I can only imagine how much patience and frustration tolerance you must have when developing such an awesome product and then reading the countless "make the helix sound less digital" or "it doesnt sound like a real amp" posts on reddit, haha. keep on the good work
This video is gold! I'm a bassist and I've finally discovered why all the stock cab sims in the Helix sound too dark and "cloudy", you just have to crank the level to max (which I think is +6 dB for every cab) and they finally clear and defined! Of course you have also to play with hi and lo cut, but to crank the level up is a game changer. Thank you man!!
I very recently learned to adjust the tone knob on your guitar based on this principle. Don't start with the tone all the way up and then expect to like any of the tone turned down. Instead, first play with the tone all the way down, and gradually turn it up without looking at the knob until you like the sound. It's surprising where you end up (5.5 on the neck and 6.5 on the middle on my HSH Strat (Twin Rail, Single, Twin Rail) for me at the moment).
This is an absolutely fantastic video. I'm usually quite skeptical of new RUclips channels that want to analyze something with a helix, because honestly what hasn't been done before? but really, I'm glad I clicked it, and you just earned yourself a subscription. I love the way you discuss things on a scientific level, and don't just do the compressortron 3000 thing.
People also definitely listen with their eyes. A guitar that is neon-green will sound more "metal", a white guitar will sound sparkling-bright, a black guitar will sound dark... It's so true... Plus I love the fact when people get visibly disappointed when they realize that somebody is playing a Squier as opposed to Fender... all of a sudden it sounds "cheaper". lol
And in the digital world, it also applies to UI. Many people think digital stuff sounds better when they're interacting with an item that looks like the product it's supposed to represent rather than just a list of settings/sliders.
Good video, congrats. It's also worth mentioning that most musicians have some degree of hearing loss all across the spectrum; many have tinnitus and other conditions. Some are so deaf that it's a big mystery how they can still hear anything at all. Any time I see a heated conversation about tone, how this or that sounds etc, between musicians and audio people, unless its someone who really takes care of their hearing or a very seasoned engineer, I think to myself "bunch of deaf dogs, you ain't hearing shit". Many times myself included. I have completely given up any ambition to accurately describe sounds. I just go like "yes, sounds like a guitar".
@@InGrindWeCrust2010 Me too. I've done several tests, my hearing loss is accurately described. Years and years of loud guitar, loud bands in shitty places, with amps pointing at my head and nonsensical drummers. You know, like most youngsters, I thought "I dont care, loud is cool, turn it up, dude, thats how its supposed to be". Well, some of us learn a little late that this is NOT the way its supposed to be. I'm glad to still have a reasonably good hearing, but some stuff I can't hear.
Too true. Apart from that I'm old school thank God...didn't understand a word of it..much. I never really got into all this stuff,my amps had a bit of EQ and sometimes a reverb..sometimes less EQ sometimes a bit more. I twiddled 'til it sounded OK then there's the knobs on the guitar as well..more twiddlin'. Sometimes I'd plug into someone else's amp...a twiddle here and there and that'll do for me. Maybe a little finer twiddlin' later. If I could be bothered. Then add a pedal or two..or three.Of which there were no where near as many of those damn things as there are now..Jeeze. Pedals came..and went..some stayed..and some of those went..some didn't. So for me ..What's an helix? What's it do? Has it got knobs n buttons or sliders n knobs n buttons..on a computer screen? Or what? I wouldn't know what to do with it if you gave me one...which I'd rather you didn't. So if I twiddle a few knobs the sound changes until I likes it..or it sounds good enough to me. Then the knobs stay put. More or less. On an amp NOT a ruddy PC.. And I suppose it costs a second mortgage as well...usually do. Old school means...My first "amp" ? I plugged into me record player...remember those? .No? Well I bought the guitar thingy but didn't have enough bread for an amp as well..Ah Bread....All nostalgic now. What the hell will someone come up with next..The A.I.Amp..? Just tell it what to do and it'll do it all by itself..? Yeah probably. Maybe it'll tilt n swivel 'til you say stop..I like that. Or maybe you could play your fav guitar god and it'll copy the tone for ya..? Just remember my 20%...well stuff does cost more these days...bugger 10%. Or.. this is good...the virtual cloud amp...eh...yeah..No.? Now if you're younger..or similar age to Moi..and you're into all this tech that's fine..Power to ya elbow. To me it's all gobbledegook...and I cannot be bothered to try figurin' it all out to be honest. Apart from that it makes me ears go all screamy.. One thing I do like doin' though is twiddlin' pitches..do I have to tune to 440 Hz..? Nope. Bought a new acoustic the other month..sounded good...sounds better at 398 though..Tightens it up a bit..not quite so bright but not too dark either. well it is made with them there tone woods. Some of my electrics sound nicer when I twiddles with that as well. Them there pick ups might like a slightly different pitch. And maybe less amp twiddlin..maybe. Your gonna try that now ain't ya..or not. I started doing that years ago when I bought a tuner that had that function built in..couldn't resist.
