Mobility Myths with Dr. Quinn | Scapular Winging | JTSstrength.com
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- Опубликовано: 30 сен 2024
- Dr. Quinn Henoch discusses the causes and corrections for Scapular Winging:
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I've had an issue like this with my left shoulder. I tried the way to do pushups demonstrated in the video and also the dumbbell press while pushing into the wall and I could feel my left side working much better than it has in quite a while. Thanks for this video! I'll definitely continue to do this before push exercises.
Yeah, I can "load" my scapula, but that doesn't help me the rest of the 24 hours in the day.
Great content. I've been watching your vids, learning much along the way. Thank you!
So glad I discovered your videos!
Great explanation, very educational, thanks!
Quinn- Really have enjoyed watching your videos. Recent MRI shows a bursitis in the AC joint (Former Shot/Disc Thrower). All Using many of the typical cuff mvmts (Y T I's). The Bells up work (stability emphasis) will soon be added. Strict horizontal presses remain painful, but overhead movements actually alleviate the pain. I feel my positioning under load when pushing vertical is much more stable. Why would the horizontal press cause such an issue with the AC?
Can we fully recover?
So cut Gomukhasana from your yoga practice?
As an experienced yoga teacher with a post grad, I have seen plenty of 'winging scapula' apparently caused simply by muscle weakness and poor posture. What is your advice to the people who don't typically wing without load, but under load their scaps are popping off the back. This tricep pushup position (in yoga we call it chaturanga where we lower down) often makes people wing when they don't have the muscular support there. I get them to lower with the knees on the floor to reduce the load on the upper body but would you recommend any specific cue or movement? I'd like to see this demonstrated on a model who isn't already athletic and strong. Most average, bordering on sedintary people couldn't manage what your model did. Could it also be too much pec minor strain on the way down and not enough upper back 'action' ?
same with me, my scapula doesnt wing at rest, but when i get into the push up position by left scapula wings noticibly.
Exercises that target the upper back and scapula region should fix it
Imo it needs to be treated outside of a class with exercises such as acapula push ups. It'd be basically impossible to cue them to not wing as they don't have the neurological connection to control or use the scapula correctly.
Should a winging scapula patient consult neurologist or just physical therapy is enough?
too much pushing not enough pulling. my sports masseuse tells me everytime, train rhombois rhomboids rhomboids the diamon muscle between shoulder blades. neglecting that causes all my shoulder issues. too much chest training.
wtf. Am i supposed to be able to hold my hands behind my back like that?! impossibru!
Hi Rocier, no there's no 'good' or 'bad' here necessarily; which is the point of the video. That test was more-so to create a visual for the viewers. Many athletes will not have the amount of range of motion, and that is ok.
Im not mobile at all and can overlap my palms completely
@@lovro3127 That's akin to saying you can put your ankles behind your head but you're stiff as a board.
It would good if you could also do a video where loading the scapula makes the winging worse, as it does with me. When I do a push up, the winging becomes more severe. The heavier the load the harder it is for me to keep the shoulder blade flush against my rib cage. Happens with push ups, bicep curls - pretty much anytime I load up. If the weight is very light then I can keep it flush, but I run out of strength to hold flush if the load is too much. Assume I need to strengthen the right muscles. Can you do a video to address this as well?
Did u fix it? If so how?
be careful with this, I have scalpula winging and if you do too, loading it makes it worse. pretty much my entire upper body is asymmetrical because of working out with winging.
just load as much needed to activate the serratus anterior, this exercise is not for working out, it is for fixing scapular winging so you should not use a lot of load.
hmm dont know about this... loading in which sense ? every kind of loading ? been lifting for like two years now, had scapular winging my whole life, i think i noticed it at the age of 14, and i bench press 80 kg in my regular series without trouble, i am not feeling asymmetrical either.
I've always thought that the scapular thing is genetic, i happen to be very flexible and also have this like double joints in my thumbs
Itachi0567 fo me quite a lot on my left is bigger than my right but I’m stronger on my right hand side
edit bazelli Define “activate.”
What if you have scapular winging and pain the that same shoulder when bench pressing (but only one shoulder, not both).
What does that mean?
