Who Did Rin Summon In EMIYA's Original Timeline?
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 7 сен 2024
- The question old as time itself
www.hollowpara...
Channel Merch: teespring.com/...
Subscribe for more content: goo.gl/wvduQG
Follow me on Twitter - / tsiahiv
Support the channel - / tsiahiv
#FateGrandOrder #FGO #fatestaynight
Join the discord - / discord
![Don't SLEEP On EMIYA [Fate/Stay Night/FSN]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/PtuclbStRRE/mqdefault.jpg)
One thing that could put Shiro in the same position is if His and Rin's alliance is actively more affected by Robin Hood because he was definitely a much more social character and given his historical position as an underdog I could see him getting along with Shiro, training him, and directly departing wisdom about his life and how it ended. I feel that could Psychologically and Morally put Shiro onto the path to EMIYA.
OH MY GOD THIS IS FANFICTION SHIROU WONT BECOME EMIYA IN ANY OF THE ROUTES NASU SAID THIS IM SO SICK OF PEOPLE WANTING HIM TO BE SOME EDGY DND ROUGE BECAUSE THEY THINK EDGY IS MATURE AND SERIOIS GOD
@There_Is_No_War_In_Ba_Sing_Se If I had to say something, just because a character that’s well written whom can be seen as cool or unique doesn’t necessarily make them edgy. But then, what does the term edgy actually mean? If you’re using it without knowing, it’s just a simple mistake, or the highest height of stupidity that one can get to. I’d say read the story carefully, and reply with a more understanding response instead of your nonsensical comment.😂
@@There_Is_No_War_In_Ba_Sing_Se Well there's also another problem, that being how messed up and inconsistent Nasu and gang are especially when describing the original Timeline/Route where Shirou becomes Archer.
At first they said it was a timeline/route similar to Fate, but one where Shirou/Archer never fell in love with any of the Heroines, especially Artoria/Saber herself, thus also never saving her heart. But then they start saying and describing the route as being more similar to UBW and that Shirou/Archer is in a relationship with Rin?! Like what the Heck?! Didn't they just described that the timeline/route Shirou/Archer is from is a Route where he never falls in love with any of the three heroines?! Why are they suddenly changing it, and why are they saying it's Rin?! Like I get why he isn't in love with Artoria/Saber but why is he suddenly in a Relationship with Rin?! What about Sakura?! Last time I checked she too was in Shirou's life!
@@There_Is_No_War_In_Ba_Sing_Se Someone's triggered.
I was always under the impression that EMIYA never knew who revived him at the start of his grail war after he was stabbed by Cu, so he ended up carrying the pendant with him for the rest of his days eventually giving his version of the pendant to Rin at the start of UBW as a thanks, because in his own timeline there would have never been a second pendant to make the connection that it was Rin who saved him and she would have had no real reason to tell him what she did.
Emiya saw her pendant was the same as his and he immediately drew the connection
@@There_Is_No_War_In_Ba_Sing_Se Yes. but in the first timeline where EMIYA was created, since he himself wasnt summoned by Rin there was only the one pendant he was revived with, so when he was summoned as Archer he finally made the connection since otherwise he would have never seen her with it.
@@idmunster4714 ah.
But the problem is if the fight between archer and Lancer would even happen since EMIYA won't be the one in the war and it could have never happened, that's why in the video he comes up with the idea that she gave it to him after that point.
> there would have never been a second pendant to make the connection
Shirou only know about the 2nd pendant in certain route(I believe only UBW, it's been a long time), but it was always there
Archer was said to come from a timeline similar to Fate but Saber was not saved, so he never saw the pendant like you said
the throne of heroes is outside of time so it doesn't matter, Archer was always summoned
There was a theory I saw that she failed to summon a servant but had command seal. She went to Kire and was given Gilgamesh (lied saying her servant was summoned and appeared in the church by accident) she then later was killed by him similar to Illya in UBW.
(Edit thanks for 360 likes!)
Interesting, but unlikely considering Archer (incredibly vaguely) remembers seeing Rin in the crowd at his public execution
@@spider_fan_boiI didn’t know she was in the crowd poor Archer
@@spider_fan_boiWhen is this mentioned?
@@Dompaser I don't remember exactly, honestly could be wrong
@@spider_fan_boiIf it's stated in JP wiki, properly from Nasu's web diary. I think the diary deletes its older entry so we can't always track it.
Archer answer where did he get Rin's Pendant in the series, he says that he got her pendant when his life was saved from a mortal injury by an unknown savior, he did not know who saved him, all he saw was a pendant in the floor belonging to the one who saved him, so he carried this pendant for his entire life to remember his "unknown savior". later on when he's summoned on the 5th grail war, he discover that Rin had saved him so he gives her pendant back, the one he carried for his entire life.
@@USPSArtoriaHe came from a similar route to that, but not the same. Also, in the anime the pendant still has it's color but in a darker tonality.
@@USPSArtoria nope. if you read story carefully, Nasu explains at some point in VN that Archer Emiya comes from the Bad routes of normal route of fate/stay night. The long story short is that Shirou emiya win in a normal route and becomes a good guy that gives up on trying to be a hero of justice in regular routes. Emiya Archer is a route where Rin wins the grail war and Rin sends Emiya to go at London Academy of magic eventually. at some point he becomes a obsessed with being hero of justice and goes on adventure until he dies into throne of heroes.
In summary, it is a route that never occurs in normal fate/stay night. in normal routes, he is stopped from becoming a hero of justice because of he realizes that evil is something that cannot be stopped(normal), Rin says it is not worth it(Ubw) or he cannot stop it because disabled(Heaven's feel). that is pretty much a summary of story itself because he regrets following the "true-path" that lead him into throne of heroes. this is also why in every single route, he wants to regain his memories and every time he partially remembers, it was always lands up to him wanting to kill shirou because he believes Archer[Emiya] servant is a mistake that should never exist. the result is that he always end up sacrificing himself because he does not want Rin to win the war. He does not want current shirou to become himself.
To follow up, things can pass between the branches, forward, backward, especially the more local the branch is. Rin's jeweled sword in HF was able to draw mana out of the air from neighboring timelines.
However, with the shenanigans caused by that, the original route could have just resulted in Shirou dying to Cu.
A kind of theory about that would be that since Shirou has the sheath of Excalibur, by legend you are not supposed to be able to be able to bleed with it. This is more true with the original owner around (Artoria). So any time he bleeds (especially after summoning Artoria) it creates a more apparent paradox. The root would then try different variations to correct the paradox so timelines where Shirou takes less harm by an opponent becomes closer to true history. However, the diverging point is already past the point where he is selected as a master which makes the chances of a branch where Shirou does not get hurt (and other true history events also occur) more unlikely.
Then, the more divergences occur, the more chances the branches interfere with new branches and the more abnormal they can become.
@@montyalb8788 All the paths are related to Shirou being physically destroy except in IBW.
The Fate series is awesome
realest comment
Hell ya
True
True
We all know this
In the original VN they do explain the the grail's powers trascend space and time. You could in theory summon future heroes that haven't even been born yet, but since no one knows their legends yet no one really does. The only reason Archer gets summoned is because of Rin's pendant acting as a catalyst, so he would be summoned every time. It's the same reason Archer tries to kill Shirou by giving him his arm in Heaven's Feel, he knows he's pretty much fucked and bound to the grail even if Shirou were to die or stop being a hero, so he hopes the contradiction of his own powers killing him somehow is going to mess with the grail and set him free.
Forgot about that for a second, that's an interesting thought.
While the Throne does transcend space and time, it is still a linear existence if that makes any sense.
If heroes that yet to exist are already in the Throne, then FGO’s Bedivere, who is considered a new Heroic Spirit separate from the original, would’ve already existed. But he didn’t. The Bedivere that bears Argetlam is a brand new Heroic Spirit recorded in the Throne of Heroes after the events of the Camelot Singularity.
Put simply: for something “new” to be in the Throne of Heroes, there has to first be nothing there. There has to be a timeline or universe where EMIYA doesn’t exist yet for EMIYA to exist.
@@ProjectTakeri mean you can summon Bedi hypothetically from tbe story gacha or event rate ups and thus theoretically you can grt him before ever meeting Bedivere
@@ProjectTakeri mean you can summon Bedi hypothetically from tbe story gacha or event rate ups and thus theoretically you can grt him before ever meeting Bedivere
@@d.n5287 I’m talking about lore.
