I think you have to severely limit them if you're an ST. Tremere attracts way too many meta players who will be nice roleplayers until they build up a few of the overpowered paths that cost comparatively little xp for the benefits they give, and then next thing you know you've got the Tremere guy dominating or burning to death every problem you introduce to the chronicle. At that point, it's very tempting as a storyteller to start announcing dice rolls against the character, because his penchant for burning kindred to death has attracted an Assamite contract on his head. You can fudge the results and let the player win if you think they're capable of learning a lesson. If they've shown no remorse for ruining your chronicle though, just kill their character off.
initially? Tremere was one of the most powerfull mages of his time and in between the foundation of the order and the convertion into vampires of house tremere is just a "tiny" timeframe from ~100 years And if they were able to almost take over the order in that timeframe i would not consider them as being weak and in the end they anihilated an entire house
Just one more thing - why should the tremere have been a weak group of mages? They almost took over the order and are described as one of the most powerfull houses equals to tytalus and flambeau - thats the books so i would like to know why you think otherwise
Yes, they do have a lot of enemies. In the cannon it would seem the only clan that would look upon them friendly would be the ventrue, though that is clearly a relationship of convience. The salubri antitribu are an odd deal, at some point I'll be doing a vid.
@woodwwad One thing I have been thinking of though is to change the blood bound thing to being a like the vauldier for the sabbat for the tremere cup, mechanically speaking anyways, ie when you drink from the cup you roll a d10 for each of the 7 to determine how loyal you are to them. now in character it is a bit different but mechanically speaking it would the same or at least similar to each other. It is a little diffrent, but I am curious what you think of it.
We have a guy playing tremere... He was doing pretty good, but then we ended up time traveling to about 300 bc and there were no tremere... He ended up claiming to be some other clan and used his powers to pretty much force us to go along with it. Then our malkavian player used restructure (the malkavian has survived to 1197 ad) on him to turn him into a conformist. The player hates it, but its so funny to watch that change happen.
It would only make sense that their magic was the best. It was the one that was created first (the rest of those systems were based off it). Game design wise, not story.
@herkles1 They are called warlocks but it doesn't seem to mean much, other than maybe breaking an oath of the OOH. Don't get me wrong, I think that is a fine idea in terms of adding something to them, I was just mentioned that it doesn't seem to be based on anything that's been described, how they work. Of course, if a game if you added that detail, it could work out very nicely to add a bit of different flavor. I've been reading a lot about warlocks for the d20 class I'm working on.
@ArphenMaethor Have you read the blood treachery book? It goes into a lot of detail on Tremere vs mages, I found it interesting; although, it is oddly written. I think it would be very hard to tremere, let alone ghouls to find a freshly awakened mage. The ghoul would need 'spex 2 to even have the slightest chance. & it would be amazingly dangerous if other mages found him trying something, good way for that chantry to start a war. That being said, I'm sure it has happened.
@ArphenMaethor It certainly does create an interesting plot hook for a game. Even more interesting if it is something the players have to try to do themselves. The there is the other problem. How does the ghoul feel about finding someone who is obviously better than the ghoul to acquire the embrace the ghoul so badly wants. A classic catch 22.
@ArphenMaethor Tremere have been around for about 1,000 years. You do bring up a great point about young tremere being much lower gen than other clans. I could give you dozens of reasons why they'd no longer be 5th gen but it does make an 8th gen neonate seem perfectly responsible. Excellent points.
@ArphenMaethor Well the first reason is elder vampires become more & more fearful of younger vampires trying to take their blood, position, ect. They like to have others a good bit lower on the chain than themselves. While they do want their clan to be strong, they don't want the children to overwhelm them or have enough power to have a voice.
@woodwwad I think you might have briefly mentioned it but you focused more on how tremere do not work in a regular group then how one can structure an all-tremere game. but that would require a whole sepreat vid. also I think the tremere should have 2 weaknesses IMO, 1 is the whole being 1 step blood-bound, the 2nd is something such as having an eerie presence. this makes them a little better to me, but could just be me. also how playable do you consider being blood-bound is, of any step?