Probably weak rotator cuff tendons(stretched or worst torn) and weak rotator cuff muscles. Weak back muscles. Muscle imbalance maybe doing too much weight on bench press. Decrease the weight on your Bench and do shoulder, rotator cuff and back exercises with light weight and strict proper form. Incorporate light band exercises for your rotator cuff and shoulder. Be more patient.
Could be a rib out of place.
As you have someone internally rotate and reach behind their back there are two reasons EVERYONE will wing their scapula at end range. 1) The rhomboids become active to medially rotate the scap (they are antagonistic relative to the serratus anterior). The more active the rhomboids are, the less active the serratus anterior will be. 2) As you induce this motion you build tension on the external rotators (teres minor and infraspinatus) which pulls the scapula into a winging position. Unless someone’s scapula is unable to protract, retract, elevate, depress, medially or laterally rotate then the scapula is not an issue. Winging during that initial assessment is not an issue. Stability is important to improve performance and prevent injury, but for the most part mobility is the truest indicator of joint health.
"A light kettle, 18 pounds"
Damn I'm weak xD
What if i do have this "damaged" thoracic nerve that prevents me from retracting my left scapula?
See a doctor man
@@lampej_9251 every hospital is busy with corona i have the same problem
Watch the AthleanX video on this. DO NOT load.
@OVERCOME72
ruclips.net/video/VCPp1DUypo0/видео.html
Awesome video. Thanks a lot for sharing. Will incorporate unstable loads to my training routines. ;)
Sorry to be so off topic but does anyone know of a trick to log back into an Instagram account??
I stupidly forgot the password. I would appreciate any tricks you can give me!
@Jorge Kane Instablaster ;)
this is so amazing! The orthopedic doctor told me I had SICK scapula... although didn't even explain what that was and the physical therapy didn't do anything.
@michael browne thinking bad of other people is bad for your well being man
This man is brilliant. Very cool stuff for the aspiring physical therapists out there, like me!
Happy to hear it's helpful, good luck in your journey!
Okay I don't understand this loading concept this guy is talking about. My muscles aren't activating correctly, why would I want to load onto it and force it in a direction it's not supposed to go? "The push up alone fixes her shoulder blade to her rib cage." Mine don't. I have a camera and film my pushups, my shoulder blades are god damn mountains and I can't get them to go down. I can't even do a proper scapular push up. This video is decent, but the "loading" concept is flawed as it doesn't apply to everyone. Pushups don't fix my winging, shoulder presses don't fix it. What are you even talking about? I'll send you footage of mine to prove it.
I dont get it. He didnt cure scapular winging at all. All he did was show how perhaps someone with winging may not have a serious problem with their long thoracic nerve. Some of us with a winged scapula are experiencing pain, like in the arm and shoulder. We cant keep our shoulder blade loaded all day!
useful as fuck. subbed
12:41 Best moment 😄
Mine has been like this since I was a baby... Doesn't hurt but it looks weird... One is way worse than the other side but they both do it...
Sir
I met with an accident 5 weeks ago. I had acromioclavicular sublexion and scapula fracture. I have recovered and gained full motion of arm.
But doctor told me not to lift weight for life and also I am unfit for army.
Please help sir. I am devastated.
The video is very informative. I like what you're doing. Do not stop! Each video will teach me something new. and I'm just looking for this content. Thank you Dr. Henoch. :)
Glad it's helpful!
Quinn Henoch agreed! i love your videos. thanks
Quinn Henoch In ace we have been told that if the vertebral medial bordrr is visible I mean protruding outward then it is scapular protraction and if vertebral bordrr along with inferior angle it is refered as winging ... Any leads ??? Like is it exactly like this ?? Am I right or wrong
I'm not sure about this.The specific movements place the winged scapula back in position but it seems to be just a bandaid approach because there is no mention how to actually correct the physical problem of winging...or should I assume that doing exercises with the scapula in the proper position automatically heals the muscle or nerve issues at the source of the problem so there won't be any more winging?
This video speaks to me Dr. Quinn! I'm from Wisconsin and I am just waiting for some clinical athlete practitioners to pop up D:
Great video! What if the winging keeps me from being able to press overhead single arm loaded or unloaded?
