**spoilers** I’ll be honest, I’m watching top down and it still looks like Aggie was the No Dashii so town, I give you a pat on the back, that was the most viable world and I KNEW what the actual world was 😂 *edit* I suppose pats on the back do go to story teller as well tbh, y’all told a fantastic story lol
Is there any reason not to give the Lil Monsta to good players when there's a Scarlet Woman in play? Seems like it would be fun to watch them get themselves executed and have it keep bouncing back. I suppose in this script, you have to watch out for Engineer turning a good babysitter into an Imp or No Dashii, or eliminating the Scarlet Woman, but if it weren't for Engineer...
Doing this would mean that the Good player holding the LM would most likely learn there's a Scarlet Woman in play, but for the lols and general confusion this play would definitely be worth it. :D The good team would be left with a choice - execute a good player claiming to be holding LM knowing there's probably a Scarlet Woman in play, or execute other people hoping to find a minion. I'm going to put this one in the bank for a LM game - as a minion, bluff as a good player that got handed LM last night, then ask to be executed. You'd probably be killed, sure, but it's a great way to convince the Good Team that the wrong minions are a in play. Great way to hide a Poisoner or something like that. - Evin
You don't have to buy a new chair! Roller chairs have pretty standardized wheel attachment points. I highly recommend getting all new wheels that are like roller blade wheels. They're life changing
*[Mild spoiler warning]* Wildstar in chat: "Don't just nominate me because I'm always evil." Also Wildstar: Is evil and the role everyone's scared of. *Vote Wildstar* ™ (If Wildstar happens to see this even though I'm 4 months late to the party, I'll just say "Sorry, I had to.
Started this video at work yesterday. Just finished it now. How was the Clocktower party on the 30th of October? How many games did you all get through?
Why on earth did Jamie sit on his other investigator ping? He let them execute Bardic and said nothing about the other person, which town never could evaluate. Kat also, again, decided that she can lie to everyone but anyone who lies to her is evil. I think Evil obviously played well, but the 'lol chaos and lies' of so many of the Good team really hurt them .
The reason you would sit on a ping is to hope that the Demon picks them off. The Demon wants to give as little information possible through kills, so there's merit in holding onto suspicions if you don't think they'll be acted on that day. Most groups won't immediately kill both sides of an invest ping because that relies too much on one person being good. I can't speak for this particular game, since I've not finished watching it, but not all lying is for the sake of chaos. There are usually genuine tradeoffs to consider.
@@godowskygodowsky1155 If you learn about a Scarlet Woman or Godfather: Sure, whatever. Learning that there is a Spy in the game (unless the investigator is drunk/poisoned or lying) is very important information however, even on day 1 already. Spoiler: The investigator dies on night 1. Why not come out with the information on day 2 the latest?
Nice to see BotC content, cannot wait for my grimoire. Just one question to the storyteller: Does the Godfather not activate if an outsider is killed by the Little Monsta?
If a scarlet woman in a lil’ monster game becomes the new babysitter, does that mean that the SW is still in play and could theoretically catch it more than once?
If I'm understanding your question correctly, yes. If the Scarlet Woman is holding the Lil Monsta, then they can't do anything, because the Demon and Scarlet Woman would both die. However, if a non-SW player is executed with the Lil Monsta, the Scarlet Woman becomes the Demon. Then they can give the token to someone else that night and do it again the next day, assuming five or more players live.
A 'star pass' is a slang term for when the Imp targets themselves at night, dying, and a minion becomes the Imp. It's a term borrowed from the sport of roller derby, in which the Jammer can pass the star on their helmet to the Pivot, making them the new Jammer. I'm afraid I bear responsibility for the introduction of this particular bit of parlance into Clocktower - I'm a roller derby fan and started calling the Imp self-targeting move a 'star pass' one day, and it caught on. - Evin
At 40:00ish in if Ben had given Bardic the Spy for Kat then Evil would have been sitting pretty because. Spy explains Grolen getting a 0 and explains why Kat was not killed by the virgin (registered as evil for that) and makes Jaime look like the drunk.