Ah yes, the Tremere. Such a tricky clan to play out. I recently made a Tremere for this comic I am making and was wondering how to portray her. Now I have a clear idea. And this information ought to bring interesting things to the relationships and lack there of with the other characters in the comic :3
@herkles1 I think that would work well, the only thing I'd say is make sure you take a bunch of steps to make it really different from the vauldier as that creates a bunch of problems but using that as inspiration for a chance could work well & if anyone can unlock secrets of the blood it is this clan.
Thank you very much for this video =) For playing the tremere i recommend that the GM and players inform themselves a bit on the order of hermes since the tremere sort of still are like a hermetic house and that occult flair is important. I for myself tend to have tremer ghouls looking for newly awakened mages to convince them, that they should better become vampires and show off some power to get the freshly awakened as neonates - what do you think about that? (besides its hard to find awakened
After a bad session with worse players and worst stupid actions on their side...your videos are the reason i continue playing vampire and give it another try with a new group. Those vids brighten up my day...if just more players (and GMs) would have brains and in depth characters... (and plot lines)
@woodwwad yea,I add more details to it in my games. the main reason I have this is because it gives them a weakness in the same method that all the other clans do, ie by blood. I still give them the bound to the cup weakness though.
ah the tremere one of my favorite clans. I love the tremere and everything about them. Though I do agree with you, they make difficult characters to play. however, they can be great fun if played right. personally, I think when it comes to playing tremere, that the group should be an all-tremere group it makes more sense that way IMO. I am curious what you think of the tremere antitribu as well?
@herkles1 I think they are all dead ;) The antis worked pretty well, I guess. Did I forget to mention Tremer should be all Tremer groups? I meant to go over that.
@thespiritcoyote Yes, there needs to be massive amounts of work done to create a believable chantry. The description must be thorough & interesting (although, it can take many different forms) and the vampires inside must be detailed with their own motivations, politics & of course the will of those who drive it need to be well understood, so the course their influence takes on the story is seamless.
@thegentinquestion Thanks brother. I was thinking you'd already done them. I actually looked for a video of your on them, so I could send this is a video response but obviously didn't find one.
@woodwwad well one of the names they are called are warlocks I believe. As you say in the video the tremere may not be the nicest guy or the most charismatic but they are good manipulators. eerie presence IMO is to represent the sort of unsettling nature of being a clan of blood-mages.
@herkles1 Yes, all tremer would be the way to go for certain. I think a blood-bound can work fine, as long as the player understands how to sell, it'll work. I've never been blood-bound in a game (other than valdery) but I've blood bound others to me & never had a problem. Why an eerie presence. Mage, in WOD, don't have anything like that. To me, that sounds like something a warlock would have.
@woodwwad well i habe the book here but i havent read it yet - my group is more into mage right now though i am planning a medieval campaign where the massasa wars start and the tremere become vampires - but the players will be mages. Anyway you are right it is dangerous and hard (until the awakened wreaks some havoc with his powers) but i thought worth the effort for the tremere may seek ways to adapt the creative magic and bring it into their undead society in some form - research
Just to add my thought here - for the viewers. Tremere diablerised Saulot -> became a 3rd Gen. Vampire himself and after that embraced a lot of other new vampires from house Tremere -> there are, still, a lot of 4th Gen. Tremere around. The Clanbook says the Tremere embrace from a cauldron of blood which contains the blood of some Tremere. Since Clan comes first and they want a STRONG clan -> cauldron contains 4th gen blood -> most Tremere around should be 5th gen Vampires for a STRONG Clan
and - there may - be ways to spot someone capable of awakening and watching him from the shadows until he awakens - maybe the ghoul is his teacher in university or the leader of the occult society the potential neonate belongs to. Auspex could work some times as well but i trust into the "knowledge" of those tremere who have been mages themselves since they may know the "signs" that may lead to an awakening without use of auspex
While I agree with what you are saying it is worth noting that while all actual Tremere are in the pyramid, not all are completely ambitious and constantly looking to pull one over on the others. There are some of Tremere that are quite powerful and yet still a lower rank in the pyramid. It isn't extremely common, but it bears mentioning. Lastly, if (and this is a very big if) there is a multi-clan game with a Tremere in it, there is plenty of storytelling opportunity concerning loyalty.
