Will Vintage Guitars Be Worthless When Boomers Are Gone?
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- Опубликовано: 14 авг 2022
- Go check out @fivewattworld lets get him over 200K subs! Thanks to Keith, Rick & Dave for joining me in this discussion about the vintage guitar market. Will vintage guitars still hold their value when the Baby Boomer generation is gone?
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I just had a conversation about this with my drummer. I asked him if vintage guitars will hold value in the future. He replied "will people even PLAY real GUITARS in the future?" That kinda stung, because my drummer is computer software.
that's why there's less and,less musicians about and loads off records with just a computer nice to use a,drum machine to jam to
🤣 he should do a drum roll, because that joke nailed it
my electronic bass is looking for a drummer...
Johnny Roland
My laptop is the best bandmate I've ever had.
I feel like we are seeing a resurgence guitar playing, but in a way that feels detached from the guitar hero idolization and just more about making music and using guitars as tools. Yeah, vintage gear is super cool and I’m sure any other player would as well. But I think vintage gear is moving towards something like the art dealer market now, where collectors will always pay premiums for historical pieces, but players will buy what they can make music with, vintage or not.
I see this as a huge positive as it takes all ego and putting people on a pedestal out of the equation
I don't really agree though. People are still getting into music because some player somewhere inspired them, not because of the guitar by itself. Guitars don't exist in a vacuum... they are only as good as the player playing them.
As far as the vintage market goes... remember that all the players we idolized from the birth era of blues/rock or jazz were not using vintage gear, they were using NEW gear. The current vintage fetish is an complex situation. Part of it is internet hype and hero worship, sure. Part of it are people who have to get in on what everyone else is getting in on,
But another part of it is an outgrowth of manufacturers over the years lowering quality while increasing price... aka making crappy, overly heavy plastic coated guitars that don't sound as good as old guitars do.
This is somewhat subjective, of course, but for a lot of players who are at that point where they can pick whatever they want to play and have the savvy to tell the difference, a vintage American made guitar is more appealing than a poly-coated Asian made guitar.
Exactly, I am 58 years old recently purchased an Epiphone LesPaul jr made in China to play slide on. It plays well and sounds great for 450$. I play it. I would be afraid of sliding my brass slide over a vintage jr!!! And why hang one on the wall just to look at!
@@weschilton You're right that people get into music because some player somewhere inspired them, but the thing is, most of the younger guitarists that are inspiring these new players are not strongly associated with one particular guitar or type of guitar. In the old days you had guitarists that were Strat guys, other guitarists were Tele guys, and other guitarists were Les Paul guys or 335 guys. So if your hero was a Les Paul guy, you bought a Les Paul. If your hero was a Strat guy, you bought a Strat, etc. I don't think it really works like that anymore.
@@Hahnsoulo ahhh i reckon mostly it was "you bought what you can afford"
Love how Rick's perspective is different from the other guys because Rick's passion is music while the other guys passion is guitars, he sees them as tools while the rest of the crew gives them somewhat of a magical attribute a hammer can be just a great hammer or a holy hammer if you wanna see it that way.
The other day that was getting my guitar worked on and I had the ultimate luck of the guitar techs friend being there who was a gear vintage junkie, He just so happened to have a 1959 Gibson GA-83-S Stero Vib vintage tweed combo Amp, He also had some $6000 vintage Gibson guitar with him, I had a $1700 Shecter, We took turns plugging in playing power chords and blues licks, He couldn't believe that his Vintage gear loving ear found my Schecter to sound better through the amp than his vimtage Gibson, Beato understands Music is king
I interpreted it a little differently . I think Rick, from watching him for awhile now, is a lot more pessimistic about the younger generations interest in guitar music and music in general. I think he envisions a future full of music less gen-Zers not giving a crap about the old guitar players and their music, let alone their old guitars. Whether that is the truth or not, I think that’s how he feels.
his passion is youtube views
Rick is also the only guy in the room with some decent money, but i would say he’s not in touch with current older millennials in fintech who would pay $5k for a john Mayer anything right now all day and john’s custom shop stuff never comes up, would get any asking price, esp from japan. Dubai was mentioned and that’s a huge point, but japan and fintech bros….there is a lot of money out there and they just want what’s seen as cool, history or status of the actual guitar doesn’t mean anything
@@oblivionpro69Indeed he sees the future in a longer way, who will pay big money for Eddie Van Halen frankenstein in 60+ years when all the collectors and generations that loved Eddie's music are gone? The guitar is attached to the player, consider not all players started using a vintage or expensive rare or special guitars so the guitars they played lets say Cobains guitar had a value because of him and if the time comes that his music is no longer relevant nobody will pay big buck for a guitar played by him.
14:06 Rick just whacks Rhett's '65 SG with his ring repeatedly 🤣🤣🤣🤣
Its a players guitar
He's relicing it 😂
@@ottoporcer5088 authentic 'Rick Relic'
Yes...I noticed that too...Nut!
As a millennial who likes new guitars, stainless steel frets, etc., I have absolutely zero attachment to vintage instruments. YES, I DO think they are really cool to look at and I'm sure they sound and play amazingly, but I put them in the same place of my brain that I put museum items. Sure a guy like Joe Bonamassa can take a vintage guitar on tour, but as an average broke guitarist, I'd be terrified of harming something worth so much money. Great Video!
If you like the way they look you can buy a new guitar that looks at them for a fraction of the cost made to a much better standard.
@@sacredgeometry Yeah Andre, exactly my point. Modern guitarists are more interested in modern designs and functionality.
I think, it would be like with old cars - when it's old and rare, then it's priceless. Even now, fancy cars from mid '80 and '90 are growing in value
@@jimmygrant3151 i'm 19 years old and bought my first guitar only 2 months ago, but i've been interested in the music and the culture for a while now
for me, i wouldn't want a 1959 les paul - however i would love to have eddie van halens 1986 kramer custom "dugan" guitar that he played on the 5150 tour
of course, that specific guitar is currently worth way less than a 59 les paul or eric claptons "blackie", but hey, that's just me
if somebody like me wants an 86 stage played guitar, who's to say that people who are my age right now won't want a 59 les paul in 10, 20, 30 years
obviously not everyone is into guitar, less people play guitar, less people than that care about vintage guitars and even less can afford them at a high price - but as long as there are 2 people who care about a guitar that is owned by someone else and can afford to spend a lot on it - that guitars worth depends only on those people
as long as there is somebody who isnt willing to let go of the guitar for less than x amount, and there is somebody willing and able to spend that same x amount of money on said guitar, that's what it's worth
@@WhiteArcaneBM Again noone cares about old cars because of the fact that they are old, they like the ways they look and sound.
If Ferrari made a GTO to the original spec tomorrow for a fraction of the price, noone would look twice at an original.
Especially if they made it using modern tooling and to modern tolerances.
I wonder the same thing about cabins too. Like our parents generation bought all these properties and none of us can afford the asking price for them. Eventually it's gotta plummet right?
Hahahaha…good joke lol
They turn them into air b n b
Reverse mortgages
Not comparable, imo. Unlike properties, very few guitars could be considered investment.
