If my world sounds interesting, the books are on sale for the whole month of July and you can pick up all three for the price of $1 each :) www.amazon.com/dp/B099Q91TL1
In a classical mythology class I had last semester, we discussed the importance of hospitality in ancient Greek culture. When a traveler arrives at a home, the host would be expected to bathe and feed their guest and only afterward would the host ask for the guest’s story. This is a major theme in The Odyssey: Odysseus’ first mistake with the cyclops is to assume it would honor Greek customs; when Odysseus’ crew open the bag of winds, they return to the wind god to ask for another, but are understandably denied it; Circe lures Odysseus’ men into her home before turning them into pigs; and of course the suitors refuse to leave Odysseus’ home until Penelope marries one of them.
Hospitality often has folkways or even taboos associated with them. The Glencoe Massacre for example involved guests turning on their host in an infamous event.
THIS kind of dense info is exacly why you are simply the best! no messing around, each video is like sitting down for a writing class i couldnt even PAY FOR at my college if i walked in with a sack of money and thats literally not hyperbole
Oddly enough I could see murder being considered a major moral sin or crime if the society in question sees nothing wrong with mind control spells. Maybe its the more 'good' version that tries to correct the criminal. Or the more 'questionable' version that sees the death of a person as no benefit to anyone, but a mindless thrall being the equivalent of death, expect the 'dead' now work to aid the living. The most messed up one I had seen was a twisted 'preacher/doctor' in a cyberpunk setting that sought to make the world a better place. So the man hunted down criminals and used his technology to rewrite their minds and made them loyal helpful servants... Who did public services and tried to help people for free. The city was unsettled by it and spoke of the man like a monster to scare children into being good, but free labor that helped people was too good to pass up since they acted like good Samaritans... And you never knew if that person was just a nice person or a captured and reformatted criminal. The preacher/doctor himself saw no issue with what he was doing as he claimed that killing a criminal condemned them in the afterlife and by his forceful conversion process the new reformatted individual would spend the rest of their lives doing good deeds to help save the soup to ensure more people would go to the better afterlife instead. The attempt by one person to argue otherwise by asking 'what if it just kills that person and replaces them with someone else?' The doctor/preacher's reply was simple 'I doubt I am wrong, but if I am then than person was already doomed to go there anyway and the new soul made deserves to ascend instead then.
Using magic in public might be taboo in a similar way.That brandishing a gun might be in the united states society. Depending on the region and local laws, it may be appropriate to conceal and carry or not at all. Potions may need to be hidden in a paper bag similar to alcohol.
There is something similar I used that is quite similar to this. I was introduced with a book called "Understanding Global Cultures" by Martin J. Gannon that introduced Geert Holfstede's Cultural Dimensions, quite similar (or perhaps it is inspired by) to what you've introduced. (Note: The material is more really intended for business students, but I think it's helpful in understanding how to worldbuild a culture's core values, and this video definitely hits on this well.) For those unfamiliar: It's divided into Power Distance Index (PDI - how a society accepts hierarchy, how readily a society questions authority, and accepts inequality), Individualism vs Collectivism (IDV - how much people in society are integrated into groups), Uncertainty Avoidance (UAI - a society's tolerance for ambiguity), Motivation towards Achievement/Success (MAS - how competitive a society's members are), Long-Term Orientation (LTO - whether the society has the cultural capability to see long-term goals), and Indulgence (IND - how much a society values leisure) In your case, converted to Holfstede's dimensions, you used IDV (... I mean it's right there :) ), UAI (free vs. ordered) in full. With Hierarchy vs Egalitarianism, that's a mixture of PDI and MAS. Traditional vs progressive, seems be a mixture of LTO and MAS. I have additional ones that someone else made up, but not sure where they came from, but I used them for my writing: Stability Rating (STB - the amount of internal tensions and destabilizing factors in society), Role Expectations (RE - how fixed/flexible are individuals in a society when placed in a role), Expansiveness (EXP - Is the society isolationist or seeks to spread), and Cohesiveness (COH - whether they have a common cause to be united or if there are multiple sub-cultures/groups/parties who act with incompatible agendas). Quite a deal more complicated, especially the latter stuff, but might be worth looking!
I was definitely aware of Holfstede's dimensions. The model wasn't explicitly inspired by his framework, but his framework influenced my thinking. (Man it's a weird thing to explain. The framework is part of my overall knowledge so it was an input into the model creation. I hope that makes sense).
@@JustInTimeWorlds It's okay! As I mentioned, Holfstede's work is *mostly* used in a business/management sense (and certain aspects don't quite match up right), hence why I treat the framework you use as more "this is more proper in a worldbuilding sense", since it simplifies to four aspects that would more relevant to usage in writing that could help a person write characters or settings more consistently and in a way that makes sense given a character's worldview/upbringing within a society.
