Jamie Lewis: Masculinity & Muscularity - The Historical Connection
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- Опубликовано: 1 окт 2024
- Join us as Jamie Lewis dives into the historical link between muscularity and the ever-present "crisis in masculinity." We also chat about training and react to the new Phil Heath documentary! 💪 Bring your questions and comments!
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Back after watching the whole thing. Always food for thought and after chewing I have this to say.
The Charles Atlas ad was titled 'The Insult that Made a Man out of Mac'.
A clear indication that it to do with the acquisition of maniliness or masculinity.
I quote from Page 329 -12 Rules for Life by Jordan. B. Peterson. As Dr Peterson has something to say about the ad.
The ad is famous for a reason. It summarises human sexual psychology in severn straight forward panels. The too- weak young man is embarrased and self conscious, as he should be. What good is he? He gets put down by other men and, worse by desirable women....he presents himself what Alfred Adler, called a 'compensary fantasy'. The goal of such a fantasy is not so much wish fulfillment, as an illumination of a genuine path forward. Mac takes serious note of his scarecrow-like build and decides that he should develop a stronger body. More importantly he puts his plan into action. He identifies with the part of himself that could transcend his current state, and becomes the hero of his own adventure.
Targeted at adolescents but the idea of 'compensary fantasy' could apply at any age that you feel insufficient or had to deal with the proverbial sand kicked in your face.
As Jamie says dealing with a loss. You want to return as the hero and a means to that end is physical culture. To return stronger, better and to become the hero in our lives.
Actually I would say that Jamie's attempt to lift his maxs in his new form is definately a masculine endeavor, but he may disagree.
The Atlas Ad was way before my time. A film shown on tv that did have a profound effect on me when I was young boy was a British comedy from 1955 called 'Geordie'.
It's a sweet film and details a young boy's desire to overcome his insufficiency. It also stars the excellent Alastair Sim. The Poster is great.
letterboxd.com/film/geordie/
I suppose the Arnold of old would say in a pithy way, don't be a girly man.
Alternately the idea of readiness for another war where you could serve your country with honour.
Is physical culture a preparation for war?
Bodybuilding is littered with war like metaphors.
Pumping Iron has the advantage of not having to deal with the politically correct crowd. Arnold shows a love of life and particularly women throughout the film. It's a man's film where you see women as beautiful adornments. The scene with Arnold with the exerciser with beautiful women holding his legs and looking admiringly up at him is worth seeing. I know it's an advertising fantasy and sexist, but I appreciate it. Mike Katz is the lovable underdog and family man bring heart to the story. Also an immigrant's success story. Very much the American dream.
I would watch it again even with knowledge of the behind the scenes bullshit.
Whereas Heath's documentary has the major flaw of having him in it.
Stind, I'm going to start petitioning you to write my video scripts. You sum up many of my same thoughts with such consistent eloquence. I'll check out that film recommendation too.
Jamie's comment regarding "dealing with loss" was different words for the same point as I was making regarding the crisis of masculinity in the post WW1 and Depression years; except he was adamant the connection with physical culture had nothing to do with masculinity.
I mean, ignore the reams of literature dedicated to the study of this very topic all you want, but one can't transpose their own worldview on top of something that is recognized and corroborated as historical fact.
Same goes with the nonsense about the pervasive ubiquity of homosexuality in ancient Greek times. If it's the case - reference me some serious and credible ancient sources to back up the claims - but don't disavow any counterpoints that collide with one's assumed fantasy of how things were.
These guys are the best. I love Jammie. I’ve been following him since his C & P days probably 2017.
You're awesome man with your support of the show and your very kind monetary contributions. We appreciate it so much and hope you get some entertainment/education from our banter sessions
I disagree with the masculinity comment. Men have an aggressive tendency in our DNA. The male lion, the alpha, does serve a purpose. He keeps everyone in the pack in line. He's the first one to protect the pack. Men have these exact same tendencies in our DNA. A good definition of masculinity is a set of traits, behaviors, characteristics. These behaviors, traits, characteristics are to protect, provide. Every man should have the capability to be violent and or aggressive when necessary (protect). Every man should be able to bring in an income, able to fix things, provide a safe household (provide). To say masculinity or to be masculine is "not a thing" is untrue in my opinion🤷
To be clear I am a HUGE fan of Jamie. I loved C&P back in the day. C&P under Wayne sucks honestly🤷 I'd love to take it from Wayne and own C&P 🤣
Lions are a matriarchy, and among wolves "the alpha" is a male and female couple.
My point was there is usually an Alpha in most animal "packs". silverback Gorilla's have an alpha male of the group who is usually the leader and calls the shots, they have a purpose. Men are meant to have the same purpose in their household. Protect and provide. That's what masculinity is. Masculine men are problem solvers. They provide financially. They provide protection. There are many definitions and examples of masculinity.
Totally agree. There's a definitional nuance to the context depending on time, space and place - but there's definitely some hardwired consistencies that are present no matter the geography or the people. Dismissing it because it doesn't fit your politics or worldview is nonsensical.
