The boxing gloves, caestus, were spiked in roman culture (same guys that had combat sports with swords, way to dangerous for sane people). In greek matches they most likely didn't use metal plates, but "only" leather stripes that left the fingers free, much like modern bandages. Olympic fighting matches in ancient greece were divided in three types of styles, boxing, wrestling and pankration. Pankration was a combination of boxing and wrestling with only very few rules, like no eye gouging (which on occasion made some people not compete because they couldn't use the techniques they learned in war). Boxing matches could go on until the sun or the opponent went down, if the sun went down, the match ended in a draw. You could win a match in wrestling even if you died, if the opponent tapped out first and there are stories about guys that won in such a fashion. Most priced were the winners that competed and won in all three styles. In this tradition MMA isn't particular new and the complain about not being allowed to blind people isn't either. The information is mostly drawn from Michael Poliakoff: Combat Sports in the Ancient World. Yale University Press, New Haven. 1987.
Karate as a “style” wasn’t even named karate and divided into sub groups (Goju Ryu, Shito Ryu, Wado Ryu, and Shotokan ) until 1938 when Jigaro Kano was invited to observe an exhibition of the Okinawan form of martial arts and then they renamed what was effectively called in okinawan “Chinese Hand” to a more “appropriate “ Japanese word karate (empty hand) and the “ styles” being named for the three best practitioners home provinces or villages. Up to that point it was more like mma or jeet kune do in that they took what worked and left what didn’t from various other martial arts to create an effective self defense system. Once they adopted these changes and then added the Japanese uniform and ranking system of Kano’s Judo in an attempt to “modernize” it then became a “Traditional “ martial art. Which is very weird because this same thing is what happened to Boxing with the introduction of the Queensbury Rules. I think the reality of the question more has to do with the clothing and rituals involved than application to be frank.
Before the Queensbury rules, they had the Broughton rules, created by John Broughton, after he killed someone in the ring. Plus, in the early days, boxing gyms also taught fencing and staff fighting, and matches included all 3. (There's a guy named Chris Price on Quora, he writes about old British pugilism.)
Couldn't agree more! Case in point: Myiagi was adamantly against belts, ranking system of any sorts, and the only reason Goju-ryu was even defined as "hard-soft" was because Myiagi needed to name this style. I don't think they even wore Gi's back then.
Muay Thai is an incredibly old martial art. It is also very traditional. It is however still subject to trends. Rules change a bit from year to year. Therefore matches look different now compared to how they looked in the early 2000s. All those different techniques are however present in the ancient (Boran) forms of Muay Thai. Even as a sport there’s a lot of traditional and superstitious practices. Like the Wai Khru and the wearing of Pra Jiad around the arms and waist. There seems to be some disinformation around this in Europe and the USA.
I would consider Muay Thai a sport since the introduction of boxing gloves started in 1920's. Thai Boxing federation only began in the mid 50's. Muay Boran basically mean "Ancient connection" and most of the styles branch out from northeastern Thailand. As for the Wai Kru, Wai kru isn't related to Buddhism but more towards Hinduism because it is based off the Ramayana and the Thai's are Theravada buddhist as opposed to their neighboring country like Cambodia that was once Hinduism/Mahayana buddhism but shifted to create Tantric Buddhist Yogāvacara. I know that Wai Kru is taught differently from other boxing schools.
@@Katcom111 You are correct. The point i was making is just that there is a lot of emphasis on very traditional practices. For instance, in many gyms the female nak muay are still not allowed to touch the ring or even climb over the ropes. The females instead train outside of the ring. The sak yant tattoos are also a traditional thing, same with the wearing of a mongkon. The music, pliglon muay thai is also something extremely traditional that has no real functional value. So what i'm proposing is this, it cannot be categorized as a sport or something purely traditional. Muay Thai is what it is, it is the Thai Fist, a martial art and a combat sport. If you ask a Thai if it is "only" a sport, they'll look at you like you are insane. The rule system as i mentioned is subject to different trends. Right now a lot of the combat sport money is coming from China and the USA so therefore the techniques that are allowed are more catered to an international audience. If you look back to the 1990s sweeps were not allowed, and elbows, knees and kicks targeting the spine were considered beautiful techniques. The training and nak muay life, in itself is also still in many ways very traditional. 6 year olds fighting for money is not considered normal in sports, not even in Thailand. But for a 6 year old to become a nak muay and support the family by fighting is still considered an honor for the family. Something that i would say separates muay thai even more is that it is mostly passed along as a living document and oral tradition. From master to student. In comparison with for instance Karate this is wildly different. So another common misconception i see is that muay thai has only one roundhouse kick. That's not true. If you learn Thai, and train in Thailand you'll soon see that they actually have a lot of different names for the variations of the roundhouse kick. It's just not taught like that. They teach application more than anything. Instead of learning what one technique is called and what it looks like and how it is performed they just show the application. Very interesting stuff. I've been obsessed with it since the 90s when i switched from Kyokushin to Muay Thai and also boxing.
The interesting thing about Taekwon-Do is that, during General Choi's lifetime, it was constantly breaking up significantly with tradition; Korean was not mandatory outside of Korea (I for one learned it entirely in French and learned my first Korean word only years after I became a black belt); it became the language of referees only by the 80's (Choi wanted it to be English but Korean was the only one universally accepted, not just because it was the birthplace country of the art, but also because it was spoken by both Communist North Korea and Capitalist South Korea... although we know both have diverged significantly from one another today...) Choi deliberately distanced the art from it's source culture, moving the center of authority and decision of Taekwon-Do outside of Korea to Canada and later to Austria. (Choi later wrote that ''Taekwon-Do may still be called Korean only because of the birthplace of it's founder;'' a statement to outrage any traditionalist outright.) The uniform was redesigned in the mid sixties (black piping) then again in the seventies (centerclosed),the eighties (grey uniforms for black belts), the nineties (shoulder badges); Teaching methods changed not only with culture but with what teaching studies brought up (i.e. reinforcement teaching replaced punishing teaching); The training regimen changed with research in kinesiology, physiology and testing ( i.e. proprioceptive stretching was introduced in the early '80s); Principles of power changed (i.e. the sinewave movement replacing linear hips-bodyweight transfer); Technique execution changed (i.e. the chambering of the side kick from knee to waist); Techniques were added or emphasized differently(i.e. the twisting kick, downward kick, jumping punch and backward kicking became staples in tournaments and very basic joint locking and throwing added to it's official self-defense curriculum); Sport rules changed (i.e. patterns are now performed with 2 competitors at the same time and the better of the two designated by a show of hand, instead of one by one with points); Testing criterias were expanded from the original requirements (i.e. performance breaking added to power breaking tests); Even the patterns changed (i.e. in my lifetime, the execution of the finger thrust changed 5 times in Do-San pattern), up to an including discarding one to introduce a completely new one to better reflect all those changes Taekwon-Do had gone through (i.e.Choi himself replaced the Ko-Dang pattern with the Ju-Che pattern). The traditionalist-minded were either annoyed or outright offended by these breaks with ''what was'' and, because Choi was the headmaster, they either complied grumpily or seceeded to ''preserve the tradition.'' Now that he is dead, his art has split in numerous styles (much like what happened with Karate-Do) and the traditionalist mindset has settled in all the more firmly as everyone claims to be the ''true follower of the master,'' or the ''preserved original way since the beginning.'' So based on your definition, it could be said that, like Muay Thai, Taekwon-Do was a modern art but with a traditional base but now has turned into a full-fledged traditional art with the passing of it's central figure who had worked to make it modern.
This video was needed. I actually took hints from you Ramsey in previous vids. You again and again point out how important POSITION is in relation to one´s opponent. This is how even badly mangled and sportified boxing remains so relevant. On the other to some styles perfected FORM became paramount, position or even presence of opponent being of second importance. Thank you.
Well done. As a sport fencing instructor, we inevitably get questions regarding modern sport fencing versus classical or historical fencing. This concisely describes the issue in our sports as well. Thanks.
@Abundance Rey kano combined all the older samurai jiu jitsu styles he could find into Judo during the Meiji restoration (most notably kito ryu and tenjin shin ryu) and took out the atemi waza part wich is striking. bjj then came from judo in the 1920s or smth
Abundance Rey No Brazilian jujitsu came from judo. Japanese jujitsu was used by the samurai, and refers to a group of largely unarmed fighting methods.
I agree to an degree, while "Traditional martial arts" keep and hold tradition, many of such traditions are just a cultural thing and done outside of martial arts and the rest is just modern additions, the belt system started in Judo before then it didn't really exist and there was no such thing as uniforms back then (except maybe for military) the gi was just clothing. As for modern combat sports it has tradition in it from fighters walking on stage to the announcement of the winner, you even can equate touching gloves to bowing. BJJ is a traditional martial art even with your definition of it. Traditional martial arts do adapt and change over time, some did it to get more students and to keep it from dieing out, (added a sport, took away some techniques and training exercises) in turn watered it down and boosted it's popularity in some ways. Lots of misconceptions and false information, it doesn't help that some people duplicate the way the art is taught to them and don't understand how it works themselves.
Here is something to think about. In Japan, anything with the suffix “do” on the end is considered modern. Judo, Aikido, Kendo,ETC. Anything with Hutus on the in is the older traditional one. Jujutsu, Kenjutsu, etc. What do you think about this?
Not exactly as you said. The "do" means "way" and "jutsu" if basicly the suffix they add to most martial arts. Although you are not completely incorrect, the "do" is present in the modern versions, but it has to do more with the change in philosophy and practical application of those arts. For example. Kendo is the sport version of Kenjutsu. They basicly took Kenjutsu and made it a sport called Kendo, that is a very very very diluted version of the original art. Iaido (which is the art I practice) is a modern version of Iaijutsu, what changed in this one is the philosophy. While in Iaijutsu the main goal was the martial application, for self-defense and to kill on the spot, Iaido on the other hand is about self-growth and daily improvement not only as a martial artist but as a human being, hence the change from the "jutsu" to "do". So in conclusion, yes what you said is somewhat right but it's more than that.
To me there are martial arts, combat sports and self defense systems... they are all interconected, it just depends on what you want to focus on, what you prefer to do. There are traditional martial arts that have also a combat sport side.. there are combat sports with a long tradition and Self Defense systems use martial arts and combat sports techniques. So at the end of the day, just do what you prefer. or do them ALL.
@@xenomethean9304 Yes, and just because you prefer MMA, isn't going to kill you if may like take some Kendo Lessons just for the fun of it, or if you are a Mantis Kung Fu practitioner to take some Kickboxing classes, etc.
