Preamps aren't much more than a pot and switch so why are they so expensive? If you want to learn more, grab a copy of Paul's new book, The Audiophile's Guide. www.amazon.com...
Paul and Nelson Pass are my favorite Audio Designers. They seem to share the same Philosophy of "doing no harm", and just employing whatever methods/circuitry are best, relative to the Technology available at the time to NOT stand in the way of the Music.
Please, can someone give this man an award? I never heard talk and explain someone about audio as that much interesting stories. Will use this channel to learn but also fall sleep (: Congratulations
@I was with your mother I'm not talking about cables but about preamps. If you can't hear a difference between a cheap preamp and a NEVE or an AVALON then you must have some hearing damage. It's also pretty easy to see the difference visually if you pull up a frequency analyzer. Stop smoking crack kid.
@I was with your mother Then tell me: Why can I hear a BIG difference in fully blind-test between amps and pre-amps? In some few cases I can also hear differences in speaker cables if it is on a good system. Just because YOU can't hear differences does not mean everyone is alike. Hearing is as variated as there are people.. So to say it's a scam when millions of people hear differences is just a HUGE fail dude ;) It's just as dumb as saying "all cars are exactly the same car"...
@I was with your mother Not about what YOU say.. Because you have no clue🤣 And there are tons of evidence that disagrees with you. Actually I can't find a single evidence that does agree with you. It has ALWAYS been proven that there is a difference.. Both by messuring and blind test listening. So just stop trolling. You sound like a twat that claims something just because you have no knowlage.
Such an excellent explanation! I now understand why my integrated amp sounds so wimpy on the low end at low volume, but much better as I increase the volume.
Paul has an immense skill in explaining very complex issues related to sound production and bringing it to a level that most can understand. Being an audiophile of many years these RUclips clips has definately futher my interest and understanding. Thanks!!
Tall you are a wealth of knowledge about everything high-end audio I could sit and listen to you speak countless hours in a row I'm glad you have a RUclips channel
Good morning Paul, I've been in cable TV industry for about 30 years. started off as a cable TV installer then service tech then maintenance tech (a maintenance tech is the guy in the bucket truck that works on the whole neighborhood if you will). Then I got into management but I tell you that to say, working on those amplifiers to feed the neighborhoods for cable signal and all the things we have to do to make sure you get gigabytes speed. all the circuitry involved in those amplifiers turning fiber light into RF signal. The price of a BHK preamplifier is hanging on a lot of pole in your city. While I was in management I had to order inventory so I know how much those amplifiers on those poles cost so I understand to engineer something that's great as a BHK its going to cost a lot of money. And take it from the cable guy, "cables matter everyone". just the temperature of a cable will determined the attenuation of our signal, certain size cable determine how much signal I'm going to get on my output, we have to oscillate and shield our cable in order for you guys not to experience interference so you can get that gigabyte speed you want on your internet. And the hardest part of our job is to make sure we have a -50 dB noise floor throughout the whole infrastructure of our network. Cable matters more than you think ok, I'm rambling again. By the way I'm watching too many of your videos because I called my wife Terry twice at the dinner table. Lol have a great day
Do you think it makes sense to take experience with 1GHz-bandwidth signals traveling hundreds of feet through cable, and imply that 20KHz signals traveling 6-20 feet have similar issues? That's rather like insisting that a paper airplane thrown from the top of a skyscraper needs heat shielding like the space shuttle has for its descent from orbit.
The biggest part of the cable bill was on Easter Sunday I went outside to see the cable guy finally cleaning up a wired mess that was out at the bottom of the pole for 3 years. Really HOLIDAY PAY is when you people finally do this. Then he cut the wrong wire of course and had to run a new line to my apartment and schedule for the line to be buried and well, I dont have cable anymore. I also had a problem when the oven kicked on my stereo would hummm. I learned about the ground loop eliminator of course this cable company that rhymes with COMCAST had no flippin idea what that was.
Yes, I found the same thing 30 years ago. The BK system of volume control is the best way to go, second is resistor based . The Bryston is a fine preamp.
Impedance is so important. So many sound "engineers" nowadays don't know their electronics. Many things is made simple but things go down hill when you start assuming everything goes. Worse when those advices are passed on in the forums... ☺️
Very good answer from the kindest man in Audio IMO. Mark Levinson ML-7 pre-amplifier did obtain this balance between straight wire with pot (very expensive Spectrol Series 100 wirewound and later very expensive Penny +Giles RF15 plastic conductive) and bufferstage. One of the best (old) pre-amps ever built and expensive also ($ 4,000.00 in 1981).
A good phono stage is worth its weight in gold and doesn't have to break the bank. I use a NAD PP2e which retails for about £100 and it was a real game-changer for my TT. My Sony LX-300USB is at the lower end of the TT market but I wanted to persist with it because I prefer an automatic TT to manual. A separate phono stage and an elliptical stylus turned the weak, distortion-filled sound into punchy bass and detailed sound. If the separate phono stage hadn't worked out, I would have given up on this TT and gone for something a bit more upmarket but that little box makes a bigger difference than most people realise.
Paul, You are the best bro. I will get your PS audio direct stream. Love the way you represent things. Love you bro. Much love and success to you Paul.
I love these vids that seem like a silly question, but aren't and Paul can pull from the history he has to answer with technical information that matters. Thanks!
I have very fond memories of my PS Audio 4.6 preamp from 1989..... It had passive and active modes, and what Paul describes is exactly what I experienced. Passive was super transparent, but lacking some oomph. Kicking in the gain gave it life and dynamics, at the loss of some transparency. Sadly it had some reliability issues, noisy switches, and also was not remote control. I switched to an Adcom preamp. I liked the Adcom fine, but it was never as sweet sounding as the PS.
I've got a 4.6 as my main preamp at the moment. Love that thing, no reliability issues so far. Definitely understand the need to swap though I don't mind the lack of a remote.
