I've used this technique for clearing partial supers but then left the super over winter for 'space' which I now know is not needed. Your other videos have given me confidence that it's OK to have a single brood box chock full of bees. I think I had the novice fear of lack of space / swarm early in the spring season so kept a brood and half over winter.
Really glad that its useful info for you Chris. Both of your assumptions are totally logical and can see why its recommended but all I can talk about is my own experience and packed boxes of bees do well and brood and a half is a pain! Best of luck getting your bees through winter :D
Good explanation as ever! Thanks. Will re-think why exactly I put my supers under the brood box next year. I've only recently done it this year so am appallingly late, but very glad that I remembered to remove the queen excluders in time for last night's big drop in temperature!
I have never heard Nadir before but I am from the states. What I did for the first time this year to clear a partial super is put a top wooden crown board between two hive bodies with the partial on top. The small oval opening in the middle I partially cover it with a small board and scratch any capped honey. A week later they have taken the honey down. Saw this trick on "John the Beeman" and it worked for me. I did have one queen move up and started laying eggs in the partial super so you may want to leave the queen excluder on. Thanks for another different method that makes sense.
Being a very new beekeeper I find it fascinating, love to read everyone's opinions and variations. I asked the same question to a lady few weeks ago. Her words were "don't faff about" after October treatment, remove apivar..then brood box, no Qx...wet super.. crown board...insulation... roof. Brood and half next year.
@@BlackMountainHoney no just partially filled. If it's a good practice I'll keep it in mind for future reference. I wasn't sure with it being late October.
I do nadir and the reason is this: it offers additional storage for winter food and when the new season starts - let’s say end March - and the queen lays in the top box, NOT the super, which can then be switched to the top, above a QX. As for brood-and-half, don’t get me started. :-) I’m on polys, btw.
My only concern with this system is you are really inviting interest from vermin by placing honey underneath the cluster. It means the bees have to move down to consume the stores first. It definitely works but id prefer to remove the honey and feed on a single brood box. I ont think the bees will move honey from a capped super up in Autumn though. They will just cluster around it and use it as the first food source, which still leaves it dry come autumn.
Hi Lawrence. Could i use this way instead of a Demaree to allow for a new box of frames in the brood area yet still allowing the unborn bees to emerge. This would also mean no honey stored in dark comb that would happen with the Demaree system . Would the bees still take any necter up and clean out the bottom box?
I'm pretty sure that i wrote you a long comment.. how to put the brood and capped food in the WARM top and the not capped frames under. And how l keep that empty box under all winter because we don't have hive beetles or long winters. It's done just before winter.. and no top ventilation. 9 frames over 8 frames.. space for air circulation for humiditi. Bees don't consum much food if you keep them in the WARM top over winter. It's works great on wooden LR boxes. It's the last thing l do before winter
@@researcherAmateur I appreciate the info, as always Danny. The term Nadir I have never heard. I will probably close off most of my top ventilation. Funny, the Horizontal Hives, they sealed the vents completely shut, so whats that say you know.
@@CastleHives yeah, they will always propolise if they can get there. I didn't know this has a name.. It's better when you see it on a video. Much better than my comments. Don't take it wrong, it's just a joke
To clean up my stickies when downsizing hives in autumn before freezing and packing away for storage I currently put a QX on top of the sticky, turn the box upside down and put back on the hive - usually on top for ease of removal. The super is upside down so the now downward facing cells discourage refilling and drain a bit easier. Need the QX to stop the frames from falling out when invert. It only take a few days for cleaning. A couple times I have left for a few weeks and then found a few smart bees starting to refill as they tend to do if the cells right way up. Might try the nadir system as I have seen the brood box get cleaned out really well if somehow a queen sets up home above the QX.
Nice vid Lawrence. Do you have any paynes poly floors? They have lugs in the corners which I think make nadiring a shallow difficult. How do you get round it...if you do? Cheers
I have 1 Paynes Poly floor and the lugs really frustrate me. No benefit to them and just lock you into the system. You could just hack them out or build an underfloor entrance to suit the oversized national boxes. I wouldnt worry too much. You can easily manage without nadiring if needs be.
How about this for a reason for nadiring honey super over winter: the cluster moves upwards so you need to remove the queen excluder to allow her to go with them (if she gets caught below she could freeze to death) but you don't want your queen laying in the honey super so you put it below?
