What If America had Medieval Civilizations?
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- Опубликовано: 7 фев 2025
- Today we draw an alternate history scenario- the continental USA with dark age technology, civilizations, and kingdoms. Just like Crusader Kingdoms 3 mod After the End! The states that appear here mirror the economies, geopolitics, and history of Feudal England and France, Vikings, China, the Middle East, Mongols, and More! It's deeply saddening that many Native American civilizations in mainland America have been stamped out by European colonization, like the Eastern Woodland peoples, Cahokian Mississippians, Pueblos, Comanches, etc; so we never did get to see what they'd look like if they had risen to the technological and social scale of ancient old-world civilizations. So today, let's just look at the geography and politics of some hypothetical medieval American nations, and embrace the tradition of armchair map-making.
Map used for USA maps in this video: visualwallmaps...
Reading on Native American economies, trade, and societies that informed this video:
docs.google.co...
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Intro/Outro: Overcast Snow
New England/North East: On the Ship
Atlantic South / Georgia: Home Sweet Home
Florida / Caribbean: Daggerfall, Bonus Unused Track
Appalachia / Tennessee: Theme 4, Bonus Unused Track
Great Lakes / Michigan: Swimming
Mississippi Valley / Chicago / Great Plains: Palace, Theme 25, Fighter Guild Shop
Khan Governor Pritzker Song: Chinggis Khaanii Magtaal [Trap Remix], remixed from Batzorig Vaanchig
Rocky Mountains / Nevada: Theme 30
South West / New Mexico: Daggerfall Towns
California: Theme 8
Pacific Northwest / Seattle / Alaska: Swimming 2, 2023 remake
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This content is made for teens and adults
What's good yall, thanks for checking out my alternate history video! A couple answers to things that people have commented about:
Q: Where'd the horses come from?
A: At 0:15, I posit the scenario that the US has all the technology, animals, and scale of institutions as the medieval old world, including horses. It wasn't too direct, though.
Q: But the Americas already had grand indigenous civilizations during the medieval period?
A: I mean "Medieval" as in the advanced types of technology and statecraft that old-world civilizations had, particularly its relationship with geography. I had a more accurate title for this video, but RUclips's algorithm did not pick it up, so unfortunately I had to make it punchier and less directly accurate to the scenario. I also think that it would've been disrespectful for me to try to predict the potential futures of Native American civilizations, as I had limited time to research and make this video. That's why I didn't specifically explore how the Iroquois, Mississippians, Pueblo, etc would've developed without European colonialism.
Q: What about Canada, Mexico, and South America??
A: ....maybe we can make this into a series?
Q: The channel WhatIfAltHist has a very similar video, did you copy him?
A: No, I've never seen that video. I hate that content because the creator devoted himself to ahistorical right wing propaganda, instead of lighthearted alternate history. If he and I came to similar conclusions, then I'll give him props on having a good understanding of geography for this same alternate history scenario.
There's also a lot of people being racist against Native Americans in this comment section, so please, kindly f*ck off.
Unfortunately it is not unusual for history, not just alt-History, channels to attract the right-wing throwbacks.
Maybe if your video (title and intro) was more explicitly worded: *_What if_** Old World medieval civilization was projected onto North America geography.*
Q:could you do an alternate history for Africa? Like what if the Sahara Was Green?
What happened to lake corcoran
I think a continent defining event would be the introduction of the horse. horses would be first introduced on the west coast because of the Alaskan Vikings pillaging Asia. then eventually work their way into the plains. which I would think lead into a Genghis khan like event where Dakota khan sweeps over the east coast taking everything but southern Florida and the northern Canadian forest.
Then Dakota khan dies from bad lobster
you’re not far off from the truth. Do SAmerican next.
My only criticism would be that leaving Canada and Mexico out of the equation was a huge waste of potential.
Need a part 2
Literally. Both countries have historic cities that were fortified a long time ago and would be perfect for imagining in a medieval setting.
Examples from Canada:
Louisbourg, Nova Scotia
Québec City, Québec
Examples from México:
San Francisco de Campeche, Campeche
México City
@@jimjimmers8571 literally everything Mayan and Aztec.
Yeh, when he started talking on the Pueblo nations states, I immediately started thinking about potential conflicts with Aztecs or some relative empire from the south that may decide to move upwards
Also horses didn’t exist in the Americas so an American “khanate” would be impossible
We'd find evidence of the Alaskan Vikings in Japan somehow
Yes
Yes
Absolutely. We'd probably see Alaskan raids in Japan and Korea along with trade. In fact it's probably how most old world tech and culture will find it's way to America. Also means no disease when the Europeans inevitably Arive.
Yall are gonna love the Haida…
@@twilighttricksterXXInorth American colonial era but without disease being a factor is such an incredibly different world alone. America would likely still be 13 states at best and would have wayyyyy more native American influence. Think mexico with the local natives and Spaniards
There is a CK3 Mod called After the End which is pretty much this. Although it is set in a future where we have regressed back to medieval level of technology. It has a lot of fun taking modern American cultures and Medievalizing them.
Was about to comment exactly this.
@@costantinochianale4904 that mod is so fun! I love defending my desert kingdom of Neomexico against raiders from the Great Plains
The mod is mentioned in the description
The CK2 version is also fun.
Bro forgot the superior ck2 version
Least unhinged alt historian
At least this is an interesting flavour of unhinged, as opposed to the ultranationalist wank material that unhinged alt historians usually make
I actually appreciated that he was actually respectful and mentally sane ❤
The idea of Alaskan Vikings is equally awesome and terrifying.
We might even have a reverse Newfoundland situation, where Medieval Alaskan Vikings make it all the way to Hokkaido and set up a short-lived colony there.
Edit: Or even a reverse Varangian situations where Alaskan Vikings make their way inland and found the equivelent of Kievan Rus on the Canadian prairie.
Look up the Haida people, you’re in for a surprise.
The idea of Greenlandics Mongols is empovering and fills with determination
I don't think a Varangian situation is very possible considering there are no major Pacific Rivers which easily connect to the inland regions. There's the Columbia River, but unlike the rivers of the Baltic, the Columbia's headwaters are in the mountains. Maybe if the climate was warmer, the Alaskan Vikings could sail northeast and enter the Mackenzie River, sailing southwards through the Great Slave Lake and into the inland plains from there. But that's the only realistic way it could happen imo.
Whatever you say lil n
I live in Alaska, I am only a teen but my buddies an i all want huge beards. We are Vikings
15:37 You've pretty much described Portland's worst nightmare
Also I should point out that the Haida people often raided settlements across the PNW, essentially making them like the Alaskan [Canadian] Vikings you mentioned
(Nonetheless, I now wish to see an EU4 mod based on something like this)
Here’s already a CK3 mod thats literally this.
Love your videos bro
@baneofbanes Theres also an EU4 mod based on the CK2/3 mod
THERE IS MOD CALLED AFTER THE END FOR CK3
try alki its really good as long as you ignore how the map looks
LOOKING AT IT FROM A REALISITIC POINT (& also explain how native America did kinda have medieval vibes):
1. the Southeast Belt kinda already did happen. The Ocute and many other paramount kingdoms Hernande De Soto encountered were along this area. We could see their population develop further, perhaps Ocute and the Cofitachequi (who were almost always at war, think England and France), could finally finish their war (think England and France).