The “newness” of these arts is really just in the name, and the system. But generally like you said they try to adapt ancient techniques and practices. I teach both taekwondo and hapkido, and hapkido is the more “traditional” art, even though it’s technically younger. In the last 20 years Taekwondo has gone heavily into the sporty side with the sparring style and kicking demos. Nice video, thanks for addressing this
I recently watched your material on whether it is a moral duty to react when we witness an attack. There you quoted the words of one uncle, "Great strength is just as great a responsibility", a situation where he was shot by Parker 's refuse to act, however you made a critical understatement here, ignoring the second meaning of the quote. In one episode, Keene Marlow and his wife Maria were coming from dinner, witnessing a gang war. Keene acted recklessly, activated his powers to stop them, he did, but Maria was caught in the crossfire and was killed. Keene had become the "Destroyer" alright, the destroyer of lives. He gave his costume and ring to Ben and also his key to the doomsday device, so that he would never be tempted again to use his powers. It was at that moment they both learned, with great power, comes great responsibility, both in a situation of no acting and in a situation where we use our strength unreasonably.
So this is kind of why I don't like term "traditional". It implies caring for the tradition over the effectiveness of the style, which ironically in most cases insults the wishes of the founders. The other day I was watching the second season of Baki, and some character, a kung fu practitioner says the following to a boxer: "boxing is not old enough." I laughed for five minutes.
I was training under a teacher who teaches Sanda but with a heavy traditional Shaolin side to it, you had to do lots of forms, Tai Chi and Chi Gong along the way. I asked you the relevance of forms to combat training and you shone a light on it which opened my eyes. Now I train in Muay Thai and BJJ in a combat sports gym and it feels progressive. Thanks for your immensely thoughtful approach here, it has been very helpful 👍👊🙏
This is an interesting topic for me, relating to my tai chi chuan practice. We don't have specific uniforms in class. We don't really bow in or say special words in Chinese or anything like that. My coach is called coach. Tai chi may be sort of in the middle in terms of how old it is. But it still is evolving. I practice modern Yang style. I've visited schools that do what is called classical Yang style. The body mechanics are different. The forms also differ. In fact, some of the forms we practice are incredibly young. If you look at some older tai chi books by older masters, you can compare the differences. I think tai chi chuan can be kind of looked at as an amalgamation of both being "traditional" and "modern" (if you practice it that way. There's multiple styles and some places will still teach the classical form of the art. And of course if all you do is Yang 24 in the park with a group, that's pretty traditional, even though 24 is one of the younger forms. Competitions will have their own set of ritual and uniforms. We still dress up for those. And while performing forms is one aspect of it, push hands and sparring/fighting are also present in some competitions as well. It's an interesting distinction and I haven't really considered it before. It seems like an intuitive concept on the face of it. But there's more to it.
I didn't even know TKD is considered traditional and I did that for round about ten years ^^'! We even learned it was started as a more military based martial art ^^
LunaBianca1805 Yes, from my understanding General Choi (1955) is credited with the founder of Tae Kwon Do (Book, the State Of The Art Of Tae Kwon Do, Master Sung Chul Wang, Master Jun Chul Whang and Brandon Saltz) From what I read, it’s roots go back to Tae Kyon which consisted of kicks, hand strikes, throws and joint locks and this art goes back to 935 AD. However, this could easily be apply to Hapkido also, but at the same time, we all know sometimes history and or narratives tend to change over time.
I like your comments on these topics! You are very informed, unbiased, understanding and have minimal to no misperception about the various martial arts including traditional martial arts!
Keeping a tradition alive can (and often does) coexist with training to become actually proficient in full contact fighting, what you said about Muay Thai is true for a number of other arts like Wushu, some types of Karate and even grappling focused styles (to some extent). Wearing a certain uniform at the gym, saluting in a certain way or learning some specific forms doesn't mean that's all you're gonna train for (or, better said, a good coach will give you the option and guidance to evolve beyond this basic stuff if you want to). Training uniforms are actually quite practical, most of them being well designed to offer both a wide range of motion and reasonable protection from scratches and other such minor training mishaps. Forms are most useful in training discipline and basic kinesthetics to newbies, but also as an extended warm-up routine for higher level practitioners as well. Most competitive fighters I know are still practicing forms regularly in their training routines for this exact purpose, 10 minutes of kata or taolu will warm up your joints and muscles a lot better than just stretching or jogging. In the same way a few minutes of tai chi will help you relax after an intensive training session, preventing muscle soreness and tendinitis (Japanese arts also have a dynamic relaxation routine, but I forgot how it's called).
Muay Thai is only traditional when it comes to rites outside the technical aspects. Technically MT is quite modern and focused on efficiency, different than those kinds of traditional martial arts that are not competitive.
@@aluisiofsjr To be honest I never took a martial art seriously if it doesn't have a competitive element/option and that should be realistic (full force/resistance), not just demonstrative or aesthetic. Martial means combative (or military), if it can't train effective fighting techniques it's not really a martial art i.m.o. What people came to regard as traditional martial arts often include silly things that were never meant to be realistic or practical. Also bad coaches of actual fighting arts often compromise for the sake of money, turning what should be a useful set of skills into some kind of stupid ballet with no real benefits for the practitioners.
Vladimir Efimov , those self defense martial arts are often more dangerous than efficient/realistic. They give a false confidence that you can defend yourself against knifes and multiple attackers. That is why I prefer really competitive modern martial arts that are the basis of MMA. It is undoubtedly that you are learning to defending yourself.
That's a good summary of the differences between TMA and modern ones. I'd add that TMA focus way less on competitive fighting which is why TMA fighters are usually not as good when it comes to actual fighting, I believe TMA were not designed for hands-to-hands fighting, but rather for self-defense. The mindset is also quite different. People don't seem to realize this, but traditional Karate goal has never been actual consensual fighting/street fight, but rather self-defense. That's more or less what you discussed with Jesse in one of your past videos. I even believe that once you understand the real application of kata, it's kind of similar to Krav-Maga (with a more hardcore contionning). The whole combative aspect of it was "made up" and "added" to it once it got imported to Japan, this combative aspect is not "traditional" which is also why karate fighting is so different from their kata techniques. Thanks for the video!
Good thing you explained this cause that clears many of the aspect of those fighting stiles. Anyway so many theories and polemics but the best conclusion is at the end: GO THERE AND TRAIN! ;)
You’ve covered the topic really well throughout your videos in general. That’s a great piece right there! Well you sometimes even called traditional martial arts and combat sports so it’s pretty self explanatory but that was a video definitely worth waiting for!
Hello coach! Hope you’re having a great day! This time a short question: do you think that applying certain moves from different martial arts to others with making people aware of them could potentially be a next big thing for combat sports? I know it happens already but as for teaching the beginners and applying more from other martial arts.
Modern Martial Arts are like liquids, Traditional Martial Arts are like solids. One can evolve, one cannot. If a system (of anything) will not follow the flow of time, it will never win out.
Sorry Ramsey, but I can't agree on your last point. You said Muay Thai is a modern combat sport because they change how they fight, but the fighting also changes in Taekondwo (and maybe other traditional martial arts too). Check a video of Taekwondo fighting from the 90s and from the last Olympics in Japan, and you will notice that they fight very differently now. Back then Taekwondo was more energetic, looking for knockdowns, while now it is about preserving energy and getting more points with weak, but faster kicks. Not saying the latter sounds really better, but they change their style to be more efficient at winning under the rules, exactly what you said about Muay Thai. Still, very nice video mate! EDIT: Looking forward to new winning strategies including to get knocked out in Olympic Karate!
I have given a thought also about it. What I think the main difference is that traditional systems doesn’t evolve their set of techniques keeping them as they were taught while the non traditional evolve their techniques and implement also techniques from other systems that can feet their fighting style in their curriculum
Very good explanation, Coach! Anyway, I believe the term should/could be changed to "traditionalist martial arts". "Traditional" usually gives that understanding of "something that's been happening/been done for a long time".
Hey coach... A question here. How do use more powerful blows when sparring light? If I wanna still do the motion. Jumping attacks, kicks. And even falling steps and similar things on sparring. I just don't use them or how do I go about it? I really need to go light because I'm a rather inexperienced heavyweight and my sparring partners tend to be much smaller. I don't want to injure them by accident...
Not the coach, but I'd recommend practicing the movements in slow motion to build that finer degree of muscle control and recognise how the movement feels from start to finish. While standing at a heavy bag, you could also try to see how hard or light your hits connect when you pull back on your movement at the last moment. As you get the feel for it, you adjust your input so that you can eventually switch between, say, a full-power roundhouse and barely touching the skin of the bag without sacrificing too much travel speed to the target. It will actually be easier to throw a full-strength kick than a super slow one, because your muscles in a normal kick can exert all their force at once and your balance is generally easier to maintain. And always remember, if you have a partner to test the results on, be sure to tell them that you're trying a few things out.
This is a question I've though about asking you myself for some time but never got around to. Looking forward to hearing what you have to say about this.
Before I even watch the video, I will note that my school of karate, Matsubayashi-ryu, was formed in 1947, so I anticipate agreement here. I will add, however, that the founder, Nagamine Shoshin, distilled his teachings from others such as Kyan Chotoku and Motobu Choki, preeminent sources on the subject of Okinawan martial arts. Karate itself has a complex history of cultural interchange and development reaching back to China evidenced by its original name: Tode (Chinese hand), often shortened to Te. Personally, the difference between traditional and modern has more to do with Japanese influence. Somewhere between China and Japan lies the former Ryukyuan Kingdom; one should envision this geography akin to a spectrum of traditional versus modern.
Boxing changes are interesting since so many of them were made for the interest of the public. From the Olympic boxing of the Ancient Greeks to honor Zeus to modern fights the idea of fist fighting for an audience is the great connector. The rules of engagement tell us less about the fighters in the ring and more about the public they are playing for. For instance, by the rules of the ancients, I'd say Zeus is impatient, respect toughness, and is quite used to violence at it's most brutal. Makes sense, since he is both a king and a warrior.
Ramsey Dewey, I'm not sure of your opinion of Joe Rogan but I feel that you and Joe Rogan would have an awesome, informative discussion on his podcast.
