I finished The Story of the Stone! 紅樓夢
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- Опубликовано: 7 сен 2024
- I did it! I finally read the 5th and final volume of the famous Chinese classic, Story of the Stone! Yay!
Books mentioned:
Cao Xuequin : The Story of the Stone (紅樓夢)
- see, the original Chinese title is "Dream of the Red Chamber" but I still disagree with that being the title! I will fight you on this! lol
Shi Nai-an : Water Margin (水滸傳)
Wu Cheng'en : Journey to the West (西遊記)
Luo Guanzhong : Romance of the Three Kingdoms (三國演義)
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If you know Chinese, you may understand the book better, cuz translation may make something lost. For example, the main role Jia Baoyu's four sisters are JIa Yuanchun, Yingchun, Tanchun, and Xichun, which in Chinese means the beginning of the spring, welcome to the spring, looking at the spring (like go outing in spring), and pity for the spring (which is ganna leave). "Chun" in Chinese means spring and the four sisters' names show the elapse of the spring with time. And the four Chinese characters Yuan Ying Tan Xi (元迎探惜) have the same pronunciation with 原应叹息，which means "we should sign (at the fate of this big family)." Thus, the fate of this family has been told through their names in a veiled way. There are many places like this in the book. I am afraid that the translation may lose these details. 😢 This book is regarded as the peak of all classical Chinese novels no matter from the perspective of plot or literature (wording). You made it! Well done!👍🥳
Translation will also have you miss certain details but I'm quite happy with the reading experience I had and I'm sure upon reread I'll be able to pick up and appreciate even more. I am looking forward to my next Chinese classic, which should happen this year!
@@tokyochemist As a 紅學 enthusiast (yes, there is a whole academic branch in China that is dedicated to this novel. That's how loaded it is!), I am so happy for you. I remember two things regarding this novel in my life: one was one of my Chinese Literature Professors saying that "If you want to understand Chinese culture in all of its manifestations, you don't need to read anything else but The Story of the Stone." After reading it in full, I recommended it to a friend who was interested in Chinese Literature, and he commented after he had read it that "there is no piece of literature that has moved me as much as Dream of the Red Chamber." There is some real power in this masterpiece.
I also commend your pick of the David Hawkes translation. Even amongst scholars, his translation is agreed upon as being one of the best Chinese-English translations ever done, not because of its cultural correctness, but because of its readability and how it chooses to relate Chinese sensibilities to English readers so wonderfully. And, if you are planning NOT to study Mandarin, it is the perfect translation to convey the beauty and depth present in Chinese literature. If you want to understand the cultural and linguistic nuances better, pick up the older Yang Xianyi & Gladys Yang translation. That one in particular is known for its cultural accuracy, so everything that bobbyshang mentioned above are gathered in footnotes to show you Cao Xueqin's literary genius further. It is a bit less readable than the Hawkes translation for English readers, but it depends on what your goals are. Hawkes' translation is perfect if you just want to enjoy the story.
I love this work and it is so great to see its reception outside of its native country! This is why we need translators!
Also, would love to hear your thoughts on the 1987 TV Series (if you can find English subtitles). Its amazing!! If you haven't, go watch it!
@@tokyochemistwhich one ? What’s the name of the book ? ❤
@@Sage-and-Scholar I'm watching the 2010 version on RUclips that has English Subtitles. Recommend it highly, but note it's 50 episodes of 48 min each😊
@@bennyshang2001 You're right. But after I has the Hawes / Minford translation under my belt, I understood much more. BTW: there are English Academic books that explain many nuances that an English reader might (actually will) miss. I ordered the other recommended translation - it's on the way.
"Dream of the Red Chamber" was how my English translation was titled. Also, I knew/read "Water Margin" as "All Men Are Brothers" (translated by Pearl Buck). In Chinese literature books that are sexual in nature are referred to as "yellow literature". Red is more of a lucky color, according to my own experiences, but in many cultures red *is* associated with sex so I can see why that would be the anticipation when seeing the alternative title to the Story of the Stone. As to other books: There is also whimsy in "Journey to the West". Sun Wu Kong (the Monkey King) is quite mischievous and his antics and fantastical adventures were told to my children by their (Chinese) father as bedtime stories. "Jin Ping Mei" (The Golden Lotus) is an interesting read (not one of the big four but very well known) though it has some "yellow" passages. In the English translation that I read those passages were translated into Latin, perhaps to avoid offending certain delicate sensibilities. In my (ex-) Chinese husband's version, in Chinese, those passages were all just "XXXs", likely because the edition he owned was printed in Taiwan, in the 1970s and those paragraphs were censored.
