@@ForensicDetailing done! And I just bought Feynlab Pure and Gyeon Eco Wash thanks to this video. My plan is to pre-treat with Feynlab (superior cleaning power), then contact wash with DIY Detail (good dirt release and mar reduction), then use Gyeon as my drying aid (mar reduction plus added SiO2 protection). While Labo Idrosave has a slightly higher mar reduction and better water beading, the Gyeon Ecowash also says it can be used as a waterless wash at 1:10 dilution (vs Labo's 1:100 recommended dilution for water less)
This is what I expect from the channel. I trust the results over most others who clearly give positive reviews so they’ll continue to be brand friendly and receive free products. I’ve tried a few as sometimes the hype is hard to ignore. I’ve found Mckees, P&S, DIY, and Armour to be underwhelming. So I continue to stick with ONR and the sponge.
For me, marring reduction is the most important factor as I pre-wash with Bilt-Hamber Touchless (so cleaning power is less important), and I use a modified Gary Dean method (so dirt release is also less important). So based on that I'll probably try Labocosmetica and Gyeon Ecowash next. But if I'm using my Legacy Sponge, then it's DIY Rinseless due to the superior dirt release and mar reduction (DIY is the best at Mar Reduction without leaving any residue behind). And Feynlab seems to be the best overall for cleaning power and dirt release.
Thank you so much for this test. Convincingly the most comprehensive test I’ve seen to date of rinse-less washes. You’ve really given us viewers the ability to hone in on the individual areas/strengths that we’re looking for in a rinse-less wash to help us make a decision. Excellent work, again.
Once again, an interesting test. A gem for the detailing purists who like more info than just excited and hyped people who use products. Stay with us forever. 😁
Def need the spreadsheet of this sir. Would like to remove the value factor and just solely grade on the washing power and slickness. Need to know! I guess I can make my own spreadsheet w your scores. But amazing test. Thank you so much for doing this extensive test! Been waiting for weeks for it !
Yes, that would be so useful for a few reasons. 1, price per use is very important to me but being in a different country, I have to calculate my own prices. 2, some factors are definitely worth testing for some, but not for me. Like how clean they leave the wash media doesn't matter to me since I use multiple towels rather than putting them back into the bucket of solution.
1st KC RRW: value 4, cleaning 4, dirt release 4.5, user experience 3.5, mar reduction 3, usage 5/5/4 2nd Carbon Collective Evovle: val 4, clean 4, DR 3.5, user 3.5, MR 3, usage 3/3/4 3rd ONR: val 4.5, clean 4.5, DR 2.5, user 2.5, MR 3.5, usage 5/5/4 4th Feynlab Pure: val 4, clean 5, DR 4.5, user 2.5, MR 3, usage 5/3/3 5th Gyeon Eco Wash: val 2, clean 2, DR 4, user 3, MR 4.5, usage 5/5/4 6th Wolfgang Uber: val 2.5, clean 4, DR 1, user 3.5, MR 3.5, usage 5/5/4 7th ADS Hero: val 1, clean 1.5, DR 5, user 4.5, MR 3, usage 2/5/5 8th Labo Idrosave: val 2.5, clean 2.5, DR 2, user 4.5, MR 5, usage 5/4/3 9th P&S Absolute: val 4, clean 2, DR 1, user 5, MR 3, usage 5/3/3 10th McKee's: val 3, clean 2, DR 3, user 2.5, MR 3, usage 5/5/4 11th DIY Detail: val 1, clean 1, DR 5, user 2.5, MR 4, usage 5/3/3 12th Autoglym: val 1, clean 3, DR 1.5, user 2, MR 3, usage 5/4/2
Been really looking forward to this review and it didn't disappoint. Currently using 4 RW's ONR, P&S , DIY and from last week Koch RRW. Each has its own virtues as you have pointed out. ONR has been a must have for me for ages, moving forward it still will be. But will continue to keep the Koch while it remains at this price. Its an excellent product. You smashed another one Jon. Cheers!
Just a fascinating watch. I'm not really that much of a car guy and only started taking an interest in detailing over the last month or so. Loving your work, even if I don't follow all of it. The passion, integrity and commitment to your videos are a breath of fresh air.
A good detailed test. For the people who have used Rinseless washes a fair bit, its fairly safe to assume that they can all be used to cover the typical cleaning bases and are far more versatile than regular car shampoos, but as you have seen, some are better than others at certain things. Polymer washes are really good at cleaning glass, so much so I don’t need a glass cleaner any more. Feynlab Pure Rinseless really is incredibly good at deep cleaning. As you have thought, it can be used as a regular bucket shampoo if you wanted. The benefit of this method is how very free rinsing it is. For this reason, it’s great for assessing water behaviour after a wash as it doesn’t leave anything behind, it leaves a very ‘pure’ surface. Also, due to its cleaning capability, it can be used at 1:500 at no problem at all. Finally, one of its best uses is as an initial polish wipe, particularly on soft paint. Due to its cleaning ability and as it doesn’t leave anything behind (Feynlab are very proud of this), it can be used as a panel wipe, which is safer than typical panel wipes due to the increased lubrication. This is a godsend on pain like Honda or soft Porsche black paint. The Carbon Collective seems to be able to be used in this way too, as can the new Garage Therapy rinseless wash. I know you said that smell isn’t important to you, but if you are using the rinseless wash as your interior cleaner, if it smells nice, it adds a nice smell to the car after use, which is better than a stinky smell! I always have 2 different rinseless washes to hand; Feynlab for its cleaning power and panel wipe ability and a polymer rinseless wash that tends to be better on glass, interiors and as a clay lube. The Koch Chemie would be ideal for this at that price.
I have to agree with most of your extensive list of points. I actually bought the KC Rinseless prior to seeing this video, but having seen what the Feynlab V3 has to offer. I'll be making a beeline for this product very soon.. I actually like the fact that it semi-foams. It is also great to see that the 'OG' Rinseless, ONR can still box with these newcomers. Fantastic test!
I pre treat my car with bilt hamber touchless and rinse down with a hose. Then I fill a bucket with ONR and use an electric sprayer to pre treat the car with ONR from the bucket, then do my contact clean with an ultra soft black sponge. Cleans well and dries nicely with no water spots.
Very similar process as me. After the rinse of touch less, pre rinse with onr and one towel soaked in onr is enough to safely remove the very little residual dirt that's left. Dry with spray sealant and mf. One capful of onr in a gallon + 3 towels is enough to clean three ceramic coated cars - one towel per car
I keep going back to ONR V5 and Koch RRW. Wolfgang Uber was the very first RW I used. It’s also a favorite of mine. I’ve also tried but didn’t care for Absolute, Hero, DIY V1-V2, and just ordered Garry’s deans infinite detail juice will see how that one turns out.
Been using ONR on and off for close to 10 years. More recently used Feynlab for a "panel wipe" pre coating type wash etc. Both really good products for the respective task. ONR in a bucket for glass cleaning around the house, interior of the car etc is also great. That Koch is now on the list though, really hard to beat that price..
Great comparison video, reminds me of the old days. I didn’t realise there were so many rinseless washes out there as I always use ONR or McKees. Just bought Garage Therapy’s to try and initial impressions are pretty impressive. Pity it’s not in the test, bigger pity there was a falling out!
Hell of a session well done. I have already replaced my traditional Fairy Liquid & bath sponge with. Autoglym Polar and now moved to Bilt hamber Touch less Auto wash QD Surfex Traceless Korrosol & Wheel cleaner. I just wanna clean car.... Please stop infuencing me. :) Enjoyed your prezentation Cheers
I've been looking forward to this shootout! Thanks for conducting this thorough test and review of these products Jon. There are so many new ones that have come out over the past two years, it's literally MIND BOGGLING! It will give you headache if you go on the internet and try to determine which one is the best because there are thousands of reviews of rinseless washes on social media/RUclips now! Your extensive testing and review really help to determine what products are worth buying or passing up. There are far too many ZONKERS out there or just a copy of another rinseless wash. Rinseless wash seems to be the new "buzzword" in detailing at the moment, just like Graphene was a few years ago. Can't wait to see what the next new "buzzword" will be next time. Take care Jon.
Excellent video. I have used ONR for a good few years now and feel I will continue to do so. Although might now try Koch when it is available. Use my ONR for cleaning the car during the summer when it is just dusty and a top up was before shows and events etc. Still do the full works when the car is properly dirty. Also use ONR to wipe down my bike after use and cleaning the windows on the house very useful product! Only bit I quite didn't follow was the marring test. Was the panel already marred and you were looking for a reduction? My Biggest want for my rinseless wash is trying to keep my paint as swirl free as possible. Will be interesting to know if the feel of slickness has any real world effect on the paint.
Excellent work! I rotate between Absolute, RRW and Hero (just mixed my first batch but haven’t used). I like them all. I use ONR mixed in Distilled water for my Bissle wet! Bob mop / Vacuum-works great and is cheap!
I tested a couple of these myself but what i did was put some dirt and a cup and mixed it up then timed how long it took for the dirt to pile onto the botton. P&S was much faster than ONR, DIY v2, and Nemesis. Since i use a grit gaurd the ability to pull dirt down is very important to me.
Kudos for the obvious amount of thought and effort (not to mention expense) involved in this, very useful, comparison Jon. Don't criticize or do yourself down for not using some laboratory test technique either. You compare products based on real-world usage, which is how we use them. I noted on your other post that the GT version has had some good comments, though I don't expect you to go through all of that again to include it...not for a few years, anyway.😊
Interesting results. From a price point, it’s interesting that the brand that’s marketed to the DIY’er isn’t necessarily at the DIy price point for whatever reason. The same with their gold standard polish £30 for just under half litre bottle. That’s £20 more a litre than Rupes.