Not when immigration is in the millions every year
I’m a Gen Z-er. When I was a teenager I thought vintage guitars were cheaper because they’re old and have some broken parts. I didn’t realise how expensive many of them are, so as a young adult with limited money due to the rising cost of living, I mainly stick to cheap second hand guitars or cheaper guitars like Squires, Epiphone, etc etc.
Maybe if I’m a musician I’ll move to Fenders or bigger named brands, but I’m a broke post college student that wants to make music to destress, so I’ll take whatever I can get.
Destress is what it's all about.
Check out Harley Benton guitars. I think they're some of the best guitars I've played. (Millenial hobbyist/destresser myself for the past 20 years).
But I've owned Schecters, Fenders, Gibsons, Ibanez, and slews of random cheapo guitars. Ive done a few parts caster builds to learn how they work too.
Guitar mods 🤤
I'm a millenial, but have been lucky enough to own some gibsons and fenders, fast forward... Ive sold em all. my favorite guitars are two classic vibe squires I own. I found a 60s inspired bound tele with rosewood fretboard and then I have a 50s inspired strat. set up proper they play as good as my most expensive guitars ive had, if you can get past the name on the headstock you'll realize they're pretty great and perfect platforms to mod. the ones I have both are single slabs of wood, i know because i can see through the paint. they arent all like that but some are, the earlier classi vibes early 2010s. Anyways, its all in the amp. get a proper amp and everything will sound good for the most part. big brands are overrated when you can get something you can build yourself for a fraction of the price that is just as good.
One day you will be able to afford any guitar you want. Will you be looking at vintage guitars then?
@@SirMo Realistically that's untrue.
@@NoMegan i own a HB and I love itn
Ive wanted a '62 Strat and was willing to pay a premium, but as I dove deeper into it, I realized I would either be buying a fake, or buying one of the "dogs" that any real collector would pass up.
A modern custom Shop would give me the playability I was looking for, and be exclusive in its own way, without getting ripped off. Ended up buying a Custom Shop burst body, a new SRV that I only used the neck !, installed Fralin pickups etc. and have a one of a kind, high quality guitar. (and sold the SRV parts for almost the purchase price!)
You describe my biggest consern about vintage... you put 15k+ on a guitar on reverb and u learn later that a real one that year had a hair under the pickup, if u dont got the hair it worth none... im sure u get the point😅
To me, the joke is that every aspect of manufacturing today is a million times better than was it was 70 years ago. You can get an insanely playable guitar that sounds fantastic for relatively little money. Why would anyone who is an actual *musician* pay vintage prices for vintage guitars. It’s like a carpenter paying a 50x premium for a vintage hammer.
No amount of appreciation for vintage instruments could ever justify that kind of price, to me. Outside of investment, it just seems insane
It's the brain and hands playing the guitar
Agreed. I've always been that guy that's like "just get a squier" or "just get an epiphone." Most of the boost in price is just branding. That's it. The same absolutely applies to vintage guitars.
@urphakeandgey6308 sort of. Vintage gibsons if they were over priced do deserve a slightly premium and not even because of their age. Shorter scale length then modern gibsons. As well as the inaccuracies in the instruments.
Gibson till the 60s used the same vintage antique scale measure system as Martin's and other vintage guitars going back to the 1800s. They sound different because their intonation is always incorrect. Especially once you account for the bridges and stop pieces often not being installed in the prime locations.
To get a good replica you're spending at least 5k plus and waiting a good year plus.
I'd a vintage jr was say 10k vs as much as 50k. It'd make sense. But gil yaron for example or the dude who built slashes famous appetite for destruction les paul as an example build better vintage clones then most of the real vintage instruments. And slashes the dude who made that used broken original 50s era les Paul's in his clones.
I am one of the “Old” guys that work at the Gibson Custom shop. We have amazing luthiers that work their that really know the Gibson vintage guitar. Interesting fact… most are not my age (50) …. Most are in their mid twenties and early thirties. And they love these guitars as much as I do.
I was there in 93-94...
Good to hear from you. what does one have to do to get the attention of the given parent? I have what may be the next great thing in guitars, in my portfolio of patents... but can't seem to get in front of anyone to get them to hear it, in person. This is trickier than it looks. I'm in Canada and looking for a representative from Fender or Gibson, to get them to give a listen, in person. In the Toronto area (I'm in Canada), if at all possible, or Montreal. This is important. As if I give up, I'll just sell it to the Asian manufacturers and you can see it come from China and the Fender and Gibson brands will be that much poorer. A man's gotta eat....
@@vanderlubbe7791 show it to me and I will make you rich and famous
@@vanderlubbe7791 try Ernie Ball. Sterling is always looking to innovate. I have his collage laptop lol.
So just curious then, how come the custom shop clones of vintage gibsons are still FACTUALLY incorrect clones and not vintage inspired at all.
The old 24.594 scale length. Nor the old scale measure for placing frets is still used. Gibson stopped that in the 60s and has never done an accurate clone.
I've held multiple real 50s gibsons and own 6 jrs from the era. The frets are not in the same locations as modern gibsons. The scales are not the same. And bridge and tail stop aren't mounted in the same ways.
Gil yaron on the telecaster forums literally did a better clone then anything Gibson has done since the 60s when they used left over parts to make special order les Paul's. Or when they had the few years that were like 80 ish percent copies.
as a 16 year old living in Austin, so many of the other musicians my age LOVE late 60's 70's guitar players, and in that group I'm the exception, as I listen to music even older than that. I think the main point that should have been brought up, is these are INCREDIBLY great playing guitars. rarity and cultural significance is not the only thing driving the price of these instruments up. The first generation of people who bought these guitars in the 50's and early 60's, didn't buy them for their connection to any massive player, as they didn't exist yet, they bought them because they were excellent guitars. I myself inherited a 1969 Gibson Hummingbird from my grandfather who passed decades before I was born, so the guitar hadn't even been played for 10 years, before it was put away. while I'm extremely lucky to own a guitar as incredible as that, I don't value it just because the rolling stones played it, as I'm not a rolling stones fan, and I don't just value it for sentimental reasons; I value it because nothing has ever come close to playing like that acoustic does. If people didn't like vintage guitars why would they buy ANY Stratocaster, or Tele, or Les Paul. There's a given value in how well the guitar plays, and I think that Is what will keep the value alive.
