movies made from them: we are focused on the attraction between virtuous men and virtuous (oh, and I almost forgot, PRETTY) women, and we want those attractions to lead to matrimony. I think I could enjoy hanging out with Fordyce, if he had a sense of humor as well as the desire for me to be virtuous and pretty 😁.
I am currently obsesses with a particular historical figure from the era (dont ask for name you probably wont know him) and am researching every aspect of the era now... Which is why at 5:30 I know it is the waltz Wiener Blut from Strauß playing in the background XD I love when things connect and the full picture is being slowly pieced together from all the fragments! That being said: Wiener Blut is not from the regency era (looking at the years now, because the time was actually called Biedermeier in Austria where Strauß is from). It was written later. I'm interpreting way too much into them using royalty free music am I not...
I always appreciate when nuance is added to the discussion about how women were treated in history. I believe that men have always at least loved their female kin and so have never sought out to harm women as a whole, but rather protect what they love. I believe a woman’s ability to stir primal urges within man and the risk of pregnancy if she does is what drove the beliefs and practices of history. Eve, you have power so use it wisely or you could die in childbirth. Does that make sense?
Thank you for putting this outdated book into context and not just trashing it from the perspective of a modern day woman in America because let’s face it a modern-day woman in another country and I’m not gonna name countries, might be looking at that book as something progressive! Now Did I LOL when you read that first statement where he says basically what better thing can a woman do it then make herself more appealing to us? Yes yes I literally laughed out loud because it was funny. But if you look at that statement from a non-cynical eye it makes sense. At the time it was absolutely a man’s world so technically he’s trying to help women out. he saying, look what im asking you to do is to embody purity and goodness and all these things that we Christians are SUPPOSED to hold dear. so by making yourself more appealing to men in this manner and not some other manner you are bettering society because an upstanding christian man SHOULD value these noble qualities and behaviors, and that’s who you want to appeal to. You’re not gonna be doing yourself any favors by acting like a a little hoochi mama and what they would’ve considered a hooch back then would not be consider a Hoochie by todays standards so sure it’s a rigid set of rules. but the point still remains: you live in this time this is how the world works so this is how you might want to behave. Basically you’ll catch more flies with honey then you will with vinegar. Maybe he was acknowledging Darwinian evolution and the importance of sexual selection. Because the truth of the matter is women decide how men are going to act based on what men they choose to be with. Really this guy was being sneaky he saying Everywoman should act as a noble pure Christian ideal and therefore men will come to value these qualities and that shapes society and we will have a more pure and Christian society. This guy knew he had to appeal to women in order to influence a male dominated society. Or maybe I’m just giving him too much credit I don’t know.
Wolstencraft wrote her vindication in response to Rousseau’s if I remember correctly. His did not include women, evidently. And, at the time physical effort, thinking too much, etc, weren’t good for women. It would dry up their wombs. Think Elizabeth walking and thinking a lot. She was a radical and a rebel. PS Wolstencraft was Mary Shelley’s mother. She wrote the first Goth novel - FRANKENSTEIN!!
The more I reflect on my abusive marriage, the more I watch true crime stories, the more I see of the vices in this world, the more I tend to agree with ye olde courtship and marriage processes, and even morality. The single largest demographic of victims of abusive relationships, of rape and murder, and of serial killers are vulnerable women like prostitutes and women with weak family and social connections.
"For the unbelieving husband is sanctified through his believing wife. " (1 cor 7:14). Proverbs 31 has much to say about good women as well. I can say that the love and encouragement of a good wife can make a good man strive to be even better. All bets off if he's a narcissist though...
Fordyce perhaps did not consider Elizabeth Bennett an ideal, due to her 'quick wit' and propensity to 'grow brown' and romp out of doors. Yet she embodies the values of the sermons you highlighted. If anyone is an ideal in behavior in Pride and Prejudice, it would be Jane. Yet Jane's passive purity would have led to her ultimate ruin had not Elizabeth's real virtue and self-esteem caused a change of fortune for the whole family. Georgiana Darcy was groomed to be Fordyce's ideal. However, her passive acceptance of the adoration of a man without contemplation caused her to act in exactly the same way as Lidia Bennett, who was brought up to believe morality the provence of a dowager. I think Austen's feminist take is that no matter what the prevailing wind of thought is on female behavior, virtue takes fortitude and effort. Only when that effort is applied does a good woman achieve her desired results.
FRANKENSTEIN Wolstonecraft was Mary Shelly's mother. Mary, married to the poet Shelly, on a rainy and cold, summer Italian sabbatical with hubby and poet Byron ( "mad, bad, and dangerous to know" ) wrote Frankenstein on a challenge they made to each other to write a "scary" story.
So obviously it's outdated and I do appreciate that there was feminist discussion of it even back then and women who are critical of it but as far as guys deciding how women should behave it's not really too bad it doesn't sound like he hated women and as I'm a person who believes in meeting people where they are and understanding the context of their life before passing judgment I'm not offended by his beliefs
@@dismurrart6648 hold on. He said women are ‘powerful and valuable’ only insofar as they behave according to their only purpose in life, which is to be subservient and ‘useful’ to men. I guess it was empowering at that time (compared to the views on women that existed before) , but it’s telling that feminists were calling him out even back in his time.
@@YaoiHoshi so im not trying to downplay it, it's still really sexist. It's just more that within the sexism of the time I can see some women feeling okay with that if that makes sense. Like it's almost refreshing that while being a benevolent sexist he wanted women to feel positive emotions about who they are vs a lot of what im used to where even modern benevolent sexists don't seem to think that women have emotions or that they matter. Like theres just something novel in this for me more than that I think its good.
Watching some older video's that I somehow missed and had a funny thought run through my head in the last part about Mrs Bennet and Lydia and how Mary is constantly quoting and talking about these sermons. My laugh was that Mary could actually be more sarcastic, witty, and humorous than her father and Lizzy - she sits there and reads tracts that make fun of her family, and they simply don't get that their faults are being outlined. She wanders off and has a laugh for herself of how dense and self-absorbed they all are that they don't get what she is doing. She's a bit of a Snape and feels herself surrounded by dunderheads that don't even see when they are being put down. I may have to go back for a re-read to see any hints from Austen that Mary isn't as obliviously pedantic as she appears. Is Mary making fun of them, for Austen? Even the scene about the balm of sisterly consolation could be read as a dig since Jane and Lizzy rarely ever interact in a close sisterly manner to Mary... I think I want to see an actress play THIS Mary! Snide glances, eye rolling, sotto voiced 'idoits' as she leaves a room.
"Virtuous women are the sweeteners, the charms of human life". So my purpose in life is to be Stevia ! 😮🤯
No, honey, to be honey!
@@amybee40 that's what I was gonna say!!! Cuz I'm slow moving and goopy.
I’m aiming to be rum.
i want some stevian women.
Can I be moscato?
The problem with both views of women is that men can blame women for their failings. Either they were the seductresses who led men astray, or they were responsible for the morals of the family, and if their men went astray, apparently the women had failed at doing their job as the guardians of morals/had been too weak or impure to influence their men in that way.
Either way, it's her fault if men are amoral.