2. The Great Lakes I could definitely see evolving into something like that, but a interesting feature is that most of the Great Lakes region were controlled by a member of the Three Fires Alliance. Perhaps this league could centralize as cities develop larger and larger? They were already settled, and had a great way of farming, so it could happen. A petun lord in the 16th century did centralize the Neutral Confederacy into a kingdom of sorts, potentially others may follow.
3. The Mississippians tried that. The Little Ice Age hit them hard (along with other factors), but after the fall of Cahokia and the other big cities, more democratic traditions did arise, systems and legends in place that were made to avoid a centralization of power ever again. They could still make cities again, just probably on a smaller scale and be little kingdoms like India instead of China, with the occasional great unifier
4. There are no horses. If you wanna introduce horses to this, sure. If that’s the case, I think a lot of settled Mississippians would turn to horse warlords, which could lead to the establishment of a few large cities, I suppose like Central Asia.
5. Puebloans are super cool, they’d serve as Silk Road crossroads like you said.
6. Do not know anything on the California Amerindians
7. The Problem with the Pacific Northwest is that it’s hard to unite. Think pre-Roman gallia. Everyone is always fighting each other, which could develop into better bureaucracy and better technology, maybe like the warring states period of China.
8. Alaskan Vikings? I could see that.
9. Oh and as HereMapping said, Calusa had their canals and rising empire. Don’t exclude them.
Very cool, this should get pinned ngl
Horses (and camels) evolved on this continent, if we're already somehow engineering a scenario I don't think it's too much of a stretch to just have them not go extinct.
Don't forget the calusa kingdom and their impressive canals
For six one problem might be California's ethnic and linguistic diversity as there are lots of different language families that indigenous people here speak. We've got at least six different ones with some like Hokan and Penutian only being proposed and not fully accepted, meaning it can easily be more than 6. This could easily lead to any state that tries to control it to be very unstable politically as different groups resist being controlled by what they see as foreigners. The initial California kingdom of the Bay and Valley might work as they were Penutian, but again those branches are so different that many don't even think of them as one language family. I also know from California history that the tribes here were known to stay in smaller groups politically even when they could have formed into larger ones. I mean really small, like most tribes lived in villages of only 100 or so people and no one group of elite ruled over more than one village. This was the case even in areas that could have supported villages of a few hundred people, California tribes just didn't like to live in large communities. So I think any California kingdom or Empire would be very politically unstable and would need centuries of assimilation to ever make it stable.
Here's a language family map www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/1874gtd/indigenous_ethnic_and_linguistic_groups_of/
i think californian natives were big lovers of acorns and nuts, plus some of them had a system of currency with shells.
and they made cool looking canoes
Main thing you forgot about the Mississippi Kingdom, is they have the unenviable middle of the map status, meaning its far less likely they become China as facing threats on almost all sides they get fractured due to conquest and too many continued crisis of invading neighbors.
Look at real life history though. The mound builders almost became exactly as the fictional kingdom in this did. Take care and God bless
@@johnphipps4105 They didn't have to worry about the horse existing, which dominates a lot of warfare until advanced gunpowder weapons.
If we don't paste horses in then they really don't have an issue at all. If horses do somehow exist, then it's going to be an issue, and likely the great cities will mainly be on the eastern bank of the river to deal with this.
One has to understand the geography before the US government made it more or less safe. It's a very dangerous river prone to sudden change in its direction every spring. With the red river historically having a huge log blocking it at Shreveport. Cities would be placed near the river where flooding wouldn't happen
@@monkofdarktimes where would that be?
im smelling multiple parts of this exploring canada, central america, and south america
mhm
Yes please
Canada is basically identical to Siberia but with fewer rivers and more lakes, so I see a lot of conquest in their future.
@@PlatinumAltaria well i mean, i dont know. you never know what you might find up in the hat of NA
@@PlatinumAltaria Someone doesn't know about the North and South Saskatchewan River systems. Then there is the Rock that is Newfoundland where the vikings did land. Also in BC there is the Fraser River system which flows out into the Salish Sea.
I've also thought about this for years. It's a really fun thought experiment.
Not gonna lie, I never considered Alaskan Vikings, but that sounds spectacular!
I also agree that the Rockys would probably give rise to a mixture of nomadic tribes and settled peoples in the valleys. It might end up being simar to how Scotland produced Highland and Lowland cultures.
I really appreciate how much attention you gave to possible trade routes. Medieval America would definately have some extensive trade networks, similar to rhe Silk Road.
Really good video!
The Haida lived a very similar lifestyle to the vikings. Trading or raiding the mainlanders
Extremely fascinating video, as such I have two major things to add
1. I started feeling really patriotic about the Californian Empire.
I see us attempting to vassalize the people of Nevada and maybe the Northwest/Cascadia region before giving up on the former and making peace with the latter and forming an alliance, be it defensive or trade based. We’re best defended by the Rockies.
2. Native people like the Tlingit and Haida of the Pacific Northwest actually did develop raiding cultures akin to Vikings, they have some of the most unique armor of any civilisation I’ve seen, and I’d especially like to know what counterpart they’d have in this world.
Do don’t know if u could invade Northern Nevada tho. The Sierras would make it pretty hard to invade. Not to mention Nevada has 300+ mountain ranges.
@@Username7758-zv5poyes I know but I think the kingdom would try to settle the area/ control it through vassals but as I said before it would eventually be seen as a burden before the region is ultimately abandoned
California remined me a bit of china. With its mountains, lowlands and how secluded it is.
@@RHR199X I agree
@@Username7758-zv5po mountains aside northern Nevada is extremely arid and would most likely be occupied by nomadic peoples. There would be 0 incentive for California to expand much past lake Tahoe.
I think that central Great Plains civilization is too big and its territory too open and empty to stay one political entity for very long. It'd likely be more like the central Asian steppe, where competing nomadic groups would centralize, conquer, and dissolve in relatively short periods of time. No one tribal confederation would hold it for longer than a century or two.
Osages controlled Oklahoma, Kansas, Arkansas, and Missouri for 250 years before America pushed us back to Oklahoma.
A lot of the plains are also useless for agriculture. Large areas of rough terrain (known as breaks) have no agricultural potential and would be havens for nomadic pastoralists. Only river valleys where river irrigation is available would be settled (though perhaps quite densely). Dry farming is not likely to be practiced on any significant scale.
Whats lacking here is the general linguistic and cultural boundaries. Just because the Mississippi region is largely plains doesnt mean that its going to automatically be a massive ethnically homogenous nation. France, Germany, and Poland and the rest of Eastern Europe largely lie on a single continuous plain, but are very much not homogenous and havent ever been a single homogenous state like China.
@@hadhamalnam France basically happened by the peninsular Roman Latin culture being injected into the plain. Romance, Germanic, and Balto-Slavic, they are all Indo-European languages that diversified across a giant European peninsula with many peninsulas jutting out, plus the Alps and Carpathian Mountains to develop geographically distinct peoples. China is more diverse than many people think, as many Sinitic languages are not mutually intelligible like a lot of Indo-European languages could be, there are Tibetan-related peoples, plus there are numerically large but proportional minority non-Sino-Tibetan peoples like the Inner Mongolians and Uyghurs. It's just that each proportion of the peoples of China is so large that it seems more homogenous than it actually is.
The Roman Empire was the analogy to China in terms of being the dominant culture of the continental area, but unlike China, it was geographically fragmented by peninsular geography, between Latin and Greek, and carved up by dynamic connections with the Middle East and Eurasian Steppe. Despite that, Europe as a whole is still fundamentally divided between the Western and Eastern Roman influenced cultural halves.