Thing is, it’s very rare for a spy to actually show up as a spy to the undertaker, so it pretty much screams “the storyteller(s) are trying to convince me of a false worldview”. Which means the only believable “spy” read for an undertaker is what that player was already bluffing as.
Very interesting game, good play throughout by almost all players. Thought storytellers were way too influential here though and completely misread the game. This game had very low info by design which is fine of course, but apart from that basically the good team just had a load of traps to work out and only a weak play by the engineer to shake things up. Deck was stacked heavily against them from the start and during the game the Empath was also killed off so it was already close to GG there. Also I don't quite understand how with this script it's not just a standard first turn move for an engineer to force a No Dashii game. With the roles as given it's not a great move here, but generally by sharing all relevant information a No Dashii puzzle turns out to be solvable.
No Dashii would only be solvable through luck, by the sheer fact that the target doesn't move and they might get lucky. Otherwise a No Dashii would just kill what little information gathering they had left, and picking it on the first turn would have further destroyed their information gathering right from the beginning, Particularly with a posioner in play, and the Drunk Virgin already damaging their information gathering. No Matter which Demon got chosen it's more about luck than deduction to be able to pin them down and take them out before they lose. The Better move in this setup is always going to be to choose the minions so you know exactly what powers that they have and what they can do to you to look for them and hope to find them. Even Grolen's death doesn't mean much, yes he was the Empath and yes that's a powerful Role under more favorable conditions. But he has the problem that he is isolated deep within a stack of Townsfolk, So he's getting valuable information but that information is stagnant unless they kill off a bunch of townsfolk and then they are so weakened his information about running into a minion/demon is basically too little and too late (specially since they didn't entirely trust his information and felt he was throwing shade on Malaki as misinforming his ability). His information is even more weakened when you consider the fact that Aidan was basically a hard wall against the Empath's powers being the soldier without something like the Poisoner in play to make him killable at night. Meaning you have to basically kill just about every other person around the circle to reach the targets that your really wanting to reach with his information gathering. Even if you consider Aidan Poisoned by the No Dashii, because the engineer put it into the game, and it ended up affecting Aidan the no Dashii would have no reason to kill Aidan and ruin what is an almost perfect defense against Empath discovery.
Bit late to the party here but I have a question… night one when Ben and Edd are giving information why are they having to decide if Kat as the Chef receives a 1 or a 0? As Kat isn’t drunk or poisoned surely they should be getting accurate information which would be 1. I thought players not drunk/poison get accurate information
Have a read of the Spy's ability. You'll notice that they can register as good. This means that they could show up as good to the Chef, thus giving them a 0 instead of a 1. - Ben
I see Engineer and Spy and think "well that is a wasted change", because the power of the spy is seeing the grimoire, which isn't really lost if changed. Then again, with little monster it's kinda fine because the killing is done via the ST not the demon. However if the engineer changes from Little Monster to anything else, it's just a win for the evil team, which seems harsh. Will have to watch and see how it actually pans out.
@@BloodontheClocktower 'win' as in Evil gains, not 'win' as in winning the game. Sorry if that confused you. Although I am now trying to remember exactly why I said that, I think maybe because they had the spy info, and could now choose where kills go. I also may have confused how the engineer worked at the time, that was said right near the start of the video. Also Hi Ben, been binging these games since seeing the No Rolls Barred videos. I'm not normally into playing these types of games, but enjoy watching them for some reason. Also love the explanations and reasoning going on.
Glad to hear you're enjoying our stuff. It's a little less professionally produced than NRB, but I like to think our players can be just as entertaining! - Ben
@@BloodontheClocktower While I do recognise the difference in production value, I do recognise NRB is a lot more work with all the recording and editing and stuff. Plus while I loved Tom's flowery discriptions of people's deaths, your "Iris is dead" has a grounded feel to it ;-) Now I'm about to watch the Yaggababble showcase... after seeing another showcase... help?
I have a question about the engineer's ability. If the engineer were to be played in a script with legion in it (but legion is not in play), could they make a legion demon? If so, would most of the townsfolk be changed to legion, or would there only be one legion, screwing over the evil team?