I can always count on you for amazing commentary. The original Chinese title is the Red Chamber title but I just refuse to accept it! lol I have actually had Jin Ping Mei on my wishlist for a while as there is a nice French translation available. But I'm absolutely positive we already own it somewhere (my grandfather's bookshelves perhaps?) and so haven't purchased it yet.
Believe me there are no sexual passage in Jing Ping Mei orginal version. After all there are so many open minded acient Chinese books like 聊齋誌異
You will be suprised when you find out Jing Ping Mei is related the All Man are Brothers, and Dragonballs is talking about Journey to the West😂
Off topic: I am enjoying the color play between your sweater, nail polish and ring. 🙂
I think this would be a book that you will like to go back to reread some of its scenes and episodes later in your life.
I have done so. I have read it twice in the past forty years. Now I am thinking about reading it again! I often reread books two of three times, with a decade in between each reading. And it is usually like reading it for the first time, again. Or, if i remember much of it, I feel differently about it each time.
That’s such an accomplishment that you completed this project! I’ve had these books on my wishlist since the video where you spoke about reading them and I think I’m going to go ahead and order the first volume. Hopefully I’ll be able to keep up with all of the characters and plots! It sounds really fantastic. There is also a reading companion available that explains the cultural aspects, etc. and I think I might get that as well to help me out. Great video!
I really hope you end up enjoying it as much as I did!
I need that reading companion too
The thing special about 'Journey to the West' 西游記 is that you can CHOOSE how to read it. You can read it as religious allegory, philosophical treatise, satire, comedy, travel record, nature poetry, action-adventure, Chinese mythology, or all of these genres at once. It is perhaps one of the most diverse fantasy novels that you will ever read because of how many literary genres and forms are embedded in it. The seemingly faith-driven plot is simply a device and by no means dictates the tone of the story. Although Buddhist, Daoist, and Confucian philosophy does form the backdrop of the novel (you cannot say that the Story of the Stone has no religious undertones), knowing them is not a requirement to enjoy the story. Stories of Buddhist monks on magical adventures were a part of the humor at the time. If anything, Journey to the West uses religious themes for humor, which may seem like an outlandish idea, but once you start reading, you realize that it really works!
I'm really looking forward to reading it!
Story of Journey to the West is basically repeating the first chapter, it is a political story if you study it😂
Big congrats!!! I’m so happy for you!! And I’m so glad that you enjoyed this book! I don’t think I’ve ever read the part by Gao E actually besides the picture book I read when I was a kid 😂 The version I heard about publishing is Cao had to hide his book due to the censorship at that time, and the last 40 chapters got lost during that time. There’s a whole story and study about that I’m sure you already know haha. “Hey cous” is so funny LOLOL!! I was thinking about rereading it this year, and you really inspire me XD
Weirdly I have the exact same English version of the journey to the west that you have in my parents’ house in China (so it’s technically “my parents have it” And it’s an adventure story not a religious story, so please don’t be intimidated by that. With that said, do you want to buddy read either romance of the 3 kingdoms or journey to the west??
In terms of the names, both “story of the stone” and “dream of red mansion/chamber” are used in China, but dream of red mansion/chamber is actually more widely used. I can tell why red mansion/chamber may come with some sexual images, but in Chinese it implies the humongous house the Jias lived in more, and color red is a symbol of power and wealth (I think). So it’s not that weird in Chinese haha. There’s a saying that the book switched from its name from Stone to Red also due to the censorship. So both names (even the 12 girls) have been used by the author, so it’s not a complete translator’s choice. To me Stone always means the og version of Cao’s draft, and Red indicate the completion of the book. So it’s interesting to see penguin published the complete version but used Stone as its name.
And oh, I think “dream” in that title says something about the connection Baoyu has with the other world
I'm going to need a nonfiction book just to explain all the possible theories behind the completion of the book. Totally up for a buddy read. Thinking Three Kingdoms, you down?