@TorvusVae there's real life history you can actually just look up about civilization then, and get more accurate with your analysis
I think California would also see significant trade with Central and South America. In real life life history, there was long-distance sea trade routes stretching from the Peruvian coast to the Pacific coast of Mexico. A rich unified California would see the trade routes extend farther north, perhaps even to the Pacific Northwest. There's also growing evidence for contact between Polynesians and South America so there could exist a triangular trade between the Andean cultures, California and Polynesia.
My berserk button is when people talk about trans-pacific contact when there's very little compelling evidence that's been greatly overplayed.
Baja California has a fertile area at the very southern tip. So maybe a few city states or a state would develop there
My people (Tlingit) were already great raiders/traders like the vikings so glad you made that connection, we even had armor made of chinese coins
I've been reading up on the Tlingit and Haida peoples recently, and holy shit, they are awesome
I think California has the potential to be the Japan or Mali Empire of this scenario, isolated and hard to get to, but the place everyone wants to find for there culture and trading opportunities
I feel like your overpowering the Missipains empire as they are in the middle of the continent like Poland and yeah they have rivers but i feel that land would be similar to the Germanic states of the HRE
Poland is a good comparison. The Polish Lithuanian Commonwealth had serious problems with the Ukrainian region, which sounds a lot like the northeast part of the Mississippi empire.
And Poland was one of the most powerful nations in Europe for centuries.
It could also be like Russia though. Russia was kinda in a similar situation with nomads to the East and not very much blocking them other than the Ural Mountains in the middle of the area and just nothing threatening to the north. Eventually they managed to subsume the nomads, so Mississippi could be the same, but maybe not all unified like in the video.
Likely not unified. Russia had a few more physical and political advantages than this Mississippian state would: in the simplest terms worse border and closer proximity to rivals. More likely to see the southern half consolidate with the capital in New Orleans
Yeah it’s never been able to be completely unified in the past I doubt they would ever be more than a bunch of rivaling alliances and independent city states like Italy or Ancient Greece
PRITZER KHAN!
My midwestern khan ❤
That went pretty hard tbh
Evil take
KHAAAAAN!
Glory to the IL-Khanate
I’m actually writing a book in a setting like this, partially inspired by a mod called After the End for Crusader Kings 2 and 3
I’m interested what’s your book called?
That sounds amazing! I'd love to read it if you ever get it published.
Nice avatar
much luck !!! please post about this on after the end fan fork subreddit
A Canticle for Leibowitz
Is it wrong I’m imagining a cow herding nomadic society based in Wisconsin, wearing cheeseheads?
fuck, now i gonna dream that shit
10:29 I could also imagine a kind of cuman Hungarian relationship developing where the more centralised rich missisipi empire settles its western frontier with allied nomads that would make raids deeper into core missisipi territory require longer campaigns with little initial gain for the horselord warriors
Wait... I haven't been the only one who has thought about this?
I’ve been thinking about a medieval America forever now
You should try out crusader kings 3 mod:after the end
11:20 I don't think there'd be a single Mississipi state, but several perhaps even organised in temporary confederations due to the massive size of the region making it hard to govern (USA had lots of trouble managing these territories until the telegraph and train were introduced there)
I think the Mississippi valley wouldn't be like china it be more like iraq or india. Also be one of the last to unify. If it did earlier it would hug the river i think. I think the only way it would unify and become a continental empire would be by being conquered by the nomads. Kind of saw that with Iraq, sure the early civilisations didn't expand much beyond the river. It was barbarians conquering being assimilated that let to bigger empires like the assyrians. Even then its the Persians who originated in the steppes that expanded. While i think California would be more like China. It has the ecological diversity and natural centres of power while having enough isolation to engage with the world much more on its own terms than say the Mississippi would
I see the Mississipi as like North India, mostly. Mesopotamia is also a fine example. In both cases, it is mountain people that usually made those regions into large empires (exception of the Maurya). Even the Arabian Empire originated from the mountainous part of Arabia.
Little correction. The Persians had settled in the Zagros, for centuries, when they took over Mesopotamia. Fars does not have steppes.
@@nathanc939 the proto persians or rather the medes may have came from the steppe the persians moving in to Fars after the Assyrians crushed the Elamites. Either way doesn't change either of our points lol. Northern India is an interesting comparison, i was thinking earlier actually how a Mississippi culture might survive on the west side of the river and thinking about it would be similar to how indian empires tended to not project power beyond the Ganges and Indus (often by persia lol)
The Alaskan Vikings existed irl. The Haida of Haida Gwaii. Well kind of, there is obviously a bunch of cultural nuance I can't speak on. They even had some shared cultural motiffs with the Vikings with the Ravens and Eagles moiety and a Valhalla-like paradise for fallen warriors called the House of the Sun. They used war canoes to launch raiding parties like the Vikings as well.
Yeah, as much as I dislike Cali, we got it good with natural defenses. Those savages past the mountains wish they had it as good.
As an AZ silk merchant we thank you for your business!
Something about this is just kinda wholesome. My people are still around in El Salvador, but much of what we were is forgotten even our pyramids, so it's nice to see people remember that native people are still here and that we were capable of much more. There's evidence that mesoamerican civilizations traded with north American tribes, so it would be feasible to see the Aztecs and Mayans in the mix as some of the most advanced civilizations in the region. They've also found quite vast ancient cities that date as far back as the Roman Empire in the Amazon, not sure about the implications of that yet, but interesting to note for further speculation.
Mountain people ended up subjugated, in recent history. Well into the modern era, conquering accros major mountain ranges was near impossible. In fact, mountain people found a good portion of the largest empires (The Persians from the Zagros, the Mughals from Afghanistan, Ethiopia, etc..). To speak of how hard it is to conquer accross mountains, the Caspian area of Iran, is protected by the Alborz mountains, the Arabs never managed to subjugate them and they remained independent or highly autonomous, until the 16th century, while being the richest area of Iran, under constant attempts of invasions. They even struck back and conquered much or Iran, a few times. Armenia and Georgia also remained mostly independent, until recent history and while both are greatly diminished, they exist today, kept their culture and are still Christian, after over a milenia of constant Islamic attempts at conquest and conversion (Georgia even fought off Timur).
Also, highland people usually ended up conquered from the side where there was little to no mountains (Tibet by China is an example, Iran by Central Asian tribes is an other).
With this being said, the major mountain ranges would be some serious obstacles, even the Northern Apalachians, on the Canadian side. It is highly unlikely that anyone can strike across it, to conquer in the Saint-Lawrence Valley. The Saint-Lawrence Valley is extremely likely to be home to a very well consolidated and centralised power, with the rivers and its many large tributaries acting as major high ways for trade and control. Then there is also the climate, which is very particular to the area and makes it highly unlikely that foreigners can hold the area for long. This is where there is the worst freezing rains on the planet, rapid and extreme temperature changes (it can go from 5c to -25c within 12 hours or the opposite), snow storms can drop over 1m of snow in 36h (still rather rare, but in 2017, some areas got up to 2.3m in 48h), many areas flood rather often in Spring, especially, but also Summer and Autumn, etc..
The great lakes kingdoms, could expand into the Saint-Lawrence Valley, that is indeed possible, but the opposite is also just as likely.