This is an excellent point. I'm twice your age and luckily have a vintage danelectro my dad luckily bought me when I was 8 for a couple hundred maybe and now it's worth over 1k; I own some vintage amps, that are also doubled in value; but my strats are custom shops, because 5k-30k isn't ever going to be a realistic option, because of collector value, value that I don't see, but that's the market now. Rhett speaks well about the attainability issues and honestly it's not equal circumstances. Jimi didn't buy guitars based on who played Strats, cuz he made it popular, but even after he was rich, Strats and most guitars of the time were only a couple hundred bucks compared to the hundreds and now millions of dollars, because of lore and I believe we all know this, but that doesn't really change the argument of value.. Why should I buy a strat that is vintage specs and made from great wood and sounds great, but the limitations for playing multiple types of music are glaring when you shell out 5k+ when I could buy a Suhr for the same price, a PRS custom or SE, Ibanez, even a Godin or James Tyler, D'Angelico (which is vintage company still) make just as good or arguably better guitars than those vintage instruments and any of the increasingly expensive "lawsuits" over the course of the years. There are many companies who are making incredible stuff. That said, the companies who made the great vintage stuff we all love, are not the same companies anymore (with the exception of Yamaha and Magnatone, who's new take on old classic concepts is amazing if you have 2k, imo) and have all cut corners, moved operations and sadly have abused the wood resources selling us terribly made shiny turds with quality woods that are now scarce or insanely expensive in conjunction. I'd say if people who actually are dedicated to the craft and honest in their work, will always value a highly skilled master work of labor with attention to detail and a sonic tone that doesn't necessarily have to exist making the same styles of music; another seguing topic, is all vintage gear worthless for making modern music? For instance, the MCI 500 and 600 (Sony) series consoles were designed for the future and I'd argue are still useful today, but since Ableton literally enables you the "Abililty to-do A-Ton" without having learned or gain any knowledge about how signal is actually flowing and how you are able to manipulate it, since it's plug and play and you can choose presets that compress and eq and so forth, which is arguably killing the art and craft of sonic capture at it's highest level, as Bruce Swedien might say. I would also bring to question if these daws are actually churning out better music?? There's a shit ton more music out there, but I honestly don't get the same emotional excitement or any at all of the curiosity about how people achieved sounds, because it's all been homogenized and everyone is making the same stuff of the same equipment.
I don’t really believe older guitars play better. I think that’s a fallacy. I like fender aesthetics, but compound radius fretboard, stainless steel frets, locking tuners, more stable bridges. I think modern touches on classic designs make guitars today so much better than those guitars of the past.
Older guitars do not play better. How they “play” is very subjective. how a guitar is set up is everything. Electric guitars are wood magnets and wire. It’s not magic. Comparing them to acoustic instruments is just silly.
@channtastic That's exactly right. It's all a bunch of malarkey. Who is buying these things? They can be crazy expensive, and you certainly don't need an old guitar, no matter it's value or "playability," to play and record music.
@@alexanderbelmonte9000it's crazy you mention ableton and gear AND EMOTION and curiosity. I myself have used ableton for the last 12 years. I learned the ins and outs of the saw itself but also the process of audio engineering and what im doing and why. I use a mix of software (minimally though in regards to synth work) and any type of random old "vintage" gear i can get my hands on from literally thrifting. But I wasn't always like that, because i produced EDM for years and was on course to be a "dj and producer" but I went through really tough times in my life and i found solace in my guitar once again. And my musical style and interest and inspiration shifted drastically to real live instruments and analog gear because i still like to add some electronic aspects to my music. My appreciation for gear and definitely vintage guitars is a mixture of the fact that they are the tools that allow me to express myself and my emotions in the ONLY way I've found that i can (through music and song writing) but also the character that each of these things carry with them bring a sense of emotion and mysticism because i wonder who owned this before, what was made with this, and i become almost awestruck by the gear I've collected, so it's also something that i see as magical and it isn't just a tool to me. All this being said though, i will make music with anything and everything, if it allows me to express myself in a manner that brings me joy and separates me from reality for the moments im playing, i will use it and love it just like the last, my studio now is filled with cool and rare gear, but for years i used what i had, which was hand me down passive speakers that weren't fully functional, a 70$ guitar, and maybe 200$ basic recording set up, and i made some of the most meaningful music to me and work that (from what people say) is some of the best most unique stuff they've heard recently and that they feel my emotion through it.....anyways, not to rant...i just spend every waking hour with my instruments and gear and I've grown to have a deep appreciation for each of them, old new cheap expensive....and always will, i think it all is dependent on the person who's using it, but as far as vintage gear keeping its value.....I BELIEVE 100% that there will always be a market for vintage gear because music is the one thing that has no barrier when it comes to translation.....anyone, anywhere can feel and understand the emotions that something is giving off sonically....and it has always been that way and always will....and i think that means there will always be people who's only solace lies in creating music, for the world, which will consequently mean that there will always be a deep appreciation for the tools that those who came before us used and what history and story the gear has. Sorry to rant, im not sure i even made sense. I just don't know how to word the way i feel about music and the instruments to properly explain it. Anyways, anyone who read this far, i hope you all are well. Be safe. Much love everyone 🖤
I wish Dave had a regular RUclips channel podcast, I have learned so much from him.
Lots of fun Rhett! Thanks for organizing that.
You’re the man Keith
Re' Joe Pass guitars, have a look at Martin Taylor's social media, he's got quite a collection and is very knowledgeable about UK jazz guitarists
Keith, it was great to see you here because I had no idea you were friends with Rhett. I really appreciate your channel too.
Keith is probably the best beer buddy you could wish for.
Great video, this should become a new format
Gonna need this exact crew to start a podcast ASAP… Rhett already has the remote podcasting formula in place for Dipped In Tone. Think about it… it’d be massive!
I would definitely listen to that!!
Count me in!!!
Would be so entertaining
I agree, that would be great, at least once a week or 4 times a month😉, the more the better, great team 👍👍👍
I agree 100% on that
Clumsy, I fumble sent previous post. At 67, a novice player, lifelong guitar fan, I'm glad you made this video. I think the high collector prices will continue, and that there will be future collectables that aren't just Fender and Gibson model. Those instruments are currently in the hands of today's rising stars. Happy trails!
What a great conversation. Thank you!! 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
You guys should have discussions like this on camera more often. That was both very informative and very entertaining.
Anytime Dave shows up, you know you're in for a good conversation!
As a 16 year old, I can say that I am obsessed with vintage guitars and I spend all my time looking at vintage guitars and think that they are so cool! I think the abasi guitars (and guitars of the like) are the future, but I think vintage guitars will always have their place and I dream of having a great vintage electric one day. I just got a 72 guild classical (slightly inspired by Ricks) and can say for sure that I think that there is something in vintage guitars and I think that there’s definitely people in my generation who agree. Dave’s point about Bonamassa keeping the interest definitely seems plausible to me, I’ve watched his collection video a dozen times. Just my thoughts as a gen z
I’d also add that I’m not just obsessed with the crazy valuable ones but old danelectros and department store guitars like that are super cool to me too, I just think vintage gear has a vibe that like Dave said, it won’t make you a better player but may put you in a head space you might not be in with a new guitar… and I really want to get my hands on a beato signature, can’t afford one but would love to play one!
I’m gen z as well, can’t say that I’m obsessed with vintage guitars the way you are, but I definitely think they are cool. I can appreciate the craftsmanship and “cool factor” for sure. I think that’s the general consensus with people my age. As long as most people continue to agree that vintage guitars are valuable and worth preserving, I don’t think the prices will ever really drop.