Why exactly was Saulot evil? Watching the Gent. Gamer's videos on him seem to indicate that he was an alright bloke. I get it that he exploited Tremere, but one of the scenarios in the Ghenna book indicates that it works out for the best. I mean, he and his lot (the contentious Salubri - of which, you mentioned, you aren't a fan) were the healers and proponents of humanity of Caine's days, right? Great video, by the by.
My player started with Path of Blood level 5 and had a lot of melee dex etc. Was a Mary Sue character. However the player didnt understand the path of blood at all and only used Theft of Vitae. Then said he was way to weak and needed more exp
Though I do agree that Tremere are generally going to be kept away from the group, new bloods may not be as cautious, and new Tremere may not be as knowledge hungry and ambitious. I agree that Tremere in a coterie with other clans is rare, but it can happen without ignoring the lore, the players and ST just need to remember to apply that as an element of the story.
@woodwwad. I see your logic in all tremere cabals. However, you need the Brujah/Gangrel meat shields for frontline combat. You need the sneaky rogue Malk/Nos info gatherers. A group of 4 or 5 squishy warlocks wouldn't last long versus a pack of Garou, Inquisitors or Brujah antitribu. Armed Ghouls with Potency, Fortitude, & Celerity are still meat on the table for real antagonists. If Clan Tremere hadn't buddied up with the Ventrue & others, they wouldn't have survived the dark ages.
@woodwwad Well i thought - since its a very difficult task to do - that the ghoul is already experienced and thats sort of his final test to become embraced himself so there shouldnt bee too much bad feelings since he will be embraced too. And his master can always tell him that the awakened will have to start as ghoul himself - getting some nice ghoulish powers and the possibility of immortality may also lure the awakened into the trap and tremere are manipulators after all ^^
@woodwwad But as Tremere generation diesnt count much - with thaumaturgy you can temporarely change it to whatever gen you want to be. Then, the Tremeres power is thaumaturgy and the elders will ALWAYS have the edge here since they know more secrets, more paths, are better in it and there is the loalty...i think from all the clans the Tremere elders have the least reasons to fear their children. Their weak thaumaturgy wont overwhelm the elders powers.
They could be interesting together. I think there is a lot of interesting ideas you can have with salubri. The more I think about the tremere the more I think their creator story makes it hard to see them in the camarilla. I think a lot of those ideas were missteps.
Good vid. Personally, the fake/public chantry should look the way you described. Stereotypical wizard's tomb. The Hidden, Real chantry should reflect the various flavors of Thaum. My Biothaum warlock had a lab that resembled a Mi-Gos workshop. Complete with sabbat brains in jars. A Tech based tremere has servers & monitors everywhere. Spirit path guys have skrying mirrors & chalk diagrams. BTW, you can't vivisect a Black Spiral Dancer for info at the elysium, get him to my lab...
@woodwwad Thanks =) If you dont mind, i would like to hear / read some of those reasons. May grant new insights. To be honest i would think that most newer Tremere are 6th Gen, not 5th, but to me 6th Gen sounds acceptable - not in terms of gamebalance cause it would fuck things up, but in terms of story and background. Tremere care THAT much for their clan and after all, Generation is not that important in the pyramid. You need to master thaumaturgy anyway and thats your REAL power.
@woodwwad + if the generation gap is big, the neonates have more reasons to diablerise their elders. if there is only 1 gen between the gains of doing so dont justify the deed. If you gain lets say 5 gens...well i would definitely think about doing it ;) And then again the Tremere have a lot of power over their children - maybe even blood bond, and the pyramid pretty much prevents overthrowing the elders. The fights occur between Tremere of the same rank not above.
@woodwwad because they left out all bad clans and tightened up the system a touch also there is so little back story to everything you're not gunna be punished ( or should be) for making a character with a bad theme
After all, the Clans needed some MILLENIA to get to 13th Gen. The Tremere only had a few centuries - why should they already have reached 13th Gen? Doesnt sound logic to me...more like game balancing. After all Thaumaturgy should, in Theory, also become more powerfull with lower Gen (since the blood contains more Quintessence) and again for Tremere - Clan and its strength comes first so why embracing new Tremere from any weaker source? That would weaken the clan after all
One of the things I like about VtM is unlike many games I see, I look at the available content and am largely content with what is presented. Most other games, there's always a nagging thing or two I must change or throw out in favor of something custom made. As far as Clans go, all are intriguing, but the Tremere are by far my choice favorite.