The most popular version of DIY Detail Rinse Less Wash is the gallon. The 473ml bottle sells very little by comparison. As for DIY Detail Gold Standard Polish, when used as instructed you will only need 1 473ml bottle to replace 2L of the Rupes polish. Cost per use and cost of purchasing are 2 different things.
Recently used ONR on the only 2 white PVC double glazed windows I can get to. Worked very well and the glass buffed off as good or better than my ordinary glass cleaner. ONR is what I had so not saying something else wouldn't have done an equally good job. For me if something works no point in making a potential mistake with anything else. At least, not until the bottle is empty. LOL.
Thanks for all your work on this John. As someone new to the valeting industry value & cleaning power atm is my top concern. I went for Armour Hero based upon American reviews and so far it’s been ace but I’ve yet to compare, so will try the top 3 in descending order when I run out. I like the concept of rinseless to cover so many uses for exterior and interior cleaning especially as a beginner . Thank you again 🙂👍🏼
I don't know what DIY is thinking, same as Pan. Both products pretty much double the price of ONR. I just bought 32oz of Absolute to try and paid $22 Canadian. DIY costs that for 16oz. I think Geyon new SiO rinse less will be a hit. I'll defininatly try that, price is good too!!
it might not be a case of what they are thinking. It may well be the case that some brands cannot sell you a litre of rinseless for what you payed for absolute. its may not be financially viable. P&S have the advantage of buying raws and blending them which means they can compete on price. The active ingredient levels in these products are very low. I would guess that chemical cost of a litre of this stuff is way less than a pound or maybe even a dollar.
their QD at 1:20 can be used for a no rinse wash. But its not really a rinseless and its not competative price wise at that ratio compared to these. But yer would be nice if they had a dedicated rinseless
great content, john. thx from the other side; we use these a ton- for a bunch of things. its a rabbit hole, but a serious conversation for everyone prepping for a show. you are the standard in which all other testers are compared. your worst are my worst, and your best are my best (save for the ones I never heard of). even your rankings are in the same order. you give points of usability for instructions; I think a list of ingredients is more important. this is definitely rhe case when shopping in a store and holding the 2 products in your hand. I know what I am buying with the ingredients, and as long as I know what they are, then I can use them, uh, not as intended. but when needed. some companies do not include ratios for use as other things like clay lube because they sell a dedicated product for that.
I did do some SDS stalking. Even though its not an ingredients list as such some SDS seems complete with virtually every component listed with % ranges. Other list nothing on the SDS.
Great video Jon , i am going to try this rinseless wash on my own car and was not sure which to go for but now Koch Chemie seems to be the no 1 choice .
Jon, incredible ! The only product would have liked to see in the test is - Ultima Waterless /Rinseless - I’ve mentioned it before. I think it’s a sleeper - not well promoted like the American products / I thing Ultima is a German brand. Also make a great interior conditioner.
Brilliant work Jon 👍👍👍 i have p&s diy Wolfgang ultima and only use them as a drying aid /clay lube/ QD…. Drying aid is my main use for slickness when towelling the car down with ultima being the slickest so far for me leaving my cars paint slippier than a slippy thing🤣🤣🤣 and in my head I just think the dirt finds it that bit harder to stick to it…even if it’s not the case. I will be trying the fen labs next in a foamer on my cars shuts as it’s a pet hate for me using the jet wash on them and the extra care of making sure I don’t soak the interior 🤣🤣 as my aim isn’t what it use to be🤣
Thanks for the comprehensive video Jon. Interesting to hear your comments re the ones with SI02 added. That would be a mark down for me as my car is ceramic coated and these rinseless wash characteristics would mask the proper coating characteristics. I would be only concerned that it didn’t add marring as opposed to it reducing marring. Horses for courses though! They would be good for a badly scratched car.
That's a great effort doing all this Jon, I've recently purchased the ONR v5 mainly as a clay lube but may try a rinseless for the first time 🤔 but not a chance am I paying £30+ quid for a red sponge!! thanks again for all your time and effort 👌👏👏👏👏
Most important for me is the cleaning capability. In the end it is the main reason why you’re washing your car. From my point of view I would argue that the feynlab is the winner in this video. Going to try it soon!
could be mate. its very different. but to some it might feel a bit more soapy than a lot of the others. it does seem to have strong cleaning power even at low ratio.
@ as long as it’s safe to not rinse afterwards I’m interested to try it. I can’t get used to the polymer feel of ONR. The polymer ones feel counterintuitive to use on dirt if you’re used to a traditional soap wash.
Thanks for another great video Jon, I have found that the ability release dirt actually being most important for me. I am not sure how you are evaluating cleaning power, as practically speaking as long as it encapsulates the dirt it will be easy to remove with the sponge, so the releasing power is critical to the overall cleaning process. Did you evaluate encapsulating ability of the products?
Just used P&S as I was needing some before this test came out. Did t have an issue mixing and I think all these will be ‘fine’ of a light dirt which is all I use them for. Deftly try some of these others. Fen labs was interesting as I found their products sadly lacking for the price before.
I have used dyi detail v1 and v2, ONR I’m still getting through my v4 bottle, and Wolfgang. I threw out my bottle of Wolfgang after it stained my drying towels. But generally can tell much differences between onr and dyi detail when washing with a sponge. I’ll definitely give Koch a try, cheers mate
DYI V2 there is no difference with V1 did i heard from a C6 installer. Had to do with supply issues. I know Yvan says its a rumour but hey, he is an excellent salesman. ;) Good product still tho!👌🏼
Great Video Jon i bet the Boys and Girls over the Pond will say everything to discredit your views , but i must admit my Favourite from your Lists of RW are Feynlab V3 , Labocosmetica and Geyon as they leave something behind is what I’m looking for in a RW 🇬🇧
Thanks Stayed out of the comment section before watching this, was expecting more spice if I’m honest, early days maybe. Have used Rrw a couple of times now and like it, Uk pricing is also good and hoped it would do well. Great vid Jon
I have used ONR, ONR with Wax (the green stuff not the blue) and most recently I have been using Wolfsgang Uber with SiO2 since all my cars are ceramic coated. I'd like to see a version of the "enhanced" ones and I would also like to see how the AMMO NYC frothe compares, though his is not the same as these rinesless. Good video, thanks!
Great testing as usual from you! Thanks for all the effort! The star chart is useful! But with all of your tests, I think a chart showing the scores for all the products would be useful - especially to compare just the tests that matter personally to a person.
Very interesting video. I have a lot of these. And I’ve said before you started the tests that Labo is my favorite user experience followed by Absolute. They’re just so slick. And I had a feeling labo was the safest for my paint. I do want to try Koch next
Thanks for all the thought you put in this. If I crunched the numbers I would remove the marring test and the dry buff as this over weighted towards products that left something behind. As you admit this may be a pro or con based on your use case for using the product. Also, I think you should mention bulk pricing as this is so important to you. DIY for example is 50 GBP for 3.78L which would probably put it near the top on value. You just need to share with your friends…..
I think most people would never use more than a liter of rinseless wash (256 liters of solution at the common dillution) before it potentially would go bad from being so old so I think just using the price of a liter is reasonable.
I recall when it first came out (ONR) i maybe wrong, but you could add it to your normal shampoo, and it would help with dirt release along with its water softening feature
@@MotorFest-k2v yes, that was a thing that was promoted. If you have very hard water, it is something you could still do and may help with slickness,dirt release/encapsulation and mar reduction.
yer the problem was as yvan said it kills the suds in the shampoo. I dont think you need to mix with shampoo its like use rinseless or shampoo. the moment you use them both then you have to rinse so might as well be one of the other.
This is an aspect that consider most with rinseless washes. To my mind it would worth mixing rinseless with (neutral/ light) apc or rinseless with shampoo. My problem is dust, we have much of it and I think it would be beneficial something that ecapsulates dust +cleans as a prewash or helps lubrication + water softening as a shampoo.
I was able to buy the DIY Detail V1 Rinseless Wash in a 128 fl oz size for about $59 CAD. They now have a V2 for $69 CAD and have stopped producing the V1. I suppose they don't likely sell it in that size in UK however. I was previously using Griot's Garage 10939 Rinseless (64oz) which was $23 CAD (now $30) and I noticed very little difference in performance, however it was 140:1 instead of 256:1.
important to work out cost per wash. and the absense of a ratio on the label makes it harder to cross compare. but thats an example of a big difference in ratios which would have a large bearing on real cost.
Supply issues made them produce the V2 idd. Hence other manufacturer, different blurry color. Yvan says its a rumour, but a C6 installer told me this. 🤷🏻♂️ Yvan is an excellent salesman so thats that. 😁 But good product nonetheless. Same with the sponges and the pads now made at uro fiber.
@@NoFixwe stopped making V1 because we released V2. We have had supply shortages because we are growing too fast. We switched our foam manufacturing to Buff and Shine because Lake Country couldn’t keep pace with our growth.
Thank you for this interesting video Jon. I'm very skeptical of these, and would never wash my car without a pressure washer, snow foam, etc. I can see why there would be a market for them, not everyone has a driveway, or access to a hosepipe and pressure washer, but I would be very worried about swirling, and personally would never use one. Each to their own though.
When i use them, i do prewash with BH and a pressure washer first, though. Only time i don't is if its gotten a very light layer of dust etc (i.e its been sitting unused for a week etc). I would say wash technique is the biggest factor for marring though.
