Why Do We Love and Hate Elemental Magic?
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- Опубликовано: 11 июн 2024
- Elemental magic systems are the most common types of magic we see in fantasy - magic enthusiasts love it, but we can all agree they've been a bit overdone at this point.
In today's case study video we'll have a look at how Genshin Impact, a game that seems to seek clichés rather than avoid them, managed to escape the elemental magic systems' three most common mistakes.
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Dear algorithm, please eat those keywords nom nom: magic system, fantasy magic, air water fire earth, elemental magic, how to write a magic system, how to write a ms, worldbuilding, sff, how to write magic, genshin impact worldbuilding, GI visions
Hope you had a great meal!
00:00 how can they be boring?
01:10 first pitfall - same job
02:45 secong pitfall - personality pairings
03:42 third pitfall - weak/strong
04:22 case study
05:43 hard, soft and hybrid magic systems
06:47 how magic works
08:58 magic tied to crafts
12:06 elements collaborating
13:59 applying lessons
15:43 hello, hey there, hi
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Here's the Hybrid Magic System video I mentioned (exploring Hunter x Hunter's system):
• Soft x hard magic syst...
And if you're a magic system enthusiast, I have a full playlist here!
• Magic system melodrama...
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Of course I do not own Genshin Impact, it's a game by Mihoyo:
genshin.hoyoverse.com/en/
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If you wanna help me believe this can be a real future for me, here's my Patreon page. For a small creator such as myself, your encouragement means the world.
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Soundtrack & Imagery:
Mikel - Dark World
Part of the absolutely gorgeous Zelda & Chill
• Zelda & Chill
Also follow @MikelTBE
Jokabi - Forest Temple (feat Mikel)
Jokabi - Fairy Fountain
Jokabi - Kaepora Gaebora
Part of the dream-inducing Chilltendo Deluxe album
• Chilltendo Deluxe
Follow @jokabibeats
The three songs above were a courtesy of @gamechops, an amazing game and music combining project. Music distributed under a CC (attribution) license.
gamechops.com/
Extra bits and bobs of soundtrack by Pixabay:
pixabay.com/music/
AI imagery generated in Midjourney
I do not claim to have made those, they're computer generated and un-artistic - I just needed some fast imagery, else I couldn't easily illustrate my point (I currently have no budget for such interactions, this is a very tiny channel). My current opinion is that 'better for my tiny projects to exist than not, as long as there's no monetary exchange', but I'm still meditating on my opinion on AI art in general
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#magicsystem #hardsoftmagicsystem #genshinimpact #genshinimpactworldbuilding 
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I feel like an alternate solution to the second issue might just be to change the setting?
The clichés are probably due at least in part to how people view the elements in our real world- fire can be uncontrollable, and destructive; water can stop the fire and be calm.
If your setting is on a tiny island constantly buffeted by storms, rough seas, and rain, water isn’t associated with niceness and calm anymore. It’s a powerful unpredictable stormy force. Fire can’t stand up to the torrential downfall outside. It’s not fiery, hot-tempered and destructive- it’s small and precious and warm.
Aptly put!
Kinda like in some folklore, hell is ice and freezing instead of fire and heat
Sure! I can get behind that solution :) sounds like a pretty solid initial idea for a unique setting! (Maaaaaybe you should write this? 👀)
As I said, Genshin's own solution is not the only possible one - there are plenty of ways you can get around this cliche. I don't even think the cliche had to exist... I just think people got used to those pairings and sometimes writers (especially game writers) don't even think about them very much.
I think even the simple act of pointing the cliche out is already a good way to avoid it in the future :)
@@JoriamRamoshmm, funny, i just noticed i naturally don't like cliche
True, but also something I have focused on in my setting/ttrpg ruleset: Have different cultures use the same magic differently.
That tempest war-mage from the Storm Isles would probably be pretty surprised to see what the ferrymen of the River Kingdoms or the ice architects of the Frost Empire use the exact same type of avatar style water bending for...
It’s worth noting that in the lore, mages do actually exist without necessarily being tied to visions (or even elements). Mona’s divination powers for example are completely separate from her hydro vision, Albedo’s alchemy comes from a nation that isn’t tied to any of the seven elements, and while Signora gets half her power from delusions (artificial visions), her other half comes from her study of ancient volatile magic. So while Genshin’s magic is more accessible to a variety of characters, it also has more traditional mages (as well as people like Xiao and Yae Miko who are supernatural beings naturally imbued with different elements, or Childe who harnesses abyssal powers from harsh training).
Yeah! It was pointed to me that those non-vision mages exist, but I feel they are exceptions rather than alternate magic systems.
Perhaps something like the Witcher's runes - not a complete system, just an alternate way to use magic that exists in paralell to the more robust magic other characters experience. Still, this opens the door to a lot of non-elemental magic, I'm excited to see what Mihoyo will come up with :)
Hydromancy isn't a method of manipulating hydro like you would with a vision.
It's just a technique that allows you to gaze into moments in time through water.
@@AB-jt4rs
It actually does both supposedly. I think Mona mentions in one of her voice lines that her hydromancy is essentially a conduit for the scrying, implying that there are other ways of doing the same thing. Barbeloth presumably uses hydromancy so that’s what she taught Mona.
Yelan and her family also practice Thaumaturgy, although that was only shown once
I’m pretty sure Visions are like warlock magic, granted to them by a higher being who already has normal “unlimited magic” just simplifying it
"How can Genshin screw up in story telling sometimes when they make so much money" You could ask that question so many large companies. Truth is, the most talented writers are busy writing their own story and hard to purchase with money. Also they have improved since Sumeru.
But Genshin's worldbuilding and lore are definitely awesome.
True, I wonder what "amateur" mistakes genshin made according to him. Because what I like about Genshin's story, despite the over-exposition and not stellar story telling (those are actually gamedev issues anyways), is that it's more coherent than most stories I've seen in a fantasy world (at least in anime and video games). I always find a lot of big plot holes and inconsistencies in most fantasy stories, and I am always pleasantly surprised that Genshin usually manage to avoid that. Sure there are small issues here and there but they are easy to admit without breaking my suspension of disbelief. So if Genshin needs 30 writers, that would mean the whole video game industry needs 100 writers, and probably also most of the anime industry. But maybe that's what he means, after all, story in video games is often considered as a side feature so it's not a surprise if it's not always well written, and for that reason I've never expected much from the story of a video game.
It's really not easy to write a story in six weeks consistently. Pit falls are bound to happen .
There needs to be an agreement between the team what the story is going to be about ,write the first draft , go checking with the team ,if approved then we move but it rarely even happens . Usually writes go through more than 2 drafts until the final additions ,this likely due to mistakes ,disagreements between the team and batch of other stuff .
It's not that the good writers focused on writing their own stories ,that's actually very false . If they do it as a hobby then maybe yes ,but if it's a job(which for most is) they would probably look for a company so they can sustain themselves.
Most stories in Hollywood aren't good because there are no good writers ,it's because writers are not given enough time to even finish the story it self .
And it isn't simply just hire more writers. It actually makes it worse !
When you do something with a group of people there needs to be communication and agreement between them ,or else there alots of arguing and inconsistencies.
Just look at the Warrior Cats series ,the writers there argue and contradict each other so much it got the fan base arguing about a cats fucking eye colour or how many eyes they have . Like for real they gave a cat three different fucking eye colors (and it's not some kind of mix) ,one author says this the other says this !
Its just redundant.
Also why Genshin dialoge is bloated is probably intentional. Hoyo knows they can't output enough content per patch so they probably try to stretch as much as possible so the story takes more time . This also why we don't have skip buttons .
@@zr1L I politely disagree here zr1L!
As somebody with a deep interest in narrative - I mean, you're in my channel, you get it 😂 - you might imagine that the games I gravitate to are very story-focused. And I'm talking both indie games (Spiritfarer, Disco Elysium, Outer Wilds) but also giant game franchises (RDR2, The Witcher series, Persona 5) - these games have superb writing, competing with any great novel in the market, despite making way less money than genshin.
I think it's completely fine to love genshin's story as is! Honestly, I'd have way more fun if I enjoyed the story quests more than I do - but something there hits my preferences negative. Gosh, I just did Kazuha's story quest and their 'detective story' really reeeeally broke my diegesis - I couldn't believe the characters were making such nonsensical conclusions.
But then again, I wish it didn't! I wish I had loved every second of it.
@@JoriamRamos I see, I should have expected that you'd consume a lot of story focused games. I think it's the first time I see one of your videos. To be clear, you're still doing a good job, I'm not angry, just curious. And it's very nice of you to take the time to answer my comment.
