First, I want to thank DJ for such an incredible insightful and mind bending video! He is spot on! Second, I want to thank everyone who has/will comment. I have read every single comment this eve/am as it's great for feedback, insights and to give all of us modelers time to process such a well done video and show warts etc with layout design. There are a multitude of facets anyone can take from such a clearly articulated and logically presented video. I personally will keep monitoring this thread as I for one am learning much more with every passing day as I create what I will call 'first real layout'. Wonderful video and comments by all. As they say 'YMMV' Your Mileage May Vary! Love the channel and folks contributing to the greater good of the hobby! Happy Modeling to One and All!
After working in the brewery for 32 years rail traffic in a major brewery is big. We usually got 5 grain cars of malted barley every day and we had about 4 or 5 tank cars with corn syrup and liquid dextrose every day. Usually shipped 12 box cars of beer per day lots of switching. And we would get 6 to 8 coal cars twice a week. We had lots of traffic. One day I saw the crew leave the brewery with one GP 30 pulling on 67 cars ! I rode in the engine a few times, I immediately could feel the coupler slack running out even on a string of 10 or 12 cars. The engineers were very good at working the throttle when they had wheel slipping on a big load. When I was working in the grain silo I got to respond grain cars over the unloading pit with a track mobile. Loved it.
Your point about starting small is important. The thing people forget about when planning their basement empire is that you also have to maintain it once it is built. Cleaning track takes time, as does dusting and general maintenance - parts might break off or glue gives way over time, not to mention locomotive and rolling stock maintenance. The bigger the layout, the more time devoted to keeping it running. You might build the giant empire of your dreams, but you might find yourself a full-time maintenance person instead of operating it. Start small so you can learn what you can handle and build from there. Great video with lots of great insights. Well done.
DJ in the 50's the coal mines were like that. There are several layouts that model coal mining in that era, how they ran is they dropped off cars and they were loaded before the next train. Then the coal cars from each mine were brought to a central yard and combined into longer trains for larger customers or sent to a classification yard for shipment to smaller customers like coal bins, small power plants, etc.
Yeah, old school coal mines were usually stub layouts, but they still didn't look like the one on this trackplan. there should be a lot of track beyond the loading structure for storing cars waiting to be loaded, and what is basically a small storage yard in front of it of loaded cars track sorted by coal grade. As with most things, Armstrong has a good diagram of various levels of selective compression of such a mine
Thanks for another great video from an engineer’s viewpoint. As “painful” as it it is, you diplomatically addressed the issue most of us face in modeling railroads: “Do I want to do toy trains, prototypical trains, or a mix?” We each have to decide what we want to pursue without “judging” ourselves or others. :) This video was an excellent exercise in how to move from running in a long loop to a more realistic approach. Thanks again for your insights.
I used to work with a former UP conductor that worked in KCK. This was a gold mine for me since I am modeling the MP in KC 1961. I would ask him various questions -- probably much to his annoyance. One day, I asked him about runaround moves. Whether or not it was true they avoided them and worked switches as trailing points out and back. He gave me a strange look. "We just took it to the wye." He made a sweeping gesture like an orchestra conductor in 3/4 time. "Woop. Woop. Woop. Then worked the industries." It was like a whole new world opened up. I already had a wye in my track plan between the yard and city proper, but I had placed it more to facilitate trains coming in and out of the stub yard. The fact it would be integral to the entire switching scheme really opened up the track plan. I removed tracks that otherwise had to be left available for runaround moves which translated into 4" more depth for larger "railroad worthy" structures, turning those into second loading tracks (through the boxcars on the adjacent warehouse tracks) to double the operational capacity, or allowing room for forced perspective background city flats. On other layouts, this might be 4" more for foreground scenery, but I already use buildings between the aisle and the rails to create visual breaks and mini-shadow-box scenes. Forcing the viewer to view from the angles I want them to see the layout from helps make it look bigger, too. Eliminating the "other" set of switches on the various runarounds saves money and allows an extra 12" of siding length (in HO) -- which, again, translates into more of a big city feel. My advice to anyone modeling the city -- or who has a large city -- on their layout is to incorporate a wye. The easiest way is to have an oval form two of the tail tracks (so train length and long tail tracks are less an issue) with the industrial section on the third tail (think John Olson's Jerome & Southwestern with the Back Alley & Wharf extension if you go back to 1981....). As for the layout in the video, it appears to be meant for continuous running mainline. The industries, yards, and "cities" appear more for parking cool rolling stock (like MoW equipment and extra locomotives in the yard) while varnish and time freights hammer the high iron. More as scenic elements than actually part of an operations scheme. I may be wrong, but that's how it looks.
@@petesilcox4102 I wasn't really worried about the coal mine or any other industry as I assessed the purpose of the layout (the way it will please the owner). Any industry/industrial area is going to be representational. 1 car = 5 cars or such. After classification (and a good conductor as you work the line if the yardmaster doesn't block cars during makeup), you're switching industries in blocks of cars. At that point on the model, 1 car can represent 10. In other responses, I have mentioned that commodities moved in blocks of cars in mixed freights. TOFC, coal, meat, produce, whatever. Unit trains weren't really the modus operandi until the 70s give or take. Sure there were seasonal produce or meat trains but that was the exception, not the rule in this era. So I don't think I missed anything. My observation is that Rock Island, IL, and Kansas City are two "major" yards on a basement empire with 10-12 industries total. And, what? 10 feet of separation with no industry in between? I was also looking at the Depot in Colorado Springs, CO, being a focal point along with the peninsula with trestles being the first thing the visitor should see. And then there is the continuous-run bridge across the entrance rather than a point-to-point design or dog bone. All that tells me the railroad is designed to "run" more than "operate" -- which is fine. I think beyond era, I would want to know things like how many people were going to operate a session and the prototype railroad. Rock Island is my best guess. But most importantly, do you want operations or watch trains run? The hobby is big enough to fulfill whatever makes the owner happy. Even though I love operations, it's quite relaxing just to let the trains run, too. I also think the eastern terminus should be on one side of the door and the western terminus on the other. As it is, the middle point is at the door and there is random countryside between IA and CO. The other option is that somehow CO is between IA and KC. Or that it's a wishbone line like the C&EI with a line south from RI to KC and a line west from RI through IA to CO. Personally, I would make a point-to-point layout with Colorado Springs opposite side of the entry from where KC is, move Rock Island to where KC is and put KC in the alcove. You can leave the continuous run across the entrance. And operate it either as point-to-point (not utilizing the bridge) or continuous run. If the prototype is the RI, you can use the joint RI/UP Depot in KCK (photos online) instead of KC Union Station to represent KC and, by moving Springs further down the line, allow your passenger trains to stretch their legs between (and at) stations. It also allows space for intermediate "small towns" between the big cities to generate traffic to give the yards a purpose. Again, whether those industries generate 1 carload or 5 or 20 logistically doesn't matter because a single car represents a block of cars with the same move. At that point, how many cars an industry track holds becomes a matter of space, aesthetics, and suspension of disbelief. One of my pet peeves are industries such as grain elevators without extended sidings for the loaded cars to be moved down to fill the next empty. You can have a three car siding, but if there's no track beyond the fill chute, you can only load 1 car. As such, to "realistically" be able to fill 3 boxcars (in 1950) with grain, your siding would have to have room for two cars between the clearance point of the switch and the chute, 1 car at the chute, and extend 2 cars past the chute. But you don't always see that on model railroads because there's a willing suspension of disbelief. Same with the coal mine. It could hold 1 car and I would be fine with it. But that's me and my interests.
Okay, this is the BEST advice on RUclips! Let's all face it, you can't beat the knowledge base that a REAL locomotive engineer that also is into model railroading has.
Hi DJ. I understand your thinking on this layout. I don’t like switching. But sure like watching my trains run circles. This hobby has something for everyone.
Hey DJ! I just found your channel this week and have been watching a ton of your videos, I love the content! I’ve been into real and model trains my whole life and I recently started researching scale modeling as something to do with my sons. My grandparents lived on the Cleveland Line through Ravenna, OH and I spent many hours watching Conrail trains with my dad. I really appreciate your real engineer tips. I also love your drone videos. I am also a drone pilot and I have family in Johnstown, I went to school at Duquesne in Pittsburgh, and my in-laws live in Trafford, so I recognize many of the locations. Anyway, long way of saying: I love what you’re doing! Stay safe!
But the layouts have to be designed to fit the era they represent. And the appropriate locomotives and rolling stock. How many modelers have bought Big Boys when they have a small layout with tight curves? I think the only time the Big Boys saw the Midwest was when it was delivered, moved to a museum or on one of the UPs public relations tours. Small layout with tight curves and short turnouts. Small locomotives and short cars. 50 footers max. The same applies to scenery. I mean who doesn't like mountains. The surveyors and engineers who actually built the rail network we have hated grades and tunnels. Grades, tunnels and bridges were only built when absolutely required. Of course some of the signature scenes in North American railroading were built to reduce operating costs while dealing with changes in elevation. Tehachapi, Old Fort and Horseshoe come to mind.
Some really great advice. I see what you mean. Like the idea of less is more thing like you say to think like a real railroad is great advice . Thank for your insight 👍
Thank you to both the layout contributor and DJ. You did such a good job of taking theory and applying it operational continuity. Very grateful to the both of you.
Thank you, i am 69 yo Starting my Decond RR after 30 yrs HO scale. Having fun expanding ides from what I once had on halg the space zi have now. Thinking about cars just as much as rail. THANK YOU KINGSTON ON. Much Steam History here.