U are a wizard man! One of the best audio related content i have come across on RUclips in so long and the way u explain is so engaging. Congrats and please keep doing more content 👏🏻 🍻
Awesome. This video should pop up right out of the box when you unbox your new Helix. BTW the bit about Cabs and IR is true. Everybody is shunning the L6 Stock Cabs. Yet if you dial them in right they sound just as good as IR. Sometimes even better. It is what you make out of it. Do some cuts (Thank L6 they are on by default), choose the right mic for the right style (keep experiments for later), play around with the distance (as it can drastically alter your tone when you use e.g. the Ribbon 121) and finally dial in the volume to match the IR level. Suddenly there is no good or bad. Just different.
Most excellent points, all of them! Extending this topic even further, one trick many people who mix their own songs don't know is that the overall balance of all the tracks is easier to understand if the monitor volume is extremely *LOW* (precisely for all the issues outlined in the video). At that very low volume it becomes very obvious if there are instruments that really stick out too much (typical rascals: high hats, snare, cymbals) in the arrangement, or sound too dull, etc.
For sure! That's a great way to really get a handle on the transients in your mix and figure out which elements are really sticking out (for better or worse).
Hey, thanks! I’d really like to, I’ve just been so busy between touring, mix gigs, Line 6 work, and having a kid that I just haven’t been able find the time. I’m hoping I might be able to do some more stuff in the future, but it’s pretty indeterminate.
Jesus christ this right here is gold information the hardest part is to have this in the back of you mind when dialing in tones, and this also explains why it is so important to take regular breaks when mixing even if its hard to rip yourself from the desktop keep it up man
Ha-ha! Thanks for reminding me of the Fletcher Munson Curves! When I studied acoustics at the university I was aware of their meaning in practice. Since then as I am working in the automotive development side of engineering I completely forget about them. :D This was a super video which can push to a higher level the debate of the modelling devices. ...or on the contrary, givesa solid base of the comparisons.
John Chordy mentioned you on his Channel, so I came over to check out a video. Glad I did. Good content. I'm not interested in my ears fooling me. Thanks
Large concerts turn the volume up through the show to counter that. I noticed that as a young boy at Tom Petty concerts. I always brought earplugs but never needed them until later in the show.
Roger Mayer has said many times that Hendrix would cycle through various fuzzes and wahs when setting up for a show and often come back to one he'd discarded a few minutes before...which he thought he hadn't tried yet...as sounding better than all the others.
I'm currently in a semi tone-chasing phase right now and I cannot express how grateful I am watching this video. This is invaluable information! Being an ex-audiophile kinda helped me with the earlier comparisons in an unusual way. After getting tired of buying "snake oil" I just started to focus whether if there is a considerable difference in sound and whether I like it or not. I started to over-analyze audio less.
Just went back to listen to a mix I did a few days ago... holy low end hell lmao I buried myself into it for hours without a break and apparently kept milking more bass out as my ears fatigued.
Nothing new or profound here, but you covered this in a contemporary and efficient fashion, and the demos were subtle enough to be tricky - and make your point! Nicely done! I agree with the person below about folks auditioning stereo/AV equipment. Level "jacking" is both common and insidious when trying to do A/B comparisons!
Hands down, fantastic hints here! and also helping me to save time watching video. After looking this, I was presented a video of a guy telling how to make an Iron Maiden'esq preset. He loaded an amp, Chanel volume ALL THE WAY UP, then Stock Cab, Level up again... then my mind went to a guy with cowboy hat and pink hair, and I've run away from it XD. Thanks for it!!!! I' sharing as much as I can
Fantastic video! I remember reading the Mixing Engineers Handbook and the major take away for me was that sounds are relative, and louder sounds better.
This is why many people think they prefer a boosted amp. It's making the tone louder and brighter... turning the boost off then makes the amps sound "worse".
Hi, for the phenomena of not finding the sound so lound after the first track, there is a purely physiologic part. The stapedius muscle and the tensor tempani muscles are able to deampened the sounds.
4:05 not just your brain, you can physically increase the impedance of the transmission of soundwaves through your middle ear bones, through the stapedius muscle! a small fraction of people can even do this at will! they have a built in volume knob! for most people, it has a latency of about 100ms. it also activates about 100ms before you start talking, so you don't hear your own voice as loud, and that's why you don't hurt your own ears if you're yelling. ears are cool.
I got it right both times lol. First thought was it sounded the same, second time I thought the amp was louder lol. I think I've played around with tones too much to fall for placebo.
It's true! And honestly, this is part of the trickery. In the first example I played, notice how I started hitting the strings hard but ended on a quieter chord? When this loops around to the second part of the example, even though the tone is identical, it *seems* like there's something different. Another thing you have to account for in comparisons - were the performances different in a way that could affect the sound? In some cases, no, but if a player's technique is loose and they do something like change the angle of the their picking, that will ABSOLUTELY affect the tone and could be wrongly attributed to the gear being demoed.
I think most guy experienced with audio world know a thing or two about Fletcher-Munson effects. That's why I had difficulties to audition IRs from different vendors...sometimes you need to level match or it wouldn't sound right
Some level matching tutorial in the near future? There are many on youtube, but I see you have a working solution and by simply adapting that I would save the experimental costs.
Hmm, I don't really even know what that would look like. It's more of an art than a science, unfortunately. I basically just go back and forth while boosting/cutting the level of one until it "clicks" into place. You have to build up a bit of experience to lean on and it can still be tricky, especially if the frequency balance between the two sounds is very different. It can get to the point where 0.1dB make a difference. But I don't know that there's any reliable process for it other than just trying to do it a bunch. In most cases, just getting into the ballpark is good enough.