It's true that the men really need to take responsibility for their actions. 🧐
@@EllieDashwood As you have already mentioned, Ellie, these conditions arose due to scarcity of men in the extreme. Had the Victorians not considered men as "disposable", the usual surplus of males would have supplied a suitable mate for each woman who wanted one. With a surplus, women could hold men "accountable" by replacing them with a better guy.
@@bernadettesandoval3990 how? Women had no say in who they marry.
@@adapienkowska2605 Even if that was true that women had no say in who they married, maybe except some rare cases where fathers really loved their daughters and considered their wishes, if there were more eligible men, even parents would have picked a better one for their daughter. So if there was a competition, men would have needed to step up. But since there was little competition... most didn't care about being better. (By the way, in lower society tiers women usually had more say in whom to marry)
*sorry for my bad English; not my first language.
That's a feature, not a bug, of patriarchy. In order for women not to notice how under control we were (are) it is useful for oppressors to gild our cage to the best of their ability. And almost nothing works better on the psyche than to convince the targets that they are actually the ones in control. The 'power of influence' fallacy has been plaguing women for years, as was exactly the intent.
I love how Jesus was like "if you lust after a woman, cut out your eye" and then for centuries men proceed to ignore his point and blame women instead.
Yeah ! I've read quite a few religious books and it's amazing how much has gotten misunderstood . I mean Jesus never once said women were inferior . Translating religious texts to different languages is like playing a centuries long game of Chinese whispers .
@@jules2291 One of the most revolutionary things Jesus did was putting women UP on their proper place. Even his disciples had to get used to this idea. Back then it was improper for a woman to walk alongside her husband and men were discouraged from talking with women. Jesus respected women, he talked deeply with women, he taught them and encouraged them towards spirituel things. Never once did he say they had a duty to be pretty.
@@jules2291 misunderstood? Deliberately ignored and warped for men’s convenience, more like...
@@sweetsandcharades8383 uhm , that is exactly what I'm saying . Like , blame the men who took advantage of illiteracy among commoners to feed bull about not just Christianity but every other religion to commoners . Because the only thing the original book says is that married couples should respect each other , which isn't even religious , just something any marriage counselor would say . The only thing I don't agree with is the anti - homosexuality stance taken by Christians because I'm big on LGBTQ+ , and the religious intolerance . Im not Christian but studied it for college , and it was a pleasant surprise to find out India used to accept same sex marriages , transgender people and non binary people before the east india companies .
@@jules2291
Yeah.
They also threw perfectly healthy women onto the funeral pyres of their deceased husbands.
Oh! Wait!!
They still do that. . .
Watching this in my thirties, single, dressed with my pajamas at 1pm and eating peanut butter straight out of the jar. I strive for elegance 😬
you're my hero
Goals, girl, goals.
You can do both, but at (different) appropriate times.
@@ssm5513 that's a brilliant reply!
We are ladies of leisure lol 😂😆
Thanks for giving us a closer look at Fordyce's sermons.They have become a bit of a running joke in P&P fanfic. Among the Bennets, Jane is probably the only one demonstrating his ideals. I'm sure Mr. Bennet was also falling short of whatever the equivalent ideal for gentlemen were at the time. I think Lizzy represented a balance between some of the common sense of Fordyce, and staying true to herself. She was respectful to her parents, while seeing their faults. She rejected a prudent marriage offer (Mr. Collins), even though it meant she disobeyed her mother, because she could not respect the man. And she rejected a fabulous (in terms of material gain) offer of marriage from Mr. Darcy because (among other things) he did not respect her and her family. She did make Darcy a better man, but not through sweetness and womanly perfection. She hit him brutally with the truth, challenged him, and criticized him. Fordyce would definitely not approve of her tactics!
Jane is the ultimate ideal of everything always! 😂 And yes, it’s really interesting like you say about how Elizabeth changed Darcy. Also, even though Lydia’s behavior ruined their reputation, obviously both Bingley and Darcy were able to get over that. It really is a super interesting exploration of how these things would play out in real life. If they would go 100% the way Fordyce said. Some things, Austen seems to straight out oppose, while others she explored and others she seems to agreed with. It’s a very complex relationship that’s super interesting. That yes, like you said resulted in mixtures in her characters!
@4Freedom4All I always thought Lydia’s arc was a big statement opposing the idea of moral punishment, because in the end the “wicked” people (Lydia and Wickham) get exactly what they wanted (however immature or absurd those wishes were). Lydia gets to be first married and triumph over her sisters. Wickham gets the financial reprieve and new job (income source) that he wanted.
The family doesn’t suffer from her “disgrace” because there was enough money to sweep it under the rug and Jane and Elizabeth were able to marry rich (also against Fordyce’s sermons of marrying up).
@@katdenning6535 they don't marry up, they marry within the gentry so within their class..
@@desertdaisymarie6951 No, they absolutely marry up. The Beverly Hill Bennetts may be Within the same level on paper, as it were, but they're backwards and broke in comparison to others in the gentry. Come on now
@@LA_HA it's the same class which is what counts.. The money thing would only be a big deal with a fortune hunter..
The most interesting part of Collin's choice for reading Fordyce in P&P is that by that time his views were already considered outdated.
One aspect, IMO, has been overlooked about Fordyce's Sermons. The very fact that they exist proves that Society did not strictly follow his rules. If so, he would have no reason to write his Sermons, which are a declaration of Ideals, rather than a declaration of the status quo.
It's like saying that laws exist because no one obeys them. And we know that most people do.
@@petiaivailova2563 but sermons are not like laws, they are more like manifestos or argumentative works. Whether he's arguing in favour of the status quo or not, he's clearly arguing or cautioning against some real world deviations from his stated ideals.
@@teodorasavoiu4664 There are always deviations - this is in human nature. But if the book was so popular, it means that at least most people in high society consciously or unconsciously complied with it (even if it was hypocritical).
I think that's like saying that we have ethics books for children because they're not ethical. Some children are, others need a bit of guidance to get there. No one is born knowing everything, so some wisdom needs to be imparted.
@@petiaivailova2563 by this reasoning Mari Kondos book success indicates that we are all into minimalism, that atkins is how we eat… you see my point? Best selling does not indicate best followed. I would be surprised if Austen thought too highly of these types of sermons considering her personal ambitions to be a writer aka a woman who earns money. But she is a pragmatist and likely saw the need for restraint in behaviour. There is a lot of anxiety in all conduct books, and considering that the Georgian era was at the beginning of capitalism and fundamental relationships between money and power were changing, it’s not surprising that social mobility was seen as a threat to the status quo ( you find similar anxieties in the medieval period due the Black Death upending social norms and peasant social mobility). By the time of the Victorian period dollar princesses - the very thing for forcythe is against -are common and while not everyone loved them they were accepted in society.