You forgot to mention the "Do" (道) asociated to traditional martial arts, they often promote the way of virtue, respect, effort, mental strength, calm, self improvement, etcetc, things meant for life inside and outside of the dojang/dojo. Many modern combat sports don't include these things as part of their essence, sure you gotta be mentally strong and give your 120% in any combat discipline, but in most of them as long as you win nothing else matters. I can speak for Taekwondo which is what I know, and there lies the main difference between the plain olympic sport and the martial art as a whole. You see many people who probably aren't as good at the sport as others who only cultivate that part, but are way better martial artists and persons than many gifted sportsmen. Your martial artist's quality encompasses way more things than your proficency in the art itself, it includes who you are as a person
One thing I like about martial arts like Taijiquan is that there is no traditional uniforms to wear in class. No special bowing or rituals. Just show up to the place (might be a park or indoors) and practice. Very straightforward.
hi remsey, thanks for all Your videos my name is johnny cohen 21 years old i live in israel and i'm Training in (good) Krav Maga on the way to becoming a coach, my question is since my height is only 165 cm how am I supposed to maintain the status of a coach with people who are much taller and bigger than me, should I spar with them,I would be happy if you give me more tips on this matter,I just wanted to say that I really appreciate your point of view on coaching and martial arts, thanks again
I have a suggestion if you're still interested in Fantastic Fictional Fights. There's a popular animation on RUclips you should check out. While it's obviously flashy and stylized, there are some interesting real world elements included in the fight scene. Thought you'd be interested -- ruclips.net/video/vJGvSbHmeco/видео.html
Even to this day I struggle to explain to people certain defensive techniques for self defence. I’m not a self defence coach but when faced against combat sports in application and street life threatening situations I can clearly put them out of their misery sometimes!
Sir, I have been reading Jack Demsy's book as recommended by you. But I have a confusion regarding the shoulder whirl straight punches from the normal stance. I was wondering if these punches required the hip rotation or not( as he ( Jack Demsey) makes no mention of it in the text and emphasises only that " the shoulder, back and legs aid in this punch"). If they do, is there a way to actually jab and step simultaneously.
The first ten chapters of the book are basically about jabbing and stepping simultaneously. Shoulder rotation is connected to hip mobility. When you pull your non punching shoulder back, it propels your punching shoulder forward as well as the hip on the side of the punching arm.
My karate traditions... Bowing: yes, one must respect all life. The first precept noted by Nagamine Shoshin is "I am human and so is he." An important life lesson that must be present to observe violence in its proper context. Words: I don't require my students to learn Japanese, but I use it A LOT during class. Techniques, stances, counting, equipment, etc. My degree is in linguistics, and I will advocate for language exposure all day, every day. Language is part of culture is part of perspective. Uniforms: students are free to train in shorts and T-shirts (but we ask that they be school branded because PR is a thing). I prefer to train in karategi when in public, but I literally practice in my underwear sometimes while at home. Float your own boat imo. Lineage: Knowledge is paramount, but honoring those who came before is laudable in respect of the source of that knowledge. The term "sensei" can be literally translated as "one who came before". Forms/kata: Forms are the kinetic version of a manual. As Matt Easton would prove, manuals themselves can illuminate our martial pursuits. I know you've met virtually with Jesse Enkamp. I also would highly recommend checking out Iain Abernethy and his PracticalBunkai channel. You neglect the important tradition of kumite, partner exercise. We have structured forms and free sparring. It is vital, though I avoid the competitive aspect of tournaments and the like. If you think we don't evolve and improve upon our practice of what is commonly known as karate, then you are exhibiting the modern YouTubian "mess" of discarding anything with structure. That's where I see the biggest difference in modern combat sports versus "traditional" schools: formalized structure. Coaching is often on an individual or small class basis, allowing one to cater training to the needs of students. I think that's the best way to improve. Nothing wrong with that, but one good coach can only do so much, whether it's providing different perspectives or simply enough time in the day. Formalized teaching allows for large classes where students can interact with a multitude of different partners with greater variety of approaches; where the kata, the manuals, teach the student and we merely guide students upon the path toward understanding them. With formalized structure, students can practice on their own and classes become more about guidance than rote instruction. Yet partner work cannot be neglected, so I reiterate that kumite should not be left out of the discussion. In this light, please view the modern realization of HEMA, Historical European Martial Arts. It utilizes centuries-old manuscripts to reconstruct the knightly arts of combat. Using these formalized structures, entirely modern schools and tournaments have been formed where guards and strikes aren't just formalized. They are applied with full force and adequate safety gear. On the other hand, I have also studied Kashima Shinryu, a koryu form of samurai combat that was established in 1473 just as the Sengoku Jidai began and maintains written proof of its lineage back to that time. It is self-described as martial science, not just martial art, which suggests the perspective from which it should be practiced. The link between each of these schools exists as the exemplification of a sentiment expressed by Bruce Lee: Absorb what is useful; discard what is not; add what is uniquely your own. These are living, breathing arts, and to think that they do not change is just plain false. We get suggestions all the time for changes. Some we keep, some we don't, some we add. Love the vids! Just felt personally inspired here. Also, I realize that my practices include many weapons, but the gist remains.
At least 2 of the main MMA styles are older than 'traditional' martial arts: boxing and wrestling are the oldest styles in existence and are Olympic games. Muay Thai is pretty old although Muay Boran is older. And you can use judo, karate and taekwondo in MMA but you need to mix them (hence the name MIXED martial arts).
Can you do comparison between modern and traditional martial arts regardless of controlling ego? Rokas brings this topic on his newer video and I'm not satisfied with his explanation. I want to know your view on this topic.
the first taekwondo schools called Kwans opened in 1945 shortly after the end of ww2. not 1955 it wasn't until 1055 where the leaders of these kwans started discussing what they would name it
I mean Taekwondo is basically Tang Soo do which is heavily derived from Shotokan Karate Taekwondo was actually originally Called "Tae Soo-do" and sometimes it was called "Kong Soo Do" which is a Unification of Taekwondo. Plus Taekwondo is actually a Descendant of Taekkyeon. Which is a dance like martial art before it was combined with shotokan karate.
There is another difrense between traditional martial arts and combat sports martial arts. Traditional martial arts actually do evolve like how karate developed from kung fu and judo from jiu jitsu but usually when the difference between the two versions is big the name and the traditions will change. In combat sports it doesn't happen, now in mma strikers know how to wrestle and spinning and snapping kicks are becoming common which is a major difference the mma today and mma from not so long ago but here the name hasn't change although the change in the fighting system has change the same way as when different types of kung fu were fussed with Japanese grappling to create the original karate before there were distinct styles, people just trained together and saw what works but the name changed.
A question I have, but worded as not-really-a-question! Edited for not-clarity! (/・ω・)/(/・ω・)/(/・ω・)/ I wonder if Ramsey Dewey has any experience on what happens when the person doing a throw or takedown on another person suddenly yanks harshly(i.e. on the limb still in contact or whichever location on the spine is in contact with the person executing) in the opposite direction of the original fall. This has happened to me probably two or three times in HEMA, where the 'German' version of an O-soto Gari was being practiced(except breakfalls had never been practiced by HEMA-only students of the club prior). As I have some low level of experience with aikido, I told my thrower to just let me fall as I both knew how not to die and also weigh around 50kg(very light for a guy). As I was being taken down and moved to break the fall safely at 'dangerous speed'(it really wasn't), my thrower immediately put all his strength into dragging me upright in midair via my elbow before asking me if I was okay. I felt my shoulder joint pop out and back into place, so I was technically okay and thankful I didn't weigh a manly 60 or higher, but asked him never to do that again because it's a huge risk of a dislocated shoulder on a real person. And then he did it again. Anyway, I no longer let people too afraid to trust the straw-stuffed scarecrow that is me to throw me. To be fair, the floor was concrete(still is) and while I have never been hurt from actually landing on that floor(landed hard on my neck a couple of times and many times on my back, yay breakfalls! (/・ω・)/(/・ω・)/(/・ω・)/), I should probably stop being as proud of that fact as I approach my 30s. I guess my real question(s) is(are): Was I right to say it's a huge injury risk to people made of heavier stuff? Is it actually safe and are my shoulders just unnaturally loose for my age? Will I suddenly find out that the only thing holding my right shoulder in place is my shoulder muscle? Will it succumb to gravity and fall out properly when I am middle-aged? Why does it only ache when I talk about it or do push-ups? ( ﾟдﾟ) Did you know that I'm fluent in English, but also a dumbass who doesn't act my age? ( ﾟдﾟ)
So, a big guy threw you by your arm, and then yanked on your arm mid fall trying to “save” you from the fall? And by doing so, just wrenched on your joints. I can’t say I’ve ever had that experience. Get a crash mat if your training partners are too scared to throw you and/or be thrown.
Thank you for your reply. I shall do what I can when the lockdown ends. (｀･ω･´)ゞ My final follow-up question is: Was I right to believe this can be a dislocation risk at heavier weights and higher speeds? ( ﾟдﾟ)
To me, the terms “modern” and “traditional” are a bit arbitrary and blurs boundaries since TKD has both “traditional” and “modern” versions currently. What is more important is not so much the outward observable differences between traditional vs modern styles but that which is implied in their names, ie. one is an art and the other is a sport. An art, a true martial art, is more holistic and encompasses character and even spiritual development such as respect, humility, courtesy, integrity, self-improvement, etc., whereas sport is limited to and mainly about physical development and competitiveness, ie. all about winning. That’s why, sadly, so many great athletes of their sport deteriorate physically past their prime and stop training, get out of shape, and become coaches and commentators as they age rather than continuing to train and practice their art/(sport) as they age because a martial artist is ultimately competing against himself, not someone else. Just my perspective :)
I’ve always said that traditional martial arts become traditional when they say ‘yep, we’re done now. This martial art will never be better than it is right now’. Basically, they stop evolving. I think Dewey describes it better though.
As long as there are competitions the athletes are trying to find an edge and the martial art evolves, traditional or not, judo, point karate and taekwondo are considered traditional yet yet the competitors of today are not doing the same things as those of 20 years ago.
I think calling something “traditional martial arts” even the modern versions of them is because they come from another art or fighting style Even Muay Thai came from a similar style and evolved Whatever all martial arts are valid
If we're talking about boxing, MMA, UFC, etc., then I think the modernity derives from the rule sets. Modern combat sports are sports by nature, with rules and regulations for many different reasons.