So I should say that I don't consume much story focused games because I'm a gameplay-first person and that's why I don't expect much from a video game story, though I'm still critical of it. So for me, these examples you gave qualify more as slightly interactive movies/books than video games and it's fine, it's just not for me. And I think it's easier to execute a good story when gameplay doesn't have to interfere as much, so I feel the comparison is a bit unfair. As for the bigger games franchises that have more focus on gameplay as well, from the little I've seen of Witcher and Persona, to me they didn't look that much better than Genshin, but maybe I don't know enough about them.
I don't think making more or less money has much to do with the matter. Sometimes, the issue is time, not money. Also there are plenty of big game franchises that don't do much effort towards writing, and most of the time it's by choice. And it's pretty clear that, in the case of genshin, story has to compromise the most with the time and budget. It's actually the only aspect of the game that often looks cheap, whereas the rest of the game can seem like it has infinite budget sometimes.
You seem to have misunderstood something. I never said I "loved" genshin's story and I've definitely not "loved every second of it", I said I liked that it wasn't as bad as its competitors from similar genres and that I like that they at least make an effort to make it coherent even if it's not always told very well. I personally prefer a good story that's badly told from a bad story that's well told. In the latter case I just feel like the writers are just trying to scam me by making me eat shit coated with pretty chocolate. I prefer eating good food even if it doesn't look good.
Now then I think it's a bit disingenuous to pick one of the worst story quest in the game as an example. I believe I could find a bad story bit even in your favorite games. And genshin has really good story quests as well, personally, some that I liked the most are Venti, Yae Miko and Tighnari, for example. So I would agree that the quality of them is very variable but it's also kind of inevitable when there are so many of them, I'm at least pleasantly surprised that some of them can be very good, especially considering that they are side content.
And by the way, you still didn't elaborate on what "amateur" mistakes they seem do so much. So I still don't really know exactly what you're talking about. Though I never really expected you to elaborate as it would probably be a waste of time. I'm just probably less demanding than you for story things, but it's also puzzling that I feel like I am astronomically more demanding than so many people. So it must be hard for you sometimes xD. For example, I wonder what you think of the "critically acclaimed" FF14 story, I personally couldn't see anything other than a random nonsensical mess, but I wonder if that's just me.
Sorry for the long answer xD.
@@JoriamRamosit’s a story quest, not really part of the main lore. Even I didn’t love it, but that’s just supposed to be a quick hello to the character and their personality, not a full fledged story.
I've never really thought of vision holders as mages even though they technically are, likely because yeah they don't fit into the regular archetypes of Mages and Wizards with magic. Interesting video, very insightful.
It's nice to have a break from the whole "magic academia and pointy hats" school right? :)
Welcome to the channel! Hope you enjoy the other videos as well :D
@@JoriamRamosi hate magic academy with a passion, in my story you learn it eventually, from something else and no one is stuck to one magic. , natural feeling, because the rules are usually different with everyone after an extent, being non generic as possible took its toll : (
They're more like clerics/paladins. La Signora was a dual class wizard and warlock. Neuvillette is more of a sorcerer.
I like how elemental magic in Genshin Impact isn't just limited to the creation and manipulation of nature's natural elements. It's also energy projection, illusion manifestation, telekinesis, teleportation, elemental mimicry, telepathy and even pocket dimension generation.
they have a fun and creative magic system, ngl
The thing I like about Genshin’s elemental system is that is tied not just to gameplay, but also to the characters and the world around it.
The nations ruled by the respective archon have their own set of ideals that correspond well enough to the elements they represent
Winds of freedom, stones of contracts, thunder of eternity, blossom of wisdom, tides of justice, flames of war, and ice of...love(?)
I wouldn’t be surprised if this channel grew big. It has good production, a good script, and good ideas.
Hey thanks! :)
I've been trying to grow! Hope to see you around
Same. I just started following and was surprised to see how low the number was. Meaning to say that I'm so impressed with this channel. I fully expected many more to come soon.
I agree, this helped me think if Stories that includes magic systems are solid. Got me thinking aswell.
Sadly he uses AI …
@@LaurelKoenigerevidence???
One theory about how character receive their Vision is their back story all have some kind of “theme.”
For example, Electro generally have characters that view the world differently or anemo infamously have characters who have experienced some kind of loss of a loved one or close one and became isolated in some way. It’s not always like that but that’s the theiry
What are the themes of the other elements then?
@@somegoodsoup7008I'll explain it for how the character themes effect when they get their visions, which isn't gifted to them by the gods, but is related to said gods. (It's a little more consistent than how people like to explain character traits).
Anemo is the nation of freedom. Anemo characters experience a form of hardship (losing the dead friend) and it inspires them to give up their freedom to perform a form of civil duty (a govt leader, a police detective, a university professor, etc).
Geo is the nation of contracts. While not everyone focuses on the idea of finances and commerce, the geo characters all are hard working and persistent. But they also create a form of bond (a "contract") within society, not only for keeping a promise to their own responsibilities but also better society through their own determination. (A maid, govt ceo, gang leader, opera house manager, mafia leader).
Electro is the nation of eternity. The story explores a duality of stasis and the inevitable continuous aspect of life, but think of it better like the idea of preservation. Everyone likes calling electro units outcasts, and while they all are ambitious, they have a greater focus on preserving something dear to them, (be it family, ideal, lifestyle, or community). (Shrine maiden, gang member, librarian, policeforce(s), govt official, ship captain)
Dendro is the nation of wisdom. Not all dendro units are scholars, yet that isn't their focus. All dendro units have a moment where they express or pursue true wisdom, even amidst a sea of infallible yet more popular public belief of knowledge. (Botanist, forest ranger, pharmacist, architect, foreign package carrier.)
Hydro is the nation of justice. People like calling them two faced, but that's more so because they tend to all be sociolites (important people of status). A big feature of hydro units though is they all "judge" the world by operating under a sense of moral code. They all have something they live by, they'll actively tell you this at some point in conversation, and they do this despite their regular duties. It's a sense of pride, but it's a code of chivalry, warrior's code, pride of artistry, etc. (Chief justice, various performers, nobleman, tactician focused priestess, politician, astrologer)
Pyro is the nation of war, which doesn't translate into actual battle and wrath stuff. It's more of legacy and passion. The pyro characters are very passionate about their work, but they typically have some kind of belief or practice they inherited. While electro are preserving something important to them, pyro are protecting something gifted to them by an important figure in their lives, the next in line to a passed torch. (Duke, funeral director, chef, mercenary, double agent, lawyer, etc)
Cryo is the nation of love. If anemo units all get a dead friend and do a duty, cryo units internalize their trauma to pursue personal interests. (Warden, nun, exorcist, reporter, academic, barista, various police officers, diver)
@@somegoodsoup7008
Water: Hydro
Earth: Geo
Fire: Pyro
Wind: Anemo
Ice: Cryo
Lightning: Electro
Plant: Dendro
@@somegoodsoup7008 Pyro: Have a passion in something and became the best of it
Cryo: Usually stuck between two opposite sides.
Geo: Strong in their ideology or faction.
Hydro and dendro: I am not sure really about these two.
@@somegoodsoup7008 So I just look at all the hydro playable characters and most of them embody protection. They have something they want to protect.
they definitely paid way more money to whoever wrote the Act 3 Sumeru main story. but i treat the game as a journey not as a storytelling, so i just enjoy the flow with self-insert as the traveler. besides the great world building and how much effort they put into the detail to make it feels alive, the elemental reaction system is also what makes me still play this game for almost 3 years now
this is true for most games, specially MMO
7:31 I just wanted to correct this (maybe you knew and kept things generic by referring to the power of this world like "Gods", but anyway). A minority of people can obtain Visions only because of some sort of genetic predisposition or something like that, the details are a secret. Gods don't give Visions, that's a common misconception in the world of Teyvat itself, hence why a lot of players still believe it, even though it's false (I mean players often don't even read the dialogues, so that's not surprising).
From the dialogue with Venti after the Mondstadt Arc:
Venti: As you know, Visions are external magical foci that only a small minority of people possess. They use these Visions to channel elemental power.
Venti: In truth, every wielder of a Vision is one who can attain godhood and ascend to Celestia. We call such people allogenes.
Paimon: Allogenes? Paimon's never heard of them before.
Venti: Hehe, that's because this is a secret that only archons are privy to. We don't need primitive tools like Visions.
Venti: Instead, each archon has an internal magical focus that resonates directly with Celestia itself... known as a Gnosis. [...]
From Raiden's line "About the Visions":
Raiden: Really? So in all this time, no new Electro Visions have appeared in the outside world? Well, what I can say on this topic is subject to certain constraints, but... it is not by my will that Visions are granted or denied. The key is people's desire, and... well, there's another side to it too.
Btw it doesn't really change the content of the video, I just wanted to avoid misinformation on Genshin's lore. Nice video so far!
Why do you think its a genetic predisposition just because they are named allogenes doesnt mean its genetic. We actually see in game that a 100% android Wanderer got a vision. Its impossible for it to be reliant on genetics in anyway since wanderer has none, if you want to says otherwise I cant stop you but you are trying to fit a square peg in a round hole to justify previously held theories instead of following the evidence.