We should also keep in mind that EMIYA also had knowledge about Caster in the UBW route, as well as being shocked seeing True Assassin in the HF route, because if his original timeline was meant to be somewhat similar to the Fate route, it doesn't line up well given his reaction in those two routes. To be honest, Nasu's interview about EMIYA's background was years after FSN release, so he likely wouldn't remember all the details from FSN. There is nothing wrong with that since this happens to a lot of creators who have expanded content based on the original source and sometimes forget from time to time.
I also do believe that Rin might have summoned Kid Gil since the Counter Force would've given him to her as a counter measure against the reincarnated Gilgamesh since Shirou hasn't become Archer yet. Plus, looking back at Hollow Ataraxia it wasn't just an amalgamation of the three routes, but also with pieces from the discarded routes like Illya and Rider, for example who got alot of screen time in the visual novel. For all we know, the elements from the other routes could have happened in EMIYA's original timeline.
Well Nasu did say that Emiya is from a timeline similar to the Fate route where he - as Shirou - didn't have a good enough bond with Saber.
This is the reason for that mini Saber arc in UBW where Archer says he was unable to save her from her path.
That's why she decides to remain in the UBW sunny days good end, to get the answer from Shirou.
Archer - still as Shirou - eventually follows Rin to the Clock Tower, but I'm betting they didn't have as close a relationship as they did in UBW.
Actually EMIYA Archer would have already existed at that point since as we know The Throne Of Heroes exists outside of the regular flow of time. That is to say that it very well could have been that future Emiya who was first summoned by Rin in the original timeline.
My thoughts:
-She uses a gem as a catalyst and then Ishtar shows up and for some reason they bicker until they are both defeated.
-Jokes are the deepest lore, therefore she summons Passionlip like in that drama cd.
-She summons Astraea an then they bicker until they are both defeated (again).
Based on analysis of the VN and watching other videos on the topic (boofire191's video on the topic was a big influence on most of the Prologue and Ending), I think the beginning works as: (Everything I don't mention will basically just be events from the fate route)
1) Rin summons no-one and so Kirei gives her Gilgamesh (meaning Kirei doesn't send Cu to figure out her servant's identity and power, since, originally, she only said she got a servant, not who/what class it was + Rin's contract would be similar to Shinji's with Gil in UBW, and so I think she wouldn't have command spells, but still have the bruise on her hand)
2) Shirou isn't stabbed and so Illya and Berserker attack him at his house. (No school battle = no stabby stab by Cu = Illya tries to kill Shirou in a style similar to Bad ending 1)
3) Saber is summoned, Saber vs Berserker (Full power Saber, who hasn't fought 2 other servants, would be able to drive off Berserker long enough for Rin to arrive) Rin goes over (seeing the battle), Rin and Gil join Shirou and Saber
4) Happens like the Fate route until the battle with Berserker at the mansion
Battle at the einzbern mansion:
1) Berserker fights Gil, and Gil kills Berserker (The exact fight from UBW)
2) Saber, Rin and Shirou escape, thinking Gil defeated Berserker (in fate, Rin loses her command spells, and, realising Archer's lost, then performs the "magic transfer" scene, but here Gil defeats them, so no fun times for Shirou today. Plus Rin just believes Gil lost to Berserker)
3) Caster attacks the Emiya house, then Gil returns and kills Caster (Same as the fate route + Even though they would've been on their guard since the mansion battle, Caster probably reveals in this scene that Berserker and his master are dead, then Gil reveals he's alive by killing Caster)
4) Gil reveals he's actually the archer servant from the 4th war, and leaves his contract with Rin (I'd say he knocked Illya out at the mansion and took her, like Kirei did in the Fate route. (if he took her heart, like in UBW, I'm not sure who the host would be in that case, since Shinji's already dead)
Ending with:
1) Saber joins Kirei (Saber joins them in fate if Saber isn't close enough to Shirou, which would happen in this)
2) Rin and Shirou figure out he can use UBW (Rin mentions in the fate route that it's possible shirou has projection, but it'd never followed up on there), and Rin reveals he can use her pendant's magic to use it. (Rin didn't use the pendant in the Prologue here, and so Shirou can use it to perform his "first miracle" as a hero of justice)
3) Shirou fights Gilgamesh with UBW (Another UBW fight in the fate route)
4) Lancer and Kirei are killed (Lancer probably joined Rin for the same reason he always joins their side, and Rin kills Kirei, but Saber kills Lancer)
5) The grail is destroyed (The plan could've been to force Saber to use her NP and direct it towards the Grail, forcing her to destroy it, killing her due to using up all her Mana (Kirei dies shortly after and Saber's able to get in some final words). Maybe Lancer made her blast him, Killing him, but the blast was so powerful, it also destroyed the grail (or after the grail's destroyed it tries to swallow Gil like in UBW, but then Lancer saves Shirou from Gil and jumped into the Black Hole with Gil, similar to how Archer shot an arrow at him and Gil fell in)
Edit: for Ending point 1) and 2), its possible Saber stabs Shirou like she does in that bad end, then Rin goes to the church and uses her pendant there to save save Shirou (since Kirei doesn't need to go and injure Rin, in order to get Illya, like in Fate, since he already has her from Gil, after the mansion battle), and then the UBW "magical transfer" scene happens to give Shirou enough energy to create UBW.
Although I personally think Saber would try to kill Shirou, but Rin enters and small battle happens there (maybe Rin makes a pack with Lancer during the battle) and then the pendant is later used as the energy source for UBW. Then Shirou faces Gil (UBW style) Rin faces Kirei (for revenge), and Lancer faces Saber (they need at least one fight each route, and he hasn't fought Saber yet).
The only problem is that it still creates paradox. How does he have weapons in UBW (and how does it exist for that matter?) when we know that UBW was a reality marble created and filled by EMIYA. Thing with time paradoxes is that they don't have to have beginning and end.
@jannegrey593 here's a description as to:
1) why Shirou creates his own UBW, and doesn't use Archer's version
2) Where Shirou could've learnt to make his own, via what happens in the fate route.
3) how it's filled up with unknown weapons I.E Rho Aias and Caladbolg
1) Shirou in UBW creates his reality marble simply by seeing Archer's and knowing he can make his own. (Shirou isn't using Archer's, he's creating his own, hence why Archer's has Gears in the sky while UBW Shirou's doesn't) it's also why Miyu-verse Shirou's UBW both:
A) has a different chant (Mentions striking diamond dust, and while Archer speaks the chant in English, Shirou speaks it in Japanese)
B) Why Kaleid's Miyu-verse Shirou has SNOWSTORM UNLIMITED BLADE WORKS!!!!!(Emiya's is a burnt hill with gears in the sky) (gets the knowledge that he can make it from Emiya's class card + the mana from Miyu's wish powers)
2) In the Fate route, Rin believes Shirou uses a reality marble, but doesn't act on this revelation in that route, so it should be easy for her to describe it enough for him to create it on his own in Archer's timeline, without seeing Archer's.
3) "All Projections! Successive Fire!" (Shirou replicates Gils Swords and fires them, in UBW) / "Sword Barrel! Full Open!"
When Shirou fights Gil in UBW and has multiple Swords in his reality marble already. (He gets these from tracing Gil's and some of Emiya's)
Before he became Emiya, the original timeline had most of these, then he got Swords/weapons Emiya probably saw as a counter guardian, resulting in Emiya's bigger inventory than UBW's Shirou.
Shirou just needs to see the weapon and its automatically in his inventory I.E Kanshou and Bakuya. He also gets Rho Aias from seeing Archer project it, (Even though it looks like Shirou creates it in the anime, Archer projects it in front of Shirou when Shirou's doing the UBW chant in the UBW anime) which he uses in the anime, before his final strike on Gil.
my headcanon for Rin's original Summon: The Chinese Blacksmith who made Kansho and Byakuya. (a tragic hero, who lost much I believe?)
it would explain where EMIYA first saw the blades and he could have helped Shirou to better understand his ability.
that would help explain how he started Unlimited Bladeworks. The smith would see hi ability to copy and store the weapons, which would eventually manifest as a reality marble. Then as Shiro wandered the world and saw more noble phantasms he would collect them. Gae Bolg, Rho ias, and the rest. There by filling his inner world slowly and developing his abilities and power. Then by clashing with his younger self he'd end up transfering it, mostly completed.
doesn't make sense imo as Rin summoned an Archer, and I don't think Gan Jiang qualifies as an Archer servant.
@@prehistoriccreator9600
many Archer-class servants are not classic Bow-users.
And old China had plenty of projectiles. Even swords used as such, like in various Wuxia-style stories
@@neogokiMK00 He may have made projectiles, but he's not known at all for making projectiles nor using them. He's known for his swords, specifically the creation of them and keeping the sword named after himself. He has no relation to projectiles and his legend is centered on him forging a sword, similar to Muramasa, who is summoned as a saber.