The last time I watched a video like this, I was off scouring the far reaches of the web, all in search for anything I could find about making your own voltage regulators. I was interested in a regulator that I could really drain the current from, since commercially available regulators max out at about one Ampere. I find the man who found the same rabbit hole before me and did the real digging. His name is Walt Jung and he did more than build a discrete regulator. He ran multiple regulators of differing topographies through whatever paces he could and wrote some good papers and probably even won an honorary degree or three, dubbing him the Grand Poo-Bah of discreet voltage regulators. I still have yet to try out any of his regulators, having discovered the linear power supplies of Condor, International, and Power One. Which all three seem to be the same power supplies made in Oxnard and yet they go by three different names. So now I’m gonna be off searching probably about the potential of wiring my own transformers, maybe?! THANKS FOR SHARING!!
Pots also have a mismatch between the two signal levels due to a varied resistance between the two wiper paths. High end studio monitor controllers will typically use a relay network where each is connected to discrete resistors for repeatable volume levels and consistent stereo image.
@@ranbymonkeys2384 pots are pots so they all have this issue. Some people think the problem goes away with stepped pots but they are still a mechanical device where a wiper touches a resistive plate; the steps just stop the wiper in predefined locations. These locations are not exact so the resistance will vary.
@@rapfreak7797 So if you have 1 pot per channel could you not match them? They may not show the same level on the knob but they can me matched I would think?
@@ranbymonkeys2384 in theory yes but In practice no. Even resistors will have a tolerance level made to be a single value whereas a pot varies resistance based upon the location of the resistive plate; it’s a matter of physics.
@John Siket I would say it's an explanation but I wouldn't say it's a great explanation I would say it's one of many possible explanations for why so much money is charged for many of these preamps the thing is if you add up the cost of the parts in a lot of these preamps they are dirt cheap compared to the final product price, in other words a lot of the cost comes from the initial R&D but let's face it making that money back in most cases doesn't take very long and then they just go on selling it for exorbitant amounts of money and I feel in most of those cases they are making way more profit then most people would deem as Fair
@@MikeG-js1jt I'm confused about why preamps need to take R&D into account. Surely you can just implement a circuit which has already already been tried and tested twenty years ago. There are lots to choose from depending how fussy the client is. Why do we keep re-inventing the wheel?
@@westinthewest I'm sure there are scores of pre-amps out there that use "already developed" circuits, which brings us back to the original question "why are pre-amps so expensive" which leads us really to a single logical conclusion...GREED
Paul, you're like the teacher on Welcome Back Carter I look forward to learning from you, like the characters in that show. When I see a new segment that song comes to mind. So, thanks Paul for the help and the smiles.
@Paul McGowan, PS Audio Mr. Carter in the show had an easy way and an enjoyable experience. You are one of my favorite channels to check out after I pour my first cup of Joe. The best to you and your family.
Interesting explanation, thank you. Few people realize that every component adds 'color' to the signal, no matter how slight. And that coloration adds up................... Bill P.
I love the passion in your voice when you explain everything, if it wasn't for you Paul the love affair I have with music would be mediocre at best! Hope to visit PS audio when we get the all clear from the CDC. Take care 🙂
I understand that in the analog world there are a lot of compromises to make and you need good quality materials. Recently I went from the Rotel RC1590 preamp (with a Minidsp AD-DA) stage between the speakers and subs) to a fully digital Minidsp Flex Balanced. Now the entire audio chain (until the output to the power amps) is digital. I noticed a very pleasant upgrade in sound quality, especially in the low end. At low volumes the bass frequencies are much more in balance than before, where at lower volumes it gets a bit flat. Isn't digital the best way to go nowadays? Digital sound (24/96) is absolutely fine, lots of headroom both in the dynamic as in the frequency department. You can pick the absolute original digital signal, process is to match the speakers/room/desired volume and at the very last stage convert it to analog and send it to the speakers? I do that now and I will never go back. This sounds very good to me and even the phantom center is now appearing to me, like the ochestra behind the speakers. I did not get that when using the analog preamp.
all audio equipment has its own sound type and no one has the same sound! Compare with earphones straight out of the DAC. and straight out of the preamplifier and the sound should be equal. or straight out of CD player to straight out of preamplifier without DAC. and the sound shall be equal!
I have the opposite experience; I go from my Dac (with volume contreol) straight to the amp; tried with 2 different tubed linestages and the sound was not better to worse than direct Dac-Amp.
Well most DAC with variable output run at low signal level and can’t handle much capacitance load. It is not surprising that a good preamp will make a huge improvement. XLR and pro audio signal levels are the way to go if you want the finest in quality. Pro audio signal levels are higher than consumer level - more dynamic range or SNR.
Love your explanations and their basis in facts supported by experience. That said, I also like your naturalness. I have to note that you must have just had a trim - the video pics out the cuttings on your shirt - just makes you human like all of us. :)
Of course, my first thought when reading the title was Why limit this question to pre-amps? However, Paul has summed it up succinctly, with an answer that can be loosely applied in general to all components. Unfortunately. Another question might be, why is it now possible to achieve a great sounding system for a fraction of the previous cost?
The prices on really high performance op-amps have come down a lot too. With some of the offerings from TI (OPA1642 comes to mind) that ultra-low-distortion buffer has become a lot easier to implement.
Very clean 2ch preamp (described as wire with gain) can be made with at most 150eur of material. Company THAT and some others sell dedicated ICs which are made to do this while sounding very well for what they are. Most high end preamps are about harmonic distortion they add, designers do search for clean sound but also carefully add coloration to it. People are paying too much for overcharges like marketing, shops, etc. Btw, huge companies like Behringer are buying known small companies with few employers to get even more $$$ than they have. Support designers and your pockets, buy directly from them.
There's almost always more than meets the eye in any product and high end pre-amps are no different. And ethe more esoteric the design the more issues have to be dealt with. All of that is true. However, there is another reason pre-amps can get so expensive and that is simply because they can be. A lot of people buying preamps are more dedicated music buffs and are willing to spend more money for better sound or at least the perception of better sound. Pre-amps are a must have when going to separate components and many an audiophile who goes that route will spend whatever they feel is needed to make their sonic dreams come true, within their budget, of course. Manufacturers know these people are willing to spend more so they can charge more. Same reason many integrated amps cost as much as they do. Yes, often the quality of a two thousand dollar integrated is better than that of an one thousand dollar AV receiver but very rarely is there a thousand dollars worth of aural difference. But someone who even knows what the difference between the two might be is someone that will spend the money for the slightest step up in audio quality and so they get the privileged of paying more. Not saying it's never worth it. Just saying that frequently when you are willing to step into more specialized areas of any hobby it's not always improved quality that makes items cost more.
