Nano VNA one of the best learning tools any ham could buy. The more you do with it the more you learn. Hook it to a laptop running NanoSaver it takes all the mystery out of the onboard menus.
I agree. I use the NANOVNA H4 and have never hooked it to a computer, and have been very satisfied with it. Now you have me wondering about NanoVNASaver, I'll have to give it a look.
Dave, I respectfully disagree. The NanoVNA's are very capable and versatile devices. You are right they can do lots of things. However, they can easily do the essential Ham functions of plotting SWR and a Smith chart. The menu can be intimidating and there is something of a learning curve. There are many RUclips videos that will lead you through the Basic set up. Being a mag loop fan, I could not have been able to use these loops without the NanoVNA.
The Nano vna is quite a bit cheaper than a good antenna analyzer, so as confused as I am every time I turn mine on, I can setup my wolf river coil very easy. I'd love to buy a better tool, but money is an object.
Books on using the NanoVNA: "NanoVNAs Explained: A practical guide to Nano Vector Network Analysers" "A guide to the NanoVNA" I have the second one. It is really useful in that it allows you to move into building a lot of RF circuits. I have found that learning to use this device opens up a lot of knowledge and experimentation. I do recommend for a new ham IF they are willing to look at it as a learning tool and except the frustrations of the learning curve.
I sure have learned a lot by learning how to use my nanoVNA. There are PLENTY of online resources for instruction. For the price, I don't see why any ham wouldn't own one. I'm not a programmer and I'm certainly not a Linux person. If you can figure out how to navigate a touchscreen smart phone, you can more than likely figure out how to use a nanoVNA.
Dave, I aggree with you "but"... I'm a tecnician level ham. The trick I've learned with my Nano VNA is simply "baby steps". I need to 1. pick my start and stop frequencies, 2. calibrate it with the open, short and load calibration tools, 3. Find my way (through the menue ) to SWR and take my reading, 4. Move the cursor along the graph if I want to home in on a specific frequency and get that particular reading, 5. then go back to display, format and choose smith(for smith chart) and I can get other pertinent readings for that specific chosen frequency. That is all I need it for now so I'm not going to strain my brain by filling it up with unnecessary information. If you don't have the $, you make the time to learn, just don't try to learn it all at once. As you get some basics figured out write them down and make your own standard operating procedure so you will have that set of instructions to refer back to. Thus eliminating some trial and error as you attempt to remember how to do it from 3 months ago! The more times you do it the more you will remember. There are some helpful videos out there, just take what info you need and leave the rest for later! KO4GJO
There are tons a very helpful videos on RUclips from a number of individuals explaining the functions and use of the nanovna. When I was first learning to use mine for building antennas and testing various SWR readings, I simply made a bullet list of the basic setup functions and practiced until I had it down to muscle memory. As with any type of hardware/software tool such as this, the casual and or normal, day-to-day user will probably only use 10 to 15% of its capacity. The remaining 85% is for the hardcore experimenters of the more esoteric among us.
Nanovna is not a single item. Your muscle memory will not transfer to all clones and variations. Just like different Linux distros don't work the same way.
They do indeed have a steep learning curve. And if I have not used mine for awhile, I need to retrain a bit. But for antenna analysis they are great -- all the way from 160 M to 70 cm -- and at a fraction of the cost of an MFJ product and it provides a lot more information. My model has no problem displaying SWR readings across the entire HF spectrum, something useful for trying to tune EFHW antennas, or just random wire antennas. They also do things like measuring the loss in old coax, and whether your homebrew dummy load is purely resistive. Connected to an antenna, they can also receive strong signals, something good for detecting spurious emissions. They are also a very stable signal generator, something good for looking at signal passbands in filters. I once set up mine on 40 M to set up a 1 kHz sweep and found I could drive a couple of miles away and still hear the distinctive signal it put out on a portable receiver on my lap. So be mindful of causing interference when using one for antenna analysis. Overall, they are a very good investment for any ham who wants to learn more about electronics.
The first nanoVNA model, like in this video, has a tiny screen, delicate thumbwheel, and exposed sides. They then came out with nanoVNA-H4 which added;enclosed case, recessed thumbwheel, and bigger 4" screen,. Latest model is the nanoVNA-F which adds stronger chassis mounted connectors ($70). Biggest hassle is you have to calibrate it when changing bands with three cal terminators; short, open, and 50 ohm.
Those are made by different companies. The nanoVNA-H4 is a knockoff clone of the edy555 version. There's also the NanoVNA V2 (S-A-A-2) which uses a from scratch design by NanoRFE. There are companies who make clones of either with cheaper lower quality parts in order to cash in at the lowest price.
Dave, I have to respectfully disagree with you. I was a 3 month old ham when I bought my first NanoVNA from the manufacturer recommended by the original developer. Within 5 minutes after receiving it, I had it calibrated, set to SWR output display, and saved it so that whenever the device was turned on, it showed SWR on my band of choice (40m at the time). It was super easy! I built a few antennas and put it away. Later, I had the need to build a wave trap to combat a local AM station and was able to use the VNA to build a wave trap. Had I opted to purchase a RigExpert or MFJ tuner, I would have been out of luck. The name brand tuners are really nice, but since I'm not building antennas by the dozen, or using analyzer extensively in the field, it would make no sense to spend hundreds of dollars more on overpriced and less versatile equipment. In the end, I think those devices end up limiting hams to antenna tuning when there is so much more to ham radio and electronics. I would highly recommend new hams try the NanoVNA before shelling out big bucks on a name brand analyzer.
Your idea of "It was super easy! Barely an inconvenience" will not be easy to many others. The wide quality variation of NanoVNAs can be frustrating. Buying the cheapest NanoVNA is like the buying a cheap QRP radio. A pixie radio will only cost $10 but there are reasons why QRP kit radio shouldn't be a first radio.