@ArphenMaethor But remember Tremere are dicks, I think it would be more true to the clan to have them hint the ghoul will get embraced but then embrace the mage instead & jack the ghoul. Could be an interesting plot & maybe a reason the ghoul leaks some info about the chantry, maybe even to the PCs.
@woodwwad A very, very poor one = u =; I draw for myself and my friends, really, on deviantart. For the fun of it. At times I wish I could develope to a fully fledged artist and that to be my profession, though.
@woodwwad "But remember Tremere are dicks" Not always, bro. I once played an 8 humanity, High Social, Bio Thaum Tremere with almost no dominate, maxed out Thaum & Auspex, some Fortitude & Celerity, and a few rituals. If you think a half orc is an outcast, try role playing a nice guy, boy scout tremere. For two years I was a hated pariah. Pulling myself up by my bootstraps, I fought the good fight alone. Using bio thaum to heal kindred & Aupex to root out Sabbat, I became indispensable.
@woodwwad Completly true. I dont like the giovanni much to be honest but in some ways they are very similiar to the tremere, which i like the most. But its that difference that is important. So generation wise it is logic that the giovanni have the lowest.
I think you have to severely limit them if you're an ST. Tremere attracts way too many meta players who will be nice roleplayers until they build up a few of the overpowered paths that cost comparatively little xp for the benefits they give, and then next thing you know you've got the Tremere guy dominating or burning to death every problem you introduce to the chronicle. At that point, it's very tempting as a storyteller to start announcing dice rolls against the character, because his penchant for burning kindred to death has attracted an Assamite contract on his head. You can fudge the results and let the player win if you think they're capable of learning a lesson. If they've shown no remorse for ruining your chronicle though, just kill their character off.
Excellent advice for newbies like me, much appreciated
initially? Tremere was one of the most powerfull mages of his time and in between the foundation of the order and the convertion into vampires of house tremere is just a "tiny" timeframe from ~100 years And if they were able to almost take over the order in that timeframe i would not consider them as being weak and in the end they anihilated an entire house
Just one more thing - why should the tremere have been a weak group of mages? They almost took over the order and are described as one of the most powerfull houses equals to tytalus and flambeau - thats the books so i would like to know why you think otherwise
Yes, they do have a lot of enemies. In the cannon it would seem the only clan that would look upon them friendly would be the ventrue, though that is clearly a relationship of convience. The salubri antitribu are an odd deal, at some point I'll be doing a vid.
@Burori1 Glad to be of help. Are you an artist?
Don't underestimate the ventrue a lot of players do but there is a reason they are the kings.
@woodwwad One thing I have been thinking of though is to change the blood bound thing to being a like the vauldier for the sabbat for the tremere cup, mechanically speaking anyways, ie when you drink from the cup you roll a d10 for each of the 7 to determine how loyal you are to them. now in character it is a bit different but mechanically speaking it would the same or at least similar to each other.
It is a little diffrent, but I am curious what you think of it.
We have a guy playing tremere... He was doing pretty good, but then we ended up time traveling to about 300 bc and there were no tremere... He ended up claiming to be some other clan and used his powers to pretty much force us to go along with it. Then our malkavian player used restructure (the malkavian has survived to 1197 ad) on him to turn him into a conformist. The player hates it, but its so funny to watch that change happen.
that's just crazy!
O boy, I hate time travelling games.
It would only make sense that their magic was the best. It was the one that was created first (the rest of those systems were based off it). Game design wise, not story.
@ArphenMaethor At some point I think I will. I'm trying to find the time to get any videos up right now.
@herkles1 They are called warlocks but it doesn't seem to mean much, other than maybe breaking an oath of the OOH. Don't get me wrong, I think that is a fine idea in terms of adding something to them, I was just mentioned that it doesn't seem to be based on anything that's been described, how they work. Of course, if a game if you added that detail, it could work out very nicely to add a bit of different flavor. I've been reading a lot about warlocks for the d20 class I'm working on.
@TheWhitmore I'll do a vid on the Salubri at some point. It is way too long to try to comment on.
