The program was still going strong when I was at Vance in 1978 (Class 79-02). I too had a DO ride with a solo student in another flight that could not find the base coming back from the areas. Once we got in the pattern, he could not reach the runway and was sent around by the RSU twice and now we are getting low on fuel (about 600 lbs remaining if I remember correctly). I took a shot to get the plane close from the back seat and in fact made the runway, a miracle in itself from the back seat. Still, I enjoyed the program as a student pilot, but as they say - Ignorance is bliss.
I was an Air Traffic Controller/ Watch Supervisor in the RAPCON from 1977 to 1981. There were several incidents involving T-38 and T37's mishaps that occurred while stationed at Vance. I enjoyed my career at Vance, and several other ATC Command Bases in my 24 years of service. An interesting and dynamic story told here.
Hi Ron, I graduated UPT at Columbus in 82. No dynamic duo program at that time. I truly enjoyed my solo T-38 flights. My lack of experience was sufficient, did not need to multiply that times two! Great story as usual.
Ron, I was going through the helo/fixed wing conversion course at Sheppard and was in the T-38 phase of training in the summer of 78. We had that program also but if I remember correctly we just called it a "Buddy Ride". I enjoyed them both from the front and the back seats. We only had one mishap while I was there....the one where the 38 lost a wing.
Been there, almost done that. Back in the 70's a newby from UPT on transition ride at Holloman kept bouncing the aircraft on touch and go's. I took it and demo'd a proper flare at our runway altitude. Newby tries again and bounces again. This time a severe microburst from a storm nearby rocked us over about 60 degrees at the top of this bounce. I remember the sound of that wind force all of a sudden. Of course he was at idle but I don't know how much airspeed we had already bled off. I exclalimed "Oh S*it" and threw the trottles to mil, but instantly knew that we were probably not going to fly our way out of this. It became a situation where all I wanted to do was prevent us from flipping the aircraft over the runway by trying to fly it up and away. Even though he had full left stick input, we had no aileron control at that point. I just put my hands on the stick to prevent him from trying to pull up and fly out of the stall by increasing AOA even more (a death sentence in my mind). Rocked up on one wing, we hung there for what seemed about 3-4 seconds. As we slowly slid down to the runway at mil power, then we touched one wingtip on the runway surface, and the aircraft slammed over due to his full left stick. My helmet bounced off the back seat canopy with a tremendous force. We slammed on the other wingtip on the runway within milliseconds which broke his grip and we settled onto the landing gear for a normal rollout. I still have that wingtip in my garage, the lifesaver.
Another great story - thanks. I was a T-37 IP at Laughlin in the late 70s and know why the program was was taken out of the syllabus.They were called "Dynamic Duo" rides at the time (some people replaced "Duo" with the name of a female personal pleasure device). A weak student who had problems maintaining orientation when it was hazy was sent out solo on just such a day, and he had an allied (foreign) military student in the back seat. The accident board estimated the aircraft hit the ground at about 800 knots after the pilot attempted a barrel roll. The front seater didn't attempt ejection but the back seater did (If you have a weak stomach don't read the next part.) The back seater's lap belt broke at the buckle because of the extremely high speed, and the V-shaped shoulder straps decapitated him. The accident board concluded this was a case of supervisory error. The Dynamic Duo ride program ended shortly thereafter.
There are very few open seats ever designed to handle a 600+, let alone 800kt ejections so while it is a sad story the loss of the second student is not a surprise. The injuries from flail are hard for people to comprehend so I tend to explain by saying that an ejection at 600kts- effectively the speed of sound- is the equivalent of about a force 10-15 hurricane. When people think about how debris rips through cinderblock walls it makes a bit more sense to them. Modern seats like the Martin-Baker Mk 16 and 18 and the ACES 5 include features to minimize flail injuries.
@@theejectionsite1038 Mover had someone on his channel who ejected from an F-16 around 600 kn going nearly straight down ... ... with 0.5s to spare. He spent quite some time at the hospital for a deep overhaul
I was in high school durring years of 78-82 and i recall several crashes involving t38 an t 37 aircraft.always a sad thing to read the piolet was injured or worse.fyi went in navy few yrs later
I was on an Air Midwest flight from Wichita to Phoenix with a dozen Boeing mechanics and a QA inspector about 1988. Someone up front attempted to take the 737 off from 19L with the right engine at idle. That did not go well and the rest of the flight got worse. Thanks Ron.