So if an engineer for some reason made a minion into the godfather, would you just ignore the +1/-1 outsider? Or are you obliged to turn a townsfolk into an outsider at that point? I guess you could just convert engineer into outsider.
Your first suggestion is the correct one - bracketed text *only* ever affects things before the start of the game. That text is ignored if a character is created after the start of the game. - Evin
So choosing minions: Would you say they can only choose 2? Because they are unaware of lil Monsta and otherwise will only have 2 theoretical minions to choose, or would they then be able to choose 3. Doing it confirms a Lil Monsta and in a non Lil Monsta game, the Lil Monsta would then *have* to be in play to fit the quota of minions. I think I may have answered my own question, but I'm still unsure mainly due to how sparse (in words) the ability is.
If an engineer selects more minions than are currently in play, the storyteller will simply discard as many of the choices as necessary to get to the number of minions in play. So in this game, the engineer chose 3 minions with lil' monsta in play, so all three minions would change, but if lil' monsta was not in play, Ben would have ignored one of the minions and only used two of them to change the minions, and not tell the engineer. So the engineer has no noticeable difference, other than that their third pick is not in play, which they (usually) cannot identify.
Can the Engineer choose three of the same role for minions, make all the minions Scarlet Women, have 5 or more players alive when Lil' Monsta dies, and thus make an only child into either twins or triplets?
I don't understand the only child part, but, no, characters are not allowed to be duplicated, usually. (However, more 'Imp's and 'Fang Gu's can come into play, and 'Legion's are in play together.)
Just curious but with the Lil' Monstaers handler being "the demon", if the engineer had changed the demon to the imp wouldn't Wildstar have become the Imp? And as it is, since she's "the demon", wouldn't changing the minions have not affected her
I've loved all of these games but I think after watching it that the meta for lil monster games is that the story tellers are a 'hidden demon', the power of the story tellers choosing who dies with perfect knowledge on the red team's behalf was, in this game anyways, massively underestimated. I think that the team should have been pushed to 4vs2, not 3vs3, the story tellers deciding that a town that had all of it's most powerful proactive roles eliminated early by the story tellers would suddenly figure everything out on the last day felt unbalanced. It was great to watch, but with both the red team and the story tellers having perfect information, and the town losing theirs so quickly, i think it was heavily leveraged against them. Thank you for recording and posting it!
*Some spoilers, but leading into a general 'philosophy of STing' query*: In a Li'l Monsta game is it generally better for Storytellers to kill with perfect knowledge of the roles, or try to feign 'evil ignorance' - for want of a better word? That is, if a good player is actively trying to bait a kill from the demon, is it better to reward that or not? Obviously in this specific example it was a spy game anyway so the 'demon' would logically have perfect knowledge anyway and therefore killing in ways that are strategically best for the evil team certainly makes sense, but in a general no-spy game, I'm a little uncomfortable with thoughts that Li'l Monsta removes those strategic avenues from the good team if the ST kills with perfect knowledge, along with reducing the responsibility of Evil to learn enough to select targets (obv. poison targets and the like are still valid things to discover) But then perhaps you could argue much the same about Spy, so maybe I'm overthinking it! It's more that from watching this game and seeing so much effort from the Good team to cover their true roles, which was entirely pointless given the type of game it ultimately was did get me thinking, and I'm not quite sure how I'd run a Monsta in the future.