The best of the contemporary literature-novel in written 17th century (published by hand-copying verson in early Ching dynasty). The book was prohibited by law and written by Cao Xue-qin (a pen name of a person or a group of authors, not in consensus) with a lot critics' notes alongside the text of the story. The critics' notes are the reminders written by the same group of authors who wanted the readers to understand true meanings and the references beneath the top stories. At the time of the book writing, there were severe persecutions (death executions) against the mentioning of Ming dynasty affairs and the political opposition again Ching dynasty. That is why the novel was written in surface story lines of some popular high-society and love affairs, but the real mimickings were the depictions of those the bloody massacres, the deaths and executions of the royal family, and the human tragedies as had happened during the fall of Ming dynasty to the barbaric Ching invaders. The author(s) wished the readers to know the true history of the fall of Ming dynasty, instead of believing the false propaganda by the Ching. The story beneath is the truth: "blood and tears" (per the author(s)) of Ming dynasty and for her people in that epic historical turning of China that the true Chinese (Hua Xia華夏) culture and pride were deprived...
Why book also be named: The Dreams of the Red Mansion
Red: the surname of the royal emporor family (朱=红=Red）
Mansion: the tall building built in palace of imperial fortess (楼=城楼=Mansion）
Dreams: the passing of Ming Dynasty like dreams and mirage that were buried into the history.
How great you are 👍🏻 Many Chinese still haven’t read this brilliant novel! I, as a Chinese of 54, read many times the first five chapters and halted to proceed because the first five chapters are too complicated. I will make my effort to read all chapters before 60!
I really hope you make it past the first five chapters!
Thank you so much..😊
I'm envious now ..i want to read them all now 😢
such a classic I'm still on my half way to the whole collection... but in Chinese obviously haha... and the TV series is absolutely amazing as well ~ highly recommended
This would be so much fun to read in Chinese! Enjoy your reading!!
One of my favorite novels!
I’m reading this book and coincidentally I found your video, new subscriber. I’m so happy I found you because I’m way too interested in Asian readings. Particularly right now China. ❤
Well hello then and welcome! I’m glad you’re having fun with your new reading! There is so much to explore!
JOURNEY TO THE WEST PLS! It’ll inspire me to finish Solzhenitsyn’s Gulag Archipelago myself. I’ve done one volume, have two more to go. I’m hesitant to read it because it’s so emotionally taxing but, I’ll do mine if you do yours👀
Buddy reading extreme literature sounds fun actually. lol
Thank you sharing. I am reading now and love it. It helps me a lot watching classic 87 TV show in parallel.
Watching the show sounds like fun!
I have read the Hawes/Mindford translation once. It was designed for English speakers. Best place to start. Then I read 3x a direct translation. Now I know why it's called the "Dream of the Red Chamber." it's not a book to be read once. You will need academic books for deeper explanation. BTW: I'm in joying the 50 clip 2010 version on RUclips now. (48 min each). I was amazed how central the short "Red Chamber" episode is so central to the book. Enjoy!
So remarkable how many times you've read it! I can see why you'd get something new out of each reading.
読了本当におめでとうございます！長ーい小説を読むと特に自分が旅をしているように感じることがあります。私は谷崎潤一郎の細雪が好きで、紅楼夢を読んだ人から細雪に似ている要素があると教えてもらい気にはなっていたのですが、日本語版だと完訳の新訳版が評価が高いけれどかなり高価なのでためらっていましたｗ 近くの図書館にあることが分かったので、早速読もうと思います！
私は三国志演義は横山光輝氏の漫画版やゲーム、西遊記は堺正章主演のドラマの再放送を見て体験しているだけですが、さすがの名作ですよね。武侠小説も読んでみたいし、中国文学は探索し始めたら止まらなくなりそうです。
もう完全に中国文学にハマってしまいました！次は三国志かな。
My understanding is that Hawkes translated the first eighty chapters (ascribed to Cao Xueqin), while Minford took care of the last forty (the part that Gao E "discovered", or more plausibly fabricated). That's a great reading!
I understand that as well, but I just wish there was an acknowledgement about the change of translator in the edition itself. It was indeed great reading.
@@tokyochemist Many scholars who love this book refuse to accept Gao E's continuation, and the translator may be one of them. I still vividly remember how angry my midle school teacher was when he talking about how terrible the last 40 chapters were😅
You have inspired me to read it again, for a third time! I suppose I will see if i can get it on my kindle.
FYI, Cao Xueqin is pronounced a bit like Tsao Shuechin.
