NOT THUMB RINGS! Renaissance Daggers with
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- Опубликовано: 28 сен 2024
- Please stop calling these side rings "thumb rings". They are not. Tod's video: • SWORD BREAKER - 1 Year...
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Sure, placing it forwards could protect my knuckles and help me control the opponents sword. But now my thumb keeps slipping off the blood groves
Well clean the darn blood off and maybe you won't slip so much.
@@mysticmarblesor put a ring on it?
I was just at a ren faire this weekend, a local HEMA group was doing a sparring demo, and one of them told me that the ring goes on your thumb side. I thought that made no sense. So glad you made this!
It's a shame that a HEMA guy did that. That means he's not even reading the sources he supposedly practices, which clearly show it the other way around.
Goes to show you can't always trust everyone who refers to themselves as a professional
@@mysticmarbles more than not reading the sources, it means that he cannot apply common sense and/or has never held the weapon in a sparring session. Had he done that, his thumb would have likely already been broken or stabbed by using such silly grip.
@@ROMANTIKILLER2 Yeah, not a great look. A lot of modern HEMA students just go to class and learn from the instructor rather than doing their own study. He might just be repeating something his instructor said. Which isn't less stupid, just a different stupid.
Lost your chance to defeat him in combat to prove ring placement. If he believed that I imagine he has not used the dagger a lot.
When holding a messer, hook your thumb over the nail. It's a THUMBNAIL.
Ka*ching!
I showed my Diavlo Main Gauche to a friend of mine and the first thing he did was put his thumb through the side-ring.
This is an important Public Service Announcement, esp since more and more people are carrying rapier and dagger sets everywhere they go. Thanks once again.
lol
I was just at a HEMA event 2 weeks ago where someone was unironically telling people the proper way to hold the parrying dagger was to put your thumb through the ring because it’s a “thumb ring”
My instinct tells me HEMA is about to enter into the McDojo arc and we will soon get incompetent fools pretending to be experts.
@@aasdqwwcacfwavdsvwe6013 oh no :(
Listening to a man talking about a ring for 13min and not being bored at all! You are a showman! Great video!
Just saw that term being used in one of the comments under Tod's video xD And i already thought to myself "what is a thumbring???"
A ring you find on the Polish Szabla. As you might imagine, a totally different beast from the ring in the video.
It's a ring used in archery, when you draw with the thumb.
It is a device used by mongolian riders to shoot their bows. :D
Or simply a piece of jewelry in my case. I wear a thumbring daily.
And here I was thinking that the term "thumbring" was just another Victorian-ism and that everyone uses but actually knows it's a knuckle guard.
Shut up geek, it's a thumb ring. Yr knuckles won't even fit in it.
One more reason: if the dagger is forced out of your hand, or you fall and place your hand on the floor, there's a serious risk of the ring breaking your thumb!
This is what I was thinking! I have rings on a sword I bought and that was one of the first things I noticed lol. Wish I went for the hilt without them!
Sidenote on swordbreakers, but I find them fascinating since I could well imagine designing the teeth to a specific dimension of swords and fairly reliably letting the blade in but making it impossible to pull out (by keeping the teeth a millimeter or two tighter than the sword spine, so that they bend to let it in but lock behind it). Of course, this is purely useful for cuts, needs extensive specialized training, as well as potential retooling to the fashion of swords as it changes, but I've gotten the sense that history was full of that sort of trickery and making your niche for the weapons of the time
Interesting! I practice Okinawa Kobudo/Karate and my favorite weapon is the Sai which is very similar in shape to parrying daggers. We also put our thumb on the back like that for control.
Note: Sai are not daggers like many believe, but rather a baton with a “cross guard” shape designed for parrying and capturing weapons.
Here in Denmark its often referred to as the "bottle opener" since the smaller ones are quite usefull when used af one
"Thumb ring???"
That's hilarious!!
putting your thumb through that ring seems like a good way to either get it cut, or broken if the dagger twists unexpectedly
Ahh, that'll be interesting. I was wondering how effective these thumb rings would be. Thanks, man!
thank you for the video. i wasn't ready to discover that some people could think that this ring is made to protect the thumb!!!😅😅😅😅
Were there historical daggers that combined sail guards with upswept, angled quillons?
