Why the Reform of the Reform is Doomed - Bro Andre w/ Dr Peter Kwasniewski
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- Опубликовано: 8 янв 2021
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My wife and I recently attended a Novus Ordo funeral Mass and we thought we were in a Protestant service. What a diminished spiritual experience.
The best thing about the latin rite is the sung version. That's the sound of the divine opening my soul
The BVM said not a word at Calvary and yet, she was no Mere Spectator! When you attend Mass, you become an Active Participant.
I love Dr K because he is grounded in faith has eloquence in speech and is far smarter than most. God bless you brother
I think the reform of the reform should be forgotten. Just ditch the Novus Ordo man.
100% agreed
Absolutely! The Novus Ordo was designed to destroy the Mass, The Church of all Time.
As a convert, I can vouch for the truth of your statement. It makes the service a LOT more Protestant, and not just in terms of the folk singing that was added. Previously the Eucharist was central to the mass. The changes greatly de-emphasized it. I think nothing has been more destructive than that.
Another thing, though, that has been hugely destructive deserves mentioning. Seminary graduates these days are a pale shadow of what they used to be. I’ve been Catholic a very long time. I’ve noticed that young priests seem far less theologically educated than they are now.
The paucity of priests also makes them very isolated. Good role models are increasingly scarce, and they’re cut off from a religious community. When you consider how demonic ordinary society has become, it would almost be like living in Hell...alone. In the old church, priests were surrounded by a bit of Heaven. It has to be extremely difficult (far more than any time in history) to live a priestly life under these conditions.
When you consider how much we ask of our priests and how comparatively little we give back, it’s amazing there are any left at all. But hang on! I think it’s going to get a lot harder before it gets better.
mediocrity is an understatement. In my city, since the 70s, we now have 10 of 12 beautiful old churches and schools closed. The buildings are eroding and the people are depressed. We once had a thriving Catholic community...now we have nothing. This is all due to V2 reforms.
I'm in a N.O. parish that does ad orientem and once a month TLM that I can't ever get to. My problem is the ad orientem N.O. increases my desire for quiet meditation. But at root it's still N.O. so there's no quiet, were always talking and responding in this conversational liturgical structure. It is still very busy and distracting.
I prefer the responses, as I know I'm a participant in the sacrifice and not just a spectator.
Don't go to be stirred by external stimuli, by sweet sounds or visual stimulation, you're there to offer the sacrifices of your own life, in return for the eternal one, which you become infused with by your offering, as it is forbidden to show up empty handed. That is true prayer and participation, which nothing outside can disturb. Your focus is not on the Eucharist, as you all say you are, but on external factors. Feelings are what water down, but the function of faith realized by your life outside the mass is the true participation. These things are not noticed, because your backs have been turned away from its fulfillment in those who come to honor it by their living imitation.
Novis Ordo Mass is Lutheran Mass
Reform of the reform - how to stop the bleeding lest VII die altogether. How these old men cling to the errors of their youth, the time of their pride of life.
Amen. The pride of their youth.
Revolution was in the air.
So it is again .
Now we have the testimony of history on our side.
The fruit from the NO Mass has been found lacking.
Weighed and exposed to be poisonous
What makes you so sure it is pride?
Recently heard at the basilica in Key West:
“Our presider today is Father X”
Making the priest the presider makes it more like a luncheon or dinner party instead of a representation of the Sacrifice on Calvary.
Awesome... Thank You...
Viva Cristo Rey y La Virgen de Guadalupe...
915 here . These are good years that we are living in.
The Return of The KING and SAVIOR.
HOLY IS HIS NAME
HAVE MERCY ON US
Sacrosanctum Concilium is as schizophrenic as my last parish, which in turn was an excellent example of the "best" interpretation of the Council--ad orientam N.O. Mass on Sundays, first Saturdays were TLM, pentacostal healing Masses on Thursdays, praise and worship for the teens, always traditional vestments and incense. It was dizzying and truly disorienting. Oddly, it was the Pope who rescued me from this in putting to bed the theory of the hermaneutic of continuity. By bed I mean coffin. My wife and I are happy to be home with the Society. Sanity at last.
This gave me such a good laugh
Thank you. I learn so much
"Falling between two stul's". I remember having that very experience when I first moved to Minnesota. I went to St. Agnes - which I had heard a lot about - because they advertised having a "latin Mass". And indeed, it was a Mass in latin. But as an experienced latin Mass attendee, I immediately recognized the difference; THIS ISN'T THE LATIN MASS!!!