As for the Mississipi and nomads area, I think it would be more like North India, where there is plenty of dryer area and even deserts, while the Ganges and the North of the Indus are very wet and fertile. Rajastan which is on the dry side, ended up with warrior cultures, with horse archers and all, that fought as mercenaries for the whole subcontinent and forming its own ''cast'' across India.
The Appalachian kingdoms could easily turn into something similar to the Swiss Confederacy or like Georgia.
The Rockies would likely see an Afghanistan-like region, which would often strike into the plains to raid or even establish empires, while rarely being fully consolidated.
That preface probably saved you from a lot of flak, lol.
Also this video probably got recommended to me because I was watching CK3 and US election videos today. So I guess the algorithm is working correctly.
Great video btw.
Edit: In a different Paradox game, Europa Universalis 4, a great plains native american civ can evolve into something similar to a nomadic khaganate if the europeans either do not invade, or are too slow. And it's glorious.
Holy shit I feel like this video was made for me! Ive been working on a map for a medieval america for two months now. I think all your points are great, and I never even thought about the fertility of the Northwest.
One thing I think was missed out on was Texas. While you could chalk it up to another nomad state, Texas has the opportunity for a ton of growth. It has a huge river network leading to the gulf, a large agricultural base in the west, the red river to the north, and forests in the west. I think it could at least be a regional power, but that’s just my opinion. Great video broski!
You're kidding me
I feel like the Midwest would be a lot like Ukraine with lots of fertile soil but also lots of nomadic raiders in a Eurasian steppe kinda situation but with a giant river to mix things up. A very chaotic region to be sure.
Depends on one's definition of midwest but an apt comparison. Likely to be partitioned like later Poland although probably not completely. I think he underestimates the Great Lakes especially their proximity and access to the upper Mississippi which they'd likely control.
We NEED this to be made into a series! Think of the incredible possibilities and awesome scenarios! It would be fenomenal!
Could you do this, but for the entire continents of the Americas?
You skipped the Iroquois Confederacy. Probably the single most significant political/cultural development among the North American Native peoples. I'd love to see your ideas on this. Or... the Migmaw of the North East.
Osage
The way you said the SW/Texas would be a crossroads of trade between areas was true in our history too. Mesoamerican city states actively traded north with the Mississippian cultures and plains tribes, which is a very neat connection that nobody ever thinks about
i knew someone would mention this!
Alaskan Vikings exist, they're known as the Tlingit. They allegedly raided as far south as Mexico but definitely hit people in modern California. They would make armor out of cedar and washed up Chinese iron coins. They have a really fascinating culture and language that thrives to this day.
I think Cascadia would control at least the Willamette Valley to the south. The Klamath Mountains are no joke, a very natural defense against Californian aggression. I agree they'd go to the East and take over the Columbia basin, it's good farm land with proper irrigation. The Columbia Gorge would be hard to defend against a Salmon fed army from the West.
Great video! I have always wanted to run/play in a TTRPG campaign set in a "medieval America" like this. So this was a cool exercise!
A few things:
1. I don’t see Michigan maintaining its independence from Mississippia. They get subsumed.
2. The Lower Colorado could probably be like a mini Egypt.
3. I think if anything, the Haida would be able to carve out an empire in the Pacific Northwest. They would be the best seafarers on their own island, meaning they could easily colonize parts of the mainland and beat out the rest in terms of seafaring.
Actually I could see Michigan Fighting off this hypothetical Megassippi for one simple reason. Before the Colonist came in the Eastern Midwest was one Giant Forest and Horses don't do that well in forests
@@waidwml2166 This area would also have a lot of forest, such as most of the south as well as significant portions of the north. I think the bottom of the Mitten is just too wide to block off easily.
The real question is does the Welland Canal exist or does trade have to sail over Niagara Falls and hope for a good landing?
That's funny lol
They couldn't build that in the middle ages, which means there's a niche for someone dominating the overland trade between the navigable lakes and the St. Lawrence.
@@PlatinumAltariayep there would be a portage like there were all over Kievan Rus between the rivers that flowed into the Baltic, Black, Caspian and white seas. And usually there were major trading cities at these portages, such as Smolensk between the Dnipro and Daugava rivers.
My guy, I’m Alaskan. My neighbor is 6’5 has a 3 foot long beard and weighs around 300 pounds, if you need a Viking, I know some people lol, but on a serious note, Alaskan coastal natives were “Vikings” the town I live in exchanged hands multiple times pre Russians showing up, Alaskans were quickly becoming Vikings, they had awesome looking boats too
Just keep in mind not everything is on the internet . We have a pretty big library on the reservation half of the stuff in it is not something you can find online these are public and most reservations have them if you are into making videos like this or just study of topics of the past check out the tribal offices library lots of hidden history to be dicovered in them .
0:46 lil bro coulda js said "subscribe" 😭🙏
My major issue is not taking more account of the natives population density which would be vastly different. Not to mention the climate of the Americas is more varried and more chaotic than europe and Asia. Not to mention how nomadic many people would be in the great plains because of Tornado Alley and Dixie Alley. With Hurricanes on the east coast being another issue
Completely agree with you
You NEED to make more of these
A note about the Great Plains. Assuming medieval level technology, farming on the Great Plains, and even large parts of the Midwest would be impossible. The deep, thick soils of the prairies simply stick to iron plows, bogging them down. The only thing that changed this was the invention/development of the steel plow, created by John Deere (yes that one) in 1837. That steel plow was what turned the plains and Midwest into the agricultural behemoths they are today.
They eradicated the prairie and turned it into a desert
Few things to note, Columbia River (OR-Wa border) without dams was super dangerous. It'd be limited to small vessels. The pacific coast off the Northwest would also be very dangerous, we have a ton of shipwrecks. And when it comes to the Willamette Valley, well there is a reason it was inhabited by native tribes. It's a season flood plain, literally from coast range to Cascades. That said, super fertile soil due the Missoula floods. But with no natural barriers in it... No way it's split. It's all or nothing for control.
That said, it's pretty interesting, the native Chinook tribes fulfilled that Viking role. They built a trade network that went from Baja to Alaska, trading, raiding and selling slaves. While still being only independent villages and groups.
Mexico already had advanced empires, I would imagine a roman empire coming from there, especially from the Yucatan.
They weren't empires they were small city-states almost kingdom like and they didn't spread beyond the yacutan peninsula, also Rome came way earlier then most Mexican kingdoms and yet it was way more advanced.
I don't see any Mexican civilization/kingdom being on that level of technological innovation and advancement
@@grandetristesse3370yeah but this is a theoretical world where they make it to the medieval technology instead of being softlocked in the copper age due to a lack of draft animals and the fact going from bronze to copper takes a very long time
ANMO?! I recognize you from Max's server! (You were Sedland) Do you recognize me?
Given their climate and overall environment, I would Imagine less Rome, and maybe something akin to Persia, Egypt, or some other middle Eastern Empire.
If it were to come frome somewhere of Mexico the only place where it could NOT come from is Yucatan.
Yucatan would be a fierce rival of Florida in the Caribean, but it would never be able to conquer that far.
If there where to be a “Mexican” empire conquering would come from the Central Valley, or would be nomadic from the northern steppes/deserts/mountains, but the jungles of Yucatan simply cannot provide for that, even during the golden age of Yucatan there was never a single city ruling over everyone.
