So is this a potential Catch-22? Applying through my grandfather creates a Minor issue. However, if I apply through the courts in Italy through my grandmother as a 1948 Case, could the judge deny the 1948 Case application because the judge would rule I should go through my grandfather’s line because the Minor rule does not apply in his court?
What if you booked your consulate appointments before this memo was issued? Could the consulate honor your application based on the rules at the time you applied and booked your appointments? Thank you
It's not about the appointment date. It applies to all applications that have not yet received a final decision. It's worth going to the appointment just in case they do something quirky, but it will most likely be rejected. If so, get the rejection in writing so that you can potentially appeal or launch a court case if possible.
Recommendation “how to file with court in town of ancestors birth” ? Do we need an attorney Or can we self file ? I’m waiting now for my consultate to approve (already filed 2023)
Please do a video on the entire process and regulations or rules of 1983. I know you've done a video in the past about it. But talk about the process of applying at a consulate or in a community or do you need an attorney what if the parents are deceased and the child wants to get citizenship it's not it laid out clearly on the consulate site. Do you need to record the marriage through the consulate first and then apply do you do it all at once.
This situation shows the importance of really understanding the law and/or having legal counsel. Also, is there anything in the new ruling or any other interpretation that affects Italian citizenship if an ancestor had Italian biological parents but was later adopted?
I heard that if you live in Italy under a proper visa you could file the case based on where you live in Italy. Filing in the ancestor’s home region is necessary only if you live outside Italy. Is this correct?
My grandfather, (mothers father) was born in Vallelunga, in 1906. I have his birth certificate my mother's( USA 1943 ) and of course mine (USA 1968) does this help prove a claim?
Sounds like court petitions for maternal line ancestors who were naturalized automatically through marriage ( between 1912 - 1922 ), regardless of whether the next ancestor was yet born, makes a good 1948 case for citizenship by descent. Is this a correct path?
This is difficult to answer. If you are ready to go to the consulate right now, then you likely don't need the help of a lawyer. Do you have all of your documents and application ready to file? If not, it could take a while just to get the needed documents. Once your application is filed the time can vary widely depending on the consulate. And then there is the challenge of actually getting an appointment. Some people have been trying for 1-2 years or more to get an appointment. It's really difficult to get any kind of timeframe without asking people that processed similar applications through the same consulate that you will be using.
From what I'm hearing, the Departmentsl of the Exterior is not yet engaging this new policy and that the Circolare is only a recommendation from the Departmentof the Interior. Are you 100% sure that this applies to the Department of the Exterior and the Consulate, AND that it is a MANDATE?
It’s not a mandate but recommendations from the Ministry of the Interior, however, it appears the consulates will allow implement it as will the majority of Italian municipalities . The Consulates are waiting for guidelines from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs on how to implement it.
You likely will not be able to do this yourself. You would need to have a lawyer representing you, so the lawyer fees are the biggest expense. Lawyer fees can vary widely, but you should expect to pay between $5k-$10k for a case like this.
$4000-$6500 I’ve been quoted and I’m a ‘minor case’. I chose this route since it has to be through the court now and I can’t spend 3-6 months in Italy right now to do it myself. Was born in 1986 and mother naturalized in 1987. They said it’s fine it just has to be in the court of where my mother was from which was Palermo Sicily . Only down fall is it takes 10-18 months to receive the passport etc I was told
So I understand where this is going but what if my grandfather was naturalized a year before my father was born (as a second child), the first being before he was naturalized. Does that exclude me from obtaining citizenship through decent or might the courts consider this?
No your father never had a path to citizenship. The minor ruling would however impact his sibling’s path to citizenship, since they were most likely a minor when their parent naturalized.
What if the mother voluntarily naturalized (post 1922) when her child was a minor but her dual US-Italian citizen husband(born in the US to Italian parents) did not naturalize?
Im in the same situation and have cousins who were as well. I was told that if doing it at a court ( Rome or Palermo in my case) = it doesn’t negatively affect me. It just leaves me only one way to apply which is at a court in Palermo due to my parents came from Palermo. I was born in 1986 in the USA and my mother naturalized in 1987 and I’ve been told by 3 Italian immigration attorneys that I will be fine, just have to wait 10-18 months to receive my passport etc. 3 of my cousins were in the same situation and just got approved this week in Italy
I am still confused. If someone can tell me yes o no to the following: my husband's parents were naturalized Canadians by their parents when they were 9 and 12 yrs old. They got married in the 70's and had 2 children that were born Canadians. Later on my in laws got back their Italian Citizenship when my husband was 20. Can this give a chance to my husband to fight it in court? Thanks!