@@UnlimitedStone Thank you for the reply, and sharing your experience. I'm not sure if there is a point, to using a rinseless wash, as a shampoo though ? If you're going to do a pre-wash, and use a pressure washer, why not just use a shampoo ? There are some great shampoo brands, and they are very cheap, especially compared to any of these products. Maybe I'm missing something, but I can't see the point of using one of these instead of a shampoo, if you have all of the facilities to do a proper wash anyway ? I can understand using one if you don't have the equipment or facilities. Definitely agree that technique is a big factor in reducing swirling or marring, absolutely.
@@DjNikGnashersPeople say they're a lot faster than a regular wash because you're not walking around the car with your foam cannon, switching to a rinse and walking around again, switching to shampoo and walking around again, switching to rinse and walking around again, switching to drying and walking around again. Instead it can be walking around to rinse once, then you rinseless wash and dry a panel before moving to the next panel. It may also leave less liquid to dry if you have non-hydrophobic paint that's clinging to water but that's a rare situation for detailing enthusiasts.
@@themikeroberts Yes I get the whole time saving thing matey, for people who don't want to get all the equipment out, or more specifically, those who don't have the equipment to do a proper wash (or can't as they live in a flat etc), I think I said that in my previous comment. I don't understand why anyone would use a rinseless *instead of a shampoo* if they already have the equipment and have already used it to pre wash, snow foam, and rinse anyway. As I said in my previous comment sir. The only use (I can see) for a rinseless wash, is for people who either don't have a driveway, or live in a flat etc, and can't wash a car properly, or those who are not into detailing and just want the easiest & quickest method, (and are not bothered about swirling or marring their paint). I honestly don't know anyone with a reasonably decent car who would use rinseless washing as their only product, anyone with even the slightest pride in their paintwork would use pre wash (citrus for example), then snow foam, to remove 98% of the dirt, before any sort of contact wash. And as shampoo is so cheap compared to rinseless products, why would anyone use it as a final contact stage shampoo alternative ? Hopefully that makes sense, as it seems my comment is being misunderstood. Have a good evening my friend.
You should try it after a prewash, I’ve always been of the same opinion until this year as I decided to give it a proper go, its a much better option in the summer at least as you can dry as you go, you can’t do that with soap, it’s possible that this will become my year round go to.
Im pretty impressed with it. I decanted it and put it in my litre bottle with the tolco. But I wont be buying it again because its just too expensive and that really is the case for quite a few of them. I want to be sub one pound ideally on cost per wash.
Great job. Clearly a lot of work went in to this. Thanks. For the ones that leave something behind, would that inhibit a ceramic spray sealant's ability to bond well, reducing durability? Thanks, again!
Turtle Wax Waterless wash at 1:100 at a cost of £10 per litre. if you buy it in bulk you can get it down to £3.30 per litre, for a 10 Litre bucket it only costs me 33p a wash. I use it with a Rag Company Ultra Safe Sponge and it works great IMO. I mixed up a version with a tiny amount of Turtle Wax Pure Wash shampoo added and this works even better.
based on 10 pound per litres. you would use 150 ml for 15,000 so that would give cost per wash about 1.50. Thats roughly average in this test where we dont do a bulk conversion. thats twice the cost per wash of the winning product. thats a big takeaway for me. Huge variance in price which has proven to be typical in my of these comparisons.
I can get ONR for $35+\- a gallon in the USA. It’s made right here in my home state of Tennessee. It’s my go-to. But I tried Feynlab v2 at 1-4 in a foam cannon and very quickly cleaned a dirty camper home. Really impressed me with cleaning power but it was too foamy and streaky for regular use. V3 might be better. McKee’s, and Owner’s Pride eco wash were really good, but didn’t stand out enough to purchase again.
Would be interesting to see a marring test for different shampoos vs rinseless washes as rinseless products seem to boast having more lubrication than shampoo. I replaced shampoos with rinseless products years ago (I still pre-wash and rinse first before washing as usual) and would love to see a comparison of the two wash technologies if both used as a shampoo replacement.
You could have panel wiped the marring test panel to remove any protection to see the true results and if the ones you thought were just filling were doing so or actually added some protection. Brilliant video though, I love it when a new long one pops up. I’ve tried Uber and ONR, I found Uber really left residues in the bucket after a while it struggles to release dirt well as you’ve seen so went back to ONR. Will give Koch a go next I think.
No. The protection in labo bonds. Panel wipe wont remove it. So you just Introduce a variable that will alter results. At least with this test the results are the visible maring left simple using the products. That's viable. But flawed.
Awesome data for decision-making! I currently use McKee's. I believe that each category needs a weighting factor, which likely would alter the rankings. Cleaning power, wash media dirt release, and minimal marring are more important than the others for me. It would be interesting to see if mixing products would balance out the performance. 🤔
you can just ignore like the other catagories that are not relevent hopefully the little star guide. putting a weighting on it would just alter the value I place on a catagory which can never align with everyone. so the ability to just ignore the catagories which are not important i think is the best way forward.
@@ninetres187price is important but only with respect to value for me. No point buying a cheap product that doesn't work. I'd pay good money for a Rinseless that cleans well and significantly reduces actual (not just the appearance of) marring. As it is, I still prefer a multi-stage foaming wash to minimize scratches. I use Rinseless primarily as a drying aid, (with no toppers included) and an interior wipe-down. Comprehensive, data-based tests like these are really valuable. They may not be perfect but are comparators and therefore genuinely valid between products. ❤️
Very good test, thank you for that! Im using ONR, a 1l botte is good for a year for me. OPT is a strange company, not so much test, people's or love it or hate, kind off like religion. One is for sure, if you will get in most likely you will stick. Got opti seal and work great wit ONR. Just week ago power clean gets delivered to my doors, and i think again a very good stuff, but a bit over priced. Btw, are you planning to test power clean from Optimum?
First of all: really thourough and well thought-out test! Then, what I personally found very interesting that you seem to have found a correlation between "dirt release" capabilities and cleaning power. Could it not just be that the products which seemed to perform well in the "dirt release" test just didn`t have that much dirt in the towels from the getgo (because they don't clean well)?
so with the dirt release test I took a new MF cloth (cut in pieces) and dragged it once out of the barrel of the wheel to place a print of dirt on it. did that 12 times. then put the squares into the solution of the rinseless and swirled it for 10 seconds with a spoon. then removed. So I didnt use each of the little pieces to clean anything as such. it would be interesting to do the test more times though.
I like RW's for interiors, QD's, drying aid. They can eliminate a few products. I limit them to those functions only. I will occasionally do a RW for the entire vehicle only if it's lightly dirty. No way in hell will I attempt it when the car is very dirty, although some say it can be done if done carefully. I've tried most and I really like DIY RW. Opinions will vary. User preference.
Carpro ECH20 never made the test but would you still recommend it. I regularly use it as a quick detailer and waterless wash but like the top 3 in the test. I may switch to one of these . Great test & brilliant content 👌🏽
Really impressive for onr coming 3rd in cleaning power. I have an old onr (v5 in my country came only recenlty) and I don`t think has any cleaning power. I was thinking of Feynlab, do you think I should go for onr again? Rrw also came now
Where the marring came from is from the wash process was done incorrectly when using the US style rinse less, you are to prespray the vehicle with the 256:1 solution let it dwell a few minutes and then take your wash media sponge similar to the one you used and dip it the bucket and squeeze it to barely dripping then with straight line low to no pressure swipes then dry. That will increase cleaning power for the encapsulation to do its job and the sponge removes the dirt and then when you put it in the bucket and squeeze it out it will release the dirt.
user error :) sorry im gonna just speak direct and to the point. Its this simple. If the marring indeed comes from the fact its imperative to presoak, its imperative to let that dwell. its imperative to dip the sponge in the bucket and squeeze it just a bit. The technical expertise that worked out all this is imperative must be very clever. But your method cannot be imperative or it would be THE NUMBER ONE imperative thing for the brands to write set of instructions to do what you just said or else get marring. The fact no one has might mean its not as imperative as you think and theres a lot of industry BS out there. Ive done 12 rinseless washes on a row on my car. One involved a presoak. My car is not all mar'd up. so its not that imperative.
John, look into a rinseless wash called Eco Wash by Owners Pride. It’s a “higher” dilution rinseless, and would be a great addition to your next rinseless test. 😂 Along with Detail Co Nemesis, it’s actually quite good.
I don't like P&S Absolute much. I dilute it as for drying aid and clay lube. Koch Chemie Rrw is expensive here in the U.S. since it is an imported product. I have been using ONR and will continue to use it. Thanks for the in-depth reviews.
I think RRW is made in the US for the US market, then released ROW afterwards. I watched SEMA last year on RUclips at their stand - that's when they dropped GSFx the Christmas scented (Spiced apple) snowfoam- It wasn't available in Europe specifically Germany and Europe until December/ January. Only the US and Canada had access. I think there's a Koch Chemie division/blender in USA.