I like your breakdown. One thing I think you missed is the difference between sport, street, and martial systems. Martial arts were developed to meet the demands of a martial, ie, battlefield, context. Boxing never was, nor will be, a "martial" art, simply because in a martial context, grappling is more useful. If you punch a helmet with a fist, you hurt yourself. "Dirty" boxing might get to the level of street self defense, however. Sports are for play. Martial arts are for war. Street self defense is for the street. They might have some overlap, but as Matt Easton would say - its all about context
Martial arts for war have been largely obsolete for several centuries as masters would admit. The invention of guns changed everything but even before that it was mostly about weapons and striking with those weapons. As far as unarmed arts are concerned though, karate, kung-fu etc. were technically for combat and they usually do not emphasize grappling for some pretty obvious reasons; striking is much faster than grappling, can be used for disarming horseback riders (this has to do with the origin of some kung-fu styles and Korean styles where they learned to kick horseback riders off their horses) and can be used to create distance against multiple opponents. Some grappling styles like aikijujutsu base their movements on weapon disarms because that was relevant in warfare back then. If they had the chance, however, they would much rather use their own weapon so the point of grappling was only to be used defensively if you lose your weapon and have to disarm your opponent; so nowadays we tend to think aikido is useless but it was not useless for warfare where your goal was to disarm a sword wielding opponent and then capture their weapon before your luck runs out. Finally you can look at krav maga, which is basically military combatives for the modern day, it's mostly about strikes and kicks, weapon disarms obviously and some evasive grappling. Again, no Israeli soldier in their right mind would use krav maga as their first resort but only after they lost their weapon.
@@miesvaillanykyisyytta3252 If it is true that some strike-oriented traditional styles were developed in war, then I stand corrected on that point. Krav Maga, though a last resort, was developed for war and qualifies as a martial art, in my opinion. Obviously, use whatever weapon you have on your opponent, but there is a use for last resort techniques, as you said. My background is Historical European Martial Arts, where there is scant evidence of striking with arms and legs (though it exists) in the Medieval and Renaissance. The striking becomes more varied and technical once you get to sources after the 1700's and as the sources deal more with street brawls and sports. Im under the impression that most Asian martial arts underwent a period of sportification and or becoming an art of entertainment for audiences. This happened in England in the later 1800's - illegal bareknuckle prizefighting became the modern sport of pro-boxing, losing all its stand-up grappling and many strikes, such as elbows, kicks, knees, head butts, groin strikes, throat strikes, and back fists
Ramsey Dewey, so martial arts like Kosen Judo, that focus on ground, and in fact almost all the moves are exactly as BJJ and existed long before BJJ was born. And Is Kosen Judo considered a traditional MA?. They do bow and all kinds of other Japanese culture.
By this definition, outside of a few basic things like a uniform, how traditional an art is would depend largely on the instructor. In many schools for example, practical application and being an effective fighter take precedence over many traditions of the art. Also, by the things laid out here, Jiu Jitsu, at least the way we often see it, definitely seems like it would be in the same category as many traditional martial arts, but everyone still sees it as modern.
Hi coach i got a question my leg got broken (double fracture) a months ago and it finaly heal and i can walk again but i havent recover my flexibility or the ability to run or jump is there any exercise to recover movility do you recomend using leg weights ? Cheers from mexico
Man, ancient Greeks were not putting metal stuff in their "gloves" and didn't fighti to the death. They were civilised people and cared about their youth. Metal glove boxing was fought by Roman gladiators. The sudden death rule was real though.
Between 300 BC to 200 AD, the leather straps (not gloves) used by Greek boxers had metal studs in them. You’re confusing the Greek sphairai with the Roman Cestus. Not even remotely comparable.
@@RamseyDewey I really doubt it. I read about these "sphairae" in Wikipedia but I think the article is wrong. In Greek "sphairae" means "globes" (thus the derivative "spherical"). The word seems to describe an object similar to modern boxing gloves. Besides, boxing was an Olympic sport. Although accidens did happen, the ancient Olympics, like the modern ones, were not a place for bood sports. (Pankration was no more a blood sport than modern MMA is). In fact, Spartans abstained from combat sports because they had sworn to never surrender, so they would have to keep on fighting to the death. If people where boxing using iron fists, death would have been the desired outcome, and it's possibility would not impede a whole city state from competing. Additionally, given the limitations of ancient medicine, any willing participants to such a sport must have been really stupid.
Yes I agree with this definition. Just to add with TKD even though it has one name it is in fact two things. TKD is made up of the Kukkiwon which is graded based on forms and self defense and board breakings etc. WTF Taekwondo is the Olympic sport and it's rules changes all the time to make the sport more "exciting". Therefore it is possible to be a black belt in the Kukkiwon syllabus but have no experience in WTF Taekwondo and it is possible to be a high level WTF fighter with no Kukkiwon experience.
Traditional, generally speaking, is tied to and propagated by a particular culture and set of values. The waltz is a traditional dance that is tied to western marriage rituals. It has codified rules that define it as waltz such as being 3:4 time. Modern dance is penumbral. It is open to interpretation and depends upon the particular kinesthetic peculiarities and the sensibilities of the particular choreographer.
@@HarryGreenMathematician agreed, the goal of hema is to revive the teaching methods of the old masters so it will be a tranditional martial art due to the way it is practiced and the lineage. I personaly praticed longsword from meyers as my lineage in this art.
Muay thai isn't considered a traditional martial art even though it requires you to learn many traditions and to be considered a real muay thai Khru you must learn forms aswell. In my experience the term "traditional martial arts" is just a label used by the closed minded MMA generation to discredit a martial art that they don't like based on prejudice. People hated Judo and considered it "tma" until Judoka like Karo Parisyan, Rousey, Khabib started displaying how effective Judo is so it shows how subjective the idea of a traditional martial art is.
You are being scammed believing that you need to learn forms to be a muay thai instructor. In Thailand there is no ranks, exams or formalities (like the "Khru" you said). The traditions are only limited to the rituals and cerimonials before the fight. Please, leave your inferiority complex, nobody "hates" Judo. Khabib is a Sambo Fighter, not Judo fighter. The problem of Judo is that it is so much traditional that you are hostage to the Kodokan, and you cannot compete in other disciplines without the Kodokan permission, and they never accept that their athletes to compete in MMA, ADCC, BJJ or other competitions.
@@aluisiofsjr firstly there are many many forms in muay thai. Muay thai is the sport version of muay boran. Also I so Sambo and to make such a distinction between sambo and judo is ridiculous and shows you don't practice or know anything about Sambo, you can see Khabib's Judo in his MMA.
@@hasanc1526 , so by your logic every BJJ fighter is a Judo fighter them. Muay Boran is not Muay Thai. If you think that you need to pay for a exam to be a "Khru" you are being scammed. There are a lot westerns being scammed by charlatans about those formalities that do not exist in real Muay Thai.
Aikido and Judo are traditional as both founders asked for permission to teach from the other "traditional "masters ,thus their part of a linage even if quite modern.
I find this discussion always a bit artificial, the only real distinction in my opinion is: do they compete and how. People call Muay Thai a modern combat sport and judo traditional. Yet if we take your explanation about evolving which makes MT a modern sport despite the traditions, that explanation counts for judo as well. I would argue the same counting for kyukushin. The better distinction is if competition is an inherent part, because competition causes you to improve.
I would also think the distinguishing factor is that most traditional martial arts are sanitised and, generally, absolved of any pressure testing. You see this in karate, Judo, capoeira, Taekwondo, kendo etc. These became sanitised for various reasons, for example Judo was used to distinguish from Jiujitsu because the former had become synonymous with the triads. Same happened capoeira in the early 20th century. I would also argue that traditional martial arts are suspetible to change. Things often change with rule sets e.g. The Olympics. Kenjitsu is different to what it was 100 years ago because the information is passed down and legitimacy is based on lineage. Things do change though, no matter how much a martial art may say it's "traditional." You can't freeze a martial art in time. Karate will look different in 100 years then it does now. Also, a quick correction. Ancient Greek boxing used leather straps (but also used no wraps at times depending on the depiction), however glass shards were not common.
Does this make Ameridote a postmodern martial art? 🤔
Ahahah, more accurate and dramatic than anything, yeah, like many other themes, postmodern and post truth nail it.
All I know is Ameri Do Te is the most devastatingly effective martial art ever to exist.
Re-stomp that groin.
You know... it kind of actually is? Postmodernism in art is about creating works that intentionally reference and comment on other art. So... yeah?
Bullshit. XD
The boxing gloves, caestus, were spiked in roman culture (same guys that had combat sports with swords, way to dangerous for sane people). In greek matches they most likely didn't use metal plates, but "only" leather stripes that left the fingers free, much like modern bandages.
Olympic fighting matches in ancient greece were divided in three types of styles, boxing, wrestling and pankration. Pankration was a combination of boxing and wrestling with only very few rules, like no eye gouging (which on occasion made some people not compete because they couldn't use the techniques they learned in war). Boxing matches could go on until the sun or the opponent went down, if the sun went down, the match ended in a draw. You could win a match in wrestling even if you died, if the opponent tapped out first and there are stories about guys that won in such a fashion. Most priced were the winners that competed and won in all three styles.
In this tradition MMA isn't particular new and the complain about not being allowed to blind people isn't either.
The information is mostly drawn from Michael Poliakoff: Combat Sports in the Ancient World. Yale University Press, New Haven. 1987.
Not true, that was made up by victorians. There is no evidence for this whatsoever.
@@canismajoris6733 which part?
Karate as a “style” wasn’t even named karate and divided into sub groups (Goju Ryu, Shito Ryu, Wado Ryu, and Shotokan ) until 1938 when Jigaro Kano was invited to observe an exhibition of the Okinawan form of martial arts and then they renamed what was effectively called in okinawan “Chinese Hand” to a more “appropriate “ Japanese word karate (empty hand) and the “ styles” being named for the three best practitioners home provinces or villages. Up to that point it was more like mma or jeet kune do in that they took what worked and left what didn’t from various other martial arts to create an effective self defense system. Once they adopted these changes and then added the Japanese uniform and ranking system of Kano’s Judo in an attempt to “modernize” it then became a “Traditional “ martial art. Which is very weird because this same thing is what happened to Boxing with the introduction of the Queensbury Rules. I think the reality of the question more has to do with the clothing and rituals involved than application to be frank.
Before the Queensbury rules, they had the Broughton rules, created by John Broughton, after he killed someone in the ring. Plus, in the early days, boxing gyms also taught fencing and staff fighting, and matches included all 3. (There's a guy named Chris Price on Quora, he writes about old British pugilism.)
Isn't the 1955 "founding" of TKD also more like the 1955 adoption of Queensbury-type sporitification?