Fordyce's Sermons might sound strange and archaic to the readers in Western world now. But here in India, we have our own variants of it that is still pretty much the prevailing moral standard on gender roles. The social theme of class prejudices in _P&P_ is still very much relatable in the Indian context, with the only difference here being a mix of class and caste prejudices. Lady Catherine's pointed barbs and insults against Lizzy Bennet's lack of fortune and inferior maternal relations, and the accusations of drawing someone in through 'arts and allurements' would give couples in India who went for inter-caste marriages a _deja vu._
And oh yes, elopements and the notions of 'disgrace' it brings to the family are pretty normal here as well. So, you don't really need to make much changes in the plot of _P&P_ to make it a 21st century Indian story. 🙄
That’s so interesting! It’s amazing how a lot of cultures have these same ideas. Have you always lived in India?
@@EllieDashwood Yep. Born here. 😉
Vineeth G, it would be really interesting to know what India was like BEFORE the British invaded.
@@grittykitty50 Pretty much the same. Social conservatism in India was not the invention of the British, though they did add a layer of Victorian conservatism as well to Indian society through colonial laws. Religious and caste orthodoxy began to solidify in India from the time of the Gupta Empire (3rd - 6th century CE), and there were greater restrictions on women from that time onwards. The society was much more liberal during the Mauryan times (4th century BCE - 2nd century CE) when egalitarian traditions like Buddhism and Jainism had greater sway, but by the time of the Guptas they had begun to lose their ground to growing Brahminist conservatism from which India has not recovered even in modern times.
Thank you for sharing, this was really interesting.
"Reforming" men hasn't gone away. Many women wish to redeem the "bad boy"
That’s a good point!
And it is still usually a lost cause.
I just read Pride and Prejudice again recently, and to my utter surprise, I realized one of my aunts was exactly like Lydia. Fordyce's Sermons might sound silly and outdated in modern society, but it is still very true that the "wild conduct" of a child can affect the entire family negatively, we just don't realize it until it actually happens.
@ CandiceCandyLin
True! A family is like a living organism, if one member is ill/sick, or dies, it affects the entire organism.
Some people are naturally more rebellious than others, but, as a rule, all of us have to conform to
societies' norms (at least minimally)
You hit it out of the ballpark with this one! There was a strict code of conduct for women, but so many things could still go wrong! That’s what Austen was pointing out in each and every novel.
As for Mrs Bennett, she‘s Lydia 1.0! It‘s like a time machine, imagine Lydia being 20 years older, but having to raise and marry off all these daughters. Overwhelm, hysterics and fainting fits! And Mr Bennett, having probably either been trapped into marriage or via Mrs Bennett‘s magnetism, having a 20 year strop. Emotionally unavailable.
That’s so funny! It’s true, she’s Lydia 2.0!
@@EllieDashwood she‘s definitely the precursor edition! I think that’s why she’s Mrs. Bennett‘s favorite. I saw another RUclipsr had a very interesting take on Lydia‘s psychology. ruclips.net/video/sfQRgiBx5qk/видео.html
@4Freedom4All people do not often understand being worried or concerned for one's family. This is not exactly the same, but I get ppl being annoyed at me when I am very worried about my fam in my home country; they're like oh, well, that's their problem if they are sick or have financial problems.
@4Freedom4All I think it may have to do with the movie versions of Lydia. She seems almost manic in her giddiness, and because the reader is let in early on to the difficulties the family faces, Lydia seems to not give two hoots about how her actions influence others. Whereas Marianne seems to take some advice from Elinor.
@@oekmama Marianne and Elinor are closer in age with no siblings in between, unlike Lizzie and Lydia, so I get they listen to each other more. Marianne also has no one in the family to really reinforce her behaviour. Lydia has Kitty in tow and her mother encouraging her. Granted Mrs Dashwood doesn't take the effort to intervene and sometimes encourages, but Marianne has no solid support crew. Their motivations are also different. Lydia is clamouring to be noticed. Marianne has less competition with only two siblings and it's more that she lives in fantasy land- and she learns a lesson about the problems with that, whereas Lydia never learns. I also think making Marianne a skilled musician gives her a level of refinement that Lydia doesn't have.
One thing that came to mind was Elizabeth's and Darcy's conversation about an accomplished woman (P&P Chapter 8). While Darcy may not be quoting Fordyce, he does appear to have a very high standard for women. Even Elizabeth declares that she never saw such a woman. So, I would say, that Darcy is agreeing with the cultural norms to have a very high bar for women.
well he's actually saying she is the ideal woman, she's just blind to the compliment. I don't actually think he cares about the manner of walking and printing screens like the Bingley's mention. He is more interested in her mind. Her piano playing is perfectly acceptable to him, even though she is no great musician
Yeah, that was absolutely his clumsy attempt at complimenting her. Little did he realize that trying to paint Lizzie as exceptionally accomplished would lead Ole Selective Hearing Lizzie to go "are you calling all other women unaccomplished?!"
Cue Darcy's Abject Horror & Confusion: 😐😟😨
Very interesting I never thought what books might be in a regency era home. Omg!
Now I want a Austen “Must Read List”.
All her favorite characters loved reading.
Anne had recommendations!
Edmund and Fanny bonded over it.
It’s so true! Jane Austen wrote some serious readers! And the that is a great video idea!!!
@@EllieDashwood that would make an excellent video. I keep thinking of Northanger Abbey where Catherine sees everything through a Gothic lens, but young ladies were expressly discouraged from reading novels...
@@EllieDashwood I want that video! *Or series*. It seems like too much for one video.
You might enjoy the book The List Lover's Guide to Jane Austen. It has a list of works that Austen read as well as a list of books that were mentioned within her works.
I very much recommend Ann Radcliffe's novels- The Mysteries of Udolpho really is good!
Kitty in the background; so cute!
😃🐈⬛🐈⬛🐈⬛
Very interesting. When I read P&P I just thought it was just a random religious book. It seems like Jane Austen puts alot of effort into small details and I like it.
I have a suggestion. Is it possible to do a video about beauty standarts of the regency era? What was a "beautiful/pretty girl" and what was an "ugly/unpretty girl" ?
Some descriptions are kinda abstract but I can't give quotes because I didn't read the books in english.
Same question for men.
That is such a great question! I will add it to my list of video ideas!
Another man saying if a man does something wrong to a woman it's her fault.. It's in the big book of sermons 🤦♀️
Sadly, I suppose some things never change. 😞
@@EllieDashwood don't worry, funky millennials. Us genZs got yo backs
@@saragarofano6471 as someone in gen z if you look at the men of our gen I think we might have to re state that statement
@@EllieDashwood At least you have it reversed in Rumpole's junior Mizz Liz Probert.
Some of these ideals sound so strange when expressed overtly like this in the form of a sermon, but of course many of them still persist today. The idea that the best thing a woman can be is beautiful is still going strong, and we still conflate beauty and morality for a woman. We still put a lot more responsibility on women to be the pure, moral center of the domestic sphere. I'm sure many of us still believe on some level that it's a woman's job to "refine" the man in her life. So really, Fordyce didn't describe much we don't still believe today - he just said it in plain language instead of implying it.
Yes, all you have to do is wait for election season and here come the stupid articles about how Wife of Candidate will help to "present his softer side" and "file down his rough edges" and make him "more human, more likable". Hello, NOT HER JOB
Or, she comes out on stage with him after he's caught dallying with a campaign aide, and here is Wifey "standing by her husband" and biting her lower lip, looking downcast and miserable. Hello, if it were my husband, I'd be all like "YOU'RE OWN YOUR OWN, DUMBASS"
Not holding my breath waiting for a world where men have to deal with their own shortcomings.