My favorite tiny worldbuilding touch that feeds into this is what "flipping someone off" looks like in my setting. Raising the arm then grabbing and rubbing/tugging on your wrist. This mimics putting on casting gloves, so you basically are threatening them that you'll start using magic. Casting gloves are also a universal requirement for mgaic so it even makes sense to many other cultures throughout the world even if it isnt as popular.
@@JustInTimeWorlds thank you. Gloves being required when handling magic came about from my own need for them for working with tools and dangerous materials. What's more dangerous than magic? As well the gloves I had were these old beat up leather gloves and I constantly had to tighten them so Id be grabbing the wrists and it seemed so distinct that I wanted to feature it.
One social more I came up with for my society is that since social status is based of of magical ability and magical ability isn't hereditary and doesn't fully develop until adulthood everyone regardless of their own social status treats children as equals (since they might be one day).
I found the section on 4 Cultural Attributes to be very helpful and decided to immediately think about their values for my main religious organization. I then decided to have a second set of the numbers for how they are seen by people outside of their organization.
When it comes to just manners I can see instead of handshakes you put two fingers to the right side of your head as respect and two fingers to the left side of your head as being rude
That seems very biased against left-handed people. Maybe instead place them on the same side as your dominant hand for respect and the opposite (perhaps crossing the face) for disrespect.
@@kohakuaiko frankly that seems realistic that it would be biased (edit: which is bad obviously). eg we almost always shake right hands for example. most people dont know what most other peoples dominant hand is, and if youre just meeting someone theres no way to tell so you wouldn't be able to disentangle the disrespect and lefthandedness elements, it'd probably have to come to encode only one of those. maybe a secondary gesture like a face thing would evolve to show disrespect instead and then it still allowed for you to do that. although at that point its more about the face than the side of the head and we're back at the same situation
So a couple of idea's one is those 4 pillars could be different between an objective view of the society and internal view and the common external view. For instance in the USA we tend to think of ourselves as free egalitarian and individualistic, but the truth is that we are becoming much more ordered and collectivist and have always been very hierarchical. My other thought is that when determining when/what is acceptable but that an important subset of that is who is doing what to who, if you look at the Hammurabic code it formally delineates society into 3 categories of people and the penalties for a single action vary depending on relative social class, and while the law may not have made those kinds of distinctions in medieval Europe I am fairly certain that the the same applied in fact if not in law between the social classes.
The class thing is sadly 100% true. Everyone is equal under the law is a modern idea and even in modern times, it's somewhat of a polite fiction we tell ourselves. Enormous amounts of money or status does make a difference to how a person is treated under the law. That kind of difference between what the culture believes of itself and how events play out could be a really great source of tension in a story :D
@@JustInTimeWorlds Everyone is equal under the law may be a modern idea, but people are greater or lesser under the law is undemocratic is an Ancient Greek idea.
What an amazing overview for the different categories! Thank you, this will definitely help me structuring my plethora of (far to many) details in my worldbuilding. 🥰
Very well done! It makes me consider my place in my own society, I don't belong there at all. LOL. I'm really fired up about these ideas of yours. Thank you!
I would say that mores need to be shaped by the economics and power. This presentation seems to suggests that mores can be arbitrarily derived from the four pillars. I doubt that. For example take again Sanderson, specifically the Mistborn series. The way the allomantic powers are inherited would, if left on their on lead to polygamy. A noble with a harem of low class women would have more allomantic warriors for his house. Sanderson understood that and hence introduced a rule of his dictatorship enforcing monomgamy.
Of course economics and the material condition enter into the creation of mores. However, the essence of world building is that the world builder decides what mores to build. Sanderson decided he wanted the Mistborn world the way it is. He built the economics, the mores, the class struggles. All of it was built by him. Economics, material conditions, the class struggle, it's all in the world by his choice. Did he start with economics and derive the mores, or did he start with the mores and build the economics to support those mores? We'll never know unless he tells us. For myself, I have a very messy process where I half build the mores, half build the economy, come back and adjust the mores, return and adjust the economy until I'm happy the whole thing makes sense. Long story short, it's not the real world. There aren't real economic factors at play. There are the economic factors at play that the world builder introduces. So yes, you can invent the mores first and then invent the economic and material conditions to support it, or you can invent the economics and material conditions and do exploratory world building to see what mores might result. Either way, the world builder is making it up. There will be a whole podcast on economics, perhaps even more than one given the complexity of the subject.
For the brandishing of magic in public idea magical labourers would get a pass as they aren't brandishing magic at gary and marge civilian-passerby's but creating buildings with blood magic is a cheap yet quick way to build a building but it becomes uber brittle after 10 months. Summoning demons to create buildings is risky to the caster involving 40 contracts in triplicate plus the signed terms and conditions ( of which the penalty clause is your soul or a fate worse than death, if the penalty is severe enough) but is a sure fire way to create a building that stands for 10's of thousands of years after the summons.
In my world, all humans have easy access to learning magic. As a result, most gestures are considered rude gestures, and wild gesticulation generally results in getting beaten up.