@@daniel-zh9nj6yn6y There is this channel 'EnglishMartialArts' that also provides info like that. Check it, learned a lot in there.
Karate Nerd actually elaborates this actually.
Couldn't agree more! Case in point: Myiagi was adamantly against belts, ranking system of any sorts, and the only reason Goju-ryu was even defined as "hard-soft" was because Myiagi needed to name this style. I don't think they even wore Gi's back then.
Muay Thai is an incredibly old martial art. It is also very traditional. It is however still subject to trends. Rules change a bit from year to year. Therefore matches look different now compared to how they looked in the early 2000s. All those different techniques are however present in the ancient (Boran) forms of Muay Thai. Even as a sport there’s a lot of traditional and superstitious practices. Like the Wai Khru and the wearing of Pra Jiad around the arms and waist. There seems to be some disinformation around this in Europe and the USA.
I would consider Muay Thai a sport since the introduction of boxing gloves started in 1920's. Thai Boxing federation only began in the mid 50's. Muay Boran basically mean "Ancient connection" and most of the styles branch out from northeastern Thailand. As for the Wai Kru, Wai kru isn't related to Buddhism but more towards Hinduism because it is based off the Ramayana and the Thai's are Theravada buddhist as opposed to their neighboring country like Cambodia that was once Hinduism/Mahayana buddhism but shifted to create Tantric Buddhist Yogāvacara. I know that Wai Kru is taught differently from other boxing schools.
@@Katcom111 You are correct. The point i was making is just that there is a lot of emphasis on very traditional practices. For instance, in many gyms the female nak muay are still not allowed to touch the ring or even climb over the ropes. The females instead train outside of the ring. The sak yant tattoos are also a traditional thing, same with the wearing of a mongkon. The music, pliglon muay thai is also something extremely traditional that has no real functional value. So what i'm proposing is this, it cannot be categorized as a sport or something purely traditional. Muay Thai is what it is, it is the Thai Fist, a martial art and a combat sport. If you ask a Thai if it is "only" a sport, they'll look at you like you are insane. The rule system as i mentioned is subject to different trends. Right now a lot of the combat sport money is coming from China and the USA so therefore the techniques that are allowed are more catered to an international audience. If you look back to the 1990s sweeps were not allowed, and elbows, knees and kicks targeting the spine were considered beautiful techniques. The training and nak muay life, in itself is also still in many ways very traditional. 6 year olds fighting for money is not considered normal in sports, not even in Thailand. But for a 6 year old to become a nak muay and support the family by fighting is still considered an honor for the family.
Something that i would say separates muay thai even more is that it is mostly passed along as a living document and oral tradition. From master to student. In comparison with for instance Karate this is wildly different. So another common misconception i see is that muay thai has only one roundhouse kick. That's not true. If you learn Thai, and train in Thailand you'll soon see that they actually have a lot of different names for the variations of the roundhouse kick. It's just not taught like that. They teach application more than anything. Instead of learning what one technique is called and what it looks like and how it is performed they just show the application. Very interesting stuff. I've been obsessed with it since the 90s when i switched from Kyokushin to Muay Thai and also boxing.
The interesting thing about Taekwon-Do is that, during General Choi's lifetime, it was constantly breaking up significantly with tradition;
Korean was not mandatory outside of Korea (I for one learned it entirely in French and learned my first Korean word only years after I became a black belt); it became the language of referees only by the 80's (Choi wanted it to be English but Korean was the only one universally accepted, not just because it was the birthplace country of the art, but also because it was spoken by both Communist North Korea and Capitalist South Korea... although we know both have diverged significantly from one another today...)
Choi deliberately distanced the art from it's source culture, moving the center of authority and decision of Taekwon-Do outside of Korea to Canada and later to Austria. (Choi later wrote that ''Taekwon-Do may still be called Korean only because of the birthplace of it's founder;'' a statement to outrage any traditionalist outright.)
The uniform was redesigned in the mid sixties (black piping) then again in the seventies (centerclosed),the eighties (grey uniforms for black belts), the nineties (shoulder badges);
Teaching methods changed not only with culture but with what teaching studies brought up (i.e. reinforcement teaching replaced punishing teaching);
The training regimen changed with research in kinesiology, physiology and testing ( i.e. proprioceptive stretching was introduced in the early '80s);
Principles of power changed (i.e. the sinewave movement replacing linear hips-bodyweight transfer);
Technique execution changed (i.e. the chambering of the side kick from knee to waist);
Techniques were added or emphasized differently(i.e. the twisting kick, downward kick, jumping punch and backward kicking became staples in tournaments and very basic joint locking and throwing added to it's official self-defense curriculum);
Sport rules changed (i.e. patterns are now performed with 2 competitors at the same time and the better of the two designated by a show of hand, instead of one by one with points);
Testing criterias were expanded from the original requirements (i.e. performance breaking added to power breaking tests);
Even the patterns changed (i.e. in my lifetime, the execution of the finger thrust changed 5 times in Do-San pattern), up to an including discarding one to introduce a completely new one to better reflect all those changes Taekwon-Do had gone through (i.e.Choi himself replaced the Ko-Dang pattern with the Ju-Che pattern).
The traditionalist-minded were either annoyed or outright offended by these breaks with ''what was'' and, because Choi was the headmaster, they either complied grumpily or seceeded to ''preserve the tradition.'' Now that he is dead, his art has split in numerous styles (much like what happened with Karate-Do) and the traditionalist mindset has settled in all the more firmly as everyone claims to be the ''true follower of the master,'' or the ''preserved original way since the beginning.''
So based on your definition, it could be said that, like Muay Thai, Taekwon-Do was a modern art but with a traditional base but now has turned into a full-fledged traditional art with the passing of it's central figure who had worked to make it modern.
very detailed and rather deep .. many respects to your knowledge, experience and understanding of the martial arts.
@@mykaratejournal2120 The benefit of being old but not yet senile ;)
This video was needed.
I actually took hints from you Ramsey in previous vids. You again and again point out how important POSITION is in relation to one´s opponent. This is how even badly mangled and sportified boxing remains so relevant.
On the other to some styles perfected FORM became paramount, position or even presence of opponent being of second importance.
Thank you.
Well done. As a sport fencing instructor, we inevitably get questions regarding modern sport fencing versus classical or historical fencing. This concisely describes the issue in our sports as well. Thanks.
When I studied judo, I was taught that it was ‘ invented’ by Jigoro Kano. However, ‘ judo-the grappling art’ is mentioned in much older samurai texts.
Perhaps, a traditional art is based on older versions? Karate, based on Okinawan te, judo based on jujitsu.
@Abundance Rey kano combined all the older samurai jiu jitsu styles he could find into Judo during the Meiji restoration (most notably kito ryu and tenjin shin ryu) and took out the atemi waza part wich is striking. bjj then came from judo in the 1920s or smth
Abundance Rey No Brazilian jujitsu came from judo. Japanese jujitsu was used by the samurai, and refers to a group of largely unarmed fighting methods.
Yeah not Judo per se, but Aikijutsu like Daito-Ryu
@Abundance Rey no judo came from Ju jitsu
I agree to an degree, while "Traditional martial arts" keep and hold tradition, many of such traditions are just a cultural thing and done outside of martial arts and the rest is just modern additions, the belt system started in Judo before then it didn't really exist and there was no such thing as uniforms back then (except maybe for military) the gi was just clothing. As for modern combat sports it has tradition in it from fighters walking on stage to the announcement of the winner, you even can equate touching gloves to bowing. BJJ is a traditional martial art even with your definition of it. Traditional martial arts do adapt and change over time, some did it to get more students and to keep it from dieing out, (added a sport, took away some techniques and training exercises) in turn watered it down and boosted it's popularity in some ways. Lots of misconceptions and false information, it doesn't help that some people duplicate the way the art is taught to them and don't understand how it works themselves.
Here is something to think about. In Japan, anything with the suffix “do” on the end is considered modern. Judo, Aikido, Kendo,ETC. Anything with Hutus on the in is the older traditional one. Jujutsu, Kenjutsu, etc. What do you think about this?
I see you are using the same auto incorrect program I do that changes “jutsu” into “Hutus”.
Lol. I think it might have something to do with the RUclips app. On my computer there isn’t a problem.
Not exactly as you said. The "do" means "way" and "jutsu" if basicly the suffix they add to most martial arts.
Although you are not completely incorrect, the "do" is present in the modern versions, but it has to do more with the change in philosophy and practical application of those arts.
For example. Kendo is the sport version of Kenjutsu. They basicly took Kenjutsu and made it a sport called Kendo, that is a very very very diluted version of the original art.
Iaido (which is the art I practice) is a modern version of Iaijutsu, what changed in this one is the philosophy. While in Iaijutsu the main goal was the martial application, for self-defense and to kill on the spot, Iaido on the other hand is about self-growth and daily improvement not only as a martial artist but as a human being, hence the change from the "jutsu" to "do".
So in conclusion, yes what you said is somewhat right but it's more than that.
ah yes, the modern art of Iaido
@@wilhelmu yes iaido is modern, iaijutsu is the old/original one. Iaido is a name that started being used only in 1932.
To me there are martial arts, combat sports and self defense systems... they are all interconected, it just depends on what you want to focus on, what you prefer to do. There are traditional martial arts that have also a combat sport side.. there are combat sports with a long tradition and Self Defense systems use martial arts and combat sports techniques. So at the end of the day, just do what you prefer. or do them ALL.
Just like tea, you have to find your flavor
@@xenomethean9304 Yes, and just because you prefer MMA, isn't going to kill you if may like take some Kendo Lessons just for the fun of it, or if you are a Mantis Kung Fu practitioner to take some Kickboxing classes, etc.
This is the best coment
The “newness” of these arts is really just in the name, and the system. But generally like you said they try to adapt ancient techniques and practices. I teach both taekwondo and hapkido, and hapkido is the more “traditional” art, even though it’s technically younger. In the last 20 years Taekwondo has gone heavily into the sporty side with the sparring style and kicking demos. Nice video, thanks for addressing this
You have the ultimate "radio voice"
I recently watched your material on whether it is a moral duty to react when we witness an attack. There you quoted the words of one uncle, "Great strength is just as great a responsibility", a situation where he was shot by Parker 's refuse to act, however you made a critical understatement here, ignoring the second meaning of the quote.
In one episode, Keene Marlow and his wife Maria were coming from dinner, witnessing a gang war. Keene acted recklessly, activated his powers to stop them, he did, but Maria was caught in the crossfire and was killed.