Dave P Exactly. It's also a matter of the quantity sold (demand). A company like Parasound is in the middle of mass market and boutique companies, which I think this market gives people the best bang for the buck. There are better units from boutique companies, but one must pay a lot more for little gain.
So...I'm definitely an amateur with this hifi stuff, but why not do a straight wire from the pre-amp and delegate the potentiometer duties to the powered amp? It seems like if you do it like that then you wouldn't have the impedance issue from the source disrupting the audible output. But, again, I'm just north of completely ignorant of hifi science. Love the videos and I'm already learning a lot. Thanks so much!
The power amp may not be right next to the preamp and sources. The problem is magnified if using mono block power amps. Back in the day preamps were often called control amps which is probably a better description. The idea is to have impedance matching, source selection, volume, tone, and in some cases signal processing (e.g. rumble filter) in one convenient location. This was especially important back before even your toothbrush had a remote control.
This is funny. For years I wondered how the input pots on my power amp would effect the performance, since a different setting give you a different impedance. The input pot setting for each side was slightly different on my power amp. So I was going to post a comment about that after watching the video. LOL
@@Ultimate_Wasabi Routing stuff obviously, Besides I believe these guys make their own music sometimes, Man your eyes are even sharper than mine, Cheers 🤘🍻
I wasn't crazy about the sound of your early PS Audio preamps from the 80s despite good but biased reviews by the high end press. I bought one and was severely disappointed; it sounded lean, dry and solid state as I recall. Your later products are of course much better.
Cost can be categorized. Let's say 1. Audio circuitry 2. Componant quality 3. whiz bang features 4. Styling 5. Marketing 6. Economies of scale 7. Logistics and liability 8. Labor and compliance costs Generally 1 and 2 are the least costly give or take.
Thanks for this video! I've been wondering the same myself for a lot of ourboard gear. Especially for 500-series gear where I/O and power supplies are already taken care of... I'm just really unsure where the price comes in. Passives are cheap. PCBs are cheap these days. Transformers cost a bit, but not hundreds generally. Watching now to find out!
I'm building up a portable system ATM with a built in DSP and bi amping. I can program two pots to whatever I like via the DSP so I was thinking master volume and the output channel going to the woofer. I was then thinking of using a pot between the DSP and the amp driving the tweeters. I've noticed that a pot sucks or the lower end of things if placed between the per amp and the source. But I'm going that in this specific application, that shouldn't be an issue. Fingers crossed! Thanks again for your videos! I can't wait to meet you and your team some day! 😁
To Brian in Singapore: Murphy's Nth Law (numerical assignment varies according to source, but this is usually among the single digit base laws): Nothing is as easy as it looks. 4th Laws of Thermodynamics (upgraded from Khufu's/Cheops' Law): Everything takes longer and costs more.
What world have I stumbled upon? $100 POT IN A BOX!? What's that, a gold box with a diamond pot? $6000 PREAMP? The legendary 1073s your favourite music was RECORDED into are half of that! Audiophiles are nuts, man.
Paul, everything you said is true. It is also the reason why the conga line of mixing boards (like the one behind you) pollute the signal. @1:19 "...and it was extremely clean"... ...is lost when device after device, box after box, tweak after tweak, is manipulating the once "extremely clean" signal. I am not suggesting that zero processing be done. I am, however, suggesting that studios drill into their staff that they must give serious consideration to every urge to use yet another processing box. If every additional processing operation cost $10,000 then watch how fast they would manage to put out great sounding music, without all of the superfluous processing. Maybe the the music studios should operate like the Affordable Care Act, where government approval is needed for each additional mixing box the studio wants to use? That would surly cut back on all of the unnecessary processing operations. Considering how awful most of today's music sounds (it sounds artificial, compressed, congested, contrived), studios should consider requiring mixing engineers to seek approval for excessive processing. I hate adding red tape to the production line. But considering how bad most of today's recordings sound, the engineers have only themselves to blame for the extra hoops they will have to now deal with in the approval process. In any other industry, if quality control was found to be lacking, management would take steps to remedy the problem. It seems that recording studios have an exemption carved out for them in the standards and practices that are upheld in nearly every successful business. The problem is that since very few songs get released with high fidelity, and most people do not own PS Audio level equipment, the public is oblivious to how bad most songs sound, and how fantastic they could sound, in the hands of the right mixing and mastering engineers. Cheers!
In the past I've used a 2 channel PA mixer as a preamp and unexpectedly it did provide a significant improvement in sound. And it was not an expensive piece of equipment. Hi-end preamps and Dacs tend to be way overpriced.
All of the recorded music we listen to today, has gone through mixers like yours. Yet I do not see any audiophiles making a fuss about the type of op amps they are built with, as though that only matters when it comes to the listening space.
@@marianneoelund2940 they really should be using these mixers themselves as it's the same stuff the artists use - you'll really get to hear the artist's intentions here, the way it was intended to be heard lol
Just see the cost of audio transformers. I've bought a couple for 200 USD. One preamp usually needs two of them. Transformer on input of the preamp eliminates depending on impedance. See Neve 1073.
In preamp , power supply is very important. Since , I lack much knowledge about powersupply , I simply used 9v battery and LM7805 to power LME49721 ultra low noise op amp in my Phono preamp. Modern problem needs modern solution. What you think Paul?
@@marcusm5127 true but a voltage regulator will introduce noise on your power supply, the Lm317 is better then a 7805 but making a good power supply is quite a challenge. The power supply is part of the signal path.
@@eDXTRe May I then recommend LP38798 it's the lowest noise I think Ti makes. It's sort of overkill, it's intendend for high precision analog and kind of hard to buy. Aren't we DIYers here to buy the best components and hope to beat the companies knowledge.