I find it very interesting that while many religious people preach against female vanity and demonize things like make up and dressing up, these sermons tell young women to improve what god gave them. Is a refreshing idea
That's an interesting point!
This is a great piece, and I am very impressed that you took the time to read the first of Fordyce's "sermons." I had assumed by the name sermon that these were tedious religious exercises, and had no idea they were really a "women's conduct book." Fordyce's pieces about the duty to please parents and please husbands can lead to great injustice if the parents or the husband are themselves selfish, shallow, greedy, domineering, and Austen does not put that element into her novels, but you correctly point out that Austen does put much of the rest of Fordyce into her novels.
I particularly appreciate your observation that prior to what we may call the "Fordyce movement," the prevailing image in Europe of women were as corrupt or immoral creatures, and how the "Fordyce vision" had the effect of elevating women's status, first by urging women to have self-esteem, and second by positing that women can be the improvers and inspirers of men, and thus also of other women, and thus of society in general. You are actually recognizing in 2021 a genuine value to people of today of this part of what Fordyce wrote almost 300 years before, because of its effect on women's role in the centuries after Fordyce. So often today people scorn everything someone said, because one part of what they said, or did, deserves ridicule today. You have avoided that habit, separating the scorn-deserving from the praise-deserving portions of a prior writer.
As you say, by recognizing the inherent ability of women having the ability to transform and reform society for the better, women "had something to have self-respect about," meaning "uplifters of all humanity. ... This was a very important step into getting to the view of women that we have today." This is sociological analysis, which you then fit Austen's work into.
According to Fordyce, the way to be improvers of society is that women either "reform men, or you refine them." As you say, Eliza Bennett does this with Darcy - he is already reformed, but not yet sufficiently refined. Elizabeth has the power to refine Darcy, the richest of all of Austen's heroes. I think this is the basic reason why Pride & Prejudice is the most popular of Austen's novels, because no other Austen heroine does this - not Emma, not Elinor nor Marianne, not Anne Elliot, not Fanny Price, not Catherine Morland. All they do is have the merit of character to attract the dedication and commitment of men who are already both reformed and refined: Knightley, Edward & Brandon, Capt. Wentworth, Edmund, and Henry. These men see that these women have the character to be both good companions for themselves, and good mothers to their children. But Elizabeth is something more. She improves and changes her man. None of the others do that.
This is why the Elizabeth of the 1980 video version is so far superior to the Elizabeth of the famous 1995 version: the 1995 Elizabeth does not have it in her to reform or refine, she only judges men, usually behind their backs, with snarky comments. I find her unwatchable, frankly; she is the worst of all Eliza video & movie versions - which is the fault of the writer and director, not of the actress.
Your observation that the Bennett family is an example of what not to be, according to Fordyce - girls, don't be Lydia; mothers, don't be Mrs. Bennett - shows that Austen was in fact doing a better job, through her dramatic writing, of advancing and persuading women to adopt Fordyce's vision, than Fordyce himself was able to do, with his didactic writing.
Your last bit - about how Fordyce says women should be good mothers in order to serve the glorious British Empire - is hilarious. "Fordyce - he has his priorities." A good piece of snark yourself here - and spot-on.
Every time I watch one of your videos, I learn SO much more than I expected. You are really helping me enjoy Austen’s books even more with the context!
I hope I don't offend anyone with the comparison I'm going to make, but when I have been reading Jane Austen's books and books about the time period, it has often struck me in how many ways their views on women's roles were similar than they are nowadays in some muslim families I have met. All that talk about "honour" and how it depends on women's behaviour and how one false step of a daughter can ruin the whole family in the eyes of society. Also the norms of behaving for women in regency time resembles those of some stricter muslim countries nowadays - forexample that women should not be walking around alone or travelling without a male relation or male servant etc.
That's super interesting! I think these norms of human behavior are repeated and adapted to different cultures around the world, many of them in our day. I guess even though times change, basic human behavior and beliefs really doesn't in some case. 🧐
It's really sexist, a society's morals being measured by their women's behavior, particularly their sexual behavior. Even today I see men on RUclips message boards point to women's sexual freedom as the reason for society's, "moral decline."
There are many reckless women today that could certainly benefit from having a chaperone. In some cases it could save their well being and even life.
I just randomly found your channel and I am so glad I did. Thank you for posting . It was very interesting. I kind of figured Fordyce's Sermons were that kind of instructional book but never actually looked further into it. It would be kind of fun to get a print out of it for my personal library to be paired along side Pride and Prejudice (as well as Austen's other books) and see if anyone of my visitors catch on.
That would be so funny! You should offer to read it to any visitors in the evening and see if they make the connection. 😂 Also, welcome to the channel!!!! 😃😊
@@EllieDashwood Or see if they remember they left their stove on at home...
The positive effect of Elizabeth on Darcy is one of the things modern women like most about Darcy. He was willing and able to grow for Lizzy (though being tall, handsome, and rich might also contribute).
You do mention Mr. Collins a lot, and I think he deserves at least one video of his own. In discussions, I something think I'm one of very few who recognize that his pomposity is a defense mechanism, a way of surviving what has surely been a lifetime of shame and humiliation. Would I want to hang out with him? Heck no! But do I have a little understanding. I think so.
Uh-oh... I spotted the kitty in the background and now I'm back to listening to Ellie while entranced by the kitty.
😂 This really is my cat's channel!
@@EllieDashwood That's pretty much anything with a cat. You start it for you and then they just take it over.
What's the time stamp??? 😀
I have found the cat. I have moved on. I'm a different person now. I no longer seek the cat. I now seek to know the cat's NAME 😀
Moral Mansplaining: The Book. Was this the Regency version of The Miracle of Forgiveness?
I’m not familiar with the book you mentioned, but Fordyce’s Sermons was a major morality book of the time.
@@EllieDashwood It sounds a lot like what I grew up with. The pressures are relevant. The ideas are still very present. Its no wonder we are still reading Austen.
Although today we see the idea of changing men through love out of date, there is a way of seeing it as the one that the people you love help you to be a better person than you are. Love cannot transform a bad person into a good person, but it can polish one's character. That is why at least I feel that having a partner / friendship / family should bring out the best in yourself. That is why Pride and Prejudice has nevertheless aged well, when other novels such as Jane Eyre and Wuthering Heights are not read as current.
@Ellie Dashwood
Grace Livingston Hill, if you've never heard of her, is the author of over 100 Christian romance novels that span a range of American history from the early 1800's to WWII. She's so much fun! She was a pastor's daughter and wife. Her views on the power of virtuous women to "reform and refine" the men around them are very well illustrated in her stories. I'm thinking she had a copy of Fordyce around somewhere! Also, the influence of John Ruskin shows up a lot -- he also wrote behavior guides for women that were quite popular in British society. And yet she was modern for her time. Anyone who has exhausted their Jane Austen reading list should give her a try!