As with most things, I'd recommend a balance between the two. You generally want to back evil plays, which isn't the same as killing the best targets for them. If, for example, a poisoner poisons someone because they want them to get misinformation, you generally ought to allow that misinformation to happen, even if you feel the evil team would benefit more from that player dying and not getting any information at all. - Ben
Same as online, unless running it in a weird way online. (I know some people way over-communicate during the night, which will suck for them when they play IRL.) For example, let's say you have this script with Poisoner, Spy, and Imp as evil team: 1) Wake up Engineer (tap their knee) to see if they'll use their ability (I personally have a card that says "Use your ability?" in the bootleg version I made.) 2) Engineer nods and points to Lil Monsta on their character sheet. (Each player should have one printed out and on-hand.) 3) Give them the "Go to sleep" sign, which is swiping your hand in front of your eyes. Note this in the grimoire with the "used ability" reminder token and swapping Imp's token out. 4) Wake the Imp. Point to the Imp (I don't think the standard game has a "You are..." card like I made?) and show them the token of the Minion you chose to turn them into. Let's say Godfather to make this more informative. 5) Give them relevant new info, if any. In this case, show them the tokens of in-play Outsiders. 6) Wake the other two Minions and show all three the Lil Monsta token. 7) Wait for them to silently decide which Minion is babysitting (pointing at each other). Note this in the grim with the "Is the Demon" Lil Monsta reminder token by that Minion. Put them all to sleep and continue as normal. If I were an Engineer in an IRL game and thought there'd be either 2 or 3 Minions in play, I'd strongly point (avoiding making noise) to my first choice, strongly point to my second choice, pause, shrug at the ST, then hesitantly point at the third choice...and just hope the ST gets the message that I really want these two in play and "if there's 3, maybe put that one in?" Like Ben said, it's up to ST if they'll honor that, but I honestly think any good ST will honor a reasonable request if they can to make sure the game is fun. I'm not sure if there's something specific you had questions about. Hopefully I didn't miss a step or get one wrong. I haven't seen an official almanac or anything for Lil Monsta. I'm just going off what I know from watching it played. The key thing is: the entire night is silent and mostly consists of pointing at players, pointing at character sheets, nodding/shaking head for "yes"/"no", thumbs up/down for "good"/"evil", showing tokens, and the communication cards like "Your Demon is..." Keep in mind the ST should also be waiting for the player to acknowledge every action. i.e. when they show Imp the Godfather token, the Imp player should look at it and then nod to ST to signify "Yes, I understand". The way I like handling stuff like showing Godfather which Outsiders are in is handing the player the tokens and waiting for them to hand them back. (I do this with Dreamer, Demon bluffs, etc. My personal preference. You could also show them one at a time and wait for them to nod between showing each one.) Hope my wall o text is helpful.
Why have a ravenkeeper in a spy/monsta game? The spy would tell the demon who the ravenkeeper is so they'd never be killed by the demon, and storytellers would never pick the ravenkeeper to die in a monsta game. Kinda just seems like nullifying a player for no reason
Storytellers will totally kill a Ravenkeeper! They're there to keep the game balanced, so if they think good could use a boost they'll make kills that help the good team. And a spy might not be able to tell the demon in time, or maybe the Ravenkeeper is poisoned so they *want* them to die... there are always possibilities. Plus a Ravenkeeper not getting killed can also be good information in and of itself.
@@andsailedcalmlyon In addition, the engineer can make an active demon and even with a Spy if they note their info down wrongly and put the RK as the drunk they're liable to murk them. Plus if Good builds a world where they get all evils wrong they (Either ST or Demon) can totally make it look like the RK is the Drunk when they aren't. Also if the RK is poisoned or it's a Vortox script Good need to do a lot of work to decide whether it is useful info or not. In short the Ravenkeeper is an excellent example of how flexible Blood on the Clocktower is even with that many codified roles.
**spoilers**
I’ll be honest, I’m watching top down and it still looks like Aggie was the No Dashii so town, I give you a pat on the back, that was the most viable world and I KNEW what the actual world was 😂
*edit*
I suppose pats on the back do go to story teller as well tbh, y’all told a fantastic story lol
Evil Engi makes Vortox mid-game, welcome to hell XD.
"It's an American Bible" is one of my favorite jokes I've heard on this channel.
Is there any reason not to give the Lil Monsta to good players when there's a Scarlet Woman in play? Seems like it would be fun to watch them get themselves executed and have it keep bouncing back. I suppose in this script, you have to watch out for Engineer turning a good babysitter into an Imp or No Dashii, or eliminating the Scarlet Woman, but if it weren't for Engineer...
Doing this would mean that the Good player holding the LM would most likely learn there's a Scarlet Woman in play, but for the lols and general confusion this play would definitely be worth it. :D
The good team would be left with a choice - execute a good player claiming to be holding LM knowing there's probably a Scarlet Woman in play, or execute other people hoping to find a minion.