I'm asking the same question: why not use a queen excluder between the nadired super and the brood chamber for the week or two they are drying it out? I hate it when a queen decides to lay in my super. Would there be anything wrong with that?
Never actually tried that but no reason that it shouldn't work. The brood nest isn't expanding at that time of year so I'd say you would be unlucky for the queen to lay but I reckon the manipulation would work just as well with a QX there for a week or so while they clear it out
Hey man. I'm in a weird situation. I've 3 problem hives at the moment, 2 of which superceded a few weeks ago. They have everything needed for winter except there's no eggs or brood. The other had a newly mated queen but now is in the same situation as the other two. I gave each of the hives a frame of eggs and they haven't drawn out any Queen cells so I assume they have queens. As it is late in the year I'm unsure of what to do. Is it possible that the Queen has stopped laying temporarily and I should just let it play out or should I cut my losses and combine the 3 hives with other hives? Sorry as this has nothing to do with your video but I watch all your stuff and consider your advice to be very good. I'm in connemara Ireland, native Irish bees and assume that we have very similar weather conditions. Thanks
haha I'm also baffled by this. was told religiously to do it by local beekeepers I'm learning from, then asked myself why wouldn't the bees put it below themselves?
I do this manipulation in late August/early september and its only on or a week. I suppose could add a QX. It wouldnt hurt but I dont find it necessary
@@BlackMountainHoney so the queen will most likely not migrate down this late in the year. I see. Still I belive a QX would be nice to add just so you can know the queen is in the broodbox when you go to remove the super. I would have gone with the QX if i where to do it. I do not have bees yet, but been sucking up knowledge for some years. Still I think I go with a couple of insulated layenshives for my first collonies. This because I live in cold cold bad weather Norway.
Hi Laurence, what are your thoughts on plastic foundation frames, they seem popular in the US providing you use a sponge roller to apply a thin layer of wax on top? If you can get the bees to build on it, would it be a great advantage for brood frames and super frames alike?
Definitely has some advantages but also drawbacks. I know some big bee farmers invested in lots and then quickly went back to wax. Major issue is what to do if AFB is found. Can't burn them so need go dispose of as hazardous waste which is £££
You need a good honey flow and they don't tend to do a good job building all oer them if you have them in the bottom box, fantastically practical in all other ways I won't go back to the old system.
I still don't understand if the Nadired box is a super then why not have a queen excluder under the brood box? That way you know the queen won't be down at the bottom.
Not sure I follow? If you added a QX underneath you could make the bees cluster away from the queen. My view is the nadired super shouldn't be left there over winter and definitely not with a QX
@@BlackMountainHoney I'm asking the same question: I hate it when a queen decides to lay in my super. What would be wrong using your queen excluder between the nadired super and the brood chamber for the week or 2 the bees are moving the nectar?
If I have a wet super that needs cleaning, I put it above the brood box with a tiny hole between the two boxes. The bees don’t see the top box as part of the hive and so clean it out. A week later, just whip off the super, dry, and into storage.
That definitely works with a wet extracted super but not sure they would move frames of uncapped honey down (or clean them if you place it above like that). They will just see it as space for stores
We use this tehnic on 2 box LR hives and carnies. They winter on 9 frames and "storage" 8 empty frames under. If you have capped honey with the open nectar you have to scratch the capping. Then they will move it up
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I've used this technique for clearing partial supers but then left the super over winter for 'space' which I now know is not needed. Your other videos have given me confidence that it's OK to have a single brood box chock full of bees. I think I had the novice fear of lack of space / swarm early in the spring season so kept a brood and half over winter.
Really glad that its useful info for you Chris. Both of your assumptions are totally logical and can see why its recommended but all I can talk about is my own experience and packed boxes of bees do well and brood and a half is a pain! Best of luck getting your bees through winter :D
Now I know what to do with those last few, partially filled nectar frames. Very helpful. Thanks
Cheers Joseph. Happy beekeeping to you!
Good explanation as ever! Thanks. Will re-think why exactly I put my supers under the brood box next year. I've only recently done it this year so am appallingly late, but very glad that I remembered to remove the queen excluders in time for last night's big drop in temperature!
I have never heard Nadir before but I am from the states. What I did for the first time this year to clear a partial super is put a top wooden crown board between two hive bodies with the partial on top. The small oval opening in the middle I partially cover it with a small board and scratch any capped honey. A week later they have taken the honey down. Saw this trick on "John the Beeman" and it worked for me. I did have one queen move up and started laying eggs in the partial super so you may want to leave the queen excluder on. Thanks for another different method that makes sense.