@Sam Miller That is exactly why the original designer has a list of recommended vendors on their site. If someone wants to roll the dice on a random one from the Internet, well as in anything, caveat emptor. And come on now - the NanoVNA site has a manual and tutorials and if those aren't enough RUclips is your friend. The RigExpert is not that much easier to operate, if you want to get down to it. Point being, if you can operate a ham radio or an analyzer, you can operate a Nano. I would argue the UI and menu system on an Icom would present greater challenges.
The NanoVNA is a great gadget, I do concede that they are not intuitive to use immediately but Linux knowledge is not needed whatsoever. Outdoors in bright sunlight the MFJ and similar are easier tools to use for basic antenna measurements. MY own NanoVNA has been through a few different firmware versions, but that was simply a matter of using a software tool from ST Microelectronics to load the new firmware. Like another commenter I generally use the NanoVNA indoors controlled by a PC via USB. A benefit of using it in this way is that traces are readily saved to the computer. As with any hobby some people will buy devices that they never use... there are some tutorials on the NanoVNA online.
As others have pointed out, it has nothing to do with being a linux expert or programmer, and is a relatively easy device to learn. It is easier if hooked to a computer. Alan, W2AEW, among others, has many good videos on how to use it. Any device is intimidating if you don't take the time to learn how to use it. I have zero programming experience. Anyone that can pass the general exam should have no problem learning it. I will agree that an antenna analyzer is easier for simple swr measurement.
Hey Dave, I learned how to use a Smith Chart 55 years ago when I was 11 years old. I was so happy when they came out with all the affordable Nano VNAs! It's effectively just a Smith Chart with wires on it. The more you play with it the more you're gonna learn. Yeah, it's got some learning curve, especially if you are not already familiar working with complex numbers associated with RF devices like antennas. SWR meter can't tell you if you need to make your antenna longer or shorter, Nano VNA will & they are certainly accurate enough for ham radio use.
Not sure where Linux or programming comes in. But if you have ever used a VNA, these things are very straightforward. A bit lobotomized with only one directional coupler, but does everything my Agilent does if you're willing to manually flip the cables for S12 measurements. Yeah, the touch screen could be better. The menu could be better. But 10 minutes of poking around and you've got it. Best thing since sliced bread.
Dave sounds like he hasn’t done his homework on this video. And it shows posted just a few hours ago. I could understand him making those comments in the beginning of the video a few year ago maybe. But not now. I found the “ cheap “ VNA very easy to use. And the SWR readings matched the ones from the IC 7300.
You're 100% correct that the UI is terribly unfriendly and it's far above and beyond what many hams want out of it. It is, however, possible to strip away all of the most advanced stuff and get it to where you can simply and easily connect it to an antenna, scope in on a single band, and check out the low SWR point. There's actually a great video on RUclips I saw a while back where the guy specifically shows you how to disable all but one trace, set a frequency range, and see the SWR curve. Most of that setup needs to only be done once and then you need only reset the frequency range in the future when you're looking at different bands.
I run a NanoVNA as well. The recall menu will also load your saved plots, so after you set it up once it can be as simple as "Recall -> Slot 0". Set your start/stop, traces and formats up first, do the calibration, and save it. After that you do not need to mess around with it again. I like running with return loss+SWR (same thing with a different scale), and smith chart which is great for adjusting home made baluns. The only other trace I used was the phase trace for cutting 1/2L multiples back when I ran RG6.
@@sammiller6631 I have the "black and gold" clone NanoVNA, which is a clone of the 2_2 hardware. I updated the firmware recently and it immediately recalls from slot 0. The main thing dave misses: It's not just the calibration that is saved, the trace/plots are also saved, so after the initial setup and calibration which admittedly can be difficult without a video, you just need to turn the thing on and it's ready to go
With an AA-230 if you don't know where the antenna is out of resonance or even which bands it covers you start with the SWR chart, press the "Fq. Range" button. On that screen hold down the "F" key and move all the way down the band list until you see "All". Then press "OK" three times to scan the entire frequency range of the AA-230. You'll see the dip(s) where the antenna is resonant. You can then go to "Fq Range" again and select the band you want examine more closely. Once you see the center frequency of the band you want to examine press the down arrow key and change the range setting to be fare enough outside of the band to get a closeup view of the dip.
The key is totally understanding 2 port networks. In order to do so I would suggest finding yourself an old 2nd year EE circuits textbook and a linear algebra text book (because of the matrix math involved) and you will be well on your way.
the NanoVNA's are fantastic, but you have to know what you are doing, I think the biggest issue you will run into is that you MUST calibrate them WHENEVER you change the span! If you set it up to say look at the 80 meter band (say your tuning an antenna), and then go to 40 meter and don't re-calibrate, your readings will be wrong, so that is the biggest gotcha, just re-calibrate whenever you change spans.
I saved a calibration from 1 MHz to 30 MHz for all HF my everyday use & then just narrow the stop & start from there. No need for a separate calibration unless I go up to VHF bands.
@@sfrahm1 I tried that and found pretty bad errors in reading when narrowing bandwidth, you really need to calibrate every time you change frequencies, there are only 200 points tested from star to stop, so 30MHz bandwidth will have very poor resolution and when you narrow it down those points won't be calibrated since it never calibrated them at higher bandwidth.
Oh, come on. It's not that complicated. There is a download manual which shows the "map" of the menu system. These nanovna are very accurate. I also have a tinysa which is absolutely fantastic for RF use.
Be careful with the voltage/power level going into the TinySA or it wil say, _"Wow, that was De-Lightful."_ ...and then go silent. It's another fun tool for RF - just poke an antenna into the air to see what's going on. I love it!
I love my NanoVNA. I suggest buying from R&L or other reputable dealer. They are superior. Just used mine a couple days ago to measure isolation of a switch. Once you get comfortable with calibrating the unit (a must), you can measure SWR very easily and quickly.