Was it before 1975 that they got their italian citizenship back? If it was, your husband could be eligible but dont take my word for it...but it sounds like they got their italian citizenships back between 1992-97 when they were offering it back to people for a while, which would mean your husband was already over age of 18 and thus, not eligible.
@@Behemoth66i think OP is right. There is a major anti immigrant vibe in the world right now. Italy elected a far right anti immigration government, so expect the policies to follow
@ItalianCitizenshipAssistance I assume that I am safe but just to ask, for someone who recently obtained citizenship by descent via a consulate where an ancestor's child was a minor when the parent naturalized as a US citizen, can the Italian government change their mind and now take that citizenship away? Or once we have the citizenship, are we safe and they can't take it back? Using Austria as an example, an Austrian lawyer told me that they can change their mind within 3 years of granting Austrian citizenship in certain circumstances. So hopefully this is not the case for Italy.
It only affects applications that have not yet been approved. There is no mechanism to change the application decision or revoke citizenship at this point. I guess it's possible that a new law could be introduced in the future, but I think that is highly unlikely.
My grandparents lived in Italy. What I find weird is that people who have a connection to the country with immediate family members have more difficulty to obtain citizenship where that someone of a grandparent tracing back decades can get their citizenship due to this odd law. Someone with ancestry who at the time prior to wars never had to naturalize get it easier. Shouldn't it be the other way around? Twisted rules about 1975 ...
You guys are awesome. Marco is the very best attorney in his space. I highly recommend him!-Steven
Thank you Marco and Rafael for the update!
So is this a potential Catch-22? Applying through my grandfather creates a Minor issue. However, if I apply through the courts in Italy through my grandmother as a 1948 Case, could the judge deny the 1948 Case application because the judge would rule I should go through my grandfather’s line because the Minor rule does not apply in his court?
In your experience, how friendly are the courts in Palermo?
What if you booked your consulate appointments before this memo was issued? Could the consulate honor your application based on the rules at the time you applied and booked your appointments? Thank you
Doesn't matter. We're screwed.
It's not about the appointment date. It applies to all applications that have not yet received a final decision. It's worth going to the appointment just in case they do something quirky, but it will most likely be rejected. If so, get the rejection in writing so that you can potentially appeal or launch a court case if possible.
Great explanation, thank you!
Recommendation “how to file with court in town of ancestors birth” ? Do we need an attorney
Or can we self file ?
I’m waiting now for my consultate to approve (already filed 2023)
Please do a video on the entire process and regulations or rules of 1983. I know you've done a video in the past about it. But talk about the process of applying at a consulate or in a community or do you need an attorney what if the parents are deceased and the child wants to get citizenship it's not it laid out clearly on the consulate site. Do you need to record the marriage through the consulate first and then apply do you do it all at once.
This situation shows the importance of really understanding the law and/or having legal counsel.
Also, is there anything in the new ruling or any other interpretation that affects Italian citizenship if an ancestor had Italian biological parents but was later adopted?
Marco, can you make a video about children born out of wedlock?
I heard that if you live in Italy under a proper visa you could file the case based on where you live in Italy. Filing in the ancestor’s home region is necessary only if you live outside Italy. Is this correct?
My grandfather, (mothers father) was born in Vallelunga, in 1906. I have his birth certificate my mother's( USA 1943 ) and of course mine (USA 1968) does this help prove a claim?
Thank you!
Sounds like court petitions for maternal line ancestors who were naturalized automatically through marriage ( between 1912 - 1922 ), regardless of whether the next ancestor was yet born, makes a good 1948 case for citizenship by descent. Is this a correct path?
If a person is ready to go to the consulate right now how long is it generally to get recognized if you contact ICA tomorrow?
This is difficult to answer. If you are ready to go to the consulate right now, then you likely don't need the help of a lawyer. Do you have all of your documents and application ready to file? If not, it could take a while just to get the needed documents. Once your application is filed the time can vary widely depending on the consulate. And then there is the challenge of actually getting an appointment. Some people have been trying for 1-2 years or more to get an appointment. It's really difficult to get any kind of timeframe without asking people that processed similar applications through the same consulate that you will be using.
From what I'm hearing, the Departmentsl of the Exterior is not yet engaging this new policy and that the Circolare is only a recommendation from the Departmentof the Interior. Are you 100% sure that this applies to the Department of the Exterior and the Consulate, AND that it is a MANDATE?