"The scales fall off." This is my own case. I came back to the Church through the Novus Ordo and have respect for the rite in that regard. After not too long I thought that there must be more. A friend dragged me to the Latin Mass. I began attending and now am exclusively TLM.
The reform of the reform is a concept, an approach. It hasn't been defined -- yet. But it can be. Dont shortcut the process.
The cringe aspect of the laity reading the Bible and rendering it meaningless.
So true.
Excellent talk.
The only real reason I’m in the Novus Ordo with a ROTF approach as a church musician is to make it a “gateway drug” to the TLM
Have you found that to be fruitful at all?
Anecdotally, our family started going to an ad orientem Latin Novus Ordo, and within little more than one year we started to attend exclusively the Traditional Latin Mass (conveniently in the same parish). Now there is absolutely no way that we would go back to the Novus Ordo, even to the Latin ad orientem version. It just won't happen.
Yep the best part of the ROTF NO is that it is a gateway drug to the TLM.
Moderation, maybe a virtue, but Centrism, turning Fence-Sitting into an Ideology, is not! The Middle Way can never replace The Way!
It’s so interesting to me as an advocate of traditional faith & worship to hear tradition-minded Roman Catholics advocate for the authority of the sacred liturgy (“it forms you, you don’t form it”) and the magisterial authority of the Church, especially as it rests in the pope of Rome. Yet, it was a sacred council, called by a sainted pope, ratified by a beatified pope, lived out by another sainted pope, re-focused by the emeritus pope, and now fully exemplified by the current pope which provided the official teaching and ratification of reform in theory and in practice.
I appreciate the conundrum. But the saying by us non-RC’s that they “are more Catholic than the pope” isn’t really a joke. It’a a real problem for them, because, as I’ve noticed over the course of the last 35 years, their recognition of plenary papal authority is growing narrower and narrower until it now seems to rest almost singularly on the infallible dogmatic & moral teaching act itself, since the non-infallible teachings and practices (basically all, I guess, since Humaniae Vitae) have grown so problematic, confusing and less in line with what is presented as tradition.
I remember as a teen wondering at that as I read accounts of the Council, how the traditionalists felt the need to try to protect the pope from his own leanings, defending his authority to teach since he was teaching a broader, conciliar application of authority.
That’s a dynamic that has only festered since. It was a pope who advocated, no, taught the need for a “reform of the reform.” But now, it seems, that some laymen and priests (perhaps some bishops? any cardinals?) believe that that is - not only impractical and improbable - but dangerous.
Pope Benedict XVI taught a dangerous discipline, they say.
And I’m castigated by other “trads,” as an Orthodox, because we are “Protestant” and don’t have a “central teaching authority.” Yet, we never had a reforming council, or are obliged to accept episcopal reforms. Yet there certainly have been reforms. But the lack of that centralized institution has allowed them to be organic so that it was something accepted, gradually or quickly, and not imposed.
I hope the RC finds its way, because she clearly has been given a ministry of Servus Servorum that must be exercised unto faithfulness and unity in the coming decades, centuries. Anti-Christ isn’t resting.
I get what you're saying as someone from the outside looking in. However, our definition of papal infallibility is actually not becoming narrower - we are merely trying to return to an authentic interpretation of papal infallibility in light of the whole of Church history and how it's actually defined as a dogma in Vatican I.
During the 20th century, Catholics tended to exaggerate papal infallibility by extending it to all the opinions of the pope in pastoral and disciplinary areas. It was largely due to people having access to all the pope's personal opinions, homilies and statements as they were transmitted throughout the world instantly through radio, tv, and now the internet, as well as the popes newfound ability to travel around quickly. However, we are finally realizing that we have to be careful about putting the Pope's personal, pastoral statements into the category of infallibility. We can disagree with the Pope in good faith with regards to the changes in the Liturgy, because they were done as a pastoral act by a fallible council of thinkers, and were not done as an act of infallible dogma.
I have no problem going to the New Liturgy if I have to, nor do I think it is illicit or essentially evil in any way. I just think there were human mistakes when it was created, precisely because it was created as a human act of pastoral opinion. I simply think a large number of the hierarchy are confused about what is best for the Church because they are influenced by sneaky modernist heresies. During the Arian Heresy, most of the hierarchy was either Arian or were influenced by it, and that even included the Bishop of Rome at one point, who had to be corrected. I'm sure many seemingly Orthodox Bishops and even the Pope made confusing statements which could have been interpreted as espousing Arianism. I believe we are in a similar situation. Eventually, the majority of the Catholic Church will come back to its former glory in the Liturgy and other areas, as it always did after corrupt and confusing periods. This is just the first time the traditions of the Liturgy have been directly called into question. We will get through this, as is evidenced by the growing organic rebirth of the Traditional Roman Liturgy since Vatican II all over the world.