@ArphenMaethor Have you read the blood treachery book? It goes into a lot of detail on Tremere vs mages, I found it interesting; although, it is oddly written. I think it would be very hard to tremere, let alone ghouls to find a freshly awakened mage. The ghoul would need 'spex 2 to even have the slightest chance. & it would be amazingly dangerous if other mages found him trying something, good way for that chantry to start a war. That being said, I'm sure it has happened.
@ArphenMaethor It certainly does create an interesting plot hook for a game. Even more interesting if it is something the players have to try to do themselves. The there is the other problem. How does the ghoul feel about finding someone who is obviously better than the ghoul to acquire the embrace the ghoul so badly wants. A classic catch 22.
@ArphenMaethor Tremere have been around for about 1,000 years. You do bring up a great point about young tremere being much lower gen than other clans. I could give you dozens of reasons why they'd no longer be 5th gen but it does make an 8th gen neonate seem perfectly responsible. Excellent points.
@ArphenMaethor Well the first reason is elder vampires become more & more fearful of younger vampires trying to take their blood, position, ect. They like to have others a good bit lower on the chain than themselves. While they do want their clan to be strong, they don't want the children to overwhelm them or have enough power to have a voice.
@woodwwad I think you might have briefly mentioned it but you focused more on how tremere do not work in a regular group then how one can structure an all-tremere game. but that would require a whole sepreat vid.
also I think the tremere should have 2 weaknesses IMO, 1 is the whole being 1 step blood-bound, the 2nd is something such as having an eerie presence. this makes them a little better to me, but could just be me.
also how playable do you consider being blood-bound is, of any step?
Ah yes, the Tremere. Such a tricky clan to play out. I recently made a Tremere for this comic I am making and was wondering how to portray her. Now I have a clear idea. And this information ought to bring interesting things to the relationships and lack there of with the other characters in the comic :3
@herkles1 I think that would work well, the only thing I'd say is make sure you take a bunch of steps to make it really different from the vauldier as that creates a bunch of problems but using that as inspiration for a chance could work well & if anyone can unlock secrets of the blood it is this clan.
Thank you very much for this video =) For playing the tremere i recommend that the GM and players inform themselves a bit on the order of hermes since the tremere sort of still are like a hermetic house and that occult flair is important. I for myself tend to have tremer ghouls looking for newly awakened mages to convince them, that they should better become vampires and show off some power to get the freshly awakened as neonates - what do you think about that? (besides its hard to find awakened
After a bad session with worse players and worst stupid actions on their side...your videos are the reason i continue playing vampire and give it another try with a new group. Those vids brighten up my day...if just more players (and GMs) would have brains and in depth characters... (and plot lines)
@nemitz71 because of the Tremere?
@woodwwad yea,I add more details to it in my games. the main reason I have this is because it gives them a weakness in the same method that all the other clans do, ie by blood. I still give them the bound to the cup weakness though.
ah the tremere one of my favorite clans. I love the tremere and everything about them. Though I do agree with you, they make difficult characters to play. however, they can be great fun if played right. personally, I think when it comes to playing tremere, that the group should be an all-tremere group it makes more sense that way IMO.
I am curious what you think of the tremere antitribu as well?
@ArphenMaethor The same argument should also be applied to the giovanni as they are the youngest clan, several centuries younger than the Tremere .
@herkles1 I think they are all dead ;)
The antis worked pretty well, I guess.
Did I forget to mention Tremer should be all Tremer groups? I meant to go over that.
@Demolitiondude Some are, some aren't. It depends on how they are structured.
@thespiritcoyote Yes, there needs to be massive amounts of work done to create a believable chantry. The description must be thorough & interesting (although, it can take many different forms) and the vampires inside must be detailed with their own motivations, politics & of course the will of those who drive it need to be well understood, so the course their influence takes on the story is seamless.
@thegentinquestion Thanks brother. I was thinking you'd already done them. I actually looked for a video of your on them, so I could send this is a video response but obviously didn't find one.
@woodwwad well one of the names they are called are warlocks I believe. As you say in the video the tremere may not be the nicest guy or the most charismatic but they are good manipulators. eerie presence IMO is to represent the sort of unsettling nature of being a clan of blood-mages.