THANK YOU FOR DOING THIS VIDEO! In relation to guitar amp modeling, this is the best video on youtube and a must-watch to keep people from blindly gear hopping all the time. (although I guess that does keep the economy afloat) I wanted to do something similar but you did it better...Kudos! For me personally, I don't judge a modeler by how well it does through monitors but rather how it does through an actual guitar cab (with cab modeling disabled). In other words, I judge by the AITR tone and feel .... and here, I'm always stunned at how accurate the Helix amp modeling is with the latest models. (sometimes input pad needs to be engaged). I don't get all the attempts to replicate tone and feel from a 12" guitar speaker with its inertia and the amount of air that it moves through a 4" full-range monitor? Yes monitors work for 'recorded tones' but not for AITR - which should be the basis for judging how good the AMP model is. Some of the other modelers provide more 'compression' (which is what people inevitably mean when they talk about feel) but in my estimation, the Helix is actually the most accurate modeler at the moment tone and feel-wise. It really makes no sense to own the actual amp anymore.
I was actually thinking I might actually do a video on sag modeling (the compression you're referring to), since that seems to be where really Helix handles things differently compared to others in the space right now.
@@thebishopgame That would be great! If you listen to this blind test that was just posted (JCM 800) - ruclips.net/video/tlF4yZN0S14/видео.html&feature=emb_logo Model B appears to have extra compression and give (almost 'splatty' sounding compared to the others). Based on that, I guessed Fractal because I do think their models have extra compression, which, depending on the style of music that you play, can equate to 'better' feel. Yes a sag comparison would really be great but not sure how you would demonstrate that over youtube video ... unless you're doing something like Detailed_Ingrid (Trainwreck Express) which is a very touch sensitive model and greatly affected by the sag control
@@onefiveeights152 Ah, good ole Jon. Actually, that B tone is so much brighter than the others I can't even begin to analyze whether I think it's saggier than the others, heh.
@@iainpople8986 Based on my experiences tonematching Helix to other products, Helix tends to model sag both more realistically and more noticeably than other products, while other either heavily idealize their power amps, model sag with simple compression, or don't bother with it at all. This is for better or worse, I'd say that it makes the amp behavior more realistic, but it actually might not be behavior that users want, despite claims to the contrary. By default, Helix's amps tend to be saggier than other companies - I had to turn it down to zero in most cases with both Neural DSP and Strymon Iridium tonematches, and given the popularity of both, that makes me heavily question what people actually mean when they say they want "real" sounding amps.
Highly appreciate this video! Can we match levels on different Helix settings without the external analyzer or computer? In the #context of Helix Floor?
You shouldn’t use an analyzer anyway, because of the same stuff I talked about in the video. Low frequencies will frequently register higher on an analyzed while sounding quieter for example. That said, the Helix output block does have a level meter - between that and your ears you should absolutely be able to level presets on the unit. Try to do it in context though, while playing with your band - it’ll be different then when on your own.
Great stuff here. Question - how would you feel with a bass comparison? I ask because frequency and levels tend to be a bit more broad when looking at a comparison like this. My ears tricked me for years but I cracked it a while back, but I don't have the equipment to do a test like this.
As in comparing bass guitar tones? It’s the same approach. I think it’s to a lesser extent but we can get tricky by low end the same way we can with high end. I’ve definitely ended up continuously bumping up the low end until there was too much.
I like these kind of nerdy vids! 👌 Great stuff, Igor! These make you sound better, not the honky tonk comparison videos that just take the focus away from what really counts. Btw, I love my Helix 😜
I was not fooled. For the first clip I heard no difference. For the second clip I heard no difference other than a slight change in volume. And your explanation of the Fletcher-Munson curve also explains why Mesa/Boogie Mark series amps without EQ are very midrangey at low volume but at high volume they sound much more balanced. And why as you get louder with a Mesa amp with EQ, the less dramatic the EQ curve will be.
I can proudly say I caught the "same audio twice" trick, but I also have a history of thinking most amps sound kinda the same by category and most people hear whatever they want to hear in those demos.
@@raymondmann8501 Same here sort of... I'm just a cynicsl old git. If I really don't hear a difference, I'll call BS... and in my experience, most guitarers are bullsh*tters, present company excepted.
So how can we figure out how bright a tone 'should' be? Can we only test it in a full mix? Should we reference it to some dark market professional guitar stems?
Yeah, this is where it gets tricky, isn't it? For a final answer, yes, you *have* to check it in context. Anything else is an educated guess at best. The other problem is that it's a moving target - a tone that sounds perfectly fine in one song section might not work any more as soon as the drummer starts going HAM on the cymbals, or a big buzzy synth comes in. This is one of the things that's really important when mixing songs - being able to balances all those elements and continuously adjust as needed. For my part, in live shows, I will generally have a preset per song and break the different sections out into snapshots to make adjustments as needed for stuff like that. Of course, I have to dial it in at gig volume and with the band playing, or it's not guaranteed to work.
Ok. I didn't hear a difference in the first. The second had no discernible difference (in tone, harmonics, etc.). Hmm. (Maybe I've listened carefully for too long?) But as the long defunct Stereo Review and others showed, one needs to do level adjusted, double blind ABX testing, not A B comparisons, for audio testing. I think they probably lost advertising money to magazines that didn't have engineers writing articles saying high dollar Monster Cable is indistinguishable from far less expensive 16 ga. zip chord, etc. (That was a write up from an audiophile club, but they had a lot of detailed engineering testing rather than marketing verbiage about 'definition.')