I think my control magic could be a serious taboo outside of war in self-defense I can also see certain people being licensed to use it bad side of that you get the death penalty or some serious penalty
@@JustInTimeWorlds That would depend on the variation of power among mages. If a small number of mages basically are demigods, while anybody else can light a candle or something similar, it is very hard to see why the supermages would heed any law. They would be the law.
@@oneukum And that would of course be the world builder's choice to make mages so powerful and unregulated. Or they could choose to have some kind of control mechanism, for example the way Gwynne does it with magical collars. World builder's choice. But controlling someone else is one of those powers that make people shiver, so IMO, people would try to control it. If they would succeed is question for the world builder to answer.
@@JustInTimeWorlds Yes, they would try and yes, the chances of success are up to circumstances, which can be picked upon worldbuilding. However, the issue I see in quite some books is consistency. Things like a secret police hunting the mind (or blood or whatever) mages and at the same time an otherwise extremely liberal society. It does not match.
@@oneukum Yeah, that I agree with. Law of unintended consequences: if you have secret assassins hunting evildoers, there is quite likely to be mistakes and not evil doers getting caught in the crossfire creates a sense of fear. If that isn't shown, it will hit my "something not right here" radar as well. It could be made to work, but you'd need some kind 100% guaranteed method of checking evildoers. Maybe AI hunters? Who have no stakes in being corrupted? Might still feel weird, but it could work. Or some kind of fantasy animal that sniffs out an evildoer mage? It would take a lot of work haha.
Hey i got a question what would be the breaking point in societies and how it would be addressed but im thinking when normal solutions aren`t workable?
I'm not quite following, the breaking point in what sense? Like if someone say broke a norm? It would depend on if it was a folkway, a more or a taboo. A folkway, nothing much, people would think the norm-breaker is weird. A more is more serious (heh, see what I did there?). There might be legal consequences, depending on the legal system of the culture. A taboo is very serious. It might result in being kicked out of the culture completely, depending on how important the taboo is.
@@mikko272 Do you mean like where a group uses the power of societal taboos to enforce their will, despite no legal enforcement existing? In such cases, the group might leverage the social and cultural weight of taboos to control behavior and maintain order. For example, in some traditional Polynesian societies, the concept of "tapu" (from which the English word "taboo" is derived) is used to designate certain objects, places, or behaviors as sacred and untouchable. Violating these tapu could lead to severe social ostracism or banishment, even in the absence of formal legal repercussions. You can basically get removed from the community because no one will speak to you. In a fantasy example, in Rothfuss' "The Name of the Wind" world, the Adem society enforces strict cultural taboos related to emotional expression and conduct. Any Adem who breaks these taboos risks getting themselves kicked out. Think of it kind of like a strict religious sect that might kick out a member if they break one of the rules. There's no legal repercussions, no one goes to jail, but the taboo-breaker loses all community and this can be a very harsh punishment.
@@mikko272 Then one of two things happen. Either the taboo stops being a taboo because everyone ignores it and the taboo changes. (E.g. how the attitude toward the queer community being in the public eye has changed over the years, until it is no longer taboo to be queer, at least not in my culture. Back in the fifties, it was even illegal here in Finland to be queer. That has now changed dramatically of course, due in part to people ignoring taboos and forging a new culture). However, if there is some fantasy enforcement of a taboo, (e.g. there's a lightening bolt that strikes the person who broke the taboo), then the taboo is suddenly in full force again after that happens, because there is a clear consequence for breaking the taboo. (Obviously an exaggerated example :P )
as an american i’ve never called anyone mr. so and so outside of the context of my teachers and even that was only upon request. i don’t even call my ceo mr. let alone the parents of my friends. is this a regional or class thing?