@herkles1 Yes, all tremer would be the way to go for certain. I think a blood-bound can work fine, as long as the player understands how to sell, it'll work. I've never been blood-bound in a game (other than valdery) but I've blood bound others to me & never had a problem. Why an eerie presence. Mage, in WOD, don't have anything like that. To me, that sounds like something a warlock would have.
@Vdecepticon thanks
You should do a video on Saulot after all ^^
@QuinnSilver yes, they certainly are
@woodwwad Sounds great! You're doing a stellar job.
@woodwwad well i habe the book here but i havent read it yet - my group is more into mage right now though i am planning a medieval campaign where the massasa wars start and the tremere become vampires - but the players will be mages.
Anyway you are right it is dangerous and hard (until the awakened wreaks some havoc with his powers) but i thought worth the effort for the tremere may seek ways to adapt the creative magic and bring it into their undead society in some form - research
Just to add my thought here - for the viewers. Tremere diablerised Saulot -> became a 3rd Gen. Vampire himself and after that embraced a lot of other new vampires from house Tremere -> there are, still, a lot of 4th Gen. Tremere around. The Clanbook says the Tremere embrace from a cauldron of blood which contains the blood of some Tremere. Since Clan comes first and they want a STRONG clan -> cauldron contains 4th gen blood -> most Tremere around should be 5th gen Vampires for a STRONG Clan
and - there may - be ways to spot someone capable of awakening and watching him from the shadows until he awakens - maybe the ghoul is his teacher in university or the leader of the occult society the potential neonate belongs to. Auspex could work some times as well but i trust into the "knowledge" of those tremere who have been mages themselves since they may know the "signs" that may lead to an awakening without use of auspex
While I agree with what you are saying it is worth noting that while all actual Tremere are in the pyramid, not all are completely ambitious and constantly looking to pull one over on the others. There are some of Tremere that are quite powerful and yet still a lower rank in the pyramid. It isn't extremely common, but it bears mentioning. Lastly, if (and this is a very big if) there is a multi-clan game with a Tremere in it, there is plenty of storytelling opportunity concerning loyalty.
@NordtheBarbarian they are very interesting.
@ArtisticSoul347 They certainly are shady, you are right though, they should have a great amount of individuality.
Why exactly was Saulot evil? Watching the Gent. Gamer's videos on him seem to indicate that he was an alright bloke. I get it that he exploited Tremere, but one of the scenarios in the Ghenna book indicates that it works out for the best.
I mean, he and his lot (the contentious Salubri - of which, you mentioned, you aren't a fan) were the healers and proponents of humanity of Caine's days, right?
Great video, by the by.
My player started with Path of Blood level 5 and had a lot of melee dex etc. Was a Mary Sue character. However the player didnt understand the path of blood at all and only used Theft of Vitae. Then said he was way to weak and needed more exp
Though I do agree that Tremere are generally going to be kept away from the group, new bloods may not be as cautious, and new Tremere may not be as knowledge hungry and ambitious. I agree that Tremere in a coterie with other clans is rare, but it can happen without ignoring the lore, the players and ST just need to remember to apply that as an element of the story.
@TheWhitmore thanks
@ArphenMaethor That would certainly follow logically.
@woodwwad.
I see your logic in all tremere cabals. However, you need the Brujah/Gangrel meat shields for frontline combat. You need the sneaky rogue Malk/Nos info gatherers. A group of 4 or 5 squishy warlocks wouldn't last long versus a pack of Garou, Inquisitors or Brujah antitribu. Armed Ghouls with Potency, Fortitude, & Celerity are still meat on the table for real antagonists. If Clan Tremere hadn't buddied up with the Ventrue & others, they wouldn't have survived the dark ages.
@vynterbone That wasn't a serious comment ;)
Yes, a vampire that is too much of a nice guy certainly can become a pariah.
@woodwwad Well i thought - since its a very difficult task to do - that the ghoul is already experienced and thats sort of his final test to become embraced himself so there shouldnt bee too much bad feelings since he will be embraced too. And his master can always tell him that the awakened will have to start as ghoul himself - getting some nice ghoulish powers and the possibility of immortality may also lure the awakened into the trap and tremere are manipulators after all ^^
@woodwwad But as Tremere generation diesnt count much - with thaumaturgy you can temporarely change it to whatever gen you want to be. Then, the Tremeres power is thaumaturgy and the elders will ALWAYS have the edge here since they know more secrets, more paths, are better in it and there is the loalty...i think from all the clans the Tremere elders have the least reasons to fear their children. Their weak thaumaturgy wont overwhelm the elders powers.