*Insert the archer joke*
The Ubw thing can be explained. I think in one of the routes or anime Archers says it took him years to a decade to creat and come up with the idea of UBW and mostly likely it's after the alaya encounter for him even to have the mana to attempt with practice something like UBW.
I remember reading in the Fate Stay Night in the original timeline that Archer Emiya was surprised to see Artoria for the first time before he nearly died before Rin used her spell commands to return Emiya Archer to safety.
Nasu is very subtle about how Archer has knowledge about a lot of things despite his memory being fragmented, which indicates he was a time traveler or alternate Dimension. Doing that type of writing intends to be very messy of time traveling, but one has to understand how time works.
Nasu is the reason why this story works. It is very insightful about this aspect in a way that makes this story. Fate Stay Night and Fate Grand Order complex and interesting.
Either of the archers from Apocrypha would work as well. Chiron responding to Rins trying to set things right and cause he would be able to give her guidance she needs. Atalanta cause of Rin being an orphan. Tho, I'm still wondering how Rin who is obsessed with getting things right could even forget to have a relic during the summoning. Thats one the most important things.
I heard that this is some sort of curse of Tohsaka family. They can make perfect plans, but there is always will be something that they missed or forgot. Something crucial.
I personally think it’s the first explanation. That it’s always Emiya, no matter the timeline. Each Emiya being from a slightly different timeline in an infinite loop, as a closed circle. Universe A Rin summons Emiya Z, Universe B Rin summons Shirou A, so on and so forth.
I mean in a way that makes a lot of sense…but it’s also kinda tame. I feel we can get crazy with Rin + Random Servant combos. So I opted for more What ifs takes.
@sleepylmguy9968 She kinda screwed herself over when she used her pendant as a catalyst though no matter how unintentional It was because the pendant was an integral part of Shirou's story and the one thing he always carries until his death
So literally just a paradox lol
@@mirzapramudya1580 not if you're a walking, talking paradox like EMIYA
Yeah I always assumed bootstrap, but it kinda doesn't make sense that emiya would encounter archer and still end up regretting his life and doesn't really mention that "he" told me this same thing. bootstraps usually kind of refer to themselves as a paradox. It could just be sloppy writing which is normal for time travel plots, but hmmmm yeah part of me is like might be a different servant since this is too messy for a bootstrap paradox. If it gets remade and archer is referring to how this all happened before and he didn't listen, it will just make shirou seem even more sped, but I think that would actually add to the story because there's currently plausible deniability.
Thank you! Ive heard people say summon crazy nonsensical stuff. Love the topic!
Watched until min 4:30, pause.
I BELIEVE that the most likely scenario for Rin to give Shirou the catalyst, is to help Saber recover mana after using her NP, fought berserker or Gilgamesh.
Since Emiya is know from a lack of personal connection with Saber. The mana transfer that pretty much cemented the saber route (IN MY OPINION)didn't happen, so Shirou would be able to recognize her struggle but wouldn't have solved it, and saved her from her wish.
Edit: *hits play again*
Edit2: Now I finished the video and I must say that I agreed with you all the way about Rin and Robin Hood paired up... until you mentioned Kid Gilgamesh of course, and yes I'm biased. Her father summoned the adult Gilgamesh, she summoned the youngest version of him. But! After putting serious though to who would make sense I stay with Kid Gil anyways.
The one thing any servant has going for, is that Rin will summon the best version of them, she is a great magus through and through. So if she summoned Robin Hood for example, this would be the best version of him, his parameter would be exceptional, compared to him summoned by someone else, and that would be so cool. But would that mean he could forge such a great route that someone like Shirou would be motivated and experienced enough to become a servant later on?
Now, I'm not saying it would be impossible but it would be more likely that it happened with Gilgamesh. And even when it comes to the bond between those 2 archers and Rin, I believe she could have better compatibility with Gilgamesh, knowledge wise, personality wise, potential... in general it just fits right.
To end this reddit post I will have to say that Tsiah is always bringing the good stuff, and it's nice to watch because he is respectful in whatever he says, this video was so nice to watch after I was done with work.
And next time give a warning man! You can't just drop a bomb like this you know!?
I like this kid gil idea.
It could work similar to prisma illya where he only has access to a small part of his treasures while his older version can use the bigger part. This could also be taken as a reason why he is not able to defeat berserker.
I always assumed as a kid that it was Gilgamesh she summoned.
Mainly because of how ubw is kinda like a counter to gate of babylon. We see from muramasa that their is more than one way to use ubw but the way we usually see it used via projectile. So id think that to a degree shirou awakening to ubw may have had GoB in mind or at least how to counter it.
Plus it would make that faker comment from gilgamesh ironic as hell
@@mritunjaytripathi-cl2epso gil raped saber in his route? Sadge
@@rotonek2887 no? wtf are u talking about? it just means that Archer wasnt able to save Artoria from her regrets and make her accept the past
@@rotonek2887 This is what happens when you read too many doujins
I remember looking into EMIYA's original timeline before, people combing over Archer's Dialogue from the Visual novel and using clues from Hollow Ataraxia to fill in some of the gaps. A couple of the things I recall include Gil DEFINITELY being an incarnated enemy to Shirou and Rin, with them having Cu actually taking on GIl and lasting for 3 days. During that time, Shriou would through means I'm not certain of unlock Unlimited Blade works, and much like UBW Route, win though instead of the Magic Crest, Rin gives him her Pendant which remain unused in that war to help Shirou fill the mana cost of his Marble enough to take down Gil. I also recall, since Shirou couldn't reach Artoria's heart in that route, he himself didn't change much and continued seeking to be a Hero of Justice, thus later becoming Emiya. I'm pretty sure Emiya lost contact with everyone as he pursued this over time, including Rin, even though he always carried that mana drained pendant with him, right up until the end. As for who Rin summoned, since she ended up working with Shirou and Cu later, pretty sure whoever it was got knocked out of the war pretty quickly, my money is around the time Herc rocked up around the beginning with Illiya. Beyond that, not much else I can recall from those posted investigations and speculations. But honestly this does all fit with presented dialogue and while I don't know if we'll ever know for sure, the entire situation seems well enough that I'm content waiting to see if more ever come out of Nasu. Hope this helps, and thanks for another great Video!
Origin timeline maybe?
> Was still a victim of the 4th war, saved by Kiritsugu with Avalon which lay dormant after.
> Dormant Avalon didn't activate the summoning circle so Saber wasn't summoned yet, keeping the number of masters at six.
> Killed by Lancer for witnessing the fight between him and Rin's original Archer.
> Out of pity for being the classmate of Shirou who died as an accidental victim, Rin send his body home and leaves her pendant on him.
> Avalon awakens and revives Shirou who in turn thought that he was saved by the owner of the pendant. (cliche)
> Tries to understand what is going on and why he was attacked.
> With Avalon awakened, Shirou accidentally activates the summoning circle becoming the seventh master with saber, officially starting the 5th war.
> Meets and allies with Rin who was in surprise of his return to life as a master.
> Meets his apparent sister, Illya who was then later killed by Gilgamesh in front of him, GoB hinted him of his UBW prototype.
> Fails to save Rin, confronts Gilgamesh and realizes his prototype UBW in desperation during the fight.
> wins the war as the only survivor, goes of the roat of becoming the 2nd magus killer while also hunting down corrupt people. Becoming both a savior of the poor and a wanted man in the eyes of those in power.
> the moment, to become a beast or counter guardian. Choosing the latter.
> regrets, decides to go back in time to truly let his young self die which would create a paradox. Ayala doesn't like that and tampers with the process secretly so he goes to an alternate timeline where he is destined to fail.
Conclusion: Ayala is the true final winner by getting the most versatile hunter and the ultimate chef.
But no, seriously... Nasuverse timeline discussions will only leave to headache, let's not cook about it.