Thumb rings can be found on: dussacks, schiavonas, walloon-hilts, szablas, reitschwerters, guard-swords, stortas, and even on some complex-hilted longswords... but not daggers.
There are HEMA sail daggers with an additional ring on the opposed side of the sail - for example Poker Armory and Bloss. And I thougth, I saw some pictures of original ones as well, but haven't found them again.
I'd also say the reason a lot of left hand daggers were fairly minimalist is because the more stuff you add to the hilt the worse it becomes at its other function as just a dagger. Long curved crossguards and rings are snag and grab hazards at wrestling distance.
Clearly, it's a cupholder that was ahead of its time.
A very enjoyable video about a non-issue. I have never heard of anyone using the side-ring on a dagger to put their thumb through it. I wonder who has Matt hanged out with, or which side of the internet he was on, because he really sounded aggravated by the idea of a "thumb ring" on a dagger. 😅
Great Video!!! I think of how you would carry the dagger on your belt and how you would grip it to draw it out. If the side ring is towards the body, it wouldn't be very comfortable and make it hard to draw. With the side ring carried pointing away from the body it would be much more comfortable plus when you draw it out the thumb would be on the opposite side of the thumb ring. How ever, your explanations are much better!!!
who in the world thought "ah putting my thumb through it makes it more secured" ???
I'm guessing people who have never been caught in the knuckles when using blades that don't have more hand protection. Or people who really dislike their thumbs =p
not the video i expected waking up but i know how to hold such a dagger now
0:04 i really thought you were gonna say “i’m gonna give you five seconds to shut up”
At least we aren't calling it a co-
The real question is why so many treatises show fencing in the nude.
The question so many of us have but are too afraid to ask.
Probably related to gymnasium meaning “exercise while nude”. Supposedly, one USA team for the first Modern Olympics assumed that the translation was going to be literal (just one day - the weather in Massachusetts was too cold, and there were females around, so it was left out next practice :-).
The illustrations didn’t get cold, and weren’t in a position to get embarrassed.
It's so frustrating, like its supposed to be on the opposite side of the thumb. Of all the things, a thumb ring is exactly wrong. If anything on a left hand dagger it's more like a knuckle ring.
When it comes to daggers or a regular knife I never put my thumb like that. I've always used a hammer or ice pick grip
All your vids are so well thought out. I took martial arts many years ago, some weapons but only entry level, and it seems to me you capture the practice and eventual expertise, haha or not, it takes to be remotely proficient - well done!
how would you design a sword thats half way in between a rapier and a parrying dagger and can function either way around?
I suspect you would be rather close to a side sword, albeit with a shorter blade
To be fair, sometimes the hands are backwards in the treatise as well... How many can actually do that? I'm sure there is at least a couple, but....😅
Thanks for the video! Was actually wondering what the ring was for in "swordbreaker" video (forgot to look it up and might have gotten a wrong answer.). I admit the "swordbreaker" did look nice and fancy!
My question is how universal the "thumb-on-the-flat" grip for off-hand-daggers actually was. I look at a sword-catcher dagger and want to hold it in a sabre grip, so as to present the teeth directly at the edge of the sword I'm parrying. The dagger you're holding in this video is obviously designed for the thumb-on-the-flat grip, but many from the period much less so. We assume everyone used that grip for their off-hand dagger, but how certain should we really be?
I was expecting you to shoot a bow with your dagger's side ring!
When you turn it around, it becomes a thumb breaker.
I think as modern people we want maximum protection, but a basket hilt probably just means less hand sniping and more arm sniping.
Fluted handle
Does it matter what direction the spiral flutes are going? Clockwise or counterclockwise??
The comment that 'swordbreaker' should be properly called 'swordcatcher' is wrong. 'Break' has a more general meaning of 'stop', the current common usage of failure of mechanism or disruption of structural integrity stems from that general meaning. You still see it in modern usage as in 'to break a fall', 'break a spell', 'car brakes' (same root), 'breakfast', etc.
My common sense tells me that ring would have been for a staff to make it a optional spear.
I didn't know what that was, but now I know it's a thumb ring. /s
That is pretty convincing.
Perhaps I've watched too many of your videos, but the thumb ring idea just seems like a pretty ridiculous idea straight out of the gate.