(n_p/n_s)^2 = z_p/z_s Where n_p is the number of turns in the primary and n_s the number of turns in the secondary. z_p is the impedance of the primary and z_s is the impedance of the secondary. A 1:1 transformer is an isolation transformer. It inductively transfers a signal at the same voltage and impedance from the primary side of the transformer to the secondary side of the transformer.
I just ordered an Adcom ( Blue Board ) GFP-750 Preamp from The Music Room. I'm anxious to hear if all the hype over the years is real, or it's "merely good" by today's standards. Since this is essentially a Pass Aleph under the hood, I'm sure it will sound quite good period, as Nelson is a truly gifted Audio designer. If any of you are interested in my thoughts, please feel free to send a comment. Take care ♫
@Yiannis2112 I ended up returning it for a refund. It was very neutral and transparent but I didn't find it very involving. Kinda cold and clinical to me. But to each, their own. :)
@@1970borntorun Thanks for replying, mate! Can you state what power amp and speakers? The result, to an extent might be down to them, too. Its good to know what was played through what.
Great answer... for anyone who manufactures and/or sells audio equipment. Ask anyone in the business; and they’ll give you a similar answer. Ask san audiophile with a degree in Electronics and Electrical Engineering; and they’ll tell you that preamps are expensive because that’s what audiophiles will pay for them. There’s a huge profit margin on preamplifiers. For all the “justification” that anyone provides, it’s all about profit and marketing. If they could sell them for more, they would. If the economy goes to pot, most of the current models would be discontinued; and to stay in business they’d start producing cheaper models with built-in limitations. If the economy didn’t pick up, they’d release a limited series that sounded ‘almost’ as good. Btw, while I have the equivalent to a gardener’s brown thumb where electronics is concerned, one one my longtime school friends went on to get a degree in Electronics and Electrical Engineering; and he like the sound of my NAD preamp so much, that he built his own. It looks like he’ll, but it actually sounds pretty damned good! He spent less than $125 CDN on it (not including interconnects.
This man doesn't realize that the mixing console behind him passes a signal trough at least 3 operational amplifiers before it reaches the output. Just general purpose TL071, TL072, NE5532, NE5534. Enable the tone controls on the mixing console and the signal now passes trough at least 6 op amps before it arrives at the output. Again, all low cost op amps. All those mixers used to record those audiophile records are recorded with mixing consoles where signals are being passed trough many op amp stages. You can download schematics for those expensive mixing consoles for free. Take a look at a Studer mixing console for example. Take a schematic for a Midas XL4, according to some the best mixing console ever made, and start counting op amps. This one features low cost discrete input circuits to reach high gain at low noise for low input signals. But that's an exception because in your home you will not amplify those low level signals.The remainder are just TL071, TL072 op amps and in some places NE5532/5534. The hybrids driving the mix bus are nothing more then laser trimmed buffered NE5532 on a ceramic substrate. And for the record: there is no single expensive capacitor in this mixing console. Connect hundred NE5532 op amps as unity gain buffers one after an other and make a tab between each stage. Let me know how many op amps it takes before you are able to hear the difference. Do the same with TL071 TL072. Do the same with BA series low cost op amps from Rohm. Ask an audience to blind test the setup while you move the tabs. It's all about signal integrity. An engineer not able to preserve signal integrity in an audio circuit with one op amp and some resistors to the extend the problem becomes audible has more than one problem and should look for an other job. In short: expensive preamps are just overpriced pieces of audiophile nonsense and bling bling and they make you pay extra for the blue LED.
I like the way he explains things: friendly & relaxed
Paul and Nelson Pass are my favorite Audio Designers. They seem to share the same Philosophy of "doing no harm", and just employing whatever methods/circuitry are best, relative to the Technology available at the time to NOT stand in the way of the Music.
Perhaps the best description of what a preamp is for that I have seen.
Please, can someone give this man an award? I never heard talk and explain someone about audio as that much interesting stories. Will use this channel to learn but also fall sleep (:
Congratulations
@I was with your mother What are you smoking bruh
@I was with your mother I'm not talking about cables but about preamps. If you can't hear a difference between a cheap preamp and a NEVE or an AVALON then you must have some hearing damage. It's also pretty easy to see the difference visually if you pull up a frequency analyzer. Stop smoking crack kid.
@I was with your mother Then tell me: Why can I hear a BIG difference in fully blind-test between amps and pre-amps? In some few cases I can also hear differences in speaker cables if it is on a good system.
Just because YOU can't hear differences does not mean everyone is alike. Hearing is as variated as there are people.. So to say it's a scam when millions of people hear differences is just a HUGE fail dude ;)
It's just as dumb as saying "all cars are exactly the same car"...
@@theostragonidis7548 He is most likely just a lying troll living at his moms house
@I was with your mother Not about what YOU say.. Because you have no clue🤣
And there are tons of evidence that disagrees with you. Actually I can't find a single evidence that does agree with you. It has ALWAYS been proven that there is a difference.. Both by messuring and blind test listening. So just stop trolling.
You sound like a twat that claims something just because you have no knowlage.
Such an excellent explanation! I now understand why my integrated amp sounds so wimpy on the low end at low volume, but much better as I increase the volume.
Paul has an immense skill in explaining very complex issues related to sound production and bringing it to a level that most can understand. Being an audiophile of many years these RUclips clips has definately futher my interest and understanding. Thanks!!
This guy is great! I didnt know what i didnt know about pre amps. I very much enjoyed learning a little about them from this fellow.
There's a twinkle in Paul's eyes every time he says "Pot"
That’s because pot is legal in Colorado.
That usually means one is stoned, but I think Paul has just had enough in his lifetime for the word to have that effect lol.
@@leeharveydarke You are so right!
@Fat Rat It certainly is!