Linux really has nothing to do with the complexity of the nano-VNAs. Like many 40-year-old VCRs, the interface is simply poorly designed. But it only takes a little practice - having an Elmer helps - to get going. You have to set the frequency limits (and CALIBRATE the device for those limits using the 3-step calibration process), set the kind of display you want (linear, logarithmic, etc.), and set what you want graphed (SWR, etc.). The nano-VNAs are also fragile. SMA connectors have short lives, so attach an interface cable once (e.g., SMA-to-UHF like you had) and leave it on. One good yank on the cable and you have $70 worth of electronic waste to be recycled. The ability to interface this to a PC (via a USB cable) makes this a much better instrument with the ability to produce, and print, wonderful graphs showing, e.g., SWR (or whatever) from 160M to 6M or beyond.
Totally agree, the nanovna is a handy tool in the shack. But, it is not a friendly tool for antenna work. And I can understand a new ham struggling to understand them. A conventional antenna analyzer is much more friendly. And at 4 times the price. You can have a nanovna and a tinysa for a 3rd the cost too.....If you really want to learn about trabsmission lines and antennas. A nanovna and the test board are an excellent kearning tool !
Nice analysis Dave and thank you again for sharing. I myself have a NanoVna but it is true that I prefer my old MFJ 259 because much simpler as you stipulate in your video. Best 73/F8MGW
I understand where you're coming from, but consider the following: 1. It wasn't originally designed for Hams. It is mostly for EEs and specifically RF Engineers who don't want to buy a VNA that's the price of a used car to the price of a house. 2. As a ham I was very used to reading SWR/VSWR, but I had to get used to looking at S11 as log-mag (dB) return loss in a professional RF engineering job. 3. The UI and menu system is intentionally designed to be like HP/Agilent/Keysight, Anritsu, Copper Mountain, etc brand VNA (in other words expensive VNAs) 4. Thanks for the good laugh about "It's for Linux experts and/or Programmers" comment, I work with a lot of them and they don't know how a VNA works, again the NanoVNA is for RF engineers. 5. The learning curve is worth it, because the day you get that lucky deal at a hamfest on a HP/Agilent/Keysight, Anritsu, Copper Mountain, etc. you will be ready to use it. 73, KD8TUO
Perhaps you remember attending my presentation on NanoVNA use at Quartzfest 2022? I think k a NanoVNA is very useful, including for new hams. There is a learning curve, but not that daunting. If you are just planning to use SWR, the setup takes a few minutes, but it is not all that difficult. An antenna analyzer also has a learning curve, although for some functions is quicker and easier for someone to learn. Of course the analyzer may cost five to ten times as much as a NanoVNA. A basic tutorial would be helpful. But I don't agree that a user needs to know anything about Linux to use a NanoVNA; they just need to be able to follow a menu. 73 de W6DPS
Gotta disagree with you. Way off here. Im not a programmer and I use mine all the time. Maybe it's better for plug-and-play hams, but the device is easy to use and accurate. For the money, better than any antenna analyzer for hams designing antennae. Very powerful device for a fraction of the price. One you learn how to use it, its easy as pie. This is disingenuous. The nanovna lists Smith chart and SWR as default. Also attaches to computer. Maybe it's not as rugged as some, but in radio we learn to respect limitations.
I haven't changed to a nanoVNA, but I have a miniVNA Tiny. It is all done in software, either Java or Android (yes, I can do measurements on my phone.) I've learned a lot, but certainly would appreciate pointers to resources to do a deep dive into what the parameters mean and how to interpret them. That book or article on the overhead camera zlooked interesting to me. What was it?
My father in-law and Elmer gave me his VNA because he couldn't figure it out, and just got frustrated. Maybe NanoVNA came a little easier because I do have a Linux and scripting background? Maybe Dave's right there, but I wouldn't pass one up especially if you get one for free :) I'm not going to complain about mine.
Disagree on this....IMO the Nano VNA puts a powerful tool in the hands of a lot of people that otherwise couldn't afford one. I was able to pull SWR graphs up in a few minutes on the first try. BTW I know zero about Linux and never had to use it with my VNA. 😀 I think a Nano VNA is a great tool for a new ham. No reason to spend a lot of money at MFJ or Rig Expert if you don't want to. Are they better, sure. Does the Nano VNA work? Absolutely yes! Works well.
I'm wondering if the size of the nanovna was really the biggest turn off here. Yes the nanovna has more features than you need, the menu is a little non intuitive. I'm an avid Linux user, but I honestly didn't know it ran Linux, I don't see how that came into play at all. Using the nanovna plugged into the computer makes it much easier to use. Buy one from the people that designed the thing so you get a quality device. But a quick youtube search had me graphing the SWR on each band within 30 minutes. I did a print of the chart and wrote down my tuner settings across each band for quick reference. Really nice to see the graph of the SWR across the band of interest so you can see how the tuning changes the plot. I'm no expert, in fact I'm a new ham and new to RF. My Dad installed his antenna and had a short in one of his coax connectors somewhere. We knew it was on the coax from the lighten protector to the antenna, it was a OCFD so the balun shows as a short. But was it the end in the air. or the one on the ground? I went over with the nanovna, watched a 10 minute youtube video and was able to tell him how many meters to the bad connector. It's also 1/2 to 1/5 the cost of a antenna analyzer. Sorry, I can't agree with this conclusion.
I have one, I can't speak to all nano vna's but mine wasn't accurate enough. My internal radio tuner can tune 3:1and the nano was reading 2:1 and the tuner couldn't tune it. I ended up buying a RigExpert and this was reading the same SWR as my radio. The VNA was about 2:1 SWR off the actual SWR reading. They do work and not sure if mine has issues but I recommend something more reliable.