I literally just used Feynlab RW v3 on my car yesterday and you literally can "see the ckean" while using it, plus the dirt in my rinse bucket was VERY noticeable❗️ I use the 2BM system AND pre-treating with all my RW's, sans if I use 1 bucket w/ 5 mf towels thrown in aka Garry Dean method📣 I don't have a RUclips channel but my current count is 9 RW's, I need to get down to pure ckean and enhanced RW's🤷♂️
@@NoobCannon1234 arguably his own product marketing is a little over the top, and like an infomercial, but the proof is in the product. Hence, a good objective review is much needed. I have his 8-year coating on my car. It was indeed very user friendly to apply. Interestingly, Pan did not respond, unlike all my other questions, when I asked how the coating can be removed (3000 grit or polishing). Guess I'll have to do my own testing to find out.
im not sure how valid that marr test is. we used fe2o3 and water and 40 swipes. I think the slurry might be too much for these products to handle. then cant disolve the solid fe2o3. the ones with less marring all seemed to leave stuff with the possible exception of DIY. But yer its a limitation really of what I can test.
@@ForensicDetailing the rinseless method and protection from marring is very sensitive to pressure and wash media. I'm not fully up to speed on your test setup; substrate type, "wash media" type, etc. I'm wondering if a more valid test would be to just use a folded up microfiber using "dirty" wash solution (equivalent to what you would gather into the bucket from a typical contact wash) and normal hand pressure (weight of hand with no extra force). I will say this, using proper methods with the appropriate prewash on an actual vehicle: none of the top brands have produced any marring in my usage. I think this test is asking a bit too much from a rinseless wash.
Good video - interesting point of note; it only seems to be the UK, either via choice and/or law, that hides a competitors product in a brands comparison - the rest of the world, especially America, will absolutely lead with naming their competitors and saying how they're better than them by comparison. Car adverts are a massive example, they even say which competitor car to compare against.
interesting point about law, but isnt there still things about slander or defamation if one company says something that can be proven to be factually incorrect or misleading about another company? Either way people should really have a moral compass that guides them. problem is all the brands what to be influencers and influencers want to be brands. the industry is really in danger of imploding if social media is not used with some responsibility.
@@ForensicDetailing I agree, not everyone 'deserves' a platform, some people will preach with 110% conviction, on something they do or do not know to be true. As for the brands, yes, defamation/slander isn't allowed, so they have to have tested something to be demonstrative about their claims. The other side they can use, is select info, so, things like this happen - "looking at the new Honda xyz? Consider Toyota abc, it scores "X" in "y" test and costs y instead of z - they go on, but you get the idea.
Funny enough, Rrw works great for me in the mornings when it's not too warm and hero works better in the afternoon when it is, mind you, this is in Merida, Mexico where cold is around 20c and warm is in the 30s. Also, Rrw seems to leave some spots that requires a second pass with a dry towel while hero just seems to evaporate.
I've noticed that too, it seems like most rinse-less washes prefer cooler temperatures despite being ok to use in the sunshine panel by panel. I end up with smears from what I think is over tempered polymers- easily wipes off though....in cool temperatures 🌡 😎
really interesting. because some of these products are around 90% water in that bottle when you buy them. Which means that 1:256 standard is actually not high concentration. so if I put 20ml in a 10,000ml solution of water. only 2ml of that 20 ml is active ingredient, the rest would be water. So you imagine that 2ml to 10,018ml water yields a ratio of 1:5009 concentration. the products might need some water to be stable or whatever reason. But it suggests to me at least there is a lot of scale to actually provide a much higher concentration of rinseless. In the same way lots of car soaps are around 1:250 nowadays, but we know in the UK if you take out all the water you can get upto around 1:2000. If this is all true then we are paying a high price for a lot of water in these products.
Clearly a lot of effort went into the making of the vlog but it’s lacking one crucial point for me, a chart of your findings. Whilst the findings are clearly explained some others may put a a different emphasis on some of the tests and having a chart would allow us to come to our own conclusions/choice. A very interesting test and I wouldn’t even had a clue where to start. Thank you.
Can't wait to not be able to try the Koch Chemie in Australia because when it finally arrives 6+ months after the rest of the world gets it, it will be $50+ for a litre, not the bargain it is in the UK ($25 AUD equivalent) ONR is almost the only one to buy down here, P&S is ok price too but everything else is just too expensive to justify when ONR does it just as good or better and is cheaper
Thanks, Jon! I'm approaching my tenth year using ONR exclusively. I was surprised to see it rank so high! Dr. G said whatever ONR may leave behind, will not interfere with wax, sealant or even coating application. He said you could go right to Gloss Coat after using ONR. 😮 I haven't tested that yet, but I will on the new beater I just bought. I really like and use their entire range, especially since they upgraded Hyper Compound. I haven't tried their new cleaner wax (as I still have a bottle of GPS), but I expect it to allow me to not re up my 3D polishes, which are the only non Opt products I regularly use. Hey, I'm 48 as well, since 8/15!
truly appreciate jon doing "forensics" on them, so far i can only see videos of people wipe the panels and tell people how they feel and decide which is best and rank them, i can always tell those tests are inaccurate at best and at worst bias.
yer its very difficult with this type of product. Its very much like comparing a car shampoo. so we attempted to do some sort of tests in this video some were quite useful, some flawed but I think with the winning product theres a huge gap in the price per litre to everything and the performance seems solid with it.
would've been nice with some kind of overview at the end, like a table summarizing the findings. Browsing through a 1 hour video with no chapters to compare the products is very frustrating. An idea for a comparison would be rinseless wash vs APC. How do they stack up against dust residue and more oily/organic residue? I have a feeling that rinseless wash only works against dust whereas APC is more effective against oil/organic residue.
that test required some like emulsifying quality in order to break down the film that holds the dirt simm togther. The top strip we used them neat. the middle strip 5% pir. the bottem strip at manufacturer ratios. And we weights the scoring 3x the rank for the bottem. 2x for middle 1x for neat. there was some method to this madness but Im not sure how reliable the test is. But for sure. Carbon Coll and Feyn lab have the strongest power to remove the dirt film. followed by ONR which was a surprise. Armour and DIY didnt touch the dirt simm but aced the dirt release test
@@ForensicDetailing Yeh, perhaps it was just too much of a torture test for most. If we came up against something like the dirt sim on an actual car we'd 100% be pre-washing anyway.
![Twenty One Pilots - The Line (from Arcane Season 2) [Official Audio]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/XCz7WUotXs8/mqdefault.jpg)
48:28 1st KC RRW: value 4, cleaning 4, dirt release 4.5, user experience 3.5, mar reduction 3, usage 5/5/4
42:42 2nd Carbon Collective Evovle: val 4, clean 4, DR 3.5, user 3.5, MR 3, usage 3/3/4
39:08 3rd ONR: val 4.5, clean 4.5, DR 2.5, user 2.5, MR 3.5, usage 5/5/4
34:38 4th Feynlab Pure: val 4, clean 5, DR 4.5, user 2.5, MR 3, usage 5/3/3
30:24 5th Gyeon Eco Wash: val 2, clean 2, DR 4, user 3, MR 4.5, usage 5/5/4
26:25 6th Wolfgang Uber: val 2.5, clean 4, DR 1, user 3.5, MR 3.5, usage 5/5/4
22:41 7/8th ADS Hero: val 1, clean 1.5, DR 5, user 4.5, MR 3, usage 2/5/5
18:05 7/8th Labo Idrosave: val 2.5, clean 2.5, DR 2, user 4.5, MR 5, usage 5/4/3
13:23 9th P&S Absolute: val 4, clean 2, DR 1, user 5, MR 3, usage 5/3/3
10:13 10th McKee's: val 3, clean 2, DR 3, user 2.5, MR 3, usage 5/5/4
6:16 11th DIY Detail: val 1, clean 1, DR 5, user 2.5, MR 4, usage 5/3/3
3:12 12th Autoglym: val 1, clean 3, DR 1.5, user 2, MR 3, usage 5/4/2
if you can edit and add timestamps I love you long time! and make sticky post
This counts as community service 🎉
@@ForensicDetailing done!
And I just bought Feynlab Pure and Gyeon Eco Wash thanks to this video. My plan is to pre-treat with Feynlab (superior cleaning power), then contact wash with DIY Detail (good dirt release and mar reduction), then use Gyeon as my drying aid (mar reduction plus added SiO2 protection). While Labo Idrosave has a slightly higher mar reduction and better water beading, the Gyeon Ecowash also says it can be used as a waterless wash at 1:10 dilution (vs Labo's 1:100 recommended dilution for water less)
@@TheBreakfastLover❤lov this approach, I am copying it
Appreciate all the time and work that went into the making of this vlog, thanks Jon !!!
This is what I expect from the channel. I trust the results over most others who clearly give positive reviews so they’ll continue to be brand friendly and receive free products. I’ve tried a few as sometimes the hype is hard to ignore. I’ve found Mckees, P&S, DIY, and Armour to be underwhelming. So I continue to stick with ONR and the sponge.
For me, marring reduction is the most important factor as I pre-wash with Bilt-Hamber Touchless (so cleaning power is less important), and I use a modified Gary Dean method (so dirt release is also less important). So based on that I'll probably try Labocosmetica and Gyeon Ecowash next. But if I'm using my Legacy Sponge, then it's DIY Rinseless due to the superior dirt release and mar reduction (DIY is the best at Mar Reduction without leaving any residue behind). And Feynlab seems to be the best overall for cleaning power and dirt release.
Thank you so much for this test. Convincingly the most comprehensive test I’ve seen to date of rinse-less washes. You’ve really given us viewers the ability to hone in on the individual areas/strengths that we’re looking for in a rinse-less wash to help us make a decision. Excellent work, again.
This what Jon does best at, his scientific approach is what convinces me that Jon is the best in the industry, No one does it better full stop.
Once again, an interesting test. A gem for the detailing purists who like more info than just excited and hyped people who use products. Stay with us forever. 😁
Def need the spreadsheet of this sir. Would like to remove the value factor and just solely grade on the washing power and slickness. Need to know!