@@GhostEmblem Oh I don't know if it's genetic, that's why I kept it vague, but all the clues and the dialogues indicate that it's an intrinsic property of the person, that's what I meant and the evidence is quite solid too (technically there's still the possibility that the archons are shamelessly lying to us but... eh...). About the puppets, their creation process is unkown, we don't even know for sure if they are made of flesh or not (afaik). The point is that the Archons really don't have control on who receives the visions, Raiden made it really clear, and who receives them has to have some sort of predisposition that only the Gods know more about.
Genshin worldbuilding is extremely realistic. There are too many unreliable narrator and deliberate misinformation in the game, and the winners write history.
That's why the writing can sometimes be convoluted, but it makes for a very good food for thought machine.
No one knows the full truth in the game, and as the Traveler we are there to uncover the secret of the world which is the main narrative.
Only if you are willing to dig enough and connect the dots, will you see the true nature of the world.
The game's fictional world is foreshadowed by the "fake" idols and remnants of previous civilizations, what we see is just the end, not the truth.
People have biases if they are from a certain nation, and so on.
"Gods don't give Visions"
Actually, to be more precise, so far it seems that it's implied that the visions are granted by the gods. Not the Archons, but the gods from Celestia probably.
@@lumcidity ehh… it’s very arguable.
Yes, with “Gods” I was mainly referring to the Archons and other beings on their level (because usually with Gods the people of Teyvat refer to them) and it’s true that we don’t know for sure about if and how “other” celestial beings are involved in the whole thing.
That said, both Venti’s and Raiden’s words imply that there are only two factors, one being an intrinsic property of the person with the potential to get a vision and the second being something related to the “will” of this person. Both factors don’t involve the will of an external being at all, that would be a “3rd factor”. Maybe visions might still get their power from a celestial being, we can’t exclude that, but the will of this celestial being still wouldn’t matter.
This is assuming that both Venti and Raiden aren’t messing with us of course and that they know what they are talking about, which seems reasonable (Venti’s dialogue was in the aftermath of the Mondstadt quest, he had no reason to lie or mislead us in that moment, getting some elements of truth was literally our reward for helping him).
Ah, this is very inspiring for a writer who has struggled to move past the cliched and shackled ways of handling elements. More videos like this, please :)
Soon! I'm writing them, I'm writiiiing aaaaaa
just a bit of a correction, dendro is not only a plant power, si more of a "reality and memory powers" and so the powers of dendro is more about nature than ONLY plants, actually the dendro god skill are based in computers tropes than nature
This is because Dendro is heavily based on Irminsul, the world tree of the game, whom stores all the memories of the world, kinda like the Akashic Records in Theosophy(That's why the dendro "internet" there is called Akasha system).
So Nahida's power being computer tropes comes from the fact she's an Avatar or Irminsul. She's literally a terminal that can access the world's memories. Most of the Dendro character's powers mostly have nothing to do with nature. Only Yao Yao, Biazhu and maybe Tighnari you can consider that they are using plant-like powers. Pretty much no one else from Sumeru, the nation of Dendro, uses plant-themed powers.
found this video from a genshin subreddit, and wanted to thank you for your analysis!
Interesting how many magical systems have same 3 traits, and i loved how you analyse the genshin's elemental magic!
Not gona lie, when you first mentioned the hybrid system of magic, i thought that you would mention genshin's two different system : the elemental via the vision and the pure magic.
The magic is something that isn't mentioned much, but in the world of genshin some people knows how to use magic, that are unrelated to the elemental vision. There are witches, for example, and i think one of Amber's voicelines mention that Lisa tought her some magic. Probably if u look into it you would find more mentions of non-elemental magic in the world of genshin.
Again, thank you for your work, that was an interesting video!
I just learned about the pure magic via some reddit replies - I didn't even realise it existed!
But anyway, as much as we can see some characters using magic without a vision (like the traveller, of course), it's safe to say that those are the exceptions - and the system itself revolves around them :)
Welcome to the channel! Hope you enjoy the other videos :) I'm so happy to see the genshin community here
wait which subreddit
One of the current theories as to how your get a specific type of Vision is that it has to do, at least in part, with your history, but that still leaves a huge amount of room for different personalities or character growth.
Like, I think that every Anemo character has lost someone close to them, but no one is going to mistake the nervous introvert Sucrose with the teasingly analytical Heizou or the twisted Wanderer, despite them also all using the same weapon class. Similarly, Pyro characters seem to be very career oriented, but that ranges from funeral directors, to chefs, to housekeepers/fixers, and former military captain Diluc is still a powerful pyro user, but he's gotten disillusioned with the job he was dedicated to at the time he got his Vision and has since quit and become a vigilante instead.
That's an amazing observation - and one I wish I had made myself!
Where can I learn more about it? :0
@@JoriamRamos I'll preface with not having touched this theory in a while. As far as I know, this is pattern recognition by the community and has not (again as far I as I am aware) been mentioned by the developers themselves.
However, not to take away any credence from the person you're replying to, another pattern that has been seen is Electro characters being associated with nature. Lisa with roses, Yae being a kitsune, and Razor's upbringing by wolves, are some of many examples. You could even argue that several characters associating thunderstorms with Raiden also adds to the Electro side of this theory.
As for a source on the this information, I have seen it crop up in discussions on the Genshin Wiki (I cannot remember where, unfortunately!) If I am being frank, I am not all too sure what to specifically search, but there are certainly several theories out there.
Best of luck if you decide to dive deeper into this rabbit hole! I am hoping that some others can also fill in the blanks to what I said. I am just as happy with being corrected as well!
Lastly, I think you did a solid effort on this video, especially for outsiders wanting a look into Genshin's elemental/magic system. I'm certainly looking forward to checking out your channel further!
I love it when new types of elemental systems are created. When it's different from the usual fire/water/plant cycle. I also write and in my universe I've been trying to make "magic" more scientific. One doesn't just create water pulses out of nothing, but rather has to utilise what already exists. Say for example condensing the water in the air to form a bubble of water. I'm aware that it has been done before but I still think it's neat. My story puts most focus on a different type of "magic" which could be tied more to biology. Take light and dark for example. If a creature is light or dark depends on its species and its habitat. Like how we call owls nocturnal because they hunt at night. There's also an "element" in my world called demonic, and it works like a genetic trait. It changes the appearance and abilities of the one with the trait (just how genes code our appearance and personality) and it can be passed on though offspring or it can be acquired thought certain means. But unlike in most cases, demonic does not equal bad/evil. Just how light doesn't necessarily mean good. Every "element" exists on a spectrum and cannot be defined by one type of behaviour (but it doesn't mean stereotypes don't exist). There are even some species that ARE their own magic system, such as the dragons. I'm trying not to ramble too much so this explanation is super unpolished 😅
In short, there are many tiers and categories of forces in my world, some of them are elemental which are inspired by physics, while others are more like traits based on biology. Some are even closer to concepts like what makes up the world itself (space, time, life death etc) which can't normally be controlled by anyone.
Hey! There's a lot of elemental magic fans in this comment section - how do we find your work? :)
(avoid links because youtube sometimes auto-blocks comments with links, try to tell us how to find you!)
Oh no, that's similar to mine. Back to the writing board I go! (I've been worldbuilding for 8 years)
@@nishikazudagamer5981 more than one person is allowed to have a similar idea. don't scrap yours just because it has been thought of already, or else you'll never be allowed to write anything!
i know im late but, i love the idea of magic systems on the spectrum of realism (physics just like u said) because i hate the term "magic". tho, i don't know what to call these tropes but as far as i know, the anime "fire force" is in this list, and i don't know what im looking for
What you mentioned kinda sums up why I haven't gotten too tired of genshin. Mostly on the hard magic system part, creating different dances or rotations for the characters I collect is endlessly fun for me and it becomes an extra fulfilling challenge to incorporate not so popular units into established rotations to see how the dance can change.
I get why you said it was more game play/design related - but your analysis of weakness/resistance and Genshin's magic really inspired me with my world building. Conflict is really hard for me to generate - and I think that answered several of the problems I was facing and opened up a new world of possibilities for me
Oh I'm glad to read that :)
Conflict can be hard indeed - don't take it personally, I also struggle with it and know a lot of other writers who do. You can figure this out ;) we all do, eventually!
Found this on the genshin subreddit but your content seems really interesting. I've been struggling with my worldbuilding lol
Hey! Welcome to the channel :) take a seat, grab a coffee
I'm happy to hear you came from that subreddit specifically - as soon as I posted there, I was downvoted to zero, so I thought my post would just tank .-. happy to hear it was not the case :)
What sort of world are you creating?