I remember a T-38 flight from Moody in the 1960s, when two IPs went cross-country to Texas with a stop at England AFB in Louisiana. On start-up at England, one of the engines failed to start, and since they didn't want to miss what awaited them in Texas, thought that, with 9000 feet available, they'd be able to attempt a single-engine takeoff and, if acceleration were adequate, take off and restart in flight. And they successfully got airborne! But in raising their gear, they forgot that the T-38 gear-raising process begins with opening the gear doors which close when the gear are extended. This process gave them a personal introduction to the effect of interference drag as the aircraft returned to the runway, sliding safely to a stop, not just for the aircraft, but also (I presume, but do not know) for their flying careers. I understand that this accident led to the procedure to add 10 knots to takeoff speed for emergency gear retraction following engine failure on takeoff.
I know that feeling of wanting to reel back the last few seconds 🤪😈 - a few times things could even have turned out lethal for me 😱 - but I have a very motivated guardian angel 😅😇
If the front student pilot jumped over the side with the engines still screaming at full thrust, it could have got a whole lot messier at that point. Imagine being near the engine inlet with air being sucked in at whatever rate it was. The fire fighters, too, would have had to be very mindful of that situation as well when they approached the aircraft.
I was at Vance when this happened. As I remember it, the pilot flying had to be essentially finished with the program and the guy in the back was not supposed to do any flying.
I don't recall that we had this "dynamic observer" program in 69-05. Could have been fun, though. I did so many stupid stunts/mistakes in pilot training that I could have been kicked out. But, there was a war on, and the AF needed live bodies, I suppose. Anyway, I did learn what it was all about.
There was at least one fatal landing mishap where the T-38 started “dancing” from one main gear to the other. The student failed to fly it off and try again. The aircraft wound up inverted, grinding down to about shoulder height.
Interesting story per usual. During the program could the backseater request, "My aircraft" if they saw something they thought could be corrected or was that forbidden?
I would have punched out as soon as I saw the landing gear light come on before going to mil power. The gear switch on the strut probably tripped as soon as the power spooled up.
After I posted this, the back seater called me and we had a great talk/reminiscence! That is the really fun part of this channel for me! He said the front seater got a C-130 but washed out of training in Little Rock and got an FEB (Flight Evaluation Board). That usually means he was stripped of his wings for failure to demonstrate flying ability. Don't know what happened after that to him.
@@ronrogers Thanks for following up, Ron. Listening to your story, I figured "failure to demonstrate flying ability" occurred when the front seat student raised the gear handle while the plane was still on the ground and with throttles in idle, and then a few moments later when he egressed the plane while engines were still in full burner. I wondered if he was washed out at that point, but apparently not.
@@ronrogers Interesting. Thank you for the info. My data came from a fighter pilot upload. If memory serves ...after 3 ejections the doctors told him his spine had compressed too much and would be dangerous for him to do it again...
@@ronrogers no! I'm sure you are. It's the F106 that got into a flat spin and the pilot couldn't recover so he punched out and as he was coming down in the chute, he watched as the plane recovered itself and gently landed in a farmers field without him. They apparently went out lifted it up put the gear down, towed it back to base, and after a little body work it was back flying.
I think I hold the record for the longest student solo in a T38 ever recorded. 1.8 hours and landed with normal fuel. Of course, a lost airplane search had been initiated.
Couldn’t the back seat student say ‘I’ve got control’ or ‘I’ve got the stick ?’ or the events were too far degraded ? I mean the front seater did land.
The program was still going strong when I was at Vance in 1978 (Class 79-02). I too had a DO ride with a solo student in another flight that could not find the base coming back from the areas. Once we got in the pattern, he could not reach the runway and was sent around by the RSU twice and now we are getting low on fuel (about 600 lbs remaining if I remember correctly). I took a shot to get the plane close from the back seat and in fact made the runway, a miracle in itself from the back seat. Still, I enjoyed the program as a student pilot, but as they say - Ignorance is bliss.
I was an Air Traffic Controller/ Watch Supervisor in the RAPCON from 1977 to 1981. There were several incidents involving T-38 and T37's mishaps that occurred while stationed at Vance. I enjoyed my career at Vance, and several other ATC Command Bases in my 24 years of service. An interesting and dynamic story told here.
Hi Ron, I graduated UPT at Columbus in 82. No dynamic duo program at that time. I truly enjoyed my solo T-38 flights. My lack of experience was sufficient, did not need to multiply that times two! Great story as usual.
The only thing more dangerous that two student pilots in one aircraft is two instructors in one aircraft.
Or two airline captains!
😂
i was C-130 crew for 24 years. One of times i nearly died it was an all Stan/eval crew !
Ron, I was going through the helo/fixed wing conversion course at Sheppard and was in the T-38 phase of training in the summer of 78. We had that program also but if I remember correctly we just called it a "Buddy Ride". I enjoyed them both from the front and the back seats. We only had one mishap while I was there....the one where the 38 lost a wing.