So, why a ring shape? Why not a sail, or a wide nagel, or a box? Maybe the ring-shape was simply easier to manufacture, and less obtrusive to wear?
Under my thumb!
It could be a thumb ring provided that you are not terribly fond of your thumb.
Jeez, I've never called it a thumb ring.
Put them on both sides, the end of controversy.
My archery thumb ring looks nothing like this...
I’m wondering if he’s just hyping interest in the new Wallace Collection swords. Damn, that’s pretty.
Seriously? If someone is 'foolish' enough to think "Thumb Ring", go ahead, let them think that. They will figure it out, I promise.
What happens when you have a sail guard on your dagger? The sail guard daggers I own have the ring on the opposite side where my thumb goes. Is this historical, or an oops of the modern manufacture?
…I specifically tell my students not to put their thumb through expecting it to protect the thumb.
I am shocked that anyone thought it was anything else other than a ring nagel to act as a guard.
Keep going! Interesting
Can you get too muscular (or fat) to be able to use full plate harness?
Thumbs up, Sir.
Thank you for this well argumented and informative video. In HEMA practices I have punished a lot of thumb ring fans :)
It's not a thumb ring because in the original Italian treatises they are called tumbo ringo. :P
Couldn't a swords catcher have the same style of guerd as a parrying dagger?
Hm, I suddenly wonder how many of these misconceptions might have happened in the period the weapon was used by the grossly under practiced. I'm thinking of the low brow common thug who has never faced any real resistance before, and thus doesn't know enough about actual sword fighting to know what such a thing is really meant for. Kind of like a modern gangster firing a gun sideways. It doesn't matter how rare it is. It only takes one, or a handful, of fools to fall for it.
Might be something I'd use in a story some time. A character is facing some bandits (maybe first timers?), he sees them using those rings like a thumb guard, and instantly understands how little these guys know about fighting. Or, it could be an intentional thing to lure someone into thinking they are bad fighters, only to show right as combat begins that they DO know what they're doing.
Round nagel then. LoL 🤣.
Thumbs up, to them not being thumb rings.
Love story time
Seems an easy way to break your thumb
Hrmph. Clearly.
🗿👍
5:19 What the hell is this monstrosity?
LOL If this were a thumb ring, you wouldn't keep your thumb for long. And you wouldn't need the thumb ring anymore. 😀
good video but as usual ridiculously stupid youtube picture
Thumb rings and blood grooves😂
Well atleast thumb ring is real thing
@@lalli8152at least blood grooves sound cool
They work together. You put the thumb in the ring, and when it gets cut off , the blood will flow down the groove.
@@duyhungle9375 i completely agree, and i atleast personally have no issue people calling them that as long theres not the myth commonly around surrounding them what they for even though people obviously can think what they want
Thumbrings and Bloodgrooves ... thanks, y'all have just names my next album!
Ah yes. putting your thumb through the ring and completely past the base of the cross guard. The best way to get your thumb split like a hotdog
just use a bread slicing machine without the safety guard/shield , nets you the same result LUL
Mmmm hotdog.
Then again putting your thumb past the guard on the other side of the blade is perfectly normal.
@@keonsterDoe!!
@@mycatistypingthis5450 Well you can choose to do that or not, different from thinking the ring is designed for it
Amazing! I would never have guessed they were bottle openers.
"This side to the enemy" - is written on claymores ... Oh we are talking about swords and dagger, ah yes of course! :)
Wrong kind of Claymore, but more effective.
@@jasondismuke4837 Interesting choice of name that. Does it come from the Scottish sword?
@@markjones4457 Yes.
Can't believe people are silly enough to think it's a thumb ring. Not when it's so obviously a peepee ring.
Now I'm just imagining someone calling it a thumb ring, then after a duel not having enough thumb left to poke through the ring after they kept putting it in there.
Or the fingers to hold the sword at all!!
I would love to see a comparison video looking at left hand daggers alongside Japanese sai.
Holy shit that royal armouries prototype looks *insanely* cool, can't wait until we hear more about the next batch.
One thumb ring to rule them all...