@@JoriamRamosThere are always some downvoters lurking around there, so don't feel too bad. Every new post gets a few downvotes right off the bat. Unfortunately though, it takes luck to get attention.
I'm trying to write a story (just for fun) set in a small town of a planet that *shouldn't* be like ours. Your video just before this one is helping. That part about Middle Earth maintenance is my problem: all I keep thinking about were small unimportant things. Having an emotion to focus on is giving me a path to follow.
seems the developers are also getting more and more creative when associating elements with their god's ideology, The first two chapters (wind as freedom and earth as protection) are stereotypical, but they chose Eternity in contrast of brief thunder and lightning (which turns out the "eternity" is to cherish the transient and dynamic nature of ever evolving human society)
and associating Grass with computer science and dreams is something beyond my expectation, but quite logical if you think about it. Hence the Matrix references everywhere.
While I did love your opinion on the elemental gameplay, as someone who plays games for the story and the writing, it pains me to see takes like yours on that department xD And hopefully you will be willing to reconsider?
Ashikai is my favorite lore expert/theorist in genshin, and she was the first to show me how astoundingly good Genshin's writing is if you know what to look for and don't expect the storytelling to be linear and streamlined. And in this video where she is interviewed for another channel (ruclips.net/video/rFmC_5c5eQs/видео.html&ab_channel=SevyPlays), she says one thing that really sums it up for me: "genshin is not an adventure game, it's an archelogy game."
The quests as they are could even be called bad writing, but that's because most people won't approach it like an archeologist and go hunting for information and unreliable narrators' perspectives and all of that, in literally every item in the game that actually offers explanations. It's not streamlined at all, and it's one of the reasons why it's so dear and special to me due to how realistic it is, but also breaks my heart because it's what the general public doesn't bother to learn and hates de most. Now, I agree that the quests are not always super well set up, the 3 act in Inazuma's main quest suffered specially (even though there were real world justifications to explain why Hoyoverse was in a low point at the time), but they recovered quite well, with Sumeru's main quest having really good writing in my perspective.
I would also ask you to consider that the game is Chinese, not western. This matters for 2 reasons:
- First is that a lot of the things that get translated to english are either really poorly translated (there are tons of fan articles and threads on that, the amount of misunderstanding that the translations cause is scary), and a lot of the dialogue that sounds verbose is also a consequence of, well, the english and chinese language working in very different ways.
- The second reason is that western lessons on storytelling and tropes that work won't necessarily be what the chinese community values, and while I don't know much about Chinese culture, having grown up with anime before this big boon, I can definitely say that non-western stories often don't adhere, nor should adhere, to our standards. Our way of doing things is not inherently superior.
As Genshin characters say frequently, this game is about the journey, not the destination. Many of the moments that the story offers are just meant to serve bonding moments and the small things that we will be able to look fondly back upon. Not everything is meant to drive the story forward, and I personally think that western stories could learn a lot from that, but clearly most people don't share that sentiment so perhaps it wouldn't be such a good idea.
Also... man, so many explanations for things are exclusive to limited time events. I would say that my top of favorite moments are from those. That is definitely one thing that I consider bad about Genshin.
This is it from me. Apologies for the wall of text, and you don't have (and probably won't) reply but I still hope that you read and that other people come across this as well and are open enough to at least admit that genshin's writing can hit pretty differently depending on how you approach it.
Hey Anilyan :) thanks for dropping by and engaging in conversation! First of all, lemme just say here that I would very much rather enjoy the writing in genshin more than I do. I don't benefit from disliking it! Of course I'd love to love it! I just can't bring myself to do it :(
But that being said, taste is taste - you're not wrong or right for defending genshin, as I'm also not wrong or right for (lightly!) attacking it. Some scenes might pass you like a breeze while they make me sigh. It's nobody's fault! Humans have cute little preferences.
I think I'm just not the target audience! I absolutely DESPISE Paimon - and to me the best possible feature genshin could make would be a button to shut her up forever.
But anyway - I will admit that Sumeru's archon quest was a pleasant surprise. The story was pleasant, and Nahida's character really captivated me. I'm not gonna say it's superb writing, but I'm happy to say it's good writing!
I don't think I can chance my mind about Genshin's current writing (omg I just played Kazuha's story quest and these people make such stupid conclusions that they hurt my inteligence), but I'm willing to judge Fontaine and all the next updates with optimism and hope :) does that work for you?
I'm glad this video exists. I also have an elemental magic system as well but I tried tweaking them to stand out, but with purposes.
In my magic system, each element represents a theme of personal, philosophical developed in which the more you understand an element and what they represent, the more you are enlightened by it.
For example: Fire is the elemental of Change, as one can alter almost any material into whatever the need by "cindering", they lean that changes are a part of life, for good or bad, and that knowing what you can and cannot change will help you become a better person.
Or how Earth is an element of growth, patience, and/or maternity. To not rush or force anything but to wait and give care to what you're doing so that the seed you planted will become a mighty oak, so to speak.
Air is about clearing your mind and finding joy or peace in anything like playing or singing in the rain.
Water is about finding ways to adapt and to thrive when in a difficult situation or different environment.
Im still working out the details, but essentially, each ekement has like one singular ability, but it's how you apply that ability that makes it stand out. Like you have to get creative with your techniques or develop strategies to use your magic effectively.
That sounds like a really solid basis :) I am here wondering how those inclinations end up seeping into family structures or government models
@JoriamRamos I have ideas of different races, cultures, and kingdoms express each elemrave.
Like Humans in this settings are more connected to the element of fire, making their craftsmanship more well known than others, but you could also use Fire magic to turn the ground into more fertilized farmland rich in nutrients.
Or like how my other race the Fauns are keened to Earth magic with them being more friendlier than other races so their society would be more open and hospitable. In fact they have no concept of land borders or private territories because they are the people of the land.
I also had in mind of two different types of magic: one that is inherited by what your race is and one that can be learned and passed down or improved that anyone can use regardless of race.
So a human can learn water magic but has an inherent fire ability while a faun could use air magic but has an inherent Earth ability.
This is based from the mythos of the world's creation.
This is very similar to Eastern elemental philosophy. Wu Xing consists of water, tree, fire, earth and metal, but it translates as Five Paths, not Five Elements. First there's earth, stable and grounded. Then tree comes out, piercing through the earth and shooting upwards to the sky. Next is fire, spreading into a thousand directions and blooming with life and energy, and so on.
For me elemental magic feels lame since I'm a science guy and, you know the history, chemistry explains everything better than alchemy. But when you put things into a more conceptional plane rather than material one, suddenly it opens up to infinite possibility and interpretations.
Your insights into worldbuilding are great. Your ideas on the patterns of genshin's elements really opened my eyes.
Great to hear that! Hope to see you around the channel :)
You did a fantastic job explaining the basics of Genshin's magic system! All the information in this video is accurate to how the game presents it to any new player (even though, as a player progresses through the story, they start learning more about the nature of visions and where they come from, but that's a topic for a different video...) Love the points you made in the video, made me think more about the game's world building.
Side note, I wonder if it would be interesting at some point (maybe when the game is closer to the end of its story) to do an analysis of the way it's telling the main story by contrasting the journey of the protagonist (which we get to play) vs the journey of their twin (which we get to discover as we progress).
hey, that sounds like an interesting topic! We still got plenty of ground to cover on that front - but I'm loving how this duality is slooooowly unfolding, step by step
I saw this video from your Reddit post, and I love how analytical it is. But can you at least give an exception to your mentioning of weak writing in Sumeru? Because the writing in Sumeru’s story quests is phenomenal. It’s like the exact opposite of Inazuma’s rushed story quests.
**GENSHIN SPOILERS AHEAD, READ AT YOUR OWN RISK**
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I gotta say, the "same day Samsara" questline was not only my favourite quest, it was my favourite part of Genshin - I loved the execution, the idea around it, everything! So, in a way, yes! I'll grant you that, Sumeru was suuuuuch a great improvement, and I'm looking forward to Fontaine exactly because of that.
The other side of the coin is that, despite Sumeru being the best Genshin had to offer, it's still a far cry from other stoy-driven games. Even Sumeru has its absolutely baffling plot holes - I will never accept how Nahida just.... just.... gave the gnosis... I mean... cmon....
You might argue that comparing Genshin to other titles with better story, especially giant triple A games like Tears of the Kingdom or Persona 5, is unfair - and I'd agree. But even when compared to indie darlings with one or two writers like Hades, Spiritfarer, Papers Please, FTL... Genshin just can't compete.
So for now, I'll say that the writing is becoming competent - but with the resources Genshin has been accumulating, I really hope one day I'll change my mind and call Genshin's writing 'superb' :)
@@JoriamRamos SPOILERS AHEAD
Nahida gave the Gnosis away in order to cause a major setback for one of the Fatui’s most important players, and for information about the world that even she doesn’t know about. I’m guessing it’s similar to what Zhongli gave his Gnosis away for, and Venti as well (it’s heavily implied that he let Signora take his away). All of this is setting up for a major mystery about Teyvat’s lore that will undoubtedly be revealed in Snezhnaya. The gods we’ve encountered don’t seem to be as favorable of Celestia as one would initially assume.
