The Plot Against America | Althist Lore
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- Опубликовано: 9 июл 2024
- In today's video, we take a look at The Plot Against America, a novel by Philip Roth which explores an alternate timeline wherein Charles Lindburgh becomes President of the United States. We'll not only explore the worldbuilding of the novel, but suggest our own alternate endings to the book!
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#alternatehistory #history #worldwar2 #ww2 #wwii #usa
Which ending was your favorite?
Wait, if the U.S. never placed an embargo on Japan, why did they attack Pearl Harbor?
Ending #1 Seemed to be the most realistic. It's unlikely that Germany would've won ww2 at all. However I don't think not sending lend lease would effect early-war Russia at all. Russia would still win Moscow, Stalingrad,, and Kursk, but the rapid counter offensives following the battle of Kursk would've been harder due to the lack of lend-lease.
@@Vaushgg mabye I think the soviets could win without lend leas although only if the communist changed policies drastically.
@@longhairdontcare122 If they switched their policies to produce more trucks rather than tank, then that could work. It would just be a harder struggle for them.
i wont lie i honestly thought u was gonna go further back and bring lindbergh back instead of him just disappearing but i see it really just being the third option or pearl harbor never happening with america supporting germany and japan i still think this video is amazing like the rest but thats where i where i personally of started making changes or at the very least have lindbergh actually assassinated if u were to go with the vice president
But what if Lindbergh did a 9/11 on the Eiffel Tower?
Real
Philip Roth was Jewish. The bias of this on his alternate history is going to be massive, especially in american context.
The thing you have to keep in mind about Roth and his work: Roth did THE PLOT AGAINST AMERICA more as a reflection on anti-Semitism than as a real AltHist exercise. None of his other works like PORTNOY'S COMPLAINT or GOODBYE, COLUMBUS were anything like this one, and he really didn't care about what happened to the world, only to his fictionalized version of hos own family.
At one point, Roth suggested that no one had ever done a novel like PLOT AGAINST AMERICA before, but he backtracked pretty quickly when other such works like this were brought up to him. (Rumors that a visit from the ghost of Philip K. Dick can't be verified, but not out of the realm of possibility...)
Bottom line was, Roth tried to do something in an area he neither really understood or gave that much thought to, and it painfully shows in his novel.
I’ve always had similar issues with the man in the high castle book, since it stopped attempting to properly alternate history and instead “wanted” to apparently be more a vehicle for philosophy on “real” vs “false” reality and importance of art/artistry in what was at the time it was written, the present day. Guess it makes a bit of sense considering PKD suffered from apparent schizophrenia and drug abuse at times, and heavily consulted the I-Ching of all things when writing it.
@@youthoughtaboutit6946 All the famous alternate histories just aren't written by historians it seems :/
@@youthoughtaboutit6946 Quite true. The idea of the Axis winning the war was always at best secondary, maybe tertiary, to the examination of the concept of reality in the work. Dick could probably have just as easily set up his novel with the same framework as BRING THE JUBILEE or THE DIFFERENCE ENGINE and given us pretty much the same book.
In order to have Japan attack Pearl Harbor, there needs to be a reason for it. Based on what information you gave from the novel, there would be no reason for Japan to attack. Likewise, if the US wasn't giving material help to the Brits and Soviets, Germany would have zero reason to back Japan after the attack, and an indifferent US towards Germany would also keep them from declaring war.
Japan needed a reason to attack pearl harbor, in our OTL the reason they attacked was because we put an oil embargo on them after they conquered French Indochina.
If we didn't put an oil embargo on Japan, they would not have bombed Pearl Harbor and they would have conquered Asia and the island territories of the UK and France in the Pacific Ocean.
Again, the seemingly abrupt and unexplained attack on Pearl Harbor is a plot point in the novel. I agree, it's unexplained and doesn't make sense in the context of the rest of the book, but Philip Roth was not a historian nor did he really have experience writing historical fiction, so he chose a quick way out to end the novel.
@@DeanMonsieur Sadly, it is true, luckily I as a fan fiction writer have the desire to end my fan fictions properly.
Triparte pact
I mean does an attack on pearl harbor by the Japanese even make sense if America never placed an Oil embargo on Japan?
Yeah the author of the original novel was definitely not the best at writing 😅😂
Could have kept the oil Embargo with America being super defensive of it's pacific holdings. That would have made some sense.
no
The most history-illiterate aspect of "The Plot Against America" was, how he characterized the South as supportive of fascism, even though the South was strongly pro-Britain and America First didn't have much support in the region.