I recommend learning pinyin pronunciation if you want to get the most out of Chinese literature. You can learn it in an hour or two.
This definitely inspired me to read the story of the stone. Thank you!
I hope you end up enjoying it!
Congratulations 💐
In german the 4 classics are not re-printed, so not easy to get. But I think movies exist.
The French edition didn't look good either so it sounds like Europe needs an upgraded translation.
Fantastic video and you definitely put it on my tbr!
Great news!
Six famous books will be 六才子書，four classic books is 四大名着，some of them are repeated anyhow
要真想读懂红楼，就真的需要学透中文，表面说的好像是生活日常，但其实书里面暗藏了很多很多内容，需要很多时间去消化🤣，所以这就是红楼不是很容易被人接受的地方。可以说读懂红楼差不多就懂中国人了🤣，每过一段时间你经历了一些人、事、物后，你再看红楼，你会惊喜的发现，你又深刻的读懂了里面的一部分内容了，这是非常有意思的地方❤。
They should really spell/transcribe the author's name as Tsao Shue Chin. It helps english speakers pronounce his name properly.
A better phonetization system for the Western market would be greatly appreciated. While I don't expect people to pronounce French or Japanese names correctly when they've had no training in the languages, I know I don't enjoy not being able to pronounce a name.
Oh well done ! I finished book two a couple of hours ago :D. Now I need a break though, its time to read at least 2 or 3 science-fiction/fantasy books before I tackle book three.
Anyway, have you ever heard of, or read, the fifth unofficial chinese classic ? "The plum in the Golden vase" ?
Ciao
Congratulations on book two! I have heard of that classic and I feel like I have even seen a copy of it lying around my grandparents home which I’ll need to steal.
Great video! It is definitely my favorite book in Chinese literature. Recommend by Professor Jonathan D. Spence. It is a book about what happened between the grandfather of Cao Xueqin and the Emperor in the actual history. It sheds light on the social and political life of that period, and helps us understanding more about the background of . Also about the title of "Dream of Red Chamber", the "red" is a meaningful color in Chinese culture, it is the color of dust on your cloth and couldn't get it off easily, a metaphor of distractions of the world. As you can see lots of characters' fates in the novel are affected by the "distractions", or the sins of human desires. And as for "dream", it stands for the question of what is true and what is false, this is a big theme of the novel. Just my interpretation of the title. I love the tile of "The story of Stone", too. I highly recommend , it is so interesting, and I think every Chinese kid grow-up with the story.
I have read a few of Spence's books already and am always eager to read more. I'll keep that one in mind as my next one. I have the other two major Chinese classics already on my TBR and it's just a matter of picking the next one up!
I have a translation in my hands by Chi-Chen Wang. It’s 329 pages so we’ll see. I Also will stream the movie with sub-titles after I read the book. Maybe my imagination won’t be corrupted. I red the three characters in your title as red house dream. To me that translates as a “royal” house dream and makes it seem potentially fantastical or not real. So nothing seedy.
How to remember all people there ?
I’ll have to draw a map and check who’s who every now and then 🍎
Particularly if the names are difficult to recognize ?
You are amazing ❤
These names are actually quite easy to remember for Chinese, but for people who don't understand Chinese, I recommend watching TV adaptations of the novels first. After associating the names with the appearance of the actors, it will be much easier to remember them
Read Plum in the vase plz
I own this one so it could happen!
Journey to the West is more a satirical comedic fantasy adventure.
I’ve been reassured a few times that the story is adventure and now I’m excited again to read it.
Hong lu from limbus company
OMG 🎉
my vote: The Water Margin
I’ve already read that one! It was fantastic!
You’d probably enjoy Journey to the West more than you think! It’s often more silly than it is religious 😂
I’ve been told about the silliness! I feel better about the book now!
About the translation: David Hawke's translation is the definitive translation in any western language.
Then where did this other translator come from!? I'm so confused!
@@tokyochemist Sorry I mean the Hawkes/Minford translation is the definitive one. There are other English translators of the book.
@@tokyochemist Minford is Hawkes' student/son-in-law. I think Hawkes invited him from the get-go of the project. but it's odd they didn't mention about this arrangement in the book...
@@user-hf2sr5mj2p I would have had no trouble with the translator change if they had least made a mention of it.