The menu system isn't that hard. Best tool I've ever had. SWR is easy. Pick trace, pick format, pick stimulus then start and stop points and get a great visual representation
Dave, I think you are selling yourself short. You are skilled and knowledgeable enough to use a nanoVNA, but I agree with you: for a lot of folks, the return can be pretty small for the effort necessary to learn how to use the thing. I think the value of the nanoVNA is being over sold. Don't get me wrong: they are amazing test instruments. I own a couple myself, but there are some gotchas that are being ignored. There's some controversy about just how open source the hardware and software happens to be. This has led to branching firmware, and, as you discovered, different capabilities and user interfaces. Pity the poor manual-writing author who is talking about setting the sample rate to 401 points when the reader's device only supports 101 points. As another example, some of the recent firmware doesn't have the "isolation" calibration selection; it just disappeared. So, even describing the very basic calibration steps could be frustrating. Since there are some disagreements about who owns the hardware design, there can be serious issues with hardware quality control. I've seen some samples from certain manufacturers that were missing basic RF shielding. Also, some chip shortages have forced a device substitution even by well-regarded manufacturers, prompting at least one software distribution (DisLord's) to include a configuration switch to address that issue. Another commenter suggested doing due diligence before purchasing. That is easier said than done. There are a lot of RUclips tutorials on using the nanoVNA, and most of them are very good. Some are a little more optimistic about capabilities than I think is appropriate. I don't care what anyone says, I am not going to try to tune a good set of cavity resonators with a nanoVNA. It doesn't have enough dynamic range for anything better than a $150 Amazon-sold duplexer. Some commenters have talked about using a nanoVNA as a learning tool. I agree with that sentiment entirely. If you have the interest, time, and motivation to learn a bit about RF networks, then the nanoVNA is a great way to apply what you have learned. However, the goal here is to learn and then use the nanoVNA to test that learning. I think that is a different goal than using a nanoVNA to measure antenna characteristics. And that last is what gets me to my final point: use the right tool for the job. Can you measure SWR with a nanoVNA? Of course you can, but a Rig Expert or MFJ analyzer are much simpler to use. They certainly are a lot easier to read in the sunshine, and there's no calibration step needed. As another example, some folks spent a lot of time designing and building test jigs to use the nanoVNA to measure an unknown inductor. But that is just one method. You can also use a simple LC oscilator and a 'scope to calculate the value. And if you are planning on doing a lot of such measurements, particularly if you are measuring inductors for use below 100 kHz, an LCR meter is not much more expensive and a heck of a lot easier to use. Yes, there are some use cases for a nanoVNA, other than as a learning tool, that make sense. It's a good fill-in for a spectrum analyzer with a tracking generator. If you are looking at a filter's characteristics you can even see phase changes, which you don't see with the spectrum analyzer. It can be handy to find where a break or short in a coax cable happens to be. It can be substituted for a spectrum analyzer/tracking generator/return bridge combo to make sure an impedance match is good (low return loss) for a particular frequency range. And there are other places where it might come in handy. It certainly is cheap enough that you could put up with a lot of shortcomings, especially compared to commercial VNAs. (I saw that a prominent Chinese manufacturer is now offering a VNA that goes to 4.5 GHz for just under $9000. That $100 price tag on a nanoVNA doesn't look so bad. ) I guess what I'm saying is that you should figure out your needs--your use cases--and then buy the test equipment that best satisfies those needs rather than buy a bit of gear and figure out what you're going to do with it later. Too many times a nanoVNA purchase is an example of the latter strategy.
Dave your comments about the menu system for most devices is not new, though it doesn't matter what computer or, indeed, paper system is involved. Nearly 50 years ago I was advocating for a discipline/profession that would be the buffer during development between gurus and end users with the intention of allowing for a man-machine/system interface to be developed that was variable depending on the users' expectations. Utopia perhaps.
Get an MFJ259/269, or rig expert. Quick and easy, don't need to calibrate each time, like with the nano vna. After you get a basic antenna analyzer, I'd still get one of these for learning as you go.
If you invest some time to learn the basics(calibration, smith diagram etc.) these things are absolutely awesome and do way more than an swr meter. A good VNA can characterice antennas, amplifiers, coax and with a good setup even antenna gain. Bought an NanoVNA v2 and am more than happy with the performance.
All these gushing NanoVNA proselytizers sound like Linux fanboys telling Windows users that they should give up Windows and learn Linux instead. After all, Windows is expensive compared to Linux, right? Using RE or MFJ is like learning to use a phone. Using a NanoVNA can be like a hazing ritual. They've gone through its struggle. Now they want all future pledges to the group to go through the same struggle.
It’s remarkably easy. Give it a shot. I don’t know what’s up with Dave in this video. The NanoVNA shows SWR on the screen. I know his eyes aren’t the best anymore but it’s right there.
Nano VNA one of the best learning tools any ham could buy. The more you do with it the more you learn. Hook it to a laptop running NanoSaver it takes all the mystery out of the onboard menus.
I haven't even tried to use it without the computer since I found out about NanoVNASaver.
I agree. I use the NANOVNA H4 and have never hooked it to a computer, and have been very satisfied with it. Now you have me wondering about NanoVNASaver, I'll have to give it a look.
John - I agree. It motivated me to learn about Smith Charts.
Mine is an older one with a tiny little screen, I cannot read it so I need t use the computer -
@@jj2me You will be very happy, guaranteed.
I am 67...bought one of these and watched a number of videos and found this to be a very practical and reliable tool. Highly recommend to any new ham.
Dave,
I respectfully disagree. The NanoVNA's are very capable and versatile devices. You are right they can do lots of things. However, they can easily do the essential Ham functions of plotting SWR and a Smith chart. The menu can be intimidating and there is something of a learning curve. There are many RUclips videos that will lead you through the Basic set up.