Interesting. Thanks for sharing. I enjoyed your comments on why you need a town, even though I am over seeing your typical main street modeled. I’ll just use my imagination for the town starting just off the table.
Hi DJ, your friend must be a Saint - Your analysis was brutal AND _so helpful!_ It's already getting me to re-think some things. Your mentioning that you all use the mainline as you're switching gives me more flexibility and helps me feel more "proto" when I do it (because I do it anyway 😉). Blessings & Joy Everyone! 😌💜
Great tips 👍! I heard that as a model railroader [hobbyist] that you should decide whether you want the THEME of your layout to be a particular INDUSTRY, or PASSENGER service or perhaps BOTH. What a Railroader needs to study is how the industry for their RAILROAD LAYOUT is REALISTICALLY set up. Your tips on the RAIL YARD are very important because that is where the starting point should be. Thanks for all of the realistic pointers to make a Model Railroad make sense.
Thanks DJ. I totally agree with not wanting to see all the track. Scenic breaks definitely give the illusion of a larger railroad. My first layout when I was 10 had all those mistakes. At 34 with a small basement. Starting with a steam era switching layout to build up my skills.
Those books were funny! I will say that practices of railroads in the 50s were quite a bit different, but the basic ideas of convenience that you mentioned are the same. If anything, long sidings should extend past the industry so they can pull cars forward or roll them back with a car mover pole, especially then. Steam servicing would need to be located so that the engine rolls over the ash pit, through the coaling tower, and into engine houses. The pre-unit train days, might allow you to drop a hopper or two off at the back of the brewery as coal powered the 1950s world. This might justify a long siding, hoppers at the back, box cars at the front. You mentioned the tracks leading off to the outside world. In the midwest we had lots of diamonds with other railroads. Good thing to add and makes a perfect place for interlocking towers.
Great video. I got some good info from this. I am building a layout now. I actually started redoing part of it. When I looked at one area it made no sense so I ripped that section up . Good thing I only had everything just tacked down
This was a hilarious video... I was tearing up. DJ ripped this layout up oneside and down the other. I know he was just giving an honest take. Unintentionally funny
I haven't read all the comments and unless I missed it somewhere in the video, I see one glaring error that hasn't been mentioned. As this is supposed to be a steam era layout it needs a way to turn locomotives, preferably near the yard. There is going to have to be a turntable or wye worked into the design somewhere.
I was a big fan of those Atlas Track Planning books and they worked -- I bought far more track than I needed (fortunately it was cheap in the old days -- not so today!). Great video -- I learned a lot.
Hey DJ, I think I saw you at the Connellsville McDonald's a couple weeks ago. But I wasn't sure, so I didn't say anything. Thanks for another great video 👍
Several things stand out to me: 1. Where do you turn the steam engines around? There's no wye or turntable (which takes up a lot of space in both cases, but either/or would be present in a layout depicting the late steam/transition era). 2. The scope of the layout is FAR too big for the space available, which is why it seems to be too much. There would be plenty of railroad action around Rock Island or KC alone, much less the need to run across multiple states. It seems to me you could model Rock Island, IL, and maybe cross the Mississippi River into Davenport, IA, and that be more than enough to fill the space. Looking at the satellite view, there seems like this was an area served by a LOT of rail, and the landscape has certainly changed over the decades, but the roads and building shapes are the tell. Crescent Rail Bridge leads into a wye, which gives you a place to turn steam locomotives. The west leg then goes into a yard and industrial area - including a HUGE Purina animal food plant that has been there for decades. I would look at expanding/moving the yard ladder around the corner into the space for "Exira, IA", and have a ladder at the right end, then compressing space and have the wye lead into the corner of the layout - which puts it adjacent to the yard and a prototypical position. Spread industries around the walls and then represent Rock Island along the wall to the left of the room entry. The bridge over the Mississippi River could be the bridge over the entry. A 2-3 track yard could represent a yard along 5th Avenue at Abbey Station (your Passenger connection) and the peninsula could represent the Rock Island Arsenal. This could be an impressive modeling opportunity that doesn't take up as much space as the planned bubble, and thus creates more aisle for operators. The R.I. yard could be an interchange between two railroads, or just shunting locals back and forth between the two yards to serve local industries (such as Purina on one side and the Arsenal on the other). But then there could be a 2 or 3 track hidden staging yard (behind low-relief buildings or a skyboard) along the wall and around the corner behind Rock Island, giving you "off-layout" origins/destinations for trains. Narrowing the gap along the left wall would allow for a scenic transition between the two areas. I think this plan would focus the scope much more and make for a fun operating layout, while still having continuous running. Further, it would create two places to work back and forth between, add "off-layout" staging, and allow for a prototype-based layout that would be something to really talk about. But that's my unsolicited two cents' worth. I hope whatever was decided makes the owner happy, because in the end that's all that matters. Thanks for sharing, DJ.
I lived in the Quad Cities in the 1970's. The place of a part time job was, in fact, located adjacent to the elevated portion of the RI line in downtown Davenport. While my personal modeling interests lie elsewhere, I find find your ideas very intriguing and believe they'd make a good starting point for a layout design.
I often find myself looking at model railroads and thinking "Why would the real railroad done that." The railroad is always going to take the easiest/cheapest option when making track (or anything else). That comes back to less is more concept. I am in the middle of building a basement empire, and I have several long stretches with nothing but a main and scenery. It also makes life easier when you go to wire the layout.
Brewery should have 2 tracks one inbound for grain cars and one from shipping bottling/canning building outbound boxcars to grocery warehouses can also have 3 track for tank cars of finished beer to offsite bottling plant
Something you said really stuck out, about adding a parking lot. Like people out all these businesses on a layout and hotels and things like that and none of them ever have parking lots. It baffles me, especially when the modelers are sticklers for real world accuracy.
My opinion is, this person should spend the money on a house that allows for a better track plan. 😂If this was a LEGO train layout... this person is going to save a lot of money just buying the LEGO track and not those expensive Modulars!
Thanks for advice! Just looked at my small layout and realized--I need to add an interchange! Unfortunately, I will have to temporarily tear up some track and add an atlas super switch--but I think it will solve my operational dilemma and make my layout more realistic. Once my garage is warmer for wet glue application, I will tackle it (54 degrees currently). Now I just need to figure out where to put the gas station and houses in my fictional town. Thanks!
Thank you for the great thoughts. I can see some of the same "errors" (or pet peeves) in some of the designs I've been messing with - part of the reason I have been playing with ideas for a few years while I get my space ready for the benchwork. Looks like I've got some more redesigning to do!
Great video, DJ! I love steam as much as anyone, but it makes some demands on a layout. How do you turn the darn thing around? If you are truly committed to steam, you have to make room for a wye or turntable.
Lots of good info DJ and the revision is pretty spot on! Man if you saw my track plan, you'd probably freak out due to how much track I've put in there between having an open-ended classification yard and two stub ended interchange yards. I also wanted to add a switching puzzle at one area with a few industries that I guess you could also say it has a 2 track interchange yard as well. My classification yard has 7 tracks which one will be for arrivals and the other 6 are for 6 different trains that can depart from that yard. Needless to say, I've learned a lot from your videos and it does help to get someone's perspective who actually works on something that we model. - Jason
As always you give us food for thought, having seen railroads from the cab you are able to look outside the box a lot easier than we do. I agree with slot of what you said, I am getting ready to start my first personal layout ( I have been a member of several clubs and helped others build their layouts), to avoid the pitfall of biting of too much, I have decided to model a small section which is a yard and interchange with hand laid track in N Scale that way I will be able to do some switching while working on other sections, thanks for the idea
Some great tips from a actual engineer, who would have thought? Too bad you don’t have the time for analyzing track plans because it surely would be a of extreme interest to a large audience. Thanks for doing this.
Take a look at any good satellite mapping of the area you want to model. You will learn more in a day of railfanning once you fully understand the track plan.
I'm just starting out, built l-girder base and thought, wait, I need a plan, so downloaded xtrackcad to see what I can come up with. Anyway this video is timely to help me think better in design.
Whenever I get cracking on a layout, I'll be using "my" Milwaukee Road (and N&W, D&H, LV, RDG, WM, GM&O and NYNH&H) for inspiration.... Excellent stuff! 👍🏻👌🏻👏🏻😎
Will start tomorrow morning actually. Will try to have some copies for Saturday train show and then possibly a ebook. It would be based upon areas I work
I grew up in the Midwest and lived a good part of my life there. I'm unaware of any car float operating in the region. There are barge terminals on the Missouri and Mississippi Rivers, but those are for loading bulk commodities and not railcar ferry operations. I've been in Kansas City where there are many bridges, but no car ferry. Bridges are much more efficent than ferries for crossing the rivers in KC.
Jerry, Mopac had a car float operation on the Mississippi River between Mississippi and Arkansas. The IC had a similar operation between Illinois and Kentucky near where the Ohio River flows into the Mississippi.
There was also a car ferry operation on MP / ex Missouri-Illinois Railroad at Ste Genevieve, MO (south of St Louis) and Illinois - Kellogg, IL I want to say. Saint Gen, as it's called, is a lovely little town with historic French colonial era restored structures, and a large open pit lime mine near the former car ferry site. There's still an automobile ferry operation on the old railroad site, too.
This is an exception & not often seen but there is a rail line near by that is quite long, off the main line, but you can see all the businesses that have failed and closed except for a few along the way and at the very end. When a local comes down the line there is a caboose where the conductor rides. There is a big old GE plant that went out of business, they had a trash conversion plant to produce steam that got shutdown, there is a tire production plant that still uses occasional rail service, and there is a mile long stretch where the first half still has occasional train service but the last half mile has been converted into a greenway. But NS is still replacing ties & I can’t imagine they are doing the maintenance unless NS is making money. But off this line the businesses are either extremely close by or back up to the local line.