Im gonna be 16 soon homie and if I could get 58-59 burst or an early 60s es-335 or 345 I would snach it right up but I can't so I'll put together some money and get a Murphy lab 58 reissue
I’m 17 and I love vintage gear mostly because I think it just sounds better. For me it’s people like Matthew Scott who keep me obsessed with vintage gear and Marcus King who was part of the reason I bought my 1968 335. I also definitely agree that there are some people in our generation that appreciate vintage gear.
I follow this Australian guitar player on Instagram. He has couple of gibson les Pauls, an orville lespaul, and gibson explorer. What a great save up.
I love these type of videos, it's like hanging with you guys! Thank you
Awesome conversation! So glad you guys put this on YT!
How great is it that Rhett's wife filmed this--and did an outstanding job?
I was thinking the same thing
Yeah Tilly! Nice job capturing the conversation.
Not really all that cool
I'm 76 yrs old; I owned "vintage" guitars when they were new. Today, I own "re-issues" of some of them, and they are just as good or better, depending on the models you like. Our modern technology for making guitars is so much better, yet we have lost a lot of the artistic abilities of the older models. Remember, "Value" and "Price" are not the same thing!
lower quality tone woods, cheaped out pot metals, electronics, made in third world countries, 95% are a joke coated in a thick plastic shell
They may be just as good or better but they're not aged like old instruments. As I'm sure you're aware the ageing process changes the sonic fingerprint of a guitar and I do think that a lot of really experienced guitar players want that sound.
Thanks for contributing this to the conversation! Great point!
But you can never replicate the real original guitar used by Jimmy Page or Hendrix etc. they’ll always be valuable. Maybe less people will desire them, but they’ll always be the rare guitar of so and so and therefore extremely valuable.
I'm 70 and like you owned a lot of the vintage stuff (still do!!) over the years but nowadays given the excellence of even the cheaper products, happy ot have them as well. What is best is that when some congenital idiot spills their beer all over your cheapo replica at a gig, it is NOT the end of the world.
These are my favorites where y’all get together and talk music. On any of your channels. I’m not even a player but I love guitars.
I'm 28 and I just discovered The Beatles a few months ago. Well, I had heard all the songs you hear on the radio and in pop culture of course, but always felt they were overrated and had never actually listened to an album. Well I stumbled upon Eleanor Rigby by chance on youtube and thought, okay maybe there's something to these guys. I gave Revolver a listen and I haven't stopped listening to their post-help discography at work. Even McCartney solo stuff, wings, etc. They've changed how I feel about music. I've dived head first into 60's rock music since, I was always a prog rock/metal and Steve Vai kind of guy.
Long story short: I found this video because I've been watching videos about Les Pauls after seeing Lucy in Get Back and having listened to Cream for the first time and I'm really thinking my next guitar will be a standard 60s instead of a floyd rose superstrat. I'm sure I'm an outlier too, like Rhett, but we exist. No chance in hell you'll ever catch me paying a years pay for a vintage guitar though lol
For some real fun, listen to Meet the Beatles, then Abbey Road. They got more sophisticated in a short period of time. But there was always something going on. Same with the Beach Boys and Stones.
Lol Rick is just one of those guys who can’t sit down and relax without a guitar on his lap at all times 😆
One thing that will never go away is the lure and aura of history. Even if the instrument wasn’t played by someone famous, the fact the instrument has survived beyond those that played it before is something you can still feel. It is a sense of wonder. I think that will always be a part of human nature and keep vintage instruments in some kind of higher value range.
Spot on
Absolute BEST most sensible comment on here!
Jason Isbell had the same experience that Rhett had at Carter’s with Ed King’s “Red Eye” burst. He had to find a way to acquire it and I saw him and Sadler Vaden burn down the Ryman with it a few months ago. Wow, Rhett just made my point while I was typing this. Oh well, never mind. You guys are on it and I enjoy your channels!
I don’t play but as a lifelong music lover of all types I really enjoyed this conversation. Keep up the good work.
I love this community and am very grateful for videos like this!!!! Thank you!
Same!
My daughter is 19 and she listens to Zep, The Beatles, The Stones as much or more than any current artists. I also know a lot of kids playing guitar who are learning all the same songs and licks I learned 35 years ago. I have faith electric guitar is not going to disappear with the boomers.
That’s not at all the topic at hand
Tell them, Barry. See my comments about my 17 year old niece
@@DanielinLaTuna my daughters friend currently has a huge crush on Elvis thanks to that movie.
You're missing the point. It's not that people won't get into that music, it's that those people will not be interested in maintaining a collectors market for the vintage guitars that exist.
It will not disappear, any more than trumpet or saxophone disappeared with the passing of the Louis Armstrong/Charlie parker generation. But, like trumpet, it will become AN instrument, not THE instrument. It will continue to be a popular instrument because of portability and convenience and musical range. But it is no longer the defining instrument of modern music, and is unlikely to return to that status. It'll just be in the musical/cultural mix. Partly as a result of that, it is likely the market for all but the rarest and most significant vintage guitars will soften over time. The current overinflated demand is a fad that will ease. But the rarest and most significant ones will always be very 'spensive.
Would really love to see more discussions between you four. Incredible video.
I love Five Watt World! So happy to see him here!
I'm a younger millennial, and I'm definitely seeing interest in the classics from my generation and the one after it. The guitar heros of the 60s and 70s may fade from mainstream popularity somewhat over time, but I'm certain there will still be enough people around who appreciate them to keep these things valuable.
That said, my generation seems to be much less snobby about gear than the ones before it. There's snobs everywhere don't get me wrong, but it seems playing a Squier or Epiphone is much more accepted by people my own age than people older than me. I think that my generation will have less of this irrational belief that they can never make guitars like they used to, and you HAVE to buy an old one as some sort of holy grail. My generation seems as a whole to view gear as a tool, with the experience of making music being the end goal, whereas other generations seem to see the gear as the end in and of itself.
Finally there's economics. Most younger people will have less disposable income than their parents. I don't see the average millennial being able to justify exorbitant prices for vintage gear when they've got student loan payments to make. Id personally rather own a house than a '59 burst
I agree with your comment and do feel sympathy for younger generations around some of the topics you mentioned.
You can afford not to be snobby, because these days, cheap guitars are actually pretty decent. But 40 years ago, cheap guitars were just garbage. If you wanted quality, you had to pay serious money back then. So you can understand why older players would have developed a snobby attitude toward the cheaper stuff.
Excellent observations and points, I totally agree, this coming from an old geezer born in the 50's and raised on classic rock.
I agree. Even my generation (elder millennial) has had access to cheap GOOD instruments that do the job for a long time now. I think the access to those good cheap instruments has changed the perspective of young players and they (we, I'm still young right?) no longer have to idolize those old instruments because why would we? You can get what you need for less now and those classic guitar prices are still in stratosphere for the average squier or epiphone player (which is a LOT of players).
Gen Z.