Should I perform these exercises if poping and throbbing sound comes from my shoulder blade..
i have this same issue
Hi Dr. Quinn! Really like your ideal! The Improper position of scapular caused my neck pain for years. How can I know if I injured the long thoracic nerve? Thanks!
Nerve/EMG test for the long thoracic nerve.
13:00 activating muscles can cure your winging
Define “activate.”
So basically you talked about how unloaded, static scapular winging isn't necessarily a problem if it fixes itself under load. Then you presented one patient who doesn't even have standing scapular winging, show that she can anteriorly tilt her scapula (totally normal and absolutely not the same thing as winging) by intentionally trying to, and then present a half dozen exercises to prove that it doesn't wing under load either... what exactly is this supposed to prove again? Do you know how experiments/data even work? This would get an F in an undergraduate physiology lab.
I'm finishing my masters of physio, and this guy is literally a idiot. I think the title mobility myths is because the video is giving you absolute bullshit.
hey man up and do some pushups, stop making excuses cry baby
the truth will help you one day
Agreed, every time I try to load in an overhead position my shoulder shakes and is unstable. Loading it is making it worse.
Why is he an idiot? He showed that, and it has been shown in research, resting scapula position isn't an issue in healthy populations, ie, people that don't have long thoracic nerve issues. He then demonstrated that once properly cued the SA will do its job, in populations that don't have thoracic nerve issues. In the context he used, the video has great content. He also explained that if you actually have pain, not just the feeling of instability, then you should consult a pt in person.
elaine has some strong looking calves
I think most women do. I think, not sure tho.
Woffe no, only the fit chicks and sprinters
@@owenconklin4305 no. most women, even if they don’t exercise
And ass
Thank you so much for taking the time to film these videos. I've been locked in thoracic extension for so long I've lost kyphosis and your Juggernaut article about it has help lots. I can finally address the cause of my shoulder pain. Again, thank you so much. I wish there was a Clinical Athlete practitioner in my country.
Did u fix ur scapula winging??
Such an infromative video!
she's hot!!
Hypermobile individual here. My scapulae still wing like crazy when I'm bearing weight/loaded. No history of traumatic injury. Any other input? I feel like a lot of mainstream advice isn't always applicable/transferable to the hypermobile crowd...
work on eccentric works for serratus anterior
same
same
Strenghten your serratus anterior. I do bench press with bands for serratus anterior.
Quinn just a question.I injured myself about 2 months ago doing dips using a coffee table.I think I over did the exercise because later that day I had very bad pain in my shoulder area which went on for a couple of weeks.When the pain subsided I noticed I could not lift my arm much above 90 degrees along with very pronounced winging.Can I assume this is Thoracic nerve damage?My Physio is not a hundred percent sure so I have been scouring the internet for answers.You seem very knowledgeable :-)
He'd need to analyze you in person. Anything else is just guesswork.
IMHO: THIS IS AN EXCELLENT VIDEO!!!! THANK YOU!!!
Thank you very much for the information. I have been struggling with a winging scapula for 1,5 year and my PT keeps telling me I have long thoracic nerve injury even tho I have no problems protracting and never had any trauma or pain. I have only been doing light horizontal rows and push up plus for 1 year because thats what he told me to do. I have not seen any progression yet tho. Going to try your loading strategy and hope it will help me!
How are you doing now? Thanks.
Yes please tell us tour progress
Update?
Fixing my posture and decrompressing my spine in combination with strengthening my abs and glutes fixed my winging scapula. It wasnt a nerve injury at all so fuck that PT
@@TomvDriel niiice that's great
Hey, man, great friggin video!! I actually did have some nerve damage and muscular damage from a nasty snowboard crash but after the nerves starting firing again I was led to focus more on pulls to retract the shoulder blades. We thought they were weaker muscles but after years of doing that I was still having issues, I finally figured out after my own research that more pressing was needed.
I enjoy your comment about kyphosis being demonized because I fought so hard against it that I'm sure my lack of it led to other issues in the shoulder. It still has a bit of weakness but I can one arm press over 100 so it's getting stronger.
Cool videos, I just found them!
Did u fix ur scapula winging??
someone with scapular winging usually has a shoulder pain..painful arc..impigement..etc..how you can give load if its painful??
Check out athelenx's video it's helping me !!
Thank you for this, very helpful.