I'm going to put this one in the bank for a LM game - as a minion, bluff as a good player that got handed LM last night, then ask to be executed. You'd probably be killed, sure, but it's a great way to convince the Good Team that the wrong minions are a in play. Great way to hide a Poisoner or something like that.
- Evin
@@BloodontheClocktower Saint holds LM, gets executed, Scarlet woman catches then evil team wins?
You don't have to buy a new chair! Roller chairs have pretty standardized wheel attachment points. I highly recommend getting all new wheels that are like roller blade wheels. They're life changing
As this video was made over two years ago, it is my sad duty to inform you that I did, in fact, get a new chair. - Ben
*[Mild spoiler warning]*
Wildstar in chat: "Don't just nominate me because I'm always evil."
Also Wildstar: Is evil and the role everyone's scared of.
*Vote Wildstar* ™
(If Wildstar happens to see this even though I'm 4 months late to the party, I'll just say "Sorry, I had to.
Started this video at work yesterday. Just finished it now.
How was the Clocktower party on the 30th of October? How many games did you all get through?
Played 7 games, had 2 running at a time most of the time, had loads of fun! :)
Why on earth did Jamie sit on his other investigator ping? He let them execute Bardic and said nothing about the other person, which town never could evaluate. Kat also, again, decided that she can lie to everyone but anyone who lies to her is evil. I think Evil obviously played well, but the 'lol chaos and lies' of so many of the Good team really hurt them .
The reason you would sit on a ping is to hope that the Demon picks them off. The Demon wants to give as little information possible through kills, so there's merit in holding onto suspicions if you don't think they'll be acted on that day. Most groups won't immediately kill both sides of an invest ping because that relies too much on one person being good.
I can't speak for this particular game, since I've not finished watching it, but not all lying is for the sake of chaos. There are usually genuine tradeoffs to consider.
@@godowskygodowsky1155 If you learn about a Scarlet Woman or Godfather: Sure, whatever. Learning that there is a Spy in the game (unless the investigator is drunk/poisoned or lying) is very important information however, even on day 1 already.
Spoiler:
The investigator dies on night 1. Why not come out with the information on day 2 the latest?
@@whocares2277plus spy means the demon has the pings so keeping it hidden doesn't mean anything
@1:14:16 is the funniest moment I've ever seen in a clocktower stream.
Nice to see BotC content, cannot wait for my grimoire. Just one question to the storyteller: Does the Godfather not activate if an outsider is killed by the Little Monsta?
I'm afraid not for the Godfather. The Lil' Monsta kills at night, and the Godfather's power only activates if an Outsider died during the day.
- Evin
😂 Love that Daddy Ben makes references to the American Bible, with the extra gospels, Smith and Wesson.
If a scarlet woman in a lil’ monster game becomes the new babysitter, does that mean that the SW is still in play and could theoretically catch it more than once?
If I'm understanding your question correctly, yes. If the Scarlet Woman is holding the Lil Monsta, then they can't do anything, because the Demon and Scarlet Woman would both die. However, if a non-SW player is executed with the Lil Monsta, the Scarlet Woman becomes the Demon. Then they can give the token to someone else that night and do it again the next day, assuming five or more players live.
@@wildstar2817 thanks👍🏻
What is a Starpass? I keep hearing this term but I can't find a definition for it anywhere.
A 'star pass' is a slang term for when the Imp targets themselves at night, dying, and a minion becomes the Imp.
It's a term borrowed from the sport of roller derby, in which the Jammer can pass the star on their helmet to the Pivot, making them the new Jammer. I'm afraid I bear responsibility for the introduction of this particular bit of parlance into Clocktower - I'm a roller derby fan and started calling the Imp self-targeting move a 'star pass' one day, and it caught on.
- Evin
ruclips.net/video/C2GuRlKFM64/видео.html
@@BloodontheClocktower Thank you so much for your reply!
At 40:00ish in if Ben had given Bardic the Spy for Kat then Evil would have been sitting pretty because. Spy explains Grolen getting a 0 and explains why Kat was not killed by the virgin (registered as evil for that) and makes Jaime look like the drunk.