Haha cool video yeah we can be very fooled when we see/hear comparison between different gear. And i KNOW some make Helix sound worse by purpose ML Soundlab is one never trust that guy i cant believe i spent alot of money on his IR i never buy anything from that guy again. And thank you for mention Ola's video Beacuse that man doesn't know anything about making a fair comparison Especially if anything Helix is involved i don't know if he doesn it on purpose? Or if he simply dopesn't know how to dial in a tone in Helix? When he did a comparison video on a bunch of modeler units againt the Mesa MKIIC+ (Helix doesnt have a MKIIC+ so he had to use MKIV but that amnp is very close top MKIIC+) Ola didn't dial in the 5 band EQ on the Helix (maybe it's beacuse you need to go down in the drop down menu in the ampblock to see the 5 band EQ and it was even harder when Ola did the comparison in 2016 or 2017) ) in the ampblock to mimic the 5 band EQ setting he had on the real amp. And therefore Helix sounded very different compared to all other modeler units. (I know this as he shared the preset he used in the comparison) As soon as i dial in the 5 band EQ to mimic the setting he had on the real amp which i saw in the video Helix sounded much closer to the amp and all other modeler.
Great video. Question, did you level off the aftermarket IR with Ola's IR so that their peaks would be at the same volume or so that they would be at the same average volume? If the former, I don't know if that's a fair comparison given that it looks like Ola's had more dynamic range. But again... Could have just been my ears playing tricks on me!
Nah, that would just be normalization, not leveling. I matched by ear so they felt like they had the same overall volume. Ola’s actually didn’t have more dynamic range, he just wasn’t holding a chord like I did. The clip of his audio I grabbed had some riffing in it.
THIS COMMENT SOUNDS BETTER haha, maybe it doesn't work the same. I've always thought that people who have super loud and bright speaking voices have an unfair advantage in social situations, since the ear is drawn to those tones.
Impulse Response! Basically a cab sim. Lots of people have IRs up for sale that some people really like, great for getting an additional variety of cab sounds past what Helix (or any other modeler) provide on their own.
Maybe I was tricked and heard a little difference in the first examples, but to tell you the truth, I wasn't really loving any of those sounds and rather still stick to a good ol' well dialed tube amp. About the information on perceived sounds, I found it really interesting. Thanks for sharing
its funny that a whole industry just ignores these facts. quantum cryotreated digital gear isolation idiotism rules a million dollar industry of "high" end audio. its just miserable to see cable lifters and digital gear isolation stuff being sold for thousands... and then fake AB demoed of course. thanks for posting this! I am reposting it to 'audio' fools :D
I can only imagine how much patience and frustration tolerance you must have when developing such an awesome product and then reading the countless "make the helix sound less digital" or "it doesnt sound like a real amp" posts on reddit, haha. keep on the good work
I did sound for years and can remember several times I eq'd something only to realize the eq was bypassed... Great video!
That's why you give each band the old lord-alge twist before tweaking it to tune your ears into what you're changing.
@@CyberneticArgumentCreator Yeah, I've seen him do some stuff like that but what do you actually mean by that?
@@CyberneticArgumentCreator I’m also curious to know what it means
@@rafaelzengo5534 spike the frequency band by giving the knob a big twist to tune your ear to what sound you're adding or cutting
@@CyberneticArgumentCreator What if you have defective frequencies in your hearing?
But my IR goes to 11.
Great work, brotha.
But why not just make 10 louder?! 🤣
I'm sending this video to everyone I know.
This video is gold! I'm a bassist and I've finally discovered why all the stock cab sims in the Helix sound too dark and "cloudy", you just have to crank the level to max (which I think is +6 dB for every cab) and they finally clear and defined! Of course you have also to play with hi and lo cut, but to crank the level up is a game changer. Thank you man!!
I very recently learned to adjust the tone knob on your guitar based on this principle. Don't start with the tone all the way up and then expect to like any of the tone turned down. Instead, first play with the tone all the way down, and gradually turn it up without looking at the knob until you like the sound. It's surprising where you end up (5.5 on the neck and 6.5 on the middle on my HSH Strat (Twin Rail, Single, Twin Rail) for me at the moment).
That is the protocol for getting Eric's 'woman tone' by the way.
This is an absolutely fantastic video. I'm usually quite skeptical of new RUclips channels that want to analyze something with a helix, because honestly what hasn't been done before? but really, I'm glad I clicked it, and you just earned yourself a subscription. I love the way you discuss things on a scientific level, and don't just do the compressortron 3000 thing.
One of the best music related videos I have ever seen. So well done. Entertaining and educational. Wow! Well done.
People also definitely listen with their eyes. A guitar that is neon-green will sound more "metal", a white guitar will sound sparkling-bright, a black guitar will sound dark... It's so true... Plus I love the fact when people get visibly disappointed when they realize that somebody is playing a Squier as opposed to Fender... all of a sudden it sounds "cheaper". lol
And in the digital world, it also applies to UI. Many people think digital stuff sounds better when they're interacting with an item that looks like the product it's supposed to represent rather than just a list of settings/sliders.