In a medieval setting, Yucatan has the same place as greece, meaning is the probably the remnants of a “mexican” empire wich divided itself.
you should make a series out of this, extending this premise to the rest of the continent
Interesting, although it’s a bit confused what exactly you mean by medieval. I think medieval is better described as a social condition particular to certain places, not necessarily a “level of development.” Certainly not really a political level of development. Besides, political systems like those of the medieval Old World did exist, even if they weren’t using steal weapons or riding horses. I might recommend reading The Dawn of Everything, I think you’d find it’s analysis of power, polities, and periods of history (particularly their political philosophies) interesting. Not sure I agree with everything they posit, but it’s worth a read and is thought provoking. Good for worldbuilding inspiration too!
Presumably he's talking about the rise of large-scale kingdoms as tribes coalesce. There were a few of these in North America but mainly people were chilling because of the lack of horsies.
They were getting there, I know that. We know now that most tribes had war armor that most of them abandoned upon contact with whites because it was useless against guns. Mexicans had the cotton armor that inspired the first bulletproof vests, but everyone north was wearing wood & bone armor. Also, some tribes were beginning to work out bronze & things had a way of settling into Mexico, spreading to the Caribbean & then north into the Eastern Woodlands.
All they really needed was a practical reason for seeing value in more mundane resources & things like this would have taken off- not just getting their hands on bronze, but if they'd figured out more impressive shipbuilding tech. And it's not like wooden armor is ineffective in a medieval context, either. The Samurai primarily utilized hardwood armor finished with lacquer.
@@PlatinumAltaria They were certainly not chilling. The Dina were from Alaska, Canada Region traveled south to New Mexico and proceeded to conquer and force out the local population. That's like saying we was chilling in Europe before horses while sways of people were on the move at certain time periods replacing entire other people groups.
@@balasaashti3146 Are you talking about the Na-Dene languages? They didn’t conquer anyone and they weren’t a unified polity.
@@PlatinumAltaria One can definitely kill plenty of people without conquering them.
its changed my perspective a little learning that my home region (the southeast, specifically SC) would be the equivalent of the Balkans or SE Asia.
15:12
That part about LA won me over. Subscribed lol
This was great work! You should definitely do a series exploring the Caribbean, Central America and South America.
Also I kind of disagree with Mississippi taking over the east coast, I think it’s more likely that the east coast stays independent or has a loose vassal relationship with the Mississippi Empire (M.E). Something closer to the relationship Goryeo, Joseon and the many Vietnam kingdoms had with China. The Appalachian Mountains would make it too costly to keep the North East in check, the mountain people of the Appalachians would more than likely be warlike, so dealing with them would be a major headache and drain on the imperial treasury, they’d leave them alone with massive fortresses at major entry points into the low lands. And then dealing with the piedmont line another major headache. Piedmont Kingdom(s) would have a very established culture of their own, and they would probably revolt every few generations just due to distance from the imperial core. The Empire would also struggle with dealing with the warlike nomads from the western borders and the maritime strength of Florida and the Northeast merchants while also dealing with the nomads on its more open northern borders. I’m more than sure the empire would leave the east coast alone and would focus on its northern borders, and the Gulf of Mexico, with a similar system of fortresses and walls along its western borders like the Chinese did with the Great Wall.
Tri-state & mid-Atlantic: Kingdom of France
New England: Kingdom of England
Maine & Nova Scotia: Kingdom of Scotland
Great Lakes Midwest: Holy Roman Empire
Toronto & southern Canada: Swedish Empire
Minnesota area: Kingdom of Poland
The Dakotas & Nebraska: Grand Duchy of Lithuania
Missouri: Kingdom of Hungary
Central Mississippi valley: Habsburg Austria
Florida: Sicily
Comment if you
Like
👇
These cultural regions in America even line up perfectly with the geographical regions of Europe!
@@nelson5953 I know!
Maine and Nova Scotia would be more like Norway. Appalachia would be more like Scotland/Switzerland.
Why are you putting holy Roman Empire you cringe ball? You're thinking of the normal Roman Empire..
A few things I think are a bit different than what I'd say make sense.
1. Alaska does not have the population to be a real Viking threat like Scandinavia was. I'm sure there would be plenty of fishing settlements and raiders, but they wouldn't have nearly the geopolitical impact that Vikings did.
2. Cascadia would probably be a lot harder to unite than portrayed in this video. The area can support very high populations, but also has very difficult terrain and great sea access. I see similarities to Gaul and ancient Greece, although it is definitely different from both of those. I think the Faul aspect is really cool if you consider the following.
3. California is basically a mini Rome with the Pacific Coast as its Mediterranean. I think it would be an outside force that came and conquered a disunited Cascadia, and then likely pushing even farther north to deal with the raiders for periods of time. Trade across the Southwest would be a continuous thing, several great leaders would clearly try to conquer the area, and maybe even try to push for Texas in a folly. Similarly, they'd probably also try to conquer south towards Mexico. There would most certainly be trade with the far East eventually. The difficulty of doing so would mainly be about getting past the Alaskan raiders. Perhaps the Alaskans would thrive moreso during the golden age of piracy, and not during the Viking age equivalent.
4. I think the unity of the Mississippian cultures is unrealistic. The Mississippi river basin is not isolated enough to become a monoculture, IMO. There would be horselords to the West, and to which point wouldn't be very easy to know and would likely shift constantly. I think the Northwestern portion of the basin, especially the Missouri river and tributaries would be subservient to horselords for hundreds of years. The southern portion would likely have its own culture with influence from Texas and the rest of the South. Likely having its largest city being New Orleans. These peoples might even be more similar to other Southerners than to the northern Mississippians, although that is mostly down to how military and personal geopolitics develop, IMO. I also think that the southern midwest, Illinois, Indiana, Ohio, and even Kentucky would have a distinct culture from the Missourians. The Ohio Valley is incredibly fertile and defendable from multiple directions, not to mention there is little barrier between this region and the Great Lakes. I think the entire Great Lakes region would largely be dominated by the Ohioan culture, save for the difficult-to-settle locations in the north. Lastly, the Horselords would never develop into a knightly class. They might develop into something similar to a cossack class once the settled Missourians eventually get the upper hand. Creating something somewhat similar to Russia or the PLC.
5. The Northern areas of the Great Lakes that are difficult to settle would definitely be settled by Canadian tribesfolk as described. They would never give the horselords and run for their money, though. They're likely geopolitically irrelevant.
6. The Canadian plains would have a distinct culture. Rather small, settled, and very isolated. They would likely be another set of victims of the horselords.
6. The Northeast would probably not unit so easily either. They would have very similar culture to the maritimes as well. Northern New England and New Brunswick are too sparsely populated to really have the same culture, but this culture would be largely irrelevant, similar to the Sami or maybe Finland if we generously say they actually dominate Maine completely to the coast, leaving Portland like a Helsinki. Similarly, upstate New York would certainly not have a similar culture to the coastal area. Maybe the Hudson river, but that is kind of debatable. Upstate New York would likely have three cultures. Near the coast it would be dominated by the St Lawrence river culture. In the far east of the area the northern New Englanders would likely have some tribes. In the western highland there'd be clans related to the north Appalchians clans, which would also stretch through central Pennsylvania, leaving Pittsburgh for the Ohioians. There would certainly be at least one great conqueror that unifies the entire East Coast as well. The cultural impacts of this would be hard to determine, could go a lot of ways.
7. The St Lawrence river would certainly have its own culture develop, it could definitely even dominate the Ontario peninsula, I think that's more likely than the Ohioians being there, anyway.