Being a very new beekeeper I find it fascinating, love to read everyone's opinions and variations.
I asked the same question to a lady few weeks ago.
Her words were "don't faff about" after October treatment, remove apivar..then brood box, no Qx...wet super.. crown board...insulation... roof.
Brood and half next year.
Dont faff about - then proceeds to faff about :D What's with the wet super? Just leave them on a single brood??
@@BlackMountainHoney she had grouped all the partially capped/nectar frames together, into one super, onto one hive.
I don't know the reasoning.
@@russdean6598 Ah gotcha. I thought you mean wet as in extracted supers.
@@BlackMountainHoney no just partially filled. If it's a good practice I'll keep it in mind for future reference.
I wasn't sure with it being late October.
@@russdean6598 Not for me. I remove supers end of August/early Sept and condense to single brood
Another great video man, hope you are well :)
Will the queen go back down and start laying in the Nadir'd super?
I do nadir and the reason is this: it offers additional storage for winter food and when the new season starts - let’s say end March - and the queen lays in the top box, NOT the super, which can then be switched to the top, above a QX. As for brood-and-half, don’t get me started. :-) I’m on polys, btw.
The bees do, as you say, move honey up. So the nadired super is dry come March.
My only concern with this system is you are really inviting interest from vermin by placing honey underneath the cluster. It means the bees have to move down to consume the stores first. It definitely works but id prefer to remove the honey and feed on a single brood box. I ont think the bees will move honey from a capped super up in Autumn though. They will just cluster around it and use it as the first food source, which still leaves it dry come autumn.
@@BlackMountainHoney Yeah. Good points. You’ve made me rethink it.
Hi Lawrence. Could i use this way instead of a Demaree to allow for a new box of frames in the brood area yet still allowing the unborn bees to emerge. This would also mean no honey stored in dark comb that would happen with the
Demaree system . Would the bees still take any necter up and clean out the bottom box?
Interesting. . Never heard of this. Thanks for sharing this information.
Cheers CH! Useful technique for clearing the dregs! 😀
I'm pretty sure that i wrote you a long comment.. how to put the brood and capped food in the WARM top and the not capped frames under. And how l keep that empty box under all winter because we don't have hive beetles or long winters. It's done just before winter.. and no top ventilation. 9 frames over 8 frames.. space for air circulation for humiditi. Bees don't consum much food if you keep them in the WARM top over winter.
It's works great on wooden LR boxes. It's the last thing l do before winter
@@researcherAmateur I appreciate the info, as always Danny. The term Nadir I have never heard. I will probably close off most of my top ventilation. Funny, the Horizontal Hives, they sealed the vents completely shut, so whats that say you know.
@@CastleHives yeah, they will always propolise if they can get there. I didn't know this has a name.. It's better when you see it on a video. Much better than my comments. Don't take it wrong, it's just a joke
@@researcherAmateur oh yeah,.i know. It's all good.
To clean up my stickies when downsizing hives in autumn before freezing and packing away for storage I
currently put a QX on top of the sticky, turn the box upside down and put back on the hive - usually on top for ease of removal. The super is upside down so the now downward facing cells discourage refilling and drain a bit easier. Need the QX to stop the frames from falling out when invert. It only take a few days for cleaning. A couple times I have left for a few weeks and then found a few smart bees starting to refill as they tend to do if the cells right way up.
Might try the nadir system as I have seen the brood box get cleaned out really well if somehow a queen sets up home above the QX.
Definitely worth a try for a quick clean up
Nice vid Lawrence. Do you have any paynes poly floors? They have lugs in the corners which I think make nadiring a shallow difficult. How do you get round it...if you do? Cheers
I have 1 Paynes Poly floor and the lugs really frustrate me. No benefit to them and just lock you into the system. You could just hack them out or build an underfloor entrance to suit the oversized national boxes. I wouldnt worry too much. You can easily manage without nadiring if needs be.
@@BlackMountainHoney agreed 👍
How about this for a reason for nadiring honey super over winter: the cluster moves upwards so you need to remove the queen excluder to allow her to go with them (if she gets caught below she could freeze to death) but you don't want your queen laying in the honey super so you put it below?
I'm asking the same question: why not use a queen excluder between the nadired super and the brood chamber for the week or two they are drying it out? I hate it when a queen decides to lay in my super. Would there be anything wrong with that?