It might be (I'm on the outside of American culture looking in :) ). My impression from media (aka American TV series as a kid) and some basic research (a couple of reddit posts) is that there is (or perhaps was) a convention where kids called the parents of their friends Mr. or Mrs. [The first letter of the person's surname]. But it could be out of date or regional. Your country is a big place :)
I will describe an amalgamation/average of many cultures across the region I'm working on, but they individually could vary to the point of their incompatibilities leading to frequent wars. I will use 1 to describe the extreme on the left quality and 10 for an extreme on the right quality (ie 1 for extremely hierarchical and 10 for extremely egalitarian). Hierarchy vs Egalitarianism: 4-6 Collectivism vs Individualism: 3-5 Free vs Ordered: 5-7 (9 for one of the major empires that has blocked trade with the outside world from the region, it claims to not be an empire and ro bring progress to the region but is as close as you could get in the region to Ingsoc and is considered a threat to the cultures and traditions of the rest of the polities. A large portion of the polities would count as absolute monarchies or dictatorships with fewer democracies since they tend to fall sooner in the region's volatility where a neighbour could invade the next day and slower systems tend to collapse sooner as a result. It's less for absolute control and more for securing the land from raiders and rival conquests. Even this largely authoritarian region has largely agreed that the previously mentioned faction is a collective threat.) Traditional vs Progressive: Socially: 3-4, Technologically: 5-6. These societies on the outside look like cultures from our past from the bronze to medieval ages but some have developed and integrated newer technologies like cars, trains and electricity (if the resources allow so many are still medieval because they cannot afford to buy or develop certain things so they may resort to stealing.). They maintain traditional culture, clothing and architecture while mixing it with the technology available to them. The most advanced vehicles and weapons resemble those of the 1910s - late 1940s/early 1950s with some areas changing faster than others. There beliefs mirror older and nonWestern societies where time is viewed as cycles with no guarantee of progress given by our modern linear view of history. They don't see conquest and imperialism in themselves as inherently evil, with military achievements sometimes swaying the populace to *want* someone as their leader, with great warriors and conquerers getting monuments and recognition like how the Mongols have a giant statue of Genghis Khan, the conquerer who united the Mongol tribes and created the largest empire in history through both brutal conquest of cities that refused to surrender and guaranteed safety to the Silk Road trade and cultures that submitted without fighting. They have differing moral codes that could be seen as alien, outmoded or even backwards by modern Western standards, but may fit right in with some ancient societies like Akkad, Mughal Empire or Mycenae. There are electric and steam cars resembling the 50s but there are no automatic rifles, jet engines or guided weapons. Cities look like if the iron age had electricity. Clothing looks ancient too resmbling older cuktures from across Eurasia going to bronze and iron age influences like the Minoans, Israelites and Chinese. Despite the colder climate, most sapients in the region are nonhumans like canines, felines, ursids and mustelids with fur coats so clothing is more decorative. The fur means some clothing styles may be difficult and uncomfortable to use so they may be less covering or tight compared to some real clothing. They do not use styles from our modern world like T-shirts, jeans or business suits. Some cultures desire modesty, especially around different species while others may be less strict about being fully covered, even in public or special areas. They may also have Classical age styled bathhouses heated with hotsprings, furnaces or newer methods. Cars are expensive exotic goods built by metallurgy guilds and decorated with cultural flares so they are rare and share ancient stone roads with pedestrians, carts and trams. Rifles like bolt and lever action varieties are limited to hugher soldiers ro prevent proliferation so most commoners and lower soldiers use modernised bows and crossbows with firearms being traded in the black markets and looted from trains, same with automobiles. Machine guns also exist but must be attached to legs or a vehicle because they are heavy. Knights with plate armour could be transported by trains or airships and lead landships on the ground decorated with army, clan or house colors, symbols and banners/standards. In general, these cultures may believe certain new technologies could be helpful while others are unnecessary and may also take a stance similar to Japan where modern technology should help support traditional cultures. These cultures seem to need two separate versions of the last pillar because they are traditional in some ways and progressive in other ways without these two directly conflicting.
After noting several times what a pitfall this can be if you go into too many details when not needed, I would have expected you mention the one factor that can make all this easier. Religion. If gods exist, if there is a pantheon, some of these pillars might by universal in the entire world and partially in place because of religion. Although you should limit yourself to a small pantheon or a few singular deities, not this massive number of deities Dungeon & Dragons has.
In my world there are two principle cultures at play, the empire and its vasile territory, the hills. The empire is very hierarchical, and religious orders have high status. In the hills different ocupations have their own organization, and authority is based on the situation. In both ,magic outside of the church is taboo because they fear unchecked magic could destroy the world. The main characters are both holy warriors, one is a holy knight serving the impetial church, the other is a hills shaman who joined the imperial army. When they go to the hills, the shaman is sent away from the war council because he's not part of the hills warrior society, and it's assumed that he's trying to have both authorities. The holy knight is allowed because he has imperial rank.
I also think you could mix social norms in bureaucracy someone's idiot kid shows it to work in the bathing suit but you can't fire him because his dad controls shipping licenses
If we are talking about games and fantasy I have scsntly clad women cause I like looking at beautiful women. Their is nothing wrong with it. Im also not going to put that much effort.
If my world sounds interesting, the books are on sale for the whole month of July and you can pick up all three for the price of $1 each :) www.amazon.com/dp/B099Q91TL1
In a classical mythology class I had last semester, we discussed the importance of hospitality in ancient Greek culture. When a traveler arrives at a home, the host would be expected to bathe and feed their guest and only afterward would the host ask for the guest’s story. This is a major theme in The Odyssey: Odysseus’ first mistake with the cyclops is to assume it would honor Greek customs; when Odysseus’ crew open the bag of winds, they return to the wind god to ask for another, but are understandably denied it; Circe lures Odysseus’ men into her home before turning them into pigs; and of course the suitors refuse to leave Odysseus’ home until Penelope marries one of them.
Hospitality often has folkways or even taboos associated with them. The Glencoe Massacre for example involved guests turning on their host in an infamous event.
THIS kind of dense info is exacly why you are simply the best! no messing around, each video is like sitting down for a writing class i couldnt even PAY FOR at my college if i walked in with a sack of money and thats literally not hyperbole
Thank you very much :) And happy writing!