It's a mandate for the consulates and the comune offices. It is not a mandate for the courts.
The circular affects all administrative JS applications meaning any non courts applications
It’s not a mandate but recommendations from the Ministry of the Interior, however, it appears the consulates will allow implement it as will the majority of Italian municipalities . The Consulates are waiting for guidelines from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs on how to implement it.
I'm in Canada. My father became a Canadian Citizen when I was 10. It was $400 to apply through the Consulate. How much is it through the courts?
You likely will not be able to do this yourself. You would need to have a lawyer representing you, so the lawyer fees are the biggest expense. Lawyer fees can vary widely, but you should expect to pay between $5k-$10k for a case like this.
@@pumuckl0 and Marco is an Italian Citizenship attorney.
$4000-$6500 I’ve been quoted and I’m a ‘minor case’. I chose this route since it has to be through the court now and I can’t spend 3-6 months in Italy right now to do it myself. Was born in 1986 and mother naturalized in 1987. They said it’s fine it just has to be in the court of where my mother was from which was Palermo Sicily . Only down fall is it takes 10-18 months to receive the passport etc I was told
Please talk about female ancestors who married an Italian.
So I understand where this is going but what if my grandfather was naturalized a year before my father was born (as a second child), the first being before he was naturalized. Does that exclude me from obtaining citizenship through decent or might the courts consider this?
No your father never had a path to citizenship. The minor ruling would however impact his sibling’s path to citizenship, since they were most likely a minor when their parent naturalized.
@@nicoleparisi-mcknight9175 Not what I wanted to hear but thanks for your response.
What if the mother voluntarily naturalized (post 1922) when her child was a minor but her dual US-Italian citizen husband(born in the US to Italian parents) did not naturalize?
Im in the same situation and have cousins who were as well. I was told that if doing it at a court ( Rome or Palermo in my case) = it doesn’t negatively affect me. It just leaves me only one way to apply which is at a court in Palermo due to my parents came from Palermo. I was born in 1986 in the USA and my mother naturalized in 1987 and I’ve been told by 3 Italian immigration attorneys that I will be fine, just have to wait 10-18 months to receive my passport etc. 3 of my cousins were in the same situation and just got approved this week in Italy
Since the minor issue I believe that a lot of people are not aware that they might fall into the pre 83.
I am still confused. If someone can tell me yes o no to the following: my husband's parents were naturalized Canadians by their parents when they were 9 and 12 yrs old. They got married in the 70's and had 2 children that were born Canadians. Later on my in laws got back their Italian Citizenship when my husband was 20. Can this give a chance to my husband to fight it in court? Thanks!
Was it before 1975 that they got their italian citizenship back? If it was, your husband could be eligible but dont take my word for it...but it sounds like they got their italian citizenships back between 1992-97 when they were offering it back to people for a while, which would mean your husband was already over age of 18 and thus, not eligible.
My grandparents never became USA citizens. In fact my grandfather had to register as an enemy alien during WWII.
What about pre 1983 marriage
Women who married an Italian citizen husband before April 1983 are eligible for derivative citizenship .
I believe this whole citizenship business will be out of business soon!
As long as the US, Canada and UK continue their downward spirals there will always be a demand to leave those places.
That is very ignorant to say. If anything, it will only grow more
@@Behemoth66 It's not very ignorant it's geting more apparent as time goes by. pumuckl0 does have a point.
@@Behemoth66i think OP is right. There is a major anti immigrant vibe in the world right now. Italy elected a far right anti immigration government, so expect the policies to follow
@ItalianCitizenshipAssistance I assume that I am safe but just to ask, for someone who recently obtained citizenship by descent via a consulate where an ancestor's child was a minor when the parent naturalized as a US citizen, can the Italian government change their mind and now take that citizenship away? Or once we have the citizenship, are we safe and they can't take it back? Using Austria as an example, an Austrian lawyer told me that they can change their mind within 3 years of granting Austrian citizenship in certain circumstances. So hopefully this is not the case for Italy.
It only affects applications that have not yet been approved. There is no mechanism to change the application decision or revoke citizenship at this point. I guess it's possible that a new law could be introduced in the future, but I think that is highly unlikely.
My grandparents lived in Italy. What I find weird is that people who have a connection to the country with immediate family members have more difficulty to obtain citizenship where that someone of a grandparent tracing back decades can get their citizenship due to this odd law. Someone with ancestry who at the time prior to wars never had to naturalize get it easier. Shouldn't it be the other way around? Twisted rules about 1975 ...