Besides, Nahida didn’t think that she could beat Dottore in a fight if it came down to that, so she threatened to destroy her Gnosis and offered him a way to get it before he had the time to think about it more carefully and call her bluff.
@@JoriamRamos doesn't feel like a plot hole to me, it's dottore using Nahida's desire/curiosity for knowledge against her because she is the embodiment of that as god of wisdom and knowledge. And besides none of the archons seem to be on good terms with celestia
@@zacharygilmore1075 yeah! I'm happy you found it in your heart to love that piece of the story! I still think that - after the doctor was so well-built as this ruthless character - he would get the gnosis, immediately kill Nahida and laugh at their deal while drinking margaritas :(
But sure! I gotta say the story is improving dramatically - and I can't way to see Fontaine :)
@@JoriamRamos In my opinion, the story is trying to set the side of fatui and tsaritsa as the "results justify the means" type of route. sorry for my bad english
Great presentation and production values, but more importantly, the actual content is well-thought out and considered. For all the hate that Genshin gets, including its own community, this video is a good argument for what it does well, especially its world building and combat system.
Thank you!
As I mentioned - I also have my quarrells with some of Genshin's decisions, especially in regards to writing, as this is what I understand best. But still, I gotta admit that I fell in love with the world :) and falling in love with worlds is what we're all about in this channel!
Welcome! I hope you stick around :D
The Fourth Aspect that makes elemental magic boring is that there are not interesting spells, everything is just... throwing elements. No teleportation, no transmutation, no gravtiy spells, no mental/ psiquic spells. etc
The system behind my elemental magic system comes from its origin in my fantasy world.
Back before magic became part of my world, there were many wars taking place.
But one day, a man happened upon a tear in the fabric of their dimension.
On the other side was an informed world of pure energy, with no catalyst to harness it.
So when the man reached out his hand to examine the rift, all of the magic in that realm flowed through his body and tore his soul apart, shattering every fragment of his being, and instantaneously stitching it back together piece by piece.
As the magical energy left his body, it was released into the world.
A world with abundant catalysts (humans included among the catalysts), but no magic.
Until now.
The magic that was now free on this world fused itself into everything that would accept it.
Everything natural to this world was a prime host for the energy of the other world.
Natural objects which hosted natural energy.
Although the energy wasn’t natural to that specific dimension, it was still a natural energy.
As a natural energy, the magic could only take the form of something natural.
Any attempt to force it to do something outside of the laws of the universe would result in the “shattering” of one’s soul.
To make a fire with magic, they needed to heat up the air around where they wanted the fire.
To make ice, they first had to absorb a form of water and freeze it.
Every form of elemental magic needed to be carefully executed to avoid disaster. And that’s why they need to undergo intense training to avoid such tragic situations.
I have many other magic systems, but this is my most relevant and reasonable magic system.
Thought the counterpart for Zhongli being stoic would be Itto being a Chaotic Himbo
As an engineering student, I loved the engineers engineering engineery stuff.
I recently came across a ttrpg magic system called the Eight Elements. It has some really interesting ideas, like how the various elements interact, as well as a spell-powering mechanic that works both narratively and mechanically. In a lot of ways, It's a much harder magic system than D&D, in that D&D works without much explanation why, but this depends on understanding to make it work. D&D compensates by using carefully defined spells to do whatever magic can do, while the other is a no-spell system, requiring the user to shape the magic according to its laws. This is always a fascinating subject to me. Good video.
It could be a system where everyone has an element and there’s 3 aspects of it. Creation, control and transformation. Creation is making your element appear out of nothing, or with your internal energy. Control is manipulating elements around you. Transformation is changing part of your body into your element. So two people who have air as their element would both be able to fly. But it would be different depending on what aspect they use. With creation they would force air out from their body and fly as a jet engine. With control they would cause powerful winds to carry them. With transform they could turn their legs into wind in the shape of a cloud or tornado.
I have been thinking of this system in a world similar to Solo leveling and many other manhwa like it. Where there’s these game like portals with monsters in them. So everyone, maybe everyone over 18, gets these powers, and they’re level 1. At level one you can only use 1 cubic centimeter of your element for each aspect. But you can level it up by beating monsters. So if you want to level up you have to be creative with how you use your limited amount of element. If you have what it takes, then a bullet doesn’t need to be that big to be effective. So while there’s people whose hands are flamethrowers and others are throwing mountains at monsters in the portals, your grandma can also use her finger to light candles.
This is truly an amazing video! It helped me with my game world-building. I'm fairly new to world-building and I had all these questions about how to make the world and elemental magic feel interesting and somewhat similar to existing stories but not cliche. Your knowledge and delivery are great, you got yourself a new subscriber!
Hey Tamara! You got yourself a subscriber as well! Loved your channel :)
And thank you for the kind words, I'm glad I could help. And hey, let me know if you're struggling with any other bits of your worldbuilding - that's kinda my thing 😂 I might be able to help out
Thank you! I certainly do have questions about world building! I can't think of anything specific at the moment because, honestly, I didn’t think that I would get a chance to ask somebody experienced about this. I hope I can get some answers after I binge watch your videos 😁 and I'll let you know if I have some more questions.
P.S. one thing I remember wondering about is how to connect world building to game mechanics. I have the story and understand how it would play out in a book or in a movie, but I really want it to feel good for the player in the game.
ufff this deserves a proper convo, not just a quick reply here - I'll add you on twitter :)
there is this theory about genshin vision element users have in common like fire corresponds to passion where we can see the lawyer/cook/funeral parlor owner etc. have overwhelming passion on what they do, an adventurer that despite having the worst luck, he still pushes on
the geo users or earth have steady and unyielding personalities like zhongli who stick with contracts, yunjin who is strict about her opera performances, ningguang who have strong mind and will to go from rags to richest and the others,
cryo or the ice that have some sort of existential crisis where the nun does not want to do any cathedral work, an adepti who lives among human, a human who lives among the adepti, an exorcist who have too much yin energy so spirits run away as soon as they see him, a bartender who hates the wine industry and so on.
anemo or the wind element which represent freedom have the opposite for its users where a guild master locks herself to serve her nation, an alchemy student who is so invested in alchemy she does not have time for herself, and most of them have dead friend(s) who they blame themselves because of it.
electro users are quite hard to explain but most of them are quite the rebel where a child is to be told to stop daydreaming but then she decided to become one of the character of her favorite story, a sailor who is always being kept in check but then slayed a sea monster in her own, a best student in the academia with so many people that have great expectation but then decided to left the academia to live comfortably.
hydro or the water element have users that are loyal to their beliefs or duties, a deaconess who is loyal to her archon, an astrologist who is devoted to the stars, a leader who is devoted to his nation, a duelist who is loyal to his queen.
and lastly dendro or the plant users have in common is that they harbor some type of secret or is mysterious on their own and is smart in their own way, a scholar who is a walking mystery, a herbalist who is adept at plants(obviously), the archon herself holds the secrets of the world thru irminsul(world three), a pharmacist that seeks the secret for immortality
these are just the few characters and these are just a theory but we can see that vision element "determines one's will and aspirations"(this one is lore accurate)
Another great video! Always come back to your channel to inspire and encourage me in my writing and story telling. Thank you and keep going my friend :)
That's very sweet to read :) thank you for taking the time to be nice! And super happy to hear the videos help you out
I'm writing a story with a Hybrid magic system. Some forms of magic are hard magic systems and some are soft magic systems. some magic is like science or math and can be calculated where as some is mystical and mysterious. The types of people who use either of the groups of two systems are kind of different in that one is logical and the other is whimsical
Eu fiquei o vídeo inteiro pensando "ele tem nome de brasileiro" kk eu nunca tinha visto o genshin dessa forma, apesar de ter notado e gostar muito da forma como as visões são distribuídas. Pela primeira vez alguém conseguiu colocar em palavras tudo que precisava ser colocado sobre sistemas elementais!
As vezes eu brinco sobre criar histórias, etc. E em uma dessas, resumindo muito a história eu imaginei um personagem alegre mas que manipulasse o frio. Basicamente seria por causa da relação dele com sorvete (o mundo é meio Jojo) kk Eu gostei da ideia mas não sabia o pq... Mas agora você me mostrou o motivo! Foi pq ela fugia do padrão "gelo = personagem frio, refinado, etc", nesse caso o gelo refletia a alegria dele. +1 inscrito!
Nos próximos vídeos eu comento em inglês, hoje o sono não me permitiu kk
Acho sorvete uma ferramenta otima pra construir um personagem com poderes de gelo :) e é mesmo uma idéia bem Genshin, né? Mandou bem!