Been there, almost done that. Back in the 70's a newby from UPT on transition ride at Holloman kept bouncing the aircraft on touch and go's. I took it and demo'd a proper flare at our runway altitude. Newby tries again and bounces again. This time a severe microburst from a storm nearby rocked us over about 60 degrees at the top of this bounce. I remember the sound of that wind force all of a sudden. Of course he was at idle but I don't know how much airspeed we had already bled off. I exclalimed "Oh S*it" and threw the trottles to mil, but instantly knew that we were probably not going to fly our way out of this. It became a situation where all I wanted to do was prevent us from flipping the aircraft over the runway by trying to fly it up and away. Even though he had full left stick input, we had no aileron control at that point. I just put my hands on the stick to prevent him from trying to pull up and fly out of the stall by increasing AOA even more (a death sentence in my mind). Rocked up on one wing, we hung there for what seemed about 3-4 seconds. As we slowly slid down to the runway at mil power, then we touched one wingtip on the runway surface, and the aircraft slammed over due to his full left stick. My helmet bounced off the back seat canopy with a tremendous force. We slammed on the other wingtip on the runway within milliseconds which broke his grip and we settled onto the landing gear for a normal rollout. I still have that wingtip in my garage, the lifesaver.
Another great story - thanks.
I was a T-37 IP at Laughlin in the late 70s and know why the program was was taken out of the syllabus.They were called "Dynamic Duo" rides at the time (some people replaced "Duo" with the name of a female personal pleasure device). A weak student who had problems maintaining orientation when it was hazy was sent out solo on just such a day, and he had an allied (foreign) military student in the back seat. The accident board estimated the aircraft hit the ground at about 800 knots after the pilot attempted a barrel roll. The front seater didn't attempt ejection but the back seater did (If you have a weak stomach don't read the next part.) The back seater's lap belt broke at the buckle because of the extremely high speed, and the V-shaped shoulder straps decapitated him.
The accident board concluded this was a case of supervisory error. The Dynamic Duo ride program ended shortly thereafter.
There are very few open seats ever designed to handle a 600+, let alone 800kt ejections so while it is a sad story the loss of the second student is not a surprise. The injuries from flail are hard for people to comprehend so I tend to explain by saying that an ejection at 600kts- effectively the speed of sound- is the equivalent of about a force 10-15 hurricane. When people think about how debris rips through cinderblock walls it makes a bit more sense to them. Modern seats like the Martin-Baker Mk 16 and 18 and the ACES 5 include features to minimize flail injuries.
@@theejectionsite1038 Mover had someone on his channel who ejected from an F-16 around 600 kn going nearly straight down ...
... with 0.5s to spare.
He spent quite some time at the hospital for a deep overhaul
I was in high school durring years of 78-82 and i recall several crashes involving t38 an t 37 aircraft.always a sad thing to read the piolet was injured or worse.fyi went in navy few yrs later
Interesting story. In all groups of people you have some kind of bell curve of ability.
Finally caught you in the morning. 👍
Thanks for coming
I was on an Air Midwest flight from Wichita to Phoenix with a dozen Boeing mechanics and a QA inspector about 1988. Someone up front attempted to take the 737 off from 19L with the right engine at idle. That did not go well and the rest of the flight got worse. Thanks Ron.
Thanks Ron!
Great story! Thanks.
Glad you enjoyed it!
Captain Ron, ya have any F4 stories, im sure you do!! Beautiful planes the f4 and t38.
Let me see what I can put together.
Ron, my slowest touchdown in the T-38A at Ewards AFB was 118 KIAS. I had 600 lbs of fuel on my full stop that day.
Interesting. Thanks for sharing that one!
Thanks for watching!
I remember a T-38 flight from Moody in the 1960s, when two IPs went cross-country to Texas with a stop at England AFB in Louisiana. On start-up at England, one of the engines failed to start, and since they didn't want to miss what awaited them in Texas, thought that, with 9000 feet available, they'd be able to attempt a single-engine takeoff and, if acceleration were adequate, take off and restart in flight. And they successfully got airborne! But in raising their gear, they forgot that the T-38 gear-raising process begins with opening the gear doors which close when the gear are extended. This process gave them a personal introduction to the effect of interference drag as the aircraft returned to the runway, sliding safely to a stop, not just for the aircraft, but also (I presume, but do not know) for their flying careers. I understand that this accident led to the procedure to add 10 knots to takeoff speed for emergency gear retraction following engine failure on takeoff.
I remember that accident very well!
I know that feeling of wanting to reel back the last few seconds 🤪😈 - a few times things could even have turned out lethal for me 😱 - but I have a very motivated guardian angel 😅😇
Low time pilots in High performance aircraft...What could go wrong?