Lions are both. Female lions maintain the social cohesion, but the males are the dominant protector of the pride. The males come and go or are replaced by challenges from other dominant males. When the male takes over, he will murder the remaining cubs and the female gets no say in the matter - from what I've read anyway. If I'm wrong, please correct as I'm not an expert on lions by any stretch
My take on what makes a man masculine.
1. Takes care of his wife/children/parents and family before all else.
2. Hard working, in a leadership roll in the work place, and captained sports teams as a youth.
3. Physically and mentally strong. Probably attractive to men and women alike regardless of orientation.
4. Respectfully to all, yet people know not to test them.
5. Lack of ego, a truly masculine male knows ego is the enemy.
6-10. Legitimately doesn’t care what other people think.
A good summary of masculine qualities - hard to define in a single sentence when someone asks "what's masculinity". I think the poem If by Rudyard Kipling provides a good, timeless encapsulation also
Not trolling, these traits genuinely describe my super Catholic grandma perfectly, who is quite feminine. (but sub husband for wife of course in the first one)
@davidbruehl great point actually - yes, many women indeed embody many of these very qualities.
Shawn not sure if you’re familiar with his channel but a fellow Aussie named Russell Walter would be a great guest regarding physical culture in Ancient Greece. I think you guys are on a similar wavelength and I see what you were trying to explore by asking that question.
I’m surprised Jamie couldn’t see what you were getting at. Even if he didn’t agree with your premise about masculinity the discussion it leads to is far more interesting. I remember doing a paper on masculinity for a sociology elective (surprisingly a good class that I thought would be boring) and a good term to use that avoids the semantics disagreement would be hegemonic masculinity.
TBH I was caught a little off guard with Jamie's position and felt like the conversation was being derailed with a bunch of straw man arguments and non sequiturs. We set a topic to talk about each week and I let him free style the majority of the discussion guided by and prompts or questions from mine or the audience's side. If I knew it was going to be a debate I would have come better prepared, but when I sensed the conversation going over a cliff, I pulled up my research I had done earlier on the pumping iron topic and masculinity to feed a few direct quotes to counter some of his claims. I didn't think we went anywhere with that topic - when every fkn discussion no matter the topic devolves into a flurry of irrelevant identity politics or ridiculously reductionist labels of "left wing or right wing", it kills any rational discourse.
I'll look into Russel's work and see if he's interested in a discussion. Thanks for the comment!
@@carvedouttastone You're a gent mate, I could tell you were trying to be polite and it gradually wore on you. I would've loved to see what Jamie had to say about it had you got to canvas your argument further which would've been interesting, specifically the way those ideals which were the cornerstone of hegemonic masculinity have been castigated in modern society. And the knock on effects it has had on society.
Jamie brought up the point that right wingers or chronically online men are the only ones who care about the topic but he failed to realise that what helps to explain this pipeline is the erosion of male role models (not just in popular culture but in the family aka father figures imo) who embody these characteristics. It's not a huge leap to see how young men fall for the warped views on masculinity that go viral on social media as a result. But alas it wasn't to be.
Keep it up though mate, very thought provoking topics.
Hey Jamie, if you look at any homo-sexual couple, male, or female, you usually have one person taking on the masculine part, and one is for the feminine part. So apparently there is such a thing as masculinity and femininity, beyond those concepts that society, according to you, put in our heads?! Furthermore, could it be, that your own bi-sexuality creates a cognitive dissonance within yourself? Because you possibly cannot accept that you like men, but at the same time considering yourself being a masculine male?! Oftentimes we were taught that " a real man does not look at other men in that way". How about that, Jamie?!?! How about that you possibly just cannot see yourself as a manly/ masculine man, no matter how hard you try?! Is that why this topic riles you up that much, because you don´t live up to your own idea what a masculine man ought to be? Btw, no need to answer this, just food for thought!
You said any homosexual couple, but this to me seems to be a simple imitating of norms that are instilled in the general population at the moment. Similarly questions about gay marriage etc. why do we need marriage? Why do we need to be couples? If you examine history, you will find that concepts such as family, private property, the state are far from fixed in any sense. They vary enormously. Take away the economic foundation, slavery , feudalism, capitalism etc and how people will interact will change massively. What you think of as fixed and eternal reveals itself to be momentary. You may have worked out I see myself as a Marxist.
Oliver Reed was the epitomy of masculinity. He was the real start of his last movie Gladiator.
Many of those old actors oozed it effortlessly - from Brando, Steve McQueen, Oliver Reed, Clark Gable and Charles Bronson to name a few
Yo,Jamie! I found a PDF biography of Colonel Montsery of fencing and 19.century MMA ,which features some details of his youth and warrs in Latin America! I know ist probably exaggerated ,but damn - Monstery was a crazy MF 😂😂😂💪
Great podcast! My man Jamie Lewis= the walking jacked supercharged encyclopedia of strength history !! 💪💪 / Balbos here
I always got a "something is off vibe" about Layne Norton!