@@scottmackey4182 and now in Canada too ! :-)
Tall you are a wealth of knowledge about everything high-end audio I could sit and listen to you speak countless hours in a row I'm glad you have a RUclips channel
Paul has probably been referred to as 'tall' before, but doubtfully as his proper name. : )
Just Found this One Paul , and Glad I did. Thanks a Great Show x
Good morning Paul, I've been in cable TV industry for about 30 years. started off as a cable TV installer then service tech then maintenance tech (a maintenance tech is the guy in the bucket truck that works on the whole neighborhood if you will). Then I got into management but I tell you that to say, working on those amplifiers to feed the neighborhoods for cable signal and all the things we have to do to make sure you get gigabytes speed. all the circuitry involved in those amplifiers turning fiber light into RF signal. The price of a BHK preamplifier is hanging on a lot of pole in your city. While I was in management I had to order inventory so I know how much those amplifiers on those poles cost so I understand to engineer something that's great as a BHK its going to cost a lot of money. And take it from the cable guy, "cables matter everyone". just the temperature of a cable will determined the attenuation of our signal, certain size cable determine how much signal I'm going to get on my output, we have to oscillate and shield our cable in order for you guys not to experience interference so you can get that gigabyte speed you want on your internet. And the hardest part of our job is to make sure we have a -50 dB noise floor throughout the whole infrastructure of our network. Cable matters more than you think ok, I'm rambling again. By the way I'm watching too many of your videos because I called my wife Terry twice at the dinner table. Lol have a great day
Do you think it makes sense to take experience with 1GHz-bandwidth signals traveling hundreds of feet through cable, and imply that 20KHz signals traveling 6-20 feet have similar issues?
That's rather like insisting that a paper airplane thrown from the top of a skyscraper needs heat shielding like the space shuttle has for its descent from orbit.
The biggest part of the cable bill was on Easter Sunday I went outside to see the cable guy finally cleaning up a wired mess that was out at the bottom of the pole for 3 years. Really HOLIDAY PAY is when you people finally do this. Then he cut the wrong wire of course and had to run a new line to my apartment and schedule for the line to be buried and well, I dont have cable anymore. I also had a problem when the oven kicked on my stereo would hummm. I learned about the ground loop eliminator of course this cable company that rhymes with COMCAST had no flippin idea what that was.
I love it when Paul gets riled up! 😅😅
Good explanation on volume control in less than 7min. I'm currently after a Benchmark LA4. Cheers!
❤️❤️❤️❤️ I wouldn’t let go of my hand-built tube preamp for anything less than 500k. Love your videos Paul.
Yes, I found the same thing 30 years ago. The BK system of volume control is the best way to go, second is resistor based . The Bryston is a fine preamp.
Impedance is so important. So many sound "engineers" nowadays don't know their electronics. Many things is made simple but things go down hill when you start assuming everything goes. Worse when those advices are passed on in the forums... ☺️
I like the way you explain things.
Fantastic explanation 👍
I don't know why this video was recommended to me but now I need to know everything about preamps.
Amazing video. I learnt so much .
Very good answer from the kindest man in Audio IMO.
Mark Levinson ML-7 pre-amplifier did obtain this balance between straight wire with pot (very expensive Spectrol Series 100 wirewound and later very expensive Penny +Giles RF15 plastic conductive) and bufferstage. One of the best (old) pre-amps ever built and expensive also ($ 4,000.00 in 1981).
La mejor intro a los preamps, gracias maestro, saludos de Argentina
A good phono stage is worth its weight in gold and doesn't have to break the bank. I use a NAD PP2e which retails for about £100 and it was a real game-changer for my TT.
My Sony LX-300USB is at the lower end of the TT market but I wanted to persist with it because I prefer an automatic TT to manual. A separate phono stage and an elliptical stylus turned the weak, distortion-filled sound into punchy bass and detailed sound.
If the separate phono stage hadn't worked out, I would have given up on this TT and gone for something a bit more upmarket but that little box makes a bigger difference than most people realise.
I really like your videos. You can learn so many things
Speaking of high quality (and
therefore expensive) preamps sitting in front of a vintage Studer desk is a convincing way of do it !
Amazing. Thanks Paul!
I love your videos there is always something I can learn.
Now that's how you answer that one Paul, great answer.
Paul, You are the best bro. I will get your PS audio direct stream. Love the way you represent things. Love you bro. Much love and success to you Paul.
I love these vids that seem like a silly question, but aren't and Paul can pull from the history he has to answer with technical information that matters. Thanks!
IMO Paul did a very good job describing this.. Bravo Paul
I have very fond memories of my PS Audio 4.6 preamp from 1989..... It had passive and active modes, and what Paul describes is exactly what I experienced. Passive was super transparent, but lacking some oomph. Kicking in the gain gave it life and dynamics, at the loss of some transparency. Sadly it had some reliability issues, noisy switches, and also was not remote control. I switched to an Adcom preamp. I liked the Adcom fine, but it was never as sweet sounding as the PS.
I've got a 4.6 as my main preamp at the moment. Love that thing, no reliability issues so far. Definitely understand the need to swap though I don't mind the lack of a remote.
The last time I watched a video like this, I was off scouring the far reaches of the web, all in search for anything I could find about making your own voltage regulators. I was interested in a regulator that I could really drain the current from, since commercially available regulators max out at about one Ampere. I find the man who found the same rabbit hole before me and did the real digging. His name is Walt Jung and he did more than build a discrete regulator. He ran multiple regulators of differing topographies through whatever paces he could and wrote some good papers and probably even won an honorary degree or three, dubbing him the Grand Poo-Bah of discreet voltage regulators. I still have yet to try out any of his regulators, having discovered the linear power supplies of Condor, International, and Power One. Which all three seem to be the same power supplies made in Oxnard and yet they go by three different names. So now I’m gonna be off searching probably about the potential of wiring my own transformers, maybe?! THANKS FOR SHARING!!
Thanks for the explanation.
Pots also have a mismatch between the two signal levels due to a varied resistance between the two wiper paths.
High end studio monitor controllers will typically use a relay network where each is connected to discrete resistors for repeatable volume levels and consistent stereo image.
Is there a same problem with electronic pots or volume controls?
@@ranbymonkeys2384 pots are pots so they all have this issue. Some people think the problem goes away with stepped pots but they are still a mechanical device where a wiper touches a resistive plate; the steps just stop the wiper in predefined locations. These locations are not exact so the resistance will vary.
@@rapfreak7797 So if you have 1 pot per channel could you not match them? They may not show the same level on the knob but they can me matched I would think?