That program was still going on at Laughlin in October 1980.
Man, even as another student, I’d be nervous in the back seat if a student in the front seat !
It's Fun to Fly! Everything will kill you, so choose something Fun! ✈
I have that poster in my hanger!
If the front student pilot jumped over the side with the engines still screaming at full thrust, it could have got a whole lot messier at that point. Imagine being near the engine inlet with air being sucked in at whatever rate it was. The fire fighters, too, would have had to be very mindful of that situation as well when they approached the aircraft.
Ron, I was the back seater! My name is Steve B. I would like to discuss this with you further. Let me know how we can join up.
Send me an email at ron777300@gmail.com and I can give you phone info.
I was at Vance when this happened. As I remember it, the pilot flying had to be essentially finished with the program and the guy in the back was not supposed to do any flying.
That is how I remember it also.
That is correct. In fact, I was explicitly told not to touch anything during the ride. BTW, this was the first DO ride at Vance.
An interesting story. To this non-aviator, sounds like he did make a good decision, but he was also very lucky that day.
I don't recall that we had this "dynamic observer" program in 69-05. Could have been fun, though. I did so many stupid stunts/mistakes in pilot training that I could have been kicked out. But, there was a war on, and the AF needed live bodies, I suppose. Anyway, I did learn what it was all about.
I was Class 74-05, this was the first DO ride at Vance.
Two instructors together is worse
The coefficient of dirt!
that got me too!
There was at least one fatal landing mishap where the T-38 started “dancing” from one main gear to the other. The student failed to fly it off and try again. The aircraft wound up inverted, grinding down to about shoulder height.
Interesting story per usual. During the program could the backseater request, "My aircraft" if they saw something they thought could be corrected or was that forbidden?
Not really, he was just supposed to observe.
@@ronrogers Obviously, this guy observed a fail.
NO! I was forbidden to touch ANYTHING!
I would have punched out as soon as I saw the landing gear light come on before going to mil power. The gear switch on the strut probably tripped as soon as the power spooled up.
Ron, do you have any idea what happened to the front seat student pilot?
After I posted this, the back seater called me and we had a great talk/reminiscence! That is the really fun part of this channel for me! He said the front seater got a C-130 but washed out of training in Little Rock and got an FEB (Flight Evaluation Board). That usually means he was stripped of his wings for failure to demonstrate flying ability. Don't know what happened after that to him.
@@ronrogers Thanks for following up, Ron. Listening to your story, I figured "failure to demonstrate flying ability" occurred when the front seat student raised the gear handle while the plane was still on the ground and with throttles in idle, and then a few moments later when he egressed the plane while engines were still in full burner. I wondered if he was washed out at that point, but apparently not.
I understand the spine can handle only a few of those seat ejections ... and then you get grounded for the duration until ETS?
Think that depends upon the individual. I know many pilots who have had multiple exceptions and still continue to fly.
@@ronrogers Interesting. Thank you for the info. My data came from a fighter pilot upload. If memory serves ...after 3 ejections the doctors told him his spine had compressed too much and would be dangerous for him to do it again...
I had every bone in my body x-rayed. No damage, I was extremely fortunate!
@@hiflier7197 Outstanding. Very glad for the positive outcome. Thank you for sharing.
Why the picture with Randy Babbitt at the end of all these videos? As I recall, he was not even an active airline pilot when acting as ALPA president.
That is a picture of me and my wife with David Hartman getting the best paper of the year award From the Society of Experimental Test Pilots.
@@ronrogers sorry. He looked like Randy. Please accept my apologies.
No problem. Took a minute for me to figure out who you were talking about!
I don't know why this popped in my head - maybe it was the ejection pic and 1970's - but the cornfield bomber story might be a fun one to cover.
Not familiar with that one.
@@ronrogers no! I'm sure you are. It's the F106 that got into a flat spin and the pilot couldn't recover so he punched out and as he was coming down in the chute, he watched as the plane recovered itself and gently landed in a farmers field without him. They apparently went out lifted it up put the gear down, towed it back to base, and after a little body work it was back flying.
You are correct! Thanks!
@@GlutenEruption The Danish air force had something similar happen with a Draken
That f-106 is on display at the museum.
I think I hold the record for the longest student solo in a T38 ever recorded. 1.8 hours and landed with normal fuel. Of course, a lost airplane search had been initiated.
Well, that is impressive!
Want the full explanation?
Couldn’t the back seat student say ‘I’ve got control’ or ‘I’ve got the stick ?’ or the events were too far degraded ? I mean the front seater did land.
Talked to the back seater just yesterday. He was told not to touch anything!
What a stupid program. Glad I graduated in the 70-07 class at Randolph.