I think the snobbery disappeared, partly because cheap shit is so much better now based on what I hear boomers say, but also partly out of necessity. People in my age group just don't have the purse to buy a Gibby, or even a top of the line Fender, or something like that. I'm kinda glad that this has made us drop the snobbery, but I wished that happened under different circumstances. Still, came at the right time, as cheap brands like Squier are really stepping up their game. About to go and buy my third Squier, lol
There are of course great vintage instruments, but for me as a longtime guitarist, it's always about the sonics. There are currently-made instruments that sound amazing at a fraction of the price.
And given gibson's shitty business practices over the last two decades, I would feel like a huge dork if my headstock actually said Gibson. I'm quite happy just using gibson pickups in my Ibanez. I need a floyd for my playing anyway.
I could listen to this all day. Please do this again with all four of you!
Love this topic and y'alls conversation...
I played Bernie Marsden’s 59 Burst that belonged to Clapton and Paul Kossoff before Bernie acquired it. I have to say it was the most amazing acoustically sounding electric I every picked up. The feel and playability was just amazing too. I think that is one of those magic ones. Bernie said he had a couple of others over the years that were just crap and sold them off. His ‘59 is in my hands in my profile pic, he took the photo on my phone in his garden in June 2015. I won a contest to fly to England and record with him. Spent two wonderful days recording and hanging out and sightseeing with him and his wife Fran and my wife. It was a great honor to win out of 5,000 entries.
Love the conversation. Seriously, a pod cast between you all would be amazing. The trope is, something has worth as long as someone is willing to pay for it. I think vintage guitars will maintain their value, but the buyers may be different. I don’t think many of those guitars will be bought by fans of the music, but by people looking to capitalize from the marketplace. I’m thinking about the guitars Gibson and Leo Scala did. What musicians actually bought those and are using them? With some at a $40k price tags, no musician would pay that and use it. But some attorney or doctor or finance guy looking to be cool would
The hype around vintage electric guitars almost reminds me of the hype around the Stradivarius line of violins and cellos.
They're such sought after instruments and were very revolutionary for their time, to the point where many believe them to be objectively superior. They've been thoroughly reverse-engineered and many elements of their construction have been copied by other makers, and they were also some of the first orchestral string instruments that could withstand the tension of wire strings at a time when gut was more common, although most violinists use steel nowadays. There is so much speculation as to what gives them their exact sound, perhaps the varnish, the chemicals used to treat the wood prior to varnishing, or even the wood itself - although many studies disagree on whether or not people think a "Strad" sounds better than a modern violin - and many also dispute the notion that a Strad is louder or better at projecting their sound acoustically. If you want a string instrument that projects really well, invest in carbon fiber.
Ultimately, the sound you're looking for is not only highly subjective, but dependent on so many other variables like choice of pickup/mic, venue acoustics, playing technique, and skill, or for electric instruments specifically, the settings and effects you dial in.
And whose to say that someone who disagrees with your taste in timbre is a worse listener in any way? Some people like mellow, some like bright, some like midrange or "analytical" (I can't for the life of me figure out why people call it that), etc.
Great discussion Rhett. I love all these guys.
Keith has such a great delivery and voice. He said he spent 25 years in higher education. It's easy to see that he taught well. Clear, concise, etc. (edited for grammar, for people who may be gravely offended)
Taught well. Not teached well. I hope that was just a mistake.
@@larrypower8659 come on man. Relax. The internet is filled with folks from other countries that may not have English as their native tongue? Regardless if they’re an English speaker or not there’s no need to act out like this.
@@larrypower8659 lol, yes, I know it's taught, not teached. Also, even though I do know it should be written this way, the fact that A. it was early morning for me and that B. English is not even my first language may have something to do with it. I also for some reason used spend instead of spent. Let me see you do the same in French.
@@A_Noid Touché, monsieur! Bonne nuit,
@@A_Noid No parle francais, personne n'est parfait.
I apologise for the grammatical inaccuracies, but as I said, I don't speak French.
please more of these "dinner talks"...real musicians talk is what i want. Top broadcast!!!
Great video!!thanks for sharing guys.
to listen to all 4 of you in one room talk on this topic was awsome.
I’m almost 28, and none of the guitar players I know including myself are all that attached to vintage instruments from the 60s-70s for a number of reasons. For me, though I grew up with some classic rock of that era, most of my music taste was influenced by my Gen-X dad, who introduced me to 80s rock when I was a teenager. So growing up, the “holy grail” type guitars weren’t Les Pauls or Strats, but more like Jacksons, Charvels and Kramers. I own an early 80s Ibanez Destroyer, which I was inspired to find by one of my guitar heroes- Olof Wikstrand from Enforcer, a guy who’s only in his mid-30s now. I think there will always be a market for vintage stuff, but I also think that what will be desirable will shift because the people with money who are now my dad’s age didn’t necessarily grow up listening to Led Zeppelin and the like.
Interesting discussion. I'm with Rhett on this: today's younger players will have less money (even into their 40s and 50s). On top of that there are less guitar players coming up. So a smaller market, with less money.... Hard to see how they would hold value long term.
agreed.
Yes. Especially when you can get an indistinguishable sound from the copy too.
There are MORE guitar players coming up. Guitar has become more popular, worldwide, over the past 20 years, not less.
We are going into the worst recession since the 1970's
In the last 5 or so years, the quality of cheaply made Indonesian/Chinese strat clones has skyrocketed. Laser precision in those factories now, so if quality control is good your money is better spent buying a cheap Guitar and upgrading the pickups. This is gonna be a huge factor in people not buying fender etc anymore, since often you're basically paying for a designer label.
Keith you nailed it when you talk about the demos on your channel.
Good conversation with excellent points by all.
I just bought a used, Indonesian made ESP-LTD (model H-50) for $100. It feels and plays as good as my 1995 PRS Custom 24 and 1991 Les Paul Standard. The pickups may not be quite as good, but I can replace them for $200 - $400 (depending on how fancy and handmade I want to go) and maybe the pots and capacitor, and it will be just as good as those much more expensive American made instruments. I bet my deceased dad is rolling his eyes right now, wishing I had learned this lesson decades ago.
Great discussion, guys. I've been subscribed to Five Watt World for several years and exchanged a number of comments with Keith. He's one of the deeper thinkers in the guitar world of YT. I'm 70 and spent close to 20 years in a local blues band here in SoCal, the last several years during duo work with the singer/harpist from the band. Sometimes it's just easier to get bookings for a duo over a 4-5 piece band.
Anyway, I'm jazz-trained and took my first guitar lesson as a 10 year-old in 1961. That's probably before y'all were born. Didn't get serious with the instrument until '64 when the Stones came out with 'Satisfaction'... man, that did it! I was hooked, big time. I have a small collection of fine guitars so discussions like this help all of us out here put things in perspective. My oldest guitar is a '74 Gibson ES-335 in a really dark cherry red. It's player quality as it was modded before I got to it in ~'79. Arguably the 'best' guitar I own of the bunch is a 2013 '59 Les Paul reissue I found on The Gear Page. I took a chance on it as the photos were spectacular. I'm glad I did as the instrument is drop-dead perfect in every respect. It plays perfectly, almost too perfectly if that's even possible.