Keene had become the "Destroyer" alright, the destroyer of lives. He gave his costume and ring to Ben and also his key to the doomsday device, so that he would never be tempted again to use his powers.
It was at that moment they both learned, with great power, comes great responsibility, both in a situation of no acting and in a situation where we use our strength unreasonably.
So this is kind of why I don't like term "traditional". It implies caring for the tradition over the effectiveness of the style, which ironically in most cases insults the wishes of the founders.
The other day I was watching the second season of Baki, and some character, a kung fu practitioner says the following to a boxer: "boxing is not old enough." I laughed for five minutes.
I was training under a teacher who teaches Sanda but with a heavy traditional Shaolin side to it, you had to do lots of forms, Tai Chi and Chi Gong along the way. I asked you the relevance of forms to combat training and you shone a light on it which opened my eyes. Now I train in Muay Thai and BJJ in a combat sports gym and it feels progressive. Thanks for your immensely thoughtful approach here, it has been very helpful 👍👊🙏
This is an interesting topic for me, relating to my tai chi chuan practice. We don't have specific uniforms in class. We don't really bow in or say special words in Chinese or anything like that. My coach is called coach. Tai chi may be sort of in the middle in terms of how old it is. But it still is evolving. I practice modern Yang style. I've visited schools that do what is called classical Yang style. The body mechanics are different. The forms also differ. In fact, some of the forms we practice are incredibly young. If you look at some older tai chi books by older masters, you can compare the differences.
I think tai chi chuan can be kind of looked at as an amalgamation of both being "traditional" and "modern" (if you practice it that way. There's multiple styles and some places will still teach the classical form of the art. And of course if all you do is Yang 24 in the park with a group, that's pretty traditional, even though 24 is one of the younger forms.
Competitions will have their own set of ritual and uniforms. We still dress up for those. And while performing forms is one aspect of it, push hands and sparring/fighting are also present in some competitions as well.
It's an interesting distinction and I haven't really considered it before. It seems like an intuitive concept on the face of it. But there's more to it.
I didn't even know TKD is considered traditional and I did that for round about ten years ^^'! We even learned it was started as a more military based martial art ^^
LunaBianca1805 Yes, from my understanding General Choi (1955) is credited with the founder of Tae Kwon Do (Book, the State Of The Art Of Tae Kwon Do, Master Sung Chul Wang, Master Jun Chul Whang and Brandon Saltz) From what I read, it’s roots go back to Tae Kyon which consisted of kicks, hand strikes, throws and joint locks and this art goes back to 935 AD. However, this could easily be apply to Hapkido also, but at the same time, we all know sometimes history and or narratives tend to change over time.
I like your comments on these topics! You are very informed, unbiased, understanding and have minimal to no misperception about the various martial arts including traditional martial arts!
Keeping a tradition alive can (and often does) coexist with training to become actually proficient in full contact fighting, what you said about Muay Thai is true for a number of other arts like Wushu, some types of Karate and even grappling focused styles (to some extent). Wearing a certain uniform at the gym, saluting in a certain way or learning some specific forms doesn't mean that's all you're gonna train for (or, better said, a good coach will give you the option and guidance to evolve beyond this basic stuff if you want to).
Training uniforms are actually quite practical, most of them being well designed to offer both a wide range of motion and reasonable protection from scratches and other such minor training mishaps.
Forms are most useful in training discipline and basic kinesthetics to newbies, but also as an extended warm-up routine for higher level practitioners as well. Most competitive fighters I know are still practicing forms regularly in their training routines for this exact purpose, 10 minutes of kata or taolu will warm up your joints and muscles a lot better than just stretching or jogging. In the same way a few minutes of tai chi will help you relax after an intensive training session, preventing muscle soreness and tendinitis (Japanese arts also have a dynamic relaxation routine, but I forgot how it's called).
Muay Thai is only traditional when it comes to rites outside the technical aspects. Technically MT is quite modern and focused on efficiency, different than those kinds of traditional martial arts that are not competitive.
@@aluisiofsjr To be honest I never took a martial art seriously if it doesn't have a competitive element/option and that should be realistic (full force/resistance), not just demonstrative or aesthetic. Martial means combative (or military), if it can't train effective fighting techniques it's not really a martial art i.m.o.
What people came to regard as traditional martial arts often include silly things that were never meant to be realistic or practical. Also bad coaches of actual fighting arts often compromise for the sake of money, turning what should be a useful set of skills into some kind of stupid ballet with no real benefits for the practitioners.
Vladimir Efimov , those self defense martial arts are often more dangerous than efficient/realistic. They give a false confidence that you can defend yourself against knifes and multiple attackers. That is why I prefer really competitive modern martial arts that are the basis of MMA. It is undoubtedly that you are learning to defending yourself.
Very informative and well thought.
Love these types of videos you make. Always very interesting.
Great video, excellent information.
In my taekwondo book is written "Taekwondo is a modern martial art"
Same here!!
That's a good summary of the differences between TMA and modern ones.
I'd add that TMA focus way less on competitive fighting which is why TMA fighters are usually not as good when it comes to actual fighting, I believe TMA were not designed for hands-to-hands fighting, but rather for self-defense.
The mindset is also quite different.
People don't seem to realize this, but traditional Karate goal has never been actual consensual fighting/street fight, but rather self-defense.
That's more or less what you discussed with Jesse in one of your past videos.
I even believe that once you understand the real application of kata, it's kind of similar to Krav-Maga (with a more hardcore contionning).
The whole combative aspect of it was "made up" and "added" to it once it got imported to Japan, this combative aspect is not "traditional" which is also why karate fighting is so different from their kata techniques.
Thanks for the video!
Hello. Once again, à great, clever and sound analysis of the term. Thanks.
Good thing you explained this cause that clears many of the aspect of those fighting stiles. Anyway so many theories and polemics but the best conclusion is at the end: GO THERE AND TRAIN! ;)
You’ve covered the topic really well throughout your videos in general. That’s a great piece right there! Well you sometimes even called traditional martial arts and combat sports so it’s pretty self explanatory but that was a video definitely worth waiting for!
This answers what I have questioned for years 👍👍👍
Thank you this was extremely helpful!!
Rolled and taught no gi jiu-jitsu for 7 years. Sadly I hold no rank. But I love it
the studded leather strips were known as CESTI. there's even evidence of them being utilized in PANKRATION...
Not how old or big it is mate... its how you use it ;)
indeed... size helps it... like a 50 calibre bullet slamming into targets.
It's not the size, but how you use it. Hardness is more important than size.
Thanks coach. I was wondering how to explain this to a friend. Very informative.. didn't know that they used to do that in old, Greek boxing.
Hello coach! Hope you’re having a great day! This time a short question: do you think that applying certain moves from different martial arts to others with making people aware of them could potentially be a next big thing for combat sports? I know it happens already but as for teaching the beginners and applying more from other martial arts.
An excellent analysis! The best answer to this question that I have come across.
Good stuff, as always! 🙏🏻
Modern Martial Arts are like liquids, Traditional Martial Arts are like solids. One can evolve, one cannot. If a system (of anything) will not follow the flow of time, it will never win out.
Answered the question in less than 2 mins! Great vid
Sorry Ramsey, but I can't agree on your last point. You said Muay Thai is a modern combat sport because they change how they fight, but the fighting also changes in Taekondwo (and maybe other traditional martial arts too). Check a video of Taekwondo fighting from the 90s and from the last Olympics in Japan, and you will notice that they fight very differently now. Back then Taekwondo was more energetic, looking for knockdowns, while now it is about preserving energy and getting more points with weak, but faster kicks. Not saying the latter sounds really better, but they change their style to be more efficient at winning under the rules, exactly what you said about Muay Thai. Still, very nice video mate!
EDIT: Looking forward to new winning strategies including to get knocked out in Olympic Karate!
I have given a thought also about it. What I think the main difference is that traditional systems doesn’t evolve their set of techniques keeping them as they were taught while the non traditional evolve their techniques and implement also techniques from other systems that can feet their fighting style in their curriculum
Great answer.
Very good explanation, Coach! Anyway, I believe the term should/could be changed to "traditionalist martial arts". "Traditional" usually gives that understanding of "something that's been happening/been done for a long time".
Hey coach... A question here. How do use more powerful blows when sparring light? If I wanna still do the motion. Jumping attacks, kicks. And even falling steps and similar things on sparring. I just don't use them or how do I go about it? I really need to go light because I'm a rather inexperienced heavyweight and my sparring partners tend to be much smaller. I don't want to injure them by accident...
Not the coach, but I'd recommend practicing the movements in slow motion to build that finer degree of muscle control and recognise how the movement feels from start to finish. While standing at a heavy bag, you could also try to see how hard or light your hits connect when you pull back on your movement at the last moment. As you get the feel for it, you adjust your input so that you can eventually switch between, say, a full-power roundhouse and barely touching the skin of the bag without sacrificing too much travel speed to the target.
It will actually be easier to throw a full-strength kick than a super slow one, because your muscles in a normal kick can exert all their force at once and your balance is generally easier to maintain.
And always remember, if you have a partner to test the results on, be sure to tell them that you're trying a few things out.
@@jonharker9028 Thanks a lot for the answers I'll try it.
This is a question I've though about asking you myself for some time but never got around to. Looking forward to hearing what you have to say about this.
Before I even watch the video, I will note that my school of karate, Matsubayashi-ryu, was formed in 1947, so I anticipate agreement here.
I will add, however, that the founder, Nagamine Shoshin, distilled his teachings from others such as Kyan Chotoku and Motobu Choki, preeminent sources on the subject of Okinawan martial arts. Karate itself has a complex history of cultural interchange and development reaching back to China evidenced by its original name: Tode (Chinese hand), often shortened to Te.
Personally, the difference between traditional and modern has more to do with Japanese influence. Somewhere between China and Japan lies the former Ryukyuan Kingdom; one should envision this geography akin to a spectrum of traditional versus modern.
Boxing changes are interesting since so many of them were made for the interest of the public.
From the Olympic boxing of the Ancient Greeks to honor Zeus to modern fights the idea of fist fighting for an audience is the great connector.
The rules of engagement tell us less about the fighters in the ring and more about the public they are playing for.
For instance, by the rules of the ancients, I'd say Zeus is impatient, respect toughness, and is quite used to violence at it's most brutal. Makes sense, since he is both a king and a warrior.
very good definition and reasoning
Thanks for the information Coach
Ramsey Dewey, I'm not sure of your opinion of Joe Rogan but I feel that you and Joe Rogan would have an awesome, informative discussion on his podcast.