Funny that he wrote behavior guides for women. He couldn't consummate his own marriage because he was so freaked out by the sight of his bride's pubic hair!
Interesting book, albeit more than a smidge patriarchal. Was there anything equivalent for young men? Was the author of that book married and had any children himself? It makes me wonder how his personal life was and what drove him to write the book, what his motivations were.
By the way, nice end card! 😊👍
He did write sermons for young men! Of course, it wasn’t as a best seller as his young women book was. Also, from what I read, he didn’t marry until he was older. And it seems he decided that too many young women were being led into vice in his surrounding London and that he needed to step in and give them some counsel from friendly benevolence. And yes, definitely more than a smidge. 😂
@@EllieDashwood haha. Oh boy. It takes two to tango, buddy boy.
There were such books for young men. George Washington wrote one.
@@l.jagilamplighterwright9211 Yes, and it's lovely!
In The Other Bennet Sister, Mary read this looking for approval to be herself. So sad.
That’s so intriguing! I haven’t read that one but it sounds like the author went an interesting direction with Mary’s character.
@@EllieDashwood I had read it and yes, I think it brings Mary toward an interesting path. The writing is not Mrs. Austen (who could?) but it is a good book. And I think that some of us, woman, still have by this idea that with enough love and care we can change someone. So this idea went a long way, if I may say so.
That's really interesting. I always thought when Mr. Collins mentioned wanting to read from it, it was just some religions sermons on the Bible. Now that I know it's a lecture from men to women on how to behave, it makes all the more sense that obnoxious Mr. Collins wants to read it to them as he selects his wife, and makes Lizzy no doubt despise him all the more!
Are there annotated versions of Jane Austen's works with little historical notes like this? It would have been so helpful to know this the first time I read it!
I haven't read this novel in a while, and I don't have access to a copy. But I recall this young woman who was at the very pinnacle of society commenting sharply when Darcy mentions something about marrying Elizabeth, "Then you would have a very gracious mother in law". It went something like that. But she knows that Darcy is dangerously attracted to Elizabeth before Darcy knows it. I also recall this young woman sitting at a harpsichord enumerating all the qualities a high born woman should have. Someone makes the comment that there are only a few women like that, and Elizabeth says, "I am surprised there are any."
Wow, all your videos are so interesting. I have always been interested in literature set during the Regency Era and your videos are so enlightening. I would like to ask a doubt I've had since I first read pride and prejudice.
In the letter Mr. Darcy sents to Elizabeth, we see this line - "she was taken from school, and an establishment formed for her in London;" regarding Georgiana . I have always wondered what it meant to form an establishment for a young lady.
I also wonder if all those things about being "ruined" in society are true and how exactly does it translate into real life. And what are the ways in which this ruination can happen?
Also in your vocab video, you said a poor woman could force a man to marry her by swearing that her child is his. Seems like this could be easily exploited. How exactly did it work?
Love your videos! Hope to see more.😘😘
Thank you so much! Those are all great questions! I’ll add them to my list of video ideas to be incorporated in futures videos. 😃😊
And yes, all those things about being ruined in society were definitely true. In fact, the source of the high number of prostitutes in London were women from the lower classes who had been “ruined” and now they had few other options in life. But it’s definitely a topic that would be great to talk more about in a video! 😃
@4Freedom4All She probably just wrote her novels for people in her social class.
They were not interested in reading about servants and about real poverty.
And I must say it's amazing that Jane Austen wrote as much as about "fallen women" and illegitimate children as she did.
Because that is not a subject, that would have been discussed openly within the gentry.
@4Freedom4All My research indicates that "Fitzwilliam" only means "son of" William. The notion of illegitimacy was introduced by a specific case and was not true across the board.
It would have been like having Seventeen magazine around the house when I was a teenager. The magazines weren’t only about fashion and style, but boys (what to/not to do), health (if you’re my age, there were articles on STDs (and scary (to me) ones) every other month or so. And of course, celebs.
I really enjoyed hearing about Fordyce, and his views which were so prevalent at that time. Men were the real people, and women the complementary creatures God gave them, to keep them happy and good. Fairly one sided? If Mary Bennet is the main follower of Fordyce in the family, she appears to be doing so by default, as the least attractive daughter trying hard to be good and attractive. I recently read "The Other Bennet Sister" by Janice Hadlow, about Mary Bennet of course, a very long Regency novel depicting the trajectory of Mary during and after P&P, viewing events from her point of view. Have you read this one? Will you be doing a review? I thought it was a pretty good, and definitely interesting, book, giving an alternate read of Mary.
In Pride and Prejudice Mary is just dumb. None of her words make sense. I'm reading the book right now - just meaningless teachings - they sound like hollow quotes. She doesn't need her own story. In addition, she makes no effort to fit - on the contrary, she is kinda antisocial.
The point about women bringing their families up towards a greater godly idea reminds me alot of Harriet Beecher Stowe’s aim in writing Uncle Toms Cabin. Ladies, raise you and your families moral standards above evil and slavery, and we can use our powers for abolition
It's sort of an aikido move -- if you can pull off being "The Angel in the House", people igniring you are ignoring an angel. A couple generations later the same trick turns into the beginnings of public health and social services, the topic of _How Women Saved the City_.
i just love the hidden scarsam Ellie uses
I actually really wish we had codes of conduct nowadays that cared about morals and virtue. I don't see much wrong with this sermon as you describe it, except the constant emphasis on women's physical appearance. I wish women had this kind of dignity nowadays, I hope I can cultivate it in myself. I would also love it if you did a video on another one of his sermons!!!
We definitely need more morals and virtue in today's world!
I think I could easily take the appearance stuff more as ‘take care of yourself’ rather than ‘make yourself pretty’. Things like make sure your personal hygiene is kept up, your home is tidy, be less indulgent with unhealthy food (chocolate everyday is probably going to backfire), make sure you have a routine and keep up with exercise etc. When you take care of yourself it shows. I don’t mean as in loosing weight but more mental health, which in turn will show on the outside too in your manner and confidence. Basically wellness? Probably not explaining well as it’s 3.30am
@@sierralarars I totally agree that taking it that way is healthier, and you're right, we should strive to do those things, but tbh I think he really does mean just plain physical beauty. That we're to do everything within our powers to have it, to obsess over it in order to please men. That is how people spoke about women's roles in those days. They'd shamelessly say "women need to focus on being pleasing to men" and then explicitly praise aesthetically pleasing women over others. I don't think that is healthy. But again I totally see your point, and yes, we can take that advice in a particular (healthier) way.
@@lsjt8924 But if that is all he cared about, he would not talk about self-respect; I think his ideas are basically take care of yourself, but Regency style.
The problem with these codes of conduct is that they promote sexist double standards.
I'd love to see if modern elegance and deportment teachers, such as Anna Bey here on youtube, would embrace or reject these teachings. Ms. Bey, specifically, teaches elegance and femininity are the key to landing a rich husband. I've been drawing links between her videos on how to not be trashy and catty, and videos on how to be a lady in Victorian/Georgian/Romance/Etc Era times.
That would be interesting. I’ve seen her videos and I’m iffy about the message (but to each their own). I think she’d embrace some aspects but reject others (she does say that women should get an education and stand on their own merits to begin with).