8. The Maritimes would have the best position to become Vikings, however, I don't think they would take this route. They, too suffer from too low population. They might even be united with the northern New Englanders, the maritime are quite small, not necessarily large enough to develop a unique culture.
9. Florida is far too marshy to develop into anything worthwhile. The north would obviously be part of the regular South, but the peninsula would just be inhabited by tribesmen. Perhaps Tampa would develop into a city, it has a very good position, but that is the only site that stands a chance. There is a reason Florida was not settled much at all until well into the Industrial Revolution.
10. Texas would definitely have a unique settled culture separated by the horselords and the southern Mississippians. This culture would be irrelevant geopolitically due to low population.
Continuing down to Mexico would be interesting, but the Caribbean is more relevant to America's geopolitics. Further northern Canada would just be completely irrelevant with very little population. South America is a whole other thing, although definitely simpler considering the simpler geography of the continent combined with its small size.
8:45 i never thought that brainrot would affect AltHist RUclipsrs💀
please continue with canada/alaska, middle america and south america. You can make a video series with e at least 4-5 more episodes. please. I really liked it
As someone from the Appalachian Mountains of North Carolina I appreciate you pronouncing it correctly
As an Arizonan, though, "Gila" is pronounced "hee-luh."
This video is awesome! I'm happy to see some of the choices for my homebrew DnD setting in regards to the politics, religions, and borders of states be reflected in how I thought my world would work in this video.
California 💪. This video was pretty cool. It would be awesome to see medieval native Americans
Another Fire video as always 🔥keep up the amazing work you guys are doing I love watching these fr
You might like H. Beam Piper's Lord Kalvan of Otherwhen where the Indo-Europeans went east instead of west and colonized North America and developed medieval kingdoms. Also, one small correction - Gila is pronounced "hee-la". Very neat video, thank you.
Based on having read the book "Escape from Rome", with cavalry using nomads the Mississippi area would be a centralized state due to needing to fight the nomads as well as the relationship with nomads resultimg in the Mississippi region getting first unified by a frontier realm from the west of the Mississippi owing to the western region's superior access to cavalry
as a wisconsinite, i am fucking sad man. we got carved
Realistically we'd definitely be part of the Great Lakes Empire. There's no way they wouldn't control up to eastern side of the upper Mississippi.
I think you mean as a Western Michigander
Continue with this it was very interesting and I’d watch more.
Great job 👍
A Salish League in the pacific northwest, and Arawak Kingdoms in South America would be cool to include in this alternate history timeline mod imo.*
Awesome work mate, im not that knowlegeable about us geography but your understanding of theoritical civilization development captivate me. Il be sure to find this useful for any worldbuilding. Anyhow what a great video content
Expect newfoundlander pirates ravaging the east coast
Oh god they'd be even more terrifying because nobody can understand them 😂
O - H !!!
Amazing video btw totaling stealing this to make a dnd campaign setting too!
Sad there was Michigander propaganda to my ears
Don't worry they put their city of Green Bay directly next to the Appalachian Mountain kingdoms. Which have the industrial precursors to create a culture of craftsmen and smiths like the Dwarfs in fiction and the materials to make weapons and armor of high quality steel. That city will belong to the Mountains almost as soon as they start building it. Cutting the Michiganders off from their trade empire without first paying the toll. Any cities built next to the mountains will need to be heavily fortified if they don't want to find out what miners in armor with steel weapons can do to them.
Oh and like fantasy dwarves the Appalachian Mountain kingdoms also have large deposits of Saltpeter , coal , natural gas and Oil. Which means they also have Sulfur deposits. Gunpowder is made from a mixture of charcoal, sulfur, and saltpeter.
So guns could be invented in the mountain regions. Michiganders feel lucky until the mountain kingdoms show up with cannons from Southern Ohio. Apparently they failed geography because Southern Ohio belongs to the Appalachian Mountain kingdoms and we don't take too kindly to a bunch of Southern Canadians deciding to attack our lowlands. Those are our farms and we have more cannons.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geology_of_the_Appalachians#/media/File:Appalachian_Mountains_of_North_America.jpg
Notice how the east side and southern of Ohio are literally the lowlands of the Appalachian Mountain region kingdoms.
We need more food , you have more food. We have cannons and steel armor and weapons. And are master stone masons as well as craftsmen in the mountains. You pay us food . We protect you from the Michiganders . Deal ? Ohio would make that deal.
An alternative timeline could see the people of the Ohio valley becoming so conditioned to constant wars in defense of their naturally open and desirable land that they become renowned for their warrior culture like the Prussians. Or Ohio becomes the Poland of America: Defiantly existing in between regular conquests.
@@Guy-Mann Kind of but the South and East are pretty much the northern foot hills of the Mountain Kingdoms. As the Appalachian Mountains extend into 32 counties in Ohio, from the outskirts of Cincinnati to the edge of Cleveland. So the North Westren regions of Ohio would certainly be kind of like Poland in a sense as the farm land is valuable enough to be fought over and it is a boarder region with the Mountain Kingdoms to the South and East , The Mississippian Empire to the direct West and The Michigander's trade empire to the North just across the water. So it would likely be fought over. The Mountain Kingdoms would likely have the greatest influence within the region because of the 32 counties directly within their rule and willingness to fight to secure the rest of them for the farmland. Meanwhile the other empires would invade often trying to push the Mountain Kingdoms back to their mountain strongholds.
When it comes to fighting the Mountain Kingdoms a warrior culture only gets you so far when your enemy has cannons , early guns and better armor than you do. It's also very likely that If the Mountain Kingdoms focused on taking and holding that farm land Ohio would have fortifications built of stone and watch towers along the boarders. Plus the lowland Ohioans would be able to retreat to the mountains if anything invasion went poorly and have a place to stay and the reinforcements of the Mountain Kingdoms. Because word that Ohioans who were paying taxes in food and are citizens of the Mountain Kingdoms just got pushed off the land would travel quickly from the cities directly south and east to the regional capitals of the Mountains. Then it's time to go stomp some Mississippian or Michiganders ass and take the land back.
Remember that scene from the Hobbit when Bilbo tells Thorin that they are in fact outnumbered ? That's how Ohioans would look at being invaded by their neighbors to the west or northeast.
Michiganders invade Ohio and demands immedate surrender tells them Your out number we got your capital surrounded surrender. The leader of Ohio looks out sees them and smiles . Not for long..... Here comes the Armies of the Mountains down to say hi get off our lawn. That's what anyone saying that Michiganders could invade Ohio are forgetting 36% of Ohio directly belongs to the Mountain Kingdoms. And we claim the rest as something between allies and a vassal state.
Such a cool idea to explore. Really loved the breakdown of this, thanks for the video!
You baited and switched me with the thumbnail and 6:31
I have been wondering this for ages, thank you!
17:33 thought we wouldn't notice?
I noticed
I’m confused…
@@Puguita-0cto you dont see the messiah? the fish?
Amazing video man ❤❤.
i think the pacific northwest empire could be realistic but i expect it would fall to raiders through the columbia river gorge and could be further weakened by mt rainier, mt hood, or any other volcano that is near one of their major population centers.
these are just my thoughts considering i live in the pacific northwest myself
I always adore videos like this. Definitely a topic that needs more exploring.