Ah! E oh, upei um videozin esses dias só pra agradercer os brasileiros que aparecem aqui: ruclips.net/video/SyTG085qKLs/видео.html
Came from Reddit stayed for the quality content!!! Keep up the awesome work
Thank you so much!
I feel like I won my 50/50.... on youtube 😂 welcome to the channel
Great video, I actually loved the little game design section!
Thank you so much for putting this together Joriam!
oh thanks! It's always a risk to deviate from the main theme (but as you could see, I'm quite passionate about this other topic as well - I couldn't resist!), but I'm very glad it worked out :)
Hope to see you around the channel!
I feel like I need to explain the confusion about my name. Sam is in fact my Real-name, what happened was someone hacked my account and changed my username back to an old name I no longer use. It was very disturbing and I'm glad you still called me Sam. 💛
Great video!!! I love the way that something so small as questioning how one acquires magic can have such profound changes. I would love to see a deep dive into different magic acquisition systems. The way you go so in depth with your examples is truly wonderful as it exposes stories and worldbuilding that I would have never though of or been exposed to and it broadens the scope of the impossibly possible.
Thank you! That's very nice of you to say!
Yeah, I think the acquisition of magic might be a topic I touch on many times - I think it kinda defines how characters see magic in different settings.
@@JoriamRamos Exactly! Most of the magic systems I’ve created have innate powers that are either random or passed on through genetics and now that I think about it, it seem way over done. If I can just tweak the acquisition bit to something unique it will elevate the whole world.
Really interesting video, well structured and loved the examples. Keep going!
Thank you so much! And welcome to the channel :)
Magic coming from fame sounds like it can lead to a commentary about online content creation and/or social media influencers, which could be a MASSIVELY impactful type of story to tell right now.
would be interesting, right?
The more fame you have, the most amazing magic you can do... that leads to more fame as you can do all that stuff. Easy way to create a thoughtful paralell with, say, money!
@@JoriamRamos Plus there's a number of different things that could influence the kind of magic you have. What you do that made you famous in the first place, the kind of fans you have, the platform you're most famous on, how fast or slowly your following has grown, how the mage treats and interacts with their fans, why they wanted to achieve fame in the first place, etc.
@@AzariahMarinaStarcaster yes yes yes!
And the 'old fame' mages would resent the newly booming kids with their volatile tricks!
@@JoriamRamos And now I'm thinking about how people irl will already do some pretty heinous things for fame and success, so imagine how much worse that would get in a world where fame = magic power and how conscious somebody has to be about growing their power/following with as little harm to others as possible.
... I need to write this down.
MDS!!!! Eu não tinha ideia que vc é br!!!! Vi um dos seus vídeos e já tinha começado a seguir kkkkk. AMO seu conteúdoooo!!!
Ai brigado hahahaha
Eu acabo nao falando mt portugues nos videos, mas eh bom lembrar de vez em quando q eu sou da terra do huehue
Tbh genshins elemental system aka the visions is closely related dc's lantern cores than to avatar's elemental system, both are recieved by the person's will and individuality and the vision's magic is based more on construct than manipulating elements like the avaters do
You're a brazilian writer ? I am brazilian as well. I came here from your post on reddit ^^, nice video and good luck with your channel Joriam. I also love some parts of genshin's writting, and I put up with the other part... as you pointed out yourself. I hope fontaine brings better execution to the stories, that would be nice.
Oh, agreed, this aspect of the worldbuilding was one of the things that really drew me into Genshin, although it is also true that I wish the writing would use it better...but that's a whole other rabbit trail. One thing I'll add is that I do believe that there is meant to be a connection between the character and the element they received, just not in a stereotypical mono-personality way. The Pyro (fire) characters are passionate about doing some particular thing for its own sake, without really looking to some final goal, and they are also very attached to and motivated by family. The ice characters are fighting more for survival and self-actualization, and they often have a complicated relationship with family, either trying to separate themselves from a bad situation or trying to find themselves in the face of great expectations. The water characters strive for excellence and will often take great care to present a certain image of themselves to match, hiding their intentions, weaknesses, and/or true feelings in the process.
Saying that to say, you can see these commonalities between characters, but they can still embody that ideal in very different ways and have very different personalities. So, it keeps things interesting and gives fans a lot of depth to analyze. So yeah, I do wish that more stories would take something like this, kind of like the possibilities you were suggesting at the video's end. Having a commonality beyond just the shape of the thing they shoot from their fingertips can be very fun worldbuilding fuel when you consider the many different possibilities beyond just 'the fire person is hotheaded'
Magic System Pitfalls:
1.Too ridged and predictable
2.Revolves around raw power and not utility and problem solving
3. Chosen ones, characters with heavy duty plot armor
Oooh, I love this! I this helps a lot! I have been working on a magic system and I have had issues thinking about how to avoid personality cliches... But I think I figured out something? I know that people have different layers to their personality, so I thought the core of ones being could determine what element they born with and how they interact with others and their environment changes how they can use their abilities. For example the core of fire is passion and it can be expressed in various ways: such as a gentle mother providing a welcoming home for her children through causally using her flames to make warm meals. Other fire users could be an imaginative artisan that pours their soul into creating beautiful sculptures and vases from molten lava, or a seemingly stoic soldier focusing all their energy towards firing direct explosions at an invading army to protect the country he loves... Of course since passion is the core of the their magic, the amount of it they have determines the strength of their magic. Any critiques?
o tema é maravilhoso e o seu entusiasmo em explicar deixa o vídeo melhor ainda
obrigado pela nova perspectiva em magia elemental
De nada! E que bom ouvir que o meu entusiasmo agradou! :)
I'd agree with you on Genshin's writing quality a year ago, but it got miles better for Sumeru.
The way i like "explaining", more like artfully describing, the drastic variety is just to put the variety back in the element.
Water can be a calm, celestine lake like the top of Jueyun Karst, but it can also be the destructive, drowning storms we see threaten Liyue at the hands of Osial, as well as a soft, practical rain that gives nature it's life and color. Geo can be a hard, stead-fast cliff like the stone spears holding down Osial when we arrive in Liyue, and it's also the beautiful mountains that make up its landscapes, not even mentioning the beaches of beautifully nature-crafted sand that stand fluid yet stubborn in their existence. Ice can be the dangerous hailstorm on Dragonspine and the beautiful, delicate snowflakes that inspire wonder instead of fear, as well as ice cubes that can make things more pleasant or even last longer. Pryo can be a raging, uncontrollable firestorm, but also a beautiful, dormant volcano, a joyous firework, or home-y hearth in the center of your home. I could go on.
Variety exists in these elements, in all of us, and i'm glad Genshin made that immensely clear to me as i've played.
Good video ^^ I felt like I was listening and by the time I realize it was over even thou it's 16min long!
Great to hear that! Thanks for the positivity :) and welcome to the channel! Hope to see you around :D
You should read Tamora Pierce’s Emmelan books. The main characters have crafting magic derived from their work- sewing, blacksmithing, gardening, and weather-with the last two leaning more elemental. Before they can be proficient in their magic, they must be proficient in their craft as that is the source of their magic. This system also live along side the more common and traditional academic magic.
It’s a really wonderful series about four orphans becoming family. Also the magic system seemed a bit similar to the one described in your video.
Also I hadn’t really thought about it before watching your video, but the personalities of the characters have more to do with their backgrounds than their associated elements. For instance, Briar (he chose his own name) the plant mage, grew up in a street gang from the age of 4 and his solutions to most problems is either violence or theft and it takes him a while to out grow this mindset. His work in the gardens and his teacher ground him , despite his teacher not having the most gentle personality.
I really think that you would enjoy these books.
Thank You for your wonderful video.
Very insightful video.
Interesting video that reminded me that my magic system has a lot of elemental based magic in it XD
Although I supposed it is not really bad to have since elemental magic tend to be the type of magic that is easier to visualise.
Thanks, I'm gonna watch the rest of your videos now.
super interesting, fun, and helpful vid!
Thank you! Glad you enjoyed it :)
this video is literally incredible. i look forward to seeing how this channel and its content is going to evolve
That's very sweet! Thank you for the encouragement :)
Obrigado pela aula, Joriam! Percebi que tenho muitas oportunidades para melhorar o sistema de magia do meu livro S2
Opa! Estamos aqui pra isso :) bom ouvir que eu ajudei!
Que tipo de livro voce ta escrevendo?
@@JoriamRamos oi, Joriam! Eu fiz uma antologia que está na etapa final de publicação.
Agora estou escrevendo uma novela que é continuação da antologia. Estou aproveitando a liberdade da novela para explorar mais o worldbuilding que iniciei na antologia.