Why does that dude have a girls name?
Ive got scapular winging and I wish I had mobility..putting on a T-shirt and washing my hair is painful. Pt for 4 months hasn't changed much😪
How are you doing now? same issue?
While doing exercise I was lifting up dumbles suddenly left blade pooped in the x Ray report left scapula found a bit rushed up and it's been 4 years still I have pain I am wrech why I did exercise but now I fixing it taking some therapy
I fixed it finaly
@@HQLifeChanging bro little help
Does that work even if you have this problem since more than 5 years because nobody even believed that I have this problem because I look "too good and to young to have something missing" like WTF! is going on with the health system in all states around the world WTF!!
Will that work for me??
yes unless you have neuro issues
I was born with a winged scapular. It affects my shoulder mobility and the way that my muscles on back, shoulders and slightly on the chest have developed. I can still do most workouts but the range of motion and stability is a problem. If you truly have the issue it most likely will never be cured but you can improve it.
4:45 My hands can't even reach each other when I do this with my left arm above, but with my right arm above I can do this no problem
same
same.. need help
Do it in your warm-up routine, your both hands grabing a towel, spend more time on your bad side, pulling up and/or down
+extraphenomenal Omg same , do you guys play a lot of video games and use mouse with your right arm like me?
I do, but I don't have this issue :p
Excellent vid doc, thanks for addressing this 'issue'. I've been concerned about this for years, doing all the banded rotator cuff exercises, etc., ad nauseam with no fix. Guess it's time to start doing push-ups again!
Side note - Elaine is a great test athlete for these videos.
Great Ernesto, glad the info is worthwhile. Yeah, unless the issue is causing some type of obvious functional deficit, it may be an issue at all. Basic strength training with some unilateral loading sprinkled in should do the trick.
Quinn Henoch Thanks for responding doc. I have some slight muscular imbalance across my left-right shoulder girdle, but nothing that has ever really effected performance. Again, this was a really great video, you and the JTS team put out a ton of killer content.
Ernesto Manuel those banded rotator cuff will not fix scapular winging. but it still shows a muscular imbalance issue, it should be corrected. training the middle and lower traps will go a long way to correct for the imbalance that is at the issue here.
louis cyfer Pull-ups, push-ups, and heavy farmer carries have actually been the largest help for me in my recent training. Any specific movements you would recommend? I reversed my over/under grip on deadlift, that seems to be helping as well.
I feel like the imbalance is always going to be there, despite years of unilateral training to specifically fix the issue. I know it's common in throwing athletes (I spend most of my youth playing baseball), so I've just accepted that it's probably not going anywhere. I powerlift, so a balanced aesthetic is no longer a priority for me.
Ernesto Manuel
Hi ma right arm goes every morning when I wake up ?
I have severe in my rt shoulder n right neck , that pain continue in my right breast it's too painful
need help
Scapular winging can have a neurological cause or it can be plain muscle weakness. Why do you keep talking about the neuro-cause? If someone doesn't stabilize well during a push-up (in other words: for this person simply loading doesn't fix it) we still don't know if it's a neurological problem or just muscle weakness. In case of the latter it should sure as hell influence training routine.
I think scapular winging is likely related to "upper crossed syndrome." I'm not entirely sure about this, but I certainly have both. Anyway, upper crossed syndrome is not a condition you want to ignore, because it can cause all sorts of shoulder problems. Just doing a bunch of pushups isn't going to fix UCS; it will make the problem worse.
JTS it would be interesting if you addressed this. How do we test if it's muscle weakness and if it is that (an not neuro) how do we fix it?
If I can deadlift a decent weight, seated row a decent weight, lat pulldown a certain weight, pretty much all back workouts, and I have scapula winging, is it still a muscle weakness ? If i flex my shoulder back and forth the area around my scapula does creak though....
Back exercises do not adress the muscle that is weak in case of winging. The serratus does the opposite of what you do in back exercises. It is also not being used in regular pushing exercises though, cause you want you shoulderblades contracted when lifting weights.
It could also be tightness of the pec minor, weakneness of the rhomboids, inactivity of the lower trap, tightness of the subscap etc etc etc.
As soon as I take the left fist off the wall and do the light weitlght arm straight up , Abd down the top of my shoulder hurts on top...