I've played a Koldun before, it is pretty weak as far as a discipline goes.
They could be interesting together. I think there is a lot of interesting ideas you can have with salubri. The more I think about the tremere the more I think their creator story makes it hard to see them in the camarilla. I think a lot of those ideas were missteps.
@hammeredshitsteak Ah, the Ass Amites. I've recorded a video on them too. Did 4 videos tonight. I'll be uploading them over the next week.
Good vid. Personally, the fake/public chantry should look the way you described. Stereotypical wizard's tomb. The Hidden, Real chantry should reflect the various flavors of Thaum. My Biothaum warlock had a lab that resembled a Mi-Gos workshop. Complete with sabbat brains in jars. A Tech based tremere has servers & monitors everywhere. Spirit path guys have skrying mirrors & chalk diagrams. BTW, you can't vivisect a Black Spiral Dancer for info at the elysium, get him to my lab...
@Burori1 Send me your user name on deviantart so I can take a look at your pics.
@woodwwad Thanks =)
If you dont mind, i would like to hear / read some of those reasons. May grant new insights. To be honest i would think that most newer Tremere are 6th Gen, not 5th, but to me 6th Gen sounds acceptable - not in terms of gamebalance cause it would fuck things up, but in terms of story and background. Tremere care THAT much for their clan and after all, Generation is not that important in the pyramid. You need to master thaumaturgy anyway and thats your REAL power.
@woodwwad + if the generation gap is big, the neonates have more reasons to diablerise their elders. if there is only 1 gen between the gains of doing so dont justify the deed. If you gain lets say 5 gens...well i would definitely think about doing it ;)
And then again the Tremere have a lot of power over their children - maybe even blood bond, and the pyramid pretty much prevents overthrowing the elders. The fights occur between Tremere of the same rank not above.
@woodwwad because they left out all bad clans and tightened up the system a touch also there is so little back story to everything you're not gunna be punished ( or should be) for making a character with a bad theme
After all, the Clans needed some MILLENIA to get to 13th Gen. The Tremere only had a few centuries - why should they already have reached 13th Gen? Doesnt sound logic to me...more like game balancing. After all Thaumaturgy should, in Theory, also become more powerfull with lower Gen (since the blood contains more Quintessence) and again for Tremere - Clan and its strength comes first so why embracing new Tremere from any weaker source? That would weaken the clan after all
One of the things I like about VtM is unlike many games I see, I look at the available content and am largely content with what is presented. Most other games, there's always a nagging thing or two I must change or throw out in favor of something custom made. As far as Clans go, all are intriguing, but the Tremere are by far my choice favorite.
@ArphenMaethor But remember Tremere are dicks, I think it would be more true to the clan to have them hint the ghoul will get embraced but then embrace the mage instead & jack the ghoul. Could be an interesting plot & maybe a reason the ghoul leaks some info about the chantry, maybe even to the PCs.
@woodwwad A very, very poor one = u =; I draw for myself and my friends, really, on deviantart. For the fun of it. At times I wish I could develope to a fully fledged artist and that to be my profession, though.
@woodwwad "But remember Tremere are dicks"
Not always, bro. I once played an 8 humanity, High Social, Bio Thaum Tremere with almost no dominate, maxed out Thaum & Auspex, some Fortitude & Celerity, and a few rituals.
If you think a half orc is an outcast, try role playing a nice guy, boy scout tremere. For two years I was a hated pariah. Pulling myself up by my bootstraps, I fought the good fight alone. Using bio thaum to heal kindred & Aupex to root out Sabbat, I became indispensable.
@woodwwad Completly true. I dont like the giovanni much to be honest but in some ways they are very similiar to the tremere, which i like the most. But its that difference that is important. So generation wise it is logic that the giovanni have the lowest.
this is why i moved on to nwod, at first i thought i would hate nwod ..... but hey i found it fun some how