14:57, You should check out Cassette Beasts. They have a similar sort of interaction system and a few more elements. (Poison, plastic, astral, _glitter_, just to name a few) to go with the standard set. Might line up well with that third point of yours
ngl in my own magic system i have "natural affinities" dependant on personality that affects elemental leaning but it's more about on'es state of mind, disposition, and how they interpret the elements themselves like two fire mages would both have intense personalities but one would be more of a physical fighter who views fire as "uncontrolled strength" while the other is more of a healer viewing fire as a "force of creation and new life", a person must discover their spiritual element but one can choose to reject it entirely.
You are simply incredible, I'm so glad to have found your channel. Keep doing what you do! Proud to see a fellow brazilian doing such a great job
Obrigado!! De verdade :)
Thanks for the upload. Instant subscription.
There is one important thing to note about magic systems in writing IMO. Magic in our world is part of the spectrum of explanations of the natural world, alongside and often combined with or indistinguishable from similar disciplines like philosophy, religion, science, etc. These disciplines are not metaphors or expressions of the human world eg. personalities, character arcs, plotlines etc. which are the things of storywriting. So in writing, you should either tie it to worldbuilding literally, or to the story metaphorically, but be careful doing both.
Otherwise you end up with weird conclusions. Like polar and nonpolar molecules don't mix. If there is a magic system based on this for some reason, tying it to character will lead you to conclude that people who have more fat in their diet are the enemies of people who like soup, or something. And I guess vinaigrette consumers are the chosen ones to end this blood feud? Idk it feels forced and confusing to me. The laws of the universe don't have to apply to the human realm necessarily.
How to get a vision:
Pyro - Passion
Hydro - Protect someone
Dendro - Knowledge
Geo - Don’t care about your vision
Cryo - Be a walking contradiction
Electro - Be delulu
Anemo - Have a dead friend
The problem I have with this approach is that now I am asking myself why some of those characters's magic are tied to one element in the first place? I mean, why does the catgirl's magic needs to be tied to nature instead of just being box magic or why the dancer's magic is tied to earth instead of just being dance magic for example. If you bring elemental magic to the table, the elements kind of needs to be somewhat relevant instead of just being some spice spread on top of it.
Pokémon elements in game mechanics might be simple and unoriginal but the elements in Pokémon's designs are much more than that: you don't just have Rock-type Pokémons looking like big rocks but also mountains wolves with fur as hard as rock, fossils brought back to life and more.
The topic was wonderful and I enjoyed listening and the added subtitles really helped. Thank you!
Ah! Thanks for saying that!
I've been putting a bit of extra effort to make good subtitles (rather than the automatic ones) and I was never sure if that made any difference
I'm working on a story where emotions dictate elemental powers. Besides the core 4 (fire, ice, air, and earth) with raw emotions like anger, sorrow, nervousness, and protectiveness, other characters exist with unique powers. The life/health user relies on the emotion of sincere love, while an electricity user might suffer from anxiety.
Cara, no final descobri q tu é brasileiro... Cool man!!! Eu tenho lido Xianxia ultimamente, e essa experiencia (recheada de clichés mas ainda assim satisfatória) me fez repensar bastante os sistemas de magia, fraquezas e coisas assim. Se algum dia interessar no tópico, te recomendo começar por "Against the Gods"... a história ainda está em "ongoing", mas a fantasia da coisa é muito gostosa, e a história tem "arcos de história" que permitem um senso de final em cada resolução. Era isso. Abraço.
Também fiquei surpreso, o inglês dele também é perfeito cara.
Galera, eu postei um videozin esses dias justamente pra agradecer vcs :) olha la: ruclips.net/video/SyTG085qKLs/видео.html
This reminds me of the anime Magi Madoka Magica where girls make a contract with scheming entities, the girls receive a wish and in exchange they must battle magical disasters for their entire lives. The strength of their magical powers is determined by the amount and size of misfortune in their fate, while their abilities are determined by the wish they made. So, there was this one girl who wished for her crush to recover from some fatal illness or a disability I think, so her power became the ability to self-heal and self-regenerate but she had no attack or defensive power, so she can only be abused and because she doesnt have much misfortune in her fate her ability was limited to just that.
I mostly hate elemental system,and prefer Magic system that change the fundamental state of the world rather than Throwing Fireball,Rock,Water,and conventrated air at each other with some alteration
I love Bionicle's elements and the way it handled them for the most part. They were mostly just another tool in the character's arsenal along with the mask powers, and while yes the first toa were standardly characterized by their elements (the fire one was hot-headed, ice was cold and calm, etc.) the series quickly moved on from that.
The way I made my element system makes it impossible to use without complex machinery or just being the right species, and of all elemental species only one is sapient and they have an extremely low population. Characterization is completely independent of their abilities.
I particularly like how the Toa Teams after the original often subvert the cliches whilst often still using both internal and external tropes. Vakama is outright an introvert craftsman and a prophet - things that fire is often used for but that is less often explored (even other 'fire craftsmen' tropes I've seen still tend to make them angry and militaristic). Later in the series, Kongu picks up the 'Comic relief' ball in spite of being well-qualified to be the leader because his whole team is depressed and SOMEBODY has to help - and that role has traditionally fallen to Toa of Air, so he takes the burden in spite of how often he gets the short end of the stick himself, but nobody's around to cheer him up. Bionicle was so cool.
I have a magic system where when something dies it creates a special substance that can be used to animate things, usually earth, water, or air, but some other less elemental things as well.
I loved the video, the energy and your work! Love from Brazil
Here from reddit! You just got yourself a subscriber, keep up the good work!
That's very sweet of you! Hope you enjoy the other videos - and the other magics :)
The elemental interaction in Genshin Impact is partly based on Wu Xing or the chinese elements, where each elements is strong but also weak at the same time to other element depending of the quantity or if is Yin or Yang based.
In such cycle also includes interactions where buffs and debuffs can ocurr, with balance as a key part of their philosophy.
I gotta say, the other side become much more open to my suggestions after I told the aeromancer to summon that hurricane
I find it helps that while the 7 gods that grant the visions to people are directly tied to certain nations, the people that they choose aren't tied to where they're born.
Yoimiya, Yanfei, and Diluc are all Pyro vision wielders, but not only are they all from different nations, none of them are from the nation that holds the Pyro Archon
About mages all being wizards or not. I think one cool idea would be to have a worldbuilding explanation on why magic got widespread, so not just wizards in a "magical university" can learn it:
Was some human trained by an elf called Flamme whom spreaded magic to mankind, almost like a magical Prometheus spreading fire, because she loved magic so much, and now her elf disciple is collecting all sorts of folk magic as a hobby?
Has the printing press been recently invented, and just like how it happened in our world, there was a fierce competition among the press owners in whom could make more books and profit from it, but books in this case are magical grimoires?
Magic has always been around, because it's literally that world's "science", so even an old villager lits her candles for prayer and start her hearth fire with a snap of her fingers, and thus, all those old firestarting methods were never invented.
Maybe humans and other humanoid creatures domesticated elemental beings and through a symbiotic relationship, one can use sylphs to cast wind magic or salamanders to cast fire magic, at the cost of vitality or something. So the creature will slowly eat away your life force with the more you ask it to make magic for you, and those creatures are sentient beings, so they might like you or not.
There is elemental magic in my light novel, but that's because the world itself is based on the four elements. Also, I specifically matched my characters' personalities with those elements (earth = gentle and nourishing, fire = fierce and passionate, water = composed and adaptive, wind = ?). While elemental magic is used in my story, the actual magic system is emotion-based, offering many options for storytelling. Sound good?
I would like to see more game design tangents please ^^
A very enjoyable video! thanks for creating and sharing it.
I was laughing at myself a bit, as I have a lot of elemental based magic systems.
so I was sort of thinking about them in the back of my mind as I was watching this.
and when you said "water mages are kind."
I laughed a bit as the water mage character of mine I thought of is not kind. she's a protagonist but she is also the meanest and most villainous of a trio. the cruel and cunning lady of the lake.
regardless it was an interesting analysis of elemental magic systems and why it can become stale. it also goes to show you that there are many ways to do a thing.
if you could count, count honkai star rail too.
in HSR from the same company, character also have elements reaction too but they also standout from traditional ways for, imaginary element, Quantum element and physical elements.
they do have similar traits for their own paths but rather get from the gods, they receive from birth instead while the main influence were the path follow the aeons instead and any kind of elements can receive the blessing unlike genshin character does.
Do you prefer hard of soft systems?
I have a strong preference for Soft systems :) but not that I will only read/praise those!
How about yourself?
My magic system takes elemental magic to a way different level. 7 elements-
Kinesis-control a matter
Duplication-dupe matter
Materialization-change matter into another matter
Crystalization-break the f4cking air to form spikes and barriers
Chi control-control chi and focus or transfer it
Astral projection-be so connected with spirits including yours.