What does that mean?..
KNEELING is ok ..
I can take the opposite arm off the wall kneeling and do it...
But just standing whenever I take the opposite arm off the wall the shoulder hurts...
What's that mean..
I don't even know what's wrong with me..
I just know I can't lay down all night without waking up with pain down my side(s?) ..
And when I punch one shoulder looks slightly different than the other on a mirror...
Doctor, I also have this problem in my right scapula, l'm 21y.o and I have not been able to treat it for four years, the biggest problem it has caused me is that my right arm and leg are always tired and I can't do anything, I did all kinds of tests, but the other parts of my body are almost healthy, and they said these fatigues have nothing to do with the winged scapula, but after my scapula injury, the fatigue of my right arm and leg also started. Is there anyone who has this problem like me after the winged scapula? Doctor, please guide me, I was really tired 🙏😔
I had Cervical disc surgery c6 c7 3 years ago and I have terrible scapular winging now. I never had it before my surgery. I’ve tried all the PT and exercises and it’s not getting better. I’m assuming it’s muscular atrophy / palsy. Can I get surgery to fix the scapular winging? Or to get it to not pop out?
This guy is like the SlapChop version of AthleanX. Watch the AthleanX video. I see TONS of comments about how people have made it worse by loading - just scroll through. He didn't even mention the neglected SERRATUS ANTERIOR... You know, the PRIMARY muscle to prevent this issue which is dormant in most people with desk jobs. Loading will only help activate the serratus if your form is perfect, but you can't have perfect form with extreme tightness in muscles like the levator scapulae (everyone with desk jobs). You need to stretch whatever is preventing you from getting full range of motion of your serratus anterior so you can actually build the mind-muscle connection with it. Sure, he can demonstrate the winging is gone on a super athletic woman who trains and stretches every day, but for the rest of us: do yourself a favor and go watch the AthleanX video since his solution is tailored to the majority.
I sadly damaged the nerve badly and by far worst pain I've been through. feels like my scapula is cutting my pec and lat constantly shifting.
What should I do if this doesn't get fixed? I don't have much of a great range of motion cuz of a shoulder injury. And that winging pops no matter what range, I need to be seen by a doctor? Or doesn't quite matter?
That's not scapular winging. My shoulder blade sticks out five times as much.
of course you're going to see scapular protraction when you're internally rotating the humerus to the degree she's doing there.. The scapula is simply moving out of the way to unlock a longer range of motion,
This video was terrible because anyone has scapular winging in certain positions , however some people constantly have scapular winging all the time , my advice would be to strengthen your core (abs, back , glutes etc) to force your spine and shoulders to be in a normal position
It's kind of like saying if you have shit posture but no pain currently, dont worry about it. Now sometimes what isnt broke doesnt need fixing but sustained forces outside ideal movement patterns over years is a sure fire way to lead to a much bigger problem than the one you had early on. Perfect example is RTC tears caused by years of poor biomechanics. There are other factors potentially but feel it holds true none the less.
Thanks again, Quinn! Helping me fix myself one video at a time
For years I became obsessive about trying to make my scapula flush woth my ribcage and my posture. After being fed so much misinformation on the internet about tucking the shoulder blades, keeping the chest up all the time, keeping shoulders back, ect.. I changed my posture for the worse by over correcting. Now I have knots and extremely tight muscles all around the shoulders and upper back.. hood video, because you get it and you're not just feeding bad info to get views.
Awesome video this series is brilliant, one on SI joint dysfunction would be very interesting indeed!
@juggernaut training systems? YA HEAR? Let's rock it!
I have noticed how the shoulder blade glides smoothly across the ribcage when I use Gymnastic rings or do the pushups on my knuckles as your athlete did. When I do the push-up on me hands close to the chest and try to keep my elbow close to the ribcage, the medial border sticks out and flaps over before I get to the retracted bottom position. Do you know why that is? Thank you so much for this great informative video!’
I cannot do what she is doing at 4:46 . My right arm can’t go that far up my middle back like her right arm can. I can only do that with my other arm (left arm). Anyone else?
My winged right shoulder is no myth - arm is crushed into rib cage, distortion grotesque when i reach behind & up.