You forgot to mention the "Do" (道) asociated to traditional martial arts, they often promote the way of virtue, respect, effort, mental strength, calm, self improvement, etcetc, things meant for life inside and outside of the dojang/dojo. Many modern combat sports don't include these things as part of their essence, sure you gotta be mentally strong and give your 120% in any combat discipline, but in most of them as long as you win nothing else matters.
I can speak for Taekwondo which is what I know, and there lies the main difference between the plain olympic sport and the martial art as a whole. You see many people who probably aren't as good at the sport as others who only cultivate that part, but are way better martial artists and persons than many gifted sportsmen. Your martial artist's quality encompasses way more things than your proficency in the art itself, it includes who you are as a person
very informative coach. I learned something today.
One thing I like about martial arts like Taijiquan is that there is no traditional uniforms to wear in class. No special bowing or rituals. Just show up to the place (might be a park or indoors) and practice. Very straightforward.
This was a helpful video.
hi remsey, thanks for all Your videos my name is johnny cohen 21 years old i live in israel and i'm Training in (good) Krav Maga on the way to becoming a coach,
my question is since my height is only 165 cm how am I supposed to maintain the status of a coach with people who are much taller and bigger than me, should I spar with them,I would be happy if you give me more tips on this matter,I just wanted to say that I really appreciate your point of view on coaching and martial arts, thanks again
Just seeing you makes me smile lol
Traditional is good but evolution is necessary for effectiveness and efficiency.
I have a suggestion if you're still interested in Fantastic Fictional Fights. There's a popular animation on RUclips you should check out. While it's obviously flashy and stylized, there are some interesting real world elements included in the fight scene. Thought you'd be interested -- ruclips.net/video/vJGvSbHmeco/видео.html
I'm eating sweet potatoes and chicken right now. Do you like sweet potatoes and chicken Ramsey?
Who doesn’t?
@@RamseyDewey epic
Even to this day I struggle to explain to people certain defensive techniques for self defence. I’m not a self defence coach but when faced against combat sports in application and street life threatening situations I can clearly put them out of their misery sometimes!
Sir, I have been reading Jack Demsy's book as recommended by you. But I have a confusion regarding the shoulder whirl straight punches from the normal stance. I was wondering if these punches required the hip rotation or not( as he ( Jack Demsey) makes no mention of it in the text and emphasises only that " the shoulder, back and legs aid in this punch"). If they do, is there a way to actually jab and step simultaneously.
The first ten chapters of the book are basically about jabbing and stepping simultaneously.
Shoulder rotation is connected to hip mobility. When you pull your non punching shoulder back, it propels your punching shoulder forward as well as the hip on the side of the punching arm.
Thank you sir
Great video!
In my country we don't have this problem since we don't have a translation for "martial arts". We just say "battle sport" to everything.
My karate traditions...
Bowing: yes, one must respect all life. The first precept noted by Nagamine Shoshin is "I am human and so is he." An important life lesson that must be present to observe violence in its proper context.
Words: I don't require my students to learn Japanese, but I use it A LOT during class. Techniques, stances, counting, equipment, etc. My degree is in linguistics, and I will advocate for language exposure all day, every day. Language is part of culture is part of perspective.
Uniforms: students are free to train in shorts and T-shirts (but we ask that they be school branded because PR is a thing). I prefer to train in karategi when in public, but I literally practice in my underwear sometimes while at home. Float your own boat imo.
Lineage: Knowledge is paramount, but honoring those who came before is laudable in respect of the source of that knowledge. The term "sensei" can be literally translated as "one who came before".
Forms/kata: Forms are the kinetic version of a manual. As Matt Easton would prove, manuals themselves can illuminate our martial pursuits. I know you've met virtually with Jesse Enkamp. I also would highly recommend checking out Iain Abernethy and his PracticalBunkai channel.
You neglect the important tradition of kumite, partner exercise. We have structured forms and free sparring. It is vital, though I avoid the competitive aspect of tournaments and the like.
If you think we don't evolve and improve upon our practice of what is commonly known as karate, then you are exhibiting the modern YouTubian "mess" of discarding anything with structure.
That's where I see the biggest difference in modern combat sports versus "traditional" schools: formalized structure. Coaching is often on an individual or small class basis, allowing one to cater training to the needs of students. I think that's the best way to improve. Nothing wrong with that, but one good coach can only do so much, whether it's providing different perspectives or simply enough time in the day. Formalized teaching allows for large classes where students can interact with a multitude of different partners with greater variety of approaches; where the kata, the manuals, teach the student and we merely guide students upon the path toward understanding them. With formalized structure, students can practice on their own and classes become more about guidance than rote instruction. Yet partner work cannot be neglected, so I reiterate that kumite should not be left out of the discussion.
In this light, please view the modern realization of HEMA, Historical European Martial Arts. It utilizes centuries-old manuscripts to reconstruct the knightly arts of combat. Using these formalized structures, entirely modern schools and tournaments have been formed where guards and strikes aren't just formalized. They are applied with full force and adequate safety gear.
On the other hand, I have also studied Kashima Shinryu, a koryu form of samurai combat that was established in 1473 just as the Sengoku Jidai began and maintains written proof of its lineage back to that time. It is self-described as martial science, not just martial art, which suggests the perspective from which it should be practiced.
The link between each of these schools exists as the exemplification of a sentiment expressed by Bruce Lee: Absorb what is useful; discard what is not; add what is uniquely your own. These are living, breathing arts, and to think that they do not change is just plain false. We get suggestions all the time for changes. Some we keep, some we don't, some we add.
Love the vids! Just felt personally inspired here. Also, I realize that my practices include many weapons, but the gist remains.
At least 2 of the main MMA styles are older than 'traditional' martial arts: boxing and wrestling are the oldest styles in existence and are Olympic games. Muay Thai is pretty old although Muay Boran is older. And you can use judo, karate and taekwondo in MMA but you need to mix them (hence the name MIXED martial arts).
Can you do comparison between modern and traditional martial arts regardless of controlling ego? Rokas brings this topic on his newer video and I'm not satisfied with his explanation. I want to know your view on this topic.
I’ve also never taken the “ belt “ ranking system seriously, in my area. Over all.
the first taekwondo schools called Kwans opened in 1945 shortly after the end of ww2. not 1955 it wasn't until 1055 where the leaders of these kwans started discussing what they would name it
I mean Taekwondo is basically Tang Soo do which is heavily derived from Shotokan Karate
Taekwondo was actually originally Called "Tae Soo-do" and sometimes it was called "Kong Soo Do" which is a Unification of Taekwondo. Plus Taekwondo is actually a Descendant of Taekkyeon. Which is a dance like martial art before it was combined with shotokan karate.
There is another difrense between traditional martial arts and combat sports martial arts. Traditional martial arts actually do evolve like how karate developed from kung fu and judo from jiu jitsu but usually when the difference between the two versions is big the name and the traditions will change. In combat sports it doesn't happen, now in mma strikers know how to wrestle and spinning and snapping kicks are becoming common which is a major difference the mma today and mma from not so long ago but here the name hasn't change although the change in the fighting system has change the same way as when different types of kung fu were fussed with Japanese grappling to create the original karate before there were distinct styles, people just trained together and saw what works but the name changed.
Do u have any tips on what to expect when you first join an mma gym
I've always looked at martial arts 🥋 in this way.
Classical - Pre 1900
Traditional - 1900 to 1950
Modern - Post 1950s
Great video
A question I have, but worded as not-really-a-question!
Edited for not-clarity! (/・ω・)/(/・ω・)/(/・ω・)/
I wonder if Ramsey Dewey has any experience on what happens when the person doing a throw or takedown on another person suddenly yanks harshly(i.e. on the limb still in contact or whichever location on the spine is in contact with the person executing) in the opposite direction of the original fall.
This has happened to me probably two or three times in HEMA, where the 'German' version of an O-soto Gari was being practiced(except breakfalls had never been practiced by HEMA-only students of the club prior). As I have some low level of experience with aikido, I told my thrower to just let me fall as I both knew how not to die and also weigh around 50kg(very light for a guy). As I was being taken down and moved to break the fall safely at 'dangerous speed'(it really wasn't), my thrower immediately put all his strength into dragging me upright in midair via my elbow before asking me if I was okay. I felt my shoulder joint pop out and back into place, so I was technically okay and thankful I didn't weigh a manly 60 or higher, but asked him never to do that again because it's a huge risk of a dislocated shoulder on a real person. And then he did it again. Anyway, I no longer let people too afraid to trust the straw-stuffed scarecrow that is me to throw me.
To be fair, the floor was concrete(still is) and while I have never been hurt from actually landing on that floor(landed hard on my neck a couple of times and many times on my back, yay breakfalls! (/・ω・)/(/・ω・)/(/・ω・)/), I should probably stop being as proud of that fact as I approach my 30s.
I guess my real question(s) is(are): Was I right to say it's a huge injury risk to people made of heavier stuff? Is it actually safe and are my shoulders just unnaturally loose for my age? Will I suddenly find out that the only thing holding my right shoulder in place is my shoulder muscle? Will it succumb to gravity and fall out properly when I am middle-aged? Why does it only ache when I talk about it or do push-ups?
( ﾟдﾟ)
Did you know that I'm fluent in English, but also a dumbass who doesn't act my age?
( ﾟдﾟ)
So, a big guy threw you by your arm, and then yanked on your arm mid fall trying to “save” you from the fall? And by doing so, just wrenched on your joints.
I can’t say I’ve ever had that experience. Get a crash mat if your training partners are too scared to throw you and/or be thrown.
Thank you for your reply.
I shall do what I can when the lockdown ends.
(｀･ω･´)ゞ
My final follow-up question is: Was I right to believe this can be a dislocation risk at heavier weights and higher speeds?
( ﾟдﾟ)
To me, the terms “modern” and “traditional” are a bit arbitrary and blurs boundaries since TKD has both “traditional” and “modern” versions currently.
What is more important is not so much the outward observable differences between traditional vs modern styles but that which is implied in their names, ie. one is an art and the other is a sport.
An art, a true martial art, is more holistic and encompasses character and even spiritual development such as respect, humility, courtesy, integrity, self-improvement, etc., whereas sport is limited to and mainly about physical development and competitiveness, ie. all about winning.