I guess I can make my own spreadsheet w your scores. But amazing test. Thank you so much for doing this extensive test! Been waiting for weeks for it !
Yes, that would be so useful for a few reasons.
1, price per use is very important to me but being in a different country, I have to calculate my own prices.
2, some factors are definitely worth testing for some, but not for me. Like how clean they leave the wash media doesn't matter to me since I use multiple towels rather than putting them back into the bucket of solution.
You read my mind!
Google Sheets is great for that, so long as the sharer can hide their gmail.
@@themikeroberts Exactly!
1st KC RRW: value 4, cleaning 4, dirt release 4.5, user experience 3.5, mar reduction 3, usage 5/5/4
2nd Carbon Collective Evovle: val 4, clean 4, DR 3.5, user 3.5, MR 3, usage 3/3/4
3rd ONR: val 4.5, clean 4.5, DR 2.5, user 2.5, MR 3.5, usage 5/5/4
4th Feynlab Pure: val 4, clean 5, DR 4.5, user 2.5, MR 3, usage 5/3/3
5th Gyeon Eco Wash: val 2, clean 2, DR 4, user 3, MR 4.5, usage 5/5/4
6th Wolfgang Uber: val 2.5, clean 4, DR 1, user 3.5, MR 3.5, usage 5/5/4
7th ADS Hero: val 1, clean 1.5, DR 5, user 4.5, MR 3, usage 2/5/5
8th Labo Idrosave: val 2.5, clean 2.5, DR 2, user 4.5, MR 5, usage 5/4/3
9th P&S Absolute: val 4, clean 2, DR 1, user 5, MR 3, usage 5/3/3
10th McKee's: val 3, clean 2, DR 3, user 2.5, MR 3, usage 5/5/4
11th DIY Detail: val 1, clean 1, DR 5, user 2.5, MR 4, usage 5/3/3
12th Autoglym: val 1, clean 3, DR 1.5, user 2, MR 3, usage 5/4/2
Been really looking forward to this review and it didn't disappoint. Currently using 4 RW's ONR, P&S , DIY and from last week Koch RRW. Each has its own virtues as you have pointed out. ONR has been a must have for me for ages, moving forward it still will be. But will continue to keep the Koch while it remains at this price. Its an excellent product. You smashed another one Jon. Cheers!
Just a fascinating watch. I'm not really that much of a car guy and only started taking an interest in detailing over the last month or so. Loving your work, even if I don't follow all of it. The passion, integrity and commitment to your videos are a breath of fresh air.
Awesome stuff. Been waiting for this release
A good detailed test. For the people who have used Rinseless washes a fair bit, its fairly safe to assume that they can all be used to cover the typical cleaning bases and are far more versatile than regular car shampoos, but as you have seen, some are better than others at certain things.
Polymer washes are really good at cleaning glass, so much so I don’t need a glass cleaner any more.
Feynlab Pure Rinseless really is incredibly good at deep cleaning. As you have thought, it can be used as a regular bucket shampoo if you wanted. The benefit of this method is how very free rinsing it is. For this reason, it’s great for assessing water behaviour after a wash as it doesn’t leave anything behind, it leaves a very ‘pure’ surface. Also, due to its cleaning capability, it can be used at 1:500 at no problem at all. Finally, one of its best uses is as an initial polish wipe, particularly on soft paint. Due to its cleaning ability and as it doesn’t leave anything behind (Feynlab are very proud of this), it can be used as a panel wipe, which is safer than typical panel wipes due to the increased lubrication. This is a godsend on pain like Honda or soft Porsche black paint. The Carbon Collective seems to be able to be used in this way too, as can the new Garage Therapy rinseless wash.
I know you said that smell isn’t important to you, but if you are using the rinseless wash as your interior cleaner, if it smells nice, it adds a nice smell to the car after use, which is better than a stinky smell!
I always have 2 different rinseless washes to hand; Feynlab for its cleaning power and panel wipe ability and a polymer rinseless wash that tends to be better on glass, interiors and as a clay lube. The Koch Chemie would be ideal for this at that price.
I have to agree with most of your extensive list of points. I actually bought the KC Rinseless prior to seeing this video, but having seen what the Feynlab V3 has to offer. I'll be making a beeline for this product very soon.. I actually like the fact that it semi-foams. It is also great to see that the 'OG' Rinseless, ONR can still box with these newcomers. Fantastic test!
I pre treat my car with bilt hamber touchless and rinse down with a hose. Then I fill a bucket with ONR and use an electric sprayer to pre treat the car with ONR from the bucket, then do my contact clean with an ultra soft black sponge. Cleans well and dries nicely with no water spots.
Very similar process as me. After the rinse of touch less, pre rinse with onr and one towel soaked in onr is enough to safely remove the very little residual dirt that's left. Dry with spray sealant and mf. One capful of onr in a gallon + 3 towels is enough to clean three ceramic coated cars - one towel per car
@@motiOn732what spray sealant do you use?
@@HemanshuNarsana right now p&s. Works well
Not quite a "rinseless" wash then.
@@nsw72 you don't rinse the ONR
I still use ONR as a clay lube with my clay cloth. It’s so versatile
Epic for cleaning windows
I keep going back to ONR V5 and Koch RRW. Wolfgang Uber was the very first RW I used. It’s also a favorite of mine. I’ve also tried but didn’t care for Absolute, Hero, DIY V1-V2, and just ordered Garry’s deans infinite detail juice will see how that one turns out.
Jon, thanks for the exhaustive testing on these products. You were very consistent with your scoring criteria. Well done. Cheers.
Been using ONR on and off for close to 10 years. More recently used Feynlab for a "panel wipe" pre coating type wash etc. Both really good products for the respective task. ONR in a bucket for glass cleaning around the house, interior of the car etc is also great. That Koch is now on the list though, really hard to beat that price..
Thank you for test! Very surprised at the low cleaning power of DIY and Hero.
Good stuff thanks ! I'll be going for the Optimum No Rinse myself personally. Amazing dedication to testing as always :)
Great comparison video, reminds me of the old days. I didn’t realise there were so many rinseless washes out there as I always use ONR or McKees. Just bought Garage Therapy’s to try and initial impressions are pretty impressive. Pity it’s not in the test, bigger pity there was a falling out!
Hell of a session well done.
I have already replaced my traditional Fairy Liquid & bath sponge with.
Autoglym Polar and now moved to Bilt hamber
Touch less
Auto wash
QD
Surfex
Traceless
Korrosol
& Wheel cleaner.
I just wanna clean car....
Please stop infuencing me.
:)
Enjoyed your prezentation
Cheers
I've been looking forward to this shootout! Thanks for conducting this thorough test and review of these products Jon. There are so many new ones that have come out over the past two years, it's literally MIND BOGGLING! It will give you headache if you go on the internet and try to determine which one is the best because there are thousands of reviews of rinseless washes on social media/RUclips now! Your extensive testing and review really help to determine what products are worth buying or passing up. There are far too many ZONKERS out there or just a copy of another rinseless wash. Rinseless wash seems to be the new "buzzword" in detailing at the moment, just like Graphene was a few years ago. Can't wait to see what the next new "buzzword" will be next time. Take care Jon.
Excellent video. I have used ONR for a good few years now and feel I will continue to do so. Although might now try Koch when it is available. Use my ONR for cleaning the car during the summer when it is just dusty and a top up was before shows and events etc. Still do the full works when the car is properly dirty. Also use ONR to wipe down my bike after use and cleaning the windows on the house very useful product!
Only bit I quite didn't follow was the marring test. Was the panel already marred and you were looking for a reduction?
My Biggest want for my rinseless wash is trying to keep my paint as swirl free as possible. Will be interesting to know if the feel of slickness has any real world effect on the paint.
Best test in 2024. Thank you very match😊😊😊
I prefer the ONR, but I want to buy Koch chemie.
Excellent work! I rotate between Absolute, RRW and Hero (just mixed my first batch but haven’t used). I like them all. I use ONR mixed in Distilled water for my Bissle wet! Bob mop / Vacuum-works great and is cheap!
Onr is such a great product, im glad the testing showed the same.
Thanks for another fantastic video have been waiting for this one. Legend.
great work Forensic, really enjoyed this one, outside of the hype and marketing that exists in the rinse-less market, really nice.
I tested a couple of these myself but what i did was put some dirt and a cup and mixed it up then timed how long it took for the dirt to pile onto the botton. P&S was much faster than ONR, DIY v2, and Nemesis. Since i use a grit gaurd the ability to pull dirt down is very important to me.
Great work. The best detailing comparisons on YT
Kudos for the obvious amount of thought and effort (not to mention expense) involved in this, very useful, comparison Jon. Don't criticize or do yourself down for not using some laboratory test technique either. You compare products based on real-world usage, which is how we use them.
I noted on your other post that the GT version has had some good comments, though I don't expect you to go through all of that again to include it...not for a few years, anyway.😊
Interesting results. From a price point, it’s interesting that the brand that’s marketed to the DIY’er isn’t necessarily at the DIy price point for whatever reason. The same with their gold standard polish £30 for just under half litre bottle. That’s £20 more a litre than Rupes.
The most popular version of DIY Detail Rinse Less Wash is the gallon. The 473ml bottle sells very little by comparison.
As for DIY Detail Gold Standard Polish, when used as instructed you will only need 1 473ml bottle to replace 2L of the Rupes polish. Cost per use and cost of purchasing are 2 different things.