Good video, congrats. It's also worth mentioning that most musicians have some degree of hearing loss all across the spectrum; many have tinnitus and other conditions. Some are so deaf that it's a big mystery how they can still hear anything at all. Any time I see a heated conversation about tone, how this or that sounds etc, between musicians and audio people, unless its someone who really takes care of their hearing or a very seasoned engineer, I think to myself "bunch of deaf dogs, you ain't hearing shit". Many times myself included. I have completely given up any ambition to accurately describe sounds. I just go like "yes, sounds like a guitar".
Great point. I'm sure I'm missing a lot of frequencies, and it's different in each ear.
@@InGrindWeCrust2010 Me too. I've done several tests, my hearing loss is accurately described. Years and years of loud guitar, loud bands in shitty places, with amps pointing at my head and nonsensical drummers. You know, like most youngsters, I thought "I dont care, loud is cool, turn it up, dude, thats how its supposed to be". Well, some of us learn a little late that this is NOT the way its supposed to be. I'm glad to still have a reasonably good hearing, but some stuff I can't hear.
Too true. Apart from that I'm old school thank God...didn't understand a word of it..much. I never really got into all this stuff,my amps had a bit of EQ and sometimes a reverb..sometimes less EQ sometimes a bit more. I twiddled 'til it sounded OK then there's the knobs on the guitar as well..more twiddlin'. Sometimes I'd plug into someone else's amp...a twiddle here and there and that'll do for me. Maybe a little finer twiddlin' later. If I could be bothered.
Then add a pedal or two..or three.Of which there were no where near as many of those damn things as there are now..Jeeze. Pedals came..and went..some stayed..and some of those went..some didn't.
So for me ..What's an helix? What's it do? Has it got knobs n buttons or sliders n knobs n buttons..on a computer screen? Or what? I wouldn't know what to do with it if you gave me one...which I'd rather you didn't.
So if I twiddle a few knobs the sound changes until I likes it..or it sounds good enough to me. Then the knobs stay put. More or less. On an amp NOT a ruddy PC..
And I suppose it costs a second mortgage as well...usually do.
Old school means...My first "amp" ? I plugged into me record player...remember those? .No? Well I bought the guitar thingy but didn't have enough bread for an amp as well..Ah Bread....All nostalgic now.
What the hell will someone come up with next..The A.I.Amp..? Just tell it what to do and it'll do it all by itself..?
Yeah probably. Maybe it'll tilt n swivel 'til you say stop..I like that. Or maybe you could play your fav guitar god and it'll copy the tone for ya..? Just remember my 20%...well stuff does cost more these days...bugger 10%.
Or.. this is good...the virtual cloud amp...eh...yeah..No.?
Now if you're younger..or similar age to Moi..and you're into all this tech that's fine..Power to ya elbow.
To me it's all gobbledegook...and I cannot be bothered to try figurin' it all out to be honest. Apart from that it makes me ears go all screamy..
One thing I do like doin' though is twiddlin' pitches..do I have to tune to 440 Hz..? Nope. Bought a new acoustic the other month..sounded good...sounds better at 398 though..Tightens it up a bit..not quite so bright but not too dark either. well it is made with them there tone woods. Some of my electrics sound nicer when I twiddles with that as well. Them there pick ups might like a slightly different pitch. And maybe less amp twiddlin..maybe.
Your gonna try that now ain't ya..or not. I started doing that years ago when I bought a tuner that had that function built in..couldn't resist.
This video should get extremely popular
U are a wizard man!
One of the best audio related content i have come across on RUclips in so long and the way u explain is so engaging.
Congrats and please keep doing more content 👏🏻 🍻
Awesome. This video should pop up right out of the box when you unbox your new Helix. BTW the bit about Cabs and IR is true. Everybody is shunning the L6 Stock Cabs. Yet if you dial them in right they sound just as good as IR. Sometimes even better. It is what you make out of it. Do some cuts (Thank L6 they are on by default), choose the right mic for the right style (keep experiments for later), play around with the distance (as it can drastically alter your tone when you use e.g. the Ribbon 121) and finally dial in the volume to match the IR level. Suddenly there is no good or bad. Just different.
Most excellent points, all of them! Extending this topic even further, one trick many people who mix their own songs don't know is that the overall balance of all the tracks is easier to understand if the monitor volume is extremely *LOW* (precisely for all the issues outlined in the video). At that very low volume it becomes very obvious if there are instruments that really stick out too much (typical rascals: high hats, snare, cymbals) in the arrangement, or sound too dull, etc.
For sure! That's a great way to really get a handle on the transients in your mix and figure out which elements are really sticking out (for better or worse).
Sharing this video is gonna save me so much time in future discussions.
Please come back to RUclips, I have just ran into your channel and I am amazed on how useful and fun is what you say!
Hey, thanks! I’d really like to, I’ve just been so busy between touring, mix gigs, Line 6 work, and having a kid that I just haven’t been able find the time. I’m hoping I might be able to do some more stuff in the future, but it’s pretty indeterminate.
@@thebishopgame if you do, I will celebrate that for sure!