I think Philip Roth assumed that because of Jim Crow and racism, Southerners would be pro-fascism. Of course, you can't expect someone like him to appreciate the complexity and multi-layered nature of history.
Well, Klan and Neonazi are allies and have same view....
What if Edward VIII, the later Duke of Windsor, didn't abdicate shortly before WWII?
That could start a political crisis that would be so bad that it would make Watergate look like a silly playground incident.
Suggestion: What if Carlos II of Spain was born healthier
Impossible 😊
@@salprocopio7319 gasp
Why not remove the Japanese attack on Pearl Habour? Because frankly, without the embargo, it makes no sense whatsoever.
In the lend lease scenario, why would an anti-communist president refusing to supply the Soviet Union delay D-Day? If anything, it would speed up the timetable, as they would have all the materials that were sent to the Soviet Union available to be used for preparing for D-day.
Historically, the Stalin preferred lend lease being sent to the Soviet Union, and was willing to delay the invasion of Normandy to accomplish this.
Good question! Because I wanted to explore a wacky scenario wherein this darker United States is forced to fight Germany. It gives me more room to come up with a unique scenario rather than regurgitate the typical "bad guys win" narrative that you find in The Man in the High Castle and other works of althist about a fascist or fascistic America.
Suggestion: What if North Korea set up a provincial government in Manchuria when they loose in Korean War?
Then Manchuria would become the Manchukuo of the Eastern Bloc.
Oh Charles Lindbergh and Herman Goering. Lindbergh went to Germany and looked over the Luftwaffe and I believe the medal he received I believe had something to do with aviation.
P.S. Great video 👍 Can you do one on the Business Plot and I have an idea for you for sometime in the future:
What if MacArthur became an American Shogun of Japan ruling in the Emperor’s Name. This new Japan would be a mix of Traditional Japanese culture and American Military & Industrial might/Americana.
What if RFK survived
Keep up the good work! Loving this channel 🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉
What if the eastern Roman Empire, instead of trying to reunite the Roman Empire, tried expanding east in the 6th century, attempting to mirror Alexander’s conquest.
Oh come 😂, now we NEED to see the Huey Long scenario next!
Idea: what if instead of Andrew Johnson Abraham Lincoln kept Hannibal Hamlin as his vice president until he was assassinated?????
Love the new style!
Why would Japan attack USA in the first place as you said earlier the USA lifted embargo and the only reason why Japan attacked USA historically was due to the embargo on Oil.
It dosen't make any sense to me was there any explanation of japanese attack in the book?
I agree completely and disliked the ending. It was just waved away as Japanese Imperialism. I assume Philip Roth probably took the fact that Japan left the League of Nations and ignored some minor treaties with the US as “precedent” as to why the aforementioned treaty passed by Lindbergh would be ignored, but its just lazy writing in my opinion.
Well, Linderberg is gone and when Roosevelt is reelected it's clear he would resume anti Japanese imperialism measures (the embargo was the most radical)
Though, I like the tv series version more
What If Alaska was a British 🇬🇧 colony
Nothing much in history would change. It would just be a part of Canada and Canada would be slightly wealthier. Maybe the americans would jizz in their pants at the idea of annexing Canada a little less.
Or better yet a Canadian providence.
where can I find that graphic at the start of the video?
Also why did Japan attack Pearl Harbor if the U.S. never put an embargo on Japan?
Because Philip Roth wanted a cop-out ending to his book :(
That’s the first thing I thought about. Guess the guy had no clue what he was talking about?
@@Boretheoryyeah he was definitely a novelist not a historian
Well, Linderberg is gone and when Roosevelt is reelected it's clear he would resume anti Japanese imperialism measures (the embargo was the last and the most radical)
Though, I like the tv series version more
I really liked the Tv series. Was hoping for more
Why would Japan attack without the oil embargo?
Love it good job 👏
Thanks, Obama
What if Francisco Morazan's Centroamerica succeeded and managed to stay united?
Tbh even with the original story i HIGHLY doubt that the normal timelone (ours) is restored, japan took probably the whole of china and even more both military and diplomiatical (like thailand etc...) and most importantly indonesia/phillipine so they now have their own supply of oil and more importantly GERMANY probably has more or less defeated the sowjet union like lets be honest, the UDSSR was absolutely damaged the first few years in WW2 since stalin purged all his competent officers, generals, paratrooper (which russia had one of the best world-wide if not the BEST) so we can realistic assume that germany broke through stalingrad and has reached the black sea so they also have their own high supply of oil - and with that the war is more or less won or at least germany/axis can defend their taken land/claims - since logistics is everything especially in WW2
Wait where is the alt history tierlist video I cant find it
Nice video
Scenario suggestion.