I kinda wanna see you wrote a book about this alt history
“We all love to hate California is a strange way to either say “I don’t live in California” (lmao stfu brokey) or “i have outsourced my thought to republican comments on instagram”
what if I'm a liberal New Englander? We're both more liberal and richer than Cali, but also more quiet and humble 😇
@@Stoneworks so all of new england gets lumped together to compare to california? even then you still got it wrong xD california is the 5th largest economy in. . . not the US, the WORLD bud. the US would be a podunk backwater without california
This vid slapped
this is a really well made video
If anyone is interested in something like this check out after the end mod on either Crusader Kings 2 or 3. It is set in a future America which has regressed to medieval times with various interesting factions like the Great Californian empire, Nomadic cowboys, Rust Belt cultists who worship old machines, Haida Vikings (And also a Neo Norse Viking cult in the Great Lakes area) , Caribbean pirates and a Southern Confederate empire modelled after the Holy Roman Empire.
I like the althistoryhub character guy in the thumbnail
I think that guy who has that channel is from Ohio too so that’s probably why Ohio was used
“You guys are real smart, I KNOW you disagree about something.”
*Me during the whole video:* 👁️👄👁️
After the End CK3 mod
Some points.
1. The Appalachians are not large enough to fully hinder an army, but the climate and vegitation would add difficulty you aren't accounting for.
2. The Mississippi basin has 2 main rivers. The Missouri is longer than the Mississippi while they are part of the same drainage system and one is the tributary it's not word right to say 1 main river.
3. While the Missouri remains navigable up to Soix city now it would have been further but with great difficulty. Only in the the mid 1800s did Steam boats begin to be able to travel up into the furthest navigable point in Montana Ft. Benton. In north central Montana. This would have been extremely dangerous in medieval times and likely wouldn't have supported the expansion of an empire aside frome trade outposts. It took 13 months for Lewis and Clark to reach Montana's great Falls. Where the rife is completely impassable. Weather alone would make the river unsafe for travel 6-7 months of the year. This area would be nearly as difficult to get to as getting to as the Russia Mongolia border. There isn't that much reason for an empire to want the territory unless they have no other place to get precious minerals. It would be the Mongolia of the US. Im from Montana and was pointing slot off this out to the Sage Wall believers( a large stone formation in the mountians that looks like a huge stone wall in select locations). No one is building huge stone walls way out there.
3. You don't mention mineral resources much.
W video (Give me some cool artifact or something)
Get yourself a modest Ohioan Oilstone Brooch!
this is by far the most detailed assessment of a medieval American continent I'v ever seen, though I think it'd be a long while until any one kingdom would unite, I sorta see a great many of city states in the painted areas you drawn in, I also wonder how traveling would be in this with or without horses, considering the great time it takes even today, I wonder if anyone would form an alliance with there closest culture relative against one of the new formed kingdom or maybe a federation given the amount of cities there would be, this is why I love the idea of a story of this timeline exploring the culture that'll take place here
keep making non sw content, dont make the youtube algorythm fright you from doing whatever you want with your channel
genuinely caught my interest and a pretty good video overall, interesting thing to think about and you sounded like you really knew what you were talking about
Great video! Great concept!
Do another one with civilians from South and Central America
I'm from Brazil and I've always imagined this type of scenario with the indigenous peoples here: the lost Amazonian civilizations, the Tupi-Guarani, the wars between the Tupinambá cannibals and the Tupininquim, the trade routes with the Inca empire, etc. .. so much to explore!
I know you didn’t intend it to be read this way, but the title kinda reads like you’re saying there weren’t civilizations in America during the medieval period.
Yeah I had a more accurate title that didn't imply that earlier, but youtube didn't push it at all, so I had to be more uh... annoyingly clickbaity.
so great video, but you really gotta do a follow up with canada and mexico cause that context would really help flesh out the map.
It's a bit weird to only include the borders of the modern USA, it's not like Canada and Mexico exist in this universe. The northernmost parts of Canada would likely remain populated by smaller tribes (as in Siberia). We would expect to see small city states form on the northern coast of the Great Lakes (as in North Africa) with larger polities on the southern coast (Southern Europe). Main areas of importance are the crossing between the St. Lawrence Seaway and the upper Great Lakes, which aren't directly navigable by boat. We could see a reverse-Istanbul form around Toronto and Buffalo, with goods being transported overland from the Great Lakes to Lake Ontario. There's also Detroit, which is the natural centre of the Great Lakes and would control the North-South trade.
On the other side of Appalachia, the eastern seaboard would see the development of coastal bay city states all the way down to Florida, which is naturally allied to the Antilles as an Indonesian-style middle-man between the Gulf States and the Atlantic States. The lower Mississippi would very likely be dominated by a settled agricultural society, but the upper Mississippi would probably escape this great empire and remain a buffer zone between the Great Lakes and Lower Mississippi. The Great Plains would be dominated by nomads but due to the lack of horses it would be difficult to coalesce any kind of great empire akin to those in the steppes. Such peoples may even migrate heavily into the riverine areas to their east, leaving a relatively depopulated land of herders.
The Gulf of Mexico would definitely be a hub for maritime trade, with potential for a Great Mesoamerican state to rise in the vicinity of Mexico City. This state may struggle to control the southern isthmus due to the topography, or it may prove a vital trade link between the North American states and the Andean civilisations which obviously existed in our timeline.
Lastly we have the west coast, which would probably be dominated by two main cultural zones as you describe, with the Northwestern State centred on the Columbia River and Salish Sea, and the Southwestern State covering the Central Valley. These two groups would be relatively isolated from their eastern and southern neighbours, leading to a radical cultural split. The Colorado River area would be the only natural intersection between West, South and East, but due to its non-navigability no large state would emerge here, instead being home to various small city states benefitting richly from cross-continental trade.
Watching the Pritzker Khanate go from a tiny in-joke on Election Twitter to a Stoneworks video is extremely surreal lol
14:08 CALIFORNIA FOR THE WIN BABY!
The Rocky Mountain kingdoms are your biggest threat. Because like the Appalachian Kingdoms they have a lot of resources including silver, gold , lead , zinc, coal , copper , Iron and diamond-bearing kimberlites as well as reserves of other nonmetallic minerals occur in various places in the mountains. These include phosphate rock, potash, trona, magnesium and lithium salts, Glauber’s salt, gypsum, limestone, and dolomite. The large basins between the uplifts of the ranges contain many petroleum and natural gas fields.
Meaning the Rocky Mountain kingdoms have the ability to discover gunpowder and develop steel manufacturing. Which leads to Guns and Cannons. Making them more than capable of holding off California. Now to the South it's foot hills and desert. And the nomads of the desert aren't really a problem to get through. And the cities are all hidden on the sides of hills and valleys. So not really a problem for California.
Basically Mountain kingdoms are well defended and well provisioned in terms of resources. And simply put the mountain kingdoms would only expand to the more fertile lowlands within reach of the mountains because that's their comfort zone. This makes it impossible for anyone to actually conquer Mountain civilizations through invasion alone. California doesn't have all the materials required to make gunpowder thus wouldn't have the ability to develop such weapons without trading with someone who does have the materials to make them. And I doubt the Mountain Kingdoms would be open to giving away that kind of material resource.
So it wouldn't be something they could naturally develop on their own without trading for the resources. Because well to make steel for the barrels you need Iron ore and coal. California doesn't have any naturally occurring coal deposits outside of the mountains that would be another kingdom or empire or whatever they want to call themselves. Steel is made with Iron Ore and Coal. The carbon in steel primarily comes from coal. So those mountains would be a problem but they are a problem that California can bypass.