I believe Nasu mentioned once that Shirou would naturally gain access to Unlimited Blade Works at 37 years old. Specifically I think it said it would take 20 years.
i really think the servant summoned by rin in the originnal timeline was emiya
yeah people are convinced that because shirou would become archer later he could not be summoned because "he had yet to exist"
but since archer is "out of time" there is no reason to think he could not be summoned during his own creation.
since as a counter guardian he always existed and will always exist.
basically the "archer timeline" would just be fate route but shirou makes another choice at some point
Personally I want to believe that Rin summons Osakabehime like in UBW manga gag chapters and the justification for Osakabehime being an archer is her swimsuit version 😂
Masters summon servants that are a reflection of their masters. Saber represents virtue and justice for shirou, rider represents pain, regret, and loneliness for Sakura, and Shirou represents selflessness and devotion for Rin. If you think about it, Rin is a tsundere version of Shirou (sacrifices herself to let Sakura live when she could have easily defeated her with zelritch, protects Shirou against berserker, protects Ilya against Sakura, etc). So I think Rin would always summon Shirou
so when are we going to talk about the fact Rin was standing in the summoning circle when summoning archer instead of outside it like everyone else depicted summoning a servant
Predestination - 2014 film can explain how emiya can be emiya even in the original timeline. The catch is simple: there are no original timelines and all timelines exist. If I have write a book covering the year 2020 and then next year I write a book covering 2019, which came first? By understanding that the written order exists outside the written content (aka out of time), you get your answer.
A popular theory i know of is that Kirei let Rin borrow Gilgamesh for the war, either just naturally or maybe as Emiya doesn't exist there's no servant connected to the amulet yet, so her summoning fails, she then goes to Kirei seeking help who then lends her Gilgamesh. This way Kirei and Gil can operate in the background like normal, leading Rin to believe she's in control when actually she's just a puppet for the two. And we know they did want her as the host for the grail. This way it all sorta lines up the story like normal
I read somewhere about these routes that the grail itself won't allow a paradox but will empower a counter guardian to be able to do their duty without questioning its will or themselves so my theory (and the one I heard)
OG Fate: EMIYA was sent back with no memories which is his weakest as it is skills only but not mindset and personality (This officially adds him to the throne of heroes)
UBW: EMIYA comes back with what he remembers intact but plays dumb for most of it with the idea of strengthening his resolve and abilities
HF: EMIYA is sent to deal with the paradox that is messing with the grail system as an extra servant was summoned (Gil has a physical body so the grail doesn't notice him) this is where the loop closes as Shirou doesn't become a counter guardian here
1:10-1:30 imo, this thought process is assuming the throne of heros just went "forward" in time to get him, then made a loop. Outside of time says to me that this is always how it has been. Rather than a "future", it being outside of time sees our past and future as simultaneous.
I could never agree with the idea that it was emiya who was summoned in the original EMIYA timeline because there would be an infinite loop where a whole bumch of EMIYA's would get created unless they all get integrated with the OG
I think the more likely thing to have happened was that Kirei would have been working with Gilgamesh while Rin would have summoned Lancer not knowing Kotomine's shenanigans behind her back.
She then ends up sending Lancer to the school (perhaps getting wind of Rider's movements behind the scenes due to Rin's watchful eye towards Sakura), and Lancer ends up stabbing Shirou. Rin finds out too late and she uses the pendant to revive Shirou.
This is how Shirou ends up becoming EMIYA in this timeline.
Shirou and Saber defeat Berserker but later Lancer ends up dying to Kirei and Gilgamesh. Shirou and Saber then realize the corruption thing about the grail, go to the temple like with the other timelines and end Gilgamesh. And then the Grail War for that generation ends. This is why EMIYA hints at Saber's wish being futile when they met in the main timeline. Because he knows the grail in this war is "corrupted".
Considering the battles if this were the case, Shirou would have been forced to rapidly grow as a magus much faster to adapt to the challenges (which in the timeline with EMIYA+Rin was made much easier because EMIYA manipulated some things). Without Archer to serve as the foil for Shirou's heroic aspirations, Shirou would be constantly on the forefront fighting despite Saber and Rin's qualms. Lancer isn't exactly going to stop Shirou, personality wise.
This makes for the reasoning we get that EMIYA/Shirou became wholly reliant on his projection magic early on until his maturity, causing him to have darker skin and white hair over time as well as having the bow as his main weapon with the swords being just part of his repertoire. Remember that Shirou only gets specific hints about his projection being closely related to Swords via his direct links and involvements with Archer. Archer seems to only got to fully developing those skills during his active time as a magus and a Guardian where he was already deeply involved with the Magus world.
This also leads into why he ends up becoming a Guardian as he doesn't "resolve" his internal issues about his borrowed ideals (which Shirou was able to do thanks to meeting Archer). He pretty much survives the grail war with sacrifices through Lancer and Saber, perhaps even including Sakura, and like some misguided PTSD or drive to seek atonement he literally "goes vigilante hero" until he becomes a Guardian. I think this is the most likely scenario on what happened in EMIYA's own timeline as Shirou, and why I think Rin's servant was probably Lancer, not Gilgamesh.
And then there's the other problem is how messed up and inconsistent Nasu and gang are especially when describing the original Timeline/Route where Shirou becomes Archer.
At first they said it was a timeline/route similar to Fate, but one where Shirou/Archer never fell in love with any of the Heroines, especially Artoria/Saber herself, thus also never saving her heart. But then they start saying and describing the route as being more similar to UBW and that Shirou/Archer is in a relationship with Rin?! Like what the Heck?! Didn't they just described that the timeline/route Shirou/Archer is from is a Route where he never falls in love with any of the three heroines?! Why are they suddenly changing it, and why are they saying it's Rin?! Like I get why Shirou/Archer isn't in love with Artoria/Saber but why is he suddenly in a Relationship with Rin?! And what about Sakura?! Last time I checked she too was in Shirou's life!
Honestly, your timeline makes way more sense, albeit I think Rin would get Lancer from Kirei after failing to summon any servant, as Cu/Lancer was already summoned by Bazett and she got killed by Kirei.
There's some point that can argue that the same master don't have to summon the same servant class so in you theory everything can be solved if you flip your POV that in the first timeline(that cause Emitya to ascend to heroic realm) Rin could summon other servant class too, as Rin said that all her preparation is perfect she could summon the saber class
so to sum it up :
in first timeline - Rin summon a saber class(no restrict but one thing that she'll win the war or Emiya survived) > Emiya involved > he near dead > Rin save him > Emiya got her Jewel > and everything goes to the end > Emiya become hero of justice and turn into Heroic spirit
in follow up timeline - Rin will always summon Archer now because at this point Emiya had her Jewel in possession then no matter how perfect of Rin summoning ritual she'll always end up summon Archer anyway due to the medium linkage
Case closed
I mean LZO, Mumei, Fate route and Archer himself are the Shirou's implied that did not have proximity "save file sharing" with Archer during the Grail War. All by their own merit and growth and skill (though FGO Muramasa bonded with a different LZO, Archer and Mumei made contracts for further power)
So UBW is always a feat Shirou can get some time in his adult years
Given that in the graphic novel the first image we see of shirou summoning Saber is from Archer Emiya's timeline (not the shirou we play as) and that he summons Saber in the exact same way as Shirou, in the same place, at the same time and with the exact same wound from Lancer in his chest then you have to assume that Rin's servant is Emiya.
If it were any other servant then the events of that night would have been different because of Archers attitude and that just generally changing a character out makes events play out differently. Setting that aside though, the image is basically the VN throwing up a big flag and saying that "this is where things change." and it makes sense since that moment on is where all of the three main routes diverge too.
What a fun thought experiment.
Few things tho. Under your hypothetical, Rin could have summoned a Saber servant instead. Absent a proper catalyst, a hero is designated by compatibility. And Saber was the last slot to be filled in the Fuyuki 5th Holy Grail War.
Secondly, not summoning Emiya because he doesn't exist may be enough of a divergence from the "trunk" of the world tree timeline to cause a Pruning Theoretical Phenomenon/Quantum Time-Lock, thereby eliminating that route from being the origin. But really that is also a catch-all for "the story has yet to have been written to exist".
Thirdly, it's certain Rin summoned Emiya in the first/primary instance of the Fuyuki 5th Holy Grail War. The Throne of Heroes resides with Akasha, which is the source of and has records of ALL possibilities of past, present and future. Until someone writes a canon story proving otherwise, that is how that possibility will ALWAYS play out.