Oddly enough I could see murder being considered a major moral sin or crime if the society in question sees nothing wrong with mind control spells.
Maybe its the more 'good' version that tries to correct the criminal.
Or the more 'questionable' version that sees the death of a person as no benefit to anyone, but a mindless thrall being the equivalent of death, expect the 'dead' now work to aid the living.
The most messed up one I had seen was a twisted 'preacher/doctor' in a cyberpunk setting that sought to make the world a better place.
So the man hunted down criminals and used his technology to rewrite their minds and made them loyal helpful servants... Who did public services and tried to help people for free.
The city was unsettled by it and spoke of the man like a monster to scare children into being good, but free labor that helped people was too good to pass up since they acted like good Samaritans... And you never knew if that person was just a nice person or a captured and reformatted criminal.
The preacher/doctor himself saw no issue with what he was doing as he claimed that killing a criminal condemned them in the afterlife and by his forceful conversion process the new reformatted individual would spend the rest of their lives doing good deeds to help save the soup to ensure more people would go to the better afterlife instead.
The attempt by one person to argue otherwise by asking 'what if it just kills that person and replaces them with someone else?'
The doctor/preacher's reply was simple 'I doubt I am wrong, but if I am then than person was already doomed to go there anyway and the new soul made deserves to ascend instead then.
Damn. That is some twisted thought provoking stuff. For me, that question of are we who we are without our memories is such a compelling question.
Using magic in public might be taboo in a similar way.That brandishing a gun might be in the united states society. Depending on the region and local laws, it may be appropriate to conceal and carry or not at all. Potions may need to be hidden in a paper bag similar to alcohol.
Hahahaha, that's an awesome thought. "Gimme a swig man, my leg is killing me" *Passes the brown paper bag.*
@JustInTimeWorlds *Instantly becomes invisible upon sipping* oops, sorry, wrong bottle!
There is something similar I used that is quite similar to this. I was introduced with a book called "Understanding Global Cultures" by Martin J. Gannon that introduced Geert Holfstede's Cultural Dimensions, quite similar (or perhaps it is inspired by) to what you've introduced. (Note: The material is more really intended for business students, but I think it's helpful in understanding how to worldbuild a culture's core values, and this video definitely hits on this well.)
For those unfamiliar: It's divided into Power Distance Index (PDI - how a society accepts hierarchy, how readily a society questions authority, and accepts inequality), Individualism vs Collectivism (IDV - how much people in society are integrated into groups), Uncertainty Avoidance (UAI - a society's tolerance for ambiguity), Motivation towards Achievement/Success (MAS - how competitive a society's members are), Long-Term Orientation (LTO - whether the society has the cultural capability to see long-term goals), and Indulgence (IND - how much a society values leisure)
In your case, converted to Holfstede's dimensions, you used IDV (... I mean it's right there :) ), UAI (free vs. ordered) in full. With Hierarchy vs Egalitarianism, that's a mixture of PDI and MAS. Traditional vs progressive, seems be a mixture of LTO and MAS.
I have additional ones that someone else made up, but not sure where they came from, but I used them for my writing: Stability Rating (STB - the amount of internal tensions and destabilizing factors in society), Role Expectations (RE - how fixed/flexible are individuals in a society when placed in a role), Expansiveness (EXP - Is the society isolationist or seeks to spread), and Cohesiveness (COH - whether they have a common cause to be united or if there are multiple sub-cultures/groups/parties who act with incompatible agendas).
Quite a deal more complicated, especially the latter stuff, but might be worth looking!
I was definitely aware of Holfstede's dimensions. The model wasn't explicitly inspired by his framework, but his framework influenced my thinking. (Man it's a weird thing to explain. The framework is part of my overall knowledge so it was an input into the model creation. I hope that makes sense).
@@JustInTimeWorlds It's okay! As I mentioned, Holfstede's work is *mostly* used in a business/management sense (and certain aspects don't quite match up right), hence why I treat the framework you use as more "this is more proper in a worldbuilding sense", since it simplifies to four aspects that would more relevant to usage in writing that could help a person write characters or settings more consistently and in a way that makes sense given a character's worldview/upbringing within a society.
My favorite tiny worldbuilding touch that feeds into this is what "flipping someone off" looks like in my setting.
Raising the arm then grabbing and rubbing/tugging on your wrist.
This mimics putting on casting gloves, so you basically are threatening them that you'll start using magic. Casting gloves are also a universal requirement for mgaic so it even makes sense to many other cultures throughout the world even if it isnt as popular.
That's a great gesture, given your magic system :D
@@JustInTimeWorlds thank you. Gloves being required when handling magic came about from my own need for them for working with tools and dangerous materials. What's more dangerous than magic?
As well the gloves I had were these old beat up leather gloves and I constantly had to tighten them so Id be grabbing the wrists and it seemed so distinct that I wanted to feature it.