Being a mag loop fan, I could not have been able to use these loops without the NanoVNA.
The Nano vna is quite a bit cheaper than a good antenna analyzer, so as confused as I am every time I turn mine on, I can setup my wolf river coil very easy. I'd love to buy a better tool, but money is an object.
Books on using the NanoVNA:
"NanoVNAs Explained: A practical guide to Nano Vector Network Analysers"
"A guide to the NanoVNA"
I have the second one. It is really useful in that it allows you to move into building a lot of RF circuits. I have found that learning to use this device opens up a lot of knowledge and experimentation. I do recommend for a new ham IF they are willing to look at it as a learning tool and except the frustrations of the learning curve.
I sure have learned a lot by learning how to use my nanoVNA. There are PLENTY of online resources for instruction. For the price, I don't see why any ham wouldn't own one. I'm not a programmer and I'm certainly not a Linux person. If you can figure out how to navigate a touchscreen smart phone, you can more than likely figure out how to use a nanoVNA.
Dave, I aggree with you "but"... I'm a tecnician level ham. The trick I've learned with my Nano VNA is simply "baby steps". I need to 1. pick my start and stop frequencies, 2. calibrate it with the open, short and load calibration tools, 3. Find my way (through the menue ) to SWR and take my reading, 4. Move the cursor along the graph if I want to home in on a specific frequency and get that particular reading, 5. then go back to display, format and choose smith(for smith chart) and I can get other pertinent readings for that specific chosen frequency. That is all I need it for now so I'm not going to strain my brain by filling it up with unnecessary information. If you don't have the $, you make the time to learn, just don't try to learn it all at once. As you get some basics figured out write them down and make your own standard operating procedure so you will have that set of instructions to refer back to. Thus eliminating some trial and error as you attempt to remember how to do it from 3 months ago! The more times you do it the more you will remember. There are some helpful videos out there, just take what info you need and leave the rest for later! KO4GJO
Or you could ask to borrow a RigExpert or MFJ at the Club meeting?
There are tons a very helpful videos on RUclips from a number of individuals explaining the functions and use of the nanovna. When I was first learning to use mine for building antennas and testing various SWR readings, I simply made a bullet list of the basic setup functions and practiced until I had it down to muscle memory. As with any type of hardware/software tool such as this, the casual and or normal, day-to-day user will probably only use 10 to 15% of its capacity. The remaining 85% is for the hardcore experimenters of the more esoteric among us.
Nanovna is not a single item. Your muscle memory will not transfer to all clones and variations. Just like different Linux distros don't work the same way.
They do indeed have a steep learning curve. And if I have not used mine for awhile, I need to retrain a bit. But for antenna analysis they are great -- all the way from 160 M to 70 cm -- and at a fraction of the cost of an MFJ product and it provides a lot more information. My model has no problem displaying SWR readings across the entire HF spectrum, something useful for trying to tune EFHW antennas, or just random wire antennas.
They also do things like measuring the loss in old coax, and whether your homebrew dummy load is purely resistive. Connected to an antenna, they can also receive strong signals, something good for detecting spurious emissions.
They are also a very stable signal generator, something good for looking at signal passbands in filters. I once set up mine on 40 M to set up a 1 kHz sweep and found I could drive a couple of miles away and still hear the distinctive signal it put out on a portable receiver on my lap. So be mindful of causing interference when using one for antenna analysis.
Overall, they are a very good investment for any ham who wants to learn more about electronics.
The first nanoVNA model, like in this video, has a tiny screen, delicate thumbwheel, and exposed sides. They then came out with nanoVNA-H4 which added;enclosed case, recessed thumbwheel, and bigger 4" screen,. Latest model is the nanoVNA-F which adds stronger chassis mounted connectors ($70). Biggest hassle is you have to calibrate it when changing bands with three cal terminators; short, open, and 50 ohm.
Those are made by different companies. The nanoVNA-H4 is a knockoff clone of the edy555 version. There's also the NanoVNA V2 (S-A-A-2) which uses a from scratch design by NanoRFE. There are companies who make clones of either with cheaper lower quality parts in order to cash in at the lowest price.
Dave, I have to respectfully disagree with you. I was a 3 month old ham when I bought my first NanoVNA from the manufacturer recommended by the original developer. Within 5 minutes after receiving it, I had it calibrated, set to SWR output display, and saved it so that whenever the device was turned on, it showed SWR on my band of choice (40m at the time). It was super easy! I built a few antennas and put it away. Later, I had the need to build a wave trap to combat a local AM station and was able to use the VNA to build a wave trap. Had I opted to purchase a RigExpert or MFJ tuner, I would have been out of luck. The name brand tuners are really nice, but since I'm not building antennas by the dozen, or using analyzer extensively in the field, it would make no sense to spend hundreds of dollars more on overpriced and less versatile equipment. In the end, I think those devices end up limiting hams to antenna tuning when there is so much more to ham radio and electronics. I would highly recommend new hams try the NanoVNA before shelling out big bucks on a name brand analyzer.
Your idea of "It was super easy! Barely an inconvenience" will not be easy to many others. The wide quality variation of NanoVNAs can be frustrating. Buying the cheapest NanoVNA is like the buying a cheap QRP radio. A pixie radio will only cost $10 but there are reasons why QRP kit radio shouldn't be a first radio.
@Sam Miller That is exactly why the original designer has a list of recommended vendors on their site. If someone wants to roll the dice on a random one from the Internet, well as in anything, caveat emptor. And come on now - the NanoVNA site has a manual and tutorials and if those aren't enough RUclips is your friend. The RigExpert is not that much easier to operate, if you want to get down to it. Point being, if you can operate a ham radio or an analyzer, you can operate a Nano. I would argue the UI and menu system on an Icom would present greater challenges.