I guess where I'm going to here is that while collectors will be collectors, us players can find as good as or even better than the originals in many of the re-creations that have been well crafted over the past 20-30 years. Those re-productions just keep getting better and better. You guys touched on this topic and I'm in violent agreement. In fact great repro's probably will apppreciate with time too, I'd think. Cheers!!🙂🙂
You couldn't have found a more appropriate, experienced, knowledgeable crew to speak on this matter. 👍🤘👌
14:45 totally agree, certain instruments can just get you into the pocket faster; but it's not really the instrument, it's the way you react to it.
As a 47 year old that learned years ago I liked hunting down cool older guitars that nobody seemed to want. Im ok with them going out of style so I can buy more. But I’ve always been more into collecting amps. So I have no problem with people not buying old Fenders too
Dude, you can’t leave it at that. You HAVE to tell at least one older guitar story.
My first guitar, and still in my collection, is a 1981 Japanese made Strat. I paid $300 new. It's probably worth, on Reverb, south of $1000. Maybe $900 depending on condition, specs, etc. That's 41 years ago. $300 adjusted to today's money is $900-ish. So, am I breaking even? I keep hearing that those era Strats made in Japan are "highly' sought after. Well, those prices don't reflect highly sought after and 41 year old one owner guitars definitely qualifies as vintage. I keep it for sentimental reasons and it's a damn fine playing/sounding instrument. But collector grade? Not even close.
Rick; The D’Angelico owned by Joe Pass was was in Columbia, South Carolina and owned by Dave Sims of Sims music…or it passed through his hands. Saw it at a Jimmy Bruno jazz guitar clinic years ago. He may be the guy to check with.
One of my favorite clips of all time.... you guys covered so many angles, so many feelings, so many things I've never thought of all in one sitting. I'm remembering a vintage burst fender acoustic guitar that I talked my uncle into buying in 1977, when I was 12. He took it home, said it hurt his fingers too much, and said that I could keep it at my house! He was being tactful, because he knew I didn't feel like I deserved it, I knew I could never afford it, yet he let me have it without making me feel like I owed him anything. I've been playing ever since. That guitar was lost when I joined the Air Force in 1983, and I never found out what happened to it. I have maybe 20 guitars in my house at the moment, but I never got that one back. My uncle has been gone for some years, but you just made me remember that guitar. Thanks for the glorious memory!!!
At 66 years old I’ve seen many “cycles” when it comes to guitars. I bought my L.P. Deluxe when it was the thing to have, then saw a time you couldn’t give it away. And now it’s worth 7 times what I paid for it.
I have a 1976 Deluxe and totally agree with you.
I sold my '68/9 Les Paul with P90s (upgraded to DMarzios) and bought a beat-up '65 Telecaster. Stripped it and oiled it and modded it. Do I miss my LP? Only kinda. Do I love my Tele? Only kinda. I prefer my partscaster.
7 times? All of a sudden, I now instantly miss my LP Deluxe sunburst I bought back in 1973 when I was 18. I think I need a beer.
Right! I have a beautiful 74 gold top deluxe. Every time I open the case for anyone ages 10-80 their eyes widen and there are audible gasps.
Fellow LP Deluxer here (68/9). I've fallen in and out of love with it several times since I bought aa a high school student in the mid-70's. Never thought of selling it.
I'm in my late 30s- my dad introduced me to music with Clapton being his favorite artist and that cover of the Cream of Clapton with that Strat and the trenchcoat was just the definition of cool for me in those developmental years. My dad wasn't a player, just a music lover. All this time later, most players I know are still mostly Fender/Gibson players. I am still a Fender player over 2 decades later. My 4 year old son just told me his favorite guitar is a Stratocaster this morning.... obviously that's clearly influenced by him seeing me play mine, but that influence IS happening and that cycle could well continue in him.
Another very very amazing Video! It‘s so interesting to hear these guys with their history, experience and backgrounds talking about their thoughts on that topic. It couldn‘t have been a more interesting round. Im also 32 and started to dive into this music, when I started to learn the guitar 6years ago or so. You can‘t play the guitar without wanting to know the history and the heroes of it. And depending on your Personal hero of that time you will probably select your dream-guitar (SG -> ACDC, Strat -> Prince, SRV, etc.).
Prince's guitar from debut album to his last great album, 1999, was a blonde Hohner Telecaster copy. I don't think he ever played Strats but Dez Dickerson his extremely underrated band guitarist did as well as other guitars like an Explorer type he used alot on Controversy and 1999. But you are 100% right that as you are growing up your guitar idols greatly influence your guitar preferences.
Well done Rhett for showcasing this discussion.
I'm so glad you guys mentioned Brain May's Red Special, would be VERY curious to know what his original Red Special would be worth one day. The other Red Specials made by Guyton and Fryer are incredible, but Brian's is beyond replaceable.
Great typo! "BRAIN May". He is an Astrophysicist whose designs HAVE gone into space! The Antithesis to the "Dumb Rocker" stereotype!
Brian May's guitar will end up in a museum. Just how Willie Nelson's "Trigger" will. Because those guitars are stars themselves. And have a story behind them. Dimebag Darrell used many guitars in his unfortunately cut short career and he had like a collection of 300 guitars he played.
as a 31 year old player, the value of vintage instruments has been instilled in myself and those around me. There will always be value in the "first" of early models or anything iconic. I see it retaining its value. Perhaps continuing to increase, but at least retain.
A great conversation. I've been wondering about this for some time-- ever since I heard someone call a mid-80's Fender "vintage". There's a HUGE potential for other great conversations with these guys that I hope you've already considered ;)
BTW Kieth: glad to see you've surpassed that 200K subscriber threshold!
I done care, fellas, I love vintage Gibsons. Had a good number of them, living well because of the insane worth of one. Hated letting her go, but I'm ill, arthritic hands, and a few other problems. But I held on to my ES-125 and play in Tunings, Drop D, Drop C, Drop D& C, DADGAD, and other Tunings with slide, and easier fingerings. Gibsons Rule('59 and earlier. I had a '60 Les Paul Custom, that was bought for me at the age of ten. One year after I stopped playing her, I let her go. And the person who got it seemed like they were the happiest person on the planet. I couldn't see her just sitting in her case, not being played. That 🎸 was SWEET!! Never had a problem with her, and she always recieved regular and as needed maintenance, and other than refret jobs, as I always used wide, thin frets for speed and precision, I never had a problem with her.
LedHed Pb 207.20 🎶 🎸 🎹
These kinds of conversations are great and so fruitful beyond guitars. It models how to talk, discuss and even disagree in a world where it is becoming a lost art.
getting chills as I'm reminded of the legacy of the music of the 20th century. I truly believe that in a thousand years, people will be exploring the cosmos, and listening to the Rolling Stones. And Keith Richards will be like: "Hey! That's me!"
... Keith will still b around n look the same 😆
Great discussion. Thank you kindly
This actually is a wonderful video Rhett. I have a friend who is very close to Derek Trucks and it must be very interesting to listen to some of the "geek talk" that happens in the music world of the pros.