Thing is, it’s very rare for a spy to actually show up as a spy to the undertaker, so it pretty much screams “the storyteller(s) are trying to convince me of a false worldview”. Which means the only believable “spy” read for an undertaker is what that player was already bluffing as.
Very interesting game, good play throughout by almost all players. Thought storytellers were way too influential here though and completely misread the game. This game had very low info by design which is fine of course, but apart from that basically the good team just had a load of traps to work out and only a weak play by the engineer to shake things up. Deck was stacked heavily against them from the start and during the game the Empath was also killed off so it was already close to GG there.
Also I don't quite understand how with this script it's not just a standard first turn move for an engineer to force a No Dashii game. With the roles as given it's not a great move here, but generally by sharing all relevant information a No Dashii puzzle turns out to be solvable.
No Dashii would only be solvable through luck, by the sheer fact that the target doesn't move and they might get lucky. Otherwise a No Dashii would just kill what little information gathering they had left, and picking it on the first turn would have further destroyed their information gathering right from the beginning, Particularly with a posioner in play, and the Drunk Virgin already damaging their information gathering. No Matter which Demon got chosen it's more about luck than deduction to be able to pin them down and take them out before they lose.
The Better move in this setup is always going to be to choose the minions so you know exactly what powers that they have and what they can do to you to look for them and hope to find them.
Even Grolen's death doesn't mean much, yes he was the Empath and yes that's a powerful Role under more favorable conditions. But he has the problem that he is isolated deep within a stack of Townsfolk, So he's getting valuable information but that information is stagnant unless they kill off a bunch of townsfolk and then they are so weakened his information about running into a minion/demon is basically too little and too late (specially since they didn't entirely trust his information and felt he was throwing shade on Malaki as misinforming his ability). His information is even more weakened when you consider the fact that Aidan was basically a hard wall against the Empath's powers being the soldier without something like the Poisoner in play to make him killable at night. Meaning you have to basically kill just about every other person around the circle to reach the targets that your really wanting to reach with his information gathering. Even if you consider Aidan Poisoned by the No Dashii, because the engineer put it into the game, and it ended up affecting Aidan the no Dashii would have no reason to kill Aidan and ruin what is an almost perfect defense against Empath discovery.
Bit late to the party here but I have a question… night one when Ben and Edd are giving information why are they having to decide if Kat as the Chef receives a 1 or a 0? As Kat isn’t drunk or poisoned surely they should be getting accurate information which would be 1. I thought players not drunk/poison get accurate information
Have a read of the Spy's ability. You'll notice that they can register as good. This means that they could show up as good to the Chef, thus giving them a 0 instead of a 1. - Ben
@@BloodontheClocktower ah definitely missed that bit when watching this one through. Thanks for the explanation
If an alchemist was on the script (and in the game), could the engineer make a spy alchemist by letting the three minions be the other three roles?
I see Engineer and Spy and think "well that is a wasted change", because the power of the spy is seeing the grimoire, which isn't really lost if changed. Then again, with little monster it's kinda fine because the killing is done via the ST not the demon. However if the engineer changes from Little Monster to anything else, it's just a win for the evil team, which seems harsh. Will have to watch and see how it actually pans out.
It's been ages since this game and I remember nothing about it. Why is changing from Lil Monsta just a win for the evil team? - Ben
@@BloodontheClocktower 'win' as in Evil gains, not 'win' as in winning the game. Sorry if that confused you. Although I am now trying to remember exactly why I said that, I think maybe because they had the spy info, and could now choose where kills go. I also may have confused how the engineer worked at the time, that was said right near the start of the video.
Also Hi Ben, been binging these games since seeing the No Rolls Barred videos. I'm not normally into playing these types of games, but enjoy watching them for some reason. Also love the explanations and reasoning going on.
Glad to hear you're enjoying our stuff. It's a little less professionally produced than NRB, but I like to think our players can be just as entertaining! - Ben
@@BloodontheClocktower While I do recognise the difference in production value, I do recognise NRB is a lot more work with all the recording and editing and stuff. Plus while I loved Tom's flowery discriptions of people's deaths, your "Iris is dead" has a grounded feel to it ;-)
Now I'm about to watch the Yaggababble showcase... after seeing another showcase... help?