One social more I came up with for my society is that since social status is based of of magical ability and magical ability isn't hereditary and doesn't fully develop until adulthood everyone regardless of their own social status treats children as equals (since they might be one day).
I found the section on 4 Cultural Attributes to be very helpful and decided to immediately think about their values for my main religious organization. I then decided to have a second set of the numbers for how they are seen by people outside of their organization.
That is a really great approach.
When it comes to just manners I can see instead of handshakes you put two fingers to the right side of your head as respect and two fingers to the left side of your head as being rude
Heh! Absolutely :D
That seems very biased against left-handed people. Maybe instead place them on the same side as your dominant hand for respect and the opposite (perhaps crossing the face) for disrespect.
@@kohakuaiko frankly that seems realistic that it would be biased (edit: which is bad obviously). eg we almost always shake right hands for example. most people dont know what most other peoples dominant hand is, and if youre just meeting someone theres no way to tell so you wouldn't be able to disentangle the disrespect and lefthandedness elements, it'd probably have to come to encode only one of those. maybe a secondary gesture like a face thing would evolve to show disrespect instead and then it still allowed for you to do that. although at that point its more about the face than the side of the head and we're back at the same situation
So a couple of idea's one is those 4 pillars could be different between an objective view of the society and internal view and the common external view. For instance in the USA we tend to think of ourselves as free egalitarian and individualistic, but the truth is that we are becoming much more ordered and collectivist and have always been very hierarchical. My other thought is that when determining when/what is acceptable but that an important subset of that is who is doing what to who, if you look at the Hammurabic code it formally delineates society into 3 categories of people and the penalties for a single action vary depending on relative social class, and while the law may not have made those kinds of distinctions in medieval Europe I am fairly certain that the the same applied in fact if not in law between the social classes.
The class thing is sadly 100% true. Everyone is equal under the law is a modern idea and even in modern times, it's somewhat of a polite fiction we tell ourselves. Enormous amounts of money or status does make a difference to how a person is treated under the law.
That kind of difference between what the culture believes of itself and how events play out could be a really great source of tension in a story :D
@@JustInTimeWorlds Everyone is equal under the law may be a modern idea, but people are greater or lesser under the law is undemocratic is an Ancient Greek idea.
One of your best videos yet! Thank you very much for this one; it's really helped me define some of my D&D cultures.
Thanks :) And I'm glad you found it useful!
What an amazing overview for the different categories! Thank you, this will definitely help me structuring my plethora of (far to many) details in my worldbuilding. 🥰
Very well done! It makes me consider my place in my own society, I don't belong there at all. LOL. I'm really fired up about these ideas of yours. Thank you!
Great video, thank you, would love to see some frame work for mores and taboos like you brilliantly did with folkways in the future
I’ll give it some thought :)
@@JustInTimeWorlds please do, it gave me some structure for my ideas so I didnt go overboard like you mentioned
I would say that mores need to be shaped by the economics and power. This presentation seems to suggests that mores can be arbitrarily derived from the four pillars. I doubt that.
For example take again Sanderson, specifically the Mistborn series. The way the allomantic powers are inherited would, if left on their on lead to polygamy. A noble with a harem of low class women would have more allomantic warriors for his house. Sanderson understood that and hence introduced a rule of his dictatorship enforcing monomgamy.
Of course economics and the material condition enter into the creation of mores. However, the essence of world building is that the world builder decides what mores to build. Sanderson decided he wanted the Mistborn world the way it is. He built the economics, the mores, the class struggles. All of it was built by him. Economics, material conditions, the class struggle, it's all in the world by his choice.
Did he start with economics and derive the mores, or did he start with the mores and build the economics to support those mores? We'll never know unless he tells us.
For myself, I have a very messy process where I half build the mores, half build the economy, come back and adjust the mores, return and adjust the economy until I'm happy the whole thing makes sense.
Long story short, it's not the real world. There aren't real economic factors at play. There are the economic factors at play that the world builder introduces. So yes, you can invent the mores first and then invent the economic and material conditions to support it, or you can invent the economics and material conditions and do exploratory world building to see what mores might result.
Either way, the world builder is making it up.
There will be a whole podcast on economics, perhaps even more than one given the complexity of the subject.
For the brandishing of magic in public idea magical labourers would get a pass as they aren't brandishing magic at gary and marge civilian-passerby's but creating buildings with blood magic is a cheap yet quick way to build a building but it becomes uber brittle after 10 months. Summoning demons to create buildings is risky to the caster involving 40 contracts in triplicate plus the signed terms and conditions ( of which the penalty clause is your soul or a fate worse than death, if the penalty is severe enough) but is a sure fire way to create a building that stands for 10's of thousands of years after the summons.
I chortled at the thought of summoning demons to create buildings.
In my world, all humans have easy access to learning magic. As a result, most gestures are considered rude gestures, and wild gesticulation generally results in getting beaten up.
Heh, I assume your magic system involves gestures?