Recently used ONR on the only 2 white PVC double glazed windows I can get to. Worked very well and the glass buffed off as good or better than my ordinary glass cleaner. ONR is what I had so not saying something else wouldn't have done an equally good job. For me if something works no point in making a potential mistake with anything else. At least, not until the bottle is empty. LOL.
Thanks for all your work on this John. As someone new to the valeting industry value & cleaning power atm is my top concern. I went for Armour Hero based upon American reviews and so far it’s been ace but I’ve yet to compare, so will try the top 3 in descending order when I run out. I like the concept of rinseless to cover so many uses for exterior and interior cleaning especially as a beginner . Thank you again 🙂👍🏼
A brilliant informative detailed and very honest test jon.Well done
I don't know what DIY is thinking, same as Pan. Both products pretty much double the price of ONR. I just bought 32oz of Absolute to try and paid $22 Canadian. DIY costs that for 16oz. I think Geyon new SiO rinse less will be a hit. I'll defininatly try that, price is good too!!
it might not be a case of what they are thinking. It may well be the case that some brands cannot sell you a litre of rinseless for what you payed for absolute. its may not be financially viable. P&S have the advantage of buying raws and blending them which means they can compete on price. The active ingredient levels in these products are very low. I would guess that chemical cost of a litre of this stuff is way less than a pound or maybe even a dollar.
I wonder if buying the top 3-5 and mixing a custom frankenbucket may be the way to nirvana..
We need to convince Bilt Hamber to come out with a rinseless!
their QD at 1:20 can be used for a no rinse wash. But its not really a rinseless and its not competative price wise at that ratio compared to these. But yer would be nice if they had a dedicated rinseless
@@ForensicDetailing Yeh no way I can be using QD at 1 : 20.
great content, john. thx from the other side; we use these a ton- for a bunch of things. its a rabbit hole, but a serious conversation for everyone prepping for a show. you are the standard in which all other testers are compared. your worst are my worst, and your best are my best (save for the ones I never heard of). even your rankings are in the same order. you give points of usability for instructions; I think a list of ingredients is more important. this is definitely rhe case when shopping in a store and holding the 2 products in your hand. I know what I am buying with the ingredients, and as long as I know what they are, then I can use them, uh, not as intended. but when needed.
some companies do not include ratios for use as other things like clay lube because they sell a dedicated product for that.
I did do some SDS stalking. Even though its not an ingredients list as such some SDS seems complete with virtually every component listed with % ranges. Other list nothing on the SDS.
Great video Jon , i am going to try this rinseless wash on my own car and was not sure which to go for but now Koch Chemie seems to be the no 1 choice .
Great video with comparison details. Much appreciated! Love my ONR! 😂
Jon, incredible ! The only product would have liked to see in the test is - Ultima Waterless /Rinseless - I’ve mentioned it before. I think it’s a sleeper - not well promoted like the American products / I thing Ultima is a German brand. Also make a great interior conditioner.
Brilliant work Jon 👍👍👍 i have p&s diy Wolfgang ultima and only use them as a drying aid /clay lube/ QD…. Drying aid is my main use for slickness when towelling the car down with ultima being the slickest so far for me leaving my cars paint slippier than a slippy thing🤣🤣🤣 and in my head I just think the dirt finds it that bit harder to stick to it…even if it’s not the case.
I will be trying the fen labs next in a foamer on my cars shuts as it’s a pet hate for me using the jet wash on them and the extra care of making sure I don’t soak the interior 🤣🤣 as my aim isn’t what it use to be🤣
Thanks for the comprehensive video Jon. Interesting to hear your comments re the ones with SI02 added. That would be a mark down for me as my car is ceramic coated and these rinseless wash characteristics would mask the proper coating characteristics. I would be only concerned that it didn’t add marring as opposed to it reducing marring. Horses for courses though! They would be good for a badly scratched car.
Big plus with ONR that im not sure you can safely say with the others is the ability to wash in direct sunlight without any issue
That's a great effort doing all this Jon, I've recently purchased the ONR v5 mainly as a clay lube but may try a rinseless for the first time 🤔 but not a chance am I paying £30+ quid for a red sponge!! thanks again for all your time and effort 👌👏👏👏👏
Most important for me is the cleaning capability. In the end it is the main reason why you’re washing your car. From my point of view I would argue that the feynlab is the winner in this video. Going to try it soon!
could be mate. its very different. but to some it might feel a bit more soapy than a lot of the others. it does seem to have strong cleaning power even at low ratio.
@ as long as it’s safe to not rinse afterwards I’m interested to try it. I can’t get used to the polymer feel of ONR. The polymer ones feel counterintuitive to use on dirt if you’re used to a traditional soap wash.
Thanks for another great video Jon, I have found that the ability release dirt actually being most important for me. I am not sure how you are evaluating cleaning power, as practically speaking as long as it encapsulates the dirt it will be easy to remove with the sponge, so the releasing power is critical to the overall cleaning process. Did you evaluate encapsulating ability of the products?
Just used P&S as I was needing some before this test came out. Did t have an issue mixing and I think all these will be ‘fine’ of a light dirt which is all I use them for. Deftly try some of these others. Fen labs was interesting as I found their products sadly lacking for the price before.
“I could wash my Underpants in this stuff” 🤣🤣🤣
😂😂😂
I have used dyi detail v1 and v2, ONR I’m still getting through my v4 bottle, and Wolfgang. I threw out my bottle of Wolfgang after it stained my drying towels. But generally can tell much differences between onr and dyi detail when washing with a sponge. I’ll definitely give Koch a try, cheers mate
DYI V2 there is no difference with V1 did i heard from a C6 installer. Had to do with supply issues. I know Yvan says its a rumour but hey, he is an excellent salesman. ;) Good product still tho!👌🏼
Great Video Jon i bet the Boys and Girls over the Pond will say everything to discredit your views , but i must admit my Favourite from your Lists of RW are Feynlab V3 , Labocosmetica and Geyon as they leave something behind is what I’m looking for in a RW 🇬🇧
does feynlab leave stuff behind? you cannot trust comments sections on you tube nowadays they are riddled with burner accounts.
Feynlab doesn’t leave anything behind on the surface.
@@ForensicDetailingnormally it leaves nothing behind indeed.
Feynlab V3 definitely leaves something behind as it gets slicker and the shine gets better over a couple of times 🇬🇧
Thanks
Stayed out of the comment section before watching this, was expecting more spice if I’m honest, early days maybe.
Have used Rrw a couple of times now and like it, Uk pricing is also good and hoped it would do well.
Great vid Jon
you da man! :) thx mate you been a star in the comments for along time.
Awesome job! 🎉
I have used ONR, ONR with Wax (the green stuff not the blue) and most recently I have been using Wolfsgang Uber with SiO2 since all my cars are ceramic coated. I'd like to see a version of the "enhanced" ones and I would also like to see how the AMMO NYC frothe compares, though his is not the same as these rinesless. Good video, thanks!
Great testing as usual from you! Thanks for all the effort!
The star chart is useful!
But with all of your tests, I think a chart showing the scores for all the products would be useful - especially to compare just the tests that matter personally to a person.
Great point
Very interesting video. I have a lot of these. And I’ve said before you started the tests that Labo is my favorite user experience followed by Absolute. They’re just so slick. And I had a feeling labo was the safest for my paint. I do want to try Koch next
Koch RRW is pretty good. It’s nothing spectacular compared to the others though.
Thanks for all the thought you put in this. If I crunched the numbers I would remove the marring test and the dry buff as this over weighted towards products that left something behind. As you admit this may be a pro or con based on your use case for using the product. Also, I think you should mention bulk pricing as this is so important to you. DIY for example is 50 GBP for 3.78L which would probably put it near the top on value. You just need to share with your friends…..
I think most people would never use more than a liter of rinseless wash (256 liters of solution at the common dillution) before it potentially would go bad from being so old so I think just using the price of a liter is reasonable.
bulk could be good but yer but was some odd balls with no bulk option.
@@themikeroberts3.78l outsell 473ml bottles by a large margin. 3.78 or 5l are by far the most popular buying options for DIY Detail Rinse Less Wash
I recall when it first came out (ONR) i maybe wrong, but you could add it to your normal shampoo, and it would help with dirt release along with its water softening feature
@@MotorFest-k2v yes, that was a thing that was promoted. If you have very hard water, it is something you could still do and may help with slickness,dirt release/encapsulation and mar reduction.
@roscopervis I wonder what John thinks, and maybe he could test it out with all them rinseless products, another forensic details video 🙂
yer the problem was as yvan said it kills the suds in the shampoo. I dont think you need to mix with shampoo its like use rinseless or shampoo. the moment you use them both then you have to rinse so might as well be one of the other.
@@ForensicDetailing deffo , nail on the head (forgot that it kills the suds), so yeah one or the other
This is an aspect that consider most with rinseless washes. To my mind it would worth mixing rinseless with (neutral/ light) apc or rinseless with shampoo. My problem is dust, we have much of it and I think it would be beneficial something that ecapsulates dust +cleans as a prewash or helps lubrication + water softening as a shampoo.
Thx for the video Jon. Interesting results.
I was able to buy the DIY Detail V1 Rinseless Wash in a 128 fl oz size for about $59 CAD. They now have a V2 for $69 CAD and have stopped producing the V1. I suppose they don't likely sell it in that size in UK however. I was previously using Griot's Garage 10939 Rinseless (64oz) which was $23 CAD (now $30) and I noticed very little difference in performance, however it was 140:1 instead of 256:1.
important to work out cost per wash. and the absense of a ratio on the label makes it harder to cross compare. but thats an example of a big difference in ratios which would have a large bearing on real cost.