My NAD 2400 had 2 pots left and right I could adjust the little pots on the inside to make them match.
@@ranbymonkeys2384 in theory yes but In practice no. Even resistors will have a tolerance level made to be a single value whereas a pot varies resistance based upon the location of the resistive plate; it’s a matter of physics.
A great question and and a great answer. Excellent!
It's called the PS Audio Source Preamp. With jumpers you could switch between passive and active. It was a kit. I built one. I still own it.
I can sit here and just listen to Paul lecture for hours on end.
I think I would feel much more comfortable getting an answer to this question from somebody who is not directly in the industry of selling preamps
😀
@John Siket I would say it's an explanation but I wouldn't say it's a great explanation I would say it's one of many possible explanations for why so much money is charged for many of these preamps the thing is if you add up the cost of the parts in a lot of these preamps they are dirt cheap compared to the final product price, in other words a lot of the cost comes from the initial R&D but let's face it making that money back in most cases doesn't take very long and then they just go on selling it for exorbitant amounts of money and I feel in most of those cases they are making way more profit then most people would deem as Fair
@@MikeG-js1jt I'm confused about why preamps need to take R&D into account. Surely you can just implement a circuit which has already already been tried and tested twenty years ago. There are lots to choose from depending how fussy the client is. Why do we keep re-inventing the wheel?
@@westinthewest I'm sure there are scores of pre-amps out there that use "already developed" circuits, which brings us back to the original question "why are pre-amps so expensive" which leads us really to a single logical conclusion...GREED
The USA made Schiit Freya and Freya + are highly praised in professional and user reviews and sell for $600 and $899 respectively.
I returned it for Vincent preamp. Well engineered.
Quality will cost ya no matter the application. Thanks Mr. McGowan. Excellent explanation.
Paul, you're like the teacher on Welcome Back Carter I look forward to learning from you, like the characters in that show. When I see a new segment that song comes to mind. So, thanks Paul for the help and the smiles.
Thanks! Never saw the show but I'll taker your word for it.
@Paul McGowan, PS Audio Mr. Carter in the show had an easy way and an enjoyable experience. You are one of my favorite channels to check out after I pour my first cup of Joe. The best to you and your family.
Absolutely love these explanation videos!
Interesting explanation, thank you.
Few people realize that every component adds 'color' to the signal, no matter how slight.
And that coloration adds up...................
Bill P.
The trick for the designer is to make that coloration the least objectionable as possible, which may or may not be the least "amount".
@@mkshffr4936 ....hence the legend of that great preamp 'sound' !
This is a topic with no clear end in sight.
I love the passion in your voice when you explain everything, if it wasn't for you Paul the love affair I have with music would be mediocre at best! Hope to visit PS audio when we get the all clear from the CDC. Take care 🙂
Hallelujah! Been searching for this holy grail for some time now....
Nicely explained!! Thank you 😊
Very nice explanation.
I understand that in the analog world there are a lot of compromises to make and you need good quality materials. Recently I went from the Rotel RC1590 preamp (with a Minidsp AD-DA) stage between the speakers and subs) to a fully digital Minidsp Flex Balanced. Now the entire audio chain (until the output to the power amps) is digital. I noticed a very pleasant upgrade in sound quality, especially in the low end. At low volumes the bass frequencies are much more in balance than before, where at lower volumes it gets a bit flat.
Isn't digital the best way to go nowadays? Digital sound (24/96) is absolutely fine, lots of headroom both in the dynamic as in the frequency department. You can pick the absolute original digital signal, process is to match the speakers/room/desired volume and at the very last stage convert it to analog and send it to the speakers? I do that now and I will never go back. This sounds very good to me and even the phantom center is now appearing to me, like the ochestra behind the speakers. I did not get that when using the analog preamp.
Dam you law of physics. It’s bad for my wallet.
I had been using a DAC with variable output direct to my power amp. I just upgraded to a pre-amp in between, sounds quite a bit better
all audio equipment has its own sound type and no one has the same sound!
Compare with earphones straight out of the DAC. and straight out of the preamplifier and the sound should be equal. or straight out of CD player to straight out of preamplifier without DAC. and the sound shall be equal!
I have the opposite experience; I go from my Dac (with volume contreol) straight to the amp; tried with 2 different tubed linestages and the sound was not better to worse than direct Dac-Amp.
Well most DAC with variable output run at low signal level and can’t handle much capacitance load. It is not surprising that a good preamp will make a huge improvement. XLR and pro audio signal levels are the way to go if you want the finest in quality. Pro audio signal levels are higher than consumer level - more dynamic range or SNR.
very good description, I sure agree with him (and I often don't).
I think Paul needs to get a whiteboard.
i love the Studer Behind you
Listen, OLD MAN... Do you produce BANGERS on that gear?!
Love your explanations and their basis in facts supported by experience. That said, I also like your naturalness. I have to note that you must have just had a trim - the video pics out the cuttings on your shirt - just makes you human like all of us. :)
Really excellent explanation.
Of course, my first thought when reading the title was Why limit this question to pre-amps?
However, Paul has summed it up succinctly, with an answer that can be loosely applied in general to all components.
Unfortunately.
Another question might be, why is it now possible to achieve a great sounding system for a fraction of the previous cost?
@Fat Rat
🤪
The prices on really high performance op-amps have come down a lot too. With some of the offerings from TI (OPA1642 comes to mind) that ultra-low-distortion buffer has become a lot easier to implement.
Now I need pot. THANKS PAUL! :)
I love what you do, Paul. You have a wealth of knowledge.
i remove my bhk pre the other day just to remember what the dac sounded like without it .and it defo sounded better with the pre installed.
Very clean 2ch preamp (described as wire with gain) can be made with at most 150eur of material. Company THAT and some others sell dedicated ICs which are made to do this while sounding very well for what they are. Most high end preamps are about harmonic distortion they add, designers do search for clean sound but also carefully add coloration to it. People are paying too much for overcharges like marketing, shops, etc. Btw, huge companies like Behringer are buying known small companies with few employers to get even more $$$ than they have. Support designers and your pockets, buy directly from them.