When I first got a train set I went to the local hobby shop and took all I “needed” to the front counter and the owner told me to put half of it back as he wanted a customer not someone who will just quit. My first layout grew in leaps and bounds and by the time I was ready to start running trains in earnest we had to move, such a waste.
I would put a water stand near the coal tower, don’t want to have to run to the opposite end of the yard to fill locomotives engines. Plus since this is basically a 1950ish layout you need to have a caboose for the rear end crew. Also, there were some small coal loaders back in the day, even one car spots for minds that were not located on a railroad that were loaded by trucks.
I have started so many layouts, changed my mind or had a career relocation forced on me that has caused me to have a different space each time. That caused me to start over. What I had previously didn't fit the space I had available. This happened so many times that I have lost count. I have changed scales over the years too. However, each rendition I have built I learned something. This week I tore down another layout. It was good, but I had maximized the layout space I had available to the point my lovely wife referred to it as the elephant in the man cave. The man cave is the only way out of the house to the backyard. I am currently modeling On30 steam in the 1912 time period. My current effort is rising out of the plywood I ripped this week. On my plan I am modeling an Arizona desert town in one layout. One town with switching through the town on an L shaped set of baseboards. 12' x30" and 9' x30". 5 removable boards make up the L shape. I have the railroad structures, two stall engine house, turntable, freight house and passenger station at one end. Then the town structures, dirt roads and a dry gulch. Across the gulch is the big industry, a copper mine. So, it is a company town. Past the mine is a three track stub yard with a few more industries that also can be switched. From listening to your video I think I got it right this time. Yes, it is point to point, with a lot of shuffling back and forth, but there is the opportunity to expand it on narrow shelves to go around the room if I want. Some place to go. Never say never or always in railroading. Some where out there exists a prototype that can prove one wrong. The real railroad I model after as a guide didn't have an interchange track. It was an isolated railroad. There were two yards at the bottom of the mountain separated by a shallow river. Standard gauge on one side and narrow gauge on the other. A single standard gauge track came across to the narrow gauge side. There was passenger station, long wooden dock between the narrow gauge and the standard gauge. There was a berm that raised the narrow gauge level with the standard gauge. Man power was cheap then. Goods were moved across the dock between the two. Further back past the dock the tracks came very close so heavy loads could be moved between the standard gauge and narrow gauge boxcars. For extra heavy loads there was a self powered Pony Crane that could lift the loads between the gondolas and flatcars. Coming down from the company mining town up on the mountain were flatcar loads of 500 pound blocks of copper, heading for the big smelter in El Paso. Two blocks per car. Going up the mountain were mine stulls, coal for the smelter, supplies for the company store and workers. It was also a tourist railroad. This railroad climbed a gulch up the mountain and had five loops to gain elevation. One loop through a tunnel and four loops on trestles, so the train passed over itself 5 times on steep grades. I wish I had a space to model all those loops.
16:15 would expect to see a an extra switch and short dead-end siding just below the Grain Silo road crossing-to protect the mainline from runaways (and stash the shunting tractor). Or would the US arrangement just have a derailer here?
You know what is crazy about railroads nowadays is that we “work off the main” at so many small industries, regardless of how much it delays our mainline trains. Even though I still see abandoned track where it would have been beneficial to leave it intact for safety or switching like you suggested.
Hi DJ, all good observations & suggestions! I am a bit surprised you didn't mention staging tho... Correct me if I'm wrong but, IMO trains running in circles (no matter HOW BIG those circles are) without any feeling of "going somewhere" is going to get tiring - as it's not providing that sense of real operations. Also, given the dia of that peninsula, it seems to me this is HO scale - otherwise those are some tremendous radii for N jammed right against the edge! Lol. Given that he's resigned to 2 ft wide aisles due to that long 4 ft wide area at the top, I would extend Kansas City into a 2nd return loop - thereby eliminating the duck under/lift out/swing bridge, which will also get old right quick! (Seems to me, if one has the room to do so, these should be avoided if at all possible - and with 12 ft of width there, he does.) That would then call for reducing the "brewery" area to a bare min of perhaps a 6 in wide shelf with building flats - and call it a branch. Going loop to loop then opens up the possibility for making the loops into helices - leading to lower level staging connecting them, and giving the RR some purpose. As well as still providing continuous running of trains when desired for display or railfanning... Heck, if the elevations are chosen carefully, a fair amount of that lower level could even be sceniced - thus adding considerable mainline length! Well that's my 2 cents, fwiw...
Lots of memories but even with a 4’x8’ layout it’s hard to get it all in. Great advice, good suggestions and I changed some aspects because of you and all your videos. Thanks!
Great video, DJ. One additional suggestion I would make is to remove that narrow side room from the main layout. That space could be better utilized for 1) staging / live interchange operations, 2) a workshop, and / or 3) a branch line or shortline. A fourth option would depend on ceiling heights - I get the feeling we're in the attic / sloped ceiling 2nd floor space - but in space allows, that could eventually house a helix for double decking the layout in the future - provisioning for future expansion now does not (usually) add any significant costs to single deck construction...... at least that's what I'm telling myself as I contemplate a 20x30 by 2 [or 3] deck basement empire. 🤔
Very interesting to see your analysis and then your proposals. It's a really interesting video to make - please will you reconsider making more of these? Thank you
Great video 👍With some very sound advice, don’t have track or industries just for the sake of having loads of track and numerous industries with no connection to anything else. When I get to build my layout I will be paying close attention to these tips.
I've always found it intriguing that you work for a class 1, yet you are still into model railroading and trains in general. I've not meant anybody at the railroad that is into trains. Most seem to hate them in fact. Admittedly, steam locomotives are the only thing that interest me anymore. CSX sent me updates on jobs I'd applied to with them almost 2 years ago. I found that pretty amusing.
Great video, glad to see the honesty. My first thought was also "how do you turn an engine?" Also what is your take on the pros and cons of putting the yard on the wall side of the main like this instead of the other way around so the switches would be more accessible.
Since watching your videos on how a real railraod operates, I've been able to cut the extra space I would need with a typical track plan. Now I'm considering a "wye" at one end(like they have in Tampa), then over to a helix?, and on to another end point. Is it proto typical to use a turntable to turn an engine around for a consist headed in the other direction?
Not for diesels. We sometimes go weeks with 2 engines facing same direction on locals. Not turning them until they go for their inspection in Cumberland Maryland
@@djstrains Were tank engines a thing on mainlines in the USA? Afaik these were usually allowed the same speed in both directions (at least in Germany together with the Baureihe 50 tender locomotive) so they would work without turntables or wyes.
Another great vid. Anyone who is serious about their modelling should try to find the book, "The Railroad- What It Is, What It Does", by John Armstrong. Out of print for quite some time. If you come across it, think seriously about grabbing it.
About pulling the tracks away from the edge ... not only does that help with the "Trains running through your scenery" like you noted...it also PROTECTS YOUR INVESTMENT! A de-rail, and you train could be falling 4 feet to its death! Also gives you some wiggle room with stuff in general (like turning around and having your shirt snag something..or that clipboard you are holding, etc...) I would rather take out a tree with my clipboard then a 100+ dollar loco !!! (Trains on the edge and no interchange track are my two big pet-peeves for layout designs)
I’d put yard office, ash pit, et al n depot in lower section where coal/brewery operations currently are. Place the coal operation where depot is now…place coal loader in that empty corner so per your suggestion, coal train runs through loader bldg.
I'm thinking about including coal trains in my layout I'm planning. Actually loading and unloading cars is (as said in the video) time consuming and I think also difficult to model and can be messy. So I'll leave it away for now. I thought about having a circle with a hidden part and having the same train two times: Full and empty. And send them in turns in the opposite direction. If it's possible to have a scenic divider on the layout in this video, it could be possible to suggest a mine and/or an unloading facility (port or power plant) as photo on the backdrop and some structures where the train just disappears behind.
8:35 I totally hear your coal mine comments for a modern-era layout, but this is for the 1950s and I'm not sure they apply. There were a lot of smaller mines in those days. Stub-ended loaders were pretty common in the UK; I don't see why they wouldn't have been in the US, also.
I'm in Southern IL. We had a very active coal mine area. They had a 4 track, stub end loader. I am guessing there was 50 car length's on either side of the tipple.
The track plan looks like at would work for the 1920s-1940s era. The eastern coal mines of that time had small short stub-ended tracks with a run-a-round for the loco.
Hey DJ I have a dumb question how do you read elevations on track plans ? Do you have a video on plan reading? This was a great video you explain things so well in your videos. Thank you
There is usually a number in a box [4] that shows elevation in inches over baseline [0] -- top of the lowest rails/benchwork -- or a larger number [42] above floor. Grades are usually stipulated in percent [rise-over-run] at the top and/or bottom. "2.5% up --->"
I think he needed to pick out what he wanted in industries before his track plan. Also it helps if you have a general part of the country you are trying to mimic. Another thing is to imagine landscape before just laying a bunch of track. The most important thing the Railroad is CHEAP .... the less track and use of one track for more than one thing the better.
Great video. Recently on an Amtrak cab video, Pgh to Cumberland, I noticed auto racks on a siding and wondered why are they there. Certainly no large town or auto facility that would require them to be unloaded there.