That black handled dagger is a beauty
I'd like to see you do a video where you try to pin down the commonality of different sword categories (yes I know it's pretty arbitrary) at a given date and place. I'd like to know how common (or should I say, uncommon) rapiers were in, say, 1650 England, compared with, say, the northern Italian states. Tied in with that, there's likely some things to be said about links with class in some places, as well as cultural fetishism and the like
It's obviously a kokring
And such a practical design, just stick it in a tree at the desired hright...
Are you sure it's not a c$&k ring? 😏 This _was_ the era of codpieces after all!
I've seen many HEMA training sail daggers with an additional ring on the side opposite the sail but I never understood it, it should function as a thumb ring but then I can't put my finger on the backside of the blade.
What's the deal with them?
Ah yes. Those are actually kits, not finished daggers. The manufacturer intends for you to grind off the ring if you want a sail dagger, and grind off the sail otherwise.
I'd argue that putting your thumb through the ring could even hurt your thumb if you lose control of the weapon in a bind, or get disarmed in grapple distance.
Only partially related, but curious if a yome might know a bit about lefthand daggers, especially with side rings, being used in the early 18th century. I see them depicted in a few fencing books of that time discussing their use. But nothing about example or historical context of their use.
Anyone that has any info they can point me in the f
Direction of id appreciate it.
I just had a great idea for a drinking game for this video...
I didn't know the guard on those was off center, that's pretty cool.
Thumbs up.
Very good pronunciation of szabla
Thumb ring on a medieval broadsword with a blood groove 🤣🤣🤣🤣
I'd still call the Sword breaker by that name though because it's meant to "break" an attack and that makes a lot of sense. No need the change the name.
Like stupid "sea stars", "dwarf planets", "Orcas", "tsunamis", the original names work perfectly.
You forgot to mention that it's also rotated in the wrong direction--a thumbring would be parallel to the blade, not perpendicular to it.
Nevertheless, there's at least one old master, I want to say Capo Ferro or Alfieri, but it's off the top of my head, who has a few plates illustrating his index finger through the ring, and the blade held supinated (ie: Foil 6).
Why are they fencing in the nude?
Because it's fun!
Probably will never see Matt historically examine this question, but, anyone else may wish to puzzle this out: does the 'sidering' appearance pre-date or post-war the 'nagel' of the Messer or Grossemesser?
Because of Matt's vids, been given a clue why blades may have guards or quillons or other structures . . . In addition to his enthusiastic explanations . . . So interesting.
I feel this is totally unconvincing, as someone who knows nothing of HEMA, is say yr wrong and clearly it is a thumb ring, my proof: its a ring near where your thumb is therefore by the laws of logic and mystical stuff its a thumb ring QED and get over it beaches.....your welcome HEMA geeks, come at me, i own guns.
I want that dagger. Please expedite that. 😀
Great video Matt. Also, thanks to you and Tod for experimenting with the "swordbreaker". Very interesting to watch.
Kvetun Dagger 1 has a sail and a ring on the opposite side (thumb side). For people that used it, how do you deal with the ring? In the spirit of Matt's video, does it inconvenience your grip, especially when using gloves, and would you prefer if it was not there? I'm also struggling to think of pieces that look like that (sail and ring) in museums... but I never paid too much attention to that aspect. I wonder if it was a bad choice on the part of Kvetun (but since they did update Rapier 1, they could do the same with Dagger 1).
In videogames, assassins usually use one or two "daggers"; I assume their daggers are knifes or short swords. But what about fencing daggers? I believe it would be a nice defensive equipment, giving some blocking start to a squishy character... There are now games with fencing daggers applied as I suggest?
Hey Matt this made me think of something.
If you are using the left hand dagger with your thumb on the flat of the blade vs a more standard dagger grip that must change where on the blade you're intercepting an attack.
So I think with the thumb means more likely to block/parry with the flat?
It seems to me parrying/blocking with the edge would be stronger and less dangerous to your thumb. And by dangerous I don't mean direct contact but hyper extension.
Yes no? Would be interested to hear your thoughts thanks. 😀
Having watched Todd's video where you were disarmed, sticking your thumb in the ring would have served to break your thumb. Dropping a weapon is really bad, but losing the use of a thumb is worse.
"it's not a thumb ring!!"
Me: "Yeah, he's right! And also, you must point the blade's serrations towards the enemy so that you can saw off the arm or the shoulder if he makes a mistake too!" XD