Never actually tried that but no reason that it shouldn't work. The brood nest isn't expanding at that time of year so I'd say you would be unlucky for the queen to lay but I reckon the manipulation would work just as well with a QX there for a week or so while they clear it out
I’m new so don’t jump on me but I think it’s a way of getting stores into the brood box for over winter instead of using syrup ?
I'd say that's a perfectly good reason to nadir :D
Hey man. I'm in a weird situation. I've 3 problem hives at the moment, 2 of which superceded a few weeks ago. They have everything needed for winter except there's no eggs or brood. The other had a newly mated queen but now is in the same situation as the other two. I gave each of the hives a frame of eggs and they haven't drawn out any Queen cells so I assume they have queens. As it is late in the year I'm unsure of what to do. Is it possible that the Queen has stopped laying temporarily and I should just let it play out or should I cut my losses and combine the 3 hives with other hives? Sorry as this has nothing to do with your video but I watch all your stuff and consider your advice to be very good. I'm in connemara Ireland, native Irish bees and assume that we have very similar weather conditions. Thanks
haha I'm also baffled by this. was told religiously to do it by local beekeepers I'm learning from, then asked myself why wouldn't the bees put it below themselves?
Why not just leave the super as is?
Will they not cap it over and use over winter?
Should you put a queen excluder over the nadired super to keep the queen up inn the broodbox?
Why or why not?
I do this manipulation in late August/early september and its only on or a week. I suppose could add a QX. It wouldnt hurt but I dont find it necessary
@@BlackMountainHoney so the queen will most likely not migrate down this late in the year. I see. Still I belive a QX would be nice to add just so you can know the queen is in the broodbox when you go to remove the super.
I would have gone with the QX if i where to do it.
I do not have bees yet, but been sucking up knowledge for some years. Still I think I go with a couple of insulated layenshives for my first collonies. This because I live in cold cold bad weather Norway.
Hi Laurence, what are your thoughts on plastic foundation frames, they seem popular in the US providing you use a sponge roller to apply a thin layer of wax on top? If you can get the bees to build on it, would it be a great advantage for brood frames and super frames alike?
Definitely has some advantages but also drawbacks. I know some big bee farmers invested in lots and then quickly went back to wax. Major issue is what to do if AFB is found. Can't burn them so need go dispose of as hazardous waste which is £££
@@BlackMountainHoney Fair point, sounds like a false economy
You need a good honey flow and they don't tend to do a good job building all oer them if you have them in the bottom box, fantastically practical in all other ways I won't go back to the old system.
You can metagrobalise afb spores with hot caustic soda solution, very dangerous of course, so is driving.
Is it illegal to burn plastic in UK?
I still don't understand if the Nadired box is a super then why not have a queen excluder under the brood box? That way you know the queen won't be down at the bottom.
Not sure I follow? If you added a QX underneath you could make the bees cluster away from the queen. My view is the nadired super shouldn't be left there over winter and definitely not with a QX
@@BlackMountainHoney I'm asking the same question: I hate it when a queen decides to lay in my super. What would be wrong using your queen excluder between the nadired super and the brood chamber for the week or 2 the bees are moving the nectar?
Great video.
Glad you enjoyed it :D
Will this encourage robbing as the stores are below entrance?
How late in the year can you Nadir a Super?
No later than September really in the UK
If I have a wet super that needs cleaning, I put it above the brood box with a tiny hole between the two boxes. The bees don’t see the top box as part of the hive and so clean it out. A week later, just whip off the super, dry, and into storage.
That definitely works with a wet extracted super but not sure they would move frames of uncapped honey down (or clean them if you place it above like that). They will just see it as space for stores
We use this tehnic on 2 box LR hives and carnies. They winter on 9 frames and "storage" 8 empty frames under. If you have capped honey with the open nectar you have to scratch the capping. Then they will move it up
Aren’t the Queen will lay eggs down the super?
Not if you get the timing right. You can add a QX if concerned but I've never had the queen lay down there at that time of the year
Thank you for the response!
When you Nadir a super, do we have to remove the queen excluder? Help 😇
Nope.
should be like this
Roof
Crownboard
QX (or can be removed as well)
Brood box
Partially filled uncapped super
Floor
Qx between crown and brood? What would that do? Sorry, just learning 🤓
@@castunes22 just somewhere to put it to save taking it out every year
What if her majesty comes down and atarts to lay eggs? I have an egg laying monster 😰