I remember a dead end siding outside of Wilcox AZ that had about 70 diesel locomotives parked there as storage. They were there for about 2 years then they were all gone. Now it’s just an empty dead end siding. Sometimes a car can get isolated on a siding and the connecting track ripped up for whatever reason.
If you are going for a more modern layout, try sneaking in some old roadbed and fence lines that show where some old track used to be. Even buildings that curved to fit around an old siding for an industry that is not there. If you ever go onto google maps you can find lots of old track lines and empty roadbeds that show where rail is no longer needed.
Thanks for the video. There is a lot wrong with that design. There is a good video covering what goes on inside a brewery here: ruclips.net/video/Dlcj4gWM5Sk/видео.html
I build an [H.O. on a(4'x8') I had Too Many turnouts ,track was too close to the edge. One of my Detailed Athern GP 60, hit the concrete floor ,it was damaged☹🥵
on the yard if he's doing steam he missed the water tower! and in the yard there's no maintenance for either the cars or tracks! a yard of any size will have a car shop and some track supply's (tie pile rail stack shop building etc!) around it! and an oddball car on it doesn't hurt DJ afterall how many cars get out with a hotbox flag every week? an autorack with a car crew staged around it!
The water tower is there it's farther to the right on the plans. I would say he should turn the engine house slightly eliminate the separate coal and ash track, move the coaling tower and ash pit try to get them in line with the the service building. Or hell you might be able to fit it in in between the service building and the water tower? Perhaps instead of a dedicated water tower track side build a column instead and move the tank somewhere else. What do you think?
My take is this is for continuous running varnish and time freights. The industries and yards are more for scenery -- to park cool rolling stock, cabooses, and locomotives -- than for operation.
@@Rubberduck055 i didn't see it and i've seen combined coaling towers and watering set ups before where the tank to it was? and norfolk and western had the ash pit on the same track as the coaling tower in Rowanoke and it also ran straight into the roundhouse with the lube shack on a track next to it they'd run a returning engine on to the ash pit then down to the coal tower/inspection pit top up the coal and water then to the roundhouse if no major repairs were needed they'd turn her around and throw the switch to the lube shack grease her up and spot her for redispatch!
Rule number 1 for model railroaders just starting out. DO NOT BITE OFF MORE THAN YOU CAN CHEW. And this applies to almost any hobby or activity. Starting to build ship models. Start small. Jot with a fully rigged model of Constitution or Victory. RC planes. Forget that 1/4 scale Corsair. Fly fishing. Aviod streams lined with trees. In fact for model railroaders l would recommend that they do not build anything permanent like scenery etc when starting out.
I agree with this video entirely. What irks me is circular layouts... trains don't go in circles. I'm designing mine point to point, with a staging yard (out of scene) at each end, modern power, typical 2000s era BN and UP power. 6 table legs, upper and lower shelf. Train leaves staging into an industrial park on lower leg one and 2 with a port city and steel mill on 3. 4 will leave the city and go into the cascades, climb up through leg 5, 6 and come back on the upper shelf. Little logging, a coal flood loader in the mountains, then break into the rolling hills, produce co-op and a grain elevator, before entering a town on upper leg 2 where a large paper mill sits, one upper leg one, another yard with an intermodal transload facility, before disappearing to upper staging. As I want to run big trains, I ideally would like to go N scale which would get me 13.5 scale miles end to end but only 7.2 scale miles in HO. HO tends to be more detailed and offer more options from what I've seen. What is also nice is that I can start with lower leg one in the Industrial park and have a fully operational layout that I can switch from the UP yard in a year vs. Building the whole thing at once and not enjoy it for 10 years or more. Another point is I can also run through trains to destinations out of scene (inland) for example: an intermodal train might load at port and go to Chicago (staging). Or we can do what BNSF is planning in Barstow, building an intermodal transload facility, where they load all containers onto a train in LA and move them to Barstow to sort, alleviating congestion. Just some thoughts and things I'm going to do.
Someone else's layout shouldn't irk you if they are happy with it. Most people have limited space and would like at least a basic line to run trains without having to switch and turn around. For example, I would venture to guess that shelf switching layouts running at minimum speed interest a very small percentage of people. I think a lot of beginner hobbyists get turned off by the negativity and all the folks who only want to throw around the word "prototypical." As they get into the hobby, they can make their layouts more realistic, sophisticated and detailed. I would also guess that most people would like to run a variety of trains and aren't worried about "prototype" or "era."
A circle can be useful for sending full and empty trains through the scenery in opposite directions. If a part of it is covered and used as staging or fiddle yard, it's both possible to use it as two seperate destinations, full/empty trains or as continuous track to check rolling stock, adjust decoder settings etc.
Timesaver can be built in 2' x 5' (HO). With the right industries, it can take 5 different types of rolling stock convincingly (especially 1960s and earlier) and doesn't scream, "TIMESAVER!!!" I use the "flattened" version from the ancient "HO Model Railroading Handbook" shown on p. 155 and explained on p. 157. The only difference I make is the short, single-car set-out track is off a wye switch to go under overhead silos. [All of John Allen's switches were wyes, cutting down necessary length of the module.]
Where you trying to say trackmobile or wheel loader at the grain silos? You say conductor all the time. Is there not a brakeman anymore? I know there was an engineer, a fireman, a brakeman or 2, and a conductor years ago that dropped down to I thought was an engineer, a brakeman, and a conductor on local switchers now. Does the conductor do both his job and the job of a brakeman now? You work for CSX which I dont see. NS is what I'm used to seeing all the time. I think the branchline that comes by my house has both a conductor and brakeman, an engineer ofcourse too so I'm guessing CSX might be different than NS. It could be there's only a conductor and engineer now on NS because I've not paid attention lately. It's been awhile since I've railfan. When did they do away with the brakeman if they have? Neat video. 👍
@@williambryant5946 I live at the interchange between NS and the RSR, both locals are two person crews, haven't had a Brakeman in oh probably 10 years or more.
@@cp368productions2 Yeah it's been around 15 years since I've paid attention to crew size or railfaned or kept up with real railroading. I thought I'd heard something about it some years back but wasn't sure if I'd heard it correctly. RSR?
13:20 - industry in nowhere. Reminds me of the new hospital built outside Pembury, near Tunbridge Wells, Kent, England, around 2011. No thought of where staff lived or travelled from, no shops, nothing to do in break times or buy stuff on way home. Disastrous. They couldn't get staff for it.
So true about old Atlas track plan. They go back in an era of 4 X 8 layout with not so many ready to run equipment. With those snap tracks it was so easy to make spaghetti bowl of tracks. Layout´s real estate is always scarce. Here why not use multi level plan ? Plenty of room for scenery, cities etc... too short for a second level not too steep grade or for an helix ? You can use a 4´ of straight track, like an elevator and change level. Not hard to do. Just remember to have it at right level or with current cutter. Choosing the right era makes senses. I see so much modern 4 400 hp locos on layouts it´s crazy. My neighbor railway use 4 of them on 200 cars potash train or roughly 26 000 tons !! Not a GE, 6 cars behind a DPU then an other 6 cars. Except if you modeled like Mount Washington rack track, it´s ridiculous. Modern 89´ auto rack or COFC should be replaced by 40´ cars on tight curve. If you are in the 60´ or before, cars were mostly 40 footers. What looks better, those giant 2 locos and 12 cars or a single first generation loco pulling 28 cars ? Almost same lenght... But, it´s your dream world...
First, I want to thank DJ for such an incredible insightful and mind bending video! He is spot on! Second, I want to thank everyone who has/will comment. I have read every single comment this eve/am as it's great for feedback, insights and to give all of us modelers time to process such a well done video and show warts etc with layout design. There are a multitude of facets anyone can take from such a clearly articulated and logically presented video. I personally will keep monitoring this thread as I for one am learning much more with every passing day as I create what I will call 'first real layout'. Wonderful video and comments by all. As they say 'YMMV' Your Mileage May Vary! Love the channel and folks contributing to the greater good of the hobby! Happy Modeling to One and All!
After working in the brewery for 32 years rail traffic in a major brewery is big. We usually got 5 grain cars of malted barley every day and we had about 4 or 5 tank cars with corn syrup and liquid dextrose every day. Usually shipped 12 box cars of beer per day lots of switching. And we would get 6 to 8 coal cars twice a week.
We had lots of traffic. One day I saw the crew leave the brewery with one GP 30 pulling on 67 cars ! I rode in the engine a few times, I immediately could feel the coupler slack running out even on a string of 10 or 12 cars. The engineers were very good at working the throttle when they had wheel slipping on a big load. When I was working in the grain silo I got to respond grain cars over the unloading pit with a track mobile. Loved it.
Why did your brewery need coal?
@@ellisjackson336 we had coal fired boilers in the powerhouse. Later switched to either natural gas or fuel oil.
Your point about starting small is important. The thing people forget about when planning their basement empire is that you also have to maintain it once it is built. Cleaning track takes time, as does dusting and general maintenance - parts might break off or glue gives way over time, not to mention locomotive and rolling stock maintenance. The bigger the layout, the more time devoted to keeping it running. You might build the giant empire of your dreams, but you might find yourself a full-time maintenance person instead of operating it. Start small so you can learn what you can handle and build from there. Great video with lots of great insights. Well done.
DJ in the 50's the coal mines were like that.
There are several layouts that model coal mining in that era, how they ran is they dropped off cars and they were loaded before the next train. Then the coal cars from each mine were brought to a central yard and combined into longer trains for larger customers or sent to a classification yard for shipment to smaller customers like coal bins, small power plants, etc.