Portaling- never bother learning this if your not a royal blood
With this magic system the "sorcerers" can be creative and have endless possibilities(whilest also being restricted with rules like-you can only control one specific material at a time unless you have mastered your element to great extent)
It's so far from being an elemental magic because kinesis itself is more than enough
The main story line follows Niko and his other two friends. Niko has chi control which is very very useless in combat but with his creativity he found a way to use it for things like- not getting tired from fighting while using 100% of his strength, or jumping so high because he can focus his chi to his leg muscles, or sucking the chi out of his enemy to drain their strength
Then his other friend is mickey(girl- mayki) she has kenisis and to be efficient instead of throwing random sh1t off the ground she carries exploding origami paper. Then she makes origami frogs of butterflies then just swarms the enemies to abliterate theme. She then learns to awaken her element to basically levitate(she learns this by the second movie). And when she's out of origami then she can just use her second element-dupelication(each sorcerer can have 2 elements)
An explanation for why the writing may seem stale, or too long, is that the game is Chinese, and in Chinese there are words that might explain something in less than what English needs, and the translations might be too literal sometimes.
I am working on an elemental hydra. What makes them unique is their main theme on unity, despite their contrasting personalities and different magic styles that conflict with each other, they need each other to help solve not only their individual, personal quests, but the main quest of reuniting a broken world and the races that are constantly at each other's throats. despite being a multiheaded hydra, each head has their own separate physical form that can manifest themselves by separating from the main body. This is useful when they need to separate to solve puzzles or tackle enemies that require a specific combination of elements. Separating is useful, but leaves them vulnerable with smaller mana pools and stats overall. The main body formed by fusing two or more heads is useful as they share each head's mana pool and can modify the body depending on which head is in which position, the central head is the one who controls most of the bodies and decisions, while the right head is the sniper which controls the wings and uses long ranged spells and attacks to strike enemies from afar and the left head is the shield that protects and controls the arms and legs of the body for offense and defensive purposes. Each head has their main preference for position, but their spellcasting variability can enable them to take on different positions with varied effectiveness of their element. Each head is made of two elements: fire and earth, wind and lightning, water and ice- and they are more a manifestation of those elements with a lost soul chosen to be incarnated with those elements to create each of the heads.
Honorable mention to Limbus, which thematically (and literally with EGO/abnormalities) ties elements to sin- so sloth is earth/metal, Lust is acid/poison, gluttony is plants/clams, eletricty is envy, wrath is fire, ect. This gives a strong design unity to both charecter thematics and the various EGOs they use and enemies they find without limiting themselves to the element’s stereotypes- or rather giving a whole new set of stereotypes, symbols and implications to each sin/element that allows them to be used for fresh visual language
The weirdest part is that greed is not an element, being replaced with gloom/water/ice: I have no idea if this reflects a mistranslation, a deliberate exclusion, a lore-important oversight, or a gatcha company trying to cover it’s ass😂. It seems to have been folded in with gluttony, but at the same time I wouldn’t call depression a sin.
The video game "spellbreak" had a really cool system with interactions as well, where you could have a poison cloud and if you throw a fire spell on it it explodes and deals damage to anyone close enough.
Sadly the servers closed on this game
nossa só no final eu fui descobrir que você era Brasileiro hahaha
muito boa a revisão!
Hello, 🙂 first time I saw a video of yours and I have to say; that was indeed entertaining so there is that 😄. I recently started to play Genshin Impact a few months ago, and I really agree with what you said about the game freeing itself of the clichés related to elementalists or chara design of elementalists.
Also at the beginning of the video, when you were about to adress the " 3 mains issues/stereotypes of the elementalists design " , as a GAMER, I immediately thought of " gameplay mechanics and aspects of the fights "
So I pressed pause and try guessing what you were going to tell.
And for me the main issue was:
- The wizard/sorcerer/mage tropes -
Long distance combat, very powerful spells, good dps .. but weak defense! No close combat with weapons (which people do enjoy) range combatant, weak at close range: being destroyed by swordmen if they catch you, etc ..
Yeah cause in video games, if elementalists exist, to make it balanced and fair and not only around magic, we create tropes. We give them powerfull mid to long range attacks, with large zoning effects, different types of magic to make it diversified and allowing different type of actions to the player. In short: paranormal abilities and actions (and it s fun to play).
So to make it not overpowered, we make them vulnerable! Low defense, low hp .., bad capacity to take hits without flinching etc etc.. And all of that to make a contrast with the warrior tropes, the archers tropes, .. the physical dmg tropes .
There is also the " mana/ ressources managing " which can be frustrated for the player , but essential game aspect again to make it fair .. if you can send a giant fireball 🔥 in the face of the ennemy without sweating, I guess it s logic not to make it happen each 2 sec, or nobody would play archery if they don t want to get insta killed each time they play PvP 😂.
I could tell so much more about magic or elementalists in video games .
But all of that to say, in Genshin Impact, they also break free of the cliché in gameplay mechanics as well!
No mana, the majority of the cast use close range weapons with magic.. no sorcerer tropes :)
Ps: you re so cute I subbed haha
Ah não, percebi um leve sotaque ao longo do vídeo, mas nem me liguei, já assisto conteúdo de vários lugares mesmo, o importante é entender mesmo.
Mas aí no final o cara manda do nada "I'm a brazillian writer", que que véi, vivo achando wild BRs por aí kkkkk
Parabéns pelo vídeo btw, muito bom
hehheh obrigado! Bem vindo ao canal :)
Mano que incrivel. Se vc não dissesse que era brasileiro eu nao ia perceber nmrl. Seu inglês é mt bom. Ok, agr falando sobre o video, eu já vi um sistema de RPG chamado A Lenda dos Cinco Anéis, onde os atributos que seria sla, Força, Destreza. São elementos tipo Fogo, Água. Onde cada elemento é uma "abordagem". Ah, um cara vai atacar, ele pode usar Fogo se for atacar ferozmente, ou Ar se for atacar de forma mais precisa. É muito legal e me lembrou isso ai que vc disse no video. Nmrl parabens, que conteúdo legal o seu :)
My favorite Elemental Magic system is the one in anime Mushoku Tensei. What i love about it is that it's deceptively simple at first look but way more complex once you look deeper. At first it looks like simple elemental + healing + summoning system until you realize those are only human made frameworks around not fully understood force of nature, created to make magic easier to use and learn, not an intrinsic parts of the system. Just like in real life "Newton's laws" are neither built in to the fabric of the universe, nor even accurate representation of phenomena it describes, but just an useful human made framework that makes it easier to understand physics.
As an electrical engineer, I was actually curious where you were going with your engineering team example. XD
I love element systems, though I think what Genshin (for the most part) does well, is give a new sort of characteristic to an existing element. For example, in Teyvat, Electro is the element of 'eternity', which is paradoxical due to how short a lightning strike lasts. On paper, it's weird to think of Hydro as the element of 'justice'. Some do make sense, like Anemo being the element of 'freedom' and Pyro as the element of 'war', but it's always cool if there's iterations on these sorts of characteristics.
Honestly, I feel like more element systems should look further than just base characteristics of each element they use. Why not make earth not an element of endurance, but instead creativity (with how earth is used for things like pottery and sculpting), why not make darkness an element of mystery rather than simple 'absolute evil'?
My only issue with this is that it dilutes the terms used. If you don't need to study to become a 'wizard', then what is a 'wizard'? Just someone who casts magic? What do we call the subdivisions then?
For some narratives, sure, that can work. You might not need the subdivisions. On the other hand, you might have a narrative where you should have those subdivisions, and a general term like 'wizard' ends up being too narrow to be a general term (since "wizard" usually implies "study & practice"). Such is where you'd then get the non-Wizard terms for alternate magic systems within the world (Sorcerer, Druid, Warlock, Paladin, Witch, Monk, Alchemist, Cleric, Ranger, Bard, Artificer, etc), which could themselves be broken down into thematically-consistent subdivisions as well, while also grouping all the 'major divisions' under a general header term like "Mage" or "Caster".
In other words, it can be good to keep these terms more exclusive rather than inclusive.
me: wow, he has such great points and shares the same passion I had for Genshin when I played!
Joriam: I'm a Brazillian writer--
me: OXI
Mas sério, o modo que você elaborou na distribuição de visões e essa "soft magic" foi tão bem feito que já me inscrevi
Obrigado! :) Genshin não é meu tema principal, mas eu botei meu coração nesse video!
Ah! E esses dias eu upei um videozin só pra agradecer os brasileiros que aparecem aqui ruclips.net/video/SyTG085qKLs/видео.html
@@JoriamRamos Já deixei até um comentáriozinho lá
I like Boboiboy's approach in this elemental power concept where the elements are stronger the more fitting his mood is to each of them.
this is why i love Warhammer Fantasy's magic system.... it has part elemental magic, part conceptual magic. and these two approaches blend seamlessly.