@@YaoiHoshi They're very hit or miss for a lot of people, according to the comments section. It's easy to take away the information that's good to you and leave behind whatever ideas you find outdated or tacky. I really enjoy her video format because it's formulaic and easily digested. Some of her ideas, though...
Oh, when I have read P&P (most often in Swedish) I always thought that Fordyce's sermons were more of "how everybody shall behave", but I didn't think about it much. Probably because Sweden has a slightly different "litterature universe" (for non-scholars).
When I hear Fordyce's idea that women shall try to inspire the men in their lifes, I imediatelly thought of Barbara Cartland 🤓 I can't remember ANY of her heroines that didn't made the hero go back to the ideals he had when he was very young, or, as a variation; he "had never met such a pure and goodhearted woman before" 😁
I haven't read Fordyce's Sermons and I've never had much interest in them ... I much prefer Samuel Johnson's essays. He atleast doesn't sermonise to half the population as to their "rightful" place. (my sarcasm).
Despite not having read Fordyce's Sermons I do have some general comments:
1. P&P is quite specific that Mr Collins found the book at Longbourne. I always assumed the copy was Mary's. I think it's exactly the sort of book she would model her behaviour on and it would interesting to understand how her behaviour and comments conform to Fordyce, especially her remarks on Lydia's virtue.
2. I don't have a high opinion of Fordyce's comments regarding the reforming role of women in the house, which entrenched themselves throughout the the Victorian era even as he fell out of fashion. My views are philosophical and grounded in the inconsistency between placing responsibility on the least powerful/influential parts of society to reform or at least moderate the sex with actual power. And by power I mean economic, decision-making and even the ability to leave the house without restriction eg witness Lady Catherine's attention to Lizzy travelling back from visiting Mr and Mrs Collins which is not only to ensure her personal safety but that of her reputation. Go Mary Wollstonecraft in her Vindication of the Rights of Women; she was eons ahead of her time.
3. Jane Austen's use of irony and wit around including Fordyce's Sermons in the novel--how do the following align?
* Mr Collins not approving of novels and then finding Fordyce's. Is JA saying of course this would be the way? Is there a connection between Mr Collins' ridiculousness and the sermons?
* I understand Fordyce's Sermons had gone out of fashion by the end of the 18th century, before P&P was published, hence Fordyce and Mr Collins both are both old fashioned and unfashionable
* Lydia does everything the sermons condemn and falls from grace, but Lydia's fall from grace is to be expected based on the mores of the day. Her sisters by contrast are not reduced to penury and tarnished by their sister's behaviour , which I believe Fordyce promotes, and two go on to make highly advantageous marriage. Is Fordyce right in his reference to all?
* I don't think across JA's six novels she projects her heroines as reformers, or punishes/prevents women who act outside Fordyce's strictures: eg at no time was Fanny a reformer of Henry Crawford, or Marianne Dashwood the same for Willoughby. There are also multiple women who might be considered villains who prosper/are not punished: eg the extremely venal women in Sense and Sensibility such as the manipulative Lucy Steele and the unpleasant Mrs Dashwood.
Great talking points and interpretations. You always have so much to think about and to frame opinions around. I love exploring my thoughts after your videos as always and look forward to the next one. :)
Aw thank you! And those are all great points!!!
Fanny Dashwood is the worst person ever.
Didn't Mary quote something about women's behaviour at the breakfast table at one point? Maybe after they found Lydia had run away?
Did you make up the name, "Ellie Dashwood" for this site? It seems to perfect :-)
In China, the equivalent will most likely be 《女誡》 (Or in English Translations "Warnings for Women".) It was written during the Han Dynasty. Ironically it was writteny by a woman, Ban Zhao.
It outlines the Four Womanly Virtures- Speech, Conduct, Manner and Merit
It also outlines how the relationship between a woman and her parents, and her husband, and her in-laws should be conducted.
It was quite popular during the last two dynasties, Ming and Qing. Women's position and status were quite low during these two Dynasties and this books was a must read for girls in noble families.
The guide even tells ladies are virtuous if "they're not so intelligent as to outshine their husband."🙈
I feel like there was a missed opportunity in this video to dissect Mansfield Park, because that entire book is about these themes.
That’s such a good point! 🤔
I would love you to do a video on the books which Regency Era young women would have read. What would Elizabeth Bennett have curled up with a blanket to read?
I just kept thinking about Fanny in Mansfield Park and how she is blamed for Mr. Crawford's misdeeds. And that she could have prevented it if only she made her piety "rub off on him."
Also I see a lot of fanfics depict Mary as constantly reading this book and moralizing about it but she's also not living up to them
Bearing in mind that most women wanted to achieve a good marriage these sermons would have been essential reading. I agree, there is intentional irony referencing them here that women readers of the time would have easily recognised. Well done Ms Austen. X
A dove commercial…. That’s awesome!
Then isn't Jane like the perfect example of what you should do?
This seems to play out in Mansfield Park too, don’t you think? With people insisting that Fanny can reform Henry Crawford and her rejecting the idea. It’s been a long time since I’ve read the book, though.
I'm so glad I found this video! Thank you for making it! I've been looking for some direction in my life and this clicked so much for me. I'm definitely picking up this book of sermons from the library to read it all for myself. If I can just put into practice some of the items mentioned in the first sermon alone, I'm sure my life will change for the better! I really enjoy your content!
Great video! Love your content
As! Thank you!!!
I always meant to look into Fordyce's Sermons.
Love the kitty in the background 😍
This was very interesting. Thank you for going into this. Can you find these sermons in Eformat?
Yes you can! I found it on an excellent website I subscribe to called forgottenbooks.com . They have so many fantastic authentic historical resources, many that are hard to find or out of print or extremely expensive normally.
So Lydia herself being bored at the reading is actually particularly funny!
I can't say I disagree with any of those standards in particular. It lends a kind of beautiful dignity to womanhood we don't get to enjoy today.
And it created better men too,
I do not completely disagree, but def the whole being loved by men, your morality is what influences adult men's behaviours... Nope.
That said, I like your take even better: beautiful, dignified womanhood.
@@LaVaneBea
So, women were being taught they can change men? We're still trying to unlearn that. 🙂
BTW, I can't do meek, nor do I feel I should have to. Expecting an entire gender to have the same temperament is unreasonable.
If I understand correctly:
Before Fordyce--Women are baby-making machines designed to support men's egos.
After Fordyce--Women are baby-making machines designed to support men's egos, with additional restrictions.
In every case, whatever happens is the woman's fault.
Women were never baby-making 'machines': this is a misconception born of the different standards of our modern overpopulated society. Back when infant mortality was high and life expectancy lower as a whole, parenthood (not just motherhood, though women were given more respect as they did more of the work!) was viewed in the same light as we might view climate activists today. 'Saving the planet' - for people back in a more naturally brutal age, 'saving the human race' was the best one could do! Parenthood was considered both an honour and a duty by both men and women. It's a social situation we can't really understand today, because of overpopulation lowering the value of having children for us today.