Yeah, old school coal mines were usually stub layouts, but they still didn't look like the one on this trackplan. there should be a lot of track beyond the loading structure for storing cars waiting to be loaded, and what is basically a small storage yard in front of it of loaded cars track sorted by coal grade. As with most things, Armstrong has a good diagram of various levels of selective compression of such a mine
Thanks for another great video from an engineer’s viewpoint. As “painful” as it it is, you diplomatically addressed the issue most of us face in modeling railroads: “Do I want to do toy trains, prototypical trains, or a mix?” We each have to decide what we want to pursue without “judging” ourselves or others. :) This video was an excellent exercise in how to move from running in a long loop to a more realistic approach. Thanks again for your insights.
I used to work with a former UP conductor that worked in KCK. This was a gold mine for me since I am modeling the MP in KC 1961. I would ask him various questions -- probably much to his annoyance.
One day, I asked him about runaround moves. Whether or not it was true they avoided them and worked switches as trailing points out and back.
He gave me a strange look. "We just took it to the wye." He made a sweeping gesture like an orchestra conductor in 3/4 time. "Woop. Woop. Woop. Then worked the industries."
It was like a whole new world opened up. I already had a wye in my track plan between the yard and city proper, but I had placed it more to facilitate trains coming in and out of the stub yard. The fact it would be integral to the entire switching scheme really opened up the track plan.
I removed tracks that otherwise had to be left available for runaround moves which translated into 4" more depth for larger "railroad worthy" structures, turning those into second loading tracks (through the boxcars on the adjacent warehouse tracks) to double the operational capacity, or allowing room for forced perspective background city flats. On other layouts, this might be 4" more for foreground scenery, but I already use buildings between the aisle and the rails to create visual breaks and mini-shadow-box scenes. Forcing the viewer to view from the angles I want them to see the layout from helps make it look bigger, too.
Eliminating the "other" set of switches on the various runarounds saves money and allows an extra 12" of siding length (in HO) -- which, again, translates into more of a big city feel.
My advice to anyone modeling the city -- or who has a large city -- on their layout is to incorporate a wye. The easiest way is to have an oval form two of the tail tracks (so train length and long tail tracks are less an issue) with the industrial section on the third tail (think John Olson's Jerome & Southwestern with the Back Alley & Wharf extension if you go back to 1981....).
As for the layout in the video, it appears to be meant for continuous running mainline. The industries, yards, and "cities" appear more for parking cool rolling stock (like MoW equipment and extra locomotives in the yard) while varnish and time freights hammer the high iron. More as scenic elements than actually part of an operations scheme. I may be wrong, but that's how it looks.
I believe you forgot the question was a layout in the 1940 & 1950. The coal mine would have been 4-5 car tracks. Not today 100 unit trains 18:32
@@petesilcox4102 I wasn't really worried about the coal mine or any other industry as I assessed the purpose of the layout (the way it will please the owner). Any industry/industrial area is going to be representational. 1 car = 5 cars or such. After classification (and a good conductor as you work the line if the yardmaster doesn't block cars during makeup), you're switching industries in blocks of cars. At that point on the model, 1 car can represent 10.
In other responses, I have mentioned that commodities moved in blocks of cars in mixed freights. TOFC, coal, meat, produce, whatever. Unit trains weren't really the modus operandi until the 70s give or take. Sure there were seasonal produce or meat trains but that was the exception, not the rule in this era. So I don't think I missed anything.
My observation is that Rock Island, IL, and Kansas City are two "major" yards on a basement empire with 10-12 industries total. And, what? 10 feet of separation with no industry in between? I was also looking at the Depot in Colorado Springs, CO, being a focal point along with the peninsula with trestles being the first thing the visitor should see. And then there is the continuous-run bridge across the entrance rather than a point-to-point design or dog bone. All that tells me the railroad is designed to "run" more than "operate" -- which is fine.
I think beyond era, I would want to know things like how many people were going to operate a session and the prototype railroad. Rock Island is my best guess. But most importantly, do you want operations or watch trains run? The hobby is big enough to fulfill whatever makes the owner happy. Even though I love operations, it's quite relaxing just to let the trains run, too.
I also think the eastern terminus should be on one side of the door and the western terminus on the other. As it is, the middle point is at the door and there is random countryside between IA and CO. The other option is that somehow CO is between IA and KC. Or that it's a wishbone line like the C&EI with a line south from RI to KC and a line west from RI through IA to CO.
Personally, I would make a point-to-point layout with Colorado Springs opposite side of the entry from where KC is, move Rock Island to where KC is and put KC in the alcove. You can leave the continuous run across the entrance. And operate it either as point-to-point (not utilizing the bridge) or continuous run. If the prototype is the RI, you can use the joint RI/UP Depot in KCK (photos online) instead of KC Union Station to represent KC and, by moving Springs further down the line, allow your passenger trains to stretch their legs between (and at) stations. It also allows space for intermediate "small towns" between the big cities to generate traffic to give the yards a purpose. Again, whether those industries generate 1 carload or 5 or 20 logistically doesn't matter because a single car represents a block of cars with the same move. At that point, how many cars an industry track holds becomes a matter of space, aesthetics, and suspension of disbelief.
One of my pet peeves are industries such as grain elevators without extended sidings for the loaded cars to be moved down to fill the next empty. You can have a three car siding, but if there's no track beyond the fill chute, you can only load 1 car. As such, to "realistically" be able to fill 3 boxcars (in 1950) with grain, your siding would have to have room for two cars between the clearance point of the switch and the chute, 1 car at the chute, and extend 2 cars past the chute.
But you don't always see that on model railroads because there's a willing suspension of disbelief. Same with the coal mine. It could hold 1 car and I would be fine with it.
But that's me and my interests.
Okay, this is the BEST advice on RUclips! Let's all face it, you can't beat the knowledge base that a REAL locomotive engineer that also is into model railroading has.
Hi DJ. I understand your thinking on this layout. I don’t like switching. But sure like watching my trains run circles. This hobby has something for everyone.
Hey DJ! I just found your channel this week and have been watching a ton of your videos, I love the content! I’ve been into real and model trains my whole life and I recently started researching scale modeling as something to do with my sons. My grandparents lived on the Cleveland Line through Ravenna, OH and I spent many hours watching Conrail trains with my dad. I really appreciate your real engineer tips. I also love your drone videos. I am also a drone pilot and I have family in Johnstown, I went to school at Duquesne in Pittsburgh, and my in-laws live in Trafford, so I recognize many of the locations. Anyway, long way of saying: I love what you’re doing! Stay safe!
Do more of these! I like hearing your thought process and reading the discussions
Sounds good
I really like layouts that are designed by people that work on the real railroads. The layouts always look real to me. Thanks for the video.
Glad you like them!
But the layouts have to be designed to fit the era they represent. And the appropriate locomotives and rolling stock. How many modelers have bought Big Boys when they have a small layout with tight curves? I think the only time the Big Boys saw the Midwest was when it was delivered, moved to a museum or on one of the UPs public relations tours. Small layout with tight curves and short turnouts. Small locomotives and short cars. 50 footers max. The same applies to scenery. I mean who doesn't like mountains. The surveyors and engineers who actually built the rail network we have hated grades and tunnels. Grades, tunnels and bridges were only built when absolutely required. Of course some of the signature scenes in North American railroading were built to reduce operating costs while dealing with changes in elevation. Tehachapi, Old Fort and Horseshoe come to mind.
Some really great advice. I see what you mean. Like the idea of less is more thing like you say to think like a real railroad is great advice . Thank for your insight 👍
Thank you to both the layout contributor and DJ. You did such a good job of taking theory and applying it operational continuity. Very grateful to the both of you.
Glad you enjoyed it!
Thank you, i am 69 yo Starting my Decond RR after 30 yrs HO scale. Having fun expanding ides from what I once had on halg the space zi have now. Thinking about cars just as much as rail. THANK YOU KINGSTON ON. Much Steam History here.
Interesting. Thanks for sharing. I enjoyed your comments on why you need a town, even though I am over seeing your typical main street modeled. I’ll just use my imagination for the town starting just off the table.
Awesome analysis and redraw!
If you put track right to the edge of the board, the trains are going to throw themselves over the side. It's a law of nature.
HA!
Been there done that, and had to repair some fragile parts such as safety valves and whistles along the way, great tip btw
Hi DJ, your friend must be a Saint - Your analysis was brutal AND _so helpful!_ It's already getting me to re-think some things. Your mentioning that you all use the mainline as you're switching gives me more flexibility and helps me feel more "proto" when I do it (because I do it anyway 😉). Blessings & Joy Everyone! 😌💜
Great tips 👍! I heard that as a model railroader [hobbyist] that you should decide whether you want the THEME of your layout to be a particular INDUSTRY, or PASSENGER service or perhaps BOTH.
What a Railroader needs to study is how the industry for their RAILROAD LAYOUT is REALISTICALLY set up.
Your tips on the RAIL YARD are very important because that is where the starting point should be. Thanks for all of the realistic pointers to make a Model Railroad make sense.
Thanks DJ. I totally agree with not wanting to see all the track. Scenic breaks definitely give the illusion of a larger railroad. My first layout when I was 10 had all those mistakes. At 34 with a small basement. Starting with a steam era switching layout to build up my skills.
I like to listen and see your comments related to layouts with a realistic operation. Thanks for sharing your comments in a schematic form.
Glad you like them!