What if Prince Arthur had lived and become King instead of his younger brother Henry?
What If Canada became North America's superpower instead of America
What if Italy and Japan were against Germany during WW2?
Can you do a timeline where America becomes Panem? Like a hunger games timeline.
Is there a video with your tier list? I wanna watch it, mostly because Id like an explanation of each scenario.
In the works. It's turned out to be a bit longer than anticipated! 😅
Not sure if this is an option or not, but...
Since we're doing AltHist based on other works, what's the chance we'd get an examination of the Tarantino films and see how those could have played out? Looking at what takes place after either INGLORIUOS BASTERDS or ONCE UPON A TIME IN HOLLYWOOD ended might make for an interesting subject...
Mayhaps…
Suggestion: What if the Nepalese Royal Massacre never happened?
Who do you think wins ww2 in this timeline. Whoever wins, it will be close.
I get that this book isnt about the politics, but why would Japan even attack the US? With Roosevelt voted out in 1940, and the book mentioning that Lindbergh lifted the oil embargo, and was keeping US policy neutral, I would assume that many of the policies that Roosevelt put in place before would be overturned, whole the actions he took afterwards never happened.
All that heavily implies a situation where there's little reason for Japan to think the US was a threat it HAD to deal with so quickly, if anything they'll focus more on south east Asia, taking British and Dutch colonies, maybe even invadinf Siberia to try and take land from tue Soviets who without land lease for an extended time, would be ill equipped to defend it and slow the Nazi advance.
Though I imagine Pearl Harbor was purposely kept in because the writer really needed a means to reset the status quo.
Woah an actual informed way to define fascism, very nice.
I’ve had The Plot Against America in my Max watchlist for a couple of years now, I’ll get to watching it eventually. Based on what you said it looks interesting although most reviews say that for being about authoritarian alt history it’s more boring than it sounds…
Why wouldnt the coal and steel community form if Europe was even more ravaged?
Eu não entendo por que você não arrasta todas as dublagens para o seu canal principal
Why would pearl harbor still happen if no oil embargo?
Could you do this format for Kiaserreich?
I think he’s already started working on that exact idea
I'm interested, but Kaiserreich content is plentiful so I'll be focusing on some other projects first.
What if Prince Leopold of Hohenzollern-Sigmaringen became king of Spain after the Franco-Prussian War?
What if Friedrich remained Kaiser of the German Empire longer than99days.
What if Ottoman Empire wom 1878 Russo-Turkish war ?
A classic.
Hello Mr. Z
Dope video btw
That's just odd... the whole reason Japan attacked in the first place was they needed oil... they have it now so why would they do that?
Neat
Why am I watching this on RUclips Music? 💀😭
💀
It's a dope name tho
I like to see Nixon winning in 1960.
I was like wow this is an interesting alternate history and then Jesus Christ who the fuck ruins a story like that
Why does Option 3 sound like TNO
@@Aboutthatbearioweya in TNO Japan somehow won against USA,so nah
@@FuntimeVictimerFNAFBR half like it in Europe atleast
@@Aboutthatbearioweya then you should see twr since it's a mod where Axis won in Europe but Lost in Asia
first up i love all the video and sry for all the bad english its my 4th languege XD
but that thing with soviets not having a chance is straight up wrong, it would cost them WAY more manpower probably 45-65% more and they might not get accros polands border but they would be able to atleast hold the germans of, logistics are the problem and both sides didnt have anything in the rual soviet lands, the land lease gave them the chance to move faster with the trucks but it didnt keep them alive. They soviets would be without a dout be much weaker and probably be a non thraight after the war but they would be able to hold ther borders and stay atleast somewhat stable even getting romania but no chance for poland or anything else and romania is already a stretch
Please do not use polish flag with an eagle as it is not the correct flag, and is used exclusively but very spontaniousely by administration buildings etc.
22:00 I would disagree. The Soviets received very little lend lease in 1941 and 1942, and only started receiving it in large quantities in 1943 and 1944, so I would argue that The battles of Moscow and Stalingrad are still won in this timeline in the same way they were won in ours. However due to the *less lend lease in this timeline, they can't push back the Nazis as effectively as they did in our timeline, and it takes them another 6 months to reach Berlin.