Jesus christ this right here is gold information the hardest part is to have this in the back of you mind when dialing in tones, and this also explains why it is so important to take regular breaks when mixing even if its hard to rip yourself from the desktop
keep it up man
Ha-ha! Thanks for reminding me of the Fletcher Munson Curves! When I studied acoustics at the university I was aware of their meaning in practice. Since then as I am working in the automotive development side of engineering I completely forget about them. :D This was a super video which can push to a higher level the debate of the modelling devices. ...or on the contrary, givesa solid base of the comparisons.
John Chordy mentioned you on his Channel, so I came over to check out a video. Glad I did. Good content. I'm not interested in my ears fooling me. Thanks
This sort of videos definitely deserve more views
Large concerts turn the volume up through the show to counter that. I noticed that as a young boy at Tom Petty concerts. I always brought earplugs but never needed them until later in the show.
Roger Mayer has said many times that Hendrix would cycle through various fuzzes and wahs when setting up for a show and often come back to one he'd discarded a few minutes before...which he thought he hadn't tried yet...as sounding better than all the others.
John Wick knows his stuff. Great video!
Thank you for this video man, this is extremely important information! Applies 100% to bass tone too!
I'm currently in a semi tone-chasing phase right now and I cannot express how grateful I am watching this video. This is invaluable information!
Being an ex-audiophile kinda helped me with the earlier comparisons in an unusual way. After getting tired of buying "snake oil" I just started to focus whether if there is a considerable difference in sound and whether I like it or not. I started to over-analyze audio less.
In addition, when adjusting audio, take a break every hour to reset yer ears, and if you've got a cold, don't even bother.
Just went back to listen to a mix I did a few days ago... holy low end hell lmao
I buried myself into it for hours without a break and apparently kept milking more bass out as my ears fatigued.
I know absolutely nothing about what he is talking about, but could not stop watching.
Nothing new or profound here, but you covered this in a contemporary and efficient fashion, and the demos were subtle enough to be tricky - and make your point! Nicely done! I agree with the person below about folks auditioning stereo/AV equipment. Level "jacking" is both common and insidious when trying to do A/B comparisons!
Hands down, fantastic hints here! and also helping me to save time watching video. After looking this, I was presented a video of a guy telling how to make an Iron Maiden'esq preset. He loaded an amp, Chanel volume ALL THE WAY UP, then Stock Cab, Level up again... then my mind went to a guy with cowboy hat and pink hair, and I've run away from it XD. Thanks for it!!!! I' sharing as much as I can
Going back through all my tones now to maximize the volume and brightness, since that's what people prefer. :-p
Great points and demonstration. LOVE my HELIX! BTW, you totally got me with the first clip! Thanks for sharing and your work at Line6.
Fantastic video! I remember reading the Mixing Engineers Handbook and the major take away for me was that sounds are relative, and louder sounds better.
This is why many people think they prefer a boosted amp. It's making the tone louder and brighter... turning the boost off then makes the amps sound "worse".
More Helix videos! I definitely have enough time to watch them in this corona day and age😅😎
Keep posting please.. you're addictive!
this is a gem.thanks for this
Such a nice video dude! You have my sub and your personality of telling things is great for just watching about anything gear related :D
amazing stuff brother!
Great video,Igor!
This was fun to watch. Congrats Igor! 🔥
you sir are a Jedi~ made me finally buy a Helix too (line 6 give this man a bonus)
I keep trying to mind trick my manager into doing that but it doesn’t seem to be working
@@thebishopgame Line 6 confirmed to be run by Toydarians! keep up the great content man /m/
very very interesting...I'll start following you hoping to learn as much as I can
Hi, for the phenomena of not finding the sound so lound after the first track, there is a purely physiologic part. The stapedius muscle and the tensor tempani muscles are able to deampened the sounds.
that's why my tone sounds like shit to me when I'm sleepy or very tired, my brain's just not enjoying the moment.
Absolutely! Ear fatigue is also absolutely a real thing,, and your mental state will definitely affect the way you perceive a given sound.
This is just so spot on, thanks dude, you're a star!
4:05 not just your brain, you can physically increase the impedance of the transmission of soundwaves through your middle ear bones, through the stapedius muscle! a small fraction of people can even do this at will! they have a built in volume knob! for most people, it has a latency of about 100ms. it also activates about 100ms before you start talking, so you don't hear your own voice as loud, and that's why you don't hurt your own ears if you're yelling. ears are cool.
I liked the 1 dB louder sample ,which is expectable.
Excellent video Sir \m/
This is a really great and informative video, everyone that likes to make sound comparisons just has to be aware of the topics you mention here
AWESOME video!
Love the video, thanks for making this!
Brilliant stuff. Such an informed fresh breath of air in our guitar world of stale quasi-religious beliefs. Subbed instantly.
Dude you’re a scientist 👨🏻🔬 great info
Lovd the explanation! 😊 thank you. Subbed!!!
I got it right both times lol. First thought was it sounded the same, second time I thought the amp was louder lol. I think I've played around with tones too much to fall for placebo.
This is a great video! Thank you
Before you said on the begging that you lied I was like "I can't tell the difference at all. I must be tone deaf" :P :P
Awesome video
Great video Thanks. Just subbed
Great video! I learned a lot!
man with that tone and that guitar, you can make it go from dark to treble boosted just by hitting the strings harder to get more fret jingle
It's true! And honestly, this is part of the trickery.
In the first example I played, notice how I started hitting the strings hard but ended on a quieter chord? When this loops around to the second part of the example, even though the tone is identical, it *seems* like there's something different.