Those books were funny! I will say that practices of railroads in the 50s were quite a bit different, but the basic ideas of convenience that you mentioned are the same. If anything, long sidings should extend past the industry so they can pull cars forward or roll them back with a car mover pole, especially then. Steam servicing would need to be located so that the engine rolls over the ash pit, through the coaling tower, and into engine houses. The pre-unit train days, might allow you to drop a hopper or two off at the back of the brewery as coal powered the 1950s world. This might justify a long siding, hoppers at the back, box cars at the front. You mentioned the tracks leading off to the outside world. In the midwest we had lots of diamonds with other railroads. Good thing to add and makes a perfect place for interlocking towers.
Great video. I got some good info from this. I am building a layout now. I actually started redoing part of it. When I looked at one area it made no sense so I ripped that section up . Good thing I only had everything just tacked down
This was a hilarious video... I was tearing up. DJ ripped this layout up oneside and down the other. I know he was just giving an honest take. Unintentionally funny
I haven't read all the comments and unless I missed it somewhere in the video, I see one glaring error that hasn't been mentioned. As this is supposed to be a steam era layout it needs a way to turn locomotives, preferably near the yard. There is going to have to be a turntable or wye worked into the design somewhere.
Agree.
I was a big fan of those Atlas Track Planning books and they worked -- I bought far more track than I needed (fortunately it was cheap in the old days -- not so today!). Great video -- I learned a lot.
I'm really glad I watched this, twice so far. It's made me re-think several aspects of a layout I'm planning. Thank you!
Glad it was helpful!
Hey DJ, I think I saw you at the Connellsville McDonald's a couple weeks ago. But I wasn't sure, so I didn't say anything. Thanks for another great video 👍
negative. I havent been in a McDonalds in a long time.
@@djstrains
Well, that's good. It's horrible stuff.
Several things stand out to me: 1. Where do you turn the steam engines around? There's no wye or turntable (which takes up a lot of space in both cases, but either/or would be present in a layout depicting the late steam/transition era). 2. The scope of the layout is FAR too big for the space available, which is why it seems to be too much. There would be plenty of railroad action around Rock Island or KC alone, much less the need to run across multiple states. It seems to me you could model Rock Island, IL, and maybe cross the Mississippi River into Davenport, IA, and that be more than enough to fill the space.
Looking at the satellite view, there seems like this was an area served by a LOT of rail, and the landscape has certainly changed over the decades, but the roads and building shapes are the tell. Crescent Rail Bridge leads into a wye, which gives you a place to turn steam locomotives. The west leg then goes into a yard and industrial area - including a HUGE Purina animal food plant that has been there for decades.
I would look at expanding/moving the yard ladder around the corner into the space for "Exira, IA", and have a ladder at the right end, then compressing space and have the wye lead into the corner of the layout - which puts it adjacent to the yard and a prototypical position. Spread industries around the walls and then represent Rock Island along the wall to the left of the room entry. The bridge over the Mississippi River could be the bridge over the entry.
A 2-3 track yard could represent a yard along 5th Avenue at Abbey Station (your Passenger connection) and the peninsula could represent the Rock Island Arsenal. This could be an impressive modeling opportunity that doesn't take up as much space as the planned bubble, and thus creates more aisle for operators.
The R.I. yard could be an interchange between two railroads, or just shunting locals back and forth between the two yards to serve local industries (such as Purina on one side and the Arsenal on the other). But then there could be a 2 or 3 track hidden staging yard (behind low-relief buildings or a skyboard) along the wall and around the corner behind Rock Island, giving you "off-layout" origins/destinations for trains.
Narrowing the gap along the left wall would allow for a scenic transition between the two areas.
I think this plan would focus the scope much more and make for a fun operating layout, while still having continuous running. Further, it would create two places to work back and forth between, add "off-layout" staging, and allow for a prototype-based layout that would be something to really talk about.
But that's my unsolicited two cents' worth. I hope whatever was decided makes the owner happy, because in the end that's all that matters. Thanks for sharing, DJ.
I lived in the Quad Cities in the 1970's. The place of a part time job was, in fact, located adjacent to the elevated portion of the RI line in downtown Davenport. While my personal modeling interests lie elsewhere, I find find your ideas very intriguing and believe they'd make a good starting point for a layout design.
I often find myself looking at model railroads and thinking "Why would the real railroad done that." The railroad is always going to take the easiest/cheapest option when making track (or anything else). That comes back to less is more concept. I am in the middle of building a basement empire, and I have several long stretches with nothing but a main and scenery. It also makes life easier when you go to wire the layout.
Brewery should have 2 tracks one inbound for grain cars and one from shipping bottling/canning building outbound boxcars to grocery warehouses can also have 3 track for tank cars of finished beer to offsite bottling plant
That could all be on one track depending on how the brewery is set up.
DJ, very good. One other thing needed is if they are running steam there needs to be a turntable or wye to turn the locos around.
"Atlas trackplanning books were designed to sell track" EXACTLY. I wish more people realized this.
Something you said really stuck out, about adding a parking lot. Like people out all these businesses on a layout and hotels and things like that and none of them ever have parking lots. It baffles me, especially when the modelers are sticklers for real world accuracy.
working on that for a future video
My opinion is, this person should spend the money on a house that allows for a better track plan. 😂If this was a LEGO train layout... this person is going to save a lot of money just buying the LEGO track and not those expensive Modulars!
Thanks for advice! Just looked at my small layout and realized--I need to add an interchange! Unfortunately, I will have to temporarily tear up some track and add an atlas super switch--but I think it will solve my operational dilemma and make my layout more realistic. Once my garage is warmer for wet glue application, I will tackle it (54 degrees currently). Now I just need to figure out where to put the gas station and houses in my fictional town. Thanks!
Glad it was helpful!
You are always so spot on
Thank You Sir
DJ ….. you always make common sense when making videos especially coming from a person who does it for real !! Thank you for all of you advice 👍😊
Thank you for the great thoughts. I can see some of the same "errors" (or pet peeves) in some of the designs I've been messing with - part of the reason I have been playing with ideas for a few years while I get my space ready for the benchwork. Looks like I've got some more redesigning to do!
Glad it was helpful!
Great video, DJ! I love steam as much as anyone, but it makes some demands on a layout. How do you turn the darn thing around? If you are truly committed to steam, you have to make room for a wye or turntable.
Lots of good info DJ and the revision is pretty spot on! Man if you saw my track plan, you'd probably freak out due to how much track I've put in there between having an open-ended classification yard and two stub ended interchange yards. I also wanted to add a switching puzzle at one area with a few industries that I guess you could also say it has a 2 track interchange yard as well. My classification yard has 7 tracks which one will be for arrivals and the other 6 are for 6 different trains that can depart from that yard. Needless to say, I've learned a lot from your videos and it does help to get someone's perspective who actually works on something that we model. - Jason
As always you give us food for thought, having seen railroads from the cab you are able to look outside the box a lot easier than we do. I agree with slot of what you said, I am getting ready to start my first personal layout ( I have been a member of several clubs and helped others build their layouts), to avoid the pitfall of biting of too much, I have decided to model a small section which is a yard and interchange with hand laid track in N Scale that way I will be able to do some switching while working on other sections, thanks for the idea
Some great tips from a actual engineer, who would have thought? Too bad you don’t have the time for analyzing track plans because it surely would be a of extreme interest to a large audience. Thanks for doing this.
Take a look at any good satellite mapping of the area you want to model. You will learn more in a day of railfanning once you fully understand the track plan.
I'm just starting out, built l-girder base and thought, wait, I need a plan, so downloaded xtrackcad to see what I can come up with.
Anyway this video is timely to help me think better in design.
This is the best channel for model railroading ideas. Really appreciated!
Wow, thanks!
22.40 minutes of useful ,concise,entertaining video. Inspirational.
I sincerely appreciate that!
Great input as always👍🚂🇨🇦🇺🇲🚃🚃🚃🚃🙋
Whenever I get cracking on a layout, I'll be using "my" Milwaukee Road (and N&W, D&H, LV, RDG, WM, GM&O and NYNH&H) for inspiration....
Excellent stuff! 👍🏻👌🏻👏🏻😎
Dam! My layout sucks now😂😂😂😂😂 to late now I’ll make it work. Thanks to to DJ it will be better next time.
Great video great information
Glad it was helpful!
I just wish you would write a book on this subject i would be first in the cue. Great informative video.
Will start tomorrow morning actually. Will try to have some copies for Saturday train show and then possibly a ebook.
It would be based upon areas I work
I grew up in the Midwest and lived a good part of my life there. I'm unaware of any car float operating in the region. There are barge terminals on the Missouri and Mississippi Rivers, but those are for loading bulk commodities and not railcar ferry operations. I've been in Kansas City where there are many bridges, but no car ferry. Bridges are much more efficent than ferries for crossing the rivers in KC.
Jerry, Mopac had a car float operation on the Mississippi River between Mississippi and Arkansas. The IC had a similar operation between Illinois and Kentucky near where the Ohio River flows into the Mississippi.
@@garymccullah1143 OK but that's 350 miles from Kansas City as the crow flies, and a lot farther as the barge sails.
There was also a car ferry operation on MP / ex Missouri-Illinois Railroad at Ste Genevieve, MO (south of St Louis) and Illinois - Kellogg, IL I want to say. Saint Gen, as it's called, is a lovely little town with historic French colonial era restored structures, and a large open pit lime mine near the former car ferry site. There's still an automobile ferry operation on the old railroad site, too.
This is an exception & not often seen but there is a rail line near by that is quite long, off the main line, but you can see all the businesses that have failed and closed except for a few along the way and at the very end. When a local comes down the line there is a caboose where the conductor rides. There is a big old GE plant that went out of business, they had a trash conversion plant to produce steam that got shutdown, there is a tire production plant that still uses occasional rail service, and there is a mile long stretch where the first half still has occasional train service but the last half mile has been converted into a greenway. But NS is still replacing ties & I can’t imagine they are doing the maintenance unless NS is making money. But off this line the businesses are either extremely close by or back up to the local line.