That’s why, sadly, so many great athletes of their sport deteriorate physically past their prime and stop training, get out of shape, and become coaches and commentators as they age rather than continuing to train and practice their art/(sport) as they age because a martial artist is ultimately competing against himself, not someone else.
Just my perspective :)
I’ve always said that traditional martial arts become traditional when they say ‘yep, we’re done now. This martial art will never be better than it is right now’. Basically, they stop evolving. I think Dewey describes it better though.
As long as there are competitions the athletes are trying to find an edge and the martial art evolves, traditional or not, judo, point karate and taekwondo are considered traditional yet yet the competitors of today are not doing the same things as those of 20 years ago.
I think calling something “traditional martial arts” even the modern versions of them is because they come from another art or fighting style
Even Muay Thai came from a similar style and evolved
Whatever all martial arts are valid
Except Aikido
Agreed 100%.
If we're talking about boxing, MMA, UFC, etc., then I think the modernity derives from the rule sets.
Modern combat sports are sports by nature, with rules and regulations for many different reasons.
How that QnA whit the couch work,
Where I paste a question?
Right here. He'll see ya.
I like your breakdown. One thing I think you missed is the difference between sport, street, and martial systems. Martial arts were developed to meet the demands of a martial, ie, battlefield, context. Boxing never was, nor will be, a "martial" art, simply because in a martial context, grappling is more useful. If you punch a helmet with a fist, you hurt yourself. "Dirty" boxing might get to the level of street self defense, however. Sports are for play. Martial arts are for war. Street self defense is for the street. They might have some overlap, but as Matt Easton would say - its all about context
Martial arts for war have been largely obsolete for several centuries as masters would admit. The invention of guns changed everything but even before that it was mostly about weapons and striking with those weapons. As far as unarmed arts are concerned though, karate, kung-fu etc. were technically for combat and they usually do not emphasize grappling for some pretty obvious reasons; striking is much faster than grappling, can be used for disarming horseback riders (this has to do with the origin of some kung-fu styles and Korean styles where they learned to kick horseback riders off their horses) and can be used to create distance against multiple opponents. Some grappling styles like aikijujutsu base their movements on weapon disarms because that was relevant in warfare back then. If they had the chance, however, they would much rather use their own weapon so the point of grappling was only to be used defensively if you lose your weapon and have to disarm your opponent; so nowadays we tend to think aikido is useless but it was not useless for warfare where your goal was to disarm a sword wielding opponent and then capture their weapon before your luck runs out. Finally you can look at krav maga, which is basically military combatives for the modern day, it's mostly about strikes and kicks, weapon disarms obviously and some evasive grappling. Again, no Israeli soldier in their right mind would use krav maga as their first resort but only after they lost their weapon.
@@miesvaillanykyisyytta3252 If it is true that some strike-oriented traditional styles were developed in war, then I stand corrected on that point. Krav Maga, though a last resort, was developed for war and qualifies as a martial art, in my opinion. Obviously, use whatever weapon you have on your opponent, but there is a use for last resort techniques, as you said. My background is Historical European Martial Arts, where there is scant evidence of striking with arms and legs (though it exists) in the Medieval and Renaissance. The striking becomes more varied and technical once you get to sources after the 1700's and as the sources deal more with street brawls and sports. Im under the impression that most Asian martial arts underwent a period of sportification and or becoming an art of entertainment for audiences. This happened in England in the later 1800's - illegal bareknuckle prizefighting became the modern sport of pro-boxing, losing all its stand-up grappling and many strikes, such as elbows, kicks, knees, head butts, groin strikes, throat strikes, and back fists
@@falsefight I appreciate the insight. Can you tell me if there are some simple introductions to historical European martial arts on RUclips?
@@miesvaillanykyisyytta3252 Roland Warzecha is excellent, as is MEMAG
I think it depends on which martial art is a preferred for current times.
Ramsey Dewey, so martial arts like Kosen Judo, that focus on ground, and in fact almost all the moves are exactly as BJJ and existed long before BJJ was born. And Is Kosen Judo considered a traditional MA?. They do bow and all kinds of other Japanese culture.
By this definition, outside of a few basic things like a uniform, how traditional an art is would depend largely on the instructor. In many schools for example, practical application and being an effective fighter take precedence over many traditions of the art. Also, by the things laid out here, Jiu Jitsu, at least the way we often see it, definitely seems like it would be in the same category as many traditional martial arts, but everyone still sees it as modern.
Jiu-Jitsu there is no bowing, no japanese naming, you can train No-Gi, there is no kata...
And there is no closed cannon of technique
The Temple of Master Wong. Its time of founding is not important; its foundation is one finger power.
On da streetz
Hi coach i got a question my leg got broken (double fracture) a months ago and it finaly heal and i can walk again but i havent recover my flexibility or the ability to run or jump is there any exercise to recover movility do you recomend using leg weights ?
Cheers from mexico
You need to see a physio at least until you have some basic movement back, you risk reinjuring yourself if you don't.
Google or youtube physiotherapy. Progressive loading. Start at the current level of you injured leg, and build it back to what it was before.
@@digs1223 i can walk but im not able to run or jump
Haecon-do is also a very recent martial art
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Aikido codified by O-sensei post world war2? Like 70 years ago or something.
Man, ancient Greeks were not putting metal stuff in their "gloves" and didn't fighti to the death. They were civilised people and cared about their youth. Metal glove boxing was fought by Roman gladiators. The sudden death rule was real though.
Between 300 BC to 200 AD, the leather straps (not gloves) used by Greek boxers had metal studs in them.
You’re confusing the Greek sphairai with the Roman Cestus. Not even remotely comparable.
@@RamseyDewey I really doubt it. I read about these "sphairae" in Wikipedia but I think the article is wrong. In Greek "sphairae" means "globes" (thus the derivative "spherical"). The word seems to describe an object similar to modern boxing gloves.
Besides, boxing was an Olympic sport. Although accidens did happen, the ancient Olympics, like the modern ones, were not a place for bood sports. (Pankration was no more a blood sport than modern MMA is).
In fact, Spartans abstained from combat sports because they had sworn to never surrender, so they would have to keep on fighting to the death. If people where boxing using iron fists, death would have been the desired outcome, and it's possibility would not impede a whole city state from competing.
Additionally, given the limitations of ancient medicine, any willing participants to such a sport must have been really stupid.
Hi there Ramsey
Yes I agree with this definition. Just to add with TKD even though it has one name it is in fact two things. TKD is made up of the Kukkiwon which is graded based on forms and self defense and board breakings etc. WTF Taekwondo is the Olympic sport and it's rules changes all the time to make the sport more "exciting".
Therefore it is possible to be a black belt in the Kukkiwon syllabus but have no experience in WTF Taekwondo and it is possible to be a high level WTF fighter with no Kukkiwon experience.
Not really. TKD is just a copy of Karate. Even one of the creators told that, they only added Kukkiwon to cover that up.
@@aluisiofsjr lol
Traditional, generally speaking, is tied to and propagated by a particular culture and set of values. The waltz is a traditional dance that is tied to western marriage rituals. It has codified rules that define it as waltz such as being 3:4 time. Modern dance is penumbral. It is open to interpretation and depends upon the particular kinesthetic peculiarities and the sensibilities of the particular choreographer.
Is Sumo a traditional or modern combat sport?
What are best 5 books that you've read and why?
Now I’m curious. Would HEMA be considered a modern or traditional martial art?
@@HarryGreenMathematician agreed, the goal of hema is to revive the teaching methods of the old masters so it will be a tranditional martial art due to the way it is practiced and the lineage. I personaly praticed longsword from meyers as my lineage in this art.
Modern fighting styles are better for self defence because they allow new information into them.
Muay thai isn't considered a traditional martial art even though it requires you to learn many traditions and to be considered a real muay thai Khru you must learn forms aswell. In my experience the term "traditional martial arts" is just a label used by the closed minded MMA generation to discredit a martial art that they don't like based on prejudice. People hated Judo and considered it "tma" until Judoka like Karo Parisyan, Rousey, Khabib started displaying how effective Judo is so it shows how subjective the idea of a traditional martial art is.
You are being scammed believing that you need to learn forms to be a muay thai instructor. In Thailand there is no ranks, exams or formalities (like the "Khru" you said). The traditions are only limited to the rituals and cerimonials before the fight.
Please, leave your inferiority complex, nobody "hates" Judo. Khabib is a Sambo Fighter, not Judo fighter. The problem of Judo is that it is so much traditional that you are hostage to the Kodokan, and you cannot compete in other disciplines without the Kodokan permission, and they never accept that their athletes to compete in MMA, ADCC, BJJ or other competitions.
@@aluisiofsjr firstly there are many many forms in muay thai. Muay thai is the sport version of muay boran. Also I so Sambo and to make such a distinction between sambo and judo is ridiculous and shows you don't practice or know anything about Sambo, you can see Khabib's Judo in his MMA.
@@hasanc1526 , so by your logic every BJJ fighter is a Judo fighter them.
Muay Boran is not Muay Thai. If you think that you need to pay for a exam to be a "Khru" you are being scammed. There are a lot westerns being scammed by charlatans about those formalities that do not exist in real Muay Thai.
@@aluisiofsjr have you heard of a false equivalency fallacy?
@@hasanc1526 , yes. Did you know that BJJ came from Judo?
Aikido and Judo are traditional as both founders asked for permission to teach from the other "traditional "masters ,thus their part of a linage even if quite modern.
I find this discussion always a bit artificial, the only real distinction in my opinion is: do they compete and how. People call Muay Thai a modern combat sport and judo traditional. Yet if we take your explanation about evolving which makes MT a modern sport despite the traditions, that explanation counts for judo as well. I would argue the same counting for kyukushin. The better distinction is if competition is an inherent part, because competition causes you to improve.
I would also think the distinguishing factor is that most traditional martial arts are sanitised and, generally, absolved of any pressure testing. You see this in karate, Judo, capoeira, Taekwondo, kendo etc. These became sanitised for various reasons, for example Judo was used to distinguish from Jiujitsu because the former had become synonymous with the triads. Same happened capoeira in the early 20th century.
I would also argue that traditional martial arts are suspetible to change. Things often change with rule sets e.g. The Olympics. Kenjitsu is different to what it was 100 years ago because the information is passed down and legitimacy is based on lineage. Things do change though, no matter how much a martial art may say it's "traditional." You can't freeze a martial art in time. Karate will look different in 100 years then it does now.
Also, a quick correction. Ancient Greek boxing used leather straps (but also used no wraps at times depending on the depiction), however glass shards were not common.