In fact, in the miniseries we learn that neither side is winning in 1942 - like in our timeline.
the lend lease in 1941 and 42 was mostly trucks and trains from what i heard to transport soviet factories, without that the soviets would have no industry, as most of their industry would be under enemy control, the soviets would be unable to do anything when hey have no guns, bullets, no food, nothing, just a whole lot of snow without it, its possible that Stalingrad will still be the last stand with the soviets throwing the last bit of their strength to hold the city, but within a few months of brutal fighting, the Germans would win.
Also in the scenario where the US doesnt send lend lease to the soviets, its possible that due to anti communism, the US secretly sells trucks to the Germans, since that was their main shortage they would have throughout the war, in a scenario where the US is at war with Germany in this scenario, its most likely just a token effort and they wouldn't do much, most likely playing less of a role in operation torch and other pre D-Day offensives while they just negotiate a peace with the Germans in exchange for monetary compensation.
In summary, much less committed USA to the war against Germany would lead to the Soviets crumbling and Barbarossa being more of a success. the UK realizing the US didn't care about fighting the Germans eventually signs a peace with the Germans or possibly a few year long phony war just goes on until Churchill is eventually voted out of office or kicked out of office, with the UK only losing minor colonial holdings while gaining large majority of their allies colonies while continuing to host their exiled governments and claim they're still the legitimate government
Japan would be annihilated like in our timeline.
@@bossy1496 There was no land lease in 1941, the year Soviet industry was saved from falling into the hands of the Nazis by evacuating most of it beyond the Urals, because America would not be involved at all until December.
@@bossy1496 Wrong. The lend lease given to the soviets in 1941-42 wasn't all that much. It wasn't all just trucks either, as you know, but the loss of that little bit of war material wouldn't do much to change the overall outcome of the war, at least in the beginning. It will be when the soviets try to push the Germans back from Stalingrad and Kursk, when they will run into major problems due to the lack of truck to supply their rapidly moving forces.
@@francescocarlini7613There was lend lease in 1941. The act was passed in March of 1941. Supplies were sent through the White Sea and Vladivostok beginning in June of 1941. There were also pre-Lend Lease supplies sent to the Soviet Union.
The reason not much arrived is because the conditions were terrible, and boats were under constant threat from German submarines, without the aid of the American Navy proper, instead only isolated, deniable elements. Stalin also insisted that the majority if supplies be sent through the White Sea, a much riskier path, than Vladivostok, as it could arrive in a much more timely fashion to the front. Based on this action, Stalin seems not to have been of the opinion of total Soviet superiority over the Germans that many share on this subject. Those supplies that were sent were those the Soviets needed most desperately, such as trucks, trains, factory equipment, and materials, and would have struggled the most without.
Without the challenge of navigating to Arkangalsk, the supplies given over the course of that year would have been much higher, as up to two thirds of it was unable to arrive.
Supplies were also sent to the Soviet Union before Lend Lease, paid for mostly with gold and other minerals. In 1941, allied shipments which arrived in the Soviet Union totaled 360,778 tons.
We see half a term, of course he couldn't go too deep. And fascism in American couldn't be the same as in Europe
Maybe it is shown better in the TV series
I’ll be honest I’m not the biggest fan of the book. Granted I’m just not a fan of most WWII alt hists.
Yeah they tend to be overdone and shallow
Absolutely no reason for Japan to attack, what trash writing lol.
Why should I care what a Jewish novel with a self insert character has to say?
Beacause is intresting seeing other views.
I don't think there would be a japan to compete in the dark order
22:00 - I will disagree with your estimates that Soviet Union will fall without any Land Lease. In OTL the most of American help got to USSR only after 1942 when Soviets was allready in counter-offense stage against Germans. And then again its not like those goods was unreplacable, Soviets had capacities to produce them themselves after successfully evacuating their industries behind the Urals outside of Luftwaffe reach. Its just wasn't sufficient enough and too long to produce all of them alone, much easier way was to just get them ship from America in exchange for raw materials of Siberia. And still most prominent American product that Soviets used wasn't rifles, ammo, tanks or food but trucks - they were quintessential for improvement of logistics when massive conter-offensive operations later started.
So realistically I don't think USSR will surrender or got annihilated out of nowhere. More probably they will manage to expel German troops by themselves out of most of their territories but not went further and just sign with Berlin white truce as both countries got exhausted.
A more based world.