I'm not a boomer and I revere vintage guitars. I do wonder how many people will value the great music of the 60s and 70s after the boomers are gone.
oh the music's great. It just doesn't make sense to spend more money on an older instrument when you can go get a cheap new guitar and play any music from any decade you want
I love vintage guitars/instruments but they make no sense at all for us. We tour a lot and we need work horses not vintage guitars
These two statements are completely different though.
“I like expensive cookware, but I wonder if people will still like meat and potatoes in the future”
Meat and potatoes is great, and a $100 chef’s knife isn’t helping you make it taste any better- without practice.
@@jordangarcia6701 it does if you are rich. Collectors are rich. Scarcity will probably synch with demand for at least as long as people still make analog music. IMO
not a lot of people because that music is not that great for starters
The Red Eye story reminds me of the history of Peter Green's burst. It's almost as famous for having been Gary Moore's burst. Sometimes provenances will build. It's like Itzhak Perlman's Stradivarius. It belonged to Yehudi Menuhin before him, and traces back from there through various hands, including well known French luthier Jean-Baptist Vuillaume, and a Viennese collector named Oscar Bondy. One suspects this sort of thing might be tracked on vintage guitars, if they hold up in good shape.
Love this video! I would love to see more of these…
I was 18 when Back In Black came out. My friend’s 7 year old Grandson plays it daily. I have no idea what Trini Lopez music sounds like, but if I find a Trini at a good price I am buying it. The market will go up and down, but it will not go away.
The big thing I feel that was missed in this discussion is value. Younger players want a tool that can do multiple things and tick multiple boxes. The old school guitars(tele, strats, les pauls etc.) cannot do as much as a new Suhr or Schecter. Also, instruments are tools. Who wants to take a 6,000 dollar Murphy Aged Les Paul that is pristine over a used Les Paul standard thats been broken. Or a tele style guitar that was affordable and can take the brutality of the road.
Its not a matter of if the new generation will appreciate the older instruments, its a matter of can we justify the price. My answer, nah.
Not to mention James Hatfield immediately switched from Gibson to ESP
How can a Schecter do more than a tele or strat?
Fishman fluence
Good discussion. I’m in the middle of really 4 generations of guitar players. My Grandpa passed a couple of years ago and left me his 59 Gibson LG2. He was an old school country boy. And you can tell looking at the wear on that guitar he was a country boy. My Dad plays and like me has become obsessed with guitar. Mostly stuff from his younger years in the late 60s and 70s. Les Paul’s, 335s, etc… Im 43 and I grew up on a mix of 70s rock, blues, etc… But also a lot of country and a lot of grunge in the 80s and 90s. Again, I have LPs, 335s, Teles, etc… But my 20 year old nephew could care less about those. He’s all about the 7 and 8 strings and 5 string basses and all the new stuff. He’s by far the best player in the family. But he doesn’t even own an amp. He plays strictly through his computer. He comes to my house and goes cross eyed looking at my pedal board with 6 pedals on it. He just doesn’t get it.
All of your points really make since. And my family seems to kind of be the whole discussion in one group of people. It’ll be interesting to see where is goes.
When most of these artists ( not all) were playing they played what was available..Hendrix played 'em off the shelf. Best statement...how does it make you feel!
Imagine how Jimi would have sounded playing a 40 year old stratocaster.
I really enjoyed watching this video. Good one.
There will always be those who search for the "Holy Grail" of vintage instruments. As a musician, I'm not concerned about the "vintage" of any of my instruments; it's about how they play, how they sound, how they appear, and how well they perform when I am performing. The instrument is a tool, albeit a desirable tool that we musicians use to make music!
I think your philosophy about the subject is correct, it is how instrument react while you use it, regardless its age. Regards
Having once owned a real ‘59 …I can say that it was one really nice guitar…it’s not just the wood…it’s the people who made them.
Love love love my 1964 Gibson that I got from my grandmother. Play it everyday
To me it's kind of a bullshit reason to pick one guitar over the other, but if that's what makes you happy that's what's best for you :)
I think that's a fair point. One major difference I think this current generation has over previous is that they didn't have several production model singlecuts of similar or greater build quality to chose from. Now a days to get a high level professional instrument to record or tour with you don't need to buy a guitar from 25-50years ago.
Once you find a great vintage guitar odds are you wont find a new one thats as good . Ive played hundreds of guitars over 45 years
Played a real 59 burst with my R8 with early heritage historic in it back to back. Same amp same settings. The 59 felt old and wasnt easy to play. But acoustically it was considerably louder. The rel one didn’t clean up as well, but the sweet spot was the sound. The R8 we had to play around with the tone some but was able to replicate to the point it wasnt indistinguishably different back to back. The modern r8 neck is damn near exactly a real 59 neck. Felt identical.
Great discussion guys 🙌🏽
Its always if the instruments that are played by known musicians then its worth something as a collection or conversation piece. Im 44 now and owning a Gibson LP Traditional 2018 and AM Fender strat signifies that you have come to that level in your life that you truly worked for it.
It's interesting that no matter what, guitars never up in the landfill. I have seen whole houses demolished and put in dumpsters and someone walks away with a salvaged guitar. People go to great lengths to keep musical instruments alive. They will always be worth top dollar.
Really fun to listen to you guys chat about this! Fascinating topic.
The electric guitar is a virtuoso instrument and it is here to stay, just like the piano, violin and voice. Like Chopin and Beethoven, Hendrix and Page will still be relevant hundreds of years in the future.
Well put.
@@NolanVoid-dr1ch not sure what the market is like now but in the past the values of certain Gibson , Fender & some Gretsch models were built on hype and BS. They were being compared to antique instruments from the 1600s or something. It also made them 'investments' , something to lock away rather than being played. $300 000 for an LP? NO
Some pieces of equipment just seem to have a halo around them, and they don't have to be 60 years old, but that "presence of greatness" factor is much rarer among the modern mass production guitars for whatever reason
what you fail to consider is the role of institutinalized high culture in preserving and perpetuating the classical canon. Chopin and Beethoven absolutely only play such a big role because we have a whole high culture industry which is 80% publically funded in almost all countries around the world. These institutions preserve the skills and institutions necessary for this art to prevail and in doing so their cultural prestige get's renewed and tought from generation to generation, completly detached from the number of people actually listening to a Beethoven symphony in concert.
If this kind of music would be dependent on turning a profit in the free market and people spending the kind of money that it would cost to actually operate a opera or a orchestra, this kind of art would have been totally obliterated 70-80 years ago, along with the kind of classically, academically trained musicians. Who would spent a decade of their life with 12 hours of daily training to learn to play a 400 year old string instrument when there is no way in hell to make a living off of that?
This was wildly entertaining. Keith’s points really stuck out to me, and he’s so well spoken even without a script!
Anytime the Fab Four can get together in the future I will watch every second.