Supply issues made them produce the V2 idd. Hence other manufacturer, different blurry color. Yvan says its a rumour, but a C6 installer told me this. 🤷🏻♂️ Yvan is an excellent salesman so thats that. 😁 But good product nonetheless. Same with the sponges and the pads now made at uro fiber.
@@NoFixwe stopped making V1 because we released V2. We have had supply shortages because we are growing too fast. We switched our foam manufacturing to Buff and Shine because Lake Country couldn’t keep pace with our growth.
We sell more 3.78l bottles of DIY Detail Rinse Less Wash than we do 473ml bottles. Our distributors definitely sell the gallons in the Uk.
I used ONR v1 today however i cheated by double prewashing and rinsing first then used it still saved time though rather than 2BM
Thank you for this interesting video Jon.
I'm very skeptical of these, and would never wash my car without a pressure washer, snow foam, etc.
I can see why there would be a market for them, not everyone has a driveway, or access to a hosepipe and pressure washer, but I would be very worried about swirling, and personally would never use one.
Each to their own though.
When i use them, i do prewash with BH and a pressure washer first, though. Only time i don't is if its gotten a very light layer of dust etc (i.e its been sitting unused for a week etc). I would say wash technique is the biggest factor for marring though.
@@UnlimitedStone Thank you for the reply, and sharing your experience.
I'm not sure if there is a point, to using a rinseless wash, as a shampoo though ?
If you're going to do a pre-wash, and use a pressure washer, why not just use a shampoo ?
There are some great shampoo brands, and they are very cheap, especially compared to any of these products.
Maybe I'm missing something, but I can't see the point of using one of these instead of a shampoo, if you have all of the facilities to do a proper wash anyway ?
I can understand using one if you don't have the equipment or facilities.
Definitely agree that technique is a big factor in reducing swirling or marring, absolutely.
@@DjNikGnashersPeople say they're a lot faster than a regular wash because you're not walking around the car with your foam cannon, switching to a rinse and walking around again, switching to shampoo and walking around again, switching to rinse and walking around again, switching to drying and walking around again.
Instead it can be walking around to rinse once, then you rinseless wash and dry a panel before moving to the next panel. It may also leave less liquid to dry if you have non-hydrophobic paint that's clinging to water but that's a rare situation for detailing enthusiasts.
@@themikeroberts Yes I get the whole time saving thing matey, for people who don't want to get all the equipment out, or more specifically, those who don't have the equipment to do a proper wash (or can't as they live in a flat etc), I think I said that in my previous comment.
I don't understand why anyone would use a rinseless *instead of a shampoo* if they already have the equipment and have already used it to pre wash, snow foam, and rinse anyway. As I said in my previous comment sir.
The only use (I can see) for a rinseless wash, is for people who either don't have a driveway, or live in a flat etc, and can't wash a car properly, or those who are not into detailing and just want the easiest & quickest method, (and are not bothered about swirling or marring their paint).
I honestly don't know anyone with a reasonably decent car who would use rinseless washing as their only product, anyone with even the slightest pride in their paintwork would use pre wash (citrus for example), then snow foam, to remove 98% of the dirt, before any sort of contact wash. And as shampoo is so cheap compared to rinseless products, why would anyone use it as a final contact stage shampoo alternative ?
Hopefully that makes sense, as it seems my comment is being misunderstood.
Have a good evening my friend.
You should try it after a prewash, I’ve always been of the same opinion until this year as I decided to give it a proper go, its a much better option in the summer at least as you can dry as you go, you can’t do that with soap, it’s possible that this will become my year round go to.
I was not impressed with DIY Detail. Glad to see your test agrees with that. Great test and great video.
Im pretty impressed with it. I decanted it and put it in my litre bottle with the tolco. But I wont be buying it again because its just too expensive and that really is the case for quite a few of them. I want to be sub one pound ideally on cost per wash.
Great job. Clearly a lot of work went in to this. Thanks. For the ones that leave something behind, would that inhibit a ceramic spray sealant's ability to bond well, reducing durability? Thanks, again!
potentially yes mate. although non bonding material can probably be removed with just a wipe down of panel wipe.
Turtle Wax Waterless wash at 1:100 at a cost of £10 per litre. if you buy it in bulk you can get it down to £3.30 per litre, for a 10 Litre bucket it only costs me 33p a wash. I use it with a Rag Company Ultra Safe Sponge and it works great IMO. I mixed up a version with a tiny amount of Turtle Wax Pure Wash shampoo added and this works even better.
based on 10 pound per litres. you would use 150 ml for 15,000 so that would give cost per wash about 1.50. Thats roughly average in this test where we dont do a bulk conversion. thats twice the cost per wash of the winning product. thats a big takeaway for me. Huge variance in price which has proven to be typical in my of these comparisons.
👍🏾
I can get ONR for $35+\- a gallon in the USA. It’s made right here in my home state of Tennessee. It’s my go-to. But I tried Feynlab v2 at 1-4 in a foam cannon and very quickly cleaned a dirty camper home. Really impressed me with cleaning power but it was too foamy and streaky for regular use. V3 might be better. McKee’s, and Owner’s Pride eco wash were really good, but didn’t stand out enough to purchase again.
Would be interesting to see a marring test for different shampoos vs rinseless washes as rinseless products seem to boast having more lubrication than shampoo. I replaced shampoos with rinseless products years ago (I still pre-wash and rinse first before washing as usual) and would love to see a comparison of the two wash technologies if both used as a shampoo replacement.
You could have panel wiped the marring test panel to remove any protection to see the true results and if the ones you thought were just filling were doing so or actually added some protection.
Brilliant video though, I love it when a new long one pops up.
I’ve tried Uber and ONR, I found Uber really left residues in the bucket after a while it struggles to release dirt well as you’ve seen so went back to ONR. Will give Koch a go next I think.
No. The protection in labo bonds. Panel wipe wont remove it. So you just Introduce a variable that will alter results. At least with this test the results are the visible maring left simple using the products. That's viable. But flawed.
Awesome data for decision-making! I currently use McKee's.
I believe that each category needs a weighting factor, which likely would alter the rankings. Cleaning power, wash media dirt release, and minimal marring are more important than the others for me.
It would be interesting to see if mixing products would balance out the performance. 🤔
you can just ignore like the other catagories that are not relevent hopefully the little star guide. putting a weighting on it would just alter the value I place on a catagory which can never align with everyone. so the ability to just ignore the catagories which are not important i think is the best way forward.
I kind of agree. Id prefer to see a ranking with price excluded. It would be a better comparison on the actual chemicals, and performance.
@@ninetres187price is important but only with respect to value for me.
No point buying a cheap product that doesn't work. I'd pay good money for a Rinseless that cleans well and significantly reduces actual (not just the appearance of) marring.
As it is, I still prefer a multi-stage foaming wash to minimize scratches. I use Rinseless primarily as a drying aid, (with no toppers included) and an interior wipe-down.
Comprehensive, data-based tests like these are really valuable. They may not be perfect but are comparators and therefore genuinely valid between products. ❤️
Very good test, thank you for that! Im using ONR, a 1l botte is good for a year for me. OPT is a strange company, not so much test, people's or love it or hate, kind off like religion. One is for sure, if you will get in most likely you will stick. Got opti seal and work great wit ONR. Just week ago power clean gets delivered to my doors, and i think again a very good stuff, but a bit over priced. Btw, are you planning to test power clean from Optimum?
First of all: really thourough and well thought-out test!
Then, what I personally found very interesting that you seem to have found a correlation between "dirt release" capabilities and cleaning power. Could it not just be that the products which seemed to perform well in the "dirt release" test just didn`t have that much dirt in the towels from the getgo (because they don't clean well)?
so with the dirt release test I took a new MF cloth (cut in pieces) and dragged it once out of the barrel of the wheel to place a print of dirt on it. did that 12 times. then put the squares into the solution of the rinseless and swirled it for 10 seconds with a spoon. then removed. So I didnt use each of the little pieces to clean anything as such. it would be interesting to do the test more times though.
Always had the same feeling for RRW, good to know.
I like RW's for interiors, QD's, drying aid. They can eliminate a few products. I limit them to those functions only. I will occasionally do a RW for the entire vehicle only if it's lightly dirty. No way in hell will I attempt it when the car is very dirty, although some say it can be done if done carefully. I've tried most and I really like DIY RW. Opinions will vary. User preference.
Carpro ECH20 never made the test but would you still recommend it. I regularly use it as a quick detailer and waterless wash but like the top 3 in the test. I may switch to one of these .
Great test & brilliant content 👌🏽
Really impressive for onr coming 3rd in cleaning power. I have an old onr (v5 in my country came only recenlty) and I don`t think has any cleaning power.
I was thinking of Feynlab, do you think I should go for onr again?
Rrw also came now
Another top quality video Jon👍👍
Thanks for the continued effort.
Where the marring came from is from the wash process was done incorrectly when using the US style rinse less, you are to prespray the vehicle with the 256:1 solution let it dwell a few minutes and then take your wash media sponge similar to the one you used and dip it the bucket and squeeze it to barely dripping then with straight line low to no pressure swipes then dry. That will increase cleaning power for the encapsulation to do its job and the sponge removes the dirt and then when you put it in the bucket and squeeze it out it will release the dirt.
user error :) sorry im gonna just speak direct and to the point. Its this simple. If the marring indeed comes from the fact its imperative to presoak, its imperative to let that dwell. its imperative to dip the sponge in the bucket and squeeze it just a bit. The technical expertise that worked out all this is imperative must be very clever. But your method cannot be imperative or it would be THE NUMBER ONE imperative thing for the brands to write set of instructions to do what you just said or else get marring. The fact no one has might mean its not as imperative as you think and theres a lot of industry BS out there. Ive done 12 rinseless washes on a row on my car. One involved a presoak. My car is not all mar'd up. so its not that imperative.