You mean that smug, self righteous, butter wouldn't melt in my a$$hole kinda vibe? Completely understandable.
The Undisputed movies were all excellent, even the first one with Ving Rhames. The last 2 focusing on Boyka were incredible
I have serious gaps in my movie watching History. I'll check it out - thanks
Only half way through a fascinating discussion and important things to consider. To define Masculinity in a simple way is tricky. We know what it looks but difficult to articulate. I pulled out my copy of 'The Way of Men' by Jack Donovan. I would agree with you that Masculinity is linked closely to martial tradition and definitely a mens movement.
Masculine values emerge from the necessity of being part of hunting and fighting groups for survival of your tribe. As national identity arises due to the process of civilization, there is the need to defend it and to aggressively pursue its interests. You need the right people to do that. The right people are men who embody Strength, Courage, Mastery, and Honor.
Strength is what is being sought through physical culture.
I quote from page 27
If we are making an honest attempt to understand and define masculinity or manliness as that which is characteristic of men, physical strength must figure prominently in that defination. The Way of Men is the Way of the Strong- or at least the stronger.
Muscularity is an indication of Strength, which is prominently a characteristic of masculinity.
Further points.
I like how you trace back to the concept of Physical Culture to Hippolite Triad. People take ideas for granted and often don't realise how revolutionary they were at the time. By exploring them in their context you get a deeper understanding.
Talking about the attempt by individuals to regain control of their lifes, after the devastation of WW 1, through Physical culture made me think of Alan Mead. Even today a great inspiration.
I hope it does not read as muddled.
A video on Muscular Christianity would be interesting. I heard the term bandied about but know little. Definately a part of the Judeo Christian ethos of western societies. A lot of people are getting interested in the foundational values such as the enlightment values as a defence against more radical ideas.
John Hansen is pretty cool. His contributions through his interviews has produced great content for anyone interested in the personalities and history of the iron game. Truely loves the sport. Worthwhile to interview him.
Id love to get John on, but don't know if he'd be willing. I'm gonna get Conor back on as he's penned a lot of very good academic journal articles on the history of physical culture and its connections to masculinity because I think it's a topic worth unravelling with a bit more depth.
You sound like a fantastic resource yourself - do you have social media where we could connect?
@@carvedouttastone
Thankyou that's a real compliment. I don't really do social media apart from RUclips. Otherwise work keeps me pretty busy. I really enjoy your content and it gets me thinking and gives me the opportunity to express myself. The written word is crafted whereas in real life authors are less eloquent than their work, but certainly more eloquent than the non writers. As people move away from books they are losing that concentration of thought that goes into them. I like your video essays because of your literary talents. Keep up the sterling work. Looking forward to Conor.
I think the answer to many of these questions is 20 rep squatting. If you can progress on these, you are doing it right. I got into ever more volume and frequency and got progress, but I don’t think it translated too well into a better body. I recently thought about it all and decided on the 20 rep squat as an objective measure. It is the ultimate as far as I know. I have just read for first time the book Super Squats and there it is recommended to do 6 weeks of a routine based around the 20 rep squat, 6 weeks of a 5x5, back to the 20 rappers.
I imagine high rep deads are rock hard, but it seems more risky. So I am going to say if you want some sort of certainty, the 20 rep squat is as good as it gets. Of course debatable, but of all the possibilities in the gym, the 20 rep squat stands out as some sort of peak
20 rep squats are the answer...but what was the question? 😂
Don't overfocus on the details! Take the answer and run with it! I think the topic of masculinity is somewhat like "what is human nature?" The answer will vary as society varies, likely the key element will be the economic foundation, and the dominant definition will be constructed by the ruling class of the moment to suit their requirements.
@@stevepace-first8617 but I don't think 20 rep squats is the answer to anything helpful? Maybe if the question is "what is a dumb and next to pointless thing to do in the gym to gain leg size or strength" the answer might be 20 rep squats - but other than that, I have no idea what you're referring to..
No disrespect, but ahat you mentioned regarding masculinity is a given, but also redundant to the context of the conversation we were framing. It's analogous to chipping in a comment saying "btw, did you know that water is wet" - it doesn't add anything to what we were debating because of course it's contextual
@@carvedouttastoneI thought it was good that you stood your ground with Jamie, even though I tend to agree with many of his points. You asked a q about overtraining and also running was mentioned. My thought is that the 20 rep squat answers the q, if that is progressing, it indicates you are on the right side of overtraining. Also your endurance will be enhanced, it has a global effect on your physicality, not only external but internal.
I think that you were both getting at some important underpinnings of the lifting project, and I do tend to think it is very much influenced by the conservative perspective, rugged individualism, aspiration, as opposed to the communist recognition of the dead end of the proletarian condition, the way out being unity rather than an individual pursuit of self perfection. Hopefully a little more relevant. Anyway, I for one enjoyed seeing you two argue your perspectives, and can see the pair of you have some brain cells.
Couldn't keep away, huh?