When I first got a train set I went to the local hobby shop and took all I “needed” to the front counter and the owner told me to put half of it back as he wanted a customer not someone who will just quit. My first layout grew in leaps and bounds and by the time I was ready to start running trains in earnest we had to move, such a waste.
I would put a water stand near the coal tower, don’t want to have to run to the opposite end of the yard to fill locomotives engines. Plus since this is basically a 1950ish layout you need to have a caboose for the rear end crew. Also, there were some small coal loaders back in the day, even one car spots for minds that were not located on a railroad that were loaded by trucks.
I have started so many layouts, changed my mind or had a career relocation forced on me that has caused me to have a different space each time. That caused me to start over. What I had previously didn't fit the space I had available. This happened so many times that I have lost count. I have changed scales over the years too. However, each rendition I have built I learned something. This week I tore down another layout. It was good, but I had maximized the layout space I had available to the point my lovely wife referred to it as the elephant in the man cave. The man cave is the only way out of the house to the backyard. I am currently modeling On30 steam in the 1912 time period. My current effort is rising out of the plywood I ripped this week. On my plan I am modeling an Arizona desert town in one layout. One town with switching through the town on an L shaped set of baseboards. 12' x30" and 9' x30". 5 removable boards make up the L shape. I have the railroad structures, two stall engine house, turntable, freight house and passenger station at one end. Then the town structures, dirt roads and a dry gulch. Across the gulch is the big industry, a copper mine. So, it is a company town. Past the mine is a three track stub yard with a few more industries that also can be switched. From listening to your video I think I got it right this time. Yes, it is point to point, with a lot of shuffling back and forth, but there is the opportunity to expand it on narrow shelves to go around the room if I want. Some place to go.
Never say never or always in railroading. Some where out there exists a prototype that can prove one wrong. The real railroad I model after as a guide didn't have an interchange track. It was an isolated railroad. There were two yards at the bottom of the mountain separated by a shallow river. Standard gauge on one side and narrow gauge on the other. A single standard gauge track came across to the narrow gauge side. There was passenger station, long wooden dock between the narrow gauge and the standard gauge. There was a berm that raised the narrow gauge level with the standard gauge. Man power was cheap then. Goods were moved across the dock between the two. Further back past the dock the tracks came very close so heavy loads could be moved between the standard gauge and narrow gauge boxcars. For extra heavy loads there was a self powered Pony Crane that could lift the loads between the gondolas and flatcars. Coming down from the company mining town up on the mountain were flatcar loads of 500 pound blocks of copper, heading for the big smelter in El Paso. Two blocks per car. Going up the mountain were mine stulls, coal for the smelter, supplies for the company store and workers. It was also a tourist railroad. This railroad climbed a gulch up the mountain and had five loops to gain elevation. One loop through a tunnel and four loops on trestles, so the train passed over itself 5 times on steep grades. I wish I had a space to model all those loops.
The part that I understand the least is the shape of the room. What's the 4'x11' space sticking out from the main room?
Dormer for window.
The simple lay-outs are the most Attractive
the one thing i would change is the loop at the bottom,, I would make that a over under loop , bushes, rocky hills, and a river to a pond.
16:15 would expect to see a an extra switch and short dead-end siding just below the Grain Silo road crossing-to protect the mainline from runaways (and stash the shunting tractor). Or would the US arrangement just have a derailer here?
You know what is crazy about railroads nowadays is that we “work off the main” at so many small industries, regardless of how much it delays our mainline trains.
Even though I still see abandoned track where it would have been beneficial to leave it intact for safety or switching like you suggested.
This has given me a lot of food for thought. Thank you.
Glad it was helpful!
Hi DJ, all good observations & suggestions! I am a bit surprised you didn't mention staging tho...
Correct me if I'm wrong but, IMO trains running in circles (no matter HOW BIG those circles are) without any feeling of "going somewhere" is going to get tiring - as it's not providing that sense of real operations.
Also, given the dia of that peninsula, it seems to me this is HO scale - otherwise those are some tremendous radii for N jammed right against the edge! Lol.
Given that he's resigned to 2 ft wide aisles due to that long 4 ft wide area at the top, I would extend Kansas City into a 2nd return loop - thereby eliminating the duck under/lift out/swing bridge, which will also get old right quick! (Seems to me, if one has the room to do so, these should be avoided if at all possible - and with 12 ft of width there, he does.)
That would then call for reducing the "brewery" area to a bare min of perhaps a 6 in wide shelf with building flats - and call it a branch.
Going loop to loop then opens up the possibility for making the loops into helices - leading to lower level staging connecting them, and giving the RR some purpose. As well as still providing continuous running of trains when desired for display or railfanning...
Heck, if the elevations are chosen carefully, a fair amount of that lower level could even be sceniced - thus adding considerable mainline length!
Well that's my 2 cents, fwiw...
Lots of memories but even with a 4’x8’ layout it’s hard to get it all in. Great advice, good suggestions and I changed some aspects because of you and all your videos. Thanks!
Glad it was helpful!
excellent video, great points, looking forward to your future videos
Great video, DJ. One additional suggestion I would make is to remove that narrow side room from the main layout. That space could be better utilized for 1) staging / live interchange operations, 2) a workshop, and / or 3) a branch line or shortline. A fourth option would depend on ceiling heights - I get the feeling we're in the attic / sloped ceiling 2nd floor space - but in space allows, that could eventually house a helix for double decking the layout in the future - provisioning for future expansion now does not (usually) add any significant costs to single deck construction...... at least that's what I'm telling myself as I contemplate a 20x30 by 2 [or 3] deck basement empire. 🤔
Very interesting to see your analysis and then your proposals. It's a really interesting video to make - please will you reconsider making more of these? Thank you
That's the plan!
Great video 👍With some very sound advice, don’t have track or industries just for the sake of having loads of track and numerous industries with no connection to anything else. When I get to build my layout I will be paying close attention to these tips.
Glad it was helpful!
I've always found it intriguing that you work for a class 1, yet you are still into model railroading and trains in general. I've not meant anybody at the railroad that is into trains. Most seem to hate them in fact. Admittedly, steam locomotives are the only thing that interest me anymore. CSX sent me updates on jobs I'd applied to with them almost 2 years ago. I found that pretty amusing.
This was immensely helpful for myself. Thank you for making these videos!
More to come
Flipoing the peninsula to the other side between Eock Island & Exira might create a longer main line run.
Great video, glad to see the honesty. My first thought was also "how do you turn an engine?" Also what is your take on the pros and cons of putting the yard on the wall side of the main like this instead of the other way around so the switches would be more accessible.
I like it
I would put the brewery track to parallel the mainline, then you can have a couple of industries on the spur.
Since watching your videos on how a real railraod operates, I've been able to cut the extra space I would need with a typical track plan. Now I'm considering a "wye" at one end(like they have in Tampa), then over to a helix?, and on to another end point. Is it proto typical to use a turntable to turn an engine around for a consist headed in the other direction?
Not for diesels. We sometimes go weeks with 2 engines facing same direction on locals. Not turning them until they go for their inspection in Cumberland Maryland
@@djstrains Were tank engines a thing on mainlines in the USA? Afaik these were usually allowed the same speed in both directions (at least in Germany together with the Baureihe 50 tender locomotive) so they would work without turntables or wyes.
Another great vid. Anyone who is serious about their modelling should try to find the book, "The Railroad- What It Is, What It Does", by John Armstrong. Out of print for quite some time. If you come across it, think seriously about grabbing it.
About pulling the tracks away from the edge ... not only does that help with the "Trains running through your scenery" like you noted...it also PROTECTS YOUR INVESTMENT! A de-rail, and you train could be falling 4 feet to its death! Also gives you some wiggle room with stuff in general (like turning around and having your shirt snag something..or that clipboard you are holding, etc...) I would rather take out a tree with my clipboard then a 100+ dollar loco !!! (Trains on the edge and no interchange track are my two big pet-peeves for layout designs)
"turning around and having your shirt snag something"
Don't worry -- the aisles are only 2ft wide, so it's impossible to turn around anyway!
Great insights and ideas. Thanks!
I’d put yard office, ash pit, et al n depot in lower section where coal/brewery operations currently are. Place the coal operation where depot is now…place coal loader in that empty corner so per your suggestion, coal train runs through loader bldg.
I'm thinking about including coal trains in my layout I'm planning. Actually loading and unloading cars is (as said in the video) time consuming and I think also difficult to model and can be messy. So I'll leave it away for now.
I thought about having a circle with a hidden part and having the same train two times: Full and empty. And send them in turns in the opposite direction. If it's possible to have a scenic divider on the layout in this video, it could be possible to suggest a mine and/or an unloading facility (port or power plant) as photo on the backdrop and some structures where the train just disappears behind.
8:35 I totally hear your coal mine comments for a modern-era layout, but this is for the 1950s and I'm not sure they apply. There were a lot of smaller mines in those days. Stub-ended loaders were pretty common in the UK; I don't see why they wouldn't have been in the US, also.
I'm in Southern IL. We had a very active coal mine area. They had a 4 track, stub end loader. I am guessing there was 50 car length's on either side of the tipple.
The track plan looks like at would work for the 1920s-1940s era. The eastern coal mines of that time had small short stub-ended tracks with a run-a-round for the loco.
I think even then there should be longer tracks for incoming and outgoing trains, runaround and maybe storage for additional cars.