There's almost always more than meets the eye in any product and high end pre-amps are no different. And ethe more esoteric the design the more issues have to be dealt with. All of that is true. However, there is another reason pre-amps can get so expensive and that is simply because they can be. A lot of people buying preamps are more dedicated music buffs and are willing to spend more money for better sound or at least the perception of better sound. Pre-amps are a must have when going to separate components and many an audiophile who goes that route will spend whatever they feel is needed to make their sonic dreams come true, within their budget, of course. Manufacturers know these people are willing to spend more so they can charge more. Same reason many integrated amps cost as much as they do. Yes, often the quality of a two thousand dollar integrated is better than that of an one thousand dollar AV receiver but very rarely is there a thousand dollars worth of aural difference. But someone who even knows what the difference between the two might be is someone that will spend the money for the slightest step up in audio quality and so they get the privileged of paying more. Not saying it's never worth it. Just saying that frequently when you are willing to step into more specialized areas of any hobby it's not always improved quality that makes items cost more.
Dave P Exactly. It's also a matter of the quantity sold (demand). A company like Parasound is in the middle of mass market and boutique companies, which I think this market gives people the best bang for the buck. There are better units from boutique companies, but one must pay a lot more for little gain.
To add a bit of old-school tech and 1950's style sci-fi, hook up your turntable to a pair of Variac transformers.
So you can get that "Brown Sound" like Eddie Van Halen? lol :)
So...I'm definitely an amateur with this hifi stuff, but why not do a straight wire from the pre-amp and delegate the potentiometer duties to the powered amp? It seems like if you do it like that then you wouldn't have the impedance issue from the source disrupting the audible output. But, again, I'm just north of completely ignorant of hifi science.
Love the videos and I'm already learning a lot.
Thanks so much!
The power amp may not be right next to the preamp and sources. The problem is magnified if using mono block power amps.
Back in the day preamps were often called control amps which is probably a better description. The idea is to have impedance matching, source selection, volume, tone, and in some cases signal processing (e.g. rumble filter) in one convenient location. This was especially important back before even your toothbrush had a remote control.
This is funny. For years I wondered how the input pots on my power amp would effect the performance, since a different setting give you a different impedance. The input pot setting for each side was slightly different on my power amp. So I was going to post a comment about that after watching the video. LOL
That Studer 900 series behind you is my dream console, I hope I can find one in a good condition someday
I'm curious what they are doing with the SSL Six sitting on the top of the cabinet on the right.
@@Ultimate_Wasabi Routing stuff obviously, Besides I believe these guys make their own music sometimes, Man your eyes are even sharper than mine, Cheers 🤘🍻
Thank you this was very informative
Love your humor!
Please define 'wimpy.' What are we measuring? What demonstrable effect is missing? Thanks for the video.
component that make a clean sound.
WIMA polypropylene film caps after 10 yours of burn in of course
Spot on explanation, got it!
I wasn't crazy about the sound of your early PS Audio preamps from the 80s despite good but biased reviews by the high end press. I bought one and was severely disappointed; it sounded lean, dry and solid state as I recall. Your later products are of course much better.
Nicely said , love it
Cool, good stuff
Cost can be categorized. Let's say
1. Audio circuitry
2. Componant quality
3. whiz bang features
4. Styling
5. Marketing
6. Economies of scale
7. Logistics and liability
8. Labor and compliance costs
Generally 1 and 2 are the least costly give or take.
Thanks for this video! I've been wondering the same myself for a lot of ourboard gear. Especially for 500-series gear where I/O and power supplies are already taken care of... I'm just really unsure where the price comes in. Passives are cheap. PCBs are cheap these days. Transformers cost a bit, but not hundreds generally. Watching now to find out!
All that buffering he is taking about and all of those gain cells are not being done with passive components.
Very knowledgeable guy
One of his best explanations so far
I'm building up a portable system ATM with a built in DSP and bi amping. I can program two pots to whatever I like via the DSP so I was thinking master volume and the output channel going to the woofer. I was then thinking of using a pot between the DSP and the amp driving the tweeters.
I've noticed that a pot sucks or the lower end of things if placed between the per amp and the source. But I'm going that in this specific application, that shouldn't be an issue. Fingers crossed!
Thanks again for your videos! I can't wait to meet you and your team some day! 😁
That Studer 900 Series desk behind you has some very nice ... preamps! 🤓
To Brian in Singapore:
Murphy's Nth Law (numerical assignment varies according to source, but this is usually among the single digit base
laws): Nothing is as easy as it looks.
4th Laws of Thermodynamics (upgraded from Khufu's/Cheops' Law): Everything takes longer and costs more.
Nothing as easy as it looks, Have you met Fat Rat's wife, hahaha
@Fat Rat I can picture it now her with the matching red idiot rag on her head at the wedding haha
Preamp not needed unless you need input switches! (depends what pot you use also)
What world have I stumbled upon?
$100 POT IN A BOX!? What's that, a gold box with a diamond pot?
$6000 PREAMP?
The legendary 1073s your favourite music was RECORDED into are half of that!
Audiophiles are nuts, man.
Many thanks Paul
My favorite preamp to this day is a Stan Warren designed dual mono Superphon Basic preamp. A bargain in $399 1984 dollars.
So could you just bi amp and only use preamp on the woofers thus getting clean precise highs and meaty deep lows.
He nailed it.
Paul, everything you said is true.
It is also the reason why the conga line of mixing boards (like the one behind you) pollute the signal.
@1:19 "...and it was extremely clean"...
...is lost when device after device, box after box, tweak after tweak, is manipulating the once "extremely clean" signal.
I am not suggesting that zero processing be done.
I am, however, suggesting that studios drill into their staff that they must give serious consideration to every urge to use yet another processing box.
If every additional processing operation cost $10,000 then watch how fast they would manage to put out great sounding music, without all of the superfluous processing.
Maybe the the music studios should operate like the Affordable Care Act, where government approval is needed for each additional mixing box the studio wants to use? That would surly cut back on all of the unnecessary processing operations.
Considering how awful most of today's music sounds (it sounds artificial, compressed, congested, contrived), studios should consider requiring mixing engineers to seek approval for excessive processing.