The NanoVNA is a great gadget, I do concede that they are not intuitive to use immediately but Linux knowledge is not needed whatsoever. Outdoors in bright sunlight the MFJ and similar are easier tools to use for basic antenna measurements. MY own NanoVNA has been through a few different firmware versions, but that was simply a matter of using a software tool from ST Microelectronics to load the new firmware. Like another commenter I generally use the NanoVNA indoors controlled by a PC via USB. A benefit of using it in this way is that traces are readily saved to the computer. As with any hobby some people will buy devices that they never use... there are some tutorials on the NanoVNA online.
As others have pointed out, it has nothing to do with being a linux expert or programmer, and is a relatively easy device to learn. It is easier if hooked to a computer. Alan, W2AEW, among others, has many good videos on how to use it. Any device is intimidating if you don't take the time to learn how to use it. I have zero programming experience. Anyone that can pass the general exam should have no problem learning it. I will agree that an antenna analyzer is easier for simple swr measurement.
Hey Dave, I learned how to use a Smith Chart 55 years ago when I was 11 years old. I was so happy when they came out with all the affordable Nano VNAs! It's effectively just a Smith Chart with wires on it. The more you play with it the more you're gonna learn. Yeah, it's got some learning curve, especially if you are not already familiar working with complex numbers associated with RF devices like antennas. SWR meter can't tell you if you need to make your antenna longer or shorter, Nano VNA will & they are certainly accurate enough for ham radio use.
Not sure where Linux or programming comes in. But if you have ever used a VNA, these things are very straightforward. A bit lobotomized with only one directional coupler, but does everything my Agilent does if you're willing to manually flip the cables for S12 measurements. Yeah, the touch screen could be better. The menu could be better. But 10 minutes of poking around and you've got it. Best thing since sliced bread.
If you're familiar with an Agilent, you're not a beginner.
Dave sounds like he hasn’t done his homework on this video.
And it shows posted just a few hours ago.
I could understand him making those comments in the beginning of the video a few year ago maybe.
But not now.
I found the “ cheap “ VNA very easy to use.
And the SWR readings matched the ones from the IC 7300.
You're 100% correct that the UI is terribly unfriendly and it's far above and beyond what many hams want out of it. It is, however, possible to strip away all of the most advanced stuff and get it to where you can simply and easily connect it to an antenna, scope in on a single band, and check out the low SWR point. There's actually a great video on RUclips I saw a while back where the guy specifically shows you how to disable all but one trace, set a frequency range, and see the SWR curve. Most of that setup needs to only be done once and then you need only reset the frequency range in the future when you're looking at different bands.
I run a NanoVNA as well. The recall menu will also load your saved plots, so after you set it up once it can be as simple as "Recall -> Slot 0". Set your start/stop, traces and formats up first, do the calibration, and save it. After that you do not need to mess around with it again.
I like running with return loss+SWR (same thing with a different scale), and smith chart which is great for adjusting home made baluns. The only other trace I used was the phase trace for cutting 1/2L multiples back when I ran RG6.
Which type of NanoVNA? Sounds you're not a beginner
@@sammiller6631 I have the "black and gold" clone NanoVNA, which is a clone of the 2_2 hardware. I updated the firmware recently and it immediately recalls from slot 0. The main thing dave misses: It's not just the calibration that is saved, the trace/plots are also saved, so after the initial setup and calibration which admittedly can be difficult without a video, you just need to turn the thing on and it's ready to go
With an AA-230 if you don't know where the antenna is out of resonance or even which bands it covers you start with the SWR chart, press the "Fq. Range" button. On that screen hold down the "F" key and move all the way down the band list until you see "All". Then press "OK" three times to scan the entire frequency range of the AA-230. You'll see the dip(s) where the antenna is resonant. You can then go to "Fq Range" again and select the band you want examine more closely. Once you see the center frequency of the band you want to examine press the down arrow key and change the range setting to be fare enough outside of the band to get a closeup view of the dip.
The key is totally understanding 2 port networks. In order to do so I would suggest finding yourself an old 2nd year EE circuits textbook and a linear algebra text book (because of the matrix math involved) and you will be well on your way.
the NanoVNA's are fantastic, but you have to know what you are doing, I think the biggest issue you will run into is that you MUST calibrate them WHENEVER you change the span! If you set it up to say look at the 80 meter band (say your tuning an antenna), and then go to 40 meter and don't re-calibrate, your readings will be wrong, so that is the biggest gotcha, just re-calibrate whenever you change spans.
I saved a calibration from 1 MHz to 30 MHz for all HF my everyday use & then just narrow the stop & start from there. No need for a separate calibration unless I go up to VHF bands.
@@sfrahm1 I tried that and found pretty bad errors in reading when narrowing bandwidth, you really need to calibrate every time you change frequencies, there are only 200 points tested from star to stop, so 30MHz bandwidth will have very poor resolution and when you narrow it down those points won't be calibrated since it never calibrated them at higher bandwidth.
Oh, come on. It's not that complicated. There is a download manual which shows the "map" of the menu system. These nanovna are very accurate. I also have a tinysa which is absolutely fantastic for RF use.
Be careful with the voltage/power level going into the TinySA or it wil say, _"Wow, that was De-Lightful."_ ...and then go silent.
It's another fun tool for RF - just poke an antenna into the air to see what's going on. I love it!
I love my NanoVNA. I suggest buying from R&L or other reputable dealer. They are superior. Just used mine a couple days ago to measure isolation of a switch. Once you get comfortable with calibrating the unit (a must), you can measure SWR very easily and quickly.
Linux really has nothing to do with the complexity of the nano-VNAs. Like many 40-year-old VCRs, the interface is simply poorly designed. But it only takes a little practice - having an Elmer helps - to get going. You have to set the frequency limits (and CALIBRATE the device for those limits using the 3-step calibration process), set the kind of display you want (linear, logarithmic, etc.), and set what you want graphed (SWR, etc.).