What will a pre spray do to grit/sand?
@@LSD04 long as its low pressure, it will only improve safety as it encapsulates dirt and lubricates the surface to help slide it off
John, look into a rinseless wash called Eco Wash by Owners Pride. It’s a “higher” dilution rinseless, and would be a great addition to your next rinseless test. 😂 Along with Detail Co Nemesis, it’s actually quite good.
eco wash seems about 1:500. Thats raising the bar a bit but we have 1:1000 with that NXTgen znr.
I don't like P&S Absolute much. I dilute it as for drying aid and clay lube. Koch Chemie Rrw is expensive here in the U.S. since it is an imported product. I have been using ONR and will continue to use it. Thanks for the in-depth reviews.
In Poland RRW is not available. Strange
I wonder if its an EU thing. I dont think its available in germany either.
@@ForensicDetailingWhat a surprise. Probably you arę right. Maybe they do it for the countries with morę problems with water? What a pity
I think RRW is made in the US for the US market, then released ROW afterwards. I watched SEMA last year on RUclips at their stand - that's when they dropped GSFx the Christmas scented (Spiced apple) snowfoam- It wasn't available in Europe specifically Germany and Europe until December/ January. Only the US and Canada had access. I think there's a Koch Chemie division/blender in USA.
Which of these would be preferred for cleaning low/mid/high levels of dirt in an engine bay?
None but feynlab might be ok m8
I literally just used Feynlab RW v3 on my car yesterday and you literally can "see the ckean" while using it, plus the dirt in my rinse bucket was VERY noticeable❗️
I use the 2BM system AND pre-treating with all my RW's, sans if I use 1 bucket w/ 5 mf towels thrown in aka Garry Dean method📣
I don't have a RUclips channel but my current count is 9 RW's, I need to get down to pure ckean and enhanced RW's🤷♂️
Waiting on testing of Pan's Rinseless!
He would just cry and complain if jon said a single bad thing about it.
Its a shame but ive lost all respect for pan
@@NoobCannon1234 arguably his own product marketing is a little over the top, and like an infomercial, but the proof is in the product. Hence, a good objective review is much needed.
I have his 8-year coating on my car. It was indeed very user friendly to apply. Interestingly, Pan did not respond, unlike all my other questions, when I asked how the coating can be removed (3000 grit or polishing). Guess I'll have to do my own testing to find out.
Having the most respected of US products (DIY, Hero, P&S) really low in ranking, I suppose Pan`s rinseless will be average.
its interesting to see onr not acing the mar reduction considering so many love it for clay lube
appreciate all your work on all these shootouts
im not sure how valid that marr test is. we used fe2o3 and water and 40 swipes. I think the slurry might be too much for these products to handle. then cant disolve the solid fe2o3. the ones with less marring all seemed to leave stuff with the possible exception of DIY. But yer its a limitation really of what I can test.
@@ForensicDetailing the rinseless method and protection from marring is very sensitive to pressure and wash media. I'm not fully up to speed on your test setup; substrate type, "wash media" type, etc. I'm wondering if a more valid test would be to just use a folded up microfiber using "dirty" wash solution (equivalent to what you would gather into the bucket from a typical contact wash) and normal hand pressure (weight of hand with no extra force).
I will say this, using proper methods with the appropriate prewash on an actual vehicle: none of the top brands have produced any marring in my usage. I think this test is asking a bit too much from a rinseless wash.
Good video - interesting point of note; it only seems to be the UK, either via choice and/or law, that hides a competitors product in a brands comparison - the rest of the world, especially America, will absolutely lead with naming their competitors and saying how they're better than them by comparison. Car adverts are a massive example, they even say which competitor car to compare against.
interesting point about law, but isnt there still things about slander or defamation if one company says something that can be proven to be factually incorrect or misleading about another company? Either way people should really have a moral compass that guides them. problem is all the brands what to be influencers and influencers want to be brands. the industry is really in danger of imploding if social media is not used with some responsibility.
@@ForensicDetailing I agree, not everyone 'deserves' a platform, some people will preach with 110% conviction, on something they do or do not know to be true.
As for the brands, yes, defamation/slander isn't allowed, so they have to have tested something to be demonstrative about their claims.
The other side they can use, is select info, so, things like this happen - "looking at the new Honda xyz? Consider Toyota abc, it scores "X" in "y" test and costs y instead of z - they go on, but you get the idea.
Funny enough, Rrw works great for me in the mornings when it's not too warm and hero works better in the afternoon when it is, mind you, this is in Merida, Mexico where cold is around 20c and warm is in the 30s. Also, Rrw seems to leave some spots that requires a second pass with a dry towel while hero just seems to evaporate.
I've noticed that too, it seems like most rinse-less washes prefer cooler temperatures despite being ok to use in the sunshine panel by panel. I end up with smears from what I think is over tempered polymers- easily wipes off though....in cool temperatures 🌡 😎
Everyone so pleased to see the R C NESBIT jumper has returned 😂😂
Great test -
Hi Jon, I would love a test on NXTZEN ZNR. With a 1:1000 dilution it is 4-5 times cheaper for me than other rinseless in Australia.
really interesting. because some of these products are around 90% water in that bottle when you buy them. Which means that 1:256 standard is actually not high concentration. so if I put 20ml in a 10,000ml solution of water. only 2ml of that 20 ml is active ingredient, the rest would be water. So you imagine that 2ml to 10,018ml water yields a ratio of 1:5009 concentration. the products might need some water to be stable or whatever reason. But it suggests to me at least there is a lot of scale to actually provide a much higher concentration of rinseless. In the same way lots of car soaps are around 1:250 nowadays, but we know in the UK if you take out all the water you can get upto around 1:2000. If this is all true then we are paying a high price for a lot of water in these products.
Which would be the best if used only as a QD that didnt leave any protection behind?
Gyeon
Clearly a lot of effort went into the making of the vlog but it’s lacking one crucial point for me, a chart of your findings. Whilst the findings are clearly explained some others may put a a different emphasis on some of the tests and having a chart would allow us to come to our own conclusions/choice. A very interesting test and I wouldn’t even had a clue where to start. Thank you.
Will definitely be buying the carbon collective at £19.99 a litre , 🇬🇧
Awesome Jon
Can't wait to not be able to try the Koch Chemie in Australia because when it finally arrives 6+ months after the rest of the world gets it, it will be $50+ for a litre, not the bargain it is in the UK ($25 AUD equivalent) ONR is almost the only one to buy down here, P&S is ok price too but everything else is just too expensive to justify when ONR does it just as good or better and is cheaper
Thanks, Jon!
I'm approaching my tenth year using ONR exclusively.
I was surprised to see it rank so high!
Dr. G said whatever ONR may leave behind, will not interfere with wax, sealant or even coating application. He said you could go right to Gloss Coat after using ONR. 😮 I haven't tested that yet, but I will on the new beater I just bought.
I really like and use their entire range, especially since they upgraded Hyper Compound. I haven't tried their new cleaner wax (as I still have a bottle of GPS), but I expect it to allow me to not re up my 3D polishes, which are the only non Opt products I regularly use.
Hey, I'm 48 as well, since 8/15!
thanks Dan appreciate it mate
any reason to suspect the RRW couldnt be used on the interior surfaces like any other rinseless? Leather plastics screens etc.?
it would probably be fine mate but not tested
Bilt Hamber Rinseless!!! Please give it us!!!!
truly appreciate jon doing "forensics" on them, so far i can only see videos of people wipe the panels and tell people how they feel and decide which is best and rank them, i can always tell those tests are inaccurate at best and at worst bias.
yer its very difficult with this type of product. Its very much like comparing a car shampoo. so we attempted to do some sort of tests in this video some were quite useful, some flawed but I think with the winning product theres a huge gap in the price per litre to everything and the performance seems solid with it.
Bardzo ciekawy film. Pozdrawiam 👍❤️😁
would've been nice with some kind of overview at the end, like a table summarizing the findings. Browsing through a 1 hour video with no chapters to compare the products is very frustrating.
An idea for a comparison would be rinseless wash vs APC. How do they stack up against dust residue and more oily/organic residue? I have a feeling that rinseless wash only works against dust whereas APC is more effective against oil/organic residue.
yer I think some more grapphics like you say at the end would have been good.
Surprised to see DIY score so poorly on the cleaning test. I'm interested to try to the Koch product, I wonder if it's safe on interiors?
that test required some like emulsifying quality in order to break down the film that holds the dirt simm togther. The top strip we used them neat. the middle strip 5% pir. the bottem strip at manufacturer ratios. And we weights the scoring 3x the rank for the bottem. 2x for middle 1x for neat. there was some method to this madness but Im not sure how reliable the test is. But for sure. Carbon Coll and Feyn lab have the strongest power to remove the dirt film. followed by ONR which was a surprise. Armour and DIY didnt touch the dirt simm but aced the dirt release test
@@ForensicDetailing Yeh, perhaps it was just too much of a torture test for most. If we came up against something like the dirt sim on an actual car we'd 100% be pre-washing anyway.