If we try to stick as close as possible to the main timeline and info. Rin would as someone mentioned fail to summon any servant due to the various errors on her side ie a lack of a catalyst and improper timing due to all her clocks being off an hour. She more then likely wouldnt get command seals at least not yet anyways as a rando is choosen when no one else can summon. Kirei would probably kill that person or caster would and then take their servant. Tousaka would probably involve herself in the war anyway because its how she is and starts trying to figure out whats wrong with the school since shinji has started setting up the bounded field for rider. More than likely running into lancer who doesnt kill her as she lacks a servant but is interested none the less because of his inate like of Rin as in most routes. As they are talking it out shirou finishes up and walks out after cleaning the dojo and sees Lancer and rin. The usual death scene plays out, and rin revives shirou and then shirou summons Saber to save himself when he gets back home as usual. Rin gets her commands seals around this point as technically shirou died and so a new slot has opened for her. The fight with lancer and saber happens and rin shows up like usual except saber doesnt attack her cause she has no servant. Rin offers to help shirou and teach him stuff and most of the rest of the story plays out the same as the fate timeline except at somepoint. Shirou is forced to use all his command spells and rin makes a pact with saber giving us a shirou who doesnt have his circuits eaten by saber to make her stronger and a saber strong enough to take down gilgamesh at the end. Which works out storywise as if anyone else won that war the timeline would be screwed. As for who the archer that would be summon would be and who would be the master. It could very well be shinji if hes not already play riders faux master as even though hes a failure as a mage he could still be used as a master as was the guy from fate zero who summoned caster. The summoned servant would probably be weak though so a similar chain of events like in ubw could happen and he ends up with gilgamesh.
🤔 this was definitely not a question I really expected to have an answer to, and I'm really glad you didn't just give us an open ended cop out this gives a lot more to think about for that *original* timeline
Still Emiya.
The Throne of Heroes exists outside the confines of time.
Basically, the Throne of Heroes exists at the end of all time.
Everything that might have, will have or never did happen has merged there.
So Archer/Emiya was summoned in the original timeline too, even though he did not exist there yet (though he always did and always will)
The easiest way to think of it is that the Throne of Heroes exists after all creation has perished, and has access to every possible timeline, even those that never came to be.
A amalgamation of History and possibility.
Its impossible to fully comprehend watching it while inside the timeline, and it is capable of sending its heroes to any timeline, including those that don't technically exist.
The point at the end of time with access to any moment in any time.
I agree with the first UBW being after the war. Since the only things it requires are shirou insanity and Avalon changing his origin. There js this CE with him in front of the black grail that could be a hint.
What if rins important crystal was what was used for the original casting of unlimited blade works (ten years of rin stockpiling mana into it) but wasn't completely exhausted,
Because in all likelihood rin in a timeline without Archer emiya would end up focusing on teaching Shiro assuming that we follow the same path of Stay night (we need a servant of the same Calibur as Archer but a different identity and personality (so kid gil would work but also might divert things to much) I would have rin teach emiya magecraft and specifically realising that his projection is strange tracking it back to a reality marble and either the crystal was used to resurrect Shiro or if we assume someone like kid gil fought lancer it's an obvious W for rin so we end up in a timeline where Shiro never ends up dying to gae bolg which means the crystal is still around and as rin put it was a secret weapon and with it we get emiya first figuring out and casting unlimited blade works but ultimately because he was so focused on learning magecraft he was unable to save sabers heart and because his own manas not sufficient without the world's bonus he could only unleash unlimited blade works with an external battery supporting him(kid gill Vs Heracles would be S tier I can already guess)
You kind of answered your own question 2 minutes into the video. The whole point of the Throne of Heroes is that it lies outside of time. There cannot be a paradox because of that, ever, because it exists outside the domain of those rules. Something similar like this happened in Hollow Ataraxia as well.
If there is some original timeline for Archer Emiya, the anime and visual novel already state and show that Emiya makes a contract with the world (Alaya), which is his power source for a lot of his powers and Reality Marble. Think of it as Emiya Archer's cannon event (along with dying and being revived via pendant), regardless of what happens in the 5th HGW.
If you wanna hear about alternative servants Rin could have summoned, the only one that comes to mind was Lancer in Fate/Extra while the MC can summon archer instead, but that's about it.
1:10 The whole point of the throne exiting outside of time is that there is no such walls. The various wars do not happened in series. They happened in parallel, and can be stacked infinitely.
Yes, that doesn't make logical sense. But that's time BS for you. Note that I'm not saying that there was no original war without EMIYA, just that the logic doesn't properly apply here.
4:00 I don't see why the first fight of the war would have to be so different. As long as Shirou runs into it, Lancer kills him, and Rin saved him, leaving the pendant behind, he would have the catalyst.
I'm pretty sure that the reason why it was so prolific is to set it up as a Chekhov's Gun.
5:55 My personal per theory is that EMIYA!Shirou never realized UBW in his lifetime. He had the potential to do so, but that sort of thing is still incredibly rare for a human.
If memory serves me right. Emiya was given the original chant for UBW by the Counter-force when he formed a contract with it.
I have been wondering this for YEARS.
Kiniko Nasu was asked a question regarding which route was EMIYA archer's route and who was the servant which Rin summoned. Nasu only answered the first part saying that archer's route was similar to Fate route minus saving Saber's heart. He ignored the second part of the question regarding Rin's servant. Maybe he too didn't know and had not thought about it.
I always thought it would have had to be Gil because her father summoned him during the last war and it just makes the most sense considering who she is as a person.
Also, iirc from early fate series the servant, If there is no catalyst that would tie to a specific servant, it would try to summon the one that is the closest to the in terms of goals, personality, or the power of the master.
I get that the amount of servant that we have today is vastly different than the amount that had been conceptualized back then, but lore wise, wouldn't the canon ones still exist there to be summoned? And by canon, i mean the ones that you could say definitely could be summoned from hystory, like Arjuna, Atalante, Tristan, Tomoe , and so on.
You know from a Higher Dimensional beings perspective the future is occurring simultaneously along side the past & present. So even if it's the first Iteration, Servant Emiya would still be summoned.
The Throne of Heroes does exist outside time, so that is an option. However, I think it's unlikely to happen even though it's possible because there'd likely be less resistance in a different Servant being summoned.
@@BloodrealmXyeah but theirs a point were emiya had to come into existence the loop started from somewhere
A thing you might need to consider about Gil as potential is that Zero wasn't written by Nasu and Nasu is petty enough to go "That's not canon to FSN as I wrote it, just very similar"- which is why the Zero event in FGO was so bad. So it's possible Gil in whatever original timeline the Shiro who becomes Emiya is from didn't get corrupted during the climax of the previous war. Also keep in mind in Prototype the Archer was Proto Gil who was just villainous but wasn't corrupted by Grail Mud, and given that in UBW Gil's motivations are very similar to his Proto motivation of wanting to destroy Humanity for how weak it became (which in proto he uses his Noble Phantasm to summon the ancient Flood) , it could work out fine if Rin summoned Gil but lost control to Kirei somehow, or traded him for Cu Chullain since Proto Cu's Master is basically the Beta for Rin in many ways.
There is no paradox if the time is circle or a loop in itself. In the end of time there is a start of time and throne of heroes in the centre so there is no wall to hit
Yeah, that was a weird way to put it. The video even starts saying that the throne is outside time, and its always there. EMIYA is summoned from the future anyway, the throne just doesn't care. Even after saying all that, they then go and say there has to be a wall. There's no wall, the throne doesn't play by our rules. This is a thought experiment anyway, so there was no need to mention that.
Schrödinger's Servant.
This was a fun what if discussion, but I think I gotta disagree with the premise. The Throne being outside of space-time means there doesn't have to be an origin. As long as there are parallel timelines in the Typemoon franchise, it works. For there to be an origin, the other timelines would have to have not existed yet, and I'm not sure there was ever a point in the franchise where that's been the case.
I think there is still a possibility where Gilgamesh ends up as Rins servant without having to summoned. Rin fails to summon anyone, but ends up getting gifted Gil by Kirei because he needs her in the war for his plan. This could also explain why Emiya is confident that Shiro can take out Gil.
honestly because of the paradox it made me wonder if 'future servants' had been summoned before or after? like could theoretically 2b get summoned to a grail war?
the paradox i actually had wasn't 'who was rin's servant'. the one i was trying to wrap my head around was where did emiya originally see kanshou and bakuya so they would be his primary weapons. there'd have to be a point where emiya to become emiya has to run across them.. but how the paradox seems to work is he's getting them from himself with never having seen them at all. so theyre just popping out of nothingness.
Maybe only in Fate Go. I don't think 2B can be summoned since she could be considered a made up character. It might possible to summon someone like 2B though. Only Nasu would have the actual answer to that.
@@earendurvoneinzbern7585 copyrights aside, i'd assume she'd be considered a hero of her future... or maybe not and she could just be considered a regular soldier. it really depends how everyone considered her as it's the belief of the collective that is used to summon them.
@@feuryie I'm thinking, she would be, a Ruler, Saber, or, Lancer.
@@earendurvoneinzbern7585 yeah, probably be most likely for her
Here's what I'm thinking:
There's no clear way to explain this, that's why it's left as a paradox. But anyways, I'll try to make sense of it.