My right shoulder wing had got pain during practicing boxing ,can I use this exercise for lower the pain
When speaking about kyphosis of the t-spine, is it be safe to assume that someone with a flat/flatter t-spine would be more prone to scapular winging? Would the same loaded exercises cue the scapula to track correctly over the rib cage?
I've wondered the same thing myself - great question!
same question !
www.jtsstrength.com/articles/2014/05/01/the-scapula-and-thoracic-spine-a-classic-love-story-to-improve-your-overhead-position/
Jeff is still the best
Its called pseudo-winging of the scapula, if there is no injury or dysfunction to the long thoracic nerve.
did anyone notice the girls stance when she first showed up? not standing correctly at all! check that left foot!!!
Thank you for this. After researching this condition for years, this was by far the most informative and actually effective.
👍
Both me and my younger brother can flex our scapula to wing out voluntarily. It only goes out if I want it to. I never thought it was something weird until today.
So this puts scapula in artificial stable position but is it even safe until parascapular muscles get stregthen.
Right on brother. A few critiques just to play devils advocate. The spinal accessory nerve can also produce winging, although lateral instead of medial. Long thoracic nerve compression can happen as seen in thoracic outlet, resulting in an Atraumatic winging. The long thoracic nerve is purely motor, non-sensory so it is plausible one may not know when or how their nerve was damaged. Also, many with clinically significant scapular winging show little to no signs of wallerian degeneration, so while I agree that complete denervation will produce obvious deficits, it is not safe to assume negative EMG rules out damage to the nerve (at some point). Just because someone’s nerve healed doesn’t mean they automatically get that function back! Cheers bro!
What do you reccomend for a slightly higher unstable left shoulder? I contract my left bicep(which is also tight af) then holding contraction externally rotate, which makes my upper back om that side spaz out and flings my arm into downward internal rotation(to relieve the cramp). I did the exact same thing to my right shoulder...flexed bicep and externally rotated much further and didn't get a cramp/spasm forcing(more like springing) my arm down and into internal rotation....my question is this a rotator cuff problem or could it be a list of possible issues?
Yet, you still see people doing pushups on the flor (load) with their scapular out of control....
Chick's hair on point!
6:20 "all we did is cued ribcage position." Actually no--you changed the extent of her reach. The first assessment you had her arm reach much farther behind her back. Fail.
i cannot put my arm behind my back thats the problem to painfull so this vidio is no good
Thank You, Very Helpful.
I'm sorry but that is not the Medicine Woman
haha may be her decedent
So all I have to do these exercises and my shoulder blades will go back to normal...?
No, he's saying that if you do these exercises and your shoulder blade isn't winging, it means you never had a shoulder blade problem in the first place.
I suggest "athlean x" instead.
Erik Stålman, and you are absolutely right to do that
Erik Stålman I don’t even see the point of this video.
This video had so much great information in it, thank you for taking the time to make! Also your model was strong and adorable in the best way, subscribed! 🤣💪🏻
Omfg! Thank you for this video.. I have this winging terribly.. causing Costochondritis and more.. Will diligently work on fixing this the best I can.. Cheers!
how do i know if i have a neurological injury or not?
Lionel messiy emg (Electromyography)
Great video. Thank you for posting. However, while standing or kneeling, weights above the shoulder (in a military press form)....aren't you in a shoulder impingement setup?
Ok but what if I can’t make it flush (like at all) with any of these tricks?
My scapulas flare like crazy if I do dips
Galko sem jaz any cures yet? lol
Becuase your pec Minor is doing most of the lifting. That muscle will pull your shoulder blade into a winged position if it’s to tight/short/strong.
@@kela9256 so should I continue to do dips or no?
My shoulder blades have winged my whole life. I can hook my thumbs under my scapulars and have been able to do so for 40 years. I didn't have a traumatic event, to both shoulder blades, when I was 8.
Excellent video. Can you also make a video on snapping scapular syndrome?
VERY GOOD PRINCIPLES, Dr. Quinn...I will definitely incorporate your methods in my clinic. Thank you, sir!
Cool. Elaine has swivel-arm battle grip!
Fuck it if you have them, then you have angel wings
What if you do have injury to long thoracic nerve?
So where can we se more of Elaine?
What if you still have winging when you load?