@@JustInTimeWorlds it's d&d, magic requires spoken word, gestures, and sometimes materials
I think my control magic could be a serious taboo outside of war in self-defense I can also see certain people being licensed to use it bad side of that you get the death penalty or some serious penalty
I think any type of control magic would be somewhat regulated, whether by convention or law or both.
@@JustInTimeWorlds That would depend on the variation of power among mages. If a small number of mages basically are demigods, while anybody else can light a candle or something similar, it is very hard to see why the supermages would heed
any law. They would be the law.
@@oneukum And that would of course be the world builder's choice to make mages so powerful and unregulated. Or they could choose to have some kind of control mechanism, for example the way Gwynne does it with magical collars. World builder's choice.
But controlling someone else is one of those powers that make people shiver, so IMO, people would try to control it. If they would succeed is question for the world builder to answer.
@@JustInTimeWorlds Yes, they would try and yes, the chances of success are up to circumstances, which can be picked upon worldbuilding.
However, the issue I see in quite some books is consistency. Things like a secret police hunting the mind (or blood or whatever) mages and at the same time an otherwise extremely liberal society. It does not match.
@@oneukum Yeah, that I agree with. Law of unintended consequences: if you have secret assassins hunting evildoers, there is quite likely to be mistakes and not evil doers getting caught in the crossfire creates a sense of fear. If that isn't shown, it will hit my "something not right here" radar as well.
It could be made to work, but you'd need some kind 100% guaranteed method of checking evildoers. Maybe AI hunters? Who have no stakes in being corrupted? Might still feel weird, but it could work.
Or some kind of fantasy animal that sniffs out an evildoer mage?
It would take a lot of work haha.
The culture I'm working on (assuming you really mean 0 to 10 , which puts five at the center) Has ratings 7,3,4,8
Thank you for this video, it helps a lot!❤
You're so welcome!
Hey i got a question what would be the breaking point in societies and how it would be addressed but im thinking when normal solutions aren`t workable?
I'm not quite following, the breaking point in what sense? Like if someone say broke a norm? It would depend on if it was a folkway, a more or a taboo. A folkway, nothing much, people would think the norm-breaker is weird. A more is more serious (heh, see what I did there?). There might be legal consequences, depending on the legal system of the culture. A taboo is very serious. It might result in being kicked out of the culture completely, depending on how important the taboo is.
@@JustInTimeWorlds have you seen example when group uses taboo power to have they way in situations and there is int a way to force law?
@@mikko272 Do you mean like where a group uses the power of societal taboos to enforce their will, despite no legal enforcement existing?
In such cases, the group might leverage the social and cultural weight of taboos to control behavior and maintain order. For example, in some traditional Polynesian societies, the concept of "tapu" (from which the English word "taboo" is derived) is used to designate certain objects, places, or behaviors as sacred and untouchable. Violating these tapu could lead to severe social ostracism or banishment, even in the absence of formal legal repercussions. You can basically get removed from the community because no one will speak to you.
In a fantasy example, in Rothfuss' "The Name of the Wind" world, the Adem society enforces strict cultural taboos related to emotional expression and conduct. Any Adem who breaks these taboos risks getting themselves kicked out.
Think of it kind of like a strict religious sect that might kick out a member if they break one of the rules. There's no legal repercussions, no one goes to jail, but the taboo-breaker loses all community and this can be a very harsh punishment.
@@JustInTimeWorlds im thinking of a situation were law & cultural enforcement dosen`t work.
@@mikko272 Then one of two things happen. Either the taboo stops being a taboo because everyone ignores it and the taboo changes. (E.g. how the attitude toward the queer community being in the public eye has changed over the years, until it is no longer taboo to be queer, at least not in my culture. Back in the fifties, it was even illegal here in Finland to be queer. That has now changed dramatically of course, due in part to people ignoring taboos and forging a new culture).
However, if there is some fantasy enforcement of a taboo, (e.g. there's a lightening bolt that strikes the person who broke the taboo), then the taboo is suddenly in full force again after that happens, because there is a clear consequence for breaking the taboo.
(Obviously an exaggerated example :P )
as an american i’ve never called anyone mr. so and so outside of the context of my teachers and even that was only upon request. i don’t even call my ceo mr. let alone the parents of my friends. is this a regional or class thing?
It might be (I'm on the outside of American culture looking in :) ). My impression from media (aka American TV series as a kid) and some basic research (a couple of reddit posts) is that there is (or perhaps was) a convention where kids called the parents of their friends Mr. or Mrs. [The first letter of the person's surname].
But it could be out of date or regional. Your country is a big place :)
I will describe an amalgamation/average of many cultures across the region I'm working on, but they individually could vary to the point of their incompatibilities leading to frequent wars. I will use 1 to describe the extreme on the left quality and 10 for an extreme on the right quality (ie 1 for extremely hierarchical and 10 for extremely egalitarian).