@@romanslav827 Very well articulated.
People seems to follow along pretty well at the Brompton Oratory and similar churches which have an established 'tradition' of Latin N.O. masses. That such 'traditions' exist also disproves the theory that these liturgies might be kiboshed at any moment.
An inversion of an inversion returns the order needed
Shared on Gab. See Traditional Catholic group over there.
Actually, the original understanding of Anglican via media was not between Catholicism and Protestantism but between Calvinist and Lutheran Protestantism.
Indeed it was.
Thank you this awesome informative video…when you were talking about longing for the TLM you hit home because I long for one so bad and living here in the DeepSouth there isn’t one for hundreds of miles …
It’s interesting listening to this now. They were mentioning the questionnaire that went out to the bishops, but this was before Traditiones Custodes. Now everything is different after that screed. The reform of the reform and the hermeneutic of continuity are officially dead. Tradition is the only way.
It's backwards. They should be vernacularizing the old Latin Mass, word for word, in its entirety. Then there would be no confusion. Anyone could understand it. As a TLM goer, that would be acceptable to me. People don't understand, it's not the bells and smells that attracts, but when you read along in your language and find that the TLM is so much richer, glorious and meaningful, you believe in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist. The NO is responsible for so many falling from the faith.
Which recording of Monteverdi's Vespro della Beata Vergine is this at the beginning?
Not Novus Ordo, novel ordinary. "Clown mass" pretty much describes it.
Novus Ordo designed to Profane God. Not to "be easy" etc. Devil's doing. Deliberate. Intentional. Stop making whimpy excuses, "fearing, pleasing people."
Pray Rosary, you are absolutely correct.
@@thomaslemonda4991
Would that we had a Pontiff to get Chuch back on track. No sense in whining for sure. O God please hear our Prayers! We need a Pope Pius X! A Catholic Pope!
How about just say the Tridentine mass in the vernacular? And leave it there. Done
To hell with the Novus Ordo
David, not to worry, this form Mass will die of its own, already numbers atending are in the decline, big time !
Novus Ordo must be abolished. A "reform of the reform" due to the Tradition will take back 1962 Missal.. xD "Reform of the Reform" it's a nonsense.
Can i get the name of the intro music please
It's Monteverdi's Vespers
Is the Anglican Rite, Diocesan Catholic Church the Ordinariate? Is this the “Anglican Church” they are talking about towards the end of this talk? Is the Ordinariate considered, Reform of the Reform?
No. It's according to the Anglican/Episcopalian Book of Common Prayer (in modern English? Not the English of the 17th century?)!
14:55
The War on Liturgies is getting ridiculous. Are we worshipping God or Man? If God, then it is the humble and contrite Heart that God wants! Not Latin vs Vernacular, etc...
As someone very sympathetic to the trad cause, Dr.K brings up a very true and potentially deadly facet of the modern trad mvt ... That of 'no change, no reform, no adaptation, ever.' Now true, a bomb was thrown into liturgy and tradition in the past century and trads are understandably wary of anything that smells of 'change' whoever slight, but the tlm itself has adapted over the centuries, albeit very slowly and in minor ways. I get the feeling, as Dr K said at the start, that for better or worse the average NO Catholic will not respond well to something even moderately like the tlm, and the overwhelming majority of the tlm crowd has been so wounded that they will suffer no change to that rite either, to the point that if Cardinal Sara's hypothetical 'third way' liturgy, which would be about 85% tlm , were to be adopted as the one universal rite of the Roman Church, the tlm trads would squawk louder than the NO pew warmers. If you've already acknowledged that the tlm as it is will not be made standard worldwide again, it's a shame the trad crowd would, in the above thought experiment, lament the 10% changes rather than celebrate the global re-triumph of the tlm, and faced with an overwhelming amount of what they expect from liturgy AND the blessing that the whole world could experience it, would probably just have an sspx redux..... As I said I'm a defender of tradition but reticence like that starts to smack of pride rather than legitimate concern for tradition.
Good thoughts
Given that the liturgy was utterly wrecked by an aggressive revolution of Modernists, a restoration should just simply be exactly as it was before the revolution and not give into its demands. We are so prideful these days that letting the liturgy sit unchanged for several generations or centuries would be the ultimate exercise of humility because it would shoot down anyone’s pretensions of having such bright ideas that are just so much better than what was there before and would force everyone to piously receive what their ancestors gave them and pass it on to the next generation.