Really interesting video! What you say about Fordyce's central view being that the best thing for a woman is being a good wife and mother, it makes perfect sense that Collins would be reading from him. He's at the Bennetts' place to find a wife, he wants to bolster the view that marriage for marriage's sake is a good thing, and he wants to reinforce to the Bennett girls that they should be grateful that he's offering one of them the chance to become a wife.
Offhand, have you ever done a video about the relative social standing of the characters in Pride and Prejudice? I'm a bit confused about the specifics, simply because there seem to be so many factors in play. Is Elizabeth justified in defending herself to Lady Catherine as being of the same theoretical social class as Darcy ("he is a gentleman, I am a gentleman's daughter")? Is there any justification in Caroline Bingley making fun of Sir William Lucas' commercial background, or is this just Caroline being a hypocritical snob? Doesn't Caroline ultimately have the same background? And for that matter, is Caroline the better social catch for Darcy that she thinks she is compared to Elizabeth? Does her rich but non-genteel background beat Elizabeth's poor but genteel one?
I actually had no idea what the four dices sermons were! I thought it was just some boring church doctrine Collins had
I’m sure he has tons of those too! 😂😂😂
I love your pink top and I feel relaxed listening to your voice. This is such great work you are doing here
6:08 please do a video enumerating “Stations” of the era and the regency understandings of “stations”.
Girl Defined should review this book like ”yup, yup, yup”
Weird sermon that doesn’t align with the Bible’s view of women…🤔
Agreed. I wonder if they're actually using the word sermon here somewhat loosely?
That's one pretty 'floof' in the background. Introduce kitty to your viewers in your next video. 😻
Fordyce was quite skeptical of novel-reading. Not in principle, but he thought there were only a few novels that were not immoral.
So true!
Imagine what he'd make of our pop culture today!
@4Freedom4All would he? The Austen heroines who get a happy ending are close to Fordyce’s ideal in many ways...
You can see similar ideology in Louisa May Alcott's works. A little in Little Women, but very centric in An Old-Fashioned Girl, Eight Cousins, & Rose in Bloom, & in various of her short stories. Virtuous and accomplished women uplifting men, who in turn use their masculine strength and virtues to protect and guide women, in mutual respect.
how very romantic of mr collins to sit and read to the women he expected to propose to on how they were expected to behave. you know what i have never understood about the higher classes of the past... the men were all but expected to have mistresses while the women were not even expected to enjoy sex with their husbands. they were much too delicate for such a thing, so the husband was expected to go seek carnal pleasure elsewhere. but should a woman enjoy it, and dare say, seek it out from her husband, well, she was just a scarlett woman. i do not agree with adultery on either side and i can understand why it was important for women to not commit it. it must be known that any children were, in fact, the biological child of the father, so that they could inherit and keep the blood line going. but men are capable of monogamy too and should have been expected of it.
Absolutely! I'm not at all feminist but the one double standard of 'patriarchal' times that makes my blood boil was that men could get away with, or even be celebrated for, infidelity where women were rigorously kept to moral standards with little charity for human frailty. It wasn't quite so unequal in Shakespeare's time (Henry the Eighth just got away with it because he was a king) but by the Victorian Era it was beyond infuriating. Gone With the Wind made me so MAD sometimes!
This is a great channel
As a modern trans dude I have no use for this knowledge WHATS so ever but I am still taking notes
What a difficult time it was for everyone, especially women and with double standards to try to live up to!
This lifestyle is my nightmare. The only good thing about being a woman in the Regency era to me is if you were rich enough you were at least materially comfortable. The rules and obligations of this rigid social hierarchy, and the superficiality of all of its obsessions, sounds absolutely excruciating. I can't see how there was even the slightest amount of authenticity anywhere- not in your relationships or your activities- as friendships were all based on jockeying for position, marriages were all based on money and status, and activities were all based on what other people told you to do. Did a woman have even one thing she got to do just because she liked to, or one friend with whom she had a genuine connection? OMG. It all sounds so fake. I'd want to die.
4:10 Look: I know it was the regency era and I know that I clicked on this video voluntarily but: it’s ✨_the male gaze_✨ for me.
Raising upstanding children over fashion flexing 🤷🏽♀️ I love your videos on this era!!! I will be watching more!!!
Aw! Thank you!
I think you were supposed to do both, because women need to be beautiful and an important part of that is to wear nice clothes. I don't think being a mother stopped your responsibility to look pretty for your husband.
@@ElizabethJones-pv3sj This is true! But maybe you should wear beautiful English clothes? That would fix all this French fashion stuff while still keeping you pretty for your husband. 😂
I mean... Men feeling entitled to criticize women's fashions is extremely annoying. It happens nowadays with men who are so woke that they want to nitpick one for being feminine.
A good women absolutely can inspire men. I've witnessed men make better decisions simply because a kind virtuous women entered the room (saying nothing and having influence over nothing) while they were thinking. I don't recommend this being used in a "I can change him" toxic relationship sense though lol. I've also witnessed the difference between a man who grew up with sisters, and those who did not. If we want to go the biblical rout, and I know not everyone will, the literal Hebrew translation says woman was created as a "rescuer of man." (To serve has many meanings. So, the exact words chosen matters.)
omg the idea of only existing to please men. BARF!
I laughed and laughed so much at this episode like OMG my purpose is to be lovable by men 6:35 😂😂😂😅😅
Dangerous liaisons, although Valmont wanted to seduce Madame do Tourvel, her virtue and morality influenced him to be a better man.
He even seemed to prefer choosing virtue over vice, and even he choose immortality he immediately regretted it
That's why he made his confessions in the end..
Tell us about your adorable, fluffy kitty!!!!
Also, awesome video!
Ahhh! Thank you! My cats make regular appearances over on my Instagram @ elliedashie - They think it’s their account 😂
@@EllieDashwood it is! They only allow you to admin it....
As a counterpoint, Austen might have chosen Fordyce by serendipity, as a way to compound Mr Collins' character. As noted, the Bennets owned the copy of the sermons. It is inconcievable that the sisters (at least Jane, Elizabeth and Mary!) had not read it cover to cover for their general education in etiquette and morality &c. Mr Collins then coming in and insisting he read it to them then comes across as perfectly in line with his delusions of grandeur and superciliousness, that at best that they would own such a volume and not have read it, or worse that they are in need of someone to interpret it for them. Man needs a prompt, unscheduled swim in the pond if you ask me, preferably with rocks in his vestments.
This is not a criticism but a question. Why are there so many micro cuts? Does RUclips do that automatically. Watching the cat in the background, it doesn’t look like she flubbed and re-recorded (which I do all the time for my work training videos).
I would definitely have been on Mary Wollstonecraft's side.
Ewww no.
Hmm, well of course it’s an interesting sociological discussion, but to be brutally frank, I don’t think Fordyce was that much different than most of us when it comes to Jane Austin’s novels and the movies made from them: we are focused on the attraction between virtuous men and virtuous (oh, and I almost forgot, PRETTY) women, and we want those attractions to lead to matrimony.
I think I could enjoy hanging out with Fordyce, if he had a sense of humor as well as the desire for me to be virtuous and pretty 😁.