Another thing you have to account for in comparisons - were the performances different in a way that could affect the sound? In some cases, no, but if a player's technique is loose and they do something like change the angle of the their picking, that will ABSOLUTELY affect the tone and could be wrongly attributed to the gear being demoed.
@@thebishopgame I caught that! Sneaky bastard.
Dropping knowledge! 💪💪🤘🎶🤘
I think most guy experienced with audio world know a thing or two about Fletcher-Munson effects.
That's why I had difficulties to audition IRs from different vendors...sometimes you need to level match or it wouldn't sound right
Some level matching tutorial in the near future? There are many on youtube, but I see you have a working solution and by simply adapting that I would save the experimental costs.
Hmm, I don't really even know what that would look like. It's more of an art than a science, unfortunately. I basically just go back and forth while boosting/cutting the level of one until it "clicks" into place. You have to build up a bit of experience to lean on and it can still be tricky, especially if the frequency balance between the two sounds is very different. It can get to the point where 0.1dB make a difference. But I don't know that there's any reliable process for it other than just trying to do it a bunch. In most cases, just getting into the ballpark is good enough.
Good job! This video is great!
Spot on.
Excellent advice
THANK YOU FOR DOING THIS VIDEO!
In relation to guitar amp modeling, this is the best video on youtube and a must-watch to keep people from blindly gear hopping all the time. (although I guess that does keep the economy afloat)
I wanted to do something similar but you did it better...Kudos!
For me personally, I don't judge a modeler by how well it does through monitors but rather how it does through an actual guitar cab (with cab modeling disabled). In other words, I judge by the AITR tone and feel .... and here, I'm always stunned at how accurate the Helix amp modeling is with the latest models. (sometimes input pad needs to be engaged).
I don't get all the attempts to replicate tone and feel from a 12" guitar speaker with its inertia and the amount of air that it moves through a 4" full-range monitor? Yes monitors work for 'recorded tones' but not for AITR - which should be the basis for judging how good the AMP model is.
Some of the other modelers provide more 'compression' (which is what people inevitably mean when they talk about feel) but in my estimation, the Helix is actually the most accurate modeler at the moment tone and feel-wise. It really makes no sense to own the actual amp anymore.
I was actually thinking I might actually do a video on sag modeling (the compression you're referring to), since that seems to be where really Helix handles things differently compared to others in the space right now.
@@thebishopgame That would be great! If you listen to this blind test that was just posted (JCM 800) -
ruclips.net/video/tlF4yZN0S14/видео.html&feature=emb_logo
Model B appears to have extra compression and give (almost 'splatty' sounding compared to the others). Based on that, I guessed Fractal because I do think their models have extra compression, which, depending on the style of music that you play, can equate to 'better' feel.
Yes a sag comparison would really be great but not sure how you would demonstrate that over youtube video ... unless you're doing something like Detailed_Ingrid (Trainwreck Express) which is a very touch sensitive model and greatly affected by the sag control
@@onefiveeights152 Ah, good ole Jon. Actually, that B tone is so much brighter than the others I can't even begin to analyze whether I think it's saggier than the others, heh.
@@thebishopgame Can you explain a bit more how Helix handles sag differently?
@@iainpople8986 Based on my experiences tonematching Helix to other products, Helix tends to model sag both more realistically and more noticeably than other products, while other either heavily idealize their power amps, model sag with simple compression, or don't bother with it at all. This is for better or worse, I'd say that it makes the amp behavior more realistic, but it actually might not be behavior that users want, despite claims to the contrary. By default, Helix's amps tend to be saggier than other companies - I had to turn it down to zero in most cases with both Neural DSP and Strymon Iridium tonematches, and given the popularity of both, that makes me heavily question what people actually mean when they say they want "real" sounding amps.
Excellent! Thanks
this is really cool
sounds good
Highly appreciate this video! Can we match levels on different Helix settings without the external analyzer or computer? In the #context of Helix Floor?
You shouldn’t use an analyzer anyway, because of the same stuff I talked about in the video. Low frequencies will frequently register higher on an analyzed while sounding quieter for example. That said, the Helix output block does have a level meter - between that and your ears you should absolutely be able to level presets on the unit. Try to do it in context though, while playing with your band - it’ll be different then when on your own.
@@thebishopgame didn't expect an answer that quick (or at all). Thank you for pointing this out again. Now I understand clearly.
How many times have I made multiple adjustments on a pedal before I realized it wasn't in the loop?
Great stuff here.
Question - how would you feel with a bass comparison? I ask because frequency and levels tend to be a bit more broad when looking at a comparison like this. My ears tricked me for years but I cracked it a while back, but I don't have the equipment to do a test like this.
As in comparing bass guitar tones? It’s the same approach. I think it’s to a lesser extent but we can get tricky by low end the same way we can with high end. I’ve definitely ended up continuously bumping up the low end until there was too much.
"Want better tone? Turn it up!" Eddie Van Halen
How to set our guitar tone for recording... low or high volume?
all i heard was that sweet sweet g&l guitar
I like these kind of nerdy vids! 👌 Great stuff, Igor! These make you sound better, not the honky tonk comparison videos that just take the focus away from what really counts. Btw, I love my Helix 😜
People almost always pick whats louder. It's the way we are wired.