Gao E's E iactually should be pronounced as "her"'s "er."
there are actually quite a lot of words with the pronunciation of "E/e", written as "Yi" in pinyin system (akin to latin alphabet)
The novel is considered as erotic, is bascially because it contains many implications of sexual activities that are considered as either incestrous (Qin Keqing and her father in law; which itself is an interesting research topic because Cao alledgely self-censored himself and rewrote this part under the guidance of a senior member of the family) or scandalous (Like Baoyu and his maid Xiren ----some translations call her Aroma, just for this implication of eroticism--- had sex for several times when they were at the very early stage of teen, a real-life taboo even in today's standard? ) or even like depiction of seduction (Wang Xifeng tricked her "stalker" into death---of sex-induced euphoria---through seductive words and gestures )and the very forbidden sexual behaviors between the servants. All these are coated by the implicit genteel-class language that may be more accessible to modern readers who are cultured in Chinese literature and expressions. Considering that in Qing dynasty , women showing their feet and arms to men had been considered as irresistably erotic, then The Stone definitely was super erotic back then (and Daiyu and Baoyu definitely had read erotic literature,) at least for the genteel class. Additionally, the reason why The Stone is called Dream of the Red Mansion, is because "Red Mansion" in genteel poetry culture is emblematic of the unmarried daughters' boudoir. Imagine this: If this is a dream of Baoyu, then this title implicates that Baoyu was having a dream about hanging out in unmarried ladies' chamber :p, as in a sense, male kids over 12 or 13 were not supposed to live and hang out with their (marriageable) cousins with such proximity in the ancient time. The fact that Baoyu was allowed to hangout with his cousins in the garden and also started a poetry club under the supervision of the Widow Li Wan, shows how precious and indulged he was ... Of course I do not mean to shed a negative light on Baoyu, he was actually adored by the intellectual in Cao's time as a revolutionary symbol of the erotic movement, or some may call it "the movement/cult of Qing/ Sentiment". One of the magic of this novel is truely that Baoyu's and Daiyu's scandelous behaviors were timelessly pardoned by generaions of readers who didn't consider this book as pornography.
Thanks for all the wonderful commentary. I was also quite shocked by the sexual scenes in the book and also noticed how there were less as the book progressed.
@@tokyochemist, exactly! I think the author was explicit to implicate that these scandalous sexual relationships are corrupting the management of the big household and the further implication that the political regime was corrupt and full of precarious signs manifested in the undercurrents of the harem and the outrageous bribery behaviors of the Jias (for they are not only the officials but also the bondservants of the emperor) GAO E clearly wanted to diluted the tension of politics when they were marketing the novel, so his ending is relating to the theme of Buddhist Awakening (One has seen so many sexual relations that the sex itself becomes tasteless.) But most readers who do not agree with GAO’s conclusion is inclined to believe that there was much more nuanced discussion on sex and eroticism, and the intimacy between Baoyu and the rest of the daughters of the household.
@@tokyochemist exactly! The Stone seems to have taken the gist of its predecessor, The Plum In The Golden Vase, to the Buddhist enlightenment of the banality of sex and worldly desires. But I am one of the folks who believe Gao had deviated from Cao’s original plan too far and used the Buddhist idea to mitigate its intention of critiquing the Qing’s court and its current regime and to lament on his fallen elder generation. Caos were a household of bondservants for the emperor, so their power, once abused, could be considered as a backstab tantamount to a direct treason to the emperor. And the earliest sign of the family’s gradual corrosion was shown in the management of the big household (as Confucianism has suggested). It is foreseen that the girls’ rivetingly mirthful adolescence would be ended by the iron fist from the emperor, reflecting the tragedy of the Caos. I think Cao may have provided a different view on categorizing sex and the passion (to feel), too bad that his original copy was lost….
I can't even fully understand Dream of the Red Chamber; I'm really curious how it's translated into English.i dont think is possible.
It was translated very well but I wouldn't be against seeing a new translation someday.
@@tokyochemist writing novels was considered a disgraceful activity for the ancient literati scholar class.This was considered a matter that brought shame upon ancestors and families. The concept of the four great classic novels in China is a modern one. In the past, ancient chinese scholar had to use fake names when writing novels. The author of this novel also used a fake name.But ancient japanese have different values about those novels.In ancient China, novels were never accepted by the main scholar class。"If a scholar were to write a novel, after his death, his friends would come to his grave and write, 'Such a talented man, yet he descended to the point of writing novels.'"so those four classic had very little impact in ancient china