I hate adding red tape to the production line. But considering how bad most of today's recordings sound, the engineers have only themselves to blame for the extra hoops they will have to now deal with in the approval process.
In any other industry, if quality control was found to be lacking, management would take steps to remedy the problem.
It seems that recording studios have an exemption carved out for them in the standards and practices that are upheld in nearly every successful business.
The problem is that since very few songs get released with high fidelity, and most people do not own PS Audio level equipment, the public is oblivious to how bad most songs sound, and how fantastic they could sound, in the hands of the right mixing and mastering engineers.
Cheers!
In the past I've used a 2 channel PA mixer as a preamp and unexpectedly it did provide a significant improvement in sound. And it was not an expensive piece of equipment. Hi-end preamps and Dacs tend to be way overpriced.
All of the recorded music we listen to today, has gone through mixers like yours. Yet I do not see any audiophiles making a fuss about the type of op amps they are built with, as though that only matters when it comes to the listening space.
@@marianneoelund2940 they really should be using these mixers themselves as it's the same stuff the artists use - you'll really get to hear the artist's intentions here, the way it was intended to be heard lol
Just see the cost of audio transformers. I've bought a couple for 200 USD. One preamp usually needs two of them. Transformer on input of the preamp eliminates depending on impedance. See Neve 1073.
In preamp , power supply is very important.
Since , I lack much knowledge about powersupply , I simply used 9v battery and LM7805 to power LME49721 ultra low noise op amp in my Phono preamp.
Modern problem needs modern solution.
What you think Paul?
Great, you could further improve your design by using Lm317 those regulators have lower noise. Kind regards
You know enough, nothing is cleaner than batteries. /EE
@@marcusm5127 true but a voltage regulator will introduce noise on your power supply, the Lm317 is better then a 7805 but making a good power supply is quite a challenge. The power supply is part of the signal path.
@@eDXTRe May I then recommend LP38798 it's the lowest noise I think Ti makes. It's sort of overkill, it's intendend for high precision analog and kind of hard to buy. Aren't we DIYers here to buy the best components and hope to beat the companies knowledge.
@@marcusm5127 great, i will check this regulator, so i can use it too in my own projects.
Kind regards Stefan
I would like to know Paul's views on the ATC monitors behind him
I'm gonna get riled up - I love it! Please explain a 1:1 impedance matching transformer please. :)
(n_p/n_s)^2 = z_p/z_s
Where n_p is the number of turns in the primary and n_s the number of turns in the secondary. z_p is the impedance of the primary and z_s is the impedance of the secondary.
A 1:1 transformer is an isolation transformer. It inductively transfers a signal at the same voltage and impedance from the primary side of the transformer to the secondary side of the transformer.
Or you can use a resistor ladder like the Mark Levinson No.32.
I presume
i see you have the SSL six. love that thing!!!
I guess it makes them expensive by filling them with pot?
I just ordered an Adcom ( Blue Board ) GFP-750 Preamp from The Music Room. I'm anxious to hear if all the hype over the years is real, or it's "merely good" by today's standards. Since this is essentially a Pass Aleph under the hood, I'm sure it will sound quite good period, as Nelson is a truly gifted Audio designer. If any of you are interested in my thoughts, please feel free to send a comment. Take care ♫
What do you think of it, two years later? With what speakers and what power amp did you hook it up to? Build quality? Sound?
@Yiannis2112 I ended up returning it for a refund. It was very neutral and transparent but I didn't find it very involving. Kinda cold and clinical to me. But to each, their own. :)
@@1970borntorun Thanks for replying, mate! Can you state what power amp and speakers? The result, to an extent might be down to them, too. Its good to know what was played through what.
Great answer... for anyone who manufactures and/or sells audio equipment.
Ask anyone in the business; and they’ll give you a similar answer. Ask san audiophile with a degree in Electronics and Electrical Engineering; and they’ll tell you that preamps are expensive because that’s what audiophiles will pay for them. There’s a huge profit margin on preamplifiers. For all the “justification” that anyone provides, it’s all about profit and marketing. If they could sell them for more, they would. If the economy goes to pot, most of the current models would be discontinued; and to stay in business they’d start producing cheaper models with built-in limitations. If the economy didn’t pick up, they’d release a limited series that sounded ‘almost’ as good.
Btw, while I have the equivalent to a gardener’s brown thumb where electronics is concerned, one one my longtime school friends went on to get a degree in Electronics and Electrical Engineering; and he like the sound of my NAD preamp so much, that he built his own. It looks like he’ll, but it actually sounds pretty damned good! He spent less than $125 CDN on it (not including interconnects.
Thanks that was interesting
This man doesn't realize that the mixing console behind him passes a signal trough at least 3 operational amplifiers before it reaches the output. Just general purpose TL071, TL072, NE5532, NE5534. Enable the tone controls on the mixing console and the signal now passes trough at least 6 op amps before it arrives at the output. Again, all low cost op amps. All those mixers used to record those audiophile records are recorded with mixing consoles where signals are being passed trough many op amp stages. You can download schematics for those expensive mixing consoles for free. Take a look at a Studer mixing console for example. Take a schematic for a Midas XL4, according to some the best mixing console ever made, and start counting op amps. This one features low cost discrete input circuits to reach high gain at low noise for low input signals. But that's an exception because in your home you will not amplify those low level signals.The remainder are just TL071, TL072 op amps and in some places NE5532/5534. The hybrids driving the mix bus are nothing more then laser trimmed buffered NE5532 on a ceramic substrate. And for the record: there is no single expensive capacitor in this mixing console. Connect hundred NE5532 op amps as unity gain buffers one after an other and make a tab between each stage. Let me know how many op amps it takes before you are able to hear the difference. Do the same with TL071 TL072. Do the same with BA series low cost op amps from Rohm. Ask an audience to blind test the setup while you move the tabs. It's all about signal integrity. An engineer not able to preserve signal integrity in an audio circuit with one op amp and some resistors to the extend the problem becomes audible has more than one problem and should look for an other job. In short: expensive preamps are just overpriced pieces of audiophile nonsense and bling bling and they make you pay extra for the blue LED.