I was not fooled. For the first clip I heard no difference. For the second clip I heard no difference other than a slight change in volume. And your explanation of the Fletcher-Munson curve also explains why Mesa/Boogie Mark series amps without EQ are very midrangey at low volume but at high volume they sound much more balanced. And why as you get louder with a Mesa amp with
EQ, the less dramatic the EQ curve will be.
I can proudly say I caught the "same audio twice" trick, but I also have a history of thinking most amps sound kinda the same by category and most people hear whatever they want to hear in those demos.
I can't say I caught the trick, but I did tell myself that I heard no difference.
@@raymondmann8501 Same here sort of... I'm just a cynicsl old git. If I really don't hear a difference, I'll call BS... and in my experience, most guitarers are bullsh*tters, present company excepted.
Lol, the preset on the left is called "Lies"
This video rules
Louder us always better
So how can we figure out how bright a tone 'should' be?
Can we only test it in a full mix?
Should we reference it to some dark market professional guitar stems?
Yeah, this is where it gets tricky, isn't it? For a final answer, yes, you *have* to check it in context. Anything else is an educated guess at best.
The other problem is that it's a moving target - a tone that sounds perfectly fine in one song section might not work any more as soon as the drummer starts going HAM on the cymbals, or a big buzzy synth comes in. This is one of the things that's really important when mixing songs - being able to balances all those elements and continuously adjust as needed.
For my part, in live shows, I will generally have a preset per song and break the different sections out into snapshots to make adjustments as needed for stuff like that. Of course, I have to dial it in at gig volume and with the band playing, or it's not guaranteed to work.
Excellent 🎸🎸🎸🎸🎸🎸
comming trough your stereo speakers its sounds the same , but in the room with the stack ? and its not all tube amps thats sounds good ,
Ok. I didn't hear a difference in the first. The second had no discernible difference (in tone, harmonics, etc.). Hmm. (Maybe I've listened carefully for too long?) But as the long defunct Stereo Review and others showed, one needs to do level adjusted, double blind ABX testing, not A B comparisons, for audio testing. I think they probably lost advertising money to magazines that didn't have engineers writing articles saying high dollar Monster Cable is indistinguishable from far less expensive 16 ga. zip chord, etc. (That was a write up from an audiophile club, but they had a lot of detailed engineering testing rather than marketing verbiage about 'definition.')
Haha cool video yeah we can be very fooled when we see/hear comparison between different gear.
And i KNOW some make Helix sound worse by purpose
ML Soundlab is one never trust that guy i cant believe i spent alot of money on his IR i never buy anything from that guy again.
And thank you for mention Ola's video
Beacuse that man doesn't know anything about making a fair comparison
Especially if anything Helix is involved i don't know if he doesn it on purpose?
Or if he simply dopesn't know how to dial in a tone in Helix?
When he did a comparison video on a bunch of modeler units againt the Mesa MKIIC+
(Helix doesnt have a MKIIC+ so he had to use MKIV but that amnp is very close top MKIIC+)
Ola didn't dial in the 5 band EQ on the Helix (maybe it's beacuse you need to go down in the drop down menu in the ampblock to see the 5 band EQ and it was even harder when Ola did the comparison in 2016 or 2017) ) in the ampblock to mimic the 5 band EQ setting he had on the real amp.
And therefore Helix sounded very different compared to all other modeler units.
(I know this as he shared the preset he used in the comparison)
As soon as i dial in the 5 band EQ to mimic the setting he had on the real amp which i saw in the video Helix sounded much closer to the amp and all other modeler.
So far 2 Fractal users have watched this video.
Great video. Question, did you level off the aftermarket IR with Ola's IR so that their peaks would be at the same volume or so that they would be at the same average volume? If the former, I don't know if that's a fair comparison given that it looks like Ola's had more dynamic range. But again... Could have just been my ears playing tricks on me!
Nah, that would just be normalization, not leveling. I matched by ear so they felt like they had the same overall volume. Ola’s actually didn’t have more dynamic range, he just wasn’t holding a chord like I did. The clip of his audio I grabbed had some riffing in it.
The Ir tricks the audiences ear too therefore they think your guitar sounds good.
Great video. Thank you. Everything sounds good in Mom's basement though.
I don't hear a difference between any of them.
THIS COMMENT SOUNDS BETTER haha, maybe it doesn't work the same. I've always thought that people who have super loud and bright speaking voices have an unfair advantage in social situations, since the ear is drawn to those tones.
I assumed it was one of those “switcheroo” videos but I like this even better. Im a helix guy so, thumbs up!
What is “IR” asking for a friend.
Impulse Response! Basically a cab sim. Lots of people have IRs up for sale that some people really like, great for getting an additional variety of cab sounds past what Helix (or any other modeler) provide on their own.
Maybe I was tricked and heard a little difference in the first examples, but to tell you the truth, I wasn't really loving any of those sounds and rather still stick to a good ol' well dialed tube amp. About the information on perceived sounds, I found it really interesting. Thanks for sharing
its funny that a whole industry just ignores these facts. quantum cryotreated digital gear isolation idiotism rules a million dollar industry of "high" end audio. its just miserable to see cable lifters and digital gear isolation stuff being sold for thousands... and then fake AB demoed of course. thanks for posting this! I am reposting it to 'audio' fools :D
Even the preset is labeled lies lol