The truth is gradual reform of the reform is the only way forward in a post-TC world. Trads can continue to draw people into the TLM, but, until TLM becomes overwhelmingly popular and traditional liturgies are in every city, diocesan priests have *no other choice* but to slowly reinstate parts of the old Mass. It's so difficult to talk to fellow trads about this because they're brick walls and would rather spout irrelevant, un-serious opinions like "abolish the NO."
I agree that the reform of the reform is a dead dog, (can’t be taught new tricks) Pope Benedict XVI and Cardinal Arenze pointed out a few things about the Novus Ordo, 1st it takes as a starter, the traditional rubrics, the new rubrics only modify the old, thus where there is a dubia, use the trad rubrics, that is why Benedict did just that. Therefore, at least from the time of Benedict, it is not an abuse to fill in the rubrics with the old. So the priests are not in error on that point. But the Novus Ordo MUST be suppressed including all the novel rites and breviary.
10:08 "musician"...Catholic shade! Lol
So the Anglican rite diocesan Catholic Church should not be?
Well... It's certainly superior to the Novus Ordo if you have no access to a TLM or Byzantine Liturgy (I love both).
@@ThePhonequeen3 God hates Protestant. Do you think there is less hate for the Anglican rite? In the Old Testament straying from the True Faith was likened to fornicating. So if you fornicate with a more refined harlot, that is somehow superior?
@@Eight-PointedStars It's an approved Catholic Liturgy conducted in a manner far more reverent than the Novus Ordo. Is it inferior to the Tridentine Mass? Of course. Is it a step up from the New Mass? I'd say so. That's all I'm saying.
Acknowledging the vague language and seeming contradictions in SC, what's written in black and white can't be thrown out. You make it sound like the exceptions or options in the document bear the same weight as the standard MO even this vague language outlines. For example, if a modern musician cites option 4 to defend some modern song, you seem to offer that that's the end of the conversation, instead of saying "ok fine but how is pride of place being respected?" The fact that the docs are so duplicitous means the more traditional, reverent, or orthodox argument can be made within their texts, with the modernists only winning the argument if you refuse to defend your position.
NO is a tired old argument for a failed experiment.
The funny thing is that this is onlya big deal in the USA.
No it is not. The Tridentine mass is being revived all over the world.
60% of Trads are in USA....I read
Well the last five minutes didn’t age well.
That's right, you are struggling against the Rock by speaking to people in a language they don't understand, you might as well be speaking in tongues without an interpreter and are to blame if the common person cannot fully participate in the mass because of it.
Place yourself at the foot of the Holy Cross. Our Lord hangs from it. He speaks his holy words in Aramaic. But you can't "fully participate" because of your lack of linguistic ability? The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is not there primarily to teach, but to offer the worship due to God. Btw, the gospel and epistle are read first in Latin, then in the vernacular. The homily likewise is in vernacular. This Mass has been forming saints for over a thousand years all around the world. You would be fine.
@@blueyedmule would we have a saint Antony if he wasn't convicted by the gospel in words he could understand or a priest like st John Vianney if not being able to learn Latin had kept him from becoming a priest?
The work of the Church is to find the lost, not to put a bowl over the lamp.
@@Zematus737 The mass is not to evangelize. It is to worship God. It is not supposed to be accessible nor are all the things said supposed to be understood fully by the people present.
@@gch8810 When the worshippers gather and someone walks in and hears someone prophesying and is assured God is with us, doesn't Paul say this is the greatest gift? So how can YOU say it's not about those who hear and it doesn't matter what they understand? How foolish you are, since it is the PEOPLE who bring the labor of their hands, so that the priest can practice his anointing in its conversion to the Body and Blood. It is THEIR sacrifices in life which the priest receives and offers up, in exchange for the ultimate sacrifice of its Author. You are badly mistaken if you think those who attend are of no consequence whatsoever. What a horrid thing to say, and if you are a priest, what vanity!
You should both understand that never has there ever been a sacrifice without an offering being provided, and the sacred pastures of God did not surround the cities of his people for nothing.
What is a shepherd without a flock? Will it not be terrible on the day our Lord returns and finds the sheep pen empty? Will your arrogance suffice in place of his sheep? I will offer a prayer in reparation for it today. Are we in need of another walk to Emmaus; are we seeing and still so blind?
The reform of the reform is the only way forward. Kwasniewski is a not to be taken seriously.
Loftonite garbage
@@carolingian5736 intelligent. But if you used half of the brain you have been given you can see why Kwasniewski is in error and encourages schism.
@@carolingian5736 What do you mean by that?
No it is not.