I love blood on the clock tower, how many games does "daddy Ben" run? What days?
Haha. I just saw this character in the wiki today.
I have a question about the engineer's ability. If the engineer were to be played in a script with legion in it (but legion is not in play), could they make a legion demon? If so, would most of the townsfolk be changed to legion, or would there only be one legion, screwing over the evil team?
They can and most of the goodies would become evil Legion. - Ben
So if an engineer for some reason made a minion into the godfather, would you just ignore the +1/-1 outsider? Or are you obliged to turn a townsfolk into an outsider at that point? I guess you could just convert engineer into outsider.
Your first suggestion is the correct one - bracketed text *only* ever affects things before the start of the game. That text is ignored if a character is created after the start of the game.
- Evin
@@BloodontheClocktower Thank you so much for the clarification!
Legion and Engineer 😮
So choosing minions: Would you say they can only choose 2? Because they are unaware of lil Monsta and otherwise will only have 2 theoretical minions to choose, or would they then be able to choose 3. Doing it confirms a Lil Monsta and in a non Lil Monsta game, the Lil Monsta would then *have* to be in play to fit the quota of minions.
I think I may have answered my own question, but I'm still unsure mainly due to how sparse (in words) the ability is.
If an engineer selects more minions than are currently in play, the storyteller will simply discard as many of the choices as necessary to get to the number of minions in play. So in this game, the engineer chose 3 minions with lil' monsta in play, so all three minions would change, but if lil' monsta was not in play, Ben would have ignored one of the minions and only used two of them to change the minions, and not tell the engineer. So the engineer has no noticeable difference, other than that their third pick is not in play, which they (usually) cannot identify.
50:38 Schrodinger’s chat
Can the Engineer choose three of the same role for minions, make all the minions Scarlet Women, have 5 or more players alive when Lil' Monsta dies, and thus make an only child into either twins or triplets?
I don't understand the only child part, but, no, characters are not allowed to be duplicated, usually. (However, more 'Imp's and 'Fang Gu's can come into play, and 'Legion's are in play together.)
Just curious but with the Lil' Monstaers handler being "the demon", if the engineer had changed the demon to the imp wouldn't Wildstar have become the Imp? And as it is, since she's "the demon", wouldn't changing the minions have not affected her
I've loved all of these games but I think after watching it that the meta for lil monster games is that the story tellers are a 'hidden demon', the power of the story tellers choosing who dies with perfect knowledge on the red team's behalf was, in this game anyways, massively underestimated. I think that the team should have been pushed to 4vs2, not 3vs3, the story tellers deciding that a town that had all of it's most powerful proactive roles eliminated early by the story tellers would suddenly figure everything out on the last day felt unbalanced. It was great to watch, but with both the red team and the story tellers having perfect information, and the town losing theirs so quickly, i think it was heavily leveraged against them. Thank you for recording and posting it!
Pretty sure the babysitter registers as demon and minion
Could a spy carrying lil monster survive a slayer shot?
@@imcoral this is not true a spy can die to virgin be poisoned by no dashii ect it doesn't just affect information.
@@imcoral also, good players holding lil' monsta can get slayer shot anyway
Tbh Ben, North of the South coast = north in my book :P
*Some spoilers, but leading into a general 'philosophy of STing' query*:
In a Li'l Monsta game is it generally better for Storytellers to kill with perfect knowledge of the roles, or try to feign 'evil ignorance' - for want of a better word? That is, if a good player is actively trying to bait a kill from the demon, is it better to reward that or not? Obviously in this specific example it was a spy game anyway so the 'demon' would logically have perfect knowledge anyway and therefore killing in ways that are strategically best for the evil team certainly makes sense, but in a general no-spy game, I'm a little uncomfortable with thoughts that Li'l Monsta removes those strategic avenues from the good team if the ST kills with perfect knowledge, along with reducing the responsibility of Evil to learn enough to select targets (obv. poison targets and the like are still valid things to discover)
But then perhaps you could argue much the same about Spy, so maybe I'm overthinking it! It's more that from watching this game and seeing so much effort from the Good team to cover their true roles, which was entirely pointless given the type of game it ultimately was did get me thinking, and I'm not quite sure how I'd run a Monsta in the future.