The nano-VNAs are also fragile. SMA connectors have short lives, so attach an interface cable once (e.g., SMA-to-UHF like you had) and leave it on. One good yank on the cable and you have $70 worth of electronic waste to be recycled.
The ability to interface this to a PC (via a USB cable) makes this a much better instrument with the ability to produce, and print, wonderful graphs showing, e.g., SWR (or whatever) from 160M to 6M or beyond.
Totally agree, the nanovna is a handy tool in the shack. But, it is not a friendly tool for antenna work. And I can understand a new ham struggling to understand them.
A conventional antenna analyzer is much more friendly. And at 4 times the price. You can have a nanovna and a tinysa for a 3rd the cost too.....If you really want to learn about trabsmission lines and antennas. A nanovna and the test board are an excellent kearning tool !
Nice analysis Dave and thank you again for sharing. I myself have a NanoVna but it is true that I prefer my old MFJ 259 because much simpler as you stipulate in your video. Best 73/F8MGW
The SWR measurement is under trace types, its there :)
I understand where you're coming from, but consider the following:
1. It wasn't originally designed for Hams. It is mostly for EEs and specifically RF Engineers who don't want to buy a VNA that's the price of a used car to the price of a house.
2. As a ham I was very used to reading SWR/VSWR, but I had to get used to looking at S11 as log-mag (dB) return loss in a professional RF engineering job.
3. The UI and menu system is intentionally designed to be like HP/Agilent/Keysight, Anritsu, Copper Mountain, etc brand VNA (in other words expensive VNAs)
4. Thanks for the good laugh about "It's for Linux experts and/or Programmers" comment, I work with a lot of them and they don't know how a VNA works, again the NanoVNA is for RF engineers.
5. The learning curve is worth it, because the day you get that lucky deal at a hamfest on a HP/Agilent/Keysight, Anritsu, Copper Mountain, etc. you will be ready to use it.
73, KD8TUO
Perhaps you remember attending my presentation on NanoVNA use at Quartzfest 2022? I think k a NanoVNA is very useful, including for new hams. There is a learning curve, but not that daunting. If you are just planning to use SWR, the setup takes a few minutes, but it is not all that difficult. An antenna analyzer also has a learning curve, although for some functions is quicker and easier for someone to learn. Of course the analyzer may cost five to ten times as much as a NanoVNA. A basic tutorial would be helpful. But I don't agree that a user needs to know anything about Linux to use a NanoVNA; they just need to be able to follow a menu. 73 de W6DPS
Gotta disagree with you. Way off here. Im not a programmer and I use mine all the time. Maybe it's better for plug-and-play hams, but the device is easy to use and accurate. For the money, better than any antenna analyzer for hams designing antennae.
Very powerful device for a fraction of the price. One you learn how to use it, its easy as pie. This is disingenuous. The nanovna lists Smith chart and SWR as default. Also attaches to computer.
Maybe it's not as rugged as some, but in radio we learn to respect limitations.
looks nice david.i dont claim to be a "linix buff" but i daily drive linux, i might just pull the trigger on this, looks like fun to play on
I haven't changed to a nanoVNA, but I have a miniVNA Tiny. It is all done in software, either Java or Android (yes, I can do measurements on my phone.)
I've learned a lot, but certainly would appreciate pointers to resources to do a deep dive into what the parameters mean and how to interpret them.
That book or article on the overhead camera zlooked interesting to me. What was it?
NanoVNA is the best device for newbies of hams
Thanks!
My father in-law and Elmer gave me his VNA because he couldn't figure it out, and just got frustrated. Maybe NanoVNA came a little easier because I do have a Linux and scripting background? Maybe Dave's right there, but I wouldn't pass one up especially if you get one for free :) I'm not going to complain about mine.
Every ham should have a Nano VNA in their tool kit.
Btw, I am a programmer!
Disagree on this....IMO the Nano VNA puts a powerful tool in the hands of a lot of people that otherwise couldn't afford one. I was able to pull SWR graphs up in a few minutes on the first try. BTW I know zero about Linux and never had to use it with my VNA. 😀 I think a Nano VNA is a great tool for a new ham. No reason to spend a lot of money at MFJ or Rig Expert if you don't want to. Are they better, sure. Does the Nano VNA work? Absolutely yes! Works well.
Ive Learned Alot b y SEEING What The Changes Do. NanoVNA v4 . Blessings and I Love The Channel
I'm wondering if the size of the nanovna was really the biggest turn off here. Yes the nanovna has more features than you need, the menu is a little non intuitive. I'm an avid Linux user, but I honestly didn't know it ran Linux, I don't see how that came into play at all. Using the nanovna plugged into the computer makes it much easier to use. Buy one from the people that designed the thing so you get a quality device. But a quick youtube search had me graphing the SWR on each band within 30 minutes. I did a print of the chart and wrote down my tuner settings across each band for quick reference. Really nice to see the graph of the SWR across the band of interest so you can see how the tuning changes the plot. I'm no expert, in fact I'm a new ham and new to RF. My Dad installed his antenna and had a short in one of his coax connectors somewhere. We knew it was on the coax from the lighten protector to the antenna, it was a OCFD so the balun shows as a short. But was it the end in the air. or the one on the ground? I went over with the nanovna, watched a 10 minute youtube video and was able to tell him how many meters to the bad connector.
It's also 1/2 to 1/5 the cost of a antenna analyzer. Sorry, I can't agree with this conclusion.
I have one, I can't speak to all nano vna's but mine wasn't accurate enough. My internal radio tuner can tune 3:1and the nano was reading 2:1 and the tuner couldn't tune it. I ended up buying a RigExpert and this was reading the same SWR as my radio. The VNA was about 2:1 SWR off the actual SWR reading. They do work and not sure if mine has issues but I recommend something more reliable.