In Shirou Archer's HGW, it's entirely possible that Rin still summons him as the Heroic Spirit Emiya with the same jewel pendant as the catalyst.
Since the Throne of Heroes exists in a metaphysical plane, meaning it transcends time itself, Heroic Spirits can be summoned from any era, be it past or future.
For simplicity sake, let's call the hypothetical Archer from Shirou-cuming-Archer's timeline T1 Archer (Timeline 1 Archer)
And T2 Archer (Timeline 2 Archer) is the Archer we see in stay night (in all the routes)
T1 is summoned by T2 Rin in T2 Shirou's timeline. We don't know the exact circumstances of what path T2 Shirou went through to become Archer, but what we do know is that he eventually becomes Archer, forging a pact with the World to become a guardian and all that.
What we can can deduce here is that T1 Archer doesn't follow the same path as T2 Shirou, vice versa.
However, he will still make that decision to become a guardian, and will go on to become a Heroic Spirit after death.
With that settled, there's two theories I've come up with:
(1) No Archer, as in the Heroic Spirit Emiya, is the same "Archer".
Each Archer that is summoned is a different Archer from the one we know in stay night.
You might think this breaks the logic of how Servant summoning in Fate works, but here me out.
Just think about it for a second. This is the Nasuverse where an infinite number of timelines all exist simultaneously.
Evidence that can substantiate this claim are in the form of the numerous Ends (Good, Bad, Normal, True) in Fate/stay night, Tsukihime, and so on.
Since we know these alternate timelines exist, multiple HGWs might be occuring in them.
Therefore, the Archer we see in stay night, is from one of these infinite timelines, that being Timeline 2 which I gave as an example.
So T1 Archer who was summoned in T2's HGW didn't follow the same path T2 will follow, but they will all arrive at the same fate; becoming a guardian.
T2, T3, T4, T5, T6... etc. All are Heroic Spirit Emiya's who follow a different path in their respective lives, but arrive the same conclusion:
They will become a guardian.
Another interesting part about this theory is that there's also many timelines where Shirou doesn't become Archer, aside the ones we already know of.
That being stay night, where he doesn't become Archer after any of the three routes,
Prillya in Illya's universe where he's living life as a normal teenage boy,
If you count other stuff like Carnival Phantasm, Today's Menu for Emiya Family, they are part as well.
As everything is operating in an alternate universe, the possibilities are endless.
T2 Archer just happened to be summoned out of the many other Archers from different timelines into Shirou's timeline
"Shirou" in this case having three versions (Fate, UBW and HF).
So it doesn't matter if it's T2 Archer, T3 or 4. What matters is a different version of Archer is being summoned everytime, each one walking a different path, but arrived at the same fate.
It seems crazy, but might just be true.
(2) A less convoluted theory is that there are no different Archers.
Archer is the same everywhere, and there is only one Archer being summoned into every timeline, as per being a Heroic Spirit exempt from the bounds of time.
So basically Fate route Archer = UBW Archer = HF Archer, all being summoned to different points in time.
Why I feel this theory doesn't work is due to the fact that multiple timelines _do_ exist in the Nasuverse, so multiple HGWs might happening in each of them.
All this goes back to the point that the Archer Rin summoned in T2 is still Emiya.
my interpritation of the original UBW reality marble is that it's like any other Noble Phantasm, just an interpritation of what made Shiro, Shiro, just in post mortem. Like how some servants technically never could have dont their NP's in life, they can do it as a Servant and human shiro just copied it? not sure if this makes sesnse..... but it's fate, how much does anything make sense?
I'm still wondering how FSN would have played out if Shirou didn't have a catalyst and pull a Saber via compatibility instead:
Spartacus, Siegfried, Jeanne d'Arc (yes, the 1st and 3rd of these can Saber Class without issue)
My take is that the series is called "Fate" is because that's what the story is fundamentally about Fate, as both as a noun and a verb. Nasu could have picked a Japanese word for the name, but he chose not to. Fate Noun def. "the development of events beyond a person's control, regarded as determined by a supernatural power." Which perfectly describes the role of the Servants in the series, every single one of them. Fate Verb def. "be destined to happen, turn out, or act in a particular way." and that definition specifically applies to Shiro. He is destined to try and become a Hero in every single iteration of the story.
Since Archer as a Servant exists outside of time, the rules of cause and effect don't necessarily apply to him. What we know for sure is that whatever the original Shiro experienced was very similar to the Fate Route. While he did not get the true ending of the Fate Route except he says he failed to get Saber's affections: However in Realta Nua last episode there is every indication that saber indeed loves Shirou, which means that when Archer says otherwise UBW he may be an unreliable narrator in that instance having forgotten Saber's feelings after a vast stretch of time. Since that's the case, than it stands to reason that Archer's route may in fact have been the fate route itself. The Fate route really wouldn't be possible without Archer, or would have gone very differently if Archer wasn't there or if there was a different archer there.
There really isn't a problem with Rin summoning EMIYA even in his timeline. While it might seem paradoixcally impossible and depriving that Shirou of free will, it really doesn't. EMIYA made his choice whether he had full knowledge of what he was getting into or not, and furthermore you could say it was his Fate that he was to become EMIYA. Realistically I don't even think their was an "original" route per say because it is always 2004, even if it "feels" like its a later route.
If EMIYA's route was like the Fate route except that he couldn't connect properly with Saber this makes sense, as this is the one route we see where Shirou does not come to undertand Archer's identity and it seems that Rin didn't as well. Perhaps later in EMIYA's life he did realize what happened but it would not have mattered to him because he thought being a Counter Guardian/Heroic Spirit was going to be fulfilling.
As for UBW, Nasu said in an interview (and yes Nasu says a lot of things and forgets about them) that it would take Shirou about 20 years to develop UBW) so EMIYA had to die after being around 37 after making his contract in his late 20's.
Also if there were to be another Archer in EMIYA's route, people often bring up Ajax (even though I don't know if he has lore as an Archer or ranged specialist) because of Rho Aias and EMIYA having to have seen it in his route. Hiwever, since several Noble Phantasms still exist in modern day that might account for it. It could have also been from other Counter Guardian assignments through time but it might not work like that. It could also be as simple as Gil deploying it as a defense in his route.
People also need to remember that more than one EMIYA exists. Mumei and EMIYA are two separate existences that are the same, like multiple Arturias or Shirou in each route. It literally does not need any headloops to figure that EMIYA(2) was summoned in EMIYA(1)'s timeline
Iirc Nasu said Emiya started to be a guardian around his 27 years.
@@darknessknows1235 And then there's the other problem is how messed up and inconsistent Nasu and gang are especially when describing the original Timeline/Route where Shirou becomes Archer.
At first they said it was a timeline/route similar to Fate, but one where Shirou/Archer never fell in love with any of the Heroines, especially Artoria/Saber herself, thus also never saving her heart. But then they start saying and describing the route as being more similar to UBW and that Shirou/Archer is in a relationship with Rin?! Like what the Heck?! Didn't they just described that the timeline/route Shirou/Archer is from is a Route where he never falls in love with any of the three heroines?! Why are they suddenly changing it, and why are they saying it's Rin?! Like I get why Shirou/Archer isn't in love with Artoria/Saber but why is he suddenly in a Relationship with Rin?! And what about Sakura?! Last time I checked she too was in Shirou's life!
@@shawnwarrynn8609 there is no contradiction. Archer was always a ladies man, the difference between him and Shirou is that Archer's heart wasn't the one that melted in the same way Shirou does
Dunno if its been mentioned yet, but keeping in mind that Shirou was the last in the 5th war to receive a servant and that Rin had her heart set on getting a Saber, without Emiya's interference she likely would have gotten one. Which Saber I can't really say, but likely not Arturia, since she almost certainly ended up dead in that timeline along with pretty much everyone else who could have acted as Emiya's suppport structure.
In this situation, Shirou would have been left receiving the Archer class, in which case your arguments for him receiving Arash would make a lot of sense, and would fit well as inspiration for Emiya's self destructive hero complex we know of from the lore.
Not really because EMIYA remarks that he fought with Artoria and gives a flashback during UBW in their first meeting. Personally, I think Rin either got EMIYA another version of him or got Gilgamesh.