I call them "The Dream Team" 👍🤩
This was such a good video! I also wonder what the impact of good boutique builders will have in the future? As someone that worked in a guitar shop for a few years I always felt that the people around me were always more excited about the money they were going to make of a vintage piece (and there's nothing wrong with that by the way, it was a business after all) rather than the vintage piece itself... And circling back to the original question I posed, personally as someone into guitars I'm more interested in for example in Rhett's Novo guitars than I am that Gibson, I can't help but look at certain vintage guitars as a speculative commodity rather than an instrument if that makes sense.
All of them made a excellent point but I'm actully surprized of Rhett Shull's skill to host a discussion.
fantastic video I'm completely delighted
BTW--I like this set up of you guys sitting across from each other and around the room. I like it more than every one starring straight at the camera. Here I feel like a fly on the wall watching a real conversation of knowledgeable dudes having a visit.
I have the same feeling as Rick about muscle cars of the 60's that go for insane amounts of money. Once all the boomers that drove them and lusted after them in high school are gone, will they still hold their value? Cars of the 30's 40's and even 50's... some beautiful works of art - even more so than the muscle cars, only sell for a fraction. The folks that coveted them in their era are now gone or quickly fading away.
IMO, only the rarest cars/guitars/whatever will hold value and continue to go up. All the me-too classics that have been riding the wake will probably decline in value over time as the collector pool shrinks.
I think ‘70 Chargers will keep being desirable. FnF made it an icon. And... I have a ‘70 440 Six Pack 4 speed Dana R/T.
A Bugatti from the 1920s will fetch astronomical prices , some bloke in South America will build you an exact replica for around a million dollars . Nick Mason from Pink Floyd has a birdcage Maserati he paid 50 thousand pounds for when they started making money , it is worth three million now .
But a vintage car is not superior to a modern car in the way that a vintage instrument is superior. Metal wasnt better in vintage cars, in most cases it was worse. But the wood that vintage instruments were made from is gone now, and it is of much higher quality for making instruments. I do not think cars are a good comparison because vintage cars are 100% nostalgia, while instruments are about function.
@@elecengineer46 That's highly debatable whether a vintage instrument is actually objectively better, let alone "much better" to the point of being worth orders of magnitude more from function alone. But even if we accept it for the sake of argument, if that vintage instrument is played, it's going to reach a point where it's not better than a modern instrument because it will need a fret job, at which point the owner would have to decide if they want to tank the value to keep playing it, or sell it to a collector.
It’s all in peoples heads that an old guitar is better.
Great discussion
I absolutely agree with Rick that as time goes on the average value of vintage guitars will greatly decrease. This will be due to many factors including economic and social changes. We have aa see seen similar changes happen in several areas (cars, motorcycles, and other personal items). Reproductions only help to fuel the overall decrease in vintage prices. The relative cost of famously owned and historically relevant instruments will remain. As always 'investing', including in instruments, requires an excellent understanding of the market and when to buy and when to sell.
Stradivarius violins are still popular so I imagine the same for vintage guitars. There may be a dip but there will still be a market.
Stradivarius are sky high due to Chinese investors. $20 million or more.
This is a fascinating conversation, and it would be great to explore other "collectible" items and their value over time. I think it has a great deal to do with emotional attachment and nostalgia, as well as supply and demand. Vintage cars and motorcycles values have continued to rise over time despite the fact everyone living when they were manufactured is dead. I think the truth is in the middle. There will be less buyers interested in vintage guitars, but they will be more interested and more dedicated buyers chasing less and less inventory. Inflation will continue to raise prices incrementally, and the rarest and most desirable items will cost a fortune. The more things change, the more they stay the same:)
What an excellent conversation.
I believe that as long as the original guitar still exists out there, the value of the reissue will keep on increasing.
I’m 21 and I started playing guitar about 2 years ago and I never really listened to Zeppelin or Skynyrd or Hendrix until I started playing, I think they will hold value because I feel like a lot of guitar players have their idea of the “perfect tone” and a lot of that idea comes from their influences and while nobody can exactly replicate tone you can get a lot closer to a song recorded on a ‘64 strat with a ‘64 strat than you could with a reissue or modern strat…there is also that mystic and idea that playing that original ‘64 strat is as close as you can feel to becoming that player that you idolize and look up to
With my cellist hat on, I would say that Rhett's point about vintage violins is the key one here. The value of old Italian instruments continue to appreciate in value far, far faster than the rate of inflation. Likewise, there is an observable historical broadening of those instruments that are appreciating at a high rate. Perhaps at one point, it was the handful of greatest makers (Stradivari, Guarneri, Amati, etc). 50-70 years ago, the so-called second tier of Italian makers like Gagliano, Guadagnini, Storioni, began appreciating at a crazy rate, followed then 30-40 years ago by makers like Garani, Maniani and Testore. Now 19th C. Italian violins like Degani are worth 10 times what they used to be. Keith's point about the difference in degree of craft involved in making a burst is a fair one. I expect as the years go by, the rate of increase of bursts might level off compared to handmade acoustics, but I'd be flabbergasted if any of these ever go down in value. The ultimate reason is simple - a history of going up in value coupled with the fact that there will never, ever be any more real 59 'bursts made. And, as Keith says, the woods are irreplaceable.
I came to put my violinist hat on, but you did all the work for me!
Orchestral instrument shopping is so different from electric guitar shopping. There’s no importance placed on looks. The maker’s name isn’t on the headstock. My Albert Topa picked me because it matched my play style. I didn’t seek out a Topa!
If you’re lucky enough to have the opportunity to spend an entire day playing every string instrument in a workshop they can afford in order to find “The One,” you know that tonewood is a very real thing.
(And for the record, I much prefer Guarneri over Stradivari. The timbre of a Stradivari is like a coloratura soprano while a Guarneri is a dramatic soprano. Yet Stradivari is the household name. What is the most famous or has the most cachet doesn’t mean it’s your taste. Taste is subjective!)
Great points. The difference seems to be that the historic great violins are sought after by highly skilled performers, not just by collectors.
Guitar collecting, by contrast, has a "comic book/hobby" feel to it that is a totally different animal, where people who collect them (or even just buy them at all) are mostly amateurs. The greatest guitarists of today have never, for one moment, thought "hey I need to have a vintage burst Les Paul in order for me to sound like the best in the world." No electric guitar will ever have that level of tonal signature, regardless of the level of craftsmanship or notoriety. A drum could, theoretically, but they don't.
Without going deep, all the example you bring are connected to players that can extract from the instruments something special and recognized by experts. Even within that level of quality, many players will state that some of those makers created instruments that are not that good.
@@audibletapehiss3764 That's not actually true re violins. The greatest instruments are now long-since out of the reach of even the most successful soloists. If a top Strad goes on sale today, it will almost certainly be bought by an investor/collector and then loaned to a player.
@@oldtimer99 At the highest level, values of violins have almost nothing to do with how they sound. It's all down to pedigree and condition. That said, a good luthier can make almost any old instrument sound tremendous. The masters really didn't build any duds, but there are instruments of extraordinary value which are not in great playing condition, but that's very much a fixable problem.
We can only hope, can't wait to get my hands on a 1950 Broadcaster
Nice talk! We need more of these sessions!!
Preferably with a glass of scotch on the side. And a fireplace. 😂