Hierarchy vs Egalitarianism: 4-6
Collectivism vs Individualism: 3-5
Free vs Ordered: 5-7 (9 for one of the major empires that has blocked trade with the outside world from the region, it claims to not be an empire and ro bring progress to the region but is as close as you could get in the region to Ingsoc and is considered a threat to the cultures and traditions of the rest of the polities. A large portion of the polities would count as absolute monarchies or dictatorships with fewer democracies since they tend to fall sooner in the region's volatility where a neighbour could invade the next day and slower systems tend to collapse sooner as a result. It's less for absolute control and more for securing the land from raiders and rival conquests. Even this largely authoritarian region has largely agreed that the previously mentioned faction is a collective threat.)
Traditional vs Progressive: Socially: 3-4, Technologically: 5-6.
These societies on the outside look like cultures from our past from the bronze to medieval ages but some have developed and integrated newer technologies like cars, trains and electricity (if the resources allow so many are still medieval because they cannot afford to buy or develop certain things so they may resort to stealing.). They maintain traditional culture, clothing and architecture while mixing it with the technology available to them. The most advanced vehicles and weapons resemble those of the 1910s - late 1940s/early 1950s with some areas changing faster than others.
There beliefs mirror older and nonWestern societies where time is viewed as cycles with no guarantee of progress given by our modern linear view of history. They don't see conquest and imperialism in themselves as inherently evil, with military achievements sometimes swaying the populace to *want* someone as their leader, with great warriors and conquerers getting monuments and recognition like how the Mongols have a giant statue of Genghis Khan, the conquerer who united the Mongol tribes and created the largest empire in history through both brutal conquest of cities that refused to surrender and guaranteed safety to the Silk Road trade and cultures that submitted without fighting. They have differing moral codes that could be seen as alien, outmoded or even backwards by modern Western standards, but may fit right in with some ancient societies like Akkad, Mughal Empire or Mycenae.
There are electric and steam cars resembling the 50s but there are no automatic rifles, jet engines or guided weapons. Cities look like if the iron age had electricity.
Clothing looks ancient too resmbling older cuktures from across Eurasia going to bronze and iron age influences like the Minoans, Israelites and Chinese. Despite the colder climate, most sapients in the region are nonhumans like canines, felines, ursids and mustelids with fur coats so clothing is more decorative. The fur means some clothing styles may be difficult and uncomfortable to use so they may be less covering or tight compared to some real clothing. They do not use styles from our modern world like T-shirts, jeans or business suits. Some cultures desire modesty, especially around different species while others may be less strict about being fully covered, even in public or special areas.
They may also have Classical age styled bathhouses heated with hotsprings, furnaces or newer methods.
Cars are expensive exotic goods built by metallurgy guilds and decorated with cultural flares so they are rare and share ancient stone roads with pedestrians, carts and trams.
Rifles like bolt and lever action varieties are limited to hugher soldiers ro prevent proliferation so most commoners and lower soldiers use modernised bows and crossbows with firearms being traded in the black markets and looted from trains, same with automobiles. Machine guns also exist but must be attached to legs or a vehicle because they are heavy. Knights with plate armour could be transported by trains or airships and lead landships on the ground decorated with army, clan or house colors, symbols and banners/standards.
In general, these cultures may believe certain new technologies could be helpful while others are unnecessary and may also take a stance similar to Japan where modern technology should help support traditional cultures. These cultures seem to need two separate versions of the last pillar because they are traditional in some ways and progressive in other ways without these two directly conflicting.
After noting several times what a pitfall this can be if you go into too many details when not needed, I would have expected you mention the one factor that can make all this easier. Religion. If gods exist, if there is a pantheon, some of these pillars might by universal in the entire world and partially in place because of religion. Although you should limit yourself to a small pantheon or a few singular deities, not this massive number of deities Dungeon & Dragons has.
There will be a podcast specifically on religion and the role it plays, later.
In my world there are two principle cultures at play, the empire and its vasile territory, the hills. The empire is very hierarchical, and religious orders have high status. In the hills different ocupations have their own organization, and authority is based on the situation. In both ,magic outside of the church is taboo because they fear unchecked magic could destroy the world. The main characters are both holy warriors, one is a holy knight serving the impetial church, the other is a hills shaman who joined the imperial army. When they go to the hills, the shaman is sent away from the war council because he's not part of the hills warrior society, and it's assumed that he's trying to have both authorities. The holy knight is allowed because he has imperial rank.
I also think you could mix social norms in bureaucracy someone's idiot kid shows it to work in the bathing suit but you can't fire him because his dad controls shipping licenses
100% And that kind of norms affected by hierarchy makes for a great source of tension.
If we are talking about games and fantasy I have scsntly clad women cause I like looking at beautiful women. Their is nothing wrong with it. Im also not going to put that much effort.
Lol, sometimes it sounds like you're saying "the booze" instead of taboos xD I am very sleepy.
The booze can indeed be the taboo :D
👍🏻
Honestly, I think many things said in here are false dychotomies.