It's a misconception that there must be a "first" timeline. That is not how a paradox works. In fact, if there was a "first" timeline, there wouldn't be a paradox. The timelines exist simultaneously in "parallel" with each other AND have ALWAYS existed. Now, they aren't really parallel, because parallel lines don't touch, but some of these timelines do cross and the periods where they intertwine is where the paradox is manifested and Shiro and Archer both exist simultaneously. That DOES NOT mean that other additional parallel timelines don't also exist. These are the other paths. Those are more akin to parallel timelines. But, they are all real, and they all exist and always have existed. It's called FATE for a reason, after all. Even before there was a Shiro, these timelines already existed and he was fated to walk them all.
Try to picture this - if you take 1 thick piece of rope made up of smaller pieces of rope twisted together. You can unfurl that 1 rope into like 5 parallel smaller pieces of rope, but they are all still part of the big rope. Take two of those parallel smaller ropes and you can knot them together in the middle, like a square knot if you want to look up a picture. In that knot, that rope goes backwards, loops goes forward again, then exits the knot and becomes just a smaller rope again. Now, if you take the ends of all those smaller ropes and twist them back together, you get the same bigger rope again. You have 1 continuous piece of rope but it splits in the middle, some parts knotted together, some not, then they all combine to the big rope again on the other side. That is the life(s) of Shiro Emiya. The small piece of time with Archer and Shiro together are those small knots, the parts where all the timelines are the same is when you have the single big rope. He exists on all of them simultaneously and they are paths his life takes. Now, even this is overly simplistic and not a true representation of all his timelines, but it is just a way to picture it.
If anyone is familiar with the Elder Scrolls games, this is akin to a "Dragon Break" where multiple timelines happen, all at the same time, then combine to form a single timeline at the end. While they are all different and different things happen, they are all still TRUE. There is no "true" timeline, they are all true timelines and they all always happen.
She just summoned Emiya. That's how timelines and infnities generally tend to work in fiction. It's an endless loop. There is not going back 10 times, there is only going back infinite times, and with infinity, you will never hit a wall.
It's Emiyas all the way down!
That's a cheap cop out.
my personal theory is that in EMIYA's timeline, Rin didn't mess up the timing of the summoning and did get a saber, but it was Gan Jiang and Mo Ye, the sword smith couple that MADE Kanshou and Bakuya which would become his signature weapons and would explain why he favors them so much because he probably got to see them in action, and Shirou says in the UBW route that he thought they were beautiful.
My theory is that she always summoned a servant from the future, but that future had yet to be determined, leaving Archer as an uncertain potential that could have been a number of people, until she used her contingency plan crystal to heal Shirou from a mortal wound. And even then, Archer's history was still in flux leading to the different routes. However, it is very likely that canon has already shot down my idea.
Besides, I reject the idea of 'original timeline' and 'altered timeline' as the absolute nonsense that physicists know it to be. If someone travels to 2003 in a time machine, then they always existed in 2003. If they save their younger self from death in 2003, that is not a paradox, that is a consistent chain of events. Of course that runs contrary to much of fiction, but that is just fiction, sometimes fiction doesn't turn out as plausible as it is first imagined.
Ahh yes the unseen timeline its left me up at night though there is a interesting fan theroy that emiya is actually from the erased timeline that we know nothing about after all gill dose not seem to have unlimited blade works or any np spawned from it why i say that is the fact emyia and shirou are conters to gill if he had ubw he would understand its laws and rules and be able to predict and crush the two but both seem to be blind spots for him witch implies that emiya has to be from a diligence that gill can not access.
Since Nameless is a concept there could be a Nameless before Emiya. Therefor, Rin probably summon the original Nameless before Emiya took the mantle?
I wish we got the Charlemagne we were supposed to get in fate extella, you know the one that was supposed to be the body of saber with the powers of ruler
I think Rin getting Chiron would be cool. He is a bit like Rin's idealized vision of Tokiomi and Fiore who summoned him in Apocrypha also has a somewhat similar conflict with struggeling to become a perfect, coldhearted mage. He is also strong enough to be a serious player in the HGW but not broken like Gilgamesh. Maybe we would see Rin attaching gems to his arrows as a combo or cool shit like that.
Considering how much Type/Moon stuff is out of there it's kind of weird that we have not gotten a spin-off of this timeline which is heavily hinted at. After H/A and 0 it seems like one of the next intuitive steps.
This convo hurt my brain, but it's the kind of discussion I like to kick around now and then. I literally never thought of this before tho lol. Fate is cool but it really fucking hurts my brain. Thanks for the vid!
Arash is an interesting thought actually…
That would potentially mean that Arash sacrificed himself to save Rin, Saber and that timeline’s Shirou by using Stella on Berserker.
Given that thing’s nature, I’m won’t be surprised if it could obliterate all 12 Lives with a single shot
Bit cracked but, what if due to her being a vessel for her in FGO what if she herself served as a catalyst for Ishtar ?
Here's the thing though Tsiah, while normally you have a progression of time (ie past>present>future) when your dealing with time travel that doesn't matter because the events are now separate, it breaks the standard rules of the universe because it shouldn't naturally happen
So imagine you have the standard fate time line until right before stay night happens, then the timeline branches into all the possible routes even one's we didn't see
One timeline is big circle for emiya where he lives, dies, goes to the throne of heroes where he exists outside of time then goes straight back to the beginning where all the routes split, from there the timelines continue as normal
Emiya isn't a natural part of the universe so their isn't a proper 'cause' for his 'effect', his original universe would be one massive time loop and any universe where it isn't one to one would be a alternate completely disconnecting him from any chance of fixing his situation
Also personally I headcanon Alaya is able to manipulate what Emiya remembers when he's summoned so he's unable to break free since she wouldn't want to lose such a useful weapon
I have a theory. Rin failed to summon a servant and still gained a command seal. The thing is, the grail already knew Shirou becomes Archer at some point. So Rin gets Shirou and not Archer, but since he is already in the human world, he remians in place. Rin finds out about Shirou and stays the night when he gets attacked by Lancer, then gets rescued by Rin and then all plays out as usual, more or less like a mix between the FATE and the UBW routes and the Shirou becomes EMIYA.
I always figured Original Archer Shirou EMIYA obtained his reality marble when he made his deal with the counter force.
Been thinking about this for a while. A minor though exersize. If Shirou Emiya was a Master during the Fate/Extra series as a participant of the Moon Cell Holy Grail War, what Servants would he be the most viable to summon? Here are my current thoughts on the 4 Servants he'd be most likely to summon in the Moon Cell Holy Grail War.
Artoria Pendragon (Saber) Speaks for itself. Artoria and Shirou are in many ways two sides of the same coin when it comes to their sense of duty to those that they surround themselves in their lives. Thus how and why they were able to click so well in comparison to when she was Kuritsugu's Servant.
Arash (Archer) They'd click well personality-wise, and I could see Arash developing a mentor-like roll to Shirou in many ways too. Their partnership as Master and Servant would probably be one of the more laid-back vibes with how they'd treat one another.
Enkidu (Lancer) Out of all the Lancer-Class Servants, I could see Enkidu and Shirou getting along in spite of the irony that would come from this dynamic, given how close Enkidu and Gilgamesh were as friends in their past lives. Much like with Artoria in the Fate Route, Shirou would be adiment in not treating Enkidu like a tool as they would claim themselves to be.
Counter Guardian Emiya (Assassin) Would probably the most conflicting dynamic as Master and Servant. On one hand Shirou would know who he is just by looking at him. But from what I understand, Counter Guardian Kuritsugu originates from a timeline where he never met Shirou like he did during the aftermath of the 4th Holy Grail War. Thus their bond as Master and Servant would be heavily conflicted given how Shirou will get a front-row seat at the kind of person Kuritsugu was like before he found him as a child.
I like how you dive into the emiya video but I believe the event still happens cause Archer is gives tohsaka the jewel in unlimited blades works which then later emiya find the same jewel in tohsaka house that how everybody figure out who Archer is. So in theory it can be that emiya get stabbed then Rin save him with jewel that emiya keep which it's later down the line when it can be used as a catalyst to summon servant emiya so the better question is how did everything go in the version during when Shiro get the catalyst to be summoned as servant emiya?
Who? The answer is simple, Emiya, she summons Emiya, later revives Shirou, he keeps the pendant until the end of his life and he is inscribed in the Throne of Heroes that is outside space and time, the moment he is inscribed time no longer maters so she technically summons Emiya at a time that he did not existed but since the ToH exists outside space and time, Emiya has always and will always exist until the ToH ceases to be. Doesn't make sense? That's what outside time and space means, our rules don't apply to that so all of our world's logic goes out of the window, even if the timeline where the Emiya that was originally inscribed in the ToH is somehow deleted, he will continue to exist, not because of other versions of himself but because he's already in the ToH even if he technically never existed, just like the Lostbelt servants that had their timelines pruned, but were inscribed in the ToH so they are summonable even though they never existed because their timeline was deleted.