As with most things, I'd recommend a balance between the two. You generally want to back evil plays, which isn't the same as killing the best targets for them. If, for example, a poisoner poisons someone because they want them to get misinformation, you generally ought to allow that misinformation to happen, even if you feel the evil team would benefit more from that player dying and not getting any information at all. - Ben
how would you run the engineer in a IRL game?
Same as online, unless running it in a weird way online. (I know some people way over-communicate during the night, which will suck for them when they play IRL.)
For example, let's say you have this script with Poisoner, Spy, and Imp as evil team:
1) Wake up Engineer (tap their knee) to see if they'll use their ability (I personally have a card that says "Use your ability?" in the bootleg version I made.)
2) Engineer nods and points to Lil Monsta on their character sheet. (Each player should have one printed out and on-hand.)
3) Give them the "Go to sleep" sign, which is swiping your hand in front of your eyes. Note this in the grimoire with the "used ability" reminder token and swapping Imp's token out.
4) Wake the Imp. Point to the Imp (I don't think the standard game has a "You are..." card like I made?) and show them the token of the Minion you chose to turn them into. Let's say Godfather to make this more informative.
5) Give them relevant new info, if any. In this case, show them the tokens of in-play Outsiders.
6) Wake the other two Minions and show all three the Lil Monsta token.
7) Wait for them to silently decide which Minion is babysitting (pointing at each other). Note this in the grim with the "Is the Demon" Lil Monsta reminder token by that Minion. Put them all to sleep and continue as normal.
If I were an Engineer in an IRL game and thought there'd be either 2 or 3 Minions in play, I'd strongly point (avoiding making noise) to my first choice, strongly point to my second choice, pause, shrug at the ST, then hesitantly point at the third choice...and just hope the ST gets the message that I really want these two in play and "if there's 3, maybe put that one in?" Like Ben said, it's up to ST if they'll honor that, but I honestly think any good ST will honor a reasonable request if they can to make sure the game is fun.
I'm not sure if there's something specific you had questions about. Hopefully I didn't miss a step or get one wrong. I haven't seen an official almanac or anything for Lil Monsta. I'm just going off what I know from watching it played. The key thing is: the entire night is silent and mostly consists of pointing at players, pointing at character sheets, nodding/shaking head for "yes"/"no", thumbs up/down for "good"/"evil", showing tokens, and the communication cards like "Your Demon is..." Keep in mind the ST should also be waiting for the player to acknowledge every action. i.e. when they show Imp the Godfather token, the Imp player should look at it and then nod to ST to signify "Yes, I understand". The way I like handling stuff like showing Godfather which Outsiders are in is handing the player the tokens and waiting for them to hand them back. (I do this with Dreamer, Demon bluffs, etc. My personal preference. You could also show them one at a time and wait for them to nod between showing each one.)
Hope my wall o text is helpful.
Why have a ravenkeeper in a spy/monsta game? The spy would tell the demon who the ravenkeeper is so they'd never be killed by the demon, and storytellers would never pick the ravenkeeper to die in a monsta game. Kinda just seems like nullifying a player for no reason
Storytellers will totally kill a Ravenkeeper! They're there to keep the game balanced, so if they think good could use a boost they'll make kills that help the good team. And a spy might not be able to tell the demon in time, or maybe the Ravenkeeper is poisoned so they *want* them to die... there are always possibilities. Plus a Ravenkeeper not getting killed can also be good information in and of itself.
@@andsailedcalmlyon In addition, the engineer can make an active demon and even with a Spy if they note their info down wrongly and put the RK as the drunk they're liable to murk them.
Plus if Good builds a world where they get all evils wrong they (Either ST or Demon) can totally make it look like the RK is the Drunk when they aren't.
Also if the RK is poisoned or it's a Vortox script Good need to do a lot of work to decide whether it is useful info or not.
In short the Ravenkeeper is an excellent example of how flexible Blood on the Clocktower is even with that many codified roles.