Hey DJ I have a dumb question how do you read elevations on track plans ? Do you have a video on plan reading? This was a great video you explain things so well in your videos. Thank you
There is usually a number in a box [4] that shows elevation in inches over baseline [0] -- top of the lowest rails/benchwork -- or a larger number [42] above floor. Grades are usually stipulated in percent [rise-over-run] at the top and/or bottom. "2.5% up --->"
@@blindjustice8718 thank you that really help’s appreciate it
I think he needed to pick out what he wanted in industries before his track plan. Also it helps if you have a general part of the country you are trying to mimic. Another thing is to imagine landscape before just laying a bunch of track. The most important thing the Railroad is CHEAP .... the less track and use of one track for more than one thing the better.
correct!
great video and knowledge from you. thankyou
My pleasure!
Any suggestions for a 2x4 foot switching layout?
ruclips.net/video/wak48EEty6Q/видео.html
@@djstrains i suppose I should have figured you already did something about switching and I didn't remember or see it.
Great video. Recently on an Amtrak cab video, Pgh to Cumberland, I noticed auto racks on a siding and wondered why are they there. Certainly no large town or auto facility that would require them to be unloaded there.
Probably in storage until needed. Railroad do not store empties in yards.
Storage.
I remember a dead end siding outside of Wilcox AZ that had about 70 diesel locomotives parked there as storage. They were there for about 2 years then they were all gone. Now it’s just an empty dead end siding. Sometimes a car can get isolated on a siding and the connecting track ripped up for whatever reason.
If you are going for a more modern layout, try sneaking in some old roadbed and fence lines that show where some old track used to be. Even buildings that curved to fit around an old siding for an industry that is not there. If you ever go onto google maps you can find lots of old track lines and empty roadbeds that show where rail is no longer needed.
Thanks for the video. There is a lot wrong with that design. There is a good video covering what goes on inside a brewery here:
ruclips.net/video/Dlcj4gWM5Sk/видео.html
Didn’t see any changes made, just heard oral feedback. On prior videos, you changed the diagram w/hand-drawn lines.😮
There's a bit in the chapter Example starting at 15:49
Interesting thanks for the ideas.
Awesome video, learned a lot.
Glad to hear it!
I build an [H.O. on a(4'x8') I had Too Many turnouts ,track was too close to the edge.
One of my Detailed Athern GP 60, hit the concrete floor ,it was damaged☹🥵
yikes
on the yard if he's doing steam he missed the water tower! and in the yard there's no maintenance for either the cars or tracks! a yard of any size will have a car shop and some track supply's (tie pile rail stack shop building etc!) around it! and an oddball car on it doesn't hurt DJ afterall how many cars get out with a hotbox flag every week? an autorack with a car crew staged around it!
The water tower is there it's farther to the right on the plans. I would say he should turn the engine house slightly eliminate the separate coal and ash track, move the coaling tower and ash pit try to get them in line with the the service building. Or hell you might be able to fit it in in between the service building and the water tower? Perhaps instead of a dedicated water tower track side build a column instead and move the tank somewhere else. What do you think?
My take is this is for continuous running varnish and time freights. The industries and yards are more for scenery -- to park cool rolling stock, cabooses, and locomotives -- than for operation.
@@Rubberduck055 i didn't see it and i've seen combined coaling towers and watering set ups before where the tank to it was? and norfolk and western had the ash pit on the same track as the coaling tower in Rowanoke and it also ran straight into the roundhouse with the lube shack on a track next to it they'd run a returning engine on to the ash pit then down to the coal tower/inspection pit top up the coal and water then to the roundhouse if no major repairs were needed they'd turn her around and throw the switch to the lube shack grease her up and spot her for redispatch!
40 mph into the ash pit...😂. I never even thought of that. Place to get the perspective of a professional. Thank you.
Glad to help
Rule number 1 for model railroaders just starting out. DO NOT BITE OFF MORE THAN YOU CAN CHEW. And this applies to almost any hobby or activity. Starting to build ship models. Start small. Jot with a fully rigged model of Constitution or Victory. RC planes. Forget that 1/4 scale Corsair. Fly fishing. Aviod streams lined with trees.
In fact for model railroaders l would recommend that they do not build anything permanent like scenery etc when starting out.
I agree with this video entirely. What irks me is circular layouts... trains don't go in circles. I'm designing mine point to point, with a staging yard (out of scene) at each end, modern power, typical 2000s era BN and UP power. 6 table legs, upper and lower shelf. Train leaves staging into an industrial park on lower leg one and 2 with a port city and steel mill on 3. 4 will leave the city and go into the cascades, climb up through leg 5, 6 and come back on the upper shelf. Little logging, a coal flood loader in the mountains, then break into the rolling hills, produce co-op and a grain elevator, before entering a town on upper leg 2 where a large paper mill sits, one upper leg one, another yard with an intermodal transload facility, before disappearing to upper staging. As I want to run big trains, I ideally would like to go N scale which would get me 13.5 scale miles end to end but only 7.2 scale miles in HO. HO tends to be more detailed and offer more options from what I've seen. What is also nice is that I can start with lower leg one in the Industrial park and have a fully operational layout that I can switch from the UP yard in a year vs. Building the whole thing at once and not enjoy it for 10 years or more. Another point is I can also run through trains to destinations out of scene (inland) for example: an intermodal train might load at port and go to Chicago (staging). Or we can do what BNSF is planning in Barstow, building an intermodal transload facility, where they load all containers onto a train in LA and move them to Barstow to sort, alleviating congestion. Just some thoughts and things I'm going to do.
Someone else's layout shouldn't irk you if they are happy with it. Most people have limited space and would like at least a basic line to run trains without having to switch and turn around. For example, I would venture to guess that shelf switching layouts running at minimum speed interest a very small percentage of people. I think a lot of beginner hobbyists get turned off by the negativity and all the folks who only want to throw around the word "prototypical." As they get into the hobby, they can make their layouts more realistic, sophisticated and detailed. I would also guess that most people would like to run a variety of trains and aren't worried about "prototype" or "era."
A circle can be useful for sending full and empty trains through the scenery in opposite directions. If a part of it is covered and used as staging or fiddle yard, it's both possible to use it as two seperate destinations, full/empty trains or as continuous track to check rolling stock, adjust decoder settings etc.
4:15 Looking at you, CONNELLSVILLE!!! 😂
Demmler
Good tips, thanks
Glad it was helpful!
hello dj its is randy and i like u video is cool dj thanks friends randy
Hey, thanks
Great insites!
What about a 5-turnout challenge on a (4'x8')
Timesaver can be built in 2' x 5' (HO). With the right industries, it can take 5 different types of rolling stock convincingly (especially 1960s and earlier) and doesn't scream, "TIMESAVER!!!" I use the "flattened" version from the ancient "HO Model Railroading Handbook" shown on p. 155 and explained on p. 157. The only difference I make is the short, single-car set-out track is off a wye switch to go under overhead silos. [All of John Allen's switches were wyes, cutting down necessary length of the module.]
Where you trying to say trackmobile or wheel loader at the grain silos? You say conductor all the time. Is there not a brakeman anymore? I know there was an engineer, a fireman, a brakeman or 2, and a conductor years ago that dropped down to I thought was an engineer, a brakeman, and a conductor on local switchers now. Does the conductor do both his job and the job of a brakeman now? You work for CSX which I dont see. NS is what I'm used to seeing all the time. I think the branchline that comes by my house has both a conductor and brakeman, an engineer ofcourse too so I'm guessing CSX might be different than NS. It could be there's only a conductor and engineer now on NS because I've not paid attention lately. It's been awhile since I've railfan. When did they do away with the brakeman if they have? Neat video. 👍
Brakemen are rare now, it's normally a two person crew. If there is a third it's usually a Conductor Trainee.
@@cp368productions2 Oh ok. I haven't really paid attention to how it changed.
@@williambryant5946 I live at the interchange between NS and the RSR, both locals are two person crews, haven't had a Brakeman in oh probably 10 years or more.
@@cp368productions2 Yeah it's been around 15 years since I've paid attention to crew size or railfaned or kept up with real railroading. I thought I'd heard something about it some years back but wasn't sure if I'd heard it correctly. RSR?
@@williambryant5946 Rochester & Southern
The stub ended coal mine was the first thing I saw lol
I use 3rd planit.
13:20 - industry in nowhere. Reminds me of the new hospital built outside Pembury, near Tunbridge Wells, Kent, England, around 2011. No thought of where staff lived or travelled from, no shops, nothing to do in break times or buy stuff on way home. Disastrous. They couldn't get staff for it.
So true about old Atlas track plan. They go back in an era of 4 X 8 layout with not so many ready to run equipment. With those snap tracks it was so easy to make spaghetti bowl of tracks.
Layout´s real estate is always scarce. Here why not use multi level plan ? Plenty of room for scenery, cities etc... too short for a second level not too steep grade or for an helix ? You can use a 4´ of straight track, like an elevator and change level. Not hard to do. Just remember to have it at right level or with current cutter.
Choosing the right era makes senses. I see so much modern
4 400 hp locos on layouts it´s crazy. My neighbor railway use 4 of them on 200 cars potash train or roughly 26 000 tons !! Not a GE, 6 cars behind a DPU then an other 6 cars. Except if you modeled like Mount Washington rack track, it´s ridiculous. Modern 89´ auto rack or COFC should be replaced by 40´ cars on tight curve. If you are in the 60´ or before, cars were mostly 40 footers. What looks better, those giant 2 locos and 12 cars or a single first generation loco pulling 28 cars ? Almost same lenght...
But, it´s your dream world...