I’m so glad that my mini side-bar about shirous reality marble got into a vid 😂😂 much love my brotha
salute fam, had a good time shooting the breeze with you
@@TsiahIV Anytime my man’s live to shoot shit bout fate 🤘🏾🔥
@@TsiahIV Another problem is how messed up and inconsistent Nasu and gang are especially when describing the original Timeline/Route where Shirou becomes Archer.
At first they said it was a timeline/route similar to Fate, but one where Shirou/Archer never fell in love with any of the Heroines, especially Artoria/Saber herself, thus also never saving her heart. But then they start saying and describing the route as being more similar to UBW and that Shirou/Archer is in a relationship with Rin?! Like what the Heck?! Didn't they just described that the timeline/route Shirou/Archer is from is a Route where he never falls in love with any of the three heroines?! Why are they suddenly changing it, and why are they saying it's Rin?! Like I get why he isn't in love with Artoria/Saber but why is he suddenly in a Relationship with Rin?! What about Sakura?! Last time I checked she too was in Shirou's life!
Archer is just an emiya and the archer that was around when he was emiya was probably a different emiya. What i am guessing is the throne of heroes probably just has multiple copies of heroes but only from the timeline it liked
Simple answer, Rin summons Shirou everytime. Why? How? Rin's botched summoning broke the fabric of reality and is the very root of the paradox and the core reason why the stories are quintessentially a infinite loop. Basically very first time, the very first loop she summoned the future Shirou that WAS NOT supposed to exist in this timeline. The focus on Shirou is irrelevant for his very nature is to become a hero of justice and this will happen regardless of Archer's influence or not. Actually that would be an interesting thing to see, a version of Archer who wasn't influenced by his future self. Oh! another interesting concept, all these stories are told from Rin's perspective as the person who is effectively the Phil Connors of this paradox trapped for all eternity.
One explanation / theory I saw was that Rin actually failed in summoning a servant so she went to kirie who somehow loaned her Gilgamesh or Cu I forget which but don't know if a situation like that even makes sense for whatever motives kirie might have
Like you said, Emiya being both a Heroic Spirit in the Holy Grail war and being a normal person at the same time is a paradox.
The paradox is cyclical. There is no version of the Holy Grail war where Emiya wasn't the archer summoned by Rin because Emiya exists.
It's not a situation of "putting the cart before the horse". It doesn't matter that Emiya doesn't become a Heroic Spirit until after the events of FSN. There is no beginning or end to the loop, it just exists because it will exist and always has existed. Trying to identify an "origin" to the paradox comes about because humans understand time in a linear fashion. The Paradox is an example of something that literally causes itself, or time flowing in a circle instead of in a line.
I'm interested in what servants different masters might have summoned in each class without the use of a catalyst
Like Gigguk said in his video about Lore fate: Dont think about it, or it's Akasha.
Imagine this, and laugh all you want for how ridiculous this sounds 😂. There could be a timeline when Shirou was already dating Rin before the start of the 5th holy grail war. Shirou was given the pendant as a gift from Rin. When the time comes, his servant will be Archer.
(Oh wait, but Rin wouldn't participate, which would be a problem because she's a Tohsaka; a descendant of a holy grail war founder, but then we would have to find a replacement, which could probably be Caster's original master... But then Saber wouldn't be summoned so... Maybe Shirou summons both...? Bahhhh this is confusing I need Nasu himself to answer this question 😅...)
If the Throne of Heroes truly exists outside of Space-Time then Emiya was predestined to become a heroic spirit as the Throne of Heroes would logically could only exist either within the mind of omniscient and omnipotent God, therefore the Heroic Spirit Emiya is the Archetype of Emiya rathar that than a formerly human Emiya with true freewill. But as I don't think the Throne of Heroes is outside of time but merely beyond the laws of causality, the Heroic Spirit Emiya must therefore be the very same Emiya who fought the Heroic Spirit Emiya, not a different version of Emiya.
I like the idea that UBW is a np made by a paradox. Emiya teached Shirou and vice versa. But its also fun thinking about that og timeline where theres no Emiya spirit yet.
Some guys said above that Nasu stated Shirou would be able to manifest his first UBW at 37 years old, 20 years into the future, when his mana is at peak condition, so maybe EMIYA Archer died around that age.
UBW Shirou using Rin's mana to use his UBW against Gil at 17, I like to think this Shirou would be the strongest across all timeline.
@@Kuhekin strongest is subjective but i get what you mean. UBW is pretty op. Its atleast as strong as Iskandar's reality marble and Iskandar is a conqueror all his life.
@@kingcobra2858 in a way UBW also can be counted as army of some sort, since all weapons are under command of Shirou
Good video, I also thought she would summon someone like Robin hood cause that would be ironic
the funny thing about time is sometimes depending on how you see it time can just be its own loop like emiya in ubw did say he lost a lot of his memories which could suggest what he felt the way he did in the story so in archer emiya effert to stop himself it could also be a part of his motivation to do it
I remember back then when I was planning to write a fan fiction about original timeline where rin summoned nameless. I totally forgot about it later on lol but I am writing a visual game instead and currently have 50k words(planning to at least 200k+ words and have 3 part story, prequel, original and sequel).
Nameless sacrifice himself to save shirou from being killed by gilgamesh Enuma Elish by countering it with rho aias. Nameless teach shirou how to become a magus and learn how to project better to the point he can project caliburn and rho aias. Final battle, Artoria and shirou work together to fight gilgamesh with the final clash Shirou use caliburn and artoria use excalibur to counter gil enuma elish meanwhile rin fight kirei(I have no idea how tf she supposed to defeat him and she discover that he kill his father using that dagger). I remember making a sketch of this comic but did not finish unfortunately. I cook up the idea in less than 5 minute so dont expect it to be any good.
I definitely don't know enough about Fate Lore to properly dissect this question the way I would usually like to, but listening to the video and reading through some of the comments, here are my two cents.
The concept of Rin's initial summoning failing altogether and then having Kirei give her Gilgamesh to compensate seems... plausible, but also feels like the more boring answer to this question.
If Rin herself serves as the catalyst for her summoning and the Grail would choose her servant based on personality, two people who immediately come to my mind are either Oda Nobunaga - who I believe shares a strong sense of competitiveness and self-confidence with Rin. OR Atlanta, as both can be described as "Stubborn, but ultimately good-natured." In this I would personally lean towards Atlanta being the best choice for the narrative, though I couldn't say much on what the full shape of that narrative would be in this hypothetical 'Original Timeline'.
Shirou already knows how to us a bow (archery club) so that has to count for something.
She still summons him in the original fate series which is why i don't understand why some people try to act like that version doesn't exist when its that version of Emiya we see as Acher in UBW at some point he becomes more an more jaded
If I were to throw something interesting into this pot, what about Chiron being someone that would have been summoned by Rin? Even though rin would’ve trained Shirou in magecraft, someone had to have trained him in the art of combat, both ranged and hand to hand. Although he would eventually be able to do that being a counter guardian, wouldn’t it be interesting if it was someone who trained the likes of Achilles? Plus Chiron has been used as a mentor in other works as well
I'd assume Osakabehime is the one she summons if she doesn't use the pendant as a focus, a gag panel in the manga shows her summoning her.
I don't really think of the time as a flowing stream, and more like all events are happening all at once and bent in a way that makes an impossible scenario possible within it's own branch in a timeline... Or to put it simply, the outcome is decided first. A... Reversal of cause and effect. Similar to how a book is written.
I believe that each Emiya Archer increases in strength for each time loop. So, arguing that the Fate route Archer is the weakest, he would only be the first or second Emiya. So what if Shiro saw Gilgamesh's Gate in action, but was incapacitated in some way. Like his insufficient mana could have run out, and Arturia fizzled out. Since he's so adamant about action, he probably got tied up or something by Rin. For the jewel that acts as a catalyst, he'd have to have close ties with Rin. So she probably became a mentor of sorts. So, surprisingly, I think the original timeline probably looked a lot more like Blade Works route than we'd anticipate.
There is no time loop. After Shriou becomes EMIYA he gets summoned in the f/sn timlines, but he doesn't have memories of the different routes. From his pov he only gets summoned as Archer in one version of the 5th HGW. None of the Shirou that we see in the VN ends up as EMIYA
i figured it was just some weird time loop/paradox and was still just EMIYA since the fate verse is just kinda weird like that
Man, I'm confused when you mentioned this type of discussion.