The menu system isn't that hard. Best tool I've ever had. SWR is easy. Pick trace, pick format, pick stimulus then start and stop points and get a great visual representation
Dave, I think you are selling yourself short. You are skilled and knowledgeable enough to use a nanoVNA, but I agree with you: for a lot of folks, the return can be pretty small for the effort necessary to learn how to use the thing.
I think the value of the nanoVNA is being over sold. Don't get me wrong: they are amazing test instruments. I own a couple myself, but there are some gotchas that are being ignored.
There's some controversy about just how open source the hardware and software happens to be. This has led to branching firmware, and, as you discovered, different capabilities and user interfaces. Pity the poor manual-writing author who is talking about setting the sample rate to 401 points when the reader's device only supports 101 points. As another example, some of the recent firmware doesn't have the "isolation" calibration selection; it just disappeared. So, even describing the very basic calibration steps could be frustrating.
Since there are some disagreements about who owns the hardware design, there can be serious issues with hardware quality control. I've seen some samples from certain manufacturers that were missing basic RF shielding. Also, some chip shortages have forced a device substitution even by well-regarded manufacturers, prompting at least one software distribution (DisLord's) to include a configuration switch to address that issue. Another commenter suggested doing due diligence before purchasing. That is easier said than done.
There are a lot of RUclips tutorials on using the nanoVNA, and most of them are very good. Some are a little more optimistic about capabilities than I think is appropriate. I don't care what anyone says, I am not going to try to tune a good set of cavity resonators with a nanoVNA. It doesn't have enough dynamic range for anything better than a $150 Amazon-sold duplexer.
Some commenters have talked about using a nanoVNA as a learning tool. I agree with that sentiment entirely. If you have the interest, time, and motivation to learn a bit about RF networks, then the nanoVNA is a great way to apply what you have learned. However, the goal here is to learn and then use the nanoVNA to test that learning. I think that is a different goal than using a nanoVNA to measure antenna characteristics.
And that last is what gets me to my final point: use the right tool for the job.
Can you measure SWR with a nanoVNA? Of course you can, but a Rig Expert or MFJ analyzer are much simpler to use. They certainly are a lot easier to read in the sunshine, and there's no calibration step needed.
As another example, some folks spent a lot of time designing and building test jigs to use the nanoVNA to measure an unknown inductor. But that is just one method. You can also use a simple LC oscilator and a 'scope to calculate the value. And if you are planning on doing a lot of such measurements, particularly if you are measuring inductors for use below 100 kHz, an LCR meter is not much more expensive and a heck of a lot easier to use.
Yes, there are some use cases for a nanoVNA, other than as a learning tool, that make sense. It's a good fill-in for a spectrum analyzer with a tracking generator. If you are looking at a filter's characteristics you can even see phase changes, which you don't see with the spectrum analyzer. It can be handy to find where a break or short in a coax cable happens to be. It can be substituted for a spectrum analyzer/tracking generator/return bridge combo to make sure an impedance match is good (low return loss) for a particular frequency range. And there are other places where it might come in handy. It certainly is cheap enough that you could put up with a lot of shortcomings, especially compared to commercial VNAs. (I saw that a prominent Chinese manufacturer is now offering a VNA that goes to 4.5 GHz for just under $9000. That $100 price tag on a nanoVNA doesn't look so bad. )
I guess what I'm saying is that you should figure out your needs--your use cases--and then buy the test equipment that best satisfies those needs rather than buy a bit of gear and figure out what you're going to do with it later. Too many times a nanoVNA purchase is an example of the latter strategy.
100%
Dave your comments about the menu system for most devices is not new, though it doesn't matter what computer or, indeed, paper system is involved. Nearly 50 years ago I was advocating for a discipline/profession that would be the buffer during development between gurus and end users with the intention of allowing for a man-machine/system interface to be developed that was variable depending on the users' expectations. Utopia perhaps.
For the $ savings I will learn my way around it.
What is the book you are showing, with transistors being shown as a 4 port device?
"Beyond Extra." Now THAT would be a book title that would make me open my wallet! Get on it, somebody!
Mine must be broken, all 3 of them work perfectly. They are not plug and play.
Get an MFJ259/269, or rig expert. Quick and easy, don't need to calibrate each time, like with the nano vna. After you get a basic antenna analyzer, I'd still get one of these for learning as you go.
Just bought one yesterday. Dang it.
Don't fret. It's a very useful inexpensive tool. Not hard to use if you. watch RUclips tutorials.
Don't worry about it, enjoy it!
If you bought a good unit, eg an H4, you will never regret it
If you invest some time to learn the basics(calibration, smith diagram etc.) these things are absolutely awesome and do way more than an swr meter. A good VNA can characterice antennas, amplifiers, coax and with a good setup even antenna gain. Bought an NanoVNA v2 and am more than happy with the performance.
1:45 I think he was talking about Labs comparing these cheep devices to lab quality gear.
My NanoVNA compares very well to my Agilent 8712ES that cost $29k new. It's also a whole lot easier to carry up a tower.
@@BobDarlington Thanks for that. I have been looking for someone to compare it to a professional VNA.
Vna wouldn't send him free stuff
I don’t think he has ever used.a nano vna, considering he didn’t know where the charging port was. Thumbs down to this video.
Be dsure to sdsee the followup video
All these gushing NanoVNA proselytizers sound like Linux fanboys telling Windows users that they should give up Windows and learn Linux instead. After all, Windows is expensive compared to Linux, right?
Using RE or MFJ is like learning to use a phone. Using a NanoVNA can be like a hazing ritual. They've gone through its struggle. Now they want all future pledges to the group to go through the same struggle.
It’s remarkably easy. Give it a shot. I don’t know what’s up with Dave in this video. The NanoVNA shows SWR on the screen. I know his eyes aren’t the best anymore but it’s right there.
Thank you. N0QFT