Also what is ignored historically the native groups were packed around the area so I would expect city states with different cultures living next to each other with leagues of influence
@@monkofdarktimes I like that idea more than a native American California empire
@@catdude-ty2hl it's a real fun topic to think about because of the geography is perfect for city states to develop and big ones up to Vancouver Canada. With smaller towns developing further upward all around the South Alaska coast and the Southern Tip of Baja California being habitable another for a couple of city states to develop at the mid point of Mesoamerica and California
@@monkofdarktimes I would love a game of thrones like show about native Americans either about the Aztecs or another civilization either a historical or a what if scenario like this has so much potential
FINALLY!!! This is only the 2nd video like this that I've ever seen. I'm stunned that this isn't a more popular thought experiment.
I think it's possible Wisconsin becomes its own country/state/whatever as well, owning the upper peninsula of Michigan. The southern portions of the state are more fertile than the peninsula. And, with the Mississippi River to the west, Lake Superior to the north, and Lake Michigan to the East, it has fairly defined boundaries. The only issue is the south and northwest. It would be able to take advantage of both its neighbors(the Middle Kingdom Mississippi Basin and the Great Lakes trade network) for trade, and to play each of them off each other to retain its independence.
What is your take on New Orleans in this world? As THE point at which the Mississippi River - and by extension all its tributaries - let out into the Gulf of Mexico, it seems the ideal place for a truly massive and extremely wealthy city to develop. But, the mouth of the river has a tendency to shift around. The only reason it doesn't now is because of a flood gate system built to prevent just that from happening. If that didn't exist... trade out into the wider world from the Mississippi might be more difficult. (I confess, this is not my area of expertise. So, I might have some details wrong.)
Would Maine also have vikings?
All that said, I'm not sure the "Middle Kingdom" Mississippi Basin would actually be able to unite and stabilize everything. That's the problem with having potential enemies and competitors on all sides. I could see several smaller stable states arising with either no-mans land or disputed territory between. One example might be Iowa. They could push south into Missouri, taking everything until the Missouri River was their southern and eastern boarder. Then, north into Minnesota until the Minnesota River was their northern boarder. That would leave them completely surrounded by fairly large and navigable rivers. The only exception would be a patch in the north west. But, they could use these rivers as both a buffer against invaders and as a way to ship goods around the outside of their country(which is a weird concept, if I'm being honest, since it's more-or-less completely landlocked). But, I could also be wrong. Over a long enough time, who knows? Maybe they do unite the whole basin.
Horses and camels evolved in North America, but were wiped out by the natives around 10k years ago. Which is not to long ago if you think about it, so it wouldn’t be to crazy to imagine them still being there and natives domesticating them.
But that was when humans were in their "eat everything larger than a dog" phase though xD
@PlatinumAltaria no
@@PlatinumAltaria yeah, but horses in Asia survived human hunting so maybe if the younger dryas didn’t happen and make everything way colder would they be able to also survive the Native Americans
@@Papahye There's a lot more of Asia than there is of North America.
No they didn't. The horses that "evolved" in North America are more similar to zebras
Please make a entire series including canada mexico central and south america
"it is a massive shame that Native American civilizations got violently wiped out"
I agree many nations we won't know exist before the Europeans arrived due to the many mass graves pre Colonial contact.
Like the mound peoples. Completely wiped. Where I live the Dina came in during the 14th century or so I believe and straight up wiped everyone here. Some mates come here and see the old ruin homes and towns in cliff faces and they believe it is the Dina buildings but in fact it's the people that were wiped out from the Dina.
If you look at a map of the Appalachian mountains region it covers from the Canadian province of Newfoundland and Labrador to central Alabama in the United States a distance of about 2,000 miles or 3,200 Km.
Huntington WV is in the Ohio Valley region and is home to over 45,000 people. However the capital of the state today is Charleston with roughly 49,000 today which is defensively located in the mountains within a valley.
So what I think you got wrong is the ideal that the civilizations started in the mountains would remain just inside the mountains when there are rivers dividing each section that also work as a boarder to other possible kingdoms. Southern Ohio is actually part of the Appalachian Mountain region.
Metropolitan areas with at least 10% of population in the Appalachian Region would be the following..
Pittsburgh (Pennsylvania), Atlanta (Georgia), Birmingham (Alabama), Knoxville (Tennessee), Youngstown (Ohio), Scranton (Pennsylvania ), Greenville (South Carolina), Chattanooga (Tennessee), Winston-Salem (North Carolina), Huntsville (Alabama), Asheville (North Carolina),
Kingsport (Tennessee), Erie (Pennsylvania ), Spartanburg (South Carolina), Binghamton (New York), Hagerstown (Maryland), Cincinnati (Ohio), New Castle (Pennsylvania), Hickory (North Carolina),Tuscaloosa (Alabama) , Johnson City (Tennessee) And of course the previously mentioned cities of Huntington and Charleston West Virginia.
So the region is much larger than your example showed and the people of the Mountains would given that among the materials in the mountains are coalfields , Iron ore deposits , salt, marble, granite , tember , limestone, the rivers can be used as a power source for industrial use, serpentinite which contains concentrations of soapstone and asbestos means they can make soap and the valley's are fertile farmland.
The raw materials needed to make steel are Iron and Carbon. The iron comes from iron ore, and the carbon comes from coal.
so the Appalachian mountain people would extend out into the neighboring regions as a buffer zone or frontier as a way of extending their agricultural lands. Rather than staying in just those two valleys. And they Ironically have a good industrial base to do so with the deposits of Iron Ore and Coal allowing Appalachian craftsmen to make weapons and armor of higher quality than their low land rivals . Also with a mining and forging culture there we get gold as the Appalachian Gold Belt stretches from Alabama to Newfoundland and Labrador, and contains significant gold deposits.
So the Appalachians actually are fairly wealthy and well defended with the ability to build mountain fortifications and produce their own weapons of steel rather than importing materials. Due to the region being rich in natural resources. Similar to those of the much younger Rocky Mountains. Which also contains a lot of mine-able wealth. This also means conflicts with the Mississippian's over the Ohio Valley will occur . However it's kind of hard to use a river for trade in the Southern Ohio region that is completely surrounded by the Appalachian Mountain Kingdoms. Even if you paid one off it doesn't mean the other won't use anyone you send into the region as target practice from their mountain strongholds. So the Southern region of Ohio wouldn't be going to the Mississippian kingdoms.
In real life the region was controlled by the Cherokee Nation prior to the Europeans arriving and the Cherokee generally fought the Iroquois Confederacy over control of the region. So it isn't a given that any one kingdom would control the region. However it is a given that this would be a boarder land between the powers of the region. And would be fought over between the Mississippi river kingdoms and the Appalachian mountain kingdoms. Just like the shell region to the South and East of the Appalachian mountain region would be fought over. Because it borders two regions and every kingdom has ambitious rulers who want more land and power. Human nature basically.
Bro watched Whatifalthist
mhm
I don't see the comparison, he didn't talk about incels rising up even once!
@@PlatinumAltaria Whatifalthist had a video about this exact topic
@@AndreiCostache-kh9mv This is one of the most common alternate history scenarios, it has been discussed for decades before the Ottoman Incel came around.
@@PlatinumAltaria Calling someone an incel while being a F@G is crazy
Never clicked a video faster in my life. I have been obsessed with idea since I read "A Canticle For Leibowitz" when I was 15