I am currently obsesses with a particular historical figure from the era (dont ask for name you probably wont know him) and am researching every aspect of the era now...
Which is why at 5:30 I know it is the waltz Wiener Blut from Strauß playing in the background XD
I love when things connect and the full picture is being slowly pieced together from all the fragments!
That being said: Wiener Blut is not from the regency era (looking at the years now, because the time was actually called Biedermeier in Austria where Strauß is from). It was written later.
I'm interpreting way too much into them using royalty free music am I not...
Does anybody have a pdf version of fordyce's sermons?
I always appreciate when nuance is added to the discussion about how women were treated in history. I believe that men have always at least loved their female kin and so have never sought out to harm women as a whole, but rather protect what they love. I believe a woman’s ability to stir primal urges within man and the risk of pregnancy if she does is what drove the beliefs and practices of history. Eve, you have power so use it wisely or you could die in childbirth. Does that make sense?
Does to me.
Thank you for putting this outdated book into context and not just trashing it from the perspective of a modern day woman in America because let’s face it a modern-day woman in another country and I’m not gonna name countries, might be looking at that book as something progressive! Now Did I LOL when you read that first statement where he says basically what better thing can a woman do it then make herself more appealing to us? Yes yes I literally laughed out loud because it was funny. But if you look at that statement from a non-cynical eye it makes sense. At the time it was absolutely a man’s world so technically he’s trying to help women out. he saying, look what im asking you to do is to embody purity and goodness and all these things that we Christians are SUPPOSED to hold dear. so by making yourself more appealing to men in this manner and not some other manner you are bettering society because an upstanding christian man SHOULD value these noble qualities and behaviors, and that’s who you want to appeal to. You’re not gonna be doing yourself any favors by acting like a a little hoochi mama and what they would’ve considered a hooch back then would not be consider a Hoochie by todays standards so sure it’s a rigid set of rules. but the point still remains: you live in this time this is how the world works so this is how you might want to behave. Basically you’ll catch more flies with honey then you will with vinegar. Maybe he was acknowledging Darwinian evolution and the importance of sexual selection. Because the truth of the matter is women decide how men are going to act based on what men they choose to be with. Really this guy was being sneaky he saying Everywoman should act as a noble pure Christian ideal and therefore men will come to value these qualities and that shapes society and we will have a more pure and Christian society. This guy knew he had to appeal to women in order to influence a male dominated society. Or maybe I’m just giving him too much credit I don’t know.
Wolstencraft wrote her vindication in response to Rousseau’s if I remember correctly. His did not include women, evidently. And, at the time physical effort, thinking too much, etc, weren’t good for women. It would dry up their wombs. Think Elizabeth walking and thinking a lot. She was a radical and a rebel.
PS Wolstencraft was Mary Shelley’s mother. She wrote the first Goth novel - FRANKENSTEIN!!
The more I reflect on my abusive marriage, the more I watch true crime stories, the more I see of the vices in this world, the more I tend to agree with ye olde courtship and marriage processes, and even morality. The single largest demographic of victims of abusive relationships, of rape and murder, and of serial killers are vulnerable women like prostitutes and women with weak family and social connections.
Hi, I hope you're doing okay? Have you got supportive friends and family to be there for you?
Mr Collins would probably take it as a compliment
"For the unbelieving husband is sanctified through his believing wife. " (1 cor 7:14). Proverbs 31 has much to say about good women as well. I can say that the love and encouragement of a good wife can make a good man strive to be even better. All bets off if he's a narcissist though...
Fordyce perhaps did not consider Elizabeth Bennett an ideal, due to her 'quick wit' and propensity to 'grow brown' and romp out of doors. Yet she embodies the values of the sermons you highlighted. If anyone is an ideal in behavior in Pride and Prejudice, it would be Jane. Yet Jane's passive purity would have led to her ultimate ruin had not Elizabeth's real virtue and self-esteem caused a change of fortune for the whole family. Georgiana Darcy was groomed to be Fordyce's ideal. However, her passive acceptance of the adoration of a man without contemplation caused her to act in exactly the same way as Lidia Bennett, who was brought up to believe morality the provence of a dowager. I think Austen's feminist take is that no matter what the prevailing wind of thought is on female behavior, virtue takes fortitude and effort. Only when that effort is applied does a good woman achieve her desired results.
FRANKENSTEIN Wolstonecraft was Mary Shelly's mother. Mary, married to the poet Shelly, on a rainy and cold, summer Italian sabbatical with hubby and poet Byron ( "mad, bad, and dangerous to know" ) wrote Frankenstein on a challenge they made to each other to write a "scary" story.
So obviously it's outdated and I do appreciate that there was feminist discussion of it even back then and women who are critical of it but as far as guys deciding how women should behave it's not really too bad it doesn't sound like he hated women and as I'm a person who believes in meeting people where they are and understanding the context of their life before passing judgment I'm not offended by his beliefs
I think he definitely didn’t hate women! Nor did he have bad intentions. He definitely was just a product of the time and culture he was raised in.
@@EllieDashwood absolutely. I kinda like the "recognize you are powerful and valuable" stuff that was super unexpected
@@dismurrart6648 hold on. He said women are ‘powerful and valuable’ only insofar as they behave according to their only purpose in life, which is to be subservient and ‘useful’ to men. I guess it was empowering at that time (compared to the views on women that existed before) , but it’s telling that feminists were calling him out even back in his time.
@@YaoiHoshi so im not trying to downplay it, it's still really sexist. It's just more that within the sexism of the time I can see some women feeling okay with that if that makes sense.
Like it's almost refreshing that while being a benevolent sexist he wanted women to feel positive emotions about who they are vs a lot of what im used to where even modern benevolent sexists don't seem to think that women have emotions or that they matter.
Like theres just something novel in this for me more than that I think its good.
After I read the sermon I understood my WAPS side much better. It's 2021 and they still practice the same morals.
Hmm ... Regency era girl? Victorian age girl? Edwardian age girl? 2000's age girl? I know which one I would pick!
(Thx Ellie. I just luv your videos!)
Watching some older video's that I somehow missed and had a funny thought run through my head in the last part about Mrs Bennet and Lydia and how Mary is constantly quoting and talking about these sermons. My laugh was that Mary could actually be more sarcastic, witty, and humorous than her father and Lizzy - she sits there and reads tracts that make fun of her family, and they simply don't get that their faults are being outlined. She wanders off and has a laugh for herself of how dense and self-absorbed they all are that they don't get what she is doing. She's a bit of a Snape and feels herself surrounded by dunderheads that don't even see when they are being put down.
I may have to go back for a re-read to see any hints from Austen that Mary isn't as obliviously pedantic as she appears. Is Mary making fun of them, for Austen?
Even the scene about the balm of sisterly consolation could be read as a dig since Jane and Lizzy rarely ever interact in a close sisterly manner to Mary... I think I want to see an actress play THIS Mary! Snide glances, eye rolling, sotto voiced 'idoits' as she leaves a room.
I wonder if there was a version for young men, or men in general?
Would like to know too!
Strictly speaking, although England had much of India